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Anti-establishment hero or rapist?


The Guardian has more information on the allegations against Julian Assange:

The allegations centre on a 10-day period after Assange flew into Stockholm on Wednesday 11 August. One of the women, named in court as Miss A, told police that she had arranged Assange’s trip to Sweden, and let him stay in her flat because she was due to be away. She returned early, on Friday 13 August, after which the pair went for a meal and then returned to her flat.

Her account to police, which Assange disputes, stated that he began stroking her leg as they drank tea, before he pulled off her clothes and snapped a necklace that she was wearing. According to her statement she “tried to put on some articles of clothing as it was going too quickly and uncomfortably but Assange ripped them off again”. Miss A told police that she didn’t want to go any further “but that it was too late to stop Assange as she had gone along with it so far”, and so she allowed him to undress her.

According to the statement, Miss A then realised he was trying to have unprotected sex with her. She told police that she had tried a number of times to reach for a condom but Assange had stopped her by holding her arms and pinning her legs. The statement records Miss A describing how Assange then released her arms and agreed to use a condom, but she told the police that at some stage Assange had “done something” with the condom that resulted in it becoming ripped, and ejaculated without withdrawing.

[…]

The following day, Miss W phoned Assange and arranged to meet him late in the evening, according to her statement. The pair went back to her flat in Enkoping, near Stockholm. Miss W told police that though they started to have sex, Assange had not wanted to wear a condom, and she had moved away because she had not wanted unprotected sex. Assange had then lost interest, she said, and fallen asleep. However, during the night, they had both woken up and had sex at least once when “he agreed unwillingly to use a condom”.

Early the next morning, Miss W told police, she had gone to buy breakfast before getting back into bed and falling asleep beside Assange. She had awoken to find him having sex with her, she said, but when she asked whether he was wearing a condom he said no. “According to her statement, she said: ‘You better not have HIV’ and he answered: ‘Of course not,’ ” but “she couldn’t be bothered to tell him one more time because she had been going on about the condom all night. She had never had unprotected sex before.”

[…]

On Wednesday 18 August, according to police records, Miss A told Harold and a friend that Assange would not leave her flat and was sleeping in her bed, although she was not having sex with him and he spent most of the night sitting with his computer. Harold told police he had asked Assange why he was refusing to leave the flat and that Assange had said he was very surprised, because Miss A had not asked him to leave. Miss A says she spent Wednesday night on a mattress and then moved to a friend’s flat so she did not have to be near him. She told police that Assange had continued to make sexual advances to her every day after they slept together and on Wednesday 18 August had approached her, naked from the waist down, and rubbed himself against her.

There is a lot more. Regardless of whether you believe Assange is guilty or innocent you should read it all. But here is a money quote:

The co-ordinator of the WikiLeaks group in Stockholm, who is a close colleague of Assange and who also knows both women, told the Guardian: “This is a normal police investigation. Let the police find out what actually happened. Of course, the enemies of WikiLeaks may try to use this, but it begins with the two women and Julian. It is not the CIA sending a woman in a short skirt.”

For those of you who think this is a lynch mob, think again. The two women in this case have had their names, photographs, addresses, phone numbers and other personal information posted around the internet. They have been accused of being everything from vengeful sluts to spies. That is wrong.

The article explains the timing of a allegations against Assange – it was based on when the alleged sexual assaults occurred. A legal process has been initiated and while Assange remains innocent until proven guilty, he has thus far tried to avoid the law.

Yes, he did “turn himself in” when Interpol issued a warrant for his arrest. But he did so in England and he is fighting extradition to Sweden where the crimes allegedly occurred.

I have yet to hear a rational and reasonable argument for Assange to be fighting extradition. Sweden is hardly some puppet government that can be counted on to railroad Assange on CIA orders.

Generally the only reasons to fight extradition are a claim of wrong identity or the lack of jurisdiction. Neither of those apply here.

The other possibility is where the suspect has reason to fear persecution on account of their membership of a social group or political beliefs. I’m sure that is what Assange will claim.

But Assange doesn’t get to litigate the allegations from England. If the warrant is deemed valid he should be turned over to Swedish authorities.

And while Assange has been exercising his right to remain silent, his lawyers have been spreading misinformation about the case. “Sex by surprise” and sex without a condom are not crimes in Sweden. Sex without consent is a crime.

We should all be wishing for this matter to be resolved as soon as possible. The truth is what it is, and let the chips fall as they may.


NOTE:

The comments here and at other blogs on this issue have been getting overly heated.

While I tend to believe the stories of the two women in this case, that is just my opinion and others will surely disagree. But regardless of your opinions I am assuming all the regulars here are a people of good character and not dupes or rape apologists.

Feel free to disagree with me and each other, but please keep it polite and don’t make it personal.


239 Responses

  1. Can you trust anyone who looks like Bill Maher?

  2. Feel free to disagree with me and each other
    I disagree with myself on this matter. Oh no you don’t. Oh yes I do. See what this case as done.

  3. Cathy Young at RCP:

    Valenti laments that U.S. law is “ill-equipped to actually protect women in realistic scenarios.” But, in realistic scenarios, sexual relationships are complicated and messy; it is an area where people often don’t think rationally, and context is everything. When a man initiates intercourse with a woman who is asleep — one of the accusations against Assange — the existence of a prior sexual relationship is hardly irrelevant. Perhaps that is why Valenti has to concede that, under Sweden’s admirably progressive sex crime laws, only 20% of rape complaints ever go to trial and only half of those result in a conviction.

    Earlier generations of feminists argued that rape should be treated the same as any other violent crime: the victim should not be subjected to special standards of resistance or chastity. These days, the demand for special treatment is so blatant that some activists openly support abolishing the presumption of innocence for rape cases and requiring the accused to prove consent (a proposal Valenti cites with obviously approval). In an ironic twist, these activists actually seem to hold women in very little esteem: in their world, women are too timid to push a man away if he won’t take no for an answer and too addled to know that they have been raped.

    What Valenti suggests would not dispose of the presumption of innocence. It would make consent an affirmative defense.

    An affirmative defense (like self-defense) has to be proven by the defendant. The standard of proof for an affirmative defense is by a preponderance of the evidence.

  4. Thanks for pulling this all together.

  5. yea myiq2xu, good work lots of good info

  6. good point if ole Julian is so pure then why is he fighting extradition.???

    • Generally the only reasons to fight extradition are a claim of wrong identity or the lack of jurisdiction. Neither of those apply here.

      The other possibility is where the suspect has reason to fear persecution on account of their membership of a social group or political beliefs. I’m sure that is what Assange will claim.

      But Assange doesn’t get to litigate the allegations from England. If the warrant is deemed valid he should be turned over to Swedish authorities.

      (I updated my original post to include this comment)

    • Maybe he fears that once extradited, he’ll actually be sent farther east than Sweden, to one of the former Soviet republics used as torture contractors by Nazi Amerika? 👿

      • Is that where you think you live today. My god why wouldn’t you move to another country.

        • Does the phrase “working-class poverty” mean anything to you, 3W?

          ****************************************************

          I used to believe in the basic goodness of the USA.

          I also used to believe in Santa Claus.

          I now see little, if any, difference between the two beliefs.

          • Yes, working class poverty is familiar to me, I’ve seen it and lived it at different points in my life, in Asia, in Africa, in America. But as imperfect as my country is, I choose not to think of it as Nazi Amerika. So I ask again, why don’t you choose to move away from your Nazi Amerika. I would if I thought I lived in 1938 Germany.

        • You do know how we oh-so-righteous and wonderful Amerikans got this country, don’t you, 3W?

          In case you don’t: WE MURDERED THE NATIVES AND STOLE THEIR LAND.

          • More reason to leave. Why live with the guilt.

          • Leaving and living in another country costs money.

            I don’t have enough, and never will, because I’m a working man rather than a bankster or something like that.

            So I’m stuck in Babylon.

          • On second thought, Rome makes a better analogy than Babylon.

          • Now that I think about it, Rome provides a better analogy than Nazi Germany, too. Rome was also an imperial state; in fact, “empire” comes from the Latin “imperium”.

            Rome was a torture state, too. Just ask Jesus.

          • Sorry for all the entries, but I keep having afterthoughts.

            If I had money, I probably wouldn’t be so unhappy here. This is a great country to live in–if you’re rich.

          • All kinds of people including my family came here with nothing. It can be done in reverse if you have enough desire…to escape the torture, persecution, corruption that is Amerika.

          • Your jingoistic self-righteousness has become tiresome. You may not touch my monkey. 😛

            *Myers-era SNL reference*

          • Just answering your questions. Nazi Amerika is your phrasing and apparently your country. Don’t blame me.

      • Or go off somewhere together with Julian and make a new country.

        You know, Julian does look like Bill Maher a bit. But you know whose face he reminds me of more these days…the anti establishment hero Lee Harvey Oswald.

        • Except Bill Maher uses shampoo occasionally

        • Really??

          That’s all you got??

          At least Assange hasn’t hidden behind a keyboard like myself and you, and is doing something against the police state.

          Yes, we live more and more in a police state. If you had a proper perspective of history and humanity, you will know that we gradually adapt to any kind of crap, because we need to survive. So the police state comes creeping on us.

          • So propose something. Because I don’t see any ideas for a new system of government and society from Julian. Could be some brand of socialism, anarchy, green arcadia, Ron Paul libertarianism…I have no clue what he is proposing to replace out police state. Mainly his koolaid like cult following reminds me of Obamania.

    • What is more frightening to you? Being taken to trial for a crime you did commit, or being taken to trial for a trumped up crime that only your accusers know what to expect and how far they are willing to take this?

      He said yesterday that he is terrified the USA is preparing to bring some very hefty charges against him and ask to have him sent here….hello Gitmo treatment?

  7. “Sweden is hardly some puppet government that can be counted on to railroad Assange on CIA order” Are you willing to put money on that? While I agree that Sweden is not a “puppet goverment” I’m sure there might be a scenario where they might be railroaded. It is silly to presume to know everything about the vested interests of governments vis-a-vis one another. Is it possible that Assange is in possession of information that leads him to believe the Swedish government can be railroaded? I don’t know. I do know that immediately after the accusations were made, Assange stayed in Sweden and didn’t try to flee, so apparently something has changed why he’s fighting to not go back.

    “The two women in this case have had their names, photographs, addresses, phone numbers and other personal information posted around the internet. ” That’s what happens when you accuse a high profile person of a crime. “They have been accused of being everything from vengeful sluts to spies.” You know nothing about these women yet you assume they AREN’T vengeful sluts or spies; based on what? They might be rape victims; that doesn’t negate the fact that they might also be vengeful sluts and spies. As they say: just because you’re paranoid doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.

    • You know nothing about these women yet you assume they AREN’T vengeful sluts or spies

      I assume nothing, but we generally don’t treat women who claim they were raped like they were vengeful sluts or spies and publish all their personal information on the web.

      • LIke what? The accused is known internationally. Did these women really think they would remain anonymous. Remember Desiree Washington/Mike Tyson, Kobe Bryant/Katelyn Faber. We learned more than we ever wanted to about these women before it was all over. It comes with the territory.

        • Yes, it comes with the territory and it is hardly surprising, but does that mean it is right for these men and their supporters to spread rumors and lies about women who come forward about being raped or sexually assaulted? None of us know anything about these women personally, but we do know much more about Assange’s personality and character. So how can anyone assume that these women are “vengeful sluts”?

        • This is a horrible argument. We all here knew that, say, continuing to support Clinton/not supporting Obama would bring down a shitstorm of abuse fromobots. But we deserved that? That makes it ok? Knowing ahead of time that others will abuse you means— the abuse is ok?

          Let’s apply that little bit of reasoning to Assange. He surely knew that Wikileaks would make him a political target for prosecution, possibly persecution, and perhaps even assasignation. So, he deserves what he gets, eh?

        • Exactly why 60% of all rapes go unreported. It is not suppossed to “come with the territory,” but those high profile men you name had the $$ to make sure those women were dragged through the dirt in the media. Usually the women get dragged through the dirt in the court room for daring to come forward, but hey, when you can get them dragged through the dirt on CBS, why not?

          • One of the reasons 60% of rapes go unreported. Another reason is the many women through the years who have claimed to be assaulted and raped for fame and financial gain. The Paula Jones type situations.

    • Check out my other comments. I agree with you. This just happened at a too convenient time. Like Spitzer’s sex expose. Let’s just show how moral we are by going after him for sex stuff. Deterrence is what Baudrillard calls this strategy.

      • Spitzer DID have sex with a prostitute. More than one actually. He wasn’t set up either.

        The fact that his political enemies were behind the investigation doesn’t make him innocent.

        • I was about to say the same thing. Having the allegations come out at an inopportune time for a public figure does not mean they did not commit the crime. As much as I like Spitzer as a politician, having sex with a prostitute is a crime. He admitted his guilt and had to face the consequences. So should Assange if the allegations turn out to be true.

          • Plus, Spitzer was actually the guy who pushed through certain laws re: transporting prostitutes across state lines, and then got caught doing that exact thing. He made his own bed, so to speak.

        • Are Juanita Broaddrick and Paula Jones’ accusations against Clinton both valid?

          I am NOT a rape apologist. However, I am a firm believer in fair trials. Trials by media or this blog are not so.

          Gotta wait for a trial before conviction.

          • We’ll never know, because those two women were treated with the same contempt and media shaming as the Swedish accusers. Just because Bill Clinton was a good President doesn’t mean he isn’t also a sexual predator.

            *****A

          • It’s not a trial here–it’s a discussion. Something in the news, which is what we always do.

          • The “contempt and media shaming” experienced by Broaddrick and Jones–and their sanctification as innocent martyrs in the right-wing press–just might have had something to do with their ties to the Arkansas Project and the inconsistency of their stories.

          • Not sure Clinton qualifies as a predator. Even Paula Jones (who did the whole thing for money, fame and plastic surgery) said he backed off when she said no.

        • Still wondering who clients 1 through 8 were….

  8. “Anti-establishment hero or rapist?” Or both or neither. The two are not mutually exclusive.

    The problem with most discussions on this issue save those in feminist spaces is that too many can’t believe that he could have done some really good things AND some really bad things.

  9. Speaking of affirmative defenses, the first affirmative and complete defense is the statute of limitations. Could it be that Assange will try to stay out of Sweden until the clock runs out? One never knows do one?

    • The statute of limitations is based on the concept of laches, which states that a defendant has the right to face legal process in a timely manner so he can defend himself properly. As time passes evidence will be lost and witnesses will die or begin to forget what happened.

      Laches does not apply when the defendant avoids legal process. The clock stops ticking.

    • Notice the attractive young woman standing next to Assange and smiling at him with what looks like affection or adoration.

      Who is she? I’ve heard nothing about him having a girlfriend.

      I suspect an old lawyer’s trick – hire a woman to sit behind a rape defendant and smile at him approvingly during the trial to plant the idea in the jury’s mind that “He has a beautiful girlfriend, why would he commit rape?”

      • Or she could be a Monica Lewinsky type who’s attracted to power. For God’s sake stop speculating about every minutae. I truly can’t understand why so many people are so invested in this? By the way, that’s the first time I’ve ever heard of that old lawyer’s trick. And here I was thinking I’m an old lawyer; silly me!

      • Does the rape victim have a stained blue dress like Monica? Same old same old.

      • I assumed that she was part of his legal team. (This ‘old lawyer’ does know that you always have a woman on the legal team in rape cases. ) She does seem like the happiest person there. I bet she thinks that Assange is just like Christmas and New Years and Hanukkah all rolled into one.

        • She might be part of the legal team. If she is then her big smile might be about getting on what might be the biggest case of her career so far. A case this big could be better than Christmas, New Years and Hanukkah.

      • That is his ATTORNEY! Sheesh…she did a good defense why shouldn’t she be happy to see her work out and about!?! She is a brilliant lawyer and has a very sound mind/intellect.

        I recent, the “Cutesy” bit, trying to ding bat her.

        It’s Been Incredibly Difficult To Arrange Visitation! Julian Assange Attorney Jennifer Robinson.

    • “To my lawyers, who have put up a brave and ultimate successful fight…”

      , see both his lawyers looking at each other, even ‘the cutie’ you took note off (She apparently has experience in fighting extradition matters, besides being photogenic. 😉 )

    • Newsnight Interview of Julian Assange After Bail Dec 16th 2010 (Assange addresses the rape/molestation allegations and his case.)

  10. I believe these allegations. Though this has nothing to do with his guilt or innocence, let me just say that Assange looks like a narcissistic creep. His “progressive” supporters are also helping him and his lawyers spread lies on the internet to destroy these women.

    • I agree….the male bullying on the internet worked in 2008 in the primaries for you know who.

    • I don’t know all the facts, so let the courts decide, but I get the same gut feeling from this guy.

  11. I don’t believe you’re right. I’m not inclined to research it but I strongly disagree that the statute is tolled by the defendants failure to appear. The charges have been filed; the clock is ticking. Laches is an equitable concept. This would be a court of law.

    • The doctrine of “unclean hands” is also part of equity.

      That doctrine says one cannot benefit from their own misdeeds.

      A statute of limitations is an enactment in a common law legal system that sets forth the maximum time after an event that legal proceedings based on that event may be initiated.

      The filing of a criminal complaint is considered to be the initiation of proceedings.

      • I wasn’t seriously trying to suggest that the statute of limitations might be a defense here when the charges were obviously filed withing the statutory period. I was being facetious.

        For me this is the money quote from the RCP article:
        The triviality of the offenses is compounded by the women’s un-victim-like behavior afterward: Ardin had sex with Assange again and threw a party for him; Wilen made him breakfast. It was only when the women learned of his two-timing that they went to the police — initially intending to force him to get tested for sexually transmitted diseases.”

        These women were not followed into an elevator in their building then raped, as is happen in my neighborhood. I’m sorry (not really) but I question their motives.

  12. Well I’ve read Steig Larsson’s Girl With a Dragon Tattoo and the 2 others and I have no illusions about the Swedish govt and their position in this at all. Larsson and his partner of 20 years did not get married so no one would target her for what he was researching and uncovering so now his family is claiming all his money posthumously. They are as nasty there and as they are here. So why did Sptizer get dragged through the dirt at exactly the right time?
    You all need to read Baudrillard and his writing on deterrence.

  13. Sorry but these women do not seem so innocent to me. I’ve walked out of worse situations in my life. Safely.

    • Prostitutes can be (and frequently are) raped.

      Even if a woman consents to sex and then during intercourse she changes her mind the man must stop.

      Force or fear is not an element of rape.

      • Even if a woman consents to sex and then during intercourse she changes her mind the man must stop.

        Sorry. But I think THAT’s just wront. Sexual energy is a force that once you set it in motion, you better be prepared to handle it. But as someone said in an earlier thread: rape isn’t about sex, it’s about power. That’s why I’ve always believed that once consent is given, rape charges should not stand because it begs the question who is playing power games?

        • You may think it’s wrong but it’s the law.

        • It seems like in your mind, once a woman consents to a man, it is impossible for her to ever be raped by the same man. If that is true, then it is also true that a woman can never be raped by her husband or boyfriend because she had consensual sex with them before. And anyone who isn’t a misogynist knows that is simply not true. If a woman tells her husband that she does not want to have sex or if she tells him to wear a condom and he still proceeds to have unprotected sex with her, it is still rape. It doesn’t matter if they have 10 kids together and have been married for 20 years.

          • First please stop with the misogyny name calling. Secondly, you don”t know what’s in my mind, so don’t go there.

            Yes in my mind, once a woman consents to a man, rape charges shouldn’t follow that particular act. I’m not suggesting thereby that a woman gives blanket consent for sex every time a prior sexual partner, be it husband or casual friend, wants to have sex.

            This is a complex issue particularly when the accuser and accused are not strangers. For me there is a larger issue here. One that is being thrown into the lap of the criminal justice system when it really doesn’t belong there. Namely respect for the wishes of others; particularly those we are supposed to have caring feelings for.

          • Um, yes. Someone who agrees that a woman cannot be raped with a man she has consented to have sex with should be deemed a misogynist or at least someone ignorant enough to believe misogynistic arguments.

            In the allegations made against Assange, none of the women changes their mind in the middle of having intercourse. According to the allegations, both women implied in their actions and words before penetration that they did not want to have sex with him.

            If a woman repeatedly says or implies in her actions (trying to put her clothes back on or leave the room, etc.) “NO, I do not want to have sex/unprotected sex with you!” and the man is still successful in penetrating her before the woman goes along with it, the act is still deemed to be rape. If a woman signals to a man that she is uncomfortable through her words or actions (i.e. see above) and he pressures her into having sex/unprotected sex with him, it is rape. If a woman wakes up to find a man having sex with her, the act can be deemed as rape as she was not awake to have given consent.

            And yes, this has a lot to do with respect on both sides. According to the allegations, Assange did not respect or care enough for these women to obey their wishes or have protected sex with them when both women repeatedly told/implied that they did not want to have unprotected sex.

        • Funny how it is alway the woman who has to “handle” the sexual force — the guys get a free pass on that, I guess.

          And yeah, when a woman tells you to stop even when you are both naked & rolling around in bed & the guy doesn’t that is him asserting his POWER over her.

          I’m honestly shocked at your arguments. The assumption that these women are “vengeful sluts,” your nonchalance about their identies being made public & Assange’s lawyers dragging them through the mud in the media is exactly why 60% of rapes go unreported and, of the 40% reported the conviction rate is only about 17%. We need to make it EASIER for women to come forward, not harder.

        • I tend to agree with the clown on this one, as that is something men argued when raping their wives and today it is recognized as rape. So, legally the myiq2xu is correct. Sorry, Jonnie, but that is the law and that is why sex is considered ‘reciprocal’, and agreeable by both parties.

          It was the Taliban that recently passed a law and that the ‘Democratic’ government endorsed that said men could rape their wives. 😯

          AFGHANISTAN: New law strips Shi’ite women of their rights and allows rape in marriage

        • Jonie,

          Married women faced what would be termed torture, after giving birth and that is why in many cultures, there is the 40 days waiting period after a woman gives birth. Some women recover quickly others don’t especially if they have an episiotomy or vaginal tear from labor.

          So, many governments began to recognize this torture and thus the medical community also, does support the women in this situation and often women will ask if it is OK to have sex when being pressured by their spouses.

          Will childbirth affect your sex life?

          Yes, it certainly will! So please don’t expect that everything will instantly return to normal. Men are particularly likely to believe this; a lot of young blokes think that they’ll be able to have intercourse as soon as their partner gets home from hospital. But that just isn’t true.

          You see, childbirth is a pretty traumatic process for a woman. Having a baby pass through her vagina is almost like having a small explosion go off inside her. The delicate vaginal tissues are inevitably strained, bruised and torn – and it takes some weeks for these injuries to heal up.

          Furthermore, childbirth involves very considerable hormone changes – as well as emotional stresses. And as a consequence, very, very few women feel rampagingly sexy until a long time after they have given birth.

          Therefore, it’s important for both mother and father to realise that lovemaking may not go brilliantly in the first six months or so after Baby arrives. So be prepared – and be patient!
          http://www.netdoctor.co.uk/sex_relationships/facts/sexdelivery.htm

      • Good luck drawing a law around then.

        The other side of the coin is that a women COULD accuse her partner of not respecting her request, and he claims that they had implicit agreement. What do you do? Sign a legal document before having sex, including all the lurid details?

        Of course, “no means no”. I know that. Date rape is common. I know that too.

        Meanwhile, no such fervent discussions of ONGOING kidnapping of girls in the world and forcing them to sexual slavery exist! Perhaps because powerful and well-connected men (as well as western men (among other) on vacation, with a bit of spare money, are the clients.

        It really pisses me off,

    • None of us can or should relate our personal sexual experiences with women who may have been unfortunate not to have gotten out of their situations safely. Maybe you were simply lucky not to have ended up with a psychopathic rapist or murderer. Regardless of whether or not the allegations are true, any woman could easily end up in the situations that were described. Just because someone doesn’t have the physical marks to prove they were raped doesn’t mean it didn’t happen or that they didn’t try hard enough to walk out of the situation. Every woman reacts differently. Many women are in such shock when they are attacked by a man they thought they could trust that they are physically unable to defend themselves. It’s still rape.

      • But what happens to a man’s right to rely on consent when rape can be all in the mind of the woman?

        • What happens to a woman’s right to control her own body when consent may be all in the mind of a man?

        • Based on the allegations that were reported, if they are in fact true, Assange was given clear signals that what he was doing had crossed the line into rape territory. I’m not saying the allegations are true, but I don’t understand how people can defend the actions that Assange has been accused of:

          According to her statement she “tried to put on some articles of clothing as it was going too quickly and uncomfortably but Assange ripped them off again”.

          She told police that she had tried a number of times to reach for a condom but Assange had stopped her by holding her arms and pinning her legs.

          Early the next morning, Miss W told police, she had gone to buy breakfast before getting back into bed and falling asleep beside Assange. She had awoken to find him having sex with her, she said, but when she asked whether he was wearing a condom he said no.

          • The reports are conflicting. The real facts will come out in court or through depositions. So far this thread has been going on for some time and you, DVoter, have been the only one who’s seen fit to resort to name calling so I will return the favor and call you an A$$hole; too insecure to believe their arguments can stand on their own and most resort to vitriol.

          • No, I never resorted to name calling. I’ve been giving clear and calm arguments based on the allegations that were reported. You’re the one who has apparently lost your cool to call me an asshole. I simply laugh in your face because I am not going to stoop to your level. Good to know that you are the person who knows the “real facts” while the rest of us including the Guardian are simply reporting lies made by those “sluts”. This will be the last time I respond directly to you.

          • When the Daily Mail reported on the allegations back in August (supposedly from the same police report), many of these elements were not mentioned:

            http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1307137/Supporters-dismissed-rape-accusations-WikiLeaks-founder-Julian-Assange–women-involved-tell-different-story.html

            Is there an actual copy of the report anywhere, or are we stuck reading spun versions in various UK papers?

    • Ah yes, the stupid sluts *must* have wanted it defense. Always a popular one.

  14. hmmm i think whats happenhing is that some that have traded ole Julian with almost hero worship
    find out that he not so much of a hero and has a shady past . 1st they go into denail then defence mode of there one time mabe hero . and no matter what happens someones out to get ole Julian in their eyes.

  15. Sweden is hardly some puppet government that can be counted on to railroad Assange on CIA orders.

    I don’t know if he’s being railroaded or not. In any case, I’m not sure the CIA would necessarily be the ones interested in railroading him – I think it’s far more likely to be the financial institution whose documents Wikileaks is supposedly about to release.

  16. the CIA would not railroad ole Julian they would simply make him disappear.

    • It depends. It might be more useful to completely discredit him, since Wikileaks would doubtless survive his disappearance.

  17. I have absolutely no problem believing he is BOTH and anti-establishment hero and a rapist. What I don’t understand is why those so-called progressives do.

  18. “Um, yes. Someone who agrees that a woman cannot be raped with a man she has consented to have sex with should be deemed a misogynist or at least someone ignorant enough to believe misogynistic arguments”

    Misogynist, ignorant … I call that name calling. You’re so ignorant you can’t comprehend a complete sentence. I wrote the real facts will come out in court. I don’t make any claims to knowing the real facts, moron. By the way I have on quarrel with “the rest of us including the Guardian” only you.

    My point, which will continue to be my point, whether you or anyone else finds it misogynistic or not, is that the law often over reaches in rape cases where consent was given at some point during the conquest.

    • The law often overreaches in rape cases? Yeah, we have SO MANY men getting convicted of rape in this country, the law is just too d@mn broad. Your outrage should be focused on the fact that 60% of rapes go unreported and there is only a 17% conviction rate on the 40% of reported rapes. Taking the unreported rapes into account ONLY 6% OF ALL RAPISTS SERVE TIME. But please, reserve your arguments and energies to help protect the men who are committing the rapes.

    • So rape is a women’s problem. Unbelievable.

      • What planet are you women on that you can’t understand nuance? YOU give women a bad name.

        First of all, AngieNC, I’m not “outraged” that much overused and hackneyed word. I’m somewhat too jaded at this stage of my life to be outraged.

        Secondly, bit underhanded to truncate my sentence so as to change it’s meaning. The sentence in it’s entirety reads: ” the law often over reaches in rape cases where consent was given at some point during the conquest.” You should apply for a job with Hannity.

        Assuming you’re right, 60% of rape cases go unreported yet YOU just happen to know about them; including the exact percentage. of the 40% of reported cases, the conviction rate is 17%. That couldn’t possibly be because those guys are innocent. Perish the thought!! or the standard of proof just couldn’t be met. no,no, never. Our society just lets rapists walk because we hate women.

        “Taking the unreported rapes into account ONLY 6% OF ALL RAPISTS SERVE TIME.” “unreported” but you have not only heard of them but tried them and found them all guilty. Keep up the good work

        Three Wickets: So rape is a women’s problem. I don’t know how you extrapolate that from anything I wrote, so I simply have now answer except back at ya: unbelievable.

        • It isn’t me — it is RAINN — the Rape Abuse & Incest National Network — who gathered those stats. See for yourself:

          http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

          I didn’t misreprent anything you said — you are the one making the case that once a man has “consent” at the beginning of the act, the woman is not allowed to change her mind at a later moment in the act. That is bullshit. You, my dear, are part of the RAPE CULTURE in this country — and the sad thing is, you don’t even f*cking know it. You are part of the problem and it is attitude like yours that gets rapists off at trial – not because the rapists are innocent but because they jury believes those stupid bitches wanted it.

          • Why they gotta be stupid bitches? I just think a person should be able to make good faith reliance that when an adult says yes they mean yes and not maybe. it’s like if I hail a cab, I don’t expect him to throw me out before I’ve reached my destination even though I haven’t paid him yet. If I’m standing on the same corner the next day looking for a cab again and the same driver comes by, I don’t expect that he has to stop today just because he drove me yesterday.

            By the way, I don’t believe everything I read so you can quote all the statistics you want. Rape Culture is a phrase that reeks of political agenda so I won’t buy into it. Once again, too jaded.

            Also I’ve never been on a jury, something about that JD, they won’t let you on. But if I were ever to be on a rape trial jury, trust me, I wouldn’t be swayed by hysteria from either side.

          • If the woman is the passenger, she has a right to object if the cab driver takes her east when she asked to go west. If OTOH the woman is the cab driver in your analogy, then I guess the passenger man has a right to be fully serviced as long as he pays the fare…whatever form that fare takes. Either way, it’s not a good analogy imo.

          • You do not have a JD — I refuse to believe there is a law school in the world that would graduate you or a state bar that you could pass when you draw analogies between rape and a cab ride. Furthermore, you can’t seem to distinguish the difference between “No” and “Yes.” Hell, at this point I don’t even believe you are a women because you certainly have the dude mindset with your Rape Apologia tour in this thread. Do yourself a favor and stop saying all this stupid sh!t out loud so people can see how crazy you really are.

          • Bad analogy indeed…

        • And yes, our society just lets rapists walk because we hate women. That, right there, is the only TRUE thing you said in this thread. Sadly, you thought you were being sarcastic.

          • I don’t believe our society hates women. I just don’t. That’s where I’m coming from. Mostly men keep women subjugated because it benefits them financially. But they don’t hate women; they really don’t, but you’re free to believe what ever you want.

        • savebradley Pfc. Bradley Manning
          by Emperor_Bob
          “Accused solider [Pfc. Bradley Manning] offered plea bargain if he names #WikiLeaks founder” as a co-conspirator: http://ind.pn/hCiz1U

          Any news of Bush’s efforts and President Obama’s efforts to capture Osama Bin Laden!

        • The conviction rate when the woman has the courage to report the rape is 17%. You see nothing wrong with that number…that 83% of the time when a woman voluntarily reports being raped, she must either be over reacting or making shit up. The man must have been right. Unbelievable. I am very familiar with parts of the world where men get such favored treatment over women. I didn’t think we were one of those places.

          • And maybe we’re not; except to those who’re disposed to believe the statistic. Who’s compililng those numbers? and what’s their agenda?

  19. National Security
    Lawmakers Discuss
    Constitutional Issues Raised by WikiLeaks

    Officials in Washington, DC and abroad have widely condemned the publishing of secret documents by the WikiLeaks website. With its latest document dispatches in November, the site initiated the simultaneous publishing of State Department confidential cables with foreign embassies in the New York Times and four European newspapers.

    Senator Joe Lieberman (I-CT), Chairman of the Homeland Security Committee said in a Fox News interview that WikiLeaks should be prosecuted for violating the Espionage Act. Regarding the New York Times and other news outlets, Lieberman added “whether they have committed a crime is a matter of discussion for the justice department.”
    http://cspan.org/Events/Lawmakers-Discuss-Constitutional-Issues-Raised-by-WikiLeaks/10737418252-1/

    Conyers, makes some very interesting points.

  20. G’night all…

  21. People should go to the original story from the Guardian and after reading it, one has not choice but to call the rape charge hooey. The first woman gave a party to Assange after spending a week with him? What’s up with that? And the second charge is just as ludicrous.

  22. Ms A

    Assange left the lunch with Miss W. She told the police she and Assange had visited the place where she worked and had then gone to a cinema where they had moved to the back row. He had kissed her and put his hands inside her clothing, she said.

    That evening, Miss A held a party at her flat.

    Ms. W

    However, during the night, they had both woken up and had sex at least once when “he agreed unwillingly to use a condom”.

    Like how many times? Go Assange!

  23. OK, having read the Guardian account, I am reminded of a joke from the old country:
    Mrs Rabbit returns home after one night missing and tells Mr rabbit that she has been raped by the weasel for 3 days.
    “3 days?” wonders Mr Rabbit. You have only been away one day.
    “True, but I have to go back tomorrow, and the following day too”
    There’s a limit to the circumstances of coercion, me thinks.

  24. @JakeTapper: “YOU’RE Thor? I’ve been thpewing rathitht nonthenth all day, how do you think *I* feel?” — moron at Council of Conservative Citizens

    I checked these guys out yesterday after seeing Jake post this. Quite a freaky bunch. I’m pretty sure though that some mirror equivalent radical group exists on the far left…just not sure what they call themselves.

  25. Anglachel, famous for her “all men are r@pists or r@pist sympathizers” delusions, must be positively thrilled to read some of the comments here.

    • Well….many men are.

    • Folks really read too much into that one post. I doubt Anglachal hates all men and believe they are all rapists. It is true that many men in the world are rape sympathizers or even rapists themselves. Not all, but too many. There was an article recently that said 1 in 3 men in South Africa admitted to raping a woman.

  26. Those who believe these charges are part of some big government conspiracy, “a honey pot” trap, need to go get some education about sexual assault and the courts. Recently Sweden was confronted for having one of the lowest rape conviction rates in the civilized world, down around 10%. If a government wanted to set somebody up, they’d pick a charge that was more effective.

    The theory of government honeypots is a Hollywood myth. The idea that women like to set men up with false rape charges is also a myth. It doesn’t take a whole lot of research to learn that rape is one of the most difficult charges to prove, with some of the lowest rates of conviction. And victims are smeared, violated, and drug through the mud. Participating in a rape trial can be like being raped all over again. There is almost nothing to be gained from subjecting yourself to the process, which is why the vast majority of rapes are not even reported. If I were advising somebody I cared about about whether or not to report it, I would discourage them from putting themselves through that. That is the reality.

    • Ever heard of Tawana Brawley?

      • Yes I have heard of Tawana Brawley. Have you? Did you know she was violently beaten at home? Did you know that her stepfather stabbed his first wife 11 times, later shooting and killing her? Did you know he often talked about sexually assaulting Tawana? Did you know that to this day, Tawana maintains that she was raped?

        Does it ever occur to anyone that a child is unlikely to get naked, cut her hair, smear herself in feces, and climb into a garbage bag, unless she is experiencing some major form of trauma somewhere in her life??

        • Still, the men she accused were innocent, were they?

          • I have no idea. Do you? They were never put on trial.

            I can tell you one thing, if a troubled 15 yr old had accused me of something and If I were a decent person, I would not, 23 years later, still be making statements like “I hope she has to pay for this every single day of her life.” That girl clearly suffered atrocious child abuse and I would expect those men to show some human decency and compassion for a child abuse victim, not be wishing more suffering upon her, two decades later. What did the men in this case suffer? Bruised egos and huge defamation of character settlements.

        • Does it ever occur to anyone that a child is unlikely to get naked, cut her hair, smear herself in feces, and climb into a garbage bag, unless she is experiencing some major form of trauma somewhere in her life??

          Sound like you’re using a really crappy childhood as justification for committing horrendous or evil acts later in life. Hope I read that wrong.

    • Weather Girl Cries Rape?

    • Now, I have said that I am willing to hear the case out, and I frankly didn’t want to point out that some individuals do for a variety of reasons. Now, I have not said these women are liars or any other negatives. I have watched as how, the meme of Assange is ‘Gay’ came out and every said hoo wee, so what, and then this came out next and then was dropped, then got legs again and has now gotten Interpol warrant.

      Anyone have any news on the Gore incident? Nope, no Interpol involvement there and Cheney’s former boss has paid out millions and charges are dropped.

      Oh, by the way, Assange doesn’t have a big legal defense fund, and yes, my take is they will fight the warrant because they will fear that he will be sent to the US and the US has the death penalty and several high level politicians have asked for the death penalty and some said to HUNT HIM DOWN and others, even in Canada have said he should be assassinated. I think, with the meme of the ‘Albino Rapist’ and the word ‘Molestation’ his reputation has already taken a hit, and any woman even asking for Due Process / A Fair Trial will have her WOMAN CREDENTIALS questioned and said to support rapists (which I have never done).

      Oh, but it sure has stopped people and the press talkig about the 15,000 people killed in Iraq that were counted but not reported. LOOK over there, meme is working and no one is talking about the Escalation of another WAR with North and South Korea. Nor are we talking about how the US was pushing for South Korea to do the exercises and sent ships there in support.

      What comes to mind is the big talk of the fight comment of ‘They bring a knife, you bring a gun’…OK, so now what? Oh, and who is doing the PEACE TALKS as a ‘PRIVATE PERSON’…Bill Richardson…that guy Obama tossed to the side.

  27. Angie, I had to go to bed, so I didn’t see you assinine comment till today. But just so you know, I earned my JD in 1985. When did you get yours?

    In the days when I practiced, I was admitted to the bar State of New York (state and federal), State of Florida and the United States Supreme Court. You? Stop being so invested in the woman- as-victim trope and maybe you will then be able to understand rational analysis

  28. @ClaraJeffery: RT @markor: When Ron Paul, Larry Flynt and Michael Moore are all rallying around Assange, it’s time to start running the other way. #wikileaks

    • @markor: Wikileaks dump is clearly meant to undermine the diplomatic process, which only increases the likelihood of war.

      • Sh@t Mate, I tell ya, we have to stop Assange from ordering US WAR ships into the Korean Peninsula in support of military exercises by South Korea, it could raise tensions and might escalate the WAR DRUMS in the region.

        Assange YOU STOP THAT RIGHT NOW!

      • Bullshit! It’s intended to let a bit of truth out. I don’t care who it upsets. It’s good to know what’s being done in our name.

  29. Angie, I had to go to bed, so I didn’t see you assinine comment regarding my education or lack thereof until today. But just so you know, I earned my JD in 1985. When did you get yours?

    In the days when I practiced, I was admitted to the bar State of New York (state and federal), State of Florida and the United States Supreme Court. You? Stop being so invested in the woman- as-victim trope and maybe you will then be able to understand rational analysis

    • Joanie,

      I am sorry it got personal and I haven’t seen the comment as I went to bed early too as I had my last final (Going to start my second phase in life via a change.).

      (((Cyber Hug)))

      It is a sticky one, can you support a man’s right to due process without losing your woman credentials? Can you support Freedom of The Press and Freedom of Speech without being called a traitor?

      The WikiLeaks and the Assange allegations are tough, to ponder and more so, if you have an Civil Liberties perspective. The latter often doesn’t make you popular, as even in first arguing about Gay Rights being Civil Rights, I got called naughty names and well I am not gay, but sheesh, I guess they were trying to offend.

      The use of ‘Albino’ was too transparent to me, but then I have my own personal history to draw on there. Most people might not even know or be aware of what is going on subliminally (By using ‘Albino’), to dehumanize Assange and therefore making it alright to kill him.

      Any hoo, I am sorry it got personal and I hope I didn’t offend you as you know, I love to banter back and forth with you and the others here.

      • Thank you Woman Voter. You at least are rational; and not angry. A lot of the commenters here seem angry. I don’t get that. I don’t believe any of us knows Assange or the accusers, so distance should give us a better perspective.

        My point throughout this thread was a simple one, to wit, whether or not a intercourse on a particular occasion constituted rape is a more difficult conclusion when the accused and accuser are not strangers and had a pre-existing sexual relationship.

        I found the push back here astounding. I also find the woman-as-perennial -victim as tiresome and annoying as black people-as-perennial-victim. I belong to both groups but I refuse to buy into victimhood and try to judge each situation objectively. I love the banter here also, but some people get too deep. As they say in the hood: it’s not that ser-i-ous.

    • Hey Joannie — I have my JD from Tulane University & my LLM from Georgetown both with honors. I’m admitted to the bar in LA, NC and TX (and I passed each one the FIRST TIME) so F*CK YOU you sanctimonious piece of sh!t You throw your JD around as if it makes you *smart* when every word out of your mouth shows how stupid and irrational you are. Now I’m sure you are the FIRST PERSON EVA H to even go to college in your family because of the pride you take in the fact that you have a JD, but I’m not. I know that there are just as many stupid attoneys in this world as anything esle — and you , my dear, are proof of that. SO, again: GO F*CK YOURSELF and don’t you EVER dare to address me again.

      • “Now I’m sure you are the FIRST PERSON EVA H to even go to college in your family because of the pride you take in the fact that you have a JD, but I’m not.”
        Sorry asshole, I’m not. Older sister graduated from Harvard University, class of 1976; twin from Wellesley College Class of 1977and I from Boston University Class of 1977. So kiss my ass!!!

        I know that there are just as many stupid attoneys in this world as anything esle” you should know, you’re one.

        “don’t you EVER dare to address me again.” who the fuck are you again?

      • “Now I’m sure you are the FIRST PERSON EVA H to even go to college in your family because of the pride you take in the fact that you have a JD, but I’m not.” Sorry asshole, I’m not the first. Older sister graduated from Harvard University, class of 1976; twin from Wellesley College Class of 1977and I from Boston University Class of 1977; mother graduated from college too.
        so kiss my ass!!! Why would I have to be the first person in order to be proud of my JD; I earned it. By you reasoning then I guess you’re not proud of yours. Asshole.

        I know that there are just as many stupid attoneys in this world as anything esle” you should know, you’re one.

        “don’t you EVER dare to address me again.” who the fuck are you again?

    • Who knew. I thought only boys bragged about the size of their credentials.

      • credentials aren’t relevant to anything I’m saying here. But since AngieNC said there’s no way I could have a JD, I had to let her know where to get off. She doesn’t believe I”m a woman because I don’t buy into the victimization meme. Maybe I should arrange for her to get a peek at my you know what. She got personal in a way that I usually don’t and I’ve been comment here for some time.

        She’s so emotional I doubt she’s a good lawyer but that’s for her clients to decide.

  30. While I’m waiting for my first animated masterpiece {{snort!}} to render, let me add my uninformed opinion to this.
    I have no idea who is right or wrong here. It doesn’t quite seem like rape. Well, maybe the first incident with Miss A does. The second one doesn’t. It’s very hard to have someone have sex with you while you’re sleeping. Take this from personal experience. Pretty quickly, you wake up and figure out what’s going on before piece A gets inserted into slot B.
    The whole thing is very weird. What is with these passive Swedish women? It doesn’t sound as thought it would have taken that much effort to tell him to back the fuck off. And yes, I have been in situations where force was used in a date rape situation and I still managed to get away.
    Now, am I saying they weren’t raped? No. If they say it, then I will have to take their word for it. But let’st just say that I am not convinced. It sounds like they needed to try little more assertiveness on their part. That’s not to say that he wasn’t totally wrong for pushing himself on them. I just don’t quite buy it.
    If I were on a jury, I’d want to be convinced. So far, I’m not.
    Now, I realize that there are a lot of women on this blog who will protest. But I don’t assume that every incident of seduction is rape. Rape is a very serious accusation to make and it should carry very serious consequences. So, it shouldn’t be thrown around lightly.
    The timing still stinks. It makes me suspect that mountains were made out of molehills. Once again, I don’t have all of the facts and I wasn’t there. But if I were a man, I would be pretty pissed that every interaction with a woman is considered rape unless she gives explicit verbal consent to every action. That would take the fire out of any relationship and no one would be safe from rape accusations.

    • Thank you, RD. At least with you at the helm, I know this blog won’t turn into Shakesville II. 🙂

    • Thanks RD.

      A thought just came to me. RAPE like RACISM is a very serious accusation indeed. RAPE (including date rape, groping, assault) should be stopped, but it should be thrown to smear and tar people.

      People on this blog should remember how much it stung to be called racists, and how it stung for the press to run away with the “Clintons are racists” meme.

      • Sorry, for the typos!!

        …, but it should NOT be thrown around to smear and tar people.

        Grrrrrrrrrrr!!!

    • If the news reports are to be believed, both women insisted that Assange use a condom in order to protect themselves. When Assange persisted in having sex without a condom, he violated the women.

      I don’t know what your personal experience was, RD, but I investigated rapes of all kinds for many years and it’s not all that difficult to complete penetration from the rear when a woman is asleep.

      • And maybe that is why this is not rape. The person in question was aware of the fact that Assange was initiating sex and the condition of his condom. Just sayin, JeanLouise. It sounds like one of dead of night things that happen when you’re sleeping with someone. You had a satsifying roll in the hay a few hours before and in the middle of the night, you get up to do it again. But while he’s not too tired to fuck, he is too sleepy to get up and find another rubber. So, he tries to talk her into not using one. She objects, he’s persistent. She gives in. I’ll bet it happens all around the world thousands of times a night. There aren’t too many of us who would file a rape charge over something like that.
        Yes, there are situations where it is unambiguously rape and there is forcible penetration. No one in their right mind would deny that this happens.
        But my scenario is a lot more plausible. We’ve all been through it. It’s dark. You can’t find your jeans with the extra condom in it. You’re too tired to get up and reapply more spermicide to the diaphragm. Can’t remember if you took your pill that day but what the hell. You probably did but even if you didn’t, you’re probably safe. Oh sure there’s that little nagging voice but if you just give in you can go back to sleep in a little bit….
        Not every occurence is a rape. Let us at least acknowledge that there are other explanations for what happened. I can’t take people seriously if they don’t admit that human nature can sometimes not be our best friends but it doesn’t cross into forcible rape.

        • She gives in.
          *************************
          The point is that she didn’t give in. He did. He reluctantly used a condom earlier.

          Clearly, I need to say it again. Force is not a necessary element of rape. The non-consensual rape of an unconscious person is rape. Assange was well aware that the accuser did not want to have unprotected sex but he overruled her and took what he wanted. That is rape.

          • From my point of view, force is an absolutely necessary requirement of rape. My definition of rape is that you have no choice in the matter. You are physically incapicitated to the state that you no longer have the ability to prevent penetration. If you are unconscious or drunk beyond comprehension, you probably can’t prevent penetration. THAT is rape in my book. If it’s anything less than that, it’s not rape to me.
            Sleep does not qualify. I’m sorry but I just don’t buy it. Very, Very few people can sleep through sex or the initiation of sex.
            By the way, I was struck by this part of Violet’s rant:

            I read the Guardian piece with the details of the Swedish charges. It’s all so completely, entirely, 100% believable and familiar. The asshole who pushes you, who takes advantage. Feeling humiliated and angry and baffled. Wondering what you did to cause it or allow it—because as women we always know that it’s our fault somehow. Somehow we made it happen, somehow we weren’t clear enough when we said “no.” Seething inwardly for a week, furious and ashamed, blaming ourselves.

            That passage sounds an awful lot like regret for making a mistake, for trusting someone who was a complete and utter asshole. But it doesn’t sound like rape to me. It sounds like bad judgement on both party’s part.

    • RD, I really like thinking of you as a subject matter expert in “Back The Fuck Off” and that’s not ironic 😉

      The only thing I have to add is that the latest stories — assuming them to be true* — have Assange borrowing cash for the train from the woman when they’re going back to her place — because he’s afraid his card would be traced. I mean, WTF? He’s worried about being surveilled and so he’s going off to have sex with somebody he doesn’t hardly know?! Lousy tradecraft, to say the least.

      NOTE * Though who knows. From the purely technical, blogospheric perspective, one of the more annoying features of this mishagoss is the way that any semblance of a media critique has been thrown to the winds.

  31. It doesn’t sound as thought it would have taken that much effort to tell him to back the fuck off. And yes, I have been in situations where force was used in a date rape situation and I still managed to get away
    I, too, have escaped some very dodgy situations, Perhaps we were both lucky or, perhaps, the men were insufficiently motivated.
    But millions of women aren’t so lucky and it’s not due to lack of character or “balls” on their part.
    To the original question, Assange can be both.
    As I remember, Eldridge Cleaver, author of “Soul on Ice” was both an anti-establishment hero and a proud, unrepentant rapist.
    As Lennon put it, woman really is the en word of the world.
    And, yes, I am that old.

    • I wouldn’t deny that Lennon was right, especially in a political sense.
      BUT I think women don’t give themselves enough credit. They can certainly influence the outcome of events most of the time. Oh sure, there will be rapes that can’t be prevented. But the aggressive seductions? I’m sorry, I just don’t buy it. I prefer to give women more agency than that.
      That being said, Assange may be a violent creep who doesn’t care what he does to women. I wouldn’t rule it out. i just have to be convinced of what exactly he did.

    • Thanks for pointing that out. “Managing to get away” sounds an awful lot like “she didn’t fight hard enough so it wasn’t rape.”

      Rape is about consent, not about the level of effort the victim put into getting away. It has nothing to do with one’s strength of character or one’s cleverness or a demonstration of one’s wrestling skills or any particular person’s likelihood (or experience) in waking up when someone is trying to have sex with you..

  32. No law degree, here, but the allegations from the women appear to be not so much about rape , but something that is possibly worse. HIV / AIDS.
    The issue seems to be about UNprotected sex. Both womens’ complaint were an effort to force Assange to get tested..
    The reason their allegations come up after they discovered Assange was having multiple sex partners was to make him get tested because of the multiple part….
    Was charging him with rape the only way to make that happen? Those women have a right to know if they are at risk.

    Is there a law that can require an HIV test without
    rape charges? Maybe the law hasn’t kept up with the crime?

    • IS: That sounds like a good idea.

      • Yes, let’s look at the AID/HIV awareness part of this story and also point out that there are female condoms to for double protection:

        &

        Oh, everyone knows that if you carry those condoms in the wallet for months on in, they will BRAKE! Also, exposure to heat and sun will damage the condoms too and of course you must have the RIGHT size.

        ;lol: I just realized look who you got talking about sex… 😆 protection!

        Married people should practice safe sex too.

    • I believe in some states that is possible after a healthcare worker has been potentially exposed, say through a needlestick. Other states the exposed nurse or other healthcare worker cannot expect the patient to be tested.

  33. Human sexuality is one more of an infinity of proofs that no kind and intelligent Creator could have made this hell called “life”.

    • Amen to that

    • Er, I actually appreciate the human sexuality thing that God/Goddess/Supreme Universal Energy created. It’s not sexuality that’s the problem. It’s inconsiderate, power mad assholes. And they occur in both genders.

  34. Violet Socks:

    Rape Culture

    That’s why all the men are backing Assange. It’s why they don’t understand what he did wrong (allegedly), or even care what he did wrong, or even have the faintest clue what it’s like to be a woman living in a rape culture.

    I read the Guardian piece with the details of the Swedish charges. It’s all so completely, entirely, 100% believable and familiar. The asshole who pushes you, who takes advantage. Feeling humiliated and angry and baffled. Wondering what you did to cause it or allow it—because as women we always know that it’s our fault somehow. Somehow we made it happen, somehow we weren’t clear enough when we said “no.” Seething inwardly for a week, furious and ashamed, blaming ourselves.

    I understand completely what happened in Sweden. And I can imagine completely what happened when the two women compared notes. Oh shit. You mean he just does this? You mean it wasn’t just me?

    Sweden is supposed to be a feminist-friendly country. I imagine there has been discussion over there in the past decades about changing rape culture, about making it so that women don’t just suffer silently, furious and ashamed and blaming themselves; about changing things so that women can push back. I bet that’s why these Swedish women felt emboldened to report Assange. Yeah! Let’s report the asshole! He’s a serial abuser!

    […]

    Remember Anita Hill? Remember how men said asinine shit like, “any woman who has really been harassed isn’t going to keep working for the guy, even follow him to a new assignment!” (As if there weren’t harrassers everywhere; as if women could or should sacrifice their own jobs and careers in order to file claims that wouldn’t even be believed or taken seriously.) And how you realized then, if you hadn’t realized it before, that there is a gigantic, Grand Canyon-sized chasm between your experience of life as a woman and their utterly oblivious male-privileged existence?

    Yeah. Like that.

    • Great post. I can always count on Violet to be the voice of reason.

    • If I were a woman, I would be insulted by that. Women of my acquaintance are generally not weak people who don’t know how to assertively say NO for themselves. She seems to see all women as perpetual victims who can’t seem to help themselves.

      • Oh, and let’s not forget SAFE SEX!

        Naked Gun Love Scene

      • I’m not insulted because she is right.

        Being a strong assertive woman sometimes involves being demeaned and called unserious by men and other women. What makes them strong women is that they are willing to face it anyway.

        The strong women you know are able to get back up again and fight some more even though sometimes it probably didn’t work for them either. You should ask them some time, every strong woman I’ve ever met has stories…

      • Women you know are not all women. Does it make sense that women who don’t meet your standard of ‘generally not weak people’ are out of luck, on their own, probably their fault, when they experience acquaintance rape.

      • Women are at a disadvantage in sexual situations and it’s not because they are weak in their hearts or character. They are physically weaker and have been socialized to acquiesce to men even in situations in which they feel uncomfortable.

        • Look, just because X has been the way the world works in the past does not mean that X has to become a permanent fixture of the way things operate. By continually insisting that it is the case, you may be perpetuating the problem. While it is true that women have less upper body strength, that doesn’t mean they can’t be taught self defense. And by self defense, I don’t mean just the physical kind. I mean the mental kind. Women have been taught mental toughness and how to value their own sexuality. It can be done.
          Seriously, I am getting fed up with reading about how women are always the weaker sex and vulnerable to attack and always, always the victims of male sexual predators who could be anyone, stranger or friend. They are never responsible for their actions. Let’s just forget that women are conditioned to not agree to sex in the first place. They must be in love. They must be coerced. They can never have control of their own sexuality and just want sex because they’re horny.
          If I believed all that, I’d never leave my house. The fact that we don’t all get raped in the street every minute of the day is a complete miracle if I listened to some of you. This is no way to live.
          The “rape culture” meme is idiotic. I completely reject it. There is violent forced rape and then there is something else that is not rape. If it is not forced, if you can get away, get out of bed, assertively push your partner away, reason with the penis, then it’s not rape. Let’s stop trivializing it.

      • If that’s what you read into Violet’s comments, then you need to read it again. It has nothing to do with “weakness”. It has everything to do with the constant reminders to STFU about violence and sexual assault and the million ways you’re acculturated to doubt yourself no matter how strong you are.

        And can we deprecate telling women what they should/should not be insulted by? Until you walk a mile, and all that. Thx in advance.

        • I’ve been a feminist all my life and I have been in several scary situations. I HAVE walked that mile. But I’m sorry. I completely reject this variety of feminism.
          If you want equality, you have to take control and responsibility. You can’t always be blaming someone else for things you regret in the morning. And by this I do not mean violent, forced rape. I am talking about that gray area of sexual interactions.
          If you want sex, regardless of what the consequences are, then you need to accept responsibility for that. We don’t live in Somalia where girls get married at 12 and are forced to have sex with older men. This is not Darfur where women are used to punish their culture. This is the United States of America in the 21st century. I REFUSE to be a victim and I am not bringing my kid up to think that way either.
          Own your sexuality and use it wisely. Save the accusations of rape for criminal actions.

    • Yeah like she’s seriously into victim hood. I’ve never been forcibly raped, so I don’t claim to know what that experience is like. But I have had strange men, especially on the subway and in crowded places take liberties with me and I let them know where to get off. Sometimes its a boss or a male co-worker who’s hand just happen to bump your breasts or you butt. Those guys get “the look” that says try that one more time if you want a foot up your ass.

      I just don’t see women the way many here see women. That’s not to say I think all women are as aggressive as I am; that is to say very aggressive, but I just don’t see us as shrinking Violets (no pun intended)

      “as if women could or should sacrifice their own jobs and careers in order to file claims that wouldn’t even be believed or taken seriously.)” um, many women have filed claims and laid their jobs and careers on the line. And many have won. Anucha Brown, anybody remember her?

      I seriously have a problem with taking the valid issues partiarchy , male privelege and gender bias and lumping them under a banner of “rape culture”

      • Joanie, I’m with you on this. I don’t like the concept of “rape culture”. It kind of paints men in a negative light. Most of the men I have met do not cross the line, no matter how motivated they are. Let’s give men a little credit for self-restraint.

      • Many women who file complaints of rape against co-workers or bosses ruin their careers.

        • How does that even *happen* anymore JeanLouise??? How do you get raped on the job? I mean, seriously? Are these women on an oil rig somewhere? I knew women back in the 70s who were propositioned and groped by male bosses and they reported it and the guy was punished. That was 35 years ago. Under what circumstances can men get away with rape? You can’t even say sexual words in my workplace without getting reprimanded. I think it’s completely silly since sexuality is part of our lives. It’s hard to believe we can just banish it from our workplaces.
          In fact, I’ll go one further. Some people here are quick to say, “don’t judge until you’ve walked a mile”. But I have worked with many women who pull the trigger on men at work for stuff that would never even phase me. The real harm towards women in the workplace these days does not come from the sexual harrassment angle. It comes from a subtle but destructive undermining of women’s authority and respect as a professional colleague. Feminists would be doing all of us a favor if they stopped chasing phantoms and concentrated their efforts on this other more damaging form of sexism.
          Rape in the workplace is very, very rare. In fact, I’ve been working since I was 17 in all sorts of jobs and I have never heard of one incident. And I was not always older. When I was younger, I was a tall, pretty redhead. If someone hit on me at work, it was because I initiated it.
          I’d have to hear the details of how these rapes occurred because I am really skeptical of these claims.

    • In 2006, Assange, using the pseudonym Harry Harrison, wrote on the OKCupid website: ”Passionate, and often pig headed activist intellectual seeks siren for love affair, children and occasional criminal conspiracy.” He also admitted to being ”87% slut”. It would appear that he is a man with adventurous tastes.

      Please take note, Mr. Julian Assange’s 87% self description.

      • Disgusting. I don’t know what else to say about his self description. At least he admits to being pig headed.

      • Sounds like 87% of the men I have ever known. Nobody’s perfect. At least he’s honest.
        You work with the material you’re given.

  35. Couple things to add after seeing comments…

    Isn’t a court of law the right place to decide if these women’s claims will meet the level of a charge of rape?

    I think it is possible that the women didn’t know what became of Assange but then saw his name splashed all over the media. Think Anita Hill deciding to come forward. It is also possible this is a set up. Who knows?

    This guy took a huge risk with wikileaks and may be facing politically motivated charges. But I think he is lucky what is happening is public and hopefully will include a fair trial.

    The authorities probably are using these charges to hold him while they build a different case against him. He should have been celibate and paid all his parking tickets if he was going to piss off half the governments in the world.

    • Both women knew exactly who he was and came forward promptly to make a police report. The were members of a socialist group that supports Assange.

      • I thought I’d read that somewhere that the charges were made right away. I didn’t know they were part of the group supporting him.

        • One of the women hosted him at her house for the Sweeden stay duration (including after the alleged rape- in her bed). the other met him at one of his speeches and helped by offering some equipment.
          the charges (of possible STD exposure) were filed days after the alleged incidents and only after the two women met, talked and realized they’ve been two-timed. Unlike others here, I actually did experience first hand real, forcible rape. it’s why, using this as a weapon for whatever other purposes is insulting to me.

      • Ah, but did they know he was 87% proof by his own estimation. The moral of the story is know the clown you’re sleeping with…what say you myiq2xu?

    • Honk, especially to the last sentence. 🙂

  36. The Assange love fest is interesting. Are all these comments individually motivated points of view…I assumed they were. Are there affiliated activist groups, blogs, parties represented here. If there are, maybe people could wear a badge or something on their avatar. Might make things more fun. 🙂

    • OR there are all shades of gray here and people are looking for definitive shades of black and white where none exist. We need to examine his actions separately.
      1.) Is leaking classified information always positive? No, I think Assange was careless. Heads of state can be extremely sensitive and petty. I think his actions were reckless.
      2.) Was there a better way of exposing the secret powers that run the world? Yes, first read everything that is leaked to you thoroughly, curate it and then decide strategically which pieces of information will have the greatest impact. I would have started with stuff that affect average people the most. That means that exposing the financial giants was probably more important. Julian made a crucial mistake here. I would have especially like to see evidence that traders can intercept trades before they happen. That would have had a huge impact on the value of 401Ks.
      3.) Is Julian Assange guilty of raping two women? Let’s just say that based on the evidence released so far, I remain unconvinced. Rape is a very serious allegation. It goes without saying that it shouldn’t be used for retaliatory purposes or to tarnish a person’s public image. That doesn’t mean I am supporting Assange, love him or would defend his right to do whatever the fuck he pleases. It’s just that not every interaction between the sexes is dictated by whether or not the male partner is in the mood to force his partner into doing something. Sometimes, it’s much more subtle than that and women who are protesting otherwise know better than that. You know when it’s rape and when it’s just very persuasive seduction. They are not the same thing. So, let’s not trivialize the real deal.

      • Progressive frat boys trivialize date rape. Progressive frat boys worship Assange. How this case gets handled is important because we seem to be living in an age of the new sexism. I’ve been mostly working abroad since 90s so I didn’t notice as much. But since settling back, the change in male attitudes here has been striking, at least to my eyes. It probably influenced the 2008 elections, but this is not about Hillary. She did not provoke this new sexism. Seems to go much deeper than that…still trying to figure out what or who is driving it. Makes me sick and angry when I see it, and these days that’s pretty much everyday.

  37. Assange as an albino? I don’t think so. Back when he did the Larry King interview his hair was much darker.

    • I have prematurely gray hair. Started getting it as an adolescent. Now it’s red. Or blonde. Or whatever color I want it to be. Gray/white hair is very versatile that way. But he doesn’t look like an albino to me. He just looks like an NC-15 in MAC foundations.

      • I suspect he’s been getting sartorial as well as couth coaching. He seems better able to handle the press these days and his appearance is part of it.

  38. Theodore Dalrymple:

    The actual effect of WikiLeaks is likely to be profound and precisely the opposite of what it supposedly sets out to achieve. Far from making for a more open world, it could make for a much more closed one. Secrecy, or rather the possibility of secrecy, is not the enemy but the precondition of frankness. WikiLeaks will sow distrust and fear, indeed paranoia; people will be increasingly unwilling to express themselves openly in case what they say is taken down by their interlocutor and used in evidence against them, not necessarily by the interlocutor himself. This could happen not in the official sphere alone, but also in the private sphere, which it works to destroy. An Iron Curtain could descend, not just on Eastern Europe, but over the whole world. A reign of assumed virtue would be imposed, in which people would say only what they do not think and think only what they do not say.

    The dissolution of the distinction between the private and public spheres was one of the great aims of totalitarianism. Opening and reading other people’s e-mails is not different in principle from opening and reading other people’s letters. In effect, WikiLeaks has assumed the role of censor to the world, a role that requires an astonishing moral grandiosity and arrogance to have assumed. Even if some evils are exposed by it, or some necessary truths aired, the end does not justify the means.

    http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon1202td.html
    I sort of hesitated to post this here, as the writer appears to be a conservative and also a bit of a xenophobe, and the rest of his views do not represent mine at all, but this one resonated with me.

    Publish footage of a helicopter shooting at journalists with cameras, sure, history of the Afghan war, okay, — although it seems Assange was less than truthful about not releasing names of civilians — but diplomatic cables that are part of an ongoing peace process? At what point has the wikileaks organization lost its edge and become just another bureaucracy intent on self-preservation at all costs?

  39. Was there a better way of exposing the secret powers that run the world? Yes, first read everything that is leaked to you thoroughly, curate it …

    A retired newspaper guy has been making the argument that if documents are dumped on newspapers, that makes it different…that the newspapers have the staff to vet the information.

    http://canehan.wordpress.com/2010/12/17/wikileaks-and-the-sabre-toothed-tigers/

  40. I definitely don’t find Julian somebody I’d share a drink or joke with, however, I think the use of the word “rape” here is entirely unjustified. I also don’t appreciate being categorized as a “rape apologist” by the author because I don’t want the word “rape” to become meaningless. Rape is combination of violence/threat of and non-consent, not a morning after regret of having slept with a douche bag. My opinions are based on this article.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1307137/Supporters-dismissed-rape-accusations-WikiLeaks-founder-Julian-Assange–women-involved-tell-different-story.html

    • S Brennan,

      That tabloid article you link to is from last summer. It says the details from the police report were blacked out. Why don’t you read the above article that has the details from the police report? This guy is not someone you want dating your sister.

    • There is no requirement for violence or the threat of violence to be an element of the crime of rape.

    • That article has pretty much been blown away the last few days with much more recent accounts. Perpetuating the DM’s dismissive and misleading (and largely sourced from Assange’s lawyers — like I said elsewhere, do I have to explain why people shouldn’t regard them as a credible source?) account (I mean seriously, The Daily Mail??) goes much further toward making the word “rape” meaningless than any of the people calling for some restraint do.

      Here’s some more recent links:

      The Guardian

      NYT

      And a whole spate of links, many of which deconstruct the misleading spin that originated with the Daily Mail.

      • Valhalla,

        The NYT has become a completely unreliable source when the Beltway wants it’s spin. Do I have to remind you of the run-up to the Iraq invasion? The NYT was the go to site for lies & spin…that is if you weren’t reading Josh Marshal in those days. The feminist site you sent me to is defending the women against attacks which is fine…but a speculative response to conjecture by the women’s internet accusers is not a concern of mine.

        I didn’t attack the women in question, but these facts have not been reputed in either account, both women met with him in the following days without any problems noted, they were the ones that got their names worldwide recognition by contacting Expressen Sweden’s “Enquirer” like Tabloid, Often times in legal affair both the defense and prosecution are known to change stories as the first accusations/defense become untenable…an updated story maybe better honed, but not “more reliable”.

        The Guardian just rehash’s the story with more updated speculation.

        “”Monica” told police, Miss A told her that she thought Assange had torn the condom on purpose.” This is hearsay of speculation. Saying you “think he tore the condom purposely” should be “at this point [time] I saw him rip the condom by doing [this], but again the report comes from somebody who has just had sex with a guy her friend has been sleeping with and so it goes. “Assange would not leave her flat and was sleeping in her bed, although she was not having sex with him”. So by her own words she said “no” and he complied, yes he’s an ass for not leaving, but she did invite him to stay at her place. I could be wrong, but i very much doubt Assange has a enough money to stay in Swedens Hotels without some donor stepping in. “Miss A then warned if Assange did not take a test, Miss W would go to the police.” so a friend who had sex with me said of a friend who I had sex with said “my friend said ” if you don’t do this, she’ll do that”…okay let’s do that one more time…if a friend who had sex with me said of a friend who I had sex with said…I’m sorry folks that’s something, but it ain’t RAPE.

        Julian may be an ass, but if their own words are being accurately reported, these women are no charmers either. Let’s continue:

        “Late that Friday afternoon, Harold told police, Assange agreed to take a test, but the clinics had closed for the weekend. Miss A phoned Harold to say that she and Miss W had been to the police, who had told them that they couldn’t simply tell Assange to take a test, that their statements must be passed to the prosecutor. That night, the story leaked to the Swedish newspaper Expressen. Julian’s lawyer says the police report indicates it was the women who went to the papers, if he is lying it is easily proven, the paper won’t refute that slanderous alegation and neither will the police, prosecutor, or women. WHY NOT? Because if the lawyer is not slandering the women, the women in question are first class jerks. Why won’t the media find out one way or the other? Why is Julian’s poor sexual performance front page news? My God folks, is the internet still inhabited by clueless naïf’s, could Josh Marshal, Kevin Drum, Ezra K, Matt Y & Jon Alter still sell you on invading Iraq all over again? Let’s continue:

        “The Guardian understands that the recent Swedish decision to apply for an international arrest warrant followed a decision by Assange to leave Sweden in late September’ and why the bleep shouldn’t he be able to leave Sweden if they hadn’t produced a warrant in a month and half’s time…Jesus folks, was Assange supposed to stay in Sweden forever. More?

        “a close colleague of Assange and who also knows both women, told the Guardian: “This is a normal police investigation. Let the police find out what actually happened. Of course, the enemies of WikiLeaks may try to use this, but it begins with the two women and Julian. It is not the CIA sending a woman in a short skirt.” Well there you are…an out of context quote from a tangental source lends his expert opinion…now pardon me for asking how did he become an expert on the CIA opperatives, Swedish Police and so forth? At the end of the story it makes clear that his lawyer has not been able to recieve copies of the police specific alegations. This complaint of a broken condom has had 2 trys and now the 3rd try is underway along with a US State Dept /Foggy Bottom PR shove

        uhmmm, I’m sorry this story from the Guardian adds nothing to what said in the earlier reporting. I did not see anything in the more recent story that made anybody look good, or made Julian a rapist, just a publicity jerk, who met two jerks who wanted publicity. As Ian said normal people don’t take risks like this, if you want perfect people to worship…be careful what you ask for, to many Obama was a perfect stranger, a vessel for the insipid naives to pour their hopes & dreams into.

  41. “Welcome back, my friends/To the show that never ends/We’re so glad you could attend/Come inside, come inside” :mrgreen:

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