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What the hell was that last night?!?

Fifteen minutes of the rock’em sock’em robots was all I could take before it became less of a legitimate “debate” and more of a spectacle.

I don’t know if anything can stop Trump at this point and I’m not even going to try to talk people out of voting for him. Your vote is your own. No one else is entitled to it and no one else should play psychological manipulative mind tricks on you to try to force you thru the cattle shute. Same with Bernie voters. We like Bernie. If you don’t want to vote for Hillary  right now, or even ever, that’s ok. I’m not going to invalidate your anger, frustration or desire to live in a better America.

But I will say this to Trump voters and this is just my opinion: Trump seems very motivated by winning but not so much by governing.

Let’s say he wins. We are the biggest, scariest superpower on the planet. There are many areas of the world that depend on us remaining strong and stable both economically and militarily. Whether or not you feel the establishment has let you down, and I would argue that it has, for everyone, the entity that is called The United States of America still has to function to keep the world steady. We have our fingers in too many pies to not keep it together.

So, the next president is going to have to be good at many different things, not just winning

In the past two decades, the establishment that we all love to hate, has done a really good job of preventing true agents of change from making it to the White House. Or they’ve obstructed that person or persons.

If you really want to take them down, concentrate your efforts at winning back Congress and the Supreme Court.

Divided government isn’t working. It’s impoverishing the middle class and making the world poorer and less safe for everyone.

To effect true change, let one party take control for four years. If you really like the idea of a government that serves the few and focuses almost exclusively on military activities and protecting the rich, vote Republican. If you want some semblance of normalcy with a functioning government, less war and getting back what you put into your work, vote Democratic.

But please look past just winning for winning’s sake. We need a path forward.

 

25 Responses

  1. I confess to both enjoying and being appalled by the ironies of this campaign season.

    In 2008, despite winning a majority of primary voters, Hillary was kept from the nomination by an alliance of mostly young white Democratic activists and black voters who chose symbolism over substance (an alliance backed by Wall Street money who knew exactly which Democrat was friendliest to their interests). At the same time I warned that an anti-liberal Democrat like Obama in the WH would push the GOP even more to the extreme right.

    Now, 8 years later, after Obama disappointed those who saw him wrongly as a liberal, Hillary is again opposed by mostly young white Democratic activists, forcing her to embrace Obama and rely on the exact black symbolic attachment to Obama that cost her their votes 8 years ago. And minus those voters, (and to be fair, the Wall Street money), Bernie demonstrates the limits of the Obama coalition of 2008.

    Meanwhile, having failed to elect two Right-wing candidates to the WH in 2008 and 2012, the GOP has finally gone off the cliff, apparently intent on nominating someone so far to the right it scares even many Republicans (which won’t stop them backing him in the end).

    Which doesn’t, alas, mean Trump is doomed to lose. Apart from black voters, Obama isn’t that popular, and Hillary’s being forced into his arms could cost her, especially if the economy collapses between now and November. If there is a Revolutionary mood in the country, it lies among Trump supporters, not Bernie’s.

    In 2000 when W. “won” I said, Better hope nothing like a major terrorist attack happens in the next four years. In 2004, after listening to Obama’s speech at the Democratic Convention, I said, Better hope he never becomes President. In 2008 and 2012 I warned there was much worse than McCain or Romney waiting in the wings. In sum, I’m gaining a lot of sympathy for Cassandra: seeing the future and having no influence over it is not as much fun as one might wish.

    • {{gasp}}
      You nailed it.

    • Yep. Ever since 1999, it’s been “Block Bill Clinton’s Third Term” (ie Gore, now Hillary). By using Wall Street power to support symbols like Nader, Obama, Sanders.

      Nader’s “Vote your hopes not your fears” should have been discredited by Bush II, but I haven’t heard any Nader supporters saying so.

    • I though Clinton in 2008 was prevented from receiving the nomination she won on the merits of the elected delegate count by a Dem Party leadership conspiracy led by Pelosi and Reid and others to deny her even the courtesy of a floor count. Am I wrong about that? Because if I am right on that technical fact, and she reached the convention day with an actual majority of elected delegates, that would show that the black and young activist voters were not able to deny her the nomination. It was the multi-millionaire D-Party leaders who did that at the convention itself.

      Since a lot of early-primary/caucus Sanders supporters are college or immediate-post-college post-students who were too young to vote for Obama in 2008 and maybe even in 2012, they were never part of the Obama coalition anyway. They are a harbinger of newer unhappy cohorts of rising voters . . . . maybe many, maybe few.

      • She went to the convention with Florida and Michigan at half strength.But the Sunday before the convention started, the credentialing committee restored those delegates to full voting power. By then, the damage was done. The narrative the media went with was that Obama won in a landslide. This was absolutely not true. When all was said and done, Obama won with something like a 17 vote lead, all of them could be accounted for by the 54 delegates he got in MI where he wasn’t even on the ballot. Four of those 54 delegates were Hillary’s.
        So, she actually won the nomination.
        Both candidates had legitimate reasons for a floor fight. I suspect that if the lead was on Hillary’s side, Obama would have challenged her and gotten one. Since it was on Obama’s side, the party used some very unethical strong arming tactics to bully and harrass delegates into changing their votes until they were certain Hillary wouldn’t challenge.
        Then came the infamous roll call where California, which has a first roll call committment, deferred to other states. Pennsylvania also didn’t get to vote. It was my state of NJ, represented at the convention by banker turned governor Jon Corzine, who all on his own decided to give all of our votes to Obama even though Hillary won the state by 10 percentage points.
        Pelosi banged the gavel, the balloons fell and they played Love Train, a song that I can’t listen to anymore without feeling physically ill.

  2. It’s Hillary or the abyss.

    • LOL!!

    • The long-term concern I have is that eventually one of these Radical Right people is likely to get elected. It took GW Bush about six months to squander the surplus the Clinton Administration had built up, and start the piling up of massive deficits again. And it would be far worse, should anyone on the Republican ballot, or indeed anyone on their ballot in a decade, get elected President. They would have no qualms about trying to undo every single thing accomplished by any Democrat going back to FDR and Wilson.

      I guess the only real hope is that these people can be so marginalized, that they could not win a national election. But with the media enabling them, this is fairly doubtful. The biggest problem with Obama’s administration is that he never cared to attack the basic principles of today’s Republican Party. He kept praising them for getting “98% of what (they) wanted,” when they kept threatening to not raise the debt ceiling, if Obama let the Bush tax cuts expire. Back in 2008, he gave an interview with a Las Vegas paper, in which he praised the Republicans for having come up with most of the good ideas of the last few decades. He was so determined to run against the Clintons (“we don’t want to revisit the battles of the ’90’s”), and appear a transcendent national figure, that he actually allowed the right wing to flourish,and even become more radical. Now they have the Congress, the state legislatures, and virtually everything else. And the populace doesn’t really even know why they are so awful, except for the racism and anti-minority aspect, which might directly affect them. As to the economics or anything else, we never hear about that.

      So now Hillary has to make this distinction. The difference between Hillary and Trump is not kindness vs. belliigerence, or inclusion vs. exclusion, thought those are of course present. Hillary has to do what she can to win, but I do hope that she really takes out after the entire Republicant Party, and what they stand for, which is essentially corporate profits over any other consideration, including human health, lives, and the future of the planet.

  3. “OBAMA POKES TRUMP WITH ‘AMERICA’S PRETTY DARN GREAT RIGHT NOW'”

    Will they please stop sending fastballs right over the plate for der Donald to hit? For a lot of folks it’s not so great And Mittens calling Trump a fraud yesterday was funny . The Trump campaign is fueled by an intense ain’t establishment feeling…please stop sending out worn out life long members to point out the kettle is black. Ok?

  4. >You nailed it.

    Thanks. If I may return the compliment, so did you in your recent comments on Libya. Putting aside that in both Libya and Syria Obama did NOT follow Hillary’s advice (being always a day late and a dollar short), the idea that either country was just fine until we messed it up is absurd.

  5. RD, I agree having a Democrat in the White House is more important than which Democrat. But could Bernie’s efforts result in a Republican getting it instead of either Democrat?

    If nominated, could he win in November? If not nominated, might he run as Independent, splitting the November vote?

    • I’ve wondered this as well. He’s said in the past he would consider an independent run, and launched his next Senate run as an independent. It is extremely unlikely he can get enough delegates now to win. His poll numbers have been slipping since Tuesday. Because he has said there is not much difference between the parties, it wouldn’t surprise me if he lit a bomb under the Dems, which would hand the win to the GOP, who are considering their own third party options today… What a year…

      Increasingly, I feel Hillary is the only adult in the room.

    • If Bernie is nominated, which is not going to happen judging by the voting so far, he would not win because the election would be angry white voters on the left vs. angry white voters on the right. Been there done that before and got the T-shirt. It was not pretty. Bernie won’t run as independent. Heck, Bernie doesn’t seen to like campaigning that much in the primaries and you can’t just talk about one subject in a general election. The real danger of an independent run is on the GOP side. If the GOP does not nominate Trump I’m willing to bet he runs as independent. Therefore they really have to nominate him if he has the most delegates.

      • You know, back in 2008, I used to really hate it when people would tell me that Hillary was behind and couldn’t catch up and we weren’t even half way through the primary season.

        Why don’t we just let Bernie’s voters go vote for their guy and see what happens? We can’t predict the future with any great accuracy. No one predicted that Trump would get this far.

        And I see no harm in having Bernie tell americans what his vision of the country is, do you? We don’t hear enough of it. In fact, Bernie is running the campaign that Hillary should be running.

        So, let Bernie’s voters vote without any reservation. They deserve to have their priorities recognized.

        • I understand that. However Bernie has not expanded his appeal past upper income white voters. He has the white Obama voters from 2008 for the most part, the Bros before Hos crowd. Hillary at least had 1/2 of the party in 2008, working class whites and Hispanics. Bernie does not even have that. But I’m all for him just going on. I just wish he had different online supporters.

          • Maybe Bernie’s appeal is due to the fact that many people didn’t know who he was until this year. I mean, WE know who he is but that’s because we are political junkies. Most people aren’t.
            The other thing is that in spite of what the CW is, the Clintons have always had strong ties to the black community. What was tragic about Obama’s run in 2008 wasn’t that he deliberately ripped their reputation to shreds, it’s that his candidacy masked how much support Clinton had there.
            Let’s put it this way, if the nomination had gone the other way, there’s a good chance Hillary would have gotten those votes, or at least HALF of them. Because, as it turns out, there are male African Americans and FEMALE African Americans. The party had to make it sound like this was some monolithic group of voters but the truth is, Clinton would have gotten them all back by the general election, especially if she had chosen Obama as her running mate. It was a win-win.

            The party chose to take the money though and that came with the condition that Obama was their guy. No one will convince me otherwise. And it pretty much turned out as I thought. He was captured by the finance industry and has turned out to be a incredibly weak president.

          • How many college and post-college Sanders supporters with debt burdens and no good jobs or maybe no jobs at all are upper income? If certain Clinton supporters wish to practice the same deceitful nastiness they enjoy accusing Sanders supporters of, they will sow and reap the same deep and lasting hatred that they please to accuse Sanders supporters of fostering.

            Accusing Sanders supporters of being a so-called “bros before hos” crowd is playing the mysoginy card in order to try to shame them and extort their compliance with your wishes. It will not be forgotten and it will not be forgiven.

          • According to November 2008 exit polls, Hillary would have got more votes (overall, not just from AAs) than Obama, beating McCain by about 5% more than Obama did. And exit polls couldn’t ask the people who stayed home.

  6. I get that one can not see what one doesn’t believe. And the more beliefs one has limits the options of seeing anything in other than simply black or white. Black people think Obama is great (quite often). And some women think Hillary is the best. What happened 8 years ago is history, just like the other presidential contest. Let it go. Anger like what Trumps is always spewing doesn’t look any better when it’s directed to help promote a cause for a part of the American populous. We don’t need more racism, ageism or sexism. And do we want more bad trade pacts that kill GOOD American jobs? Isn’t that what the Hillary & Bill is all about? And are not they like most ALL these other politicians about in centralizing power. Kind of like the DNC & Debbie Wasserman killing the democratic process & even-handed political process. So is unfairness that I read about here in 08 different than the unfairness that’s join on now with the super-delegates & the DNC’s Debbie Wasserman? Do you think this will strengthen the future party’s appeal, especially to the young people who are increasingly needed to win all up & down the ticket? Is it experience or a desire to dominate that compels a person to support an invasion into Iraq & also Libya, or is it about a lack of judgment & wisdom. How strong is Hillary (or any neo-liberal or conservative) against climate change?

    I find it disturbing to know that the proponents of the Canadian gas pipeline know that Hillary is just simply campaigning & will change her tune & will later on support the pipeline. And like wise will support the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade give-away agreement. Is this NOT a conservative Republican agenda? When campaigning to get votes (at any cost) & saying what people want to hear & to offend the least amount of people by the process of triangulation, does that show sincere passion or just a way of selling out to get elected & power to do whatever might be imagined, such as centralizing power, such as moving away from currency & only using micro-chip plastic credit cards that are controlled by the big banks, and also by having a world wide economic & monetary system which takes power away from countries & their citizens, like the U.S.by the TPP trade agreement. And with the European Union & the Euro, is this not more inching ever closer to one world government where corporations don’t compete but conspire to dominate the world as a cartel? Where it takes a Edward Snowden to reveal the length the governments will go to in controlling…everyone & everything, which include women, childbirth, who votes, equal pay, the environment, climate change, the U.S. Supreme Court, etc. Elizabeth Warren is not running at this time, so would any woman as president ensure a greater liberal democracy, such a Margaret Thatcher, Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter, Michelle Backmann, Phyllis Schlafly, Golda Mier, Ferdinand Marcos, Queen Mary I of England. Holy cow! So,…it’s NOT the plumbing – it’s the person. Duh. Bill got lucky being a period of economic growth, but we are somewhere else now with a looming economy failure.

  7. Well, R U Reddy all I can tell you is what polling says. Apparently you have had no contact with the Reddit Bernie supporters that stalk you on twitter and all over the internet. I frankly would rather not converse with these supporters. No, I’m not playing the “misogyny” card. That’s always what the Bros before Hos crowd says every time you point out their obnoxious garbage. They are all about character slander much like Obama supporters from ’08 were and sexist remarks. It’s not even Hillary that has gotten their wrath. They are now blaming Elizabeth Warren for Bernie losing in MA and are angry at her for not doing what they want. Apparently when you demand a woman do something like endorse your candidate the little woman is supposed to automatically obey. It was so bad Warren had to clean up her facebook page.

    • Thanks for your concern about the trolls. I mean that sincerely. But katiebird and I have been dealing with them since 2008 and we find squashing them highly entertaining. They think we’re not smart or young enough to know how to prevent them from posting here. We do. Sometimes, I let their comments stay because deleting one might mess up a thread but I have no problem editing their comments to make them look even stupider than they are.
      We used to attract a better caliber of troll. The Obot operatives from 2008 were pretty sophisticated. They tried guilt and all kinds of interesting tricks. Turns out many of them came from the liberal arts departments of state universities.
      Our self-identified “creative class” is a sorry bunch of people.
      And then there were the scary trolls who threatened us with gross bodily harm. We sent them immediately to the spam filter.
      My theory of trolls is they’re black pixels on your monitor. They can not hurt you. And the Internet is a great equalizer especially for women as long as you maintain your personal boundaries and don’t let their comments get under your skin. A lot of women have a hard time doing this. But if they take the time that the Internet gives them, they can obliterate trolls with ease.

    • You are correct. I don’t have twiiter and I don’t have facebook. So I know nothing about the kind of supporters who do twitter and facebook. What percent of the people who have voted for Sanders so far in caucuses and primaries are they? What percent of the people who have sent in donations to the Sanders campaign are they?

      But it’s good to get clarification that you are not actually considering the Sanders group to be a bros before hos crowd, the way your previous comment said they were. Its good to get clarification that you in fact realize the bros before hos community is a small separate pack of twitterites and facebookers. As long as we remain clear on the difference.

  8. I get that one can not see what one doesn’t believe. And the more beliefs one has limits the options of seeing anything in other than simply black or white. Black people think Obama is great (quite often). And some women think Hillary is the best. What happened 8 years ago is history, just like the other presidential contest. Let it go. Anger like what Trumps is always spewing doesn’t look any better when it’s directed to help promote a cause for a part of the American populous. We don’t need more racism, ageism or sexism. And do we want more bad trade pacts that kill GOOD American jobs? Isn’t that what the Hillary & Bill is all about? And are not they like most ALL these other politicians about in centralizing power. Kind of like the DNC & Debbie Wasserman killing the democratic process & even-handed political process. So is unfairness that I read about here in 08 different than the unfairness that’s join on now with the super-delegates & the DNC’s Debbie Wasserman? Do you think this will strengthen the future party’s appeal, especially to the young people who are increasingly needed to win all up & down the ticket? Is it experience or a desire to dominate that compels a person to support an invasion into Iraq & also Libya, or is it about a lack of judgment & wisdom. How strong is Hillary (or any neo-liberal or conservative) against climate change?

    I find it disturbing to know that the proponents of the Canadian gas pipeline know that Hillary is just simply campaigning & will change her tune & will later on support the pipeline. And like wise will support the Trans-Pacific Partnership free trade give-away agreement. Is this NOT a conservative Republican agenda? When campaigning to get votes (at any cost) & saying what people want to hear & to offend the least amount of people by the process of triangulation, does that show sincere passion or just a way of selling out to get elected & power to do whatever might be imagined, such as centralizing power, such as moving away from currency & only using micro-chip plastic credit cards that are controlled by the big banks, and also by having a world wide economic & monetary system which takes power away from countries & their citizens, like the U.S.by the TPP trade agreement. And with the European Union & the Euro, is this not more inching ever closer to one world government where corporations don’t compete but conspire to dominate the world as a cartel? Where it takes a Edward Snowden to reveal the length the governments will go to in controlling…everyone & everything, which include women, childbirth, who votes, equal pay, the environment, climate change, the U.S. Supreme Court, etc. Elizabeth Warren is not running at this time, so would any woman as president ensure a greater liberal democracy, such a Margaret Thatcher, Sarah Palin, Ann Coulter, Michelle Backmann, Phyllis Schlafly, Golda Mier, Ferdinand Marcos, Queen Mary I of England. Holy cow! So,…it’s NOT the plumbing – it’s the person. Duh. Btw, as it turns out all of friends are intelligent & knowledgeable (& also educated with a college degree). None of my women friends say they got anything out of the feminist movement & all of my friends are Bernie supporters – as far as I know. Ah, the kind of people who can sustain freedom & democracy!

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