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OccupyWallStreet: Naomi Klein explains it all

I saw this video at Suburban Guerilla (H/T Susie Madrak).  It’s an easy to understand explanation of what OccupyWallStreet is all about from Naomi Klein, author of The Shock Doctrine.  The clip is about 7 minutes long.

I am not surprised at the right wing rhetoric that is permeating the blogosphere today.  Here are some of the memes that are mischaracterizing OccupyWallStreet:

1.) It’s a mob.  I think Jon Stewart dispatched this meme Wednesday night with a quick look at how the Tea Party got its name.

2.) It’s all a bunch of college students who are sucking off of their parents.  They want free everything.  This is not true and I have the pictures to prove it.  There are a ton of people over 30.  If you go, you will find someone your age, I guarantee it.  As for college students sucking off their parents, I don’t know what some of these people do for a living but if their parents want to support them in a protest, what’s it to you?

3.) They’re just a bunch of lazy bums.  Ahhh, yes, I can practically smell Glenn Beck and Rush Limbaugh from here.  There ARE a lot of unemployed people there.  I was one of them.  But the city does have 3G coverage, even if it sucks for a large metropolitan area.   (Which makes me wonder why the infrastructure is so bad in the US) So, while you march, you can keep track of your job database search hits and take phone interviews.  The unemployed would much rather have a job, money, their houses, health insurance.  But all they have is time on their hands and righteous indignation.  So, they help out at a protest and help build a movement.  They do it so you don’t have to.  Thank them.  Clearly, this is a mean spirited attack on working people who through no fault of their own became unemployed.  It’s designed to make us feel bad and embarrassed.  Butcha know what?  “No one can make you feel inferior without your consent”, as Eleanor Roosevelt said.  I don’t really give a flying f%^* what Rush or Glenn or any other moron has to say.  There are a lot of extremely intelligent and hardworking people unemployed right now so I am in very good company.

4.) They want free food, education, housing, healthcare.  I don’t think that’s true.  I think they want to enjoy the fruits of their labor and they don’t want to be exploited by the 1% anymore.  And when you think about it, Americans pay a lot in taxes compared to other countries.  I know Americansdon’t know it because how many of us get to work in another country?  What I mean by a lot is that for the amount of money you pay, you get relatively little.  A comparable amount in a developed European country will get you basic healthcare, a college education at a very affordable cost, maternity benefits Americans can only dream about and many other things.  And it’s not like Americans aren’t already distributing the wealth.  NJ taxpayers get 60 cents back in federal assistance for every dollar we send to Washington.  States that are the reddest and most unequal get far more than their dollars worth of taxes.  You don’t hear New Jerseyans screaming their heads off that Alabamians should join the 21st century but maybe you will in the near future.

I’m sure there will be more.  The right never misses an opportunity to turn Americans agains themselves.  Remember that kid who survived a car crash with severe head injuries and lived only because his poor parents enrolled him and his sister on SCHIP?  Yeah, I think the right called him a blood sucking slacker too at some point.  Fox, Rush, Glenn, and the Republican leadership have absolutely no shame.  They will smear anyone who tries to get between them and the 1%.

But those of you who have already bought into that narrative, what’s in it for you?  After the right uses you to strike back at the occupation, what will it give you?  Petty power over people who are gay or immigrant or female?  Is the right going to take on the bankers?  Put your adult kids to work?  Make your insurance premiums cheaper?  Are you going to get a break on your property taxes?  That last one is hillarious to anyone living in NJ under the Christie regime.  You dodged a bullet when Christie decided not to run for president.  Go ask Rush or Glenn what you get.  We’ll wait.

168 Responses

    • Oh cripes, myiq, it’s *Portland* for fuck’s sake, hipster paradise where young people go to retire.

      • Oregon is filled with old draft-dodgers who ran out of gas on their way to Canada.

        • Portland’s a generation behind that. It’s hipsterville on steroids. With the worst fashion sensibility I have ever witnessed. East Coast fashionistas would a) shit and b) have a heart attack in downtown Portland.

          • Oh, I don’t know about that. Have you seen the standard teenage girl uniform yet? Short shorts and Uggs? It’s a statement.

          • I lived in suburban LA for 3 years one block from the local high school. Does that answer the question? 😀

    • Yes, myiq, all of the occupiers are exactly like this guy and you will never find a potsmoker at a Tea Party rally. Everyone who loves Palin works at a job and they work without taking breaks. If they have to pee, they just grit their teeth and hold it until their 14 hour shift is over. And they are employed because they are just so damn good at whatever it is they do and their bosses know how indispensable they are. There isn’t one person who stays at home. They’re all virtuous too. They fear god and nothing bad ever happens to them because they follow the rules and stay out of trouble.
      They would know propaganda when they hear it. They’re not mean spirited and heartless towards lazy ass unemployed people just because they hear that message from their preferred media outlets 24/7. They’re TAXpayers. It doesn’t matter that as an unemployed person, I paid more in taxes in the last 6 months than some of them make in a year. The fact that they are still working gives them a right to act like total assholes towards people who are still footing the bill for all they hold dear.
      And they have healthcare, unlike my friend who has cancer and has been out of work for 18 months. He’s worried about losing his house but damn it, it’s his fault for getting in the way of a merger. I’m sure he deserved it when the company shuttered his site and didn’t save even one of the 600 jobs. It’s his problem that he’s stuck in the northeast where there are no jobs.
      Well, you are the company you keep, myiq.
      And you call me gullible.

      • The women in the Tea Parties are all at home.

      • Not only that, but each and every last one of them had to walk to school 20 miles in howling blizzards year round while fighting off roving packs of sabertooths with their bare hands, goldangit!

        And it was uphill both ways! 😛

        • I’d better explain that was a response to RD’s post, not 1539days’s post.

  1. RD: congratulations on scoring a direct hit on the hornets’ nest over at the Crawdad Hole. They’re still buzzing around. 😉

    • I’m kind of surprised that myiq is intentionally attracting them. It’s like the smart kid hanging out with the bad crowd at school. That’s not going to end well.

      • Many of them have allowed their disgust with Obummer and the Dem Establishment to send them into the arms of the VRWC. I left No Quarter when I saw that was what was happening there.

        • That is a bookmark I got rid of too.

        • I could see that happening to some of the former PUMAs from a mile away. There are only two legitimate reasons to dislike Obama: 1.) he ran an unethical, sexist campaign using banker dollars to pay off the DNC superdelegates and ruining the party’s election system and 2.) he is not a very good president. Those two reasons are linked to one another IMHO.
          There is no other legitimate reason to dislike Obama. He’s was elected fair and square in the general election (if not in the primary). His skin color is irrelevant. He is an American citizen who was born here and his father’s nationality does not count when it comes to qualifying for president. Your father could have been Osama bin Laden but if you were born in Honolulu after 1959, you can be president. It doesn’t matter if he occasionally takes vacations. Being president is very hard work and it’s harder when you have zero talent for politics. I don’t begrudge him or his family time off.
          If you don’t like him being president, don’t vote for him. I’m not voting for him. Yes, it’s too bad that some people feel they have nowhere else to go. I’ll find someone on the ballot I can vote for or I’ll write in Hillary’s name.
          But the insanity that some former Democrats are experiencing at places like NoQuarter and the Crawdad Hole is a pointless expenditure of energy. It only emboldens the right and makes like more difficult. The cause and effect are clear to everyone but them.

          • Exactly why do you think we dislike him?

          • I could add a few legit reasons such as corruption and serving the same interests W did (not a very good president implies incompetence, but I think it’s doing what he was paid for). But yeah for the non-legit reasons. Embracing those kinda removes credibility – someone who would hang on anything, opposite arguments if necessary – just to be against someone.

          • You forgot:

            3) He’s a crook

          • He’s an alleged crook. I’d rather evaluate his performance based on the data that is already available.

        • I don’t doubt your reasons but some of your regulars? Yeah, they’re irrational.

      • I am the bad crowd.

      • Ditto monster!

    • If you don’t mind being in the minority, it’s cool.

      • Ralph speaks truth. I’m enjoying being one of the local DFHs. 😈

      • I’ve always said that I want to make it safe to be unpopular. I don’t mind being a glee kind of loser.
        If myiq wants to smoke in the boy’s room and skip half his classes just so he can look badass, he’s welcome to it. But that crowd will not be graduating.

        • I’ve always said that I want to make it safe to be unpopular.

          Only if they are just like you.

          • I doubt that anybody is just like me. And if that were true, you wouldn’t have lasted here as long as you did. Do you know how many times a day I had to stick up for you?? I got really sick of climbing the watertower with a bucket of paint to defend your honor.
            But you took it too far when you defended Mary and went on about Mrs. Mavericky.
            Pushing the envelope and provoking a negative response is your specialty. But I have enough of that crap at home with a 15 year old.

          • Yeah, I defended Mary. Because she’s entitled to her opinion just like you and me. You told her that her point of view wasn’t welcome here, just like you told RalphB and WMCB.

            As for “Mrs. Mavericky,” I said it was wrong to try to blame the Giffords shooting on her. But you insisted otherwise.

          • What you did was you told Mary that it was ok to disrespect me on my own blog. She’s free to go elsewhere to be a pain in the ass, just like the trolls. What she isn’t allowed to do is bad mouth me and think she can get away with it.
            And no, her POV wasn’t welcome here. The blog was getting overrun with too many conservative voices who I do not agree with. There is no shortage of conservative blogs and I see no reason why I need to listen to that crap. It’s already all over the place. I have no obligation to accommodate her. I don’t accommodate people who insist on being irrational no matter what. She’s entitled to her opinion- somewhere else. It looks like you’re stuck with her now.
            Mrs. Mavericky did not pull the trigger but she added a voice of legitimacy to the over the top batshit crazy insane and pushing the envelope violent rhetoric that permeates right wing noise machines. And for that, she is responsible for the company she keeps and the stupid and careless images she posts on her website. I don’t blame her for the shooting. I blame her for pandering to the nutcase base and then making excuses for it. Each incident that goes unchecked eases the burden of responsibility that we are supposed to have for the physical welbeing of people who we disagree with. And if Loughner wasn’t influenced by her particular acts of negligent pandering, that doesn’t mean that she hasn’t influenced others to behave irrationally.
            Too bad she didn’t distance herself from that shit to begin with but she didn’t. Very poor judgement. It looks like I wasn’t the only one who thought so. You were on the wrong side of this issue.

          • Who’s “Mrs. Mavericky”? 😕

          • She who must not be named. Her name will get you thrown in moderation. Even I made that mistake a couple of times.
            This is not a pro-Mrs. Mavericky site and it never was. For awhile, we tried not to alienate Mrs. Mavericky’s fans because some of us understood the anger that drove them to her. But they started taking over the site so we banned her name.

          • Is she a former governor of the largest state in the USA?

          • Affirmative

  2. I am hopeful and happy that OWS is going on . Making plans to go to Asheville NC with some friends to join an event there this weekend. Put our 2 cents in and be counted so to speak. Really getting sick of the naysayer’s who have done nothing but complain and drone on about why they know OWS will fail . There are now 5 less blogs I visit daily because they refuse to actually support an honest, grassroots, progressive movement. Doing something is better than doing nothing. I hope .:)

    • FDR said it best:

      The country needs and, unless I mistake its temper, the country demands bold, persistent experimentation. It is common sense to take a method and try it: If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something. The millions who are in want will not stand by silently forever while the things to satisfy their needs are within easy reach. We need enthusiasm, imagination and the ability to face facts, even unpleasant ones, bravely. We need to correct, by drastic means if necessary, the faults in our economic system from which we now suffer. We need the courage of the young. Yours is not the task of making your way in the world, but the task of remaking the world which you will find before you. May every one of us be granted the courage, the faith and the vision to give the best that is in us to that remaking!

      Astroturf, my sweet Aunt Fanny.

      • It definitely doesn’t smell like astroturf.
        And then I have to ask myself: If Obama or the DNC were behind the occupations, would he have allowed so much misery to happen in the last three years and stood by and done nothing only to conjure up a grassroots looking organization from the left that would conveniently push him in the direction he always wanted to go?
        I’m thinking, NO. For one thing, it would be so diabolical that if it were discovered, his career would be over in politics. For another, the Suskind book has the ring of truth to it. Too much of it fits with observable data. In that case, he’s an unfocussed operator with a strong sense of self reverence and no talent for putting his ideas into action.
        So, I’m inclined to believe that it is what it is. Organic and open source. And brilliant. There are a lot of good minds behind this. They’re not stupid. The movement is being run by geeks.

        • I think the fact that it started at Wall Street is the give away. It could only have started at Wall Street to work, which is precisely why it has to be astroturf. See if someone hit the off button on your spidey senses.

          • Obummer the faithful toady of Wall Street has turned on his masters?

            In what parallel universe? 😛

          • Of course not. Obama loves Wall Street. Why would you think otherwise. How on earth can OWS ever hurt Wall Street?

          • I’ve apparently misunderstood you, Cap’n. Who, then, do you think is behind the astroturf, if it truly be that?

          • Slamming yourself against an impenetrable wall is a great distraction if you can arrange it.

          • Who do you think? Get progressives all worked up, focused on something other than the WH. Let’s see, I know, the Wall Street boogyman. Don’t look at the man behind the curtain. Give Dorothy some tasks to perform, that will keep her busy…

          • It has to be Wall Street for perfectly good reasons other than astroturf.
            1.) Regardless of who is in office, this is as Naomi Klein would say, “the scene of the crime” and it reverberates not just here but all around the world. The image of a small sliver of the island of Manhattan against the rest of the world is a powerful one. If you can’t make the authorities yield to let you protest on Wall Street proper, that’s also a powerful message. It means the bankers are in charge and it continues to define the nature of the beast. If you *can* get onto Wall Street to protest, that signals to the bankers that the perp walks are imminent and they know it.
            2.) In spite of their vast wealth, they don’t control the security apparatus (yet or at least not completely). In Suskind’s book, they give off the scent of fear at times. They know they are vulnerable to public pressure.
            3.) The location is actually bloody brilliant in terms of logistics. There are over 8 million people in NYC and, trust me, they are watching. One false move by police and the streets will be jammed. Plus, the movement has the potential to continue at a steady state. People will come and go as long as there is a presence there. But what we really need is growth. As long as it keeps growing, it will keep growing.
            4.) There is no pro-Obama sentiment down there. In fact, it is quite the opposite. He’s not welcome there and the occupiers are not buying his crap.
            I don’t smell the astroturf. I know it’s easy to deceive people but to me, it makes sense to start at Wall Street and not go directly for the politicians in DC right away. That doesn’t mean I won’t keep my spidey sense finely attuned but I took it out for a spin on Wednesday and didn’t pick up any signal.
            In fact, quite the opposite. If it were an astroturf operation, you’d think they would have made arrangements to find a better park for sleeping and weather protection. And they can’t use voice amplification devices so each speaker is forced to say short sentences that are repeated by successive rings of listeners. It’s a giant pain in the ass. There’s a “blessed are the cheesemakers” quality about it. They don’t even have solar powered generators yet and I have no idea where people take a shower. Frankly, I don’t see the Obama fanbase putting up with primitive conditions like that.
            It’s the real deal, DT. It’s open source occupation.

          • I’m noticing that most of the folks who are going in for the astroturf theory think the pols actually hold significant power independent of their paymasters, the Malefactors Of Great Wealth. I am not convinced of that, hence I do not think the pols would slap their masters’ faces by proxy in that fashion.

          • I hope you’re right. But I remain skeptical. Can’t help it. 🙂

          • I agree with you that it is a good thing to remain skeptical. But I think these people are taking their cue from Jon Stewart’s rally to restore sanity last year. Remember that? People made fun of that because Stewart was not pinning the blame on anyone in particular. He just wanted people to come out and take a stand and show that Glenn Beck and his cronies didn’t own the zeitgeist. This is the same principle. For the last couple of years, all we ever heard was that the Tea Party was the voice of the angry American. What about the rest of us who were NOT bitter, bigoted, ignorant, deficit hawking nutcases?
            If anything, I would suspect that Stewart and Colbert were behind it although there’s no proof of that either.
            But make no mistake about it, the people who are running this are smart. They know what’s going on. Did you see Paul Krugman’s blog post about the sign that said Fuck the Opportunistic Disinflation? He says someone is paying attention enough to be able to be funny. The Obama fanbase doesn’t have a sense of humor.

          • But make no mistake about it, the people who are running this are smart. They know what’s going on.
            Very likely the know what they’re doing. Watch for cliffs.

          • “It could only have started at Wall Street to work, which is precisely why it has to be astroturf.”

            HUH? Any sign of intelligence has to be astroturf? It couldn’t even be dumb luck?

          • HUH? Any sign of intelligence has to be astroturf? It couldn’t even be dumb luck?

            No, I’m arguing it could only work to form such a group via Wall Street. (Because that’s what will get people motivated and angry.) I’m also arguing it can’t work by being at Wall Street (vs. DC). So I’m arguing there is no intelligence to what people think is the purpose. So therefore it’s more likely to be astroturf.

          • @ DT. You’re still ignoring dumb luck. Or coincidence. Some magazine mentioned a date. Who knows how many people (unconnected with each other) had demonstrations in other cities on that date? The only one we’ve heard of is OWS — because Wall St was a prime location.

        • Okay, I hang around Myiq too, so I’m part of the bad crowd. But RD, you say:

          It definitely doesn’t smell like astroturf.
          And then I have to ask myself: If Obama or the DNC were behind the occupations, would he have allowed so much misery to happen in the last three years and stood by and done nothing only to conjure up a grassroots looking organization from the left that would conveniently push him in the direction he always wanted to go?
          I’m thinking, NO. For one thing, it would be so diabolical that if it were discovered, his career would be over in politics.

          1) The DNC (same as Obama, IMHO) could be behind the OWS, and only the insiders would know. In the 2008 primary and campaign showed how the Chicago politics was nationalized, but one could not trace it back to the Obama campaign. I’m not saying that OWS is Obama’s doing, but I’m not ready to buy into it.
          2) The grassroots, if it is, organization is not pushing anything that needs to happen because the solution has to start in Washington, not Wall Street. Demonstrating against Wall Street will not change Wall Street. That’s fishy to me, and methinks it’s a distraction to put the focus away from Washington.
          3) If he Clintons could be attacked with racism, I don’t put it past the Obama camp to devise something diabolical to get what Obama needs, someone to blame for his failings.

          • Actually the effort can throw as many sticks and stones against Wall Street all it wants, it won’t hurt. You can’t throw Wall Street under the bus. You can pretend you don’t like them and it’s all their fault. They won’t mind. Really they won’t. 🙂

          • See my comment above. This is the right target though by no means the only one.

          • DT, I agree. If anything, WS is happy to be the bad guy as long as the demonstrators don’t force Washington to change the game being played at WS. Both parties use distractions to put the blame somewhere else. If we really wanted to hurt WS, the best way is to force all 401K funds and pensions to withdraw all investments from stocks and put them into U.S. Treasuries. That’s something WS understands. That would hurt the 401Ks and pension funds though.

          • The grassroots, if it is, organization is not pushing anything that needs to happen because the solution has to start in Washington, not Wall Street.

            I disagree, Dario. Change of this magnitude has to start at the bottom. The solution has to start with people taking to the streets and saying “I’m mad as hell and I’m not going to take it any more.”

        • The Unions have been planning this for months. Steven Lerner of SEIU visited PACE University in March and talked about it.

          http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-03-22/news/30073732_1_stock-market-seiu-secret-plan

        • It definitely doesn’t smell like astroturf.

          I hope you’re right – but if it isn’t astroturf, then the astroturfers are certainly working overtime to co-opt it (judging from the daily emails I’m getting from the SEIU and various “progressive” organizations I have never heard of before). I suppose I should just be happy that somebody has a job (even as a sockpuppet).

          I was discussing this with Mrs. Propertius a few moments ago and she raised an interesting point: If you really want the bankers prosecuted for their misdeeds, then why occupy (a few blocks from) Wall Street? Why not “Occupy the Justice Department” or “Occupy the SEC”?

      • Astroturf, my sweet Aunt Fanny.

        This from a guy who thought PUMA was a racist Republican ratfucking operation.

        • “a guy who thought PUMA was a racist Republican ratfucking operation.”

          The evidence was about as good as the evidence against OWS. PUMA spread instantly, all those supposedly independent websites appeared overnight, the term caught media attention….

          Any successful movement must be astroturf….

          • To be fair, there were no talking heads on tv discussing how PUMA was going to emerge months prior to the moment it did.

            However, there were a lot of talking heads on all the cable networks stating that the Arab Spring would become a Western Summer. Now we can say that it was an easy assumption because that Egyptian rebel rousing looked like so much fun..

            Except ‘Days of Rage’ stated they would be doing just that. Starting the OWS after they were done in Egypt. So when do protesters hook up with corporate talking heads to share their action memos?

            And please don’t look too closely at the Egyptian uprising or you might find out it has some oddities as well. Because there were rumblings of Alphabet agencies working on the Egyptian uprising for quite some time. Geez…Frontline had a front row seat before everything hit the fan.

            So being skeptical in this case, which doesn’t lay a hand on DC, vs PUMA seems a little more prudent.

          • I re-read this and it read harsher than intended. As well as, meaning ‘you’ as in the general sense. Not to you specifically Bemused Leftist or even Lambert.

            My apologies it was poorly written.

  3. It seems much of the crowd over at TCH shares one thing with Obummer: a reflexive loathing of anything that smacks of DFHs.

  4. If it is at least partly a rolling extended church-meeting/assembly type of gathering as Matt Stoller suggested on Naked Capitalism, and if other such assemblies come into extended being in other places; hopefully some or even many of the people who get to know eachother at these places will decide they can trust enough eachother to share contact information and keep in touch with eachother when not at the assembly. It may take people time to think their way through what has gone wrong and then some more time for people to think their way through the self and mutual protection and defense response indicated. I have heard that a scholarly history of the Populist Movement (the real one) was written recently. I haven’t read it but I suspect I should. The Populist Movement took many years to gather strength before it became a major disturbance to the political system. Perhaps this will be the start of a multi-year movement of learning what to organize about, and then organizing to do something about what they have learned.

    What looks like astroturf to some could perhaps be astro-piggybacking or attempts at astro-hijacking by johny-come-lately operatives. A learning assembly may learn to spot such people.

    • “What looks like astroturf to some could perhaps be astro-piggybacking or attempts at astro-hijacking by johny-come-lately operatives.”

      The term “Tea Party” came from some GOP politician, and later some other GOPs tried to take over the movement. But in between times, it was a lot of real, sincere grassroots people. (Some of whom have now switched to OWS, sih — same core issues: bailouts, crony capitalism.)

  5. Yes – I’ll come back 6 months from now when absolutely nothing will have changed based on this incredibly idiotic, unfocused “protest” which is “protesting” the wrong people to begin with and ask what now. Everyone who is out of a job will still be out of a job; unemployment will still be as high, if not higher; the bankers will be in the same positions of power because all of you focused on the wrong things and in the wrong place.

    But, this comment won’t see the light of day anyway as this blog – in the very best tradition of “democracy” – deletes comments it doesn’t like. (Not ones that are profane, etc – just ones it doesn’t agree with). Just did with my last comment about where to really focus this anger. No matter; not sure how much more totalitarian you can be than silencing dissent, but I can call out Confluence for doing that on other blogs.

    • Hataz gonna hate… 😛

    • There are two ways to lose your comments:
      1.) you typed in a banned word and you accidentally got thrown into moderation or
      2.) you have decided to propagate right wing or Obama fan base talking points

      If you’ve been paying attention, you would see that the comment thread is full of disagreements. But if you decide to take a crap here, I will ban you. And you know why?

      It’s my blog.

      I have aa particularly POV that I want to maintain here. If you want to dissent, fine. But if you are thinking that it would be funner to mess with my POV and then cry for mommy when I disagree with you, then I suggest you go get your own blog.

      The blogosphere is big. You can’t imagine how fantastically big it is. You can dissent all you want on some other asteroid. Don’t worry that your absence will hurt our feelings. We won’t be offended if you leave.

    • pre-emptive whining gives you wrinkles.

  6. As me noted long ago as the Tea Pary movement was just beginning, there would be fringe groups that would latch to OccupyWallStreet and other movements out there.

    As time passes by, however, as those fringe groups gets rejected by the majority, a movement will tend to settle to what the majority wants. However, it needs a leader to guide it because without a leader, the varying opinions of the different groups will tend to divide those groups and after a while, those groups will be divided to subgroups ad infinitum until the movement just withers away.

    So, in my opinion, this OccupyWallStreet might be doomed to failure until a leader could guide them..

    • As RD says, there are people organizing this, they’re smart, and they know what’s going on. I’m sure they have a plan. Trouble is, it’s a secret and the followers don’t know what the plan is.

      Fascinating.

      • I want to know who the people are and what the plan is.

        • I want to know who put the tribbles in the quadrotriticale. :mrgreen:

        • This video might clarify things a little for you . They do have a leader btw, it is called a general assembly. Topics are discussed and voted on, majority rules. The general assembly have blamed both parties for the mess.

          Keith Olbermann Reads The Statement Released By The Wall Street Protesters – 2011-10-05

          video link addy : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yks-xxClwZ4&feature=related

          • Who is on the general assembly?

          • Anyone who wants to contribute. The break into working groups for specific things.
            You know, just like any nascent political group. Big assembly, breaks down into smaller chunks or committees to work through assignments.

          • So anyone who shows up can just join in?

            If a few thousand Tea Partiers showed up for a general assembly meeting they could take over the place?

          • Yep, you could do that. But the occupiers are committed to keeping out politics, religion and social issues and they mean it. And the reason for that is that it tends to be divisive. The occupiers are trying to get as many people together to show that whether you are a tea partier or a liberal or a libertarian or a {{fill in the blank}}, it doesn’t matter what you are to the top 1%. To them, you are just a peon and your adherence to a tribal identity suits their purpose very well.
            So, keep that in mind. You’d be surprised, myiq, even the socialists are asked to keep their political views to themselves. I think the only reason they accept union endorsements is because unions understand the concept of solidarity so they already have the right mindset for this kind of protest.

        • This has been out there for months:

          Former SEIU Official Reveals Secret Plan To Destroy JP Morgan, Crash The Stock Market, And Redistribute Wealth In America
          CAUGHT ON TAPE:Henry Blodget|March 22, 2011

          Read more: http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-03-22/news/30073732_1_stock-market-seiu-secret-plan#ixzz1aHX6sWKt

        • me too go to their website and find out who is managing their donations. 😦

      • I’m not sure they have a particular end point. What they seem to want is a movement because they have wisely discovered that you can’t make demands if you don’t have a movement behind you. It was impossible to do this before because most people wanted to give Obama a chance. It was also impossible because most organized opposition is based on some particular ideology. That keeps people away. In this movement, there is only one identification that counts- you are the 99%. It doesn’t matter what your particular political philosophy is. To the 1%, your opinion, lives, votes do not count.
        When you realize this, it is easier to become part of the movement. It is you against this small group of people who consider themselves untouchable masters of the universe. Says who? The 99% didn’t vote to make them kings.

        I think the open source movement is a good one. You try things and see if they work. Everyone can contribute. Even better analogy is design of experiments. Pick a set of parameters, make some changes, evaluate the result. Pick the best set of values, reset the experiment, make new changes, evaluate the result. The goal is to get as many people on your side as possible, in essence, to reverse the thirty years of divisiveness that has been a trademark of the political class.

        • What they seem to want is…

          Rorschach alert. 🙂

          • Lots of Rorschaches seeing ‘kill capitalism’, ‘overturn the government’, ‘collectivists’, etc. Or claiming they see it.

          • Good point bl, when you have Rorschach movement, you can imprint anything you want on it. You can see hope and change or you can see commies. I don’t see either, I see the Rorschach nature itself.

  7. I don’t think the basic sentiments expressed here are mutually exclusive. I mean there are (God knows) legitmate reasons for a grass roots movement to evolve, but at same time I am suspecious of the attachment some of the protestors have to Obama’s person. He seems to be blameless and the whole thing is to force him to make the right moves or to nudge him in the right direction. It will be great if it works but a call for accountability will be greater in MHO

    • I’m sure some Bots have got there by now and are trying to hijack OWS. But last time I read their forum, there was mostly negativity toward Obama. Accused him of selling out, being a tool of Wall Street, don’t expect help from him, etc.

    • If that is the impression you are getting, you couldn’t be more wrong. I do not see an overwhelming support for Obama at occupywallstreet. And even if there was that kind of support, expressing it is strongly discouraged.

      • I just read through http://occupywallst.org/article/second-general-assembly-antiflag/#comments and didn’t see ANYTHING positive about Obama.

        One poster said Romney would be worse, but all the comments bashed Obama as selling out, a tool of Wall Street, etc.

        • You know, once your eyes are open and you see a person for what he truly is, it’s hard to close them again and pretend.
          On virtually speaking last night, stuart zechman said that the independent Democrats in Manhattan, who are no friends of Obama, failed to pass a resolution of support for occupywallstreet. And I don’t think it’s because they are not sympathetic to the cause. I think some of them may realize that adding a partisan support to the movement is not helpful. So, I’m kinda glad that some Democrats are not getting involved in an official capacity.

  8. The violence and arrests Wednesday night were triggered by protesters linking arms, counting down, and rushing the police barricades.

    • You need an unbiased news source. I think a sign of desperation is when you start repeating right wingers and tea partiers. Maybe this saying explains it: none so blind as those who do not want to see.

      Analogy: Lets say the police said clowns can not drink beer but you decide to rush the beer and drink it. The police block you with pepper spay and clubs. You thought that because it was your beer you could drink it . Police say no .

      Should you be allowed your beer or not.?

      Wall Street is our street, why can we not walk down it?

      PS: I understand why clowns should not drink but unclear as why Wall Street is blocked from citizens walking down it. 🙂

      • You need an unbiased news source.

        It’s a video. Res ipsa loquitur

        BTW – I used to make a living keeping people from drinking beer. Some of them went to jail when they wouldn’t cooperate.

        • You chose the video because of the title, a right winger wrote that title, check his postings. The same video was posted by others with a different title but you choose a negative sounding title.

          I think Paul Krugman explains what you are feeling maybe. “A weary cynicism, a belief that justice will never get served, has taken over much of our political debate — and, yes, I myself have sometimes succumbed.”
          Excellent article btw. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/10/07/opinion/krugman-confronting-the-malefactors.html

          • No. The videos with different titles omit the countdown. If you find the exact same length and content with the title “fluffy bunny garden show” I’m sure myiq would post it.

    • 1.) The barricades have been erected to keep people off of Wall Street, which, if I recall correctly, is a public street that New Yorkers pay to maintain. Bankers can walk Wall Street freely. YOU cannot.
      2.) Heck, why not give it a try? Link arms and try to advance. Of course, police are free to interpret this as an attack, but it is not. The protestors are committed to non violence.
      Did you see the movie Gandhi? If you did, remember the scene where his followers were trying to get past a police barricade and each one of them marched up and kept on marching until the police beat the shit out of them? And that happened over and over again until there were hundreds of people laying around with broken bones and cracked heads and they just kept coming.
      That’s what we’re talking about here. The marchers are doing what they have to do, the police are doing what they’re trained to do. and all so Wall Street bankers don’t have to be disturbed by the dirty rabble.
      Is that what you support, myiq? And does an astroturf organization let itself get beaten up, noses broken and eyeglasses smashed?
      What exactly is your problem? If you can’t join them, why do you have to jump in with the right wing noise machine and parrot their talking points? You’re smarter than that, myiq. I know you have a stubborn streak but you’re putting it at the disposal of the wrong people.
      I’m pretty disappointed, not that anything I say will make a difference to you. That’s both your greatest strength and your biggest weakness.

      • What exactly is your problem?

        I have the right to remain silent but not the ability.

        I make up my own mind, I don’t parrot anyone. And I’m not going to apologize for not drinking the OWS Koolaid.

        You didn’t like being called a racist because you didn’t support Obama based on your principles, did you? So why do you call other people names and impugn their motives?

        You have a real problem accepting that other people can be just as smart as you, just as informed as you, and just as moral, principled and good-hearted as you and still not agree with you.

        It’s the whole “What’s the matter with Kansas?” bullshit. Well there’s nothing the matter with Kansas. The problem is the arrogance and conceit of people who think they know what’s better for other people.

        BTW – I keep asking and you don’t answer: If you do get to “occupy” Wall Street, what then? Do you really think that physically walking down that street is going to make any difference? Are you going to stay there and block the street, or just march and go home?

        What’s YOUR plan?

        • Wonder if she’ll reply. I get the feeling that the protesters just want to vent. What is their goal? And what happens when winter and blizzards hit? Will they still be “occupying” Wall St.? Again, what is the goal? What do they want to see happen? Anything this purposeless and inchoate is going nowhere.

          The fact that they’re not protesting the crony capitalists like Obama and the other corrupt politicians who are hand in glove with Wall St. is very suspicious. Politicians can be threatened by your vote and how you choose to use or not use it, not so the financiers.

          I’ve never heard of a demonstration where the government and administration were not criticized. Thus I smell a ratf*ck.

          I mean, really? Let’s protest against those in power (but let’s not protest the administration or the government.) Ha! This isn’t the American Autumn, it’s just silly season.

          • Get off your ass and start something if that’s that you want to do! What I’ve seen so far is pretty pathetic. Bitching on the internet is nice and all but at least the occupiers show up.

            Yeah, really!

          • Interesting reaction Ralph. Yes, I’m fully aware I’m being a smug ass right now. 🙂

          • If you want to be “the 99%” you can’t start by attacking the 52% that voted for Obama.

            OWS is about diagnosis. First get everyone to accept the diagnosis. Then will be time to discuss the treatment.

          • OWS is about diagnosis. First get everyone to accept the diagnosis. Then will be time to discuss the treatment.

            OK, that’s the best yet. So we have to STFU and accept the diagnosis. Got it.

          • DT,

            You think crony capitalism, revolving door, housing bubble, etc is not a problem?

        • As smart as me, myiq? Thank you. Where I live, I’m surrounded by people who are much smarter than me and I never forget it. However, I know when people are deliberately digging in their heels to remain ignorant.

          You know as well as I do that I never repeated a right wing talking point. But your readers seem to be triumphing over the fact that you are perfectly willing to give their ignorance a platform.

          If I were the only one reading my own blog, that would be ok with me. I’ve made my peace with myself and could easily be a tribe of one. I’m not trying to capture an audience.

          But as a member of the 99% of Americans who are not wealthy and well connected, I’ll be more than happy to contribute to the cause of changing consensus reality.

          If you want to live in the reality they construct for you, knock yourself out.

          I’m done with arguing with you.

        • if they do not occupy Wall Street then they will have to change the name to “occupy a street near wall street” and that would be too hard to remember. = )

          having made that lame joke, I have to say that I am hopeful that this protest will go somewhere. But I would rather see “occupy MSNBC studios” or “occupy K Street”. How about “occupy the Hamptons”

        • I’m not even a part of the movement and I can answer the question you ask. Will it make a difference? Hell, yeah. It will be a huge symbolic victory. And maybe once that symbolic victory has been attained, they can move on to other concrete agendas. Or maybe at least one freakin’ politician will finally wake up, smell the shitstorm and realize that there is a huge section of the population who are screaming for representation.

      • Honk. And I’m not sure how you go about “attacking police” while you’ve got your arms locked with your friends. Kickboxing?

        • Takes right winger logic I think.

          • No, just logic. For example, were their arms just locked? So they weren’t moving? Were they really just friends? Were they chanting anything that indicated intent? Were they moving?

            I’m not saying they were a real threat to life and limb. And I’m not saying there aren’t better crowd control techniques that could be used. And I’m not even on the polices side in this case to be technical. But the arguments against doing some kind of crowd control are fascinating to me.

          • No simple logic suggests that was a route to the NYSE. The police stated that was the protesters’ goal, RD has also stated it was the goal. The goal being, if they are able to stand in front of the building for their photo op, it will disrupt the Matrix.

            But the simple facts are, the NYPD will protect that building at all costs and will never let the protesters near Wall St. They are creating a buffer zone and will bring out the NYPD tanks to protect that building. Why would the NYPD believe a bunch of protesters….uh….I mean really ‘smart geeks’ and their purity pledge that they won’t storm the building?

            It is just short of delusional to expect any other reaction from the NYPD.

          • @DT. Moving is attacking? Chanting is attacking? “Some kind of crowd control” equates with violence?

            NYPD could put up a better fence, instead of using sticks and mace. The $4.6 million that Sachs donated to them would cover that. A fence is reusable, too.

          • The $4.6 million that Sachs donated to them would cover that.

            The donation was from J.P. Morgan. A bribe doesn’t work unless it’s properly attributed ;-).

        • Thank you! I’ve been meaning to bring that up. Maybe they had small children down at their feet biting the cops’ ankles.

    • Myiq:

      I have yet to see a a video that justifies what the police did.

      Nothing you say, unless of course you have DEFINITIVE proof that the protestors acted in a manner that warranted this response and I doubt you do other than the same videos we have all seen. But it seems we are seeing the same thing happen through a different lens!

      I keep hearing from police apologists that these cops were in “fear” of their lives.

      Hmmmm…

      If so….then why did they themselves cross their own barriers and wade into the crowd to begin to crack skulls and douse innocents/ media etc with pepper spray.?

      Oh I know…your going to say…”Show me a video of the police cracking skulls.” Yeah…You’ve made that argument before .There is NO video ,( at lest one that has been posted. I wouldn’t put it past the PoPo to have “Confiscated” some video cameras/cell phones etc and ERASED the evidence. But then again…You would probably justify that also would’ve you? ) The police were on the OTHER side of that barrier. The protestors pushed up against the barrier….The Police worked their way into the crowd once the “pushing” began and attacked with Pepper spray and their “BIG STICKS!” And yet…..AND YET….NO VIOLENT PUSH BACK FROM THE PROTESTORS!!!!!!!!

      It’s ALL in the video you yourself have posted!!!!

      I don’t see anyone attacking the PoPo and I don’t see anyone advocating said attack either. I don’t see anyone fighting the police and I don’t see anyone fighting back once that ” Terrified White Shirt” attacked with his ” BIG Stick!”

      Obviously you’ve never been on the receiving end of police brutality. I HAVE! I was beaten in front of my wife and three daughters for the crime of asking why I was stopped ( profiled in a neighborhood I was TOLD I didn’t belong in by these so-called men of honor in blue ) and when I reached for my wallet….I was ATTACKED by 6 cops.

      Their excuse after all was said and done….He LUNGED at us!!!!

      So, forgive me if I do not believe the EXCUSE the NYPD are NOW using to justify their actions. They WANTED this to happen and they did what they had to do to ensure this was the outcome.

      This is the attitude these protestors are encountering:

      The vast majority of Police are decent folk but more and more scumbag thugs like the one above are finding their way into the ranks of those we rely upon to “SERVE..get it…SERVE and PROTECT the people that pay their salaries!

      This sorry excuse for a man is nothing more than a “Thug with a badge and their are thousands more around the country JUST LIKE HIM in uniform!

      I suppose there will always be folk that defend this type of action regardless if the Police were at fault…Don’t you agree Myiq?

      But then again in the eyes of some of the loudest ” Right Wing Defenders of the Constitution and Freedom of speech” and the folks that screamed the loudest when it was their “Koch Bros/ Dick Armey funded” Tea bag revolution that was being ridiculed for the hypocrisy of elderly medicare recipients and social security recipients channeling their inner Che Guevara all the while in their Government funded wheel chairs/steppers/ walkers/ oxygen tanks/ Hoverounds etc……The justifiably angry folk venting their frustrations at what has been a historic theft of the Nations wealth and the rape of the famed Middle Class ( not to mention the poor that have suffered tremendously and are largely forgotten ) are nothing more than lazy…. hippy…. free loading…. mooching off their parents..Socialist/ Commie pinko…Obama did it…. Union thugs, Unwashed…never will amount to shit…Lazy…Xbox playing…Music jamming…Pot smoking…Meth addicted…pieces of shit.

      Just ask one of your loyal readers. I’m sure she will agree that it’s It’s all Obama’s fault and saint Sarah of the Wasilla will save us from ourselves!!

      Sorry for the long rant RD but I have had experience with police brutality. It has touched EVERONE I know in one way or the other. The Chicago Police are notorious for shooting first and asking questions later and many a young man has been shot in the back and the excuse has always been..”He pointed a gun at me.” Or…He mouthed off at me so I broke his jaw.

      What you saw on that Wednesday night is something that happens every day here on the South Side of Chicago. Maybe not with barriers and protestors but in dark alley ways, gang ways, dark corners and in broad daylight and there are always people like Myiq that justify it…No Matter What!

      • OOps my bad…I used the name that “Shall not be mentioned” and now I’m in Moderation time out. Help!!!!!!!!

        • I found that video you asked for.

          It’s posted over at the other place.

          • .I saw it and responded brother but I still beg to differ on what we both are watching.
            I don’t think we will ever agree. You see what you see and I see what I see.
            But….I still don’t see how the police really believed their lives were in any danger and I do not see anyone rushing the barriers as they claimed. What I see and the video shows are people attempting to get the hell out of the way of the Pepper spray and Night Clubs.

            An argument can be made by those that wish to ridicule these folk that they bunched up against a barrier and started a countdown so the police had no choice but to start swinging their “Big Sticks” to let them know who was in charge. I can see how some would make that claim.

            But…. That claim would be bullshit and we both know it. I think, deep down inside you yourself know this was uncalled for. Maybe maybe eh Myiq?

            Anyway…..

            I wonder who will protest when the Police are thrown to they themselves have outlived their usefulness Myiq?

            The very people they are now swinging their “Big Sticks” at today!

          • Amy Goodman posted the version with the countdown and reported that the crowd rushed the police barrier. Just adding what I know to the info flow.

            This spat getween Myiq and RD is disheartening. Also, sorry to learn something went down with WMCB. She was one of my favorites.

          • Nah, I wouldn’t worry about me and myiq. I have a lot of respect for him. It’s just that his oppositional defiant disorder routine gets old. He’s a good person and means well. I just wish he’d settle on what he really believes. It’s a shame to leave so much talent on the table when thhr country could use a writer like him.

      • oh come on. I got as far as your suggestion that cops could have confiscated cell phones etc.. to hide the evidence. Really, there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of people there. Surely the police could not have confiscated ALL their I-phones so that NO video got out.

        I am agnostic on this movement. I am glad there are people willing to hit the streets. I did it back during the run up to the war in Iraq. However I also see evidence that the movement is in danger or being usurped by idiots. Seriously, if you live in this country and are hoping for communism, you are a dilettante who needs to have a few conversations with people who have actually lived with communism. Or better yet, go to North Korea and see how much fun it is to starve for their ideals.

        It was this video of the John Lewis fiasco that has me discouraged. All I could think of was Animal Farm. It should take the smart people here about two minutes to figure out what is wrong with this event.

        I found this posted at Uppity Woman. Hope it embeds.

      • Boo-yah! Righteous rant!

      • Teresa:

        I’m am in no way suggesting the Police confiscated cell phones etc..what i am saying is that I wouldn’t put it past them if they did

        I have many friends that are Chicago PD and I KNOW what they do to clean up their messes! so…If a Chicago cop will go to extraordinary lengths to hide his brutality, what makes you think a NYPD cop wouldn’t?

        That’s all I am saying.

  9. Sometimes in science experiments, you can’t just watch and monitor something. Instead you have to add reactive agents and then monitor how the substance reacts to that. And from that reaction you can learn things. Say like poking people and saying OWS is astroturf. Or who is organizing OWS. I’m experimenting around.

    • You and I are on the same page, DT. But I also have to ask myself that if I were going to start a legitimate movement and I didn’t want people dividing the mass of people I need to be effective, what policies would I put in place? The ‘no politics, candidate advocacy, religious expressions and social issues stuff’ would be at the top of my list.

      • Like I’ve said a couple of times, it could be exactly a great thing or at least turn into a great thing. But it could just as easily be the opposite. I’m poking and prodding to see. 🙂

      • But keep in mind, that makes it sort of a Rorschach movement. Now what does that remind me of…. Watch out for cliffs and keep the spidey senses fueled.

        • Yep. OTOH, what are your other options? Do you see any other movement happening? If there was one out there that you would want to join, what would it look like? How would you get the mass and momentum to make it a threat to the money and political class? How would you go about getting all of the people who oppose you to lay down their arms and join you? What action would you take to make the greatest visible impact?
          Then, how would you get dandy tiger to overcome his natural and quite understandable wariness and skepticism to get him to at least go to a site and check things out for himself?

          • Well me personally, cop out excuse #7, I’m building a business getting as many people employed as I can, to completely revolutionize education. Though the fact that we have company meetings inside LOTRO may make us look less serious, we aren’t. 🙂 But we’re pretty damn busy 24/7.

            Having said that, I am monitoring this very closely. I am surfing the sites. And as mentioned, poking and prodding and measuring the reactions. I’m hopeful that this turns into something, but the Rorschach thing is a big red flag. I’m also talking to low people in high places 🙂 that I know to see what’s what.

          • Well, if you find out anything, you have to share with the class.
            And if you’re busy working, that’s ok too. But everyone needs to take a break and what better way to spend your copious free time than by doing your own investigation?

      • “The ‘no politics, candidate advocacy, religious expressions and social issues stuff’ would be at the top of my list.”

        Honk. To speak to or for the 99%, stick to the main point.

        Tea Party fans pls note that TP stayed out of gay issues, war, etc.

  10. Word.

  11. Ordinarily, I do not begrudge anyone their time off but in this case I do. Big time.

    Obama works neither smarter nor harder. I view this in contrast to the stellar work ethic of the woman we could have had. Obama’s similarities to his “presidentin’ is hard work–now watch this shot” predecessor disgusts me.

    It’s not like there isn’t a lot of work that needs to be done. Is he counting on getting eight years to do a four year job? He HAS a job; I would like him to show up and do it.

    • If you want him to do a good job, you need to give him dOwn time. People who are fatigued through lack of sleep or overwork make dangerous mistakes.
      The fact that he is not a natural leader or good politician is not aided by lack of mental or physical downtime. Let’s distinguish between disappointment with his performance and counterproductive vindictiveness.

      • While I don’t think he’s natural leader or good politician, I wasn’t even addressing that. I simply think the man is not a good worker or producer and I there’s plenty of evidence to support that. I think he’s easily “fatigued and overworked” yet he’s in a position that requires the ability to do more than punch a clock. No vindictiveness, just an observation.

        • Well, I can’t disagree with your evaluation of his performance. But I wouldn’t wish 4 years of being president without sufficient breaks on my worst enemy.
          Let’s just be clear, I don’t think Obama is an evil guy. He is simply the product of the behavior of the group who he aspires to belong to. And that group ain’t us.

      • The fact that he needs so much down time is evidence for him not being up to the job. And not bothering to hide it. Bush at least hid in the WH playing video games.

      • I’m willing to let him have decades of down time.

  12. Just for some perspective…. On which comes first, last, middle. Sandwich.

    TP inspired by some GOP pol with that phrase “Tea Party.” So a bunch of people (not all GOP) came out with some protests they called “Tea Parties”, ie broke away. Then they got big and successful, and other GOP tried to ride their bandwagon.

    Same thing with OWS maybe. Inspired by that Canadian magazine’s date, perhaps breaking away, now some Dem pols trying to ride it.

    Same message: stop bailouts, crony capitalism, etc. Each articulating that message to their own demographic.

  13. I want to respond to the hypocrisy of Point 2. A major argument of the Anti-Social Security crowd is that we are all immature dependents expecting government to provide for us. We should be saving and helping each other generationally. We ARE supposed to have Gramma move in with us. So, with that in mind, if a family member wants to support someone who is protesting – Isn’t THAT how they want social support to work?!? Where do they get off bitching when they see their vision being enacted? Or is it that family support is only good if it dis empowers and impoverishes the citizenry?

  14. […] now with his big mouth. More food for thought for those trying to figure out who started the protest and why. LD_AddCustomAttr("AdOpt", "1"); LD_AddCustomAttr("Origin", "other"); […]

  15. Hi RD, would you ever consider voting for Ron Paul? He has been very supportive of OccupyWallStreet. Don’t you think we should audit the fed and take the power away from these banks? Also, his foreign policy plans are fantastic and other things he’s been saying has been pretty much in lock step with what you’ve been saying here for example repealing the patriot act and ending the TSA bullshit. Im sure there are things you disagree with him about but aren’t his plans better than the current situation and the cvurrent field of candidates?

    • No. I can’t see myself voting for Ron Paul. I’m glad he is paying attention to occupywallstreet but the occupation is not about political endorsements. As you know, occupywallstreet is staying away from politics and political ideology. It tends to be divisive and clutters up the thinking process. If you have to stay within a predefined script, you may overlook opportunities.

      • RD, I’ve stayed away from commenting for some time…even though some of the best times I’ve ever had were hanging out and talking trash with Dandy. I had started to feel that we Conflucians were stuck on a “predefined script” (we told you so) and overlooking opportunities to move forward. OWS has slapped me upside the head. Hale-fucking-lujah! I’m fired up! Ready to go!

        • Exsqueeze me. 🙂

        • Sharon, I will never let the left off the hook for the 2008 primary catastrophe? Know why? Because they still don’t get it. Or they get it but they’re trying to pretend they don’t. Disenfranchisement is a very serious thing. It’s about the most serious offense you can do to another citizen. If occupywallstreet finally starts to find its groove, I think the problem of voter disenfranchisement should be the very first thing it tackles. There is nothing more serious than that because no matter who is running, if your vote can be cancelled out and manipulated, then nothing else matters.

          So, you may think it is a script, I think it is an inviolable global principle: Thou shall not fuck with the voting system.

          If it makes you uncomfortable, then I think you are missing the point.

          • Oh, it doesn’t make me uncomfortable, RD, it’s just that I felt I had nothing to add to the conversation. Believe me, I got the point. The point went straight to my heart and hopes. But I just couldn’t keep the rage going cause I can be lazy and distracted by my constant struggle just to get by. I’m only explaining my long silence, not criticizing.

  16. “I think the problem of voter disenfranchisement should be the very first thing it tackles. There is nothing more serious than that because no matter who is running, if your vote can be cancelled out and manipulated, then nothing else matters. “

    Yup!!

    I’m still not sure what to think about all this Occupation stuff, but it’s been quite something reading the opposing POV’s on it.

  17. RD – I’ve tracked TC since it’s inception, but comment infrequently (and haven’t commented in a long time).
    I just want to really really thank you for your involvement in and coverage of OWS. Fantastic job.
    For many years, as I’ve watched where this country has been headed (with the concentration of power and wealth, glorification of selfishness, the celebrification and total consumer orientation of culture, election of W, then election of Obama, etc.), I’ve felt a complete absence of hope – just despair. This year, with the Chedder Revolution and now OWS, I’m starting to feel hope for the first time in what feels like forever.

    • affinis, I feel very much the way you do. However I am worried that the whole thing will fall apart due to the extremists making it all look silly and pushing it too far so that the majority of Americans turn against it. Look what happened to the tea party. They became a group of people who would cheer a person dying.

      • Depends on your definition of extremists. I find Christian fundamentalists to be on a par with wahabbi muslims. Oh yes I do. Amish believers? Not so much. For the Amish, there is no compulsion until you are baptized in the church. You can remain a sinner up to that point. Evangelicals find that notion completely unacceptable.
        But what does it matter what a non occupationist thinks? All that matters is what the occupation thinks. And it is committed to non violence, no politics, no candidate endorsement or advocacy, no social issues advocacy and no religious activity. Who is the extremist in this situation? The occupiers who agree to these terms for the benefit of solidarity or the person who insists on imprinting their own version of motherhood and apple pie?

        • But what does it matter what a non occupationist thinks? All that matters is what the occupation thinks.

          Interesting. {{takes notes}}

          • No, seriously, it’s easy to toss hand grenades into the movement. There will always be something about a movement that someone will not like. But if you sit on the sidelines and watch it develop into something you don’t like, whose fault is that?
            The occupation defines itself. It grows and evolves over time into what it will become. It may even be short lived. That might be OK too. Maybe it’s an entity that comes into being when it’s needed and then goes away. Like the room of necessity at Hogwarts. Sure, the country is prone to break into factions but when the times get rough and the 99% feel they’ve had enough, they get together in solidarity to push back. Like hitting the reset switch.
            When a movement is forming, it is up to the participants to define it. This could happen very rapidly but it will depend on the type and number of people who respond to it.

        • Another thing about the Amish, they keep pretty much to themselves. Unlike the other Fundy and not so Fundy religions that want to meddle in your life. Then they wonder why normal people dislike them so.

  18. lovely, now the Muslim brotherhood has arrived. And come on, buy a sound system already.

    • I can’t tell from your post, Teresa, whether you think this is an ominous or hopeful development. I personally welcome global involvement.

    • They don’t have a permit for amplification.

    • Voice amplification is not allowed in Zuccotti park.
      As for tge Muslim brotherhood, solidarity is solidarity. If they can privatize religion, they’re welcome to stay.
      I don’t know if you know this but islam has strict proscriptions against usuary. In a protest like this one, that POV might be useful. How do Muslim countries deal with tge issue of interest in a modern world? How many Muslim countries suffered the way we did after the financial collapse in 2008?
      Also, one of the four pillars of islam is the giving of alms.
      It’s not that they should be able to proselytize at OccupyWallStreet but you never know what you can learn from the societal impact of other religions.

  19. Great piece…haven’t finished reading it yet…at Common Dreams:

    http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2011/10/09-0

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