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“Caroline would have been FINE without those pesky voters”

As the NYTimes shakes its tiny fists and wails in rage over the fact that Caroline Kennedy didn’t get s Senate appointment, it is simultaneously revealing its true nature and why it is bleeding so much in revenue as the years go by.  It’s not that it’s a liberal paper, although they are certainly more left leaning than the Washington Post.  And it’s not that it’s too difficult for readers to absorb. The paper seems to be written at the right level.

The problem is that there is a complete disconnect between the editors and its target audience.  Readers aren’t stupid or less literate.  But they are a lot more savvy these days and can tell when they’re being condescended to.  Gail Collins goes out of her way to blame everyone in her editorial this morning and take some ungracious swipes at Kirsten Gillibrand because Gillibrand is a real politician who attempts to get votes at rallies where she might influence a voter or two.  Horrors!  In the refined world of the New York Times, a politician should *never* have to court the voters.  Her family name and the policies she was born with should be sufficient bona fides for the voters who should listen to their betters and vote for her.   After all, wasn’t that what the last primary season was all about?  The powers that be, a group to which no one WE know belongs, shall pick the winner and voters will go along with it.  All that primary campaigning was just window dressing to make voters feel like they still have choices.

Read Collins’ column.  It almost reads as parody.  She asks, “…in a state chock-full of distinguished residents, it was so hard to scrounge up Hillary’s replacement?”  Indeed, NY is full to bursting with distinguished residents.  Unfortunately for Collins, Lawrence O’Donnell and a bunch of other name dropping snobs, what Paterson was looking for was a person who actually liked politics, the people in the state and winning elections.

I think we are reaching a tipping point here.  What we now see is that we have here a class of people who are shaping opinion and running the country who hold the rest of us in utter contempt.  To them, the actualities of living, working, raising children, acquiring healthcare, well that’s all theoretical.  They will discuss it amongst themselves and think up pretty remedies that will not inconvenience them in the least.  They will pat themselves on the back for all the a priori thought experiments and pass their results down to us as fiats.  The vast unwashed masses who use our hands and minds to actually earn a living, the ones who find themselves on the posteriori end of these fiats, will have to do the best we can. And if any of us decide that we want to succeed in politics so that we can make an actual difference, we can be sure we will be derided for getting our hands dirty at state fairs, rallies and parades where we may have to mix with the common  man.

They were being truthful when they said their hatred of Hillary had nothing to do with sexism.  Of course it didn’t.  They don’t think of themselves as sexists.  Well, ok, so they indulged a little in order to get Barack Obama elected but that’s just because they wanted him to win.  It wasn’t sexism.  No, the reason Hillary was the old Tracy Flick, while Kirsten Gillibrand is the new Tracy Flick, is because she actually was one of those overachieving ambitious common people who wanted the votes of other commoners.  Like they matter.  What Barack Obama’s election has shown us is that the only people who matter are the ones you flatter and try to emulate.  So, I imagine Obama went out of his way to behave like the snobs at the Times and the Washington Post.  What Obama’s election tells us is that snobbery works while Hillary was insufficiently deferential.

Of course, now he has to deal with the rank and file WH press corps and it’s giving him fits.  But I’m sure that as soon as he figures out that he has to make some of them feel like they are part of some exclusive little club, they’ll come around.  He’s already making some inroads there even if there is some initial whining.  Give him time and some quail and they’ll be as right as rain and eating out of his hands.

Gov. David Paterson and Senator Gillibrand are going to have to kiss up to the powers that be if they want to get elected.  It’s just that they *thought* those powers were, um, the people.  But the only people that matter are the ones that own the mastheads.

Meanwhile, in Ms Kennedy Regrets, The New Yorker’s Larissa McFarquhar wrote what seems like the definitive explanation for Caroline’s demise: she realized she didn’t have it in her even though the courtiers around her were smitten with Camelot nostalgia.  Thank you, Caroline.  You may go now.

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247 Responses

  1. So Sarah might have been right in a round about, run end kind of way.

    Could it be a class issue?

  2. I think we are reaching a tipping point here.
    ************
    The tipping point was passed when the “kewl” people threw Hillary under the primary bus. We have gone from the glorification of ignorance by Bush to Obama who denegrates experience and competence. There was a small chance that experience and competence could have kept this country from tipping and going over the cliff. With Obama, the chances are 0.

  3. bitter alert above. still can’t get over puma’s!

  4. The tr0ll used the word Hussein! R@cist!!!!!

  5. iohs_2008, What the hell are you talking about? Did you even read this? And you are proud of running people away from a political party rather than inclusion? For shame.

  6. Please don’t feed the trolls

  7. taggles> Yes, PUMAs are so irrelevant and funny that the tr0ll took the time out of its busy schedule fellating The Lightbringer to write to us. The tr0ll is condescension itself! We are so lucky to have it.

  8. To the now gone – and soon to be forgotten troll — you say getting kicked off My DD as though it were a bad thing.

    Anyone wants to see what happens when you have out of touch elites running things in isolation of the public, look no further than California. The democrats couldn’t even show people how only a handful of Republican extremists have driven the state to bankruptcy by refusing to raise taxes. That includes not being able to explain how deep cuts in social services and education equal TAXES.

    Sheesh. But that’s okay, they keep telling themselves on Facebook and the Internet that everything is fine. Until – of course – the layoff notice (complete with the often shorted last check) comes knocking for them. However, I’m sure they will willing accept that they no longer matter and simply commit ritual suicide prior to joining the great unwashed.

  9. Wow RD!

    What a magnum opus this post is.

    I’m currently sitting in a great bar here in Berlin.
    I’m seriously asking myself if The Conflience has not become even better ever since I left the homeland.

    PS: Still iPod-blogging btw.

  10. The strange thing is that Collins had some kind words for Hillary during the primary. She was somewhere between Krugman and Dowd. But this thing with HRH Princess Caroline – I just don’t understand it. What are these people seeing in her??!! It really is a repeat of Obama all over again, albeit on a much smaller scale. Kennedy is a woman of no public accomplishments who made a fool of herself as she tried to mingle with us commoners. What is this obsession with her at the expense of experienced politicians like Gillibrand? They object to her support of gun rights? And don’t give a crap that she’s for women’s rights and gay rights – including gay marriage – and has been a public servant of note? I just don’t get it! Somebody is living in an alternate universe here!!!

    I was very surprised to see Caroline’s marriage woes mentioned on the front page of AM New York, a minor daily paper (given out free as you get on the subway.) If they actually mentioned the marriage woes – then there’s clearly something to the rumor we’ve been seeing floating around the web about Caroline fooling around with NY Times publisher Arthur Sulzberger. Surely Collins has heard of these rumors – is she insane enough to be propping up Caroline as a saint knowing the possibility that she’s sleeping around with the papers publisher? If this scandal breaks – it will destroy the Times, which is already on the verge of bankruptcy. Wake up, you idiots at the NY Times!

  11. Arrr, I disagree with me clownish shipmate Myiq2xu! We should be feedin’ the trolls, arrr! Feedin’ the scurvy swabs to the bloody sharks, arrr!

    Aye, I know this not be Talk Like A Pirate Day, but we pirates be outlaws anyway, so bugger the rules, arrr! :mrgreen:

  12. Excellent points all RD. If you really want to frost your flakes, read what Lawrence O’Donnell had to say in the New Yorker. It is nothing but recycled tripe from those who believe entitlement should best be left for the cake distributors.

    Paterson has no comprehension of upstate New York, absolutely none, and has chosen someone better at representing cows than people,” Lawrence O’Donnell says. “What you have is the daughter of a lobbyist, instead of the daughter of a former President or the son of a former governor. This is the hack world producing the hack result that the hacks are happy with.

    The next time I hear O’Donnell braying, I’ll remember that jackasses live in close proximity to cows.

  13. Arrr, I seem to have got meself thrown inta the brig fer fergettin’ to modify the word tr0ll, arrr! :oops:

  14. The money quote from Larissa McF**kwad:

    Caroline Kennedy’s life has in many ways been indistinguishable from that of any other smart and reasonably diligent child raised on Fifth Avenue in the nineteen-sixties.

    Even us Californios know that NY’s Fifth Avenue ain’t exactly a low-rent district.

  15. DYB:

    Caroline = Camelot

    Most of the Obamafluffers in the media have a romanticized view of JFK

  16. oh, if only the Times would simply go bankrupt! The joy! btw, I was surfing around on google, and I found a book I’ve never heard of, written by Carl Bernstein’s ex-wife, and it is supposedly a thinly veiled autobiography about her failed marriage to him!
    It looks like a really great book, and I want to read it. It is called Heartburn and it is by Nora Ephron.
    Has anyone read it? Because I strongly dislike Carl Bernstein, I would really like to read this book!
    Btw, RD great post! Wow… Gail Collins. I think Gillibrand is probably going to be a superstar. I like her a lot all ready.

  17. myiq:

    what is so special about the Kennedy’s? I’ll never know.
    But then, I’m not a boomer. I always figured it was a generational thing.

  18. JFK is SO overrated–I suspect that much of the fond memories of him are related to grief over his assassination. I doubt he would be remembered as fondly had he died of natural causes.

  19. OH! And apparently there is a movie about it too! With Meryl Streep and Jack Nicolson, two of the best actress/actors EVER!
    *dies and goes to heaven*

  20. LI, on the NYT, they are supposedly paying 14.5% interest on the cash infusion by the Mexican phone magnate. This in addition to sellling a majority interest in their building and then leasing it back. The Gray Lady looks like she’s on a ventilator.

  21. littleisis, It IS a funny book. It was a bit of a hit when it came out and they made an amusing movie out of it too.

  22. To them, the actualities of living, working, raising children, acquiring healthcare, well that’s all theoretical.

    And I HATE it that the Democratic Party is just as controlled by those people as the Republican Party.

  23. I’m convinced JFK would be just another Pres if he served out his term. He got the US into a few bad situations in the short time he was in office.

    littleisis> FYI, Nora Ephron is not a friend of the Clintons.

    Obamafluffers want Hillary supporters to crawl out of their holes and get over it. Well, I think it’s time for Obamafluffers to crawl out of their holes and get over friggin’ JFK and Camelot. Even when it was – it wasn’t. And Caroline most certainly isn’t.

  24. LI, on the NYT, they are supposedly paying 14.5% interest on the cash infusion by the Mexican phone magnate. This in addition to sellling a majority interest in their building and then leasing it back. The Gray Lady looks like she’s on a ventilator.

    WHOO HOO! serves those pathetic, classist fools right!
    Karma is a b*tch, is what I always say!
    *points and laughs at the NYT*

    Omg, katiebird, this looks amazing! Leave it to super awesome Nicolson and Steep to take on these roles!

    People on Amazon were saying that the movie wasn’t as good as the book, and it never is, but apparently Bernstein filed a lawsuit against Nora for it, which cracks me the f*ck up!

  25. JFK narrowly won the 1960 election with some alleged fraud in Texas and Illinois. Despite all the talk about how he inspired the nation his poll ratings were not too hot and he was very worried about reelection.

    Imagine if James Dean hadn’t died young, but had grown old, fat and bald instead.

  26. FYI, Nora Ephron is not a friend of the Clintons.

    Who cares? It’s not a book about them. I am just thrilled that it is a funny book about her marriage to a journalist pot shot. And supposedly it is also revealing about the lame classist Climate in Washington. Is that right, KatieBird?

  27. heartburn is a terrific novel, plus it has recipes. and does he ever come off looking like a sleaze. i can’t watch him now without thinking of heartburn.

    “I think we are reaching a tipping point here. What we now see is that we have here a class of people who are shaping opinion and running the country who hold the rest of us in utter contempt. To them, the actualities of living, working, raising children, acquiring healthcare, well that’s all theoretical. They will discuss it amongst themselves and think up pretty remedies that will not inconvenience them in the least. They will pat themselves on the back for all the a priori thought experiments and pass their results down to us as fiats. The vast unwashed masses who use our hands and minds to actually earn a living, the ones who find themselves on the posteriori end of these fiats, will have to do the best we can. And if any of us decide that we want to succeed in politics so that we can make an actual difference, we can be sure we will be derided for getting our hands dirty at state fairs, rallies and parades where we may have to mix with the common man.”

    rd this is so important i had to repeat it. the elite who confer with each other, media members and pols who decide what the news is and present opinion as fact for the rest of us to ingest and regurgitate. caroline kennedy was completely qualified to replace senator clinton. but she was not experienced enough. the qualifications are quite minimal so that anyone mostly can qualify to do the job. but unless you know those that make the decisions for the rest of us, and unless you have a bazillion dollars or need your lips surgically removed from obama’s butt (i use his name now because he is the head of the dem party and no decisions will be made unless by him), you ain’t need apply. while the little people out here see experience as being a requirement of the job to do the important job of representing us, the media and the powerful pols don’t. i’m feeling sorry for caroline kennedy since it appears that this just might be the first time in her life that she is having reality pushed in her face. sorry, but i’m still glad she wasn’t annointed, uh, appointed. where is the political transparency we have been promised, or that every one is supposed to exhibit, with the reign of obama? why has the caroline kennedy story taken on this weird spin where they all come off looking silly? nothing in this story passes the straight face test to me.

  28. DYB, I know that Nora doesn’t like the Clintons but, that book came out just as I was going through my divorce and I was desperately looking for laughs. Sometimes you have to take them where they come. (Also, in those days I’d never HEARD of the Clinton’s so my affection for the novel predates this year’s HAKA)

  29. “Imagine if James Dean hadn’t died young, but had grown old, fat and bald instead.”

    Like Marlon Brando and Orson Welles? (I love the old “Match Game” and Welles is the answer of choice whenever somebody fat is needed.)

  30. I’m in moderation at 5:16.

  31. littleisis, I don’t remember the details. The only thing specific thing that stuck is that she says that she should have known her husband was having an affair when he started spending 2 hours every couple of nights going out to buy socks. My (ex) husband had a similar habit.

  32. JFK narrowly won the 1960 election with some alleged fraud in Texas and Illinois. Despite all the talk about how he inspired the nation his poll ratings were not too hot and he was very worried about reelection.

    Depending on who he ran against, he likely wouldn’t have won reelection. Then he would just be another ordinary president in the indexes of the history books.

  33. katiebird, on January 24th, 2009 at 5:18 pm Said:

    littleisis, I don’t remember the details. The only thing specific thing that stuck is that she says that she should have known her husband was having an affair when he started spending 2 hours every couple of nights going out to buy socks. My (ex) husband had a similar habit.

    LOL! Yeah, I so have to read this book! Sounds amazing!

  34. yeah, seriously, I would take this year’s haka at face value when evaluating Ephron. As soon as Obama screws up, we will probably be witnessing a lot more affection for the clintons than has been previously acknowledged.

  35. oh, and skip the peach pie. it didn’t work for me. and it’s hard to imagine how to make a situation funny when you are pregnant almost to delivery and finding out about your cheating man.

  36. Scruz:

    Don’t get ahead of yourself. If I were in a sad situation like that, I would probably have to make it funny to cope, because that’s the type of person I am.

    I’m sure when it was actually happening, there were few laughs involved. But a person has to laugh at something sometimes to make it through their problems.

  37. Another great bit of writing, RD. Agree with MABlue that The Confluence is getting better. I think we have grown into our feet.

  38. I’m voting for class issue. The media derided Jimmy Carter for being southern, and really despised Bill for being working class southern, aka trailer trash. Palin was despised for the same kind of reason – not southern, but clearly seen as trailer trash.

    As for the NY Times, there has been a lot of talk about Caroline and Arthur “Pinch” Sulzberger, publisher of the Times. These rumors have apparently been circulating in New York social circles for a year. If there is any truth to it there may be a personal reason the Times editorial expresses such outrage. People may think it is unfair to repeat this gossip, but at least it makes her seem less boring.

  39. I never read the book but I love the movie! Very quirky and Carly Simon songs. Nicholson was great as the wormy husband I’m sure Bernstein was. Streep was also great as the angsty Nora.

    And, I don’t think Caroline dropped out because she didn’t have it in her to do the job. I don’t think she wanted her personal life scrutinized and it seems she has good reason not to.

  40. katiebird, on January 24th, 2009 at 5:18 pm Said:

    littleisis, I don’t remember the details. The only thing specific thing that stuck is that she says that she should have known her husband was having an affair when he started spending 2 hours every couple of nights going out to buy socks. My (ex) husband had a similar habit.
    *************
    What kinda fun in two hours? My ex would head to the “Cowboy” bar Friday night and come home Monday night.

  41. When the media in this country stops behaving like a democracy, it’s time for a revolution. Even Orwell could see that tyranny in our times does not begin with kings, dictators, or even generals. It begins with the media and the flow of information.

    The Confluence is averaging 15 thousand daily hits? That’s a quiet chat by the fireplace everyday with enough people to fill Madison Square Garden. You guys rock.

    That is all. May check in late tonight.

  42. SHV:

    lol! Two hours…

  43. I’m having some trouble with all the JFK hate. I guess I’ll just lurk.

  44. Me. too, bboomer, My first political activity was ringing doorbells (in the sixth grade) for mr. Kennedy in my parochial school uniform. I guess the nuns figured that people would be less likely to slam the door in a child’s face.

  45. Wow, Lawrence O’Donnell is even more disgusting than I thought he was.
    Gillibrand doesn’t understand upstate NY but Caroline Kennedy does????
    Isn’t Gillibrand from Albany?
    Great post, riverdaugter. A scientist has no business being such a good writer-an embarrassment of riches!

  46. BB, I ignore the Kennedy hate. What I do focus on, however, is the NY Times hate because they are completely out of control with their so-called journalism.

    I think Carolyn just got sucked in somehow and the media took it the rest of the way.

  47. bostonboomer, on January 24th, 2009 at 6:04 pm Said:

    I’m having some trouble with all the JFK hate. I guess I’ll just lurk.
    ***********
    It’s probably an unavoidable consequence of the “Camelot” fiction pushed by Teddy White and Jackie after JFK’s death. I was in college, living in DC, during the Kennedy years and the best and the brightest weren’t looking so good in late ’63. The news media really protected JFK, very few people knew have medically impaired JFK was. I suspect RFK was much more influential in the WH than he is given credit for. Hopefully, someday, a real history of the Kennedy years will be written…it will be much more interesting than the current fiction and I think both Jack and Bobby will look better.

  48. If I remember correctly we had a revolution to get away from being taxed and not represented.
    The English upper class looked down on anyone in trade or that earned their livelihood.
    Americans were proud that we worked , we created wealth,and a better life for all. We were proud of our achievements and did not live on our ancestors name.
    Did this new American so called upper class forget were we came from?

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  49. Thanks Scrubs and Chatblu. I’ve been studying JFK pretty intensively in recent months, and I’m frankly offended. Was he perfect, no. But he made a real effort to break up the CIA/military control of our government, and he died because of that fight. He tried to do something about what Eisenhower recognized as a serious problem, but didn’t deal with at all. The fact that JFK’s daughter is nothing but a socialite isn’t really relevant to that. It hurts me to see my friends at TC hating on JFK. So I’ll be scarce here till it blows over.

    The Boston Globe has just had huge layoffs of newsroom staff and they are trying to figure out how to become more of a local news source. It sounds like they they the internet is the wave of the future. I think it’s a good thing. I don’t read the NYT op ed writers much anymore. The Gail Collins piece does read like a bad parody.

  50. BB – please don’t lurk too much. I really enjoy your posts.

  51. SHV,

    Much of the real history has been written. As I said, I’ve been reading a lot of the recent material on JFK. The Camelot stuff was always bullsh&t. Anyway, I’m done here. Lurk mode it is for me.

  52. BB,

    I worked as an archivist at the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library. This is just collective memory backlash. He was not perfect but it was society who made him, so why the hate I am not sure. His legacy is very important to the identity of MA. Rose Kennedy’s dad was the mayor of Boston, so much history there.

  53. SHV,

    Much of the real history has been written. As I said, I’ve been reading a lot of the recent material on JFK. The Camelot stuff was always bullsh&t. Anyway, I’m done here. Lurk mode it is for me
    **********
    I’ll have to get some of the “new” material.
    a lot of the anti-Kennedy movement began with the “Atwater” Republicans.

  54. {{BostonBoomer}}

  55. Caroline stupidly spent all the currency of Camelot on Obama. She gladly gave it away, and Obama the Taker, took it of course, ran away with it. And wasn’t she surprised to find that there was none left when she needed it for herself. So the Obamas cashed in on the shine of Camelot, and Caroline was left with the tarnished reputation. How fitting.

  56. Was something deleted? Because I don’t see any JFK hate.

    I see JFK taken off a pedestal and treated objectively.

  57. Heh

    I find it interesting that the people at the Times think that it is New Yorkers fault for not embracing someone who admits she did not do something as elemental to democracy as VOTING. Talk about transferrance. If Caroline is seriously interested in politics she should be required to prove that she can do the heavy lifting the times require. The last thing we need is another politician who votes present and blames all our problems on the masses(rather than take responsibilty for poor decision making made on their behalf).

  58. Verboten: That is so true. CK used the emotional connection to her father, to further the cause of BO, and there wasn’t anything left for her. But, she really does not have the talent to be a politician, especially if she has skeletons in her own closet that she doesn’t want to let into the public record.

  59. My problem with Caroline has little to do with Obama. There are people who I admire and respect who endorsed Obama(Clinton being one of them). My problem is Caroline. There are people fighting and dying for democracy and she couldn’t even be bothered to vote a good portion of the time? She didn’t seem to have positions on issues we have been discussing forever. I mean come on. If you are a Senator the people you are representing should have a right to know what your interests and which positions you will represent, since they are sending you there to represent them.

    The idea that anyone is entitled to a POSItTION that is meant to represent NYers without the approval of those same NYers is insane. It’s called a REPRESENTATIVE government for a reason.

  60. I like what Verbotin said!

    I don’t hate JFK. But I don’t understand what I see as Camelot worship. So many really do treat the Kennedy family as something holy. And the truth is that the Kennedy clan has been using the American public for its own selfishness and aggrandizement for decades. There are some good Kennedys, certainly. But the family and the name need to be taken down a few notches. The accomplished Kennedys (like RFK Jr.) should be supported because of their own individual accomplishments. And the ridiculous Kennedys, like Caroline – and for a long time now, Edward – need to be run out of town because all they do is take. And frankly – I ain’t giving anything away anymore!

  61. BostonBoomer:

    No hate, chikadeeta! I don’t “hate” JFK or the Kennedy’s. Heck, I don’t even hate Obama. (But I obviously don’t think he is anything like JFK). JFK did many great things for this country.
    I think JFK was/is overrated, yeah, but JackieO will always be one of my favorite First Ladies (she was very intelligent and complicated, and I think saying she was just a fashionista is selling her short), and RFK is one of the best Politicians that ever lived, in my opinion. I Looovvveee RFK, and if he hadn’t been killed, our history would be much different, and maybe better, even.
    I also think Camelot, like the real one, wasn’t so shiny as it’s made out to be, and JackieO regretted creating that myth.
    No hate over here, BB! Just honesty.

    *gives hugs and kisses*

  62. Hey! why am I in moderation?

  63. I’m not opening Mary Jo for discussion.

  64. Another fantastic post, RD. For reasons I suppose I will never understand, America has become a celebrity-obsessed nation. Journalists don’t care about reporting news anymore, unless that news is about someone “famous.” Caroline Kennedy is just a “brand,” in the same way that Obama is just a “brand.”

    Yes, we real people with real issues want to be represented by someone who isn’t a millionaire, or at least hasn’t forgotten what it’s like not to be a millionaire. I don’t know what it will be like with the new crop of Senators, but, before the election I remember reading that Russ Feingold was one of only two Senators who wasn’t a millionaire. You can also be certain that most of our Senators weren’t millionaires before arriving in the Senate.

    Thankfully, enough New Yorkers showed themselves to be capable of ignoring celebrity in favor of supporting workhorses. There may be hope for us yet.

  65. jfk set a tone for the country. and, at the time at least half of the country was receptive. it was for higher goals for this country to attain from airdrops into east berlin to keeping nuclear weapons out of cuba to a value placed in scienc and math in the schools.

    sure, there was complicity among the media and pols to hide his indiscretions and medical conditionsl. but, i do think the boomers have a nostalgia for the time period and the hope that we felt as youngsters. i think it is a generational thing where the youth don’t understand because their young lives didn’t hold some of the same innocence we had.

    i saw his nomination in person. i was a tween.

  66. The Kennedys don’t deserve deification OR demonization.

  67. BB: I think we have to separate JFK, the man and president, from Camelot the musical and fantasy. JFK the president did some good things and not so good things. The best thing he did was stare down the soviets over the Cuban Missile Crisis. We will never know how good a president he would have been because of his assassination. But the result of his death and dignified, dramatic funeral is that now he has become a celebrity martyr like James Dean, Marilyn Monroe and Diana, Princess of Wales, His memory has taken on a life of its own that dwarfs the actual person it represents.
    We can admire the man while being sick and tired of the Channel No.5 fantasy of the 60’s. After watching Mad Men, there’s no way in hell I’d want to go back there. I’m grateful that I was only a wee lass not even in kindergarten who still sucked my thumb. Childhood in the 60’s was fun and all I knew of the Kennedys was that there was a little girl named Caroline, a little boy named John-John and a pony named macaroni.

  68. I can remember when we all looked to the NYT as the bastion of truthfulness and first class reporting. Scotty Reston and Anna Quindlin occupied those pages and were must reads. MoDo replaced Quindlin – to our consternation – and the reporters since, Jason Blair, Janet Cooke, and Judy Miller in particular began the downward slide.

    Remember, this is the same paper who tried to out John McCain and the DC lobbyist while all the time there may have been another same such story right under their collective noses.

    The Times is in trouble as people will go anywhere they must to ferret out the truth. But when the truth is withheld, like they did back in 2004 elections, then credibility and justification for readers is left behind. No longer the paper of record, the Times has become just another rag publication. A ghost of its former self.

  69. I am in moderation. Help!

  70. Scruz:

    Well, yeah, I’m a young person, so I guess I don’t see what is so special about the Kennedy’s, despite the fact that I try to understand, and do feel for them because of all the tragedies they have endured. I guess, reading the books that I have about them that had information about them that wasn’t available to the public when you were young, I see them much differently.

    KatieBird:

    Well, I guess I understand. He is very sick and I don’t think he has much time left. Maybe I was being insensitive. *shrugs*

  71. The Kennedy family has sacrificed much over the years. The loss of both a son and daughter during WW ll, the assassinations of both JFK and RFK as well. However, to automatically assume that every Kennedy is born to lead is foolish.

    Caroline, had she stood in front of the voter to be judged, may have had a case to make. But simply granting her a seat in the Senate to make up for the wounds her family suffered is not reason enough. Nor would it be for anybody who bears a famous surname.

    The problem is that we have allowed the myth to take hold in place of our own fairy tale. Service requires more.

  72. Pat:

    I think the Times is being incredibly arrogant, but I’m afraid I don’t remember a time when they were “great.”

    I was two years old when Jeff Gerth made up his story about WhiteWater.

    I suppose, being a part of this generation, I have to contribute to making this country better by accepting that there were some good things in the past that I don’t see now.

  73. RD:
    put that down in writing!

  74. The Senate =
    Millionares club

  75. Daley delivered Illinois for Kennedy the “Chicago Way”. His record on Civil Rights is “complicated.” His associations (Sinatra, Giancana, etc.)were scandalous. His affairs (Marilyn Monroe, Judith Exner) were legendary and dangerous. Camelot was a myth created by Jackie after the fact.

    “Shortly after John F. Kennedy was assassinated on November 22, 1963, the former first lady was talking with a journalist. She described the years of her husband’s presidency (1960–63) as an American Camelot, a period of hope and optimism in U. S. history, and asked that his memory be preserved. She had shown fortitude (ability to deal with adversity or pain) and grace as she guided her family and the country through the president’s funeral and was one of America’s most beloved first ladies.”

    http://www.enotes.com/history-fact-finder/government-politics/why-kennedy-presidency-called-camelot

  76. One merely needs to visit the JFK Library outside of Boston to realize the depth of his legacy. It is amazing to see.

    What struck me as well as Jackie’s wedding dress is on display and her waistline must have been all of 16 inches!

    But it is impossible to finish up that tour without coming through that last corridor banked with tv sets and not feel the emotional tug. Very moving.

  77. littleisis: There used to be a saying: If it says so in the Times it must be true. That is how much integrity was associated with what was printed within those pages.

  78. If you’re interested in some tidbits from Mort Sahl on John and Robert Kennedy and others:

    http://www.maebrussell.com/Articles%20and%20Notes/Heartland%20excerpts.html

    pages 80-82. 85-86, 87-89, *116-19, 148-149, 153-55, 156-58, and more but that’s as far as I got.
    *about Jim Garrison and assasination of John Kennedy

  79. As everyone knows I just love my People Magazine! But it came today and the entire issue is devoted to MO and BO and the inauguration. Cover to cover.

    It landed in the basket since I am now sick to death of the two of them and pictures of them “canoodling” on every page. Enough already! Give it a rest for once!

    The intimation is that “sex” is taking place in the WH once again. Whoop dee doo doo doo!!!

  80. Part of the mystique of JFK is that his death set in motion so many events.

    Had he not been killed, LBJ would not have become President. We don’t know what would have happened as far as JFK’s reelection, the Civil Rights Movement, Vietnam, the anti-war movement, RFK, Nixon, Watergate, etc.

    Some things might have happened anyway, but they still would have been different. Johnson used the sympathy caused by the assassination to push through legislation that might not have otherwise passed.

    This whole kerfluffle over Caroline would never had happened except for “Camelot.”

  81. Ok, I’m still plowing through the MacFarquhar piece, but how fawning is this, referring to her high school years?:

    She had moments of greatness: according to the biographer C. David Heymann, when the police discovered pot plants that her cousin David was growing in her back yard in Hyannis Port, she took the blame.

    Oh yeah, keeping your elite family out of trouble with the cops is SUCH greatness!

  82. Sorry to delurk again, but Myiq has it.
    I was all of 14 years old when JFK died. I remember vividly where i was when I heard the news (in front of the TV wating for Jungle Jay Nelson’s show) I was devastated, yet life goes on. Since then, I’ve read everything that has been written, and JfK is not the Merlin I expected. He was better than most for the short time he was in charge. No one knows what he would have done thereafter. No one knows what was in his plans…..no one knows.
    BostonBoomer,,,,I am a lurker, and I come here because of the people who pen intelligent, thoughtful posts. You are one of those people. If you choose to stop doing something that you do so well, because you disagree with some comments (that I haven’t seen), then that is a shame. You deny yourself from expressing yourself oh so well, and you deny your fans. I’m not sure why you are upset, but, I will miss you if you choose not to add your very valuable voice to the discussion.
    Back to lurking,
    B B, don’t lurk, write~!

  83. Hooray for Governor Paterson for displaying common sense and good judgement. Caroline Kennedy has proven that she lives in a bubble. I’m glad the governor was, as I was, offended that the other candidates were treated like second-class citizens. Ms. Gillibrand seems like a hard worker with her head screwed on straight.

    Now, being a Massachusetts resident, I’m shaking in my boots at the thought of Caroline replacing Uncle Teddy. We have qualified candidates here too who could run circles around her. And it’s high time we had a female senator, especially after those two MCPs abandoned Hillary in the primary. Martha Coakley, our current AG, would be an excellent choice.

  84. The JFK assassination put paid to the “innocence” of the American myth as well. TV, barely out of its infancy, brought the sight of death and destruction right into our living rooms, paving the way for the Vietnam footage which filled our nightly supper hours during the turbulent 60s.

    A whole cultural change developed right before our eyes and we have never been the same.

  85. Citizen70: As another Bay Stater I second Martha Coakley as well.

  86. Pat> “Canoodling?” Obviously you missed the link I posted yesterday to a youtube clip of a sex expert talking about MO and BO’s more extreme tastes in the sack. I won’t repeat it here…it’s not after hours yet.

  87. RD,

    I have never seen the musical Camelot, and I never had JFK on a pedestal. I can’t even relate to that idea. For me he was a real person. It’s not even that I admired him. The fact is he was a liberal in the tradition of FDR, the last president like that we have had. And we have not been living in a free or democratic republic since his assassination. It’s as simple as that. JFK planned to pull us out of Vietnam, he forced Allen Dulles out because he recognized how toxic the CIA had become. As for the Cuban Missile Crisis, JFK didn’t stare down the Soviets. Another myth. In fact he actually was the one who backed down. He wanted to get rid of nuclear weapons, and he planned to negotiate with Kruschev to make it happen. That could not be allowed. So he was killed.

    Quite frankly, I think I may be a little bit more educated about what JFK actually did as President than many others here. As I said, I have made a point to study those years rather closely over recent months. I think the picture that is being painted by some commenters here is quite cliched and incorrect. Believe me or not–or do the research that I have done. I won’t back down on this. The history is much more complicated than is generally known.

    I think of The Confluence as a place where people are willing to be open to complex and different viewpoints. On this particular one, apparently, the myth and the countermyth are still in ascendence here. Personally, I’ve moved beyond both. I want to really understand why our government is in the terrible state it is in. In my opinion, that understanding must begin with a recognition of the lies our government and the media have been telling us since Nov. 22, 1963. If that makes me unpopular here, so be it.

  88. DYB: I did read it. That woman was ridiculous! She had no idea the wheels she set in motion with that one.

  89. When Bobby Kennedy was running for the Senate, he had a campaign stop at the Syracuse airport. My husband and I, with two small children in arms, went there to meet Bobby. When we went through the line, I was carrying the baby and Bobby first looked at the baby and then he looked directly into my eyes. I have never forgotten what beautiful, blue, penetrating eyes he had. In Sahl’s book, Mort also mentions how blue they were.
    I have always thought , Bobby’s ability to “recognize ” people made him a good politician.

  90. PJ:

    Until 9/11 there was no other event that got non-stop, commercial free coverage. The shooting of Oswald happened live in front of numerous television cameras too.

  91. bb: You are not alone in your thoughts. And you certainly are not “unpopular”. As I am sure you have done as well, one cannot came out of the Kennedy Library unmoved. I was a mess as a matter of fact!

  92. We have an insatiable appetite to “know” as much as we can about these people who lead or entertain us. As a result we often refuse to recognize that they are above all human, just like the rest of us. We either place them on pedestals or consign them to the junk heap. That’s us. We fail to measure all the ingredients that form the whole.

    I think this is one reason why many of us have resisted the Obama tsunami. We know there is more there than has met the eye and are unwilling to take it at face value.

  93. Woah! BB, you couldn’t ever be unpopular here!

    I, for one, would love to read more about your research. If we Conflucians are guilty of spreading myths, then we should correct ourselves just as willingly as we correct any Obot misinformation. You sound like the appropriate person to correct the myths about the Kennedy’s that are here. I will definitely read what you write about it. Like RD, I was very young when John was assassinated (3) and don’t remember much.

  94. hello all peasant fuzzybear had a great day with the nieces and brother and sis-in-law.

    I also got to meet the newest addition to the family a rescue dog english setter mix lovingly given the name “Tebow” after 2 time NCAA national champion UF Gator quarterback Tim Tebow.

    The newest member of the gator nation is fiesty and sweet as all get out… plus he love napping on the ol’ fuzzybear’s belly.

    I am sorry Pampers daughters this dogs a keeper. Go get your own.

    It been a good day I have sown the seed of dislike of Pampers in dozens of little 13 year old girls…who now know what misoginy is!

    Its been a good day, a real good day!

  95. We PUMAs really vibrate at the same frequency. I haven’ touched the Times in months because of their relentless, condescending, and transparent elitism. I read it today, because someone else bought it, and I wanted to see what they said about Gillibrand. I’ve been b*tching about it ever since, and then I come here…and wallah!

    Being away from it, even the “news reports” sound snide and clearly agenda driven, like cocktail party gossip. It should be retitled the Village Manifesto.

    Collins, in particular, annoyed me too. I assiduously avoid the Editorial Page because of Dowd, Herbert & Rich-itis, but the name “HIllary” caught my eye in Collins’ heading.

    She also wrote: However, it seems as if the new senator’s politics are evolving at a rate previously seen only in science-fiction movies.

    Let me guess: she’s never mentioned a word about Obama’s immediate and garish shift on every primary campaign position and promise he made right? Didn’t think so.

  96. My comment disappeared: did Angry Black Guy devour it?

  97. DYB,

    But that is just my point. Because Caroline is a ridiculous figure who mistakenly thought that Obama resembled her father is, in my opinion, no reason to attack JFK and what he tried to accomplish.

    Those efforts he was making to work toward peace and to reduce the influence of the CIA and the military-industrial complex over our government are not well understood. And that is by design. The media has done a very good job of diminishing JFK to the point where he is now thought of as a joke.

    Bush has for now managed to diminish the CIA, but the military-industrial complex is in full control of our government. The Bush family is the one we should be worried about. The Kennedys really aren’t all that influential anymore. But the Bushes and those who put them in power control everything–and they’ll get what they want from Obama.

  98. I think the picture that is being painted by some commenters here is quite cliched and incorrect.

    I don’t disagree. I was born in 1960 (while Ike was still Prez) but spent a lot of time reading about the JFK assassination. There is a lot of disagreement over what JFK did and/or intended to do. I’m not sure even he knew what he was going to to.

    I was an political junkie through the Clinton years and we can’t even get everyone to agree about what happened then.

  99. OK, I just tried again, and something must have upset Spammy. Can someone fish it out of the Underworld?

  100. But Clinton to his credit is still around to defend himself. JFK is at the mercy of others.

  101. BB:
    Why would having a differing opinion make you unpopular?
    What you’re doing is admirable.
    You’ve inspired me enough to reevaluate what I previously thought.

    The history is much more complicated than is generally known.

    I agree with that statement, though the way our government i and our country is, I think, has a lot more to do than JFK’s unfinished life.

    Pat and DYB:

    Oh sure, because Obie and his wife are the only First Couples to have EVER had sex.

    Where does this person get her information from, anyway?

  102. fif, Thanks for speaking up. For some reason your comment went straight into the actual spam filter and I never noticed it. You’ve been set free, however!

  103. I think we are reaching a tipping point here. What we now see is that we have here a class of people who are shaping opinion and running the country who hold the rest of us in utter contempt.

    I was listening to the radio in the car today, and they played a clip with Tom Brokaw. He is talking about his travels in the South and other areas of the country, and he actually said [paraphrase]: “I thought of those bigots and red-necks on Inauguration day, and I thought, ‘Take that–a black man is now president!”

    THIS is a journalist? His contempt for all those bitter, gun-toting red neck Bubbas in all those non-citified places was very clear. And doesn’t he feel oh-so-good about himself for being so enlightened and evolved to empathize with the AA experience. Contempt, I can relate to–my growing contempt for these sanctimonious elitists. Their smug, self-importance is palpable.

  104. The press can take the blame for what passes for news today. The same ones who defamed Sarah Palin and her deficiencies were the same ones who sought to elevate Caroline despite hers. It is a brand of hypocrisy never before practiced. Objectivity became an old fashioned term of media coverage.

    The same ones who decried the “inevitability and entitlement” of Hillary Clinton described breathlessly the possibility of Caroline based on nothing more than her maiden name.

    This is a group who wants it both ways but hopes no one notices. We do. It is what sets us apart in our own independent thought. We see right through it.

  105. Thanks kb!

  106. bboomer, please don’t go away, if people are ‘hating on’ JFK I’m thinking it’s a lot of spillover from resenting Caroline’s misbegotten grab for the prize, or backlash against the romanticized image of JFK that is very widespread. We’re all just trying to understand, and you’re greater knowledge is a welcome addition to the communal pot of knowledge.

    I think the CK thing is really an important and encouraging event. The NYT and the rest of the MSM was successful in selling Obama to the masses, but there’s still fight left among the real people. They weren’t able to sell CK, not even with the Kennedy name backing her up, a lot of high profile endorsements and simpering paeans from her elite pals, and Obama’s imprimatur.

    Obama’s inauguration may have seemed like the death knell of rational democracy, but New Yorkers’ rejection of CK is a small but encouraging win toward taking the political discourse back from the ruling elite. That’s why people like Lawrence O’Donnell and the NYT editors are getting so p*ssy; it’s not just that they didn’t get their puppetgirl in the show, it’s what it means in terms of their power to manipulate public opinion.

    I wish Paterson had picked Maloney, but picking Gillibrand is a great step also. The more the O’Donnell’s and CK’s rick mover-shaker pals try to paint her as an inexperienced rube, the more in touch with real people she looks. CK’s pals misunderstood how thoroughly sick we all are of a few rich (and dilettante) p&gs getting all the breaks.

  107. BB:

    I’m not attacking JFK and I don’t think anyone else is.

    We’re attacking “Camelot” which is the myth surrounding JFK.

    JFK did not live long enough or accomplish enough to be considered a great President. Had he lived, he may have achieved greatness, or he may have failed. He could lost his reelction bid or might have left office because of a scandal.

    We will never know.

    He had lots of potential and high ideals, but he also had feet of clay.

  108. Objectivity became an old fashioned term of media coverage.

    Pat: that’s what has amazed me this year–they don’t even PRETEND to be objective anymore. It’s blatant and they are proud of it. George Stephanopolous is bragging about crying on Inauguration Day as if he has struggled so hard to get there himself. Tom Brokaw got all choked up talking about the old AA’s he saw wheeled in on the big day, and how “humiliated” they have been. That’s fine that they feel something, but they are openly sharing it with the public, as if they have no obligation to neutrality.

  109. Tom Brokaw=Village Group Think

  110. I don’t think anyone here really said anything THAT bad about JFK, BB.
    *is a bit miffed*

    I don’t disagree. I was born in 1960 (while Ike was still Prez) but spent a lot of time reading about the JFK assassination. There is a lot of disagreement over what JFK did and/or intended to do. I’m not sure even he knew what he was going to to.

    I was an political junkie through the Clinton years and we can’t even get everyone to agree about what happened then.

    Exactly, so why get upset?

    ((((BostonBoomer))))

  111. fif,

    I agree. We really need to bring them all down. I cancelled my subscription to the Globe in 2004, because of their shoddy coverage of the campaign and their determination to take down Kerry.

    The internet is the new media. The big newspapers are bankrupt in more ways than one. The Boston Globe is now trying to completely reorganize and focus mostly on local news–that’s if they survive as a newspaper at all. That isn’t clear yet. If these big newspapers had actually focused on investigative journalism during the Bush years and during the recent campaign, things might be different. But they are nothing but stenographers now, and therefore they are irrelevant.

  112. Isn’t the Boston Globe now owned by the NYT?

  113. On a side note: I know people have some issues with Schumer (eg: the Fairness Doctrine crap), but I know that a group of powerful HC supporters in NYC met with him in June after Hillary conceded to express their disgust re: the sexism and lack of female representation in government. One of the women at that meeting, a close friend and adviser of Gillibrand’s, told me he really listened and “got it.” Fast forward to yesterday: news reports have stated that Schumer really pushed for her.

    We helped this happen–the women who would not “get over it” and fall into line. It’s a good sign.

  114. I am always amazed about how people in the US see JFK so differently than us Europeans.I fondly remember when, at 15, I and millions of people waited under the hot sun for about 5/6 hours just to see him ride in the no top limo. The wait was that long because the car just could not make it through the throngs of people that came from everywhere (and no, there was no rock concert and no free beer…lol). Many stopped the car to shake his hand. When he wrote to our President to thank him for the hospitality he wrote in his handwriting “Viva Napoli”: we never forgot him. You see, he represented Democracy to us :the USSR had paid politicians in our Comunist Party who tried to make Italy into a Soviet satellite Country, like Poland, Romania and the rest of them.Because of JFK and what he represented, and the way he was talking to us, elections were heavily in favor of Democratic Parties and the plot to turn us into a Warsaw Pact member was unsuccessful. I will always be grateful for that.

  115. I think Obama and Uncle Ted (and maybe her children who told her whom to support) convinced her that with their influence, she was a shoo-in. She made the mistake of believing them. Also, she also may have expected support from the NY Times. Only thing, Paterson wouldn’t read the memo.

  116. myiq,

    As I said before, I don’t know anything about Camelot. I’m often ignorant of pop culture. I never saw the play or movie or even listened to the songs. Sorry…I just have no idea what you are talking about.

    I’m talking about something completely different and apparently not getting through. I’m not “miffed,” just a little disappointed. I’ll get over it. I’m sure there are subject that you are very knowedgeable about. This is something I’ve become knowlegeable about. I would like to write about it, but it isn’t easy for me to boil it all down into a post. One person who has done a lot of good work on all this is Joseph Cannon.

    Again, I think the powerful family that it would be more appropriate to examine and attack would be the Bush family. They are and have always been far more powerful and influential than the Kennedy family–there really is no comparision. The Bushes have had a profound influence on our government since before WWI. They are incredibly powerful and dangerous.

  117. The Daiy Howler is the only blog willing to parse what the current media reports. Although I have to admit, Bob Somerby allowed a lot of the crap that was being spewed out there on behalf of Obama to be given a pass. That was disappointing.

    For the most part he was still in the time warp of the Gore campaign in comparing today’s blatant coverage but there was little criticism of the Obama talking points coming out of his daily wrap up.

    In his defense, he did take on the Hillary critics but he seemed to gloss over Obama’s missteps and those who acted on his behalf which was most of the Villagers and tv talking heads.

  118. bb: and despite their contempt for the common man, we can all see through their lies and manipulation. The repeated polls showing the lack of media credibility and the falling revenues illustrate their slow death. You would think they would have responded to the cries of bias from the public, but they just threw a tag line on Campbell Brown’s show, “No Bias, No Bull,” and that’s supposed to convince us all that they are true journalists. Just like Caroline, their insular self-satisfaction separates them from real people. As RD points out, there is a disconnect. They insulted Hillary and Palin for rubbing elbows with the people, and now they are starting with Kirsten. If we can just find a way to ensure fair elections, the people will choose the real connection over the propaganda in the voting booth.

  119. myiq2xu, on January 24th, 2009 at 8:11 pm Said:

    I don’t disagree. I was born in 1960 (while Ike was still Prez) but spent a lot of time reading about the JFK assassination. There is a lot of disagreement over what JFK did and/or intended to do. I’m not sure even he knew what he was going to to.
    ***********
    The “feeling” and enthusiasm for JFK in the run-up to the 1960 was very similar to run-up to ’08’. After ’52 and ’66 with two old men running, the “younger” post war gen was looking for a change..there was also a lot of excitement about electing the first RC President.

  120. But that is just my point. Because Caroline is a ridiculous figure who mistakenly thought that Obama resembled her father is, in my opinion, no reason to attack JFK and what he tried to accomplish.

    I never thought Obama resembled JFK in any way, and as for “Camelot”, yes, I think it is over rated. But that has nothing to do with what JFK might have or might not have done, and did do, as President.

    And I can understand the creation of that myth in the wake of his assassination.

    THIS is a journalist? His contempt for all those bitter, gun-toting red neck Bubbas in all those non-citified places was very clear. And doesn’t he feel oh-so-good about himself for being so enlightened and evolved to empathize with the AA experience. Contempt, I can relate to–my growing contempt for these sanctimonious elitists. Their smug, self-importance is palpable.

    It seems more like State TV than anything, and I’m starting to understand why so many in the South tend to be conservative. It’s because Eastern Media outlets treat them with such contempt, they feel looked down upon, and that isn’t right.

    I will maintain that a big part of what is wrong with this country is the classist attitude the Village Elite and Corporate Media has towards most of Americans.

  121. The process of memory construction, public history display, and the formulation of political, social and national identities and their expression relies upon a variety of components.

    The iconography of JFK reached mammoth proportions. Cult of personality, a figure to reflect what we want to be upon. Unfortunately Obama will meet the same treatment in history. History relies upon facts, memory relies upon the less tangible- emotion, nostalgia. While flattering it isn’t even fair to the subject.

    Bush ponders “how will I be remembered”. Obama- not so worried but then again perhaps he should be.

    I would like to suggest two books.

    . Leavy, Patricia. Iconic Events : Media, Politics, and Power in Retelling History Lanham, MD : Lexington Books, 2007

    Olick, Jeffrey K. The Politics of Regret : On Collective Memory and Historical Responsibility. New York : Routledge, 2007.

    . Hufbauer, Benjamin. Presidential Temples: How Memorials and Libraries Shape Public Memory. Lawrence: University Press of Kansas, 2006.

    These are all texts that I assign my students and are wonderful.

  122. Kennedy had to “sell” himself to the voters unlike Obama today who was “sold” to us by the press. Back then, Nixon was the favorite to win as he was the VP and the Catholic backlash against Kennedy was in full throttle.

    All in all it was a different campaign compared to what we have been treated to as of today. Kennedy had to do it with charm, patience, and wit. Obama had the full court press in his corner and not a whiff of criticism was allowed.

    Huge difference in coverage and a sign of how much the times have changed.

  123. Bella Napoli,

    Thank you so much for sharing that. Americans do have a way of tearing down our own. I’m trying so hard to make the point that the “Camelot myth” is really part of that process of diminishing the importance of what we lost. We could have avoided Vietnam and the buildup of nuclear weapons. I don’t know if Kennedy would have succeeded, but he definitely planned to try. That is well established for anyone who wants to read about it. Start with his last major speech.

  124. BB:

    I’m not referring to the broadway play. I’m talking about the idea that the Kennedys are special, that they are “America’s royal family.”

    That Camelot myth needs to go.

  125. BostonBoomer:

    I’m talking about something completely different and apparently not getting through. I’m not “miffed,” just a little disappointed. I’ll get over it. I’m sure there are subject that you are very knowedgeable about. This is something I’ve become knowlegeable about. I would like to write about it, but it isn’t easy for me to boil it all down into a post. One person who has done a lot of good work on all this is Joseph Cannon.

    If it’s something you care a lot about and would like to get out in the open, then why not write a post about it, chikadeeta?

    Pat:

    Oh, I love the Daily Howler. I ignored it during the General Election, because naturally they would defend Obama, but they have always defended Liberals worthy of defense beautifully.

  126. Of course there is a cult of personality about JFK. He was murdered in front of our very eyes when he was in his prime.

    He may have come into office with a small margin of victory but at his death the nation as a whole mourned.

  127. I’m not referring to the broadway play. I’m talking about the idea that the Kennedys are special, that they are “America’s royal family.”

    Exactly, it is that sense of entitlement that should go. I would argue that the Kennedy Family is just as Powerful as the Bush Family, though the Bush Family, I would agree, is much more dangerous.

  128. JFK is partly responsible for the myth surrounding him.

    He invited a photographer from Life magazine to go along on his first date with Jackie (they went sailing)

    The Kennedy boys played football on the WH lawn but we now know that JFK was in constant terrible pain from his back. He concealed his health problems from the public.

    JFK was an idealist, but he was also part of a political machine.

  129. Heh – Maloney should primary SCHUMER. Now that I’d pay money to see. You want change, here’s your change right here! Why shouldn’t we ALWAYS be promoting our own candidates? Isn’t this what bugged us this time about the Ds in the first place? I for one would like to see some challengers to the status quo,

    I think the leadership of both houses has been complacent and allowed some bad things to happen – why shouldn’t they pay for their complicity? I will no longer vote for those who say nothing when the Constitution is shredded.

  130. SHV:

    Nixon was part of that younger generation too.

  131. Okay, I am doing my civic duty here for those who wish to avoid the Sunday Morning Talk Show Circuit once again.

    They are featuring some of our old time faves: Pelosi, Schumer, Boehnert, and my own fallen hero, Rangel. Plus Joe Biden fpr those of you who just can’t get enough!

    So for those who may have planned on setting their alarm clocks, don’t bother. The same old faces spouting the same old stories, attended by the same old talking heads.

  132. Valhalla,

    I never said I was going to go away. I could never leave the Confluence! All I said was that I was going to lurk on this thread. I’m sorry if I upset anyone. I felt offended by what I saw as some very simplistic thinking. I’m not angry at anyone here, but I’m very angry at what has happened to my country. IMO, the election of Obama is the culmination of a coup that happened when JFK was murdered. Yes, some good followed–Medicare and the Civil Rights Act. But the war economy began in earnest and the Bush forces have mostly controlled our government since.

  133. Does anybody here care that a tax thief is just about to be confirmed as our Treasury Secretary? I think it’s outrageous!

  134. I’m still reeling about the Tom Brokaw comment — he said WHAT????

  135. While JFK is partly responsible, he is not responsible for society’s need to hold on to the myth. Once society no longer needs it ( as we can see from the comments here), it will correct itself.

    Obama is also into myth making albeit in a sloppy fashion.

  136. I don’t know of too many of us that do not recall exactly where we were when JFK and RFK died.

  137. Huge difference in coverage and a sign of how much the times have changed.
    **************
    For good and bad..the press tended not to expose “personal” problems; ie Kennedy’s affairs, all of the womanizing drunks in Congress, ie Wilbur Mills, one of the most powerful men in the country was a stumbling drunk. The Parties have also changed..in 1960, it was Democrats who were fighting to maintain legalized r*cial segregation.

    I can even remember the “big” campaign issues: Kennedy’s Catholicism, “The Missile Gap” and Kimoi-Matsu islands.

  138. When JFK ran, he ran from a powerful family with many political connections, but that was due to his father, who, despite having unpopular isolationist views, worked his way up from the bottom, being from a poor Irish immigrant family, I believe, even if he did so unethically at times.

    In that respect, JFK was much different than the Bushes, and it was probably why a lot of voters felt a connection to him.

    JFK’s father was an idealist, in some ways, and he was interested in power for his family, particularly his sons. When JFK’s older brother, Joe Kennedy Jr, died tragically, the idea was that the mantle had been passed to “Jack” (JFK).

    JFK also didn’t want to President, but felt that he was obligated to seek the office for his family, I think.

    And that made him a unique President with some new ideas.

  139. Citzen70,

    Hell yes I care. That guy is a disgrace. It seems that the only blogs that do care are the conservative ones. American Thinker. has said a lot about. I have called my senators 27 times already.

  140. I’m very angry at what has happened to my country. IMO, the election of Obama is the culmination of a coup that happened when JFK was murdered. Yes, some good followed–Medicare and the Civil Rights Act. But the war economy began in earnest and the Bush forces have mostly controlled our government since.

    A good point, but I’m not sure if I agree with you that the Bush forces have controlled our Government as a result of JFK’s assassination.

    And I don’t think that thinking is “simplistic” either.

    My opinion has nothing to do with whatever Kennedy endorsed Obama, but has everything to do with Kennedy himself.

  141. Paterson has no comprehension of upstate New York, absolutely none, and has chosen someone better at representing cows than people,” Lawrence O’Donnell says. “What you have is the daughter of a lobbyist, instead of the daughter of a former President or the son of a former governor. This is the hack world producing the hack result that the hacks are happy with.

    OMG: I just read this. Each time you think it can’t get any worse…it does. Kirsten is now reduced to being the “daughter of a lobbyist?” Uh…her grandmother was a powerful political player, and both her parents were lawyers and political players. NOT TO MENTION: that Kirsten herself is an experienced attorney and political activist who has been elected TO CONGRESS TWICE!?! Does he think she was reelected with 65% of the vote because she relates to cows?

    What a complete and utter moron.

  142. Part of the problem with mythologizing the past is that it is unfair to the present day.

    Washington and Lincoln weren’t saints. They had weaknesses and made mistakes.

    Bill Clinton was one of our best Presidents, but he almost threw it all away because he couldn’t keep it in his pants. FDR died with his long-time mistress, not his wife. LBJ was uncouth, Truman had a temper.

    Shakespeare was wrong, the good lives on and the bad dies with us and gets interred with our bones.

  143. SHV,

    Which is why you cannot rely upon the press. When was the last time anyone has visited an archive? The place were memory crystallizes and allows us to draw our own conclusions about historical facts.

    I worked on preserving the JPK diaries. They are there read them, they are in his own hand. Draw your own conclusions.

    Secondary sources are created from primary resources.

  144. I’ve brought up these ideas many times at TC, but no one ever engages me about them. On this thread I’ve repeatedly tried ot make my point: there was a coup in the U.S. on November 22, 1963. The Bush family benefited greatly from that coup and have largely controlled our government since. I think that dealing with that is a lot more important than knocking down the Camelot myth, which I do not really believe is that powerful at this point.

    Ted Kennedy is one of the most hated politicians in the country. He is treated as a joke here in MA. There simply isn’t any Kennedy control over the status quo. That should be clear after what happened to Caroline. I’m very proud that we may have had something to do with it too.

    Meanwhile the Bush family, Wall Street, and the rest of the military-industrial complex controls our government. And if Obama tries to do anything about that, they’ll make sure to let him know who is really in control.

  145. Obama’s approval rating is now at 68%. Wasn’t it more like 72% just days ago? And what is he waiting for the stimulus package? I am not in complete favor of raping the treasury yet again but there are millions out here in dire need of help.

    For those insistent that he would act accordingly once he got in, these “cautions” are beginning to mount. We are way past the time of caution but deeply in need of action.

    Just ask someone like SM as an example. While he plays footsie with the GOP people are losing jobs, homes, health insurance, and hope. Get off the stick!!

  146. Yes, Geithner, is fucking outrageous. What else can we say? I’m not being sarcastic. I’m asking. What should we do? The bastard is a crook, really. They lambasted a global charity but the criminal walks away scot-free. How do you even begin to combat that kind of fabulous ridiculousness?

  147. Yup, I heard it with my own ears. Basically, he came right out and said, “We helped to elect an AA president because of our sentimental 60’s feelings for Civil Rights and to stick it to all the ‘red-necks’ out there. Take that!”

  148. Uh oh, I’m in moderation!
    I feel testy tonight. Gotta go, Prayers for Bobby is on in a few minutes on Lifetime!

  149. I care that a tax thief will be in charge of the Treasury. What do you suggest I do about it?

  150. Pat: it was 85%!?! Of course, ACORN probably did the polling.

  151. where is this brokaw quote????

  152. I care too Citizen 70, Geithner and the convoluted logic behind supporting him, frankly pisses me off. He’s either a cheat or he’s incompetent. First, he tried to blame his accountant, then it came out he did his own taxes so he blamed TurboTax. Did Turbo Tax tell him to keep the IMF reimbursements? Besides, didn’t the bailout crisis happen on his watch? How can he see us out of it when he didn’t see it coming when he was right there in it?

  153. “being from a poor Irish immigrant family, I believe, even if he did so unethically at times. ”
    *********
    The Bush and Kennedy families have similar histories. Joe Sr.was born into a connected Boston family, went to Boston Latin and Harvard and made a lot of money both legally and illegally. Prescott Bush was born into a connected family, went to Ivy league schools did fair in business but married into big money. Prescott made money supporting Nazi industry until FDR threatened to have him put in jail.

  154. Nothing can be done. That is the problem. We do not deal in integrity any longer. Take a look at the present congress as an example. Some are under investigation right now for ethics charges yet they sit there, like Vitter as an example, and do not suffer the consequences of their actions. Shame has been replaced by hubris.

    And Blago is about to go to NY and appear on The View of all places! There are always two sides to every story but when you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar while being interviewed by Diane Sawyer and a camera crew, you need to go!

    Term limits. Term limits. Term limits. A place to start.

  155. I agree bb, though I don’t know as much about is as you do–there is a whole shadow government controlling things. Did you ever read “Confessions of an Economic Hitman?”

  156. I heard it on the radio on (uck, sorry) Limbaugh today. I went to You Tube but there were several Tom Brokaw segments and I can’t bear to listen to him go on and on about Obama. They did play a separate segment about the older AA’s that was on the Today show. I can try to find something.

  157. little isis: I’m watching Prayers for Bobby too–Sigourney Weaver! On Lifetime, based on a true story about a young gay man.

  158. And BB, I’m open for discussion about the things you address, but the issue is not as clear-cut for a lot of us as it seems to be for you. Who’s behind the coup, how did they get to Johnson in 4 days, or was he an actor? And isn’t Obie wholly owned by the same forces? How exactly do you see the Bush family? For me, most of the “dramatic shift from the Bush policies” crap has largely been window dressing.

  159. BB,
    when he was killed I promised to myself that one day I would go pray on his grave and thank him personally. Do you know that’s the first thing we did when my American husband and I came to the US on our honeymoon (and to introduce me to his family)? I told him I had to keep a promise before we went on to
    Massachussetts, so we stopped in DC and Arlington first. That was 30 years ago.

  160. Giethner is a Rubin protege and Rubin was a the helm of Citigroup for 10 years, and left just before it collapsed. THESE are the people who are dubbed as the ONLY saviors of the economy. And Larry Summers, misogynist extraordinaire.

  161. BB-camelot is an OK musical the story is riveting because it is the arthurian legend brought to the stage.

    It got a big ticket boost because of the association with the Kennedy Administration…all the possibilities unfulfilled beacuse of those few shots form the Dallas book depository…I think alot of what was mourned was the lost potential that JFK assination represented.

    One song really moved me it was sung by Lancealot to Gwenivier “If ever I would Leave You” Douglas sang that song alot….

  162. Little Isis: “A good point, but I’m not sure if I agree with you that the Bush forces have controlled our Government as a result of JFK’s assassination.”

    I didn’t say that. I said that that Bush family has been extremely influential and powerful in our government since the Woodrow Wilson administration. What is your opinion based on? I’ll recommend some books, in case you are interested:

    Family of Secrets, by Russ Baker
    American Dynasty, by Kevin Phillips
    JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why it Matters, by James Douglass

  163. afrocity, on January 24th, 2009 at 8:54 pm Said:

    SHV,

    Which is why you cannot rely upon the press. When was the last time anyone has visited an archive? The place were memory crystallizes and allows us to draw our own conclusions about historical facts.
    *************
    I agree and it’s getting worse. ( Bush froze all of his fathers records.) The Founders realized the importance of the press, without accurate, contemporaneous information, a democracy won’t work.

    The White House tapes are an amazing resource. Listening to LBJ and his advisors sitting in the oval office during the Gulf of Tonkin was very interesting. Another interesting tape was JFK talking to Ross Barnett during the “crisis” at U. Miss. The conversation was not flattering to JFK.

  164. Blaming George W. Bush for the last 8 years is like blaming Ronald McDonald when you get a bad cheeseburger.

    Neither one of them was really in charge.

  165. How is the Bush Family tied into the New World Order?

    And what was the name of the billionaires’ group that met with Obama (and Clinton), the one who decides who they want in and who sets the agenda for the takeover of the world governments? (i thought I had saved the link but can’t find it now)

  166. Another great book is:

    Barbie Zelizer, Covering the Body: The Kennedy Assassination, the Media, and
    the Shaping of Collective Memory (Chicago: University of Chicago Press,
    1992),

  167. plainjane31, on January 24th, 2009 at 9:11 pm Said:

    How is the Bush Family tied into the New World Order?
    **********
    myiq2xu, might want you to bring that up on Tuesdays.

  168. “the good lives on and the bad dies with us and gets interred with our bones.”

    Jesus. thank god for that. I have a chance to leave fond memories after all.

    {{BB}} I adore you.

  169. The Bilderberg Conference is the name./ Is this what they mean by “the shadow government”?

  170. I’ve called Sen. Kerry and Rep. Frank to express my outrage over the Geithner nomination. Also called the Senate Finance Committee. A lot of good it did. Kerry never responds and the Committee voted to confirm.

    For those of you who haven’t called your Senator, please do. The full vote is scheduled for Monday. I believe the fix is in because most Senators are scared shitless and have no idea what to do to fix this financial mess. They think they have to go with Tax-free Tim.

  171. It appears as though David Paterson is really some kind of a flake. Just read an article regarding him and the CK fiasco and he does not come out looking too good himself.

    Poor NY State. No more Hillary but this cast of questionable characters. Move over Illinois. You are not alone.

  172. The official version of the JFK assassination was locked into the “lone gunman” theory almost from the start.

    Then the Zapruder film turned up, showing that the fatal bullet didn’t come from behind.

    Supposedly after killing JFK and Dallas police officer J.D. Tippet, Oswald snuck into a theater without paying. There never was any explanation for the killing ot Tippet.

    Someone saw Oswald sneak in and called the cops. About 20 cops arrived, even though no broadcast had been made to look out for Oswald or anyone with his description.

    Oswald never confessed and in his only public appearance before being killed he denied killing anyone and said he was a patsy.

  173. Pat, we (Illinois) never was.

  174. What burns me up about Geithner, other than the tax dodging, is that Obama could have been influenced to pick him because his father Peter may have had some ties to Ann Dunham. It may be tinfoil hat, but I wonder about Stanley Ann’s false ss# and her addresses in NYC after she had supposedly died.

  175. Things are beginning to sound a bit Grassy Kn0ll-ish around here.

  176. I never bought into any conspiracy. Oswald was a loner looking for attention. A man unhappy wherever he went. He begged to become a Russian citizen and that did not last. He tried only a short time before Kennedy was killed to assassinate some Right Wing general in Texas by sitting in a tree outside his house but that failed. He attempted to get into Cuba and that was squashed.

    A lonely and not very bright man looking to make a name for himself. Unfortunately he did.

  177. Afrocity, What is the title of the course for the books you recommend?

  178. History and Collective Memory

  179. I didn’t say that. I said that that Bush family has been extremely influential and powerful in our government since the Woodrow Wilson administration. What is your opinion based on? I’ll recommend some books, in case you are interested:

    Family of Secrets, by Russ Baker
    American Dynasty, by Kevin Phillips
    JFK and the Unspeakable: Why He Died and Why it Matters, by James Douglass

    Commercial! Prayers for Bobby is very good so far.

    BB, I have also read about the shadow government and organizations and I am aware that it is very likely that JFK’s death was the result of a desire of one of these groups.

    I would love to read these books because I think you and I could have a really fascinating conversation on this subject.
    I agree that there are certain influencial forces in our government that are very dangerous. (sorry, sp)

    But I think the Kennedy family’s close political ties do not exclude them from being influenced by these forces, even if they may or may not have had a hand in JKF’s assassination.

    However, there are also behind the scenes forces in our government that really do strive for good. Like, for example, the Rosy Cross, certain factions of the illuminati (though other factions are really awful) and the FreeMasons.

    There are many theories about how they may or may not effect our governemt and their officials, none of which can be proved.

    Movie back on! Be back in a jiff, folks!

  180. ACK! I’m in moderation again!
    *slides away for a few minutes*

  181. Oswald never confessed and in his only public appearance before being killed he denied killing anyone and said he was a patsy.
    **********
    Watching Jack Ruby kill Oswald on live TV was amazing.

  182. A lonely and not very bright man looking to make a name for himself. Unfortunately he did.
    ———-
    Pat, I don’t buy that. Oswald was sent, probably by the CIA,to Russia after he was sent to school to learn the langauge.. His wife was the daughter of someone high up in the Russian government.
    I believe him when he said that he was the patsy and I beleive that he was murdered to keep him from talking.

  183. Afrocity,

    Thank you for the book recommendations. Those are all new to me.

  184. Hey myiq,

    We need a new (lighter) thread. I wonder if there is anything funny happening out out there? Any zombie news?

  185. (nodding) What BB said!

  186. Thanks, everyone for your input. I guess I kind of highjacked this thread, and I apologize for that. At the same time, I appreciate that at TC we always seem to come together and produce some terrific discussion!

  187. Poor Bobby!
    Yeah, how about a lighthearted thread, folks?

  188. Thanks, everyone for your input. I guess I kind of highjacked this thread, and I apologize for that. At the same time, I appreciate that at TC we always seem to come together and produce some terrific discussion!

    (((((((BostonBoomer))))))))

  189. Pat:

    There are way too many weird things about Oswald.

    He supposedly became a marxist while stationed at a top-secret U-2 base in Japan. He gets out of the Marines, defects to Russia, then comes back and doesn’t even get questioned by the FBI (at the height of the Cold War)

    When he gets back he does a bunch of other stuff and hangs around groups like the “Fair Play For Cuba Committee.” but makes nary a blip on official records. He even goes to the Russian Embassy in Mexico City.

    If he wanted to make a name for himself, why didn’t he admit killing Kennedy?

  190. Lighthearted like Black poverty levels and abortion?

  191. Let me see what I can find

  192. bb: that’s what I said earlier. A group of HC women supporters met with Schumer in June right after Hillary conceded and they expressed their anger at Obama, the Dem leaders, and the need to advance more women in the Party. I was told by one of the attendees that he really listened and understood, promising to help. Apparently, he has! He is not perfect, but it’s a positive sign that he responded.

  193. Afrocity,

    What do you mean? Do you have something in mind about that?

  194. afrocity, on January 24th, 2009 at 9:37 pm Said:

    Lighthearted like Black poverty levels and abortion
    **********
    I did some research after you mentioned that before and it is interesting. My impression of the abortion demographics were based on the eighties and are now totally wrong.

  195. myiq: He didn’t see Ruby coming. I could never just buy into the conspiracy theory. Do you think for one minute that the Kennedy family would have let this pass if there had been more out there?

    Sometimes it just really “is what it is”.

  196. fif,

    I saw that you mentioned it. I wonder if that was behind Schumer’s magnificent introduction of Hillary at the confirmation hearing. He does seem to have gotten the message. Maybe he isn’t hopeless.

  197. Schumer is a media hound. He will go wherever the camera is.

  198. awesome editorial.

  199. BB,

    Nothing to see here, move along ;-)

  200. Is SOD still here. I found the Brokaw quote. It’s from a Brokaw segment on Morning Joe on 1/20/09:

    Tom Brokaw on with Joe Scarborough, MSNBC 1/20/09:

    BROKAW: The other night at a party, a man came up to me that I knew instantly (chuckles), and it was Mark Rudd who is a poster child for the —

    SCARBOROUGH: S.E.S.

    BROKAW: — sixties, and he formed the Weathermen after the protests at Columbia. And he grabbed me and said talking about the book in which General, uh, Powell appears, uh, Boom, the 1960s. He’s in it. He said, “You treated me very well. I liked the documentary as well. Keep talking about the importance of nonviolence.” He was one who said he wanted to launch a violent revolution against this country, and he said, “Use me as an example.” I don’t mind you doing that, because I’ve learned over the years.

    BROKAW: I just want to say one thing. Eh, having been in the South in the sixties and Los Angeles and Watts and northern urban areas, umm, uh, when we were evolving as a country. I’m thinking of all the bigots and the rednecks and all the people that I met along the way, and I’m saying to them, “Take this!”

  201. {{{{ afrocity is my hero! I love her brain filled with historical knowledge stemming from archival research }}}}

  202. Back on topic…I think the CK “thing” is sad. Carolyn has had the right instinct her whole life and stayed out of the “lime-light” and did her own thing. I think Teddy pushed CK into the Senate debacle and it was bad for CK and for the Kennedy family.

  203. Pat: he’s been pushing for Gillbrand BEHIND the scenes. He is a media hound, but credit where credit is due.

    And yes bb: his intro of HIllary at the confirmation hearings was one of the most genuine things I’ve heard from a politician in a long time, and you could tell she was genuinely touched.

  204. Aw shucks, SOD. There is an archivist in all of us.

  205. I for one would rather talk about substantive ” stuff”. Don’t we get enough entertainment from BO and his tribe?

  206. afrocity: And you should see my closets as proof of that. I have been meaning to clean them out for a couple of years now.

  207. Wasn’t it Taggles who was looking for that quote?

  208. The White House tapes are an amazing resource. Listening to LBJ and his advisors sitting in the oval office during the Gulf of Tonkin was very interesting. Another interesting tape was JFK talking to Ross Barnett during the “crisis” at U. Miss. The conversation was not flattering to JFK.

    Now we have the Blackberry Era and no records needing to be frozen.

  209. SHV: I haven’t read it yet, but apparently the New Yorker article linked makes that claim–that she was pushed into it against her instincts. Still, she is a grown woman and should know herself by now–especially because she has been around the viciousness of the press all her life. She should have known that it was inviting intense scrutiny and pettiness. How can a Kennedy not be aware of what to expect from the press and politics?!

  210. Pat,

    According to recent books based on the material released by the government, the Bobby Kennedy at least did participate in the coverup. There were many reasons behind that. There is an interesting book about Bobby’s efforts to investigate the assassination on his own, called “Brothers.”

    One of the reasons Bobby ran for President is that he wanted to reopen the investigation. That couldn’t be allowed, so he was murdered.

    Did you know that Earl Warren didn’t want to be involved in the investigation? LBJ blackmailed Warren into doing it because he needed someone with a spotless public reputation to be in charge. LBJ is on tape talking about what he said to Warren. A lot of information has become available in recent years and it hasn’t gotten a lot of coverage in the media.

  211. Yeah, despite his faults I really do like Schumer and his heart is in the right place.

    Bobby just went to a club!

    Afrocity, how I love you!

  212. PlainJain — We try to unwind a little on weekends.

    I think it’s time for a Party

  213. kb: you’re right. SOD mentioned it but it was taggles who wanted the source. Pass it on if you see her here.

  214. I for one would rather talk about substantive ” stuff”. Don’t we get enough entertainment from BO and his tribe?

    I agree!

    You know, part of me really feels sorry for CK…
    Movie back on!

  215. Can I put up the party thread?

  216. bb: I will order it because of your recommendation but I will need convincing regarding a conspiracy. Not that the govt is not capable of nefarious deeds.

  217. is someone preparing a new thread?

  218. I want to order the books that Afrocity recommended. I have such a pile of books to read and not enough time. And of course I spend most of my spare time here. I need an 8 day week and 30 hour days.

  219. SOD,

    Myiq was going to look for something to post on.

  220. “As the NYTimes shakes its tiny fists…”

    That about says it all for the once mighty, now mealy, nytimes. When you find yourself turning to the NY Post for less biased coverage you know that the old gray lady is now just a rotting corpse waiting to be buried.

  221. bb: That is what I have been doing lately, trying to reduce the pile of books I have accrued since we all started gathering here since Feb.

  222. I sent that quote to taggles.

  223. Thanks kb! You’re so efficient :)

  224. fif, on January 24th, 2009 at 9:48 pm Said:
    he should have known that it was inviting intense scrutiny and pettiness. How can a Kennedy not be aware of what to expect from the press and politics?!
    ***********
    Who knows what really happened but I can imagine the the dying Teddy, who has tried to carry the legacy of his three dead brothers, could make an argument that Caroline could not refuse.

  225. BB and Pat
    bostonboomer, on January 24th, 2009 at 9:48 pm Said:
    Pat,

    According to recent books based on the material released by the government, the Bobby Kennedy at least did participate in the coverup. There were many reasons behind that. There is an interesting book about Bobby’s efforts to investigate the assassination on his own, called “Brothers.”

    One of the reasons Bobby ran for President is that he wanted to reopen the investigation. That couldn’t be allowed, so he was murdered.
    ____________
    My post way above (7:36 PM) citing quotes from Mort Sahl’s book did hit upon why Bobby Kennedy went along with the coverup but did plan to investigate it more fully after he was president. pps 148=49

  226. SHV,

    That’s what I think. I honestly don’t think Caroline really wanted to do it. She’s probably very relieved. And she probably didn’t understand that Obama would throw her and Ted under the bus like everyone else after he had gotten what he needed from them.

  227. PlainJane,

    Mort Sahl was a brilliant guy.

  228. If she wanted to hide her financial affairs and her marital status, I don’t know how she expected to keep those things private. Maybe it slowly dawned on her that Obama couldn’t protect her from the fallout. And unfortunately, she isn’t skilled enough politically to fake her way through the mire.(like others we know)

  229. BB I am really surprised that Mort, only a comedian in my memory, really had the inside on lots of history of the time. He was fairly influential and had acceptability into some surprising circles (Nixon for example)

    According to Bobby’s biography by Schlesinger, Bobby had difficulty in school (learning disabled) and I have been led to believe that the family had one of his college roommates, whose name slips my mind, turtor him /The brilliant roommate was supposed to be from my hometown, or so my brother told me.

  230. tutor, that is

  231. plainjane,

    Come on up to the new thread!

  232. One practical reason to continue supporting Schumer is that he has real seniority in the Senate. He’s 2nd or 3rd in line for Senate Majority Leader. If someone wins against him in the primaries – we’ll end up with two fresh(wo)man Senators in NY!

  233. Will Bower posted a new group on Facebook about Hillary for President in 2016 that the country is in shambles and we need Hillary to fix it. Two posts made me laugh:

    1) Donna Dee (Nassau County, NY) wrote
    at 3:42pm on December 3rd, 2008
    I’d like her to be president, but i dont think that the country will be in shambles when she takes over, especially if obama goes for a 2nd term.

    2) Taj Magruder (Radnor High School) wrote
    at 6:28pm on December 23rd, 2008
    President Obama will serve magnificently for two terms…then we can expect another stupendous presidency with Secretary of State Hillary Clinton!
    These two presidencies will from the new Golden Age in America.

  234. From the New Torker link:

    “Before the Senate opportunity came along, she’d never been inclined to political arguments, never been one to pontificate about an issue.”

    From the NYTimes column:

    “A well-adjusted U.S. senator needs to combine a sincere interest in public policy with a joyful acceptance of the need to demean oneself while begging for votes and donations. But Caroline only seemed really enthusiastic about the first bit.”

    Maybe Larrissa and Gail need to speak to each other….

  235. And is the New Yorker article for real??? The gems in that:

    “I think she understood, as her mother did, that the first responsibility is motherhood and being a good spouse,” Paul Kirk, the chairman of the board of the John F. Kennedy Library Foundation, says.

    Lawrence O’Donnell says. “What you have is the daughter of a lobbyist, instead of the daughter of a former President or the son of a former governor. This is the hack world producing the hack result that the hacks are happy with.”

    – so the worth of a political official, esp a female political official, is who her *father* is/was??? Is worth now no longer measured by the individual’s own contribution?

    Richard Plepler said. “What have two-thirds of the Senate done before they got there? Served in the state legislature? You think that is a better qualification than her intellect, her breadth of experience, her ability to get things done for the state? I don’t think so.”

    – ummm….reading books and having lunches and ‘serving’ on school boards is more relevant experience than serving in the State legislature for the United States Senate??

    Al Sharpton says, referring to Carolyn Maloney, the downstate congresswoman. “Well, why didn’t you choose somebody that can get President Obama on the phone? He’s gonna have hard questions either way. So it’s almost like, what medicine do you wanna take?”

    – does the New Yorker SERIOUSLY agree with these people that Senators should be picked solely on non-merit considerations? I’m just sitting her with my jaw on the floor that someone actualy let this tripe go through and be published….isn’t all this massively unethical?

  236. The NY Post or NY Daily News reported yesterday that Caroline’s marriage has been in trouble (those rumors have been around for awhile) but also that she has been having an affair with “a top editor of the NY Times”. That’s why the editorial and reporters are falling all over themselves criticizing the fall of Caroline.

  237. Lynn:

    Rumors rumors rumors.

    Got pictures?

  238. Sulzberger is a hell of a lot more than a “top editor.”

  239. Wow, the Post and Daily News are actually naming the Times in the “marital troubles?” Ladies and gentlemen, fasten your seat belts! But I’m astounded that the editorial board is not more careful. If anyone starts naming names – everyone there is getting burned. I think Krugman needs to find another job pronto!

  240. I’m in moderation at 12:10.

  241. Great post RD, I do hope it is a tipping point. The Times is having a nervous breakdown.

    Regarding that New Yorker piece, once one gets past the insults to anyone who believes they should ask the voters for thier vote, the author seems to be saying this was all CK’s friend’s idea…..some friends. And the author offers no proof for all the Princesses wonderfulness she goes on and on about besides the testimony of Princess’s friends….hardly unbiased sources.

    It’s funny . Because CK was the daughter of a President, according to the likes of the idjit , O’Donnell , CK shouldn’t have to ask the NY voters for thier vote and it was unfair to that she might be forced to notice thier existence. But it seems to me when “carpetbagger” Hillary Clinton, a former first lady
    decided to RUN for the office, she was spat on , called power mad and expected to jump every hoop.

    Which was fine with Hillary, it would never occur to her NOT to ask the voters for thier support. What do these people think being an elected official is? It is dealing with people!

    And another thing, Hillary Clinton would never have allowed herself to be appointed to a Senate seat, right out of the White House and avoid the voters and campaigning ….ever.

  242. Oh, how could I miss this brilliant post?
    of course there’s the class issue – besides the sexism – Palin, Hillary vs Caroline treatment made it painfully clear. Commoners not allowed – this has been the motto for many many years. Bill Clinton crashed the gates and is still paying for it. Palin did and Gillibrand will as well – especially now that the Kennedys are in revenge mode

    http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2009/01/25/an-apoplectic-kennedy-family-goes-after-paterson/

  243. This is stellar, rd.

    The “tipping point” paragraph sums up everything, from this fiasco on back.

    I wonder who the hell these columnists think their readers are? There is a total disconnect and it is frightening and depressing. See, us poor unwashed masses, who (OMG) have poor unwashed children, work dirty jobs, that sometimes involve COWS, couldn’t possibly understand what our own needs are. Or what our aspirations should be, or who is best to represent us? Is this what we have become as a country? I feel like crying.

  244. Nice one, as ever!

    I saw this off the AP wire yesterday RD & Co. I loved what Ms. Gillibrand did in HARLEM.

    Looks like she got a standing ovation as a matter of fact.

    http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5joABL4fh2GBUPZt8b4wYt1u6PEAQD95TPL8O0

    As a West Coast Dem, she gets the sound of clapping hands!

    From 3,000 miles away.

    hugs, pumatribe!

  245. Guys, it’s ok to speculate on unsubstantiated rumors in the comments but we won’t put them on the front page.
    Just sayin’

  246. The posters her are really quite amazing….anything touched or spoken to by your Goddess Hillary is okay by you!! Gillebrand is NOT a progressive – for God’s sakes look at her record!! I really don’t care who Patterson picked, but for you all to be slamming those people who have the opinion that maybe she was not such a great choice is really ironic.
    you just can’t win – while Carolyn Kennedy probably did/does not have the fortitude to run for elected politics, she does have the intelligence and opinions that do reflect progressives’ agenda – down to the last one.
    but then again, you are not progressives – you are whatever Hillary says at the moment. Idiots full of hate for the new President and ANYTHING he looked at! (other than Hillary and Bill)

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