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    • Trump/Clinton Debate Open Thread
      I used to get paid to watch these things. I don’t any more.  So… I’m going to go read a nice novel in a coffee shop.  Please feel free to talk about the debate in comments.  I will, actually, be curious to hear what people have to say, just not willing to sit thru so […]
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A couple of observations:

1.) Trump seems to think he can be as wildly and stupidly provocative as he wants to be and he will suffer no dire consequences. I think this is probably true. He gets support from white supremacists and yet, I know some people who lean Trump who would not consider themselves racists. They just like the way he doesn’t hold back. So, I’m fairly confident that he could get the endorsement of NAMBLA and nothing bad would happen. Why is this? I think it’s because the average Trump supporter has been conditioned to contemptuously hate what they perceive as “liberals” more than they hate any other group of people in the country.

If they are pissing you off with their crazy ass support of dangerous gun nuts, racists and sexist assholes, they’ve done their work for the day.

2.) I met some people on Twitter who were freaking out that Hillary Clinton isn’t actively defending herself against every accusation of wrongdoingdishonestskullduggerylawbreakingindictment that pops up in the media. I tried to explain that it wouldn’t really matter what she or her surrogate said about the latest scandal of the day hour.  You either see through this as irrational media pursuit of Hillary for ratings or you don’t. There’s not a lot she can do to address it through the regular “get a surrogate on the TV box thing to defend her” type deal.

Hillary conspiracy theories are a little bit like 9/11 theories. They are completely resistant to actual facts.Journalists are convinced that a Hillary supporter is an old, crusty, uneducated, walker using granny who feebly shakes her bottle of geritol at Hillary on the TV without much enthusiasm. Protests to the contrary do not seem to penetrate reporters’ thick skulls. So, why bother? You’re never going to make Hillary cool to them and reacting to anything they say is a losing proposition. It always puts the campaign on the defensive and who wants to be constantly defending oneself? It’s exhausting.

And pointless.

This is not to say that there are not strategies to get around media bias and crazy ass supporters of the Trumpian variety. It’s just that reacting to it seems like a losing proposition.

The best defense is a good offense.

3.) One place that *might* be worth pushing buttons is Twitter. Many Hillary skeptics (let’s call them that to be nice for now) take to Twitter to disgorge the same stupid, tired old arguments against her. One I see constantly is the notion that the Tweeter doesn’t want a coronation of Hillary. This meme deserves a reply. Because becoming a queen depends on nothing but birth. People who spout this stupid meme are completely invalidating the hard work, experience and accomplishments of a woman who has been a lawyer, first lady of a state and country, a twice elected US Senator and a Secretary of State. What kind of message does that send to other accomplished women? I’d like to see more challenges, and I mean aggressive challenges to this meme.

4.) One last thing, Trump is carpet bombing on Clinton’s marriage, or so I’ve heard, since I don’t watch cable TV.

Is the carpet bombing more effective because of the saturation level or because of the level of disgust it provokes in the viewers? Provoking the sensation of disgust is a very effective propaganda tool and there are a lot of elderly people who find the idea of putting a dirty, urine spouting penis in their mouths the epitome of disgusting things.

Something to keep in mind as the election season goes on and as the audience is conditioned to be disgusted by Hillary while taking a pass on a creepy orange serial philanderer who reportedly doesn’t shake his moist little hands with his supporters.

He probably finds that disgusting.

5.) Ok, one more last, last thing. I think the key to taking down Creamsicle is to make him look like every other Republican political panderer. He’s got to get funding from somewhere and he’s got to learn to play nice with the politicians in his own party. Let us count the ways the system will rein him in, shall we?

Oh, and see if we can find video of him as Melania’s birth partner or doing something sufficiently Sensitive New Age Guy.

30 Responses

  1. Trump can carpet bomb away. The best way to deal with him is to ridicule him which is what Hillary has been doing.

  2. I think, at one point, there needs to be a speech/discussion about sexism/mysogonomy like the one Obama had about racism in ’08. I don’t know whether it should be by Hillary or a surrogate like Elizabeth Warren. I believe a lot of people don’t even recognize sexism and mysogony when they see it. The “coronation” you reference, a case in point.

  3. My tolerance level for lying memes is zero. I attack every one I see and ask one simple question: “Can you show me one actual fact, not an assertion, that Clinton is ” (insert whatever CDS is being trotted out). I have had several encounters with alleged smart people (who always want to beat me over the head with resumes) and have yet to encounter an actual factual argument. Of course, since I’m not working, I have time on my on-line hands and can spend a stray few minutes sparring with the deluded. I may never convince them of anything, but I have had an impact on lurkers. (I received an email from one dude who said he had warmed to Clinton after reading the back and forth— that was a warm and fuzzy moment.)

  4. Breaking News – Bloomberg: “Wall Street Betting on Clinton”

    Wall Street: Check
    CNN: Check
    OTA Broadcast Networks: Check:
    DNC, Wasserman Schultz, Party Grandee Emeriti: Check:
    Cable News Bloviators: Check

    It’s over. Nothing to see here. The Corporate Fascist State and its media have decided it for us plebs.

    The hags and geezers get their man installed. Good work, guys.

  5. The terrain which Trump wants to play on is that of personal insults, fabricated accusations, and his own carnival barker lies. The media, which never lets truth or rationality get in the way of ratings, allows him to do it. The stories of the day continue to be about him hurling personal insults at Hillary and her husband. At the very least, he and his campaign managers want to induce a fatigue which doesn’t want to go through all of the ’90’s stuff again, and which out of fear and desperation might turn to the huckster who promises the new panacea.

    Of course Trump needs to be strongly criticized for his racist and misogynist statements, and for the bully boy tactics. However, continuously doing that; making the major criticisms of Trump that he is crude and rude and insulting, doesn’t hurt him that much. What would hurt him is a persistent attack on his actual “plans” and his political views as stated in his speeches. The simple fact that the other day he suggested that the United States could reduce its debt by simply forcing its creditors to take some amount of pennies on the dollar, would potentially be enough to cost him any chance to win. Doing that would absolutely destroy America’s financial credit, andd would probably render our dollar almost worthless, and people’s savings destroyed. To me, that’s a more effective line of attack than talking about insults or bullying or misogyny for the next six months. Because there are a lot of people who either don’t care about that, or pass it off as campaign tactics.Enough of these people need to be shown what the implications of a Trump election would be for them and their families.

    There are at least a half dozen political statements by Trump that place him frighteningly beyond the limits of what any major candidate for president has ever said. Pulling out of NATO. Being indifferent to other countries obtaining nuclear weapons. He says these things, and they might get a little coverage; and then the media goes back to the “fun stuff,” which is the derogation of Hillary’s character. Her character should be defended, but I don’t think that this kind of thing gains us many votes at this stage. What might gain votes–as well as beilng so important for the safety of the country and its citizens–is to systematically dismantle all of Trump’s crackpot political views, and show people how dangerous it would be if he had the chance to implement them. Maybe that will be done as the campaign progresses; but right now it seems that Trump gets to control the dialogue, and virtually shield his own vast ignorance and disdain for actual policies of governance, by turning the election into another version of his TV show. If this race is a series of Trump accusations, and then Hillary defending herself from them, it becomes unsettling. Hillary’s great strength is her vast knowledge of complex issues, and ideas on how to solve them. So far, the media goes right past all of that, in favor of the seventh grade insult and rumor games they still haven’t gotten titred of playing.

  6. Could any of you describe H Clinton’s CURRENT health insurance policy?

    Apparently a few days ago she “re-evolved” to suggest Medicare Public Option for those aged 55-64, & an ACA Public Option for those aged 18-54 (if so, is this an “Option” to purchase Medicaid)? Am I understanding this correctly?

    Why not just have one Medicare Public Option for the aged 18-64 (the premium could be partially actuarially based on age)? Or better yet Canada-style MedicareForAll, that has been empirically proven to work better than the US system, & has been consistently advocated by Sanders for decades?

    Why should I believe H Clinton? H Clinton & her hacks like Prof K constantly brag about her being “experienced, wonkish, knows the details”, & dismissive of the actually wonkish detail-oriented Sanders as a lightweight. Yet AFAICT H Clinton is a Trump Jr in terms of continual flip-flopping, & NOT specifying detailed policies, albeit not as extreme of a flip-floppa or lightweight as Trump.

    I sincerely hope someone, be it Hillary voters, or the BigMedia (doubt it, they focus on WWF-ish trivialities such as the latest Trump childish insult or the latest H Clinton baseless accusation that Sanders is sexist) successfully get H Clinton to commit to actual details on her health insurance policy.

    I fear if H Clinton is not pinned down to details on health insurance policy, it will be easier for a Pres H Clinton in Jan 2017 to “pull an 0bama 2010 killing of the Public Option”, aka re-flip flop & kill any Medicare “Public Option”, be it for the 55-64 or the 18-54 age cohorts.

    Perhaps the H Clinton supporters are the best-positioned to actually get H Clinton to specify the details on her health insurance policy (and her policies in general)?

    Thanks in advance for any reply!

    • Sanders could not even explain his own plan and it failed in his home state of Vermont. However it may be that you have to lower the age and getting it down to 55 may be step one. You have to remember too that it took France 15 years to get their plan completely done. And you have to be able to get it through congress. Lowering the age to 55 might be something that can be easily done.

      I’d rather have someone under promise and over deliver than someone who over promises and comes up with nothing.

    • I see this proposal indicating that she has a better understanding of what people over 55 are facing. I haven’t read the details. I’ll get back to you on that.
      In the meantime, don’t expect perfection from any human being because you’re not likely to get it.
      Plus, if you voted for Obama in 2008, you really have no reason to complain. We could see his style of governance from a mile away. He was very quick to put his stamp on the crappiest health care policy we could have whipped up.
      We’ll never know how much better it could have been under Hillary. Imagine how thrilled she is to have to start fucking around with this mess when she takes office. Instead of a blank slate, she’s got to tinker at the edges around all these entrenched interests who locked cost controls out of the ACA.
      If I were her, I’d walk away from the whole deal and tell the delusional Obama supporters who are now insisting on perfection to go fuck themselves.
      Lucky for us, she’s not going to do that.
      As for Bernie, I’ve always liked Bernie. I think he has some great ideas. But he’s not going to catch up with her this year in a clean primary campaign.
      We have to implement plan B: getting as many down ticket dens elected as possible.
      I’d hate to ignore a great opportunity just because my guy didn’t win the golden ticket.

  7. Pro: Clinton is adding on to her existing health plan proposal by incorporating some of what Sanders has advocated for–as I recall, Sanders backers had urged her to do so (“we won’t vote for her unless she incorporates Sanders’ ideas!”), and she is being responsive. This latest idea is only a few days old; her campaign tends to update her website with proposal details relatively quickly.

    She doesn’t propose Medicare for All for All Ages because experience has shown Congress will not pass such legislation–they barely passed what we have now, and even that encountered stiff opposition. She knows, through her SoS experience, that one negotiates by putting forth potential policies that both sides can gain — at least somewhat — from. Otherwise, the other side has no interest in negotiating, and failure is the result.

    One does not succeed by attempting to ram policies down the oppositions’ throats–if one tries that, the opposition just vomits them out. End game. The President cannot dictate to Congress; this is a democracy. Congress legislates; the President doesn’t.

    Remember, she was the first person to take a national health care plan to Congress, first advocating for single payer. When that “radical idea” ran into intractable opposition (put kindly) in Congress (the pharmaceutical industry is the #2 largest, best-funded lobbying group of Congress), she continued to work on this issue. However, in the 90s, Congress would not get on board with ANY national healthcare plan, period.

    Now, our Congress is ridiculously partisan. Although Dems may maintain a majority in the Senate, the House is going to remain has it has been. There is no way Congress will approve single payer Medicare for All until that changes. Clinton has repeatedly said that she will not put forth, during the campaign, ideas that she knows have no chance of being implemented (even though that can get a lot of votes), as that would be misleading voters.

    She has been a practical person, not an idealist, when it comes to policy. I’d rather have someone in office who can and will achieve something by advocating and compromising when absolutely necessary, than someone who insists on their way or no way, which tends to fail as a strategy. You may not agree, and you’re free not to.

  8. I’m so weary of supporters of the two old white men remaining in the race pretending that we are about to elect an emperor or dictator-for-life, with absolute control over everything that happens in the country. Most of them couldn’t tell you who their congressperson is, let alone be bothered to vote down-ticket, let alone support a down-ticket candidate.
    I also refuse to respond to the baiters, sticking their chins out and making stupid accusations and screeching “what about THAT, huh?” My only response to the Sanders boys at this point is NRA, NRA, fricking NRA. If you support a bought-and-paid-for tool of the National Rifle Association, you are not a progressive, you are not a liberal, you are not hip, you are not remotely intellectual, and you should get your asses to the Trump rallies, where you belong. Quit expecting others to spoon-feed you information about everything; you’re not really bright enough to understand it, anyway. Half of you will be too busy partying next November to actually cast a vote for prom king, and half of the rest of you haven’t bothered to register to vote (WTF? overturning police cars doesn’t mean we get our way?)
    I know that you want everyone to be nice to the zombies, riverdaughter, but I’m so tired of them.

    • I didn’t like sexism and ageism in 2008, and I don’t like it any better in 2016. Are we going to hear about Bernie’s “cankles” next?

  9. Trump seems to think he can be as wildly and stupidly provocative as he wants to be and he will suffer no dire consequences.

    I think he doesn’t care. I think his motto has always been “there’s no such thing as bad publicity.” In fact, I think his entire campaign has been a publicity stunt that spiraled completely out of control. I certainly don’t think being the actual Republican nominee was his original intent.

    • I have days where I think it’s all a farce and he’s going to make a million dollars or more with a reality series called “How I exposed the GOP for what they really are”

      • I think he accidentally tapped into a vast reservoir of barely suppressed rage amongst the electorate. There are a lot of people out there who don’t care if they destroy the system, because they perceive the system as an enemy which has targeted them for decades. An awful lot of people have seen their overall standard of living decline quite precipitously over the last few years (RD among them) and some of them just don’t feel they have any stake in the political process anymore. They’d just as soon burn the whole thing down.

        I suspect most of them know Trump is a fraud, but that just doesn’t matter to them.

        • The people who want to burn everything down I think have become completely irrational. I don’t think they understand exactly what complete anarchy would be like or maybe they do and think they’ll come out the winners since a lot of them have an arsenal of guns. I could have predicted this happening years ago because Obama simply failed to fix what needed to be fixed unfortunately. I have always thought his priorities from the beginning were messed up. He should have worked 24/7 on the economy instead of spending a whole year on Obamacare.

          • I think you’re pretty much right on all counts – I think this is one of the reasons why Trump is walking back some of his more inflammatory rhetoric and trying to embark on a “charm offensive” with the media. I think, perhaps, he’s discovering the wisdom of that old H.P. Lovecraft quote, “Do not call up that which you cannot put down.”

      • Oh, and if you believe his spiel, he wouldn’t walk across the street for a million dollars since he would consider that “chump change” (Trump change?). In reality, I don’t think he’s anywhere near as rich as he claims (which is why he’s avoided releasing his tax returns), but I do think he likes being in the limelight.

        A lot.

        Almost as much as Obama.

  10. On #4, the media has already started saturation. Saw an article where the media is already playing sound bites/clips of tRump doing the marriage attacks, on average once every half hour over a 2 day period. Kinda reminds me of when CNN played the Monica and Bill hug at the top of every hour. Makes me sick of the media we have.

    • We truly need a Fourth Estate to have a democracy, not this bottom-line pseudo-celebrity excuse to hold the viewers’ eyes for the ads plus ever- thinning newspapers filled with short wire articles. Today I received links to articles in the WaPo in which journalists lament the coverage of Trump going forward because Trump is not consistent. In my opinion, the media brought this all on. Witness the lack of respect for the most accomplished candidate, and the non-vetting of BS so that should he pull a revolution in math, the Republicans will have open hunting season. Got to keep the horse rate going for dollars.

      Hillary will stay above the fray. The Donald creates a stench where ever he goes. Maybe there are some journalists who will vet this candidate and educate the voter. Hillary said that Americans take their vote for President seriously.

  11. From LA Times Clinton Endorsement: Hey, Mitch, look out the window.

    http://www.latimes.com/opinion/endorsements/la-ed-democratic-presidential-endorsement-20160426-story.html

    The Vermont senator has made the race more substantive and has forced his opponent to address issues that might otherwise have gone undiscussed, but in the end he has offered little reason to believe that he would be able to enlist recalcitrant Republicans in Congress in accomplishing his priorities. Rather, he told the editorial board of the Los Angeles Times, he would say to Senate Republican leader Mitch McConnell: “Hey, Mitch, look out the window. There’s a million young people out there now. And they’re following politics in a way they didn’t before. If you want to vote against this legislation, go for it. But you and some of your friends will not have your seats next election.” If only it were that simple.

    • This has been Bernie’s problem from the start. He has been in Vermont too long. If he really thinks 1 million people who support Sanders marching on Washington is going to change Mitch’s mind then he’s completely clueless. Mitch could care less about Bernie supporters marching on Washington. All he cares about is getting reelected in Kentucky.

      • 1 million supporters of Obama were supposed to march on Washington in just the same way. After the election, crickets.

        I just took a look at all of the national Clinton v Sanders polls (on 538), going back since the beginning of the year (there are many dozens). Only 3x did he prevail over her–and then, by only 1 and 2 points. Meanwhile, her support appears to have been wildly stronger all along.

        I was surprised by this, given the media and social media coverage implying the contrary.

  12. A couple of ideas re: running against Trump. He seems to be engaging in the tried and true method of accusing his opponent of engaging in the very behavior he’s actually guilty of. It’s kind of like watching kids fight,sort of failing their arms about hoping something will land. It’s also a tactic suggested by the tried and true Alinsky method. Also involves saying the same thing over and over again until people start to believe “it” must be true because so many people are saying so and who cares about facts anyway. This also plays into the current media’s methodology;they don’t have to leave their hotel rooms and actually go out and research or investigate a story.

    I think you treat the Donald just like any parent would treat a temper tantrum. Let him rant and rave for awhile,give him a time out and after he settles down a bit attempt a conversation. You don’t join him in his tantrum.you say repeatedly,” Once you’re in place where you can listen as well as talk,I’ll be happy to have a discussion with you.”This is how grown ups solve problems by both talking AND listening.Also,we must choose our battles not be suckered into him choosing which ,where and when confrontations take place.

    He’s going to keep throwing out this distracting shit so he never has to actually demonstrate or reveal how totaling unprepared his is for the office of President.

  13. I like to think that end of tonight’s Game of Thrones is a preview of the election results in November.

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