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Hillary says proposed Koran burning is a “disgraceful act”

Decent people don’t need Hillary to tell them this.  From the Telegraph, Hillary Clinton commented on the planned burning of the Koran by a minister in Florida:

Clinton condemned the threat to burn the Quran during her remarks at a State Department dinner she hosted in observance of Iftar, the breaking of the daily fast during the Muslim holy month of Ramadan. “I am heartened by the clear, unequivocal condemnation of this disrespectful, disgraceful act that has come from American religious leaders of all faiths,” Clinton said.

This post is for all of our former friends who were Clintonistas in 2008 but somehow let their anger lead them in a different direction.

I know how pissed you were at the way your vote was taken away from you in 2008.  I know you feel disenfranchised by the one party you thought you could rely on.  You’ve been the invisible ones during this mother of all recessions.  You have lost your jobs or your family has.  You have seen government not working for you anymore where once it had.  You saw people come into office in 2008 promising change and then watched as they crumbled under the slightest wind of opposition.  They let you down, they’ve deprived you of a retirement free from worry and destitution.  They have been completely deaf to your pleas.

But don’t take it out on Muslim Americans.

The people who are channeling your rage towards Muslims are the very same people who are responsible for the mess you’re in now.  They are providing you with a distraction and an easy scapegoat.  They are pointing your rage towards destruction.  It is unproductive and won’t save your job, pay your mortgage or help you retire with dignity.  It simply takes your soul towards a dark place without the tempering spirits of civil behavior.

And men like Glenn Beck have been around for thousands of years.  They pop up whenever economic disasters lead to a power vacuum and a confused and leaderless people.  They talk about a return to “honor” and morality.  They proclaim “No to decadence and moral corruption!” and “Yes to decency and morality in family and state!”  Those last two quotes were from Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s propaganda minister, just before he consigned the works of Jewish authors to the flames at a massive book burning in 1933.

We all know better than to behave like this.  We were brought up better than this.  We’ve had our mouths washed out with soap for saying bigoted things when we were children.  That’s because our parents or grandparents saw the little indignities of segregation or the slow intensification of anger and hostility that lead to the holocaust agains the Jews in Nazi Germany.  And they wanted us to learn and become better people and “to not judge a book by its cover”.  I would hate to think that there are mothers and other members of our own family out there who taught us better who are now falling back into this backwards and ignorant behavior and are being taken in by false prophets like Beck.

Those Jews saw themselves as German citizens just as Muslim Americans see themselves as American citizens.  They expected the law to protect their rights, persons and property and instead, they saw ruthless, unscrupulous men take advantage of the despair and anger of a downtrodden nation.  Those men, those forerunners of Glenn Beck, unleashed that anger against their own fellow citizens.

In the aftermath of 9/11, we came together as a nation and for the most part did not give in to retribution against our Muslim American population.  Yes, there was a lot of hostility and anger and some innocent people were hurt.  But we held back because most of us knew that the attack on the World Trade Center was designed to undermine the legal barriers against our baser instincts.  It was an act of extremism, not an act of a foreign god.  Then we got to work rebuilding.

So, you should ask yourself why, after nearly 10 years, we are dredging up this old anger, refreshing it and placing the blame for a heinous act on innocent Muslim Americans who had nothing to do with it.  Does it really have anything to do with 9/11 or is it something much more sinister?  Is Glenn Beck’s call to restoring honor genuine or is it the tried and true formula of finding a scapegoat for people to beat up on while the bad guys continue to loot the country and cement their power in place?

Back then, a German citizen might have gleefully burned the books of Einstein and Freud thinking, “Oh, they are only Jews”

Today, do we follow in their footsteps and burn the Koran because it is only the Muslims?

If we do, then we have learned nothing from witch burning, segregation, the Holocaust or history in general.  We should be ashamed of ourselves.  It is disgraceful.

And for a nation that knows better, it is dangerous.  People like Beck are redefining decency.  He thinks you are weak and easily lead.  Beck is playing you for a fool.

Are you?

204 Responses

  1. Brava.

    The American Secretary of State is the highest ranking US official to criticise the plans by the evangelical Dove World Outreach Centre to destroy the Muslim holy book on its grounds on Saturday.

    Once again, Hillary steps up to lead when she is so desperately needed.

  2. Glenn Beck had Muslim Imams onstage at his rally, RD.

    Never ASSume anything unless you actually watched.

    I’d rather you go off on that narrow-minded Pentecostal preacher who sends Obama “Bible readings” on his blackberry every morning.

    • Maybe you should go watch some of the YouTube videos of Glenn Beck and the proposed mosque. I know what I’m seeing and It’s not pretty.
      I don’t assume anything. I just observe and report.

    • Glenn Beck will do and say anything to get an audience and feed his ego. He’s the the face to “A Face in the Crowd.”

    • Glenn Beck is a partisan hack.

      The idea that someone who said this without apologizing
      http://mediamatters.org/research/200505180008
      is preaching about morality of a nation is horrendous.

      • Clear Channel radio host Glenn Beck said he was “thinking about killing [filmmaker] Michael Moore” and pondered whether “I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it,” before concluding: “No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out — is this wrong?”

        It is pretty shocking and more shocking that some folks that went to the rally didn’t know what he advocates and there is never anything honorable about advocating killing or hating people.

    • Glenn Beck Fail
      (Some folks don’t know some of Glenn Beck’s moments on live TV and Radio have nothing Honorable about them. Listen to the violence he speaks of and the sexism and the plain OUT THERE non-sense he is advocating.)

    • Targeting Tides: The Dangers of Beck’s Campaign of Fear
      Williams planned mass murder on two Civil Rights orgs, while lying in wait, he was going to kill everyone in the ACLU and the Tides Foundation. Thankfully the highway patrol engaged him on his way to the offices the evening before, in a very dangerous shootout that lasted for nearly half an hour. What Glenn Beck is advocating is hate and violence and there isn’t anything honorable about that.

  3. No.

  4. But, but, they had their right to burn those books….

  5. Today, do we follow in their footsteps and burn the Koran because it is only the Muslims?

    If we do, then we have learned nothing from witch burning, segregation, the Holocaust or history in general. We should be ashamed of ourselves. It is disgraceful.

    And for a nation that knows better, it is dangerous. People like Beck are redefining decency. He thinks you are weak and easily lead. Beck is playing you for a fool.

    Are you?

    Well put RD.

    I’m afraid we have entered a time in our history that will stain our nation’s history with the brush strokes of shame!

    I never thought I would see the day!

  6. Spot on! I find the whole idea of book burning distasteful, downright reprehensible. For God’s sake, this is the United States of America. We don’t burn books in this country. How anyone in their right mind could condone this craziness is beyond me. And then, the even greater insult to say that this fury is somehow . . . Christian, patriotic?

    It’s nuts.

    As for Glenn Beck? In my mind he’s a classic charlatan, our own resident demogogue. He, like those that have come before him, take a kernel of truth, turn on the heat and stir the pot until tempers come to a full, angry boil. They appeal to our worst instincts, and then season the brew with fear and anxiety and the bang of drums.

    Hillary Clinton is correct, as are the religious leaders who have condemned the proposed event. This plan to deface and burn how many Qu’rans is absolutely disgraceful.

    It’s not who we are. It’s not who we ever want to become.

    • Actually, we have had book burnings here in the States – Margaret Sanger’s publications were burned in the 19th century (1870s I think), Steinbeck’s Grapes of Wrath was burned all over the country in 1935, Wilhelm Reich’s works were all burned in 1956 in NYC.

      Book burnings are for cowards who thrive on fear of independent thinkers.

      • In addition, Beatle albums and Dixie Chick CD’s were burned in the US. Not books, but same type of thing.

        As Khalil Gibran said when they started burning his books, “Time to issue a new edition.”

        djmm

      • There is really nothing new under the sun. However, hysteria will be generated by the demagogues on every side of any issue. The best way to handle outrageous acts like these are to condemn them in no uncertain terms and then ignore them. The more we talk about them, the more we help their cause.

      • Well, perhaps I should have said: we should “not” burn books in this country. :0)

        Color me crazy but this nonsense pushes against every principle we’re suppose to hold near and dear as Americans. And yes, “independent thinking.” That’s what we say we’re about.

        Sadly, what I see taking over is herd mentality. I find the very thought of this book burning event reprehensible.

        • The herd is 31 people in this instance.

          I’ve seen far more people against this type of behavior than for.

          Like Hillary I am heartened that so many in the religious community are united in calling the act horrendous.

          • It’s not simply the book burning. It’s this whole Beck movement. And that entails far more than 31 people.

            I’m glad Hillary Clinton spoke out against the “event,” and like you I am actually heartened that other religious leaders have condemned the proposed act.

            We shall see.

          • Beck didn’t call for anyone to burn the Qu’ran. He’s said many despicable things but that is not one of them Therefore ascribing this movement towards him is ridiculous.

      • How well I remember the Christian clubs burning the
        Catcher in the Rye………… in 1970’s we burned prono mags, and hey I even burned my bras.

  7. when 1st found out about the the guy that was going to burning the Korans the 1st thought i had was about the nazis book burnings.

  8. Beautiful post, RD.

    djmm

  9. Honk, honk!!! Great post!

  10. I am glad Hillary spoke out on the book burnings. I think we are all spiraling back to the wars of religions aided by many like beck.

    Even when we have issues about whats happening these lunitics get too much attention and gets out of control.

    Both sides of the msm are fueling these stories for the wrong reasons.

    Although as dario said he has the right to burn those books its just that he shouldn’t and the press needs to quit blowing these crazies’ actions into a national issue and now a world wide issue.

    • It’s craziness. Yesterday they pointed out there were anti US riots in Kabul. What they failed to mention is that prior to this there were many anti US riots in Kabul. Calling the burning of a Qu’ran by some guy and his 31 followers the cause of those riots is a stretch.

      Furthermore as I also pointed out in a link in 2009 US Soldiers burned a copy of the Qu’ran. Funny thing I don’t recall General Petraeus speaking out so eloquently about THEM putting themselves and others in harms way. I guess it must have slipped his mind.

    • I hate to be contrary here and I’m sure some people might misunderstand what I’m about to write, but as someone raised outside of religion, it’s easier to be a dispassionate observer.

      People are upset at the burning of the Qu’ran and are “suggesting they should not do it.” But isn’t that the same argument people used against building the community center in lower Manhattan? “It is their right but they shouldn’t do it,” because many thought it was an insult to victims’ families. Now we are saying someone shouldn’t burn a book because of the insult to Muslim-Americans.

      For myself, I don’t want to speak out of both sides of my mouth. While I don’t think the building of the community center is in any way equated to book burning or priests screaming hideous rants at gays/soldiers, or neo-nazis marching in parades, etc., I HAVE to support the freedom to do so.

      I think part of the blowback is also from the modern pastime of sneering at Christians and more established religions and the knee-jerk reaction to defend Muslims because they are seen as underdogs. Perhaps people are tired of being called idiots for their beliefs but expected to be passionate supporters of another faith. Hopefully we can come to a place where zealous fundamentalism is discouraged but overall tolerance and a less judging atmosphere will allow moderate, peaceful people of faith a little breathing room, with the caveat that they keep their religion to themselves and out of lawmaking.

      • It seems that way to me also. I just have a thing against book burning because it’s using your free speech to deny others’ their free speech. The real problem that I have is that this is getting press. It’s the press on it that will create the blowback. If these folks did it without any it attracting any attention. There would be no blowback.

        It’s a slightly different issue to me because burning books is a first amendment attack on a first amendment right. Whatever book it is makes no difference to me. But, I’m not going to suggest they not do it or stop doing it to be sensitive. I’m just going to condemn it as ignorance and would ask the press to not give them the attention they seek. It’s the same as the nutters that disturb mardi gras and southern decadence every year. They have the right to shout shit in public and look as stupid as they are.

        • Absolutely. I also wish our society wasn’t so scandal-driven that we gave airtime to the most virulent nutters. Letting them show themselves as the vile creatures they are I think only detracts from their cause and in the end that’s a good thing. And I retain the right to condemn their actions, because when I protect others’ rights to say stupid sh!t, I get to say sh!t back!!

      • They have the right to do it, absolutely, but as you said yourself, all of the analogies are to provocative, hate-filled behavior. Burning books is ugly, picketing military funerals with “God hates —-” signs is ugly. Building a community center with a theatre and pool isn’t in the same category, and neither is building a worship center (as evidenced by the fact that most of the people who don’t want the Islamic Center fully support the Greek Orthodox Church being rebuilt).

  11. I have this hanginf on the wall next to my desk as a reminder.

    When the Nazis came for the communists,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a communist.

    Then they locked up the social democrats,
    I remained silent;
    I was not a social democrat.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    I did not protest;
    I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for the Jews,
    I did not speak out;
    I was not a Jew.

    When they came for me,
    there was no one left to speak out for me.
    – M. Niemoellier

  12. This post is exceptional, RD – hopefully Bloomberg will see it.

  13. While even one is too many, I can’t believe there are too many Democratic 2008 primary voters in Beck’s corner. Most of those there are the third of Americans who are always, and will always, be on the Right.

    • I don’t know, tdraicer. I hope you’re right, but I’ve been reading many posts from former Clinton supporters, now quoting Glenn Beck verse and line [other sites, of course].

      I suspect many of Beck’s supporters haven’t done much research on where the man’s favored “historians” and self-proclaimed scholars come from–their backgrounds, their own personal histories and influences. People with ties to the John Birch Society don’t exactly impress me. Or fundamentalist preachers rewriting history to fit their own agenda. Or writers who simply make things up, and then need to come out with multiple retractions. I did some pecking around on my own. Beck’s so-called “experts” leave much to be desired. There’s also a site called “Liars for Jesus,” which is interesting. Someone on this site put me onto that.

      Rewriting history is a common trait of the charlatan. Even Beck knows that: he who controls the past, controls the present and future. And he would have his audience believe that the progressives have hijacked American history in some sort of diabolical plan to rob the Nation of its true heritage. So Teddy Roosevelt, Wilson, FDR, Hillary Clinton, John McCain, etc., etc., aren’t just wrong, they’re evil.

      I’m not sure how people buy into this. But we’re living in dangerous times.

      • Those other “pro-Clinton sites” had long since become flypaper for the vast rightwing and other more rightwing interests DURING 2008. They are GOP plants amongst them and some other stragglers who became so hardened against Obama that they went to the other extreme.The vast majority of Hillary supporters (many of whom DID end up voting Obama when it came down to Obama vs. McCain in 2008 mind you) are not Glenn Beck’s audience.

        I stopped by afrocity’s place not too long ago and she’s one of the Hillary “pumas” who actually is a conservative… and she doesn’t seem the type to be quoting Glenn Beck. In fact, she said his chalkboard gives her a headache or something to that extent.

  14. I wish people on the left would muster the energy they have to defend Muslims and direct it towards LGBT civil rights.

    The number of articles written about the stupid diversion of “cordoba house” and now this book burning makes me kind of angry when I read all sorts of left leaning publications tell me I need to be patient, the Dems have “a lot on their plate right now” when it comes to my civil-rights.
    I know the Confluence has been critical of that meme coming from the current Dem party, but where is this passion for Islam coming from? Remember, these people would have all the women on this blog cover themselves from head to toe, stone them if they commit adultery, and push me and my kind off of tall buildings.
    I realize there may be moderate Muslims, but even they don’t want me to have equal rights.

    I’m really sick of having to accommodate all of your made-up nutty religions. My biology should trump your fantasies.

    • I assume you feel the same way about Christians who do the same thing?

      This isn’t a defense of Islam. And, “these people would have all the women on this blog cover themselves from head to toe, etc.” isn’t applicable to all of Islam …

      That’s a stereotype pure and simple. Much the way right wing Christians stereotype gay people. You should feel an affinity for any oppressed minority in this country if you truly are about removing oppression. It shouldn’t just be based on your interests alone.

    • The passion- on my part- is towards the 1st amendment right to worship freely.

      You seem to be under the impression that people can’t multitask.

      Believe it or not I can be argue passionately on more than 1 issue.

  15. I take issue with the government making statements regarding the safety of troops as a reason for condemnation though.

    The troops are not props are tools to be utilized to wring compliance from a population.

    The government would be smart though to argue that the men and women in uniform give their lives to protect rights, including the right to worship freely. There are muslim men and women fighting to give that pastor his right to say despicable things about their belief set.

    • General Patreaus said it would endanger the troops there. I believe him on that front and I think that’s why Hillary spoke up. She believes him too and burning books is usually associated with fascism. People of good will should speak up on that.

      I think if I would go down to that church and hold bible burnings in front of it, my live would be endangered by these people. The worst of the true believers start wars over this kind of thing.

      They certainly can burn as many books as the want. It just shows what they are. I’m sure karma will out in the end. Bad actions generally tend to have multiplying bad results.

      • So you also believe that when he said that speaking out against the surge endangered the troops?

        It’s a slippery slope when you start using the troops as the means to control people’s dissent.

        At one time this was the man known as General Betray Us. Either you believe both of his arguments have validity and people should be quiet when troops are in the field or you believe that people in this country have a right to civic expression.

        There is a reason people in uniform are not supposed to speak up on political and civic expression in a uniform. Petraeus overstepped his bounds.

        • no, i believe that burning q’urans endanger the troops

        • It is quite possible to believe one thing a given person says while not believing something else the same person says. American dissent against the surge was not likely to anger large numbers of the people the US is supposedly assisting and protecting or to result in turning some of those people toward the Taliban. There is no logical correlation between Petraus’ two statements.

        • Not when you can substitute what was said almost word for word.

          As I said, this all boils down to whether or not you believe dissent should be allowed to occur while troops are out in the field.

          The argument can be used that anti war demonstrations are harmful to troops morale and well being(and it has been said). Do you really want to go down that road? The troops reasons for fighting is to preserve freedom. Not just freedom for people who you might agree with but freedom for everyone to express themselves. The right to assemble and voice disagreement with our government is integral. You can’t unring the bell once you decide that in order to preserve the lives of men and women fighting for our freedoms that you must give those very freedoms up.

  16. Why don’t the journalists and media stay away from this ignorant event and not give them the publicity they crave? All the high profile hand wringing just empowers this kind of behavior. Condemn it and move on.

    • ‘Cuz the whole point is to sell toothpaste or car insurance….so-called “news” programs exist to sell eyeballs to advertisers rather than to inform citizens who through their corrupt government has licensed them to fill the air with this garbage.

      And since for the past couple of years our politics have had a similar disconnect from reality, the average Joe and Jane probably watch the news, like everything else, simply for entertainment.

  17. I agree it’s disgraceful. And stupid. And bigoted.
    I also think it’s a bit hypocritical for people who stand for the right of flag burning (like I do) to get in a tizzy that this time it’s a religious symbol instead.(I don’t).

    • What’s even more hypocritical is these are the same people who called the guy General Betray Us when he argued that voicing dissent on the surge endangered the troops in the field and the mission.

      To me, this is about understanding you are not always going to agree with acts of civic expression but celebrating the fact that men and women have willingly given up their rights to allow you to do so. When i saw someone protesting while I was uniform it meant that I knew that I was doing my job and that my job had meaning even if I didn’t necessarily agree with the sentiment behind the action.

      • yup, i find it very hypocritical that they’re suddenly approaching General Petraeus differently now. But that’s typical of the political extremes, one minute you’re in, the next minute your out.

      • Absolutely. I saw this discussed in B0botland and it had came full circle. He was talking “sanity” now.

        • here’s a perfect example

          If they’re free to burn the Koran, we’re free to ask them why they hate the troops!

          C’mon! How many times have the wingnuts used that line against us?

          Now that General Petraeus has said that this Koran-burning will directly endanger U.S. troops, I’m all about using that to score some political points against the teabaggers and fundies!

          • It’s dangerous political oneupmanship.

            There were people in the thread suggesting that his actions were right because certain people in this country need to have an authoritarian in a uniform to tell them how to behave.

            Other ones crowing that they weren’t the ones who told members of the right to worship people in uniform and that it was appropriate to utilize this for compliance.

            The idea these people were okay with manipulating people using the military made me wonder if a military dictatorship might someday be in the cards for us.

    • Yeah, I kind of just yawn at the whole thing.

  18. I saw a clip of Hillary’s comments on tv this am. I think it was CNN. At least its getting some play.

    Good post RD.

    Is there more than one “Mary” who posts here?

  19. I see Christians and Muslims as my enemies for the most part. If they had their way, I would be in jail or dead. Christians are the main reason I don’t have equal rights in this country.

    It may be a stereotype that Muslims want to burka you, but the stereotype is mostly true. Look at Saudi Arabia, Iran, Quatar, Kuwait, Indonesia. I bet there are more Muslims who want you as a second-class citizen than there are Americans.

    How are Muslims opressed in this country? Their nuttyness is protected in the first amendment. Obama has no problem speaking eloquently about their rights, but remains silent about mine.

    Quran burning does not amount to opression.

    • I don’t want you in jail or dead.

      Speaking as a Christian.

      • Neither do I. Speaking as a Buddhist.

        • Neither do I. Speaking as an atheist.

          But I do understand your frustration. It’s terrible when (some) people use their religion as an excuse to hate and marginalize others.

      • You don’t really follow the bible then, but then most religious people pick and choose which rules they want to follow.

        • Seems you have been brainwashed about what the bible “says”.

          As a lesbian let me just say – you have come to the wrong place to take a dump.

          • Have I insulted anyone here? How is expressing myself taking a dump? Very attractive!

          • As another lesbian, I second Dee’s remarks.

            It is entirely possible to support more than a single cause at a time, including one’s own. The burqa, incidentally, is not worn in any of the M****m countries you mention, and in Kuwait, Indonesia and Iran women vote and can run for and hold public office. The same is true of Turkey, Syria, Lebanon, Egypt, and other North African and other middle eastern countries. It was even true in Iraq before we destroyed the country.

            And yes, there are Christians, M*****ms, J**s, Hindus and others who would happily see LGBT’s dead. But over half the country now supports equal marriage–there’s bound to be a a few tens of millons of religious people in that half of the population. The Episcopal Church ordains LGBT clergy, including two bishops; so does the United Church of Christ; so does the Metropolitan Community Church, founded by and for evangelical LGBT’s, and several of the mainline Protestant denominations are gradually easing into the idea of full and equal participation of LGBT’s in all aspects of their churches.

            Why shouldn’t Christians “pick and choose” what parts of the Bible they find credible and/or useful in determining their conduct or viewpoints? Are you under the impression that it’s either a consistent work or the product of one author?

        • same with the Muslims I know; including the gay/lesbian ones

        • Actually I follow the New Testament (the new covenant written during Christ’s life). I’m not a strict constructionist though. I’m of the mind a man wrote God’s words and men are completely fallible. Alot of the New and the Old Testament are contradictory ie An eye for an eye becomes turn the other cheek.

          My mom once told me I was going to Hell for suggesting if I took the Bible completely seriously then somewhere between the Old and New Testament God must have been placed on Prozac. Good thing I don’t believe in Hell.

          • Ditto to cwaltz here, too.

            ALL human understandings of the Deity will be MISunderstandings to one degree or another, though certainly some misunderstandings are harmless, while others are lethal.

      • Ditto to cwaltz.

    • I can’t help what Obama does, but I’m as outspoken about Gay rights as I am about the right to practice a religion–any religion. There’s a difference between supporting Civil Rights and Civil Liberties and defending nutty beliefs. I got hammered over the weekend for criticizing the religious yet again but here I am defending the right to do nutty things over here in this thread.

      The Qu’ran tells both men and women to dress moderately and that’s all. The Burka is a cultural thing. And the civil rights and civil liberties of people in other countries are nothing any of us can control. Through our courts, we can control what goes on here and if any infraction occurs, we have recourse.

      And if you think Muslims in this country aren’t oppressed, you need to get out more often. How about those imams that were arrested in the Minneapolis airport for ‘looking and acting’ suspicious? They just drug in two innocent Yemenis who were taking medicines and cell phones to relatives and put them on a watch list. Please. Tell me they don’t profile all Muslims in this country as potential terrorists.

      • There may be incidents of injustice towards people who are Muslim, but you cannot say Muslims are oppressed in this country, because there are no laws enshrining their inequality. If something unjust happens to a Muslim, the courts are there to rectify it.
        For gay people our inequality is baked into the law.
        There is no comparing the two.

        • You seem to think you’re all alone in being oppressed … it’s a long line. Don’t elbow the other people in the same line with the same problems and expect sympathy.

          • Again with the wait your turn BS. So typical.

          • Why is there a line? Where is the line?

          • I’m a woman. How many years did we wait to even get to vote in this country? We’re told to wait for every one else’s rights; including gay men! I can’t tell you how many lesbians backed off fighting for the ERA to go take care of gay men with aids. Women have been told to stop asking for rights to fight for the peace movements, black men’s civil rights, and gay men’s civil rights for as long as I can remember.

          • also, why the focus on perpetuating and gaining access to a religious institution–marriage–that enslaves women? Yeah, right, solidarity forever and bros before hos

          • I didn’t tell you to stop fighting. Why did you listen to them when they told you to stop? When you hear the dogs coming, keep going… or something like that.

            bros before hos

            is offensive by the way, but I guess you meant to be.

            keep saying the Maha prajna paramita heart sutra and it will all wash away.

          • Those evil gay men with aids, wanting to live and all.

            You have issues. Here’s a healing gatha

            No ma san man da moto na ocho na ki choto sha sono na to shi to shi gya gya ki un nun shia ra shia hara shia ra chisu sha chisu sha chisu ri chisu ri…

          • Besides, you are just making things up now. Deadline for ERA ratification was 1982. People had thrown the towel in on that one before AIDS was even called AIDS.

            by March 1981 at least eight cases of a more aggressive form of KS had occurred amongst young gay men in New York.

            This was the start of the epidemic.

            so I’m sure you can’t tell me how many lesbians backed off ERA to help gay men with AIDS, because you don’t know any.

          • That wasn’t me, btw, it was MAWM, I don’t think you hypocritical lunatics are worth the time of day. but dakinikat, that comment about men with AIDS just erased any doubt I had that you aren’t just a downright nasty, horrible person. Go to hell.

          • I’m sorry now that I let you both out of permanent ban hell. As an active member of NOW at the time, I saw the entire organization clear out to help gay men with aids. You couldn’t arrange a well attended meeting at the time and I was fighting to keep Reagan from restricting abortion rights and birth control access as well as working on the ERA. I multi-tasked and did both. But believe me, lesbians did a lionshare of the work of caregiving during the 1980s and got absolutely no credit for it and have never asked for any. But to some how suggest that no one else suffers more than gay men is intolerably selfish. So enjoy the moderation filter. I’m not letting you out again and I’ll undoubtedly be yelled at for letting MAWN out as much as I did. I’ve seen your emails to folks here … anger and hatred are your constant companions. Enjoy the spam filter.

          • Well said Dak. No yelling when you let them out to say your piece. They were wrong and over the line. When one oppressed group fights with another like this, only one group wins. Guess which one.

        • Try chod practice … it gets you to not be so focused on yourself and no one else.

      • Can you not see why I would hesitate to help someone who would stick a knife in my back?

        Have you ever heard the fable of the scorpion asking the frog for a ride across the river?

        • in buddhism it’s a monkey asking a crocodile for a ride, but yes … I’ve had my share of actual persecution from Christians, but I still stick up for their right to practice their beliefs and do whatever nutty things they want to do …

          • I’m not asking anyone to discriminate against Muslims. All I’m trying to say is next time there is a march for LGBT equality in DC, could some of you straight people remember the passion you had for some religion that doesn’t see you as equal and then decide to show up for a community that has been oppressed longer than Islam has even existed?

          • JD – your assumption that LGBT rights are not a passion of the vast majority of regulars and posters here at TC is completely unfounded.

            You have hit the wrong blog.

          • This is in reply to Dee. I know Confluence does do pieces on LGBT issues. It is just that every time there is some news about Muslims, “Cordoba house” the book burning, it seems the left-blogosphere lights up with a zeal that does not exist in the same way for us.

            I wonder why this is? Especially since Islam is so antithetical to Democratic principles.

          • Where were you on Saturday when I was defending Southern Decadence against Christian nutters? Didn’t see you dogging me then or supporting me then.

          • JD, we’re completely supportive of LGBT rights. It should go without saying. I’m pretty sure if you do a search you will see many more LGBT issues discussed than Muslim issues. There has been a lot of activity lately about these issues, so perhaps it might look a little lopsided in the last couple of weeks. But as Dak just mentioned, where were you Saturday?

        • JD, I hear your pain. My best friend and I wept when Prop 8 passed as we had been planning her wedding for 6 months. She asked, “How long am I supposed to wait to marry the person I love?” The answer is no one should have to wait, no one should be treated unequally. NO ONE.

          I am so sorry that Obigot was supported by so many who bought his marketing, including the gay community. I know with conviction that President Hillary Clinton would have signed an executive order for DADT post-haste and would have started working on DOMA lickety split. Look what she did at State.

          One of my big fantasies is that the gay super-donors will get together as a bloc and encourage her run in 2012. They have the power and the money to do it. Until then, we should fight for the rights of ALL people in this country. NOW.

        • My favorite fable is the chicken and the fox…..and the sky is falling.

      • Yes, but you never said you’d die for my rights as a lesbian or for our rights in general as women. Maybe I’m too fixated on that one thing. It really hit me. But in fact I don’t want you to die for anything and I wouldn’t think of asking you.

        • exactly … women’s rights are inextricably woven around rights for gay men and they can’t be separated. The reason gay men are oppressed is as much for the feminine side as anything

    • I totally understand what you mean. Yes, many Christians aren’t your enemies, but many are.

      IMHO “Christianity,” or at least the organized form of it, also has a great deal to do with why women in general don’t have rights. “Good Chrischuns” believe that women have their place and should remain in it. That philosophy can’t help but permeate into society.

      • And BTW, in case I wasn’t clear I’m with you. Organized religion in general is the enemy of gays and women. THE!! ENEMY!

        However, burning the Koran just inflames culture wars that we don’t need. We have enough problems already. It doesn’t help in any way to solve those problems. Thus, it’s wrong.

        • ITA.

          If anyone has a good reason to burn someone’s bible, it’s an atheist. Hey, it’s just paper to me. Ink on paper. But, then, I could just burn paper, or better yet a flag if I had one lying around.

          • In an interesting side note, when the Chinese are trying to humiliate and excoriate the Tibetans, they make them use scriptures as sandals and toilet paper. They also kill their pet dogs and eat them.

          • I may be a heathen, dakinikat, but I sure as hell ain’t no dog killer! 😀

            Seriously, I’d rather burn a flag than a bible, but as I said that’s because a bible is meaningless, and really uneven, drivel to me. The point I was trying to make is: Why on earth destroy something that is meaningless to you? Why would Christians destroy a Muslim bible? It makes absolutely no sense. At least not to me.

      • Define good Christian?

        I’m far from subservient in our household. When in the military, people were always commenting that I wore the pants because I’m a fairly aggressive female. I know what I want and what I am and am not willing to compromise on. I know many other female Christians who believe helpmate should not mean subservience.

        I guess there may be some women out there that are Christian that feel differently but I haven’t meet them.

        • Isn’t the whole notion of the “helpmate” role subservient? Or, at the very least, constrictive? Teresa is pointing out the patriarchal tenet that women are second to men and this idea is firmly held in many, if not most, Judeo-Christian religions. Most folks know who they are and what they want, yet remain unaware of the societal constructs that shaped them. And then there’s the complementarians who, I’m pretty sure, consider themselves high on the list of “good Christians.”

          • No, not really. My husband is my helpmate too. Does that make his role subservient?

            All helpmate means is that we complement each other. It means when I have difficulty with something I go to him first. He does likewise. we listen to each other and act as a sounding board. It means we rely on each other’s abilities. It means knowing each others strengths and weaknesses and acting as a back up.

            In our household I am far more aggressive and type A. My husband is the laid back one. I’m the planner. He’s the spontaneous one. A lot of people would assume “I wear the pants in the family” however, the truth is we share them.

          • I understand that you are interpreting the bible in your own way. But, historically, that is not how “helpmeet” has been used. And to this day we have self-described “good” Christians preaching that the “true” way is the way of female subservience. While it may be true that you have applied the idea of “helpmeet” in a different way within your family, it doesn’t mean that patriarchal religions have not had a negative effect on women’s issues, women’s rights and women’s lives throughout the ages and into the present day.

            When the patriarchal and constrictive tenets of Judeo-Christian religions are introduced into dialog and a liberal Christian takes exception, it is necessary to point out that their interpretation is not the dominant interpretation found in most Judeo-Christian religions. The dominant, and very vocal, interpretation is, as Teresa points out, the enemy of women and the LGBT community. I truly wish that these religions were more egalitarian and tolerant but they, quite simply, aren’t.

          • Historically there was slavery and bigotry too. Society changes and interpretations aren’t static. I don’t ever remember anyone in the New Testament telling men to oppress women and for women to allow it. I must have missed those passages or considered them of little import.

    • I don’t know, JD. Was it right to fire bomb black churches back in the 60s and kill innocent little girls? You know it wasn’t. Your fundamental decency tells you it’s not right.
      Is it right to threaten Muslim places of worship today? To harass people who wear hijab? By the way, hijab is not the same as a burka. I’m sure we font have the sane negative reaction towards the Amish or hassifim for practicing modesty in dress. But a burqa is a cultural manifestation. Nowhere in the Koran is it prescribed and as far as I know, very few American Muslims want to introduce it here.
      Bit getting back to oppression, just because you are part of an oppressed group doesn’t mean it’s ok to pass your frustration onto another group. Muslims are protected by the first amendment. But it’s up to all of us to make sure that people who violate the rights if others are held accountable for their actions. The law means nothing if it’s ok to violate it

      • What a straw man! When did I say it was right to do those things? If you would read my comments before writing a response you would also see that I never mentioned support for burning a Koran. I have observed that the left is very zealous in defending a religion whose expression is characterized by intolerance, yet the march for LGBT equality last year was undermined from the start by left organizations and atttendance was anemic at best.

        • Is that all you got?
          Ok, we’re not your enemy here. Beck and his buddies are.
          Go play on military highway, Gary.

          • So is JD actually Gary?

            no wonder…

          • it’s his partner MAWN

          • dak – Did you know it was Mawm from the get go?

          • yes, it came from his email

          • Nah, mawm was never this vicious. It’s gotta be Gary. If you do comparison against his email samples, you quickly notice similarities. The accusations of straw men arguments, the accusation that we don’t care about LGBT. But I think what really nailed it was his quick resort to the everything-but-the-kitchen-sink-it’s-all-personal argument. That’s Gary to a T.
            {{wave}}

          • But Mawm used to get all bent out of shape about people protesting “Southern Heritage” and the Confederate flag, so he cares about this wedge issue stuff.

      • and the hijab is a symbol of women’s inferior status in that religion no matter how you rationalize it.

        very few American Muslims want to introduce it here.

        Where do you get your statistics, because I see a lot of women wearing these things?

        It’s amazing that a so called feminist would argue for hijabs. Maybe its the fact that you grew up in a fundmentalist Jehovah’s Witness family that that it seems alright.

        • Muslim women wear hijabs outside their house, and Jewish men wear yarmulkes. I personally don’t like either, but I don’t see the need to make an issue.

          • Lot of Catholic women still wear those lace things on their head too even though I think (Catholics educate me here) that Vatican 2 relieved them of it.

        • A hijab is not a burqa. It’s a headscarf. Lots of women around here wear them. It looks perfectly normal to me. If I drive about 2 hours west, I can see women with black or white caps and wearing plain dresses and aprons. If I go 1 hour north, I can find orthodox Jewish women wearing wigs and pillbox hats and modest skirts while their husbands walk around in what looks like a spot suit with the hair at their temples in pin curls. So what? They are not wearing full length, head to toe, face covering, body smothering burqas. The burqa is a tribal, cultural thing and I would never want to see that here. Fortunately, I never have. I’ve seen women in full chador and niqab at an amusement park this summer in 100 degree heat and thought it was dangerous and stupid.
          I personally don’t care what people believe or what they practice on their own time. Where they cross the line is when they try to force it on me. And that goes for self righteous passholes who think they have a right to tell Muslims where they can worship. If you can do it to Muslims, no one is safe.
          Really, you should know better, Gary.

  20. the point is – we must be a nation of laws, not men.
    meaning, the law must apply equally to all otherwise, if some are above the law we could have a dictatorship. The same analogy applies to religions-none must have better or lesser treatment under the law.

    Good post and timely. In horrible economic times, the crazies really come out. It is even more imperative to get our economic house in order because in a bad economy people seek a scape goat. They look for someone to blame for their troubles, and usually they blame the vulnerable.

  21. When I first heard about the proposed burning, I instinctively said That’s wrong

    I do not practice any organized religion but I believe in a higher power.

    I didn’t think it was wrong because of the Muslim faith or Christians doing the burning – I thought it wrong as I would think it wrong if someone were to burn the bible or any other book look upon as “holy” by any group.

    How far we’ve stayed.

  22. I wonder how many of these yahoos actually know who Goebbels was.

  23. Hmmm, that’s a good question.

  24. Oy!

    I just got home and I decided to check Der Spiegel. Look what I found:

    Islamophobe’s Past in Germany: Terry Jones Accused of ‘Spiritual Abuse’ at Cologne Church

    US fundamentalist pastor Terry Jones, who wants to burn copies of the Koran on Sept. 11, ran a church in the western German city of Cologne until last year when members of the congregation expelled him. Former members have spoken of his hate-filled sermons and insistence on “blind obedience.”

  25. From the Daily Beast:

    In the 20 months since this administration began administering (a verb I use only in the loosest sense), the speech Wednesday morning by Hillary Clinton, delivered at the Council on Foreign Relations, was the first time we have been given an unreserved lift of the heart by any of its members. It was, by far, the best speech of this administration. Whereas her president has frequently wrung his elegant hands, doing the rounds of the world to reassure foreign leaders that America is a cuddly bunny at heart, the secretary of State declared Wednesday that we are all living “a new American moment—a moment when our global leadership is essential.” There was no bowing from her to potentates in robes; there was, instead, a promise that “we will do everything we can to exercise the traditions of American leadership at home and abroad.”

  26. It hink Hillary had the best response to this by suggesting the media avoid dredging it up. I understand that Patreaus had to say what he did, but it made it open season. Whay are networks interviewing this book burner? It’s all anger and circular logic. If every guy who burns a Koran gets air time, the stores will be sold out of them in a month.

  27. The Imam that is building the Cordoba project has an Op-Ed up in the NY Times that’s worth reading:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/08/opinion/08mosque.html?_r=1&partner=rss&emc=rss

    We are proceeding with the community center, Cordoba House. More important, we are doing so with the support of the downtown community, government at all levels and leaders from across the religious spectrum, who will be our partners. I am convinced that it is the right thing to do for many reasons.

    Above all, the project will amplify the multifaith approach that the Cordoba Initiative has deployed in concrete ways for years. Our name, Cordoba, was inspired by the city in Spain where Muslims, Christians and Jews co-existed in the Middle Ages during a period of great cultural enrichment created by Muslims. Our initiative is intended to cultivate understanding among all religions and cultures.

    Our broader mission — to strengthen relations between the Western and Muslim worlds and to help counter radical ideology — lies not in skirting the margins of issues that have polarized relations within the Muslim world and between non-Muslims and Muslims. It lies in confronting them as a joint multifaith, multinational effort.

    From the political conflicts between Israelis and Palestinians to the building of a community center in Lower Manhattan, Muslims and members of all faiths must work together if we are ever going to succeed in fostering understanding and peace.

    • Excellent. Oh dear, I hope I didn’t offend any other oppressed groups by liking that.

    • dak – I completely concur with your upstream observation about the redirection of focus from women’s issues to aids – particularly housing and care. All of my gay male friends that actually dealt with the epidemic from the beginning would agree.

      I wonder how many times those two waited for hospice or the coroner in the middle of the night?

      Their revised history is fascinating – and sad.

      Could I have your email address?

      • dakinikat@aol.com

        I remember driving friends to doctors appointments all the time because no cab drivers would pick them up. Feminists and lesbians were about the only ones that stepped in. Of course, it diverted attention from our issues. Like always, we sacrificed while Reagan declared every girl’s uterus public property. We did it. But to deny it didn’t take its toll on the women’s movement is definitely revisionism.

  28. where is the klown?

  29. your so full of shit dakinkat. If you want to lie to your groupies go ahead, but you’re not fooling anyone. I hope it makes you feel good. God knows with a narcissistic egomaniac like Kim around you could use some stroking. I imagine that’s why you take such pleasure in cramming your superficial, hypocritical bullshit down everyone’s throat. You can take your name calling and childish game playing and shove it up your fucking ass. That angry eough for ya? And it’s just a blog dear, you take it and yourself MUCH too seriously.

    • Note to TC readers: I let this through so you could see what we get to deal with the moderation filter.

      • Ay, you only hurt the ones you love I guess. Can’t figure where else this all comes from. I’m going for a walk. Just need to say I appreciate The Confluence big time every day. Gracias!

      • I thought these guys were long gone. Why do they come back? Oh, I know: It must be the intelligent blogging here.

        • I’m wondering the same thing. They made it clear ages ago that they think we’re anti-semitic hypocrites. So why are they even reading this blog? I don’t go back to dailykos and read Markos’ posts. In fact, I stopped reading his posts while I was still a regular there.

      • Remind me NEVER to start a blog. 😮

      • Holy crap! Damn, but it kills me the stuff women bloggers have to put up with just because they share their voices with the world.

        • Pish-tosh. They’re only little black pixels on a screen. They cannot hurt you. Once a woman blogger realizes this it’s an invitation to engage in a little fun. Take a deep breath, resin up the fingers and smile while you emasculate the bastard.

      • so SAD….

    • That is really uncalled for.

    • La la la la la la la la la la la la la!

    • Oo! Oo! I have his emails from the I/P fiasco. Classic!
      BTW, Gary, you’ll notice that this blog is still here and thriving. We’re almost at 10 MILLION hits. I’m betting that a couple million of those hits have been from you, amiright? Have you gotten over the threaded comments thing yet? I was worried there at your inability to adapt to change.
      Why don’t you go annoy some other LBGT friendly blog?
      And up your meds.

      • I missed the I/P fiasco, IIRC.

        I gather that was a good thing. 😮

        • A good thing that I missed it, I mean.

          Holy Haruhi, I wish this comment system included an “edit” feature. 😛

    • Gary, so let me get this straight. You hate this blog and you hate the posters and you hate the commenters. Fine, to each his own. So, why are you here exactly?

    • Gary, you need to strike a balance between frothing-at-the-mouth anger, and arch, superior, “It’s just a blog darling, you take yourself much too seriously.” For obvious reasons, those don’t really go together.

  30. I’m going to digress from most of your readers. I don’t agree with burning the Koran, but I am not going to blame Beck. Its the images of people in Iraq, Iran, Palestine and all the other Muslim countries burning our flag, and the Holy Bible that is setting in the hatred. Respect is usually given when it is reciprocated. And so is anger, hatred and resentment. This isn’t Beck’s fault or his responsibility, it falls right on the Muslims. With the anniversary of 9/11 coming up and all the fuss over the mosque in NY, its just coming to the forefront.

    • Beck’s a catalyst. I don’t know how much credit he should get for the fire and the match however.

    • Jdona, you are an AMERICAN. Set an example for the rest of the world. What they are doing in other countries is just as wrong. But do you really want to be like them? Show some pride, some strength.
      Lead, don’t follow. You’re bigger than this.
      And yes, Glenn is playing a dangerous game here. He is fanning hatred of Muslims for personal ambition. The guys who took down the wtc were not good Muslims. They were extremists with a perverted and warped understanding of the nature of god. Why condemn muslim Americans dpfor something a bunch of crazies did?
      Muslim American did not cause 9/11. Yemenis and Saudis did.
      It’s time to rebuild. Not bring it up and keep examining it when we need someone to kick around because we feel powerless.
      Restraint, tolerance and creation *is* power.

  31. THANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHANKYOUTHATNKYOUTHANKYOU!!!!

    I couldn’t have said it better RD.
    Your comment about our mothers teaching us not to say bigoted words reminds me of an incident from a few days ago. I was walking in the park with my friend and basically out of nowhere a twelve year old boy screamed “WHORE” at me when I walked by.
    I wasn’t even offended, I just wondered where he learned that it was okay to call people that. I wasn’t raised to have many manners and my family has a lot of racists, anti-semites, ect. but I don’t act like that.

    • Your mama raised you right, littleisis. My own daughter referred to one of her friends as a slut the other day.
      She was promptly and firmly corrected.

      • Good for you, but I imagine your daughter learns that stuff at school. Media saturates little girls with pimped out versions of themselves, and it shows in both public and private schools.

        I was too weird to go along with the crowd, which is why I had no friends, but at least now when I call a girlfriend a “b*tch” it’s a term of endearment. I might say, “I love that crazy b*tch!” Make this suggestion to Brooke. It will not only enable her to use popular dirty words, it also gets her a free pass from misogyny. *wink*

        • Yeah, I suspect she talks completely differently when she’s not around me.
          See, I swear like a sailor on this blog but I very rarely swear around her. Never have. My parents didn’t swear so I don’t do it either when I think she can hear me. It’s just kinda rude, IMHO. She deserves better.
          But I don’t approve of her calling other girls sluts. So I called her on it. She knows better.

        • My sister is marrying this total jackass, and, god, I despair for their kids. I hope they have boys, who only meet girls who were raised in loving, stable self-esteem filled homes, and who won’t hesitate to beat the living —- out of them when they behave like Neanderthals.

          • Yikes! Can you arrange an oxytocin withdrawal intervention? Coz that scenario doesn’t sound good.

  32. I think it sucks and is mean-spirited to do this. But then, most everyone thinks that. I have yet to see anyone come out in favor of the Koran-burning. Even Beck condemned it a couple of days ago, and Palin did today.

    Do they have the constitutional right to do it? Yep. Do the rest of us have the right to loudly tell them they are assholes if they do? Yep.

    • That’s the bottom line. It takes a lunatic to incite other lunatics.

      • Well, when even the far right is telling you you’re a hateful jerk, it’s pretty evident you are. You still have the legal right to be a hateful prick, but we also have the legal right to tell you so.

        And I’m not sure I agree that anything incited this guy other than his own hate. Much like I don’t believe Al Gore, or those legitimately concerned about overpopulation, incited that loony Discovery channel wacko. Wackos are wackos. The fact that they take something you said and run with it to a place you would abhor is their own fault.

    • If it weren’t for Beck crawling over this mosque thing for fun and profit, there might not even be a book burning. Anyone who pushes the xenophobic otherness smear for political gain is responsible for what follows.
      I’m glad to see that Sarah palin condemned it. Now, she really needs to get a better set of friends. Beck is a bad influence.

  33. (snark on)

    What? Palin did the right thing? You mean she’s NOT the Wicked Witch Of The (North)West who eats live kittens for breakfast? 😛

    (snark off)

    • *sigh* That was supposed to nest under RD’s 6:26 comment. *headdesk*

    • Well to be perfectly cynical, I think she may have stuck her politically gifted finger in the wind and decided not to go there.
      It was the right thing to do. But she still needs to dump Beck. He’s evil.

  34. I’m planning on reading this, at some point. We are in what is called in my trade a “double bind” right now, this book was aware of that.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clash_of_Civilizations

    In 1993, can you believe it? How prescient this theory seems for the times.

  35. Woah, lively discussion. Should we also condemn bible burnings. Mabye not, because they’re in the majority. How about the book of mormon. Really, don’t atheists figuratively burn religious books all the time with their visceral anti-faith diatribes. Is there such a big difference.

  36. http://www.salon.com/life/life_stories/index.html?story=/mwt/feature/2010/09/07/we_are_not_experts_on_park_51

    Great writing on Salon from a 9/11 widow.

    What did I think about the decision to construct a “mosque” this close to ground zero? I thought it was a no-brainer. Of course it should be built there. I sometimes wonder if those people fighting so passionately against Park51 can fathom the diversity of those who died at ground zero. Do we think no Muslims died in the towers? My husband, Eddie Torres, killed on his second day of work at Cantor Fitzgerald while I was pregnant with our first child, was a dark-skinned Latino, often mistaken for Pakistani, who came here illegally from Colombia. How did “9/11 victim” become sloppy shorthand for “white Christian”? I wish someone would put out a list of all the ethnicities and religions and countries and economic levels of the victims. For all the talk of “remembering 9/11,” I wonder if we’ve missed the patriotic message entirely. So, in short: No, I did not think it was “a bad idea.”

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