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Don’t blame Islam

Witnesses to the shootings in Fort Hood are reporting that Major Hasan, the shooter, shouted Allahu Akbar while he was shooting.  I don’t know whether this has been confirmed or not.  But even if it is true, there was only one shooter in Ft. Hood and no one’s God was on his side.  Dr. Hasan is a very troubled man.  His religion is not responsible for what he did.

I live in an area that has a fairly visible Muslim presence.  I work with Muslims.  I am not concerned that there is an impending Muslim jihad against Americans from within.  Islam is no more violent than any other religion.  Fundamentalism is our enemy and that can be found in Christianity as well as Islam. I am not going to condemn a religion or its followers because of the deranged actions of one their members and I caution others who I respect to refrain from doing so as well.  The last thing we need is a backlash to come down on the innocent heads of Muslim men, women and children.

Lover’s nationality is separate from all other religions,
The lover’s religion and nationality is the Beloved (God).

The lover’s cause is separate from all other causes
Love is the astrolabe of God’s mysteries.

-Sufi poet, Rumi

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157 Responses

  1. Thank goodness. Thank you, RD.

    • RD,
      Thank you, thank you,thank you!

      I have been sick to the stomach fearing a backlash ( which seems inevitable) .The actions of one sick individual should not be held against an entire religion 😦

    • There is an awful lot of venom on the web today concerning this man and his religion.

      Religion didn’t gun these poor innocents down…A sick man did.

      Thanks river for pointing that out!

  2. I agree. This isn’t about his being a muslim. Apparently the guy was horribly harrassed about his religion though. That might have been a factor, if he was already losing it. He apparently tried for years to get out of the service and they wouldn’t let him out. Maybe the government ought to start listening to people who tell them “I can’t take this anymore?”

    • Yep, some people aren’t cut out for the military. I just have to say though that as a military brat, I have a deep appreciation for what the military does and what kind of sacrifices are expected of its members. I am proud to have had a father who served for twenty years and a brother that currently serves now. For my family, it has been a positive experience.

      • My dad credits the army with his later success. He went back to school after WWII on the GI BIll and said his experiences in the Army were one his biggest motivations.

        • I credit the military with my success. I had a very difficult upbringing and the military did wonders for my esteem and actually allowed me to address some of my issues. Additionally my husband and I acquired skills that have helped us keep from slipping down the economic rungs too much. The VA is an incredible safety net to have and I appreciate that the American people gave it and the GI Bill to me.

    • Amen, sister. If he said that he could not take it, and offered to reimburse the government for his education, somebody missed the boat bigtime on this one.

      • When the military voluntarily lets a person go there is a six month gap to replace them on an “unexpectant loss” (they might have gotten his replacement sooner since he was a deployment billet). Sometimes the military even goes so far as to suggest that if you can do without for six months that maybe that billet isn’t needed. It complicates things. Further a medical professional doesn’t have the final say on a person’s readiness or fitness, that is left to the command’s discretion. In alot of cases that person has limited knowledge of the full picture.

    • Sorry BB – I look to you to be among the most level headed here but I have to call you on you viewpoint this time.

      This guy being “horribly harrassed for his religion” may be true to a degree, however, he is a Psychiatrist. He’s trained to recognize symptoms, not go shoot people.

      Same name, different circumstance, a white bible toting, chevy drivin’, Major Hassan just bombed an abortion clinic and killed 13 and wounded 26…..domestic terrorism.

      Either way it is cold blooded, calculated, premeditated murder and I hope he rots in hell… Allaha Akbar

  3. I blame Carrie Prejean

  4. Thanks RD, of course agree. Though I am not going to start feeling sorry for the guy anytime soon. Real victims are still fighting for their lives.

    • Who said we should feel sorry for the guy? He just murdered 13 people. He didn’t ask them if they wanted to be examples of some point he wanted to make. The guy’s an abomination.
      Still, it has nothing to do with Islam.

  5. Good point BB – Thanks RD – this puts things in perspective.

    The multiple tours in a combat zone is also creating unbelievable stress on our military. They’ve stepped up to do things most of us couldn’t – we need to treat them better.

  6. Question: Why would they want to keep someone in the service that no longer felt they could be of service?

    Shouldn’t they have expected he’d reach a breaking point or just go AWOL?

    • That’s what I keep wondering. Seems he was deeply disturbed for a long time.

      Thanks for the post RD.

    • The Army paid for his education including a medical degree. They probably felt he owed them something in return. You can’t just get out of your obligations by killing people. Maybe he just should have sucked it up like every other grunt and got on that plane to Afghanistan.
      War is a pretty fucking stupid waste of humanity. But there it is. Presumably, he knew that he might have to go off to war when he signed on the dotted line.

    • They paid for his education, so they felt he owed them. Now a lot of people are dead, injured, and suffering.

      • I’m sure he is not the only person in the Army who regrets taking the money and signing up. But that is the deal. There are a lot of options to serving your time without killing other people. For example, he might have just taken himself out. That would have spared families a lot of heartache. Or he could have consulted his own shrink. Or he might have told them he was gay. That usually does it for the Arab translators. The Army is not in the business of soothing your insecurities. The Army’s business is war. Everyday, they force thousands of young recruits who are scared shitless to go out there and kill people. Major Hasan can not be an exception.
        Can the Army do something about sensitivity training wrt Muslims? Yeah, I think they can. Should the Army revoke the DADT policy? Yes, they should. It it appropriate for the Army or Air Force to shove Christianity down anyone’s throat? No, this is unacceptable.
        But I’m sure the Army has faced soldiers more reluctant than Hasan before.

        • I understand that. But IMHO, it isn’t smart to keep sending back people with PSTD and worse to war zones. This guy had been dealing with soldiers with PTSD for many years. He had already had problems on the job that led to his transfer to Fort Hood. He wasn’t a good person to be counseling troubled soldiers. Just my opinion. I’m not defending what he did. I can’t believe you would think that.

          • My argument is that getting Hassan out of the Army when he was clearly burned out and was apparently posting odd stuff on the internet could have protected the people that he murdered. God only knows what effect he was having on the people he treated. I hate to even think of that.

          • No, I don’t think you are defending him at all. You sound like you are questioning the wisdom of the Army in keeping him on. And I just think that’s not the Army’s fault. They have to retain officers whenever they can. The question is, did the Army see this coming and is there anything they could have done about it. I think they might have been more proactive in Hasan’s case to ensure he wasn’t harrassed. But I dunno, BB. What kind of person takes out 13 people and seriously injures 31 pthers. It sounds like the guy doesn’t have feelings for anyone but himself. Remember the guy who shot Betty Jean’s daughter and then said he wanted to talk to his ex-wife and was pissed that the judge wouldn’t allow it? It’s like he didn’t see his victims as real people.
            Same with Hasan. Did he even know any of his victims? Probably not. He just randomly shot them like he was God. How is the Army supposed to see that coming? They might have thought he was just another Corporal Klinger. With a MD in psychiatry, he could have been raking in big bucks on the outside world just by prescribing Prozac to depressed housewives. The army might well have believed he was trying to cash in on the education they had paid for.

          • What kind of person does that? Either he’s a monster, or he was under so much pressure that he snapped. I obviously don’t know which one it was or if it was a combination. I don’t think it’s out of the question that working with soldiers with PTSD for years could have caused him to lose it.

            I’m never understood why people want to take others with them when they commit suicide. I just don’t get that. Just go somewhere and end it and don’t hurt anyone else. But lots of people do it.

        • It would seem this guy is experiencing a severe mental breakdown. The pressure on caregivers is often dismissed and overlooked. Just saying “suck it up” to someone who is skirting, or beyond, his breaking point obviously (this morning) doesn’t work. Can you ever conclusively sort the whiners from the truly suffering? I don’t know. But who was shrinking the shrink, is my question.

    • Why would they want to keep someone in the service that no longer felt they could be of service?

      I think it’s because the army is really desperate for manpower.
      I heard something on NPR this morning that the military has to reject 3/4 of new applicants because of either not having a high school diploma or has a felony record.

  7. Amen. More and more I understand the “fundamentalism is the danger” message.

    • Beyond the tragedy of lost lives and human hurt—the biggest loss I think will be the loss of military confidence and acceptance of mental health support. How many men and women in mental anguish in the army and other services will go to a military psychiatrist or mental health group in the future? In Iraq and Afghan we have seen a much greater acceptability of mental health help. You can probably forget that.

      I did not hear anything on Fox News this am confirming any of the speculation about him. Not that it is not so but they did have about a 5 min. info on him and did not mention the above and said they would not go with speculation on his motives until more was confirmed by the military.

      A psychiatrist they interviewed said that the big question is how was his mental state as a health care giver not known or monitored—usually such professionals have to do their own professional debriefing to ensure there own equilibrium.

      • There is actually a bit of a crux too. Because even if this guy sought help from another psychiatrist there is no guarantee that the recommendation would have been followed. Commands are given wide latitude to determine whether or not to follow doctor recommendations and it wouldn’t be unheard of for a unit to decide the mission outweighed the individual needs.

        There has been a whole lot of hokey stuff that has been done in regards to mental health. When you have Sergaents who have served 7 years being told they don’t qualify for VA care because they had a pre existing personality disorder that they were discharged for you have to wonder ……

        • That’s my point. We should be out of Iraq and Afghanistan. We don’t have the troops to fight both wars and still defend our own country. Imagine if we were attacked?

          • Our military infrastructure is being crushed by repeated committments with limited resources. It shows in the mental health of our troops and their families. Calling them heroes isn’t enough. We need to clearly define the mission and determine a timeline for completion that isn’t as open ended as it has been thus far.

            We only have the capabiltiy to wage a two front war. If we are attacked they would have no choice but to institute a draft.

          • Ah, but Rummy said “you go to war with the army you have” I would agree with that if we had been engaged in a war. But we started the war with Iraq – we could have gone into Afghanistan with our liimited forces to hunt down those who attacked on 9/11 but noooo – they decided to start a war with a country that wasn’t part of that attack. 😕

  8. Maybe I misunderstood something. Hasn’t his duty so far always been stateside? As a doctor, he would not have been in a unit that had to fight, he would have been working in a temporary hospital. He took the money to get the training and was supposed to help our soldiers. That was his job. Sometimes our jobs take us to places we do not want to go. Maybe the Army should have let him pay back the money and let him go but do not blame the Army for his actions.



    • It sounds like he consulted a lawyer to see if he could get out by paying back the money. But the Army wanted him to serve his term.
      The question is, what did Hasan have in common with Dylan Klebold and what might they have done to stop him? I don’t feel sorry for Hasan. He’s a psychiatrist for gawd’s sakes. Yeah, even shrinks can get crazy but he should have sought professional help before he went ballistic.
      It doesn’t matter in the end though. The Army didn’t pull the trigger. Hasan did. Only him and no one else.

  9. My son-in-law has been injured so many times in Iraq that on his last return stateside, the VA said he should not be sent back and should be given a medical discharge. He did his time in the National Guard waiting for it to happen. Meanwhile, the military kept pressing him to return with his “band of brothers” because “they needed him.” He nearly gave in, but my daughter made it clear to him that she opposed the decision and why. He resisted and is now discharged. But he feels guilt and sorrow about the decision anyway – even while he is being treated for his many medical conditions.

    The army today is not your father’s army; they are so much better at manipulating and brainwashing. It is not easy for a young man to withstand that treatment and then feel “right” abandoning his team. No reason to feel that a 40 year old would do much better.

    I don’t condone his actions and I don’t know anything about his motives, but if you teach a man to kill anyone and everything that stands in your way “over there” you have to expect that some will snap and do it here too.

    Good post, thank you for not falling for the anti-muslim rant which is spreading faster than the swine-flu.

    FYI, I am not a muslim.

    • So sorry to hear about your son in law. He has nothing to feel bad about.
      My brother is full time now. Hasn’t been deployed. Don’t know how he manages to stay out of the warzones. They keep threatening to send him and he always manages to get a job that keeps him stateside. Weird.

    • Please thank your son-in law for his service. I wish him well . He has done his part and i hope what ever life takes him it is a good place.



  10. I don’t give a damn about Nidal Malik Hasan. he is not a great American. he is not a victim. I care about the real victims. I thank the woman that brought him down.

  11. NEW YORK – Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the alleged shooter in yesterday’s massacre at Fort Hood, played a homeland security advisory role in President Barack Obama’s transition into the White House , according to a key university policy institute document.

    • The truth is stranger than fiction.
      Manoman, the shit’s going to hit the fan now.

      • Oh. My. God.

        • Hold on. Media Matters say it isn’t true.

          WorldNetDaily falsely claimed that alleged Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan “advised Obama transition” in the headline of an article by Jerome Corsi highlighting his listing as a “participant” in a report for the Homeland Security Policy Institute (HSPI) at George Washington University’s Presidential Transition Task Force. However, Corsi himself acknowledges that there is no evidence that “the group played any formal role in the official Obama transition” — indeed, the Task Force was initiated in April 2008. Moreover, while Hasan was listed as one of approximately 300 “Task Force Event Participants” in the report’s appendix, HSPI has reportedly said he was not a “member” of the Task Force, and was listed because he RSVP’d for several of the group’s open events.

    • Check your source – if it is World Net Daily it is not reliable:

      WorldNetDaily falsely claimed that alleged Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan “advised Obama transition” in the headline of an article by Jerome Corsi highlighting his listing as a “participant” in a report for the Homeland Security Policy Institute (HSPI) at George Washington University’s Presidential Transition Task Force. However, Corsi himself acknowledges that there is no evidence that “the group played any formal role in the official Obama transition” — indeed, the Task Force was initiated in April 2008. Moreover, while Hasan was listed as one of approximately 300 “Task Force Event Participants” in the report’s appendix, HSPI has reportedly said he was not a “member” of the Task Force, and was listed because he RSVP’d for several of the group’s open events.

  12. Afrocity, go wash your hog:
    WND falsely claimed alleged Fort Hood shooter “advised Obama transition”
    48 minutes ago — 14 Comments
    WorldNetDaily falsely claimed that alleged Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan “advised Obama transition” in the headline of an article by Jerome Corsi highlighting his listing as a “participant” in a report for the Homeland Security Policy Institute (HSPI) at George Washington University’s Presidential Transition Task Force. However, Corsi himself acknowledges that there is no evidence that “the group played any formal role in the official Obama transition” — indeed, the Task Force was initiated in April 2008. Moreover, while Hasan was listed as one of approximately 300 “Task Force Event Participants” in the report’s appendix, HSPI has reportedly said he was not a “member” of the Task Force, and was listed because he RSVP’d for several of the group’s open events.

  13. Instead of condemning anyone (I really don’t know the state of this man but if there was mental instability then and there was a culture that allowed this man to be humiliated because of his beliefs then I do have to put some of this on the Army for not doing a better job policing and screening)I’d prefer to take the time to laud the two young women who kept their heads. One of them was the civilian officer responsible for bringing the gunman down and the other was a Army nutritionist who rendered aid despite her own gunshot wounds.

    • Good points.

    • Is it me or is the Media disappearing Officer Munley and writing her out of the scenario?
      Now if it was Officer Manly, he’d be the whole story.
      But, as Susan Faludi points out in “The Terror Dream” ever since 9/11, women are portrayed as victims and only men get to be the fearless heroes.

  14. And her name is Kimberly Munley. Go chew on that.

    • Saved by some smelly girls. Maybe we’ll start to get some respect. Oh, I can hear it now from the guys, “She didn’t do anything special. It was just a flesh wound. He was out of ammunition anyway.”
      you know it’s coming.

      • The way things have been going, it will probably come from Vastleft.

      • Reports are saying he’s on a ventilator. I suspect the civilian force teaches that if you aim a gun that you go center mass just like the military does. It definitely isn’t a mere flesh wound.

        • No, I mean the flesh wound was on HER, he shot her once. She shot him 4 times. Can’t you just hear the guys saying her wound isn’t serious? She shot him accidentally as she fell to the floor. Four times. Thus stopping him from doing any more damage.
          It won’t be enough. You and I both know it.
          BTW, there are now reports of another mass shooting. This time in Orlando.

          • Oh no. It appears that the country is floudering under all the stress. You have people killing themselves, killing their families, killing thier co workers….. It’s insanity.

      • Her superior officer said she walked right in and confronted him, called her actions incredibly assertive.

    • That was the civilian officers name. The young nutritionist’s name is Amber Bahr. These young women are proof that women are more than competent when it comes to keeping your head while under gunfire.

      • A pair of heros IMHO. Women always seem to be better at keeping their head in emergencies. Or maybe I just know weak men 😉

  15. I remember my father once telling me that during WWII, American soldiers of German and Italian descent were not sent to those respective theaters.

    • One of my husband’s Italian uncles got harassed by the FBI during WWII. It ended quickly when they found out that he was FDR’s personal pilot, and the president was calling wanting to know where the hell his plane was! Oops.

      The other brother served in WWII as well – I know in Europe, but not sure if they actually sent him into Italy or not.

  16. This person who did the killing was very sick. It is doubly sad that he was a psychiatrist and a soldier.

    I don’t blame his religion, but where are the voices of Muslims who want to live in peace? I honestly cannot recall cries for temperance by Muslims to other Muslims, but only remember hearing the words of others asking to not condemn all Muslims.

    • Muslim-American groups have already condemned this murderer, along with other muslim terrorist. Get a clue.

      • I am “clued.” I made an honest statement. I do not believe there is a concerted effort by the Muslim community to combat the message being propagated by extremists.

        • Sure there is – but wild-eyed fanatics screaming “Death to America” is more dramatic and gets higher ratings.

        • OK. How about providing some details and evidence then? I assume you are talking about the Muslim-American community? Many of the them have fought in these wars on our side, you know.

        • Have you read the statement from his cousin? Heartbreaking. It’s really sad when you have to repeat over and over that you are an American and you love your country. I feel for his cousin’s family.

          • I believe that what I have been trying to say has been misconstrued. I don’t consider myself to be exceptionally informed, just average. This thread started by addressing the aspect of these killings associated with religion. From my perspective, this is the only time that there is any awareness of the moderates in Islam, when they feel compelled to defend themselves. I do not believe it is enough to just be visible at these times. It is going to take a tremendous effort to combat the force of hate and intolerance that springs up so forcefully form the epicenter of this problem- Saudi Arabia, Iran, etc. I have not seen that happen.

            I want to repeat that I am not condemning anyone’s religion and do not believe I did so in my comments. I am pointing out what I believe is a systemic problem facing the Islamic community. If people want to demean me for saying that as being clueless and ill read, then so be it.

          • escee,

            Do you feel the Christian/prolife community ought to be doing likewise for the death of Dr Tiller(by the way ebay shut down some auctions meant to go toward a defense fund for his actions)? As RD pointed out above it’s kind of sad that there is such a double standard because there are plenty of non Muslims guilty of taking American lives. I don’t hear them being told to hop up on a podium and decry the actions of their fellow citizens.

    • There were a whole bunch of them that condemned his actions following the report of this tragedy. I forget the name of the group but do remeber it specifically mentioned the muslim religion in the name. They even went further to laud the military as heroes who everyday put their lives on the line to protect this country.

      • IIRC there are some 1 billion Muslims in the world today. If they were all such devout murderers of infidels, they’d be the only billion.

  17. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/politics/sns-ap-us-fort-hood-shooting-suspect,0,7548702.story

    This article seems to say that there were warning signs and an investigation was just starting into this man.



    • Sad,

      I’m sure this whole entire situation is very complex. One thing I learned while a corpsman in the military is that they don’t always see things in the same manner as their civilian counterparts. The mission always comes first and sometimes it is to the detriment of soldiers. It is probable that the fact he went to a lawyer to attempt to be released from service might have made them leary of believing his mental distress.

      I find the whole situation sad all around. Such a waste.

  18. I have to confess that my mind jumped to a generalization that I have based on a few practitioners that I’ve met. When I heard the killer was a psychiatrist, I wasn’t shocked. The ones I’ve met more than once “socially” (if one can call it that) were kind of scary to me. Of course, I don’t blame all psychiatrists for any thing–I just go out of my way to avoid them.

    • I’m sure they are like any other group of individuals. Mentally sound and unmentally sound dispersed among the lot. Anecdotally, I have gotten along with the mental health professionals I’ve run into and find them helpful when you need an uninterested third party to help you sort things out. I’m sure in a social setting it might be difficult to turn “off” the desire to probe the mental psyche though.

      • I have gotten along with them, too, but the three psychiatrists I’ve known socially are not close to “normal” (compared with non-psychiatrist M.D.s or PhD’s I’ve unknown). They were observers rather than participants, and one had a most disturbing mother. Had one of them gone bonkers, it wouldn’t have surprised me. They seemed to be smoldering.

        As for mental health professionals, that covers a lot more than just psychiatrists. I probably just have met the exceptions, all of the rest have beautiful minds.

  19. Great post, rd.

    CNN reporting 8 shot in high rise in Orlando. Shooter still loose. I-4 shut down.


  20. Thank you riverdaughter for this thread. It’s right on.

  21. cwaltz,

    “Do you feel the Christian/prolife community ought to be doing likewise for the death of Dr Tiller”

    Of course, I do. This thread was about Islam though.

    There is no passion for tolerance.

    • I’m the opposite. I’m a Christian and I see absolutely no reason I should have to defend my faith or decry the behavior of someone of my faith that isn’t myself.

      There are people in the world of all stripes that have done bad things and their behavior is not always necessarily a reflection of everyone that shares one or more similar traits with them.

      I think it would be absurd for me to try and pretend that I understand the man who shot Dr Tiller or his machinations in entirety simply because we share a Christian faith(although he seems a little hazy on the thou shalt not kill thing imo).

      • Well stated. Don’t think it will make an impact on the intended audience, but kuddos for trying.

  22. Great points RD. And even if as some stories of FBI monitoring are true that he was a suicide bombing supporter and the like, that’s about him, not about any religion in particular. We have crazies in every religion and non religion.

    Now this new shooting. Yikes. Very sadly I expect more of this given the pressures of the war and the economy and the general state of affairs with wall street getting special treatment and getting richer. These sorts of environments aren’t conducive to rainbows and kittens.

    Sending positive thoughts out to all the stressed, disgruntled, and a bit off in the head. Yes, even you Glenn Beck, you crazy nut job. Everyone keep a calm head.

  23. You know I want to apologize first for somethings I said on the other thread, or rather how they came across. I don’t blame Islam. I blame this man for what he did. His actions are in excusable and I’m sure many Muslims disapprove. In fact, we don’t know if his motive is remotely related to his religion at this point.

    Having said that; there is something very very disturbing about the patterns. We hear for too often about honor killings, about women being stoned for adultery, about suicide bombers, about hijackings, about Sharia law, etc., to just brush past the single unifying thread which is the Islamic religion.

    • When a country is at war with another country, all too often each hears negative tales about the other, and these tend to form a pattern.

      Don’t let me start on all the negative stories flying around the world about the USA.

    • respectifully, have you read the latest rape and murswe

      • whoops my computer and my fingers didn’t connect. I’ll try again.
        Respectfuly, have you read the latest rape and murder statistics in the U.S.? Are they not as horrific?

    • We have honor killings in the Americas and Europe, too, bc–but we call them “crimes of passion.” Until fairly recently, the state of Texas specifically permitted honor killings. A husband was considered guiltless and legally justified if he killed his wife and her lover in flagrante. No such privilige, of course, for a wife walking in on hubby and his floozy.

  24. Any astrologers out there to clue us in to what Mars is doing?

  25. It could well have been a case of (attempted) “suicide by cop”.

  26. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/national/main5549388.shtml

    A good article on a gutsy lady. She saved lives and did her job.



  27. http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/06/national/main5549668.shtml?tag=contentMain;contentBody

    This sounds like he planned his actions in advance. He did have time to get help and chose not to do so.



  28. The wahabi strain of islam of the middle east is different from the sufi strain of islam of rumi. Sufi islam has been influenced a lot by eastern mysticism. Sufiism has no place where the violent strains of islam are being practiced like in middle east (Saudi ) and in Africa like Somalia and Nigeria. Thus quoting Rumi to explain actions of violent jihadists is irrelevant. May as well quote Macbeth.

  29. All religions have had some stupidity and have undergone reform from time to time. Islam has not undergone any such reform. Thus the totalitarian, violent strains in islam continue unabated. There is also a correlation between the way women are treated in a society and the violent turmoil in that society.
    Not to acknowledge that islam is in need of reform is to do disservice to the millions of young muslims girls that die every year of honor killing, the many young girls whose voices are silenced and lives brutalized.

    • Sufism is a mystical, enlightened sect of Islam. You can argue that it doesn’t resemble wahabism but you can’t say it isn’t Islam. BTW, I know Muslims and your characterization of them does not fit any of the ones I know.
      On the other hand, I grew up with q mother who attended a fundamentalist Christian church that shunned women who had sex outside of marriage. Yep, in their hour of need, their comminity and family members cut them off and sujected them to shaming. This church approved of beating kids that didn’t pay attention during services. You could hear children.as young as three wailing during their beatings while an elder was quoting scripture from the bible. There are fundamentalist churches that advocate biblical punishment of Fallen women and gay men. Heck, the fundamentalist Mormons practice rape on girl children and call it a spiritual marriage.
      And we haven’t even talked about the crusades, the inquisition, the albegensians or the siege of anabaptist munster. A long time ago, you say? What about Northern Ireland? That wasn’t long ago.
      A lot of violence has been committed in the name of religion. And not just the Muslim religion.
      Grow up.

      • Sufis would be killed in Saudi for their practices. So much for its enlightening prowess. Rumi himself had to time and again state that he follows Quran and Mohammad to fight the heretic label. But you are trying the excuse the jihadist action with a Rumi quote which is nonsense.
        Did I say there is no fundamental strain in other religions? In fact I have said all religions have some stupid elements and have been reformed from time to time. (I don’t consider fundamental mormonism a religion . Simply another stupid cult ). (And when the next person starts killing people shouting “Buddha is great” I will question Buddhism as well)
        You need to grow up and acknowledge that fundamental interpretations are what are followed in countries like Saudi, Somalia, Nigeria, Iran. Here the law promotes practices such as stoning of adulterers, killing of apostates to name a few. Dying and killing for the cause of islam in these societies is considered martyrdom.

        • And you forget that the biggest Muslim Populations in the world are Indonesia and Malaysia.

          • Which are rapidly becoming more fundamentalist with the spread of Wahabi teaching and wealth. BTW, these Islamists are discriminating against and increasingly killing Christians and Hindus.

    • Millions? Really? Millions? How the hell do they keep up the birth rate if they off “millions” of women of childbearing age every year?

      Documentation, please.

      • Boo hoo! So my sentence structure was wrong. Here let me put it so you can understand
        millions = (number of women that die every year of honor killing + the many young girls whose voices are silenced and lives brutalized.)
        Happy now?

        • UM, your sentence structure had nothing to do with the false assertion you made. Your sentence structure was actually just fine. Trying to wriggle out of your absurd claim on the basis of bad syntax is not only dishonest but cowardly.

          Grow up, sweetie.

          Learn to count somewhere along the way.

          • Whatever!
            At least you did not try to claim that there are no honor killings at all. That is good for starters

    • UM, where are those statistics? Since you’ve gone belatedly silent, let me help you out.

      According to Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, honor killings world-wide come to approximately 5000 each year. That’s 5000 too many, and it probably doesn’t even include the Western version (crimes of passion) but it’s not “millions.”

      Most people would say that 5000’s bad enough. You have to wonder at the mindset that finds it necessary to jack up the propaganda to such absurd levels as “millions of young muslim girls a year.” But it does help to keep the hate going, doesn’t it?

      Hillary on the real abuses against women:


      • I pushed the button on the ejection seat

        • Thanks. I’ll be kind and not wish it parachute failure.

          I’m pretty sure this is the same person that’s made the same “millions” claim on another blog with an obligatory 22-hour daily Muslim-hate, so I don’t buy the attempt to weasel out.

          • Don’t thank me prematurely, I opened the door back up again. I get tired of the my religion does good and nothing but good while every one else’s has issues arguments that go on … it’s all superstition to me any way and they all look alike to me, but it drives me nuts. See our good works and words (which means avoid the history books, the science books, and everything else other than the heavenly propaganda)

  30. I do apologize but being someone who has been single out in life for who I am and what I believe. I am going to say this Muslim, Islamic faith has one simple rule if you do not believe like they do, then you are the infidel and must be destroyed. “Not” all Muslims are not bad is like saying dancing with a Cobra is not dangerous. I still remember the school in the middle east that caught on fire, they barred the doors so no female students with out proper Muslim attire could escape. This is the Islamic & Muslim, no different that the Christian inquisition of the middle ages, give me a few hundred years to see if they get civilized before I agree with you ( organized Christianity still has it’s problems ). Most Muslim country’s still hang people for homosexuality, where woman can be stoned to death for being raped. Can we say keep one eye open and another even wider…
    Brightest of Blessing Je’Amour

    • Well, Ms. Matthews, I don’t believe Islam is a blodthirsty religion and those sentiments are not welcome here.

      • and in addition, she doesn’t speak French, ergo, she ain’t what she is trying to be/

      • Riverdaughter, I used to think like you about Islam even after 9/11. But reading the core texts and Muslim forums was an eyeopener. UM is absolutely correct — Islam is a totalitarian, supremacist, misogynist violent religion.

        • Oh? And the Bible isn’t totalitarian, supremacist, mysogynistic and violent? As Julia Sweeny once said, “Have you READ what is in that book?!?” The Old Testament is filled with hair curling examples of violence and misogynism.

          • Of course, control and dominance is not possible under all that love, peace, and equality stuff. That’s for hippies and stoners.

  31. I can’t believe that some people on this thread really believe that Christianity became all love and sweetness after the Inquisition. Let me think – Christians destroyed the Native peoples of Hawaii, the Native peoples of the Americas, had no problem enslaving, killing, beating Natives of Africa, colonized most of South America with brutality and casual indifference – all after the Inquisition. Abuse by Christians of children, gays, non=religious, and other sects is a historical fact that some want desperately to ignore. The historical Jesus was probably the only true Christian to ever walk the planet.

  32. Are you joking? The Crusades? The Inquisition?

    • Um, that was supposed to nest with something that isn’t here anymore, (the question being, when did Christianity lead to violence). Disregard.

      • how about burning crosses? burning witches? slavery justified by bible verses?

        • not to mention pedophiliac priests allowed to do whatever they want to systematically

          • Colonization as catsden points out–when you have any religion whose followers believe they own The Truth and need to proselytize nonbelievers to “save” them, bad things happen.

          • i know folks in third worlds that are told the only way the get medicine, refrigeration, schooling or whatever is to convert … otherwise they don’t get it …

            I work with Tsurpas in Nepal. I know one woman who had to leave a catholic hospital with an open surgical wound because they wouldn’t continue operating on her unless she converted to catholicism from buddhism. I know another family that was promised a refrigerator as long as they went to a baptist church every sunday for a year… yup, quite the honorable mission there … give people medicine only if they convert … and that’s within the last 3 years too

          • Nothing will drive me from this blog, but my patience is sure tested by the one that knows all. Goodnight.

          • h, I’m not trying to drive you out but when you come back at me with what is obvious provocation I’m not going sit and take it either … I’m happy you’re happy with your choice but it’s not mine and I don’t see things the way you see them … we can both be smug in our choices without smoting the other …

  33. Just answer my question –
    Show me one saying or action of CHRIST that justifies any kind of violence.

    Inquisitions and other stuff happening is no justification for honor killings and other murders. That is a logical fallacy.

    Jewish texts too uphold stoning for adultery. How many adulterers are stoned in Israel today?

    The point that I am trying to make is that there is a need for reform.

    • Luke 12:49-53

      I have come to set fire to the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until the ordeal is over! Do you suppose I came to establish peace on earth? No indeed, I have come to bring division. For from now on, five members of a family will be divided, three against two and two against three; father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother…

      • Christ is instigating violence against whom here? And by whom? Can you tell?

        • look, I don’t care about myths, I took all the mythology classes I needed when I was around 12 … the deal is it’s violent language and any one can turn it into anything they want to …

          consider David Koresh, Jim Jones …

          all deistic religions are about controlling others through myth … christianity is not exempt … there are extremists and crazy folks in just about every sect

    • Matthew 10:21-22, 34-39

      Brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child; children will turn against their parents and send them to their death. All will hate you for your allegiance to me; but the man who holds out to the end will be saved….You must not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth; I have not come to bring peace, but a sword. I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a son’s wife against her mother-in-law; and a man will find his enemies under his own roof. No man is worthy of me who cares more for father or mother than for me; no man is worthy of me who cares for son or daughter; no man is worthy of me who does not take up his cross and walk in my footsteps is not worthy of me. By gaining his life a man will lose it; by losing his life for my sake, he will gain it.

    • Revelation 19:15 prophesies that Jesus will make war on the nations Himself one day.

      nope, nothing peaceful about the new or old testament …

      • Jesus (as son of God) making war and bringing the holy spirot down is a little different than asking people to make war on his behalf. Again, you have to explain it to me. Where in these verses is Christ instigating violence towards anybody.

        • that’s instigating a war, that’s violence … I don’t see anything different about that or some general running a bunch of tanks through Berlin… it’s not about peace, it’s about creating chaos in families … looks violent to me … I don’t see anything metaphorical about it … looks like a dude ordering division and violence to me

          • I have to disagree. I do not see an open instigation towards war there and when you put it together with the “love your enemy” you will find the allegorical meaning making more sense. But let us have it your way.

            I was not planning on entering a theological debate. The point I am making is all religions need reform. Most religions have reformed a great deal especially over the last couple of centuries. Islam is in need of reform today and to pretend that is not true is foolish.

        • You’re making our point for us. Fine, Jesus is a man of peace who spoke beautiful words to his followers. His followers then took that mandate and waged ruthless war on nonbelievers, perverting his message in their zealotry. See a pattern?

    • He said to them, ‘When I sent you out without a purse, bag or sandals, did you lack anything?’ They said, ‘No, not a thing.’ He said to them, ‘But now, the one who has a purse must take it, and likewise a bag. And the one who has no sword must sell his cloak and buy one. For I tell you, this scripture must be fulfilled in me, “And he was counted among the lawless”: and indeed what is written about me is being fulfilled.” They said, ‘Lord, look, here are two swords.’ He replied, ‘It is enough.’ (Luke 22:35-38, NRSV)

      Okay … why is a peaceful christ asking people to sell their clothes and buy a sword so the scripture can be fulfilled and then saying two swords is enough ?

      yep ma’m, every peaceful dude needs two swords.

      • Ok. Let us have it your way and say the words of Christ are literal and meaning an instigation to war. If people were to derive inspiration from these words to start a war then I would say – christianity needs to be reformed.

        So when I look at a verse such as

        [9.5] So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, leave their way free to them; surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

        When I see followers accept the literal meaning of the above verse and wage war against idolators (or those they consider isolators) I will say – islam needs to be reformed.

        • Imagine there’s no Heaven
          It’s easy if you try
          No hell below us
          Above us only sky
          Imagine all the people
          Living for today

          Imagine there’s no countries
          It isn’t hard to do
          Nothing to kill or die for
          And no religion too
          Imagine all the people
          Living life in peace

          You may say that I’m a dreamer
          But I’m not the only one
          I hope someday you’ll join us
          And the world will be as one

        • No one is like rah rah for theocracy, but reform isn’t that easy. If Pat Robertson could get away with having people stoned, he probably would. The reason he can’t is because we have a high standard of living, we’re relatively secure in the sense that we have many more and more sophisticated weapons than anyone who wants to harm us, we have access to education, good infrastructure, indoor plumbing, etc. The thing about demagogues, they like to gain power through exploitation and don’t have their followers’ best interests at heart. So it’s hard to appeal to their better selves and ask them to please change. And as long as their are populations living under desperate conditions, plus authoritarian regimes where they don’t have a choice anyway, then there will be desperate people looking for a way out who will sign on.

          • The Dominionist/Christian Reconstruction movement explicitly endorses the Mosaic penalties for adultery, unchastity, unbelief, etc., up to and including stoning. And if they aren’t scary enough, look up the Joel’s Army outfit on the Southern Poverly Law Center’s website that tracks hate groups.

            These are the “Christians” that got their claws into Rifqa Bary, the girl who ran away from her Muslim family in Ohio to one of their “pastors” in Florida. These guys are here now, and they’re dangerous.

      • Then there was the matter of occupying the Temple by force, a clearly violent if not lethal act, and the fact that at least one of his closest followers was an anti-Roman terrorist.

        I belong to the school that believes that the historical Jesus had not only a religious but a political agenda that involved freeing Judea from Roman rule and the reinstatement of the Davidic monarchy, something that would happen in conjunction with the manifestation of the Kingdom of Heaven. At least in the texts as we currently have them, it’s not altogether clear how that was to happen. In turn, that may be because the texts as we now have them are clearly slanted toward appeasing those same Romans with assurances that the Jesus movement was not a political faction and did not support the overthrow of Roman rule in Judea. Unless previously unknown documents come to light, those elements were permanently lost with the destruction of Jewish Christianity in 70 CE, leaving us with the gentile-centric Pauline version.

        • Christianity right now is a result of what the Nicean Council decided to make it in the 3rd century. They carefully crafted a religion to control their Empire. Constantine was no fool and never converted. He remained the high priest of the Sun God. That’s even why the Roman brand of christianity does their sabbath on Sundays compared to the eastern brands.

  34. Don’t think we need a battle of the religions. Like societies, all religions are capable of extremism, and that is pretty much always a bad thing. I met my wife because Muslim extremists were beheading Christians in her town in Indonesia and she fled to the US, though she herself is not religious. Radical Buddism was behind Japanese facism during WW II alongside Shinto. Sufis have been capable of extreme violence when pressed. There is peace, goodness, violence, and injustice in every faith. No one gets to be better than the other. In fact value judgements and competition relating to faith is what gets us into trouble in the first place. But for me personally (an atheist), the fact that some wacko went off the deep end and murdered 13 of our soldiers does not make me ponder the evils of Christianity or Islam. I understand the desire the fight the backlash, but there is zero need to defend or apologize for this man.

  35. seems there is quite enough intolerance to go around these days

    • Look, I’m perfectly tolerant of whatever christians choose to do in their homes and their churches. That’s exactly where it needs to stay because this is a secular society and many brands of christianity as well as many brands of other doctrines do not have a live and let live philosophy. They onward Christian soldier the rest of us into their agendas.

      • That includes forcing psuedo science on our schools and then intolerance of gays and patriarchal rules also. Additionally, it includes irrational approaches to reproductive rights, birth control, and medical research.

        Religiosity has been and will continue to be a major source of war and human rights violations. All you have to do is look at the history which includes not only the wars themselves but the missionary movements to get a really good handle on that.

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