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      I am unintersted in “hope.” Or as we called it in the Obama bullshit years, Hopium. Hope is not a plan. Hope is bullshit. Luck is real, but you don’t count on luck other than in the sense that the harder you work, and the more things you do, the more likely you are to […]
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We’re being infiltrated!


There are rumors reports going around the lefty blogosphere that we are being infiltrated by wingnuts.  Apparently “some” liberal blogs are allowing people to post comments and links that don’t come from approved sources.  According to one Self-Appointed Guardian Of Liberal Purity (SAGOLP) even The Confluence was “filled with people defending torture and talking about how Obama was a socialist.”  Another SAGOLP claims we sold Hillary out for a $50,000 shopping spree! (Riverdaughter must have kept it all cuz I never got anything)

It seems that liberal ideas are inferior and can’t compete in the marketplace of ideas.  Even worse, liberals are so weak-minded that they can’t discern the difference between true and false.  Apparently our minds are so open that our brains have fallen out, so when someone says “Obama is a socialist” all of our education and experience is wiped out and we assume it is true.

All is not lost.  Occasionally you’ll see some maroon nut-job brave liberal freedom fighter scream “You’re lying – and that’s a conservative source” before being dragged away by the Secretive Police.  For those who can’t handle freedom of speech there are liberal islands of ideological purity out there that don’t allow dissenting or opposing views.  (They are called “echo chambers.”)

You can defend Left Blogistan too!  Make sure you only get your information from “approved” sources.  Run all your comments through the Meme-analyzer before posting to make sure they aren’t infected with right-wing tropes.  And change your underwear everyday.

190 Responses

  1. BTW – when did someone defend torture here at TC?

    • If they did, I missed it. Perhaps the pristine, holier-than-thou folks should find the reference and post a link?

    • Maybe it has something to do with the testicle twister and buttcheek glue injector machines we installed in the spam filter.

    • Wasn’t me, I am a card carrying ACLU member! Gee they must have forgotten all the anti-torture videos we put up that could have given them a clue…gosh all that work for not. WHA! (grannie torture videos don’t count as real torture, unless of course we make you do needle point with sub standard lighting).

    • Oh wait, was that me? I think I said something about squeezing Obots heads to see if they had anything in them.

    • No one here defended torture per se, but someone here did defend, in rather passionate terms, the School of the Americas, known for very good reasons as the torture school. That’s okay–we certainly don’t all have to agree about TSOTA, just as we don’t all have to agree with foreign policy debates in general.

      But what I don’t get is the following sentence:

      Even worse, liberals are so weak-minded that they can’t discern the difference between true and false.

      I personally believe that it is often extremely difficult to discern the difference between true and false–I know I struggle with it all the time. I don’t think that makes me weak-minded, merely honest.

      • inky…I believe it was snark.

      • I missed the passionate defense of the School of the Americas. I do recall someone poo pooing a reference to it. To me that doesn’t qualify as passionate defense, but to each his own….

        • The original reference to SOA was in regard to Honduras – the “defense” was the questioning of a causal connection between some training 20 years ago and the recent actions of a couple of SOA graduates.

          • Someone asked a question? -Off to the firing squads with them(I’m not condoning torture by out and out calling for execution-hee hee)

        • Maybe I overreacticted here’s what the person in question said

          Bite me dumbass!

          I’ve actually trained foreign military, though not at the School of the Americas. Like all other institutions there are good people and bad people sent to it. Attending doesn’t make you a torturer, you are when you leave pretty much what you were when you arrived. Hopefully a little more disciplined and better able to keep yourself alive if the need arises.

          You’re the ignorant ones and I hope life treats you well enough that you stay that way.

          Hell, what do I know–maybe the commenter above is even correct about the School today–it does not allow outsiders to audit its curriculum. As I said earlier, I often find it hard to discern between what’s true and false myself. But I do know for a fact that at one point the School taught interrogation techniques that qualify as torture to thousands of graduates.

          I’m not opposed to anyone’s quoting right-wing sources, even WSJ op eds–I just hope that they don’t mind when I quote other sources.

          • well the WSJ broke the Cheney/CIA story yesterday.

          • That commenter was me and, from personal experience, I can tell you that no training course takes a nice young man and turns him into a torturer. Just doesn’t fucking happen.

            Though I admit my personal experience wasn’t in teaching interrogation techniques so maybe that’s special, nyahh. I taught combat skills and survival.

            I find it amazing how you know for a fact what was taught at the SOTA. Did Prof Diddles tell you all about it at your consciousness raising session?

            Understand, I don’t doubt it was done for a minute in the 80s. I would be very surprised to find it occurring now, if for no other reason than it draws so much fire.

            This is in no way a defense of torture, rendition, or any of the steps taken in the so-called war on terror. I want every person involved up to the highest levels of our government investigated and prosecuted, if it’s warranted.

            Acknowledging our wrongdoing is the only way this country can ever start to get the respect of the world back. It’s also absolutely necessary to re-establish the rule of law and get our constitutional rights restored. I want my country back!

          • I think the point is that would be torturers were travelling to SOA to get instruction, not that sweet fresh faced kids went in and came out torturers. They went in torturers and came out vastly more effective torturers.

          • Maybe, but that’s sure not how I took it. I don’t think it was stated that way either and don’t really give a damn now.

          • Hey RalphB,

            I know about it because a good friend of mine made a documentary about the School and its activities in the 1980s, which interviewed graduates from the School of Americas and showed some of the material the School provided for these graduates. He also interviewed people who had been tortured by the death squads that were run by these graduates. I thought my friend di a very good job of establishing a chain of causality. The name of the documentary is “The Houses Are Full of Smoke” and though it’s hard to get one’s hands on this documentary, if you email me your address, I’ll try to get a copy made for you.

          • Establishing causality would mean showing that “but for” the SOA there would have been no torture or death squads.

            The various military organizations in Latin America had a bad reputation for being brutal and oppressive long before the creation of SOA.

          • Actually, one of the interesting things about the documentary was that it also showed lower-level torturers who had been rounded up and trained by the SOA graduates to perform interrogations, and they reminded me very much of Lynndie England and some of the other Abu Graib turturers–these were people didn’t strike me as innately sadistic, but were turned into torturers. So I disagree with you that all torturers are innately sadistic.

          • I never said “all torturers are innately sadistic.”

            The governments of Latin America have been brutal and oppressive since the days of the Conquistadores. The SOA didn’t change that.

            Showing causality would require evidence that the SOA grads that participated in torture and death squads would not have done those things had they not attended SOA

          • In all my years of studying psychology, I’ve never seen any evidence that sadism is in any way “innate,” meaning transmitted through genes. It is a behavior that is learned as far as I know.

          • Myiq,

            I didn’t mean to suggest that you said that–I was responding to RalphB, but your post followed before mine did (these confusions arise easily when one gets to the end of directly reply-able posts).

          • I have the greatest respect for TC, but sometimes the FPers here do go beyond the call of duty in attacking perceived enemies of the site. I understand the “circle the wagons” mentality, since I spent many months on sites like dKos witnessing the b.s. that BB and others had to put up with. But sometimes I think the defensiveness here goes too far. I may have been snark-challenged last night and today, but I don’t get why myiq has to treat me like a complete idiot and deliberately misinterpret everything I had to say. Frankly, I also don’t know why RalphB thinks it’s alright to call people who have problems with the SOA dumbasses and repeatedly insult their intelligence.

            If after all the time I’ve spent on this site, I’m still seen as the enemy, perhaps I should take my sorry-ass comments elsewhere.

          • Inky, on July 14th, 2009 at 10:15 am Said:

            Inky, for what it’s worth, I completely agree with all you say here! I am so sorry to see the way you’ve been treated – you, who always debate in the most civil way and treat everybody with respect. You certainly don’t deserve this.

            Maybe you have to be a FP yourself, not to be hit on by (or for that matter be defended by) FPers. But please don’t leave or stop commenting. Please! I always enjoy your comments and have great respect for you.

      • We all struggle with figuring out what is true and what is bullshit – but the solution is not to abdicate the job and let someone else decide for us.

        • It’s probably my fault. I’m the one that always assumes no one needs pre-digested information. I’m getting used to the Dakinikat Derangement Syndrome. Now, if I could only find a way to pay my bills with it all.

          • It’s that college professor thing you got going on. If you were only an elementary school teacher. 😉

          • Too bad you aren’t a community organizer. The return with that job seems to be pretty amazing.

          • unfortuantely, i work for the state of lousyana in higher education … I am a much underpaid and abused work unit

          • Hey Dak,

            I hope you know that I don’t suffer from DDS, and I was proud of you for speaking out against tthe SOA in that post. I disagreed with the gist on your original post, but I was delighted that you welcomed debate.

            I wouldn’t have piped up in this post, but I disagreed with myiq’s contention that only the weak-minded have a difficult time discerning between what is true and false.

          • There you go putting words in my mouth.

            What I ACTUALLY said (snarkily) was:

            “Even worse, liberals are so weak-minded that they can’t discern the difference between true and false.”

            You are apparently the only person who didn’t understand what I was saying.

          • I guess I didn’t get the snark. Certainly you can see how I could have misread your sentence as I did.

          • No I can’t see, not considering the snarky tone of the whole post.

          • Inky,

            Maybe if we defined the “snark” more specifically as sarcasm you could understand? It seems to be you are being deliberately obtuse. Maybe you can’t help it, but is sarcasm really that hard to understand?

          • I apologize for my comments on this thread–they probably sounded as if I was lying in wait to bring up old allegations. That wasn’t the case–I’ve just been in a bad mood because I’ve had some extremely distressing personal news and I was probably venting my bad mood on this post. I also realize that I am not in the mainstream of TC opinion when it comes to most FP matters, so maybe I should just stick to econ and domestic posts in the future.

          • Inky,

            I’m sorry you’re having a tough time. However, I don’t really think we have a “mainstream” opinion here. Perhaps you just didn’t find the post funny because of your mood. That happens to me somtimes.

          • SoD, if you go back to my original comment, you’ll see that I never suggested such a thing. I merely pointed out that one commenter did mount a rousing defense of the SOA–I haven’t even seen the post the myiq based this post on, and I’m pretty sure that it’s full of shit.

            But I also understand why some get their noses bent out of shape on some TC posts that cover FP. Whatever. As I already said, I was upset about other matters when I made my first comment here, and I probably would have left this entire post alone if I hadn’t been upset.

            I’ll be more circumspect in the future.

          • Inky -please don’t start doing only econ/domestic here. You’re a great left wing commenter.

            I noticed ralphb’s comments too, about the SOA, and wasn’t too fond of them.

            However just to be fair ralphb did make this comment around about that time on another thread strongly against
            a mass killing of hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Taliban prisoners of war by the forces of a US-backed warlord during the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan

            RalphB, on July 11th, 2009 at 10:37 am Said:

            It was a war crime! I’m not OK with the murder of prisoners of war.

            RalphB, on July 11th, 2009 at 11:58 am Said:

            Those killed were Taliban (maybe). They were prisoners of a Northern Alliance warlord who was a CIA asset.

            But that doesn’t matter, it’s still a war crime!.

          • I often agree with RalphB. I was simply upset with both his dismissiveness of others (claiming authority when he he no first-hand experience with the SOA) and his rudeness in that post.

            Anyway, thanks for the kind words. I can use them today, even though I have the darnedest way of soliciting them. I’m dealing with a personal crisis right now that may keep me away from blogging for a while, but I do hope to get back to it someday.

          • oh well-best wishes Inky. Hope things work out for you.

          • Thanks, Laurie.

            The stupid thing Is that I do feel like I’ve made friends on this site, and I’m going to miss you all, even if I am a royal pain in the ass aroudn here sometimes.

          • I don’t think Ralph B was at all denying that SOA had in the past been pretty horrendous. I think he was merely pointing out that because some involved in Honduras’ military had been to that school 20 years ago did not automatically make them all evil torturers today.

            The point was that one needs more evidence than a thin connection to the SOA to dismiss the entire current govt of Honduras (including the congress and court) as bloody dictators.

            If that is “defending torture”, then these people are batshit crazy.

          • Well, Ralph did say “Bite me, dambass” and seemed to indicate the SOA never promoted torture techniques, but whatever. I know that you and I disagree on whether what occurred in the Honduras should be labeled a coup, but I never tried to use a thin connection to the SOA to dismiss the entire current govt of Honduras (including the congress and court) as bloody dictators. I only know that the action was not as popular as some here seem to think in the Honduras itself–even among those who did not support Zelaya. I’ll take my satisfaction in knowing that The Organization of American States, the General Assembly of the United Nations, the European Union, virtually every regional organization in the Western Hemisphere, and the presidents of 33 Latin American republics have condemned the coup, and let you and other Conflucians believe whatever the hell you want to believe.

            I’ve been in a sour mood because I’ve just been diagnosed with breast cancer, so I’m simply using this hopeless exchange as a way to distract me from my fears. But I must confess that it is pretty silly way to deal with my situation.

          • (((((((Inky)))))))))

            Let us know how things go with all that wonderful US health care/ picky US health insurance.
            Has it been diagnosed late or early?

          • I’m scared that it may not have been early enough, but I’ll find out this week I guess. I saw my breast doctor last year, but I should have seens her more recently. It’s stupid, but I have to see her today and my biggest fear right now is that she is going to yell at me.

          • Inky!!! I answered you above, before reading this later bad news. I’m so, so sorry. I hope you’ll let us know how you are doing, and not just disappear.

            Know that I consider you the only friend, that I have here on TC. Lol, may sound stupid, but true. Always treasured your popping in and saying hi! That has ment a lot to me.

            I hope all turn out for the best Inky! Do take care!

          • Hey Pips!

            Thank you so much! Your words mean so much to me–I’ve long felt that you were my one true friend on the site as well.

            I truly think I’m going to make it through this medical mishegoss all right. In most ways I’m as healthy as all get out, and I intend to go all Winston Churchill on these damn rogue cells. It’s just the waiting around for news that’s the hard part. I just downloaded an escapist audiobook on my iPod, and I think I’ll listen to that until my appointment.

            Your friendship means a lot to me and feels very real and not at all virtual right now.

            Thank you for that.

        • The best lack all conviction, while the worst
          Are full of passionate intensity.

          Damn straight. No arguments here, right? Better not be. Dismiss this out of hand and you’ll have to deal with, with, with, well, someone or other.

    • Never. Absolutely never or I would have burst a gasket.

  2. Thx myiq – I just came from the site that stated TC approved torture. Ok, I’ll admit the pain meds make me kinda sleepy, but did I sleep through that?

    Jaysus, such shite from people who think they’re the catz ass makes my head ache.

  3. Another SAGOLP claims we sold Hillary out for a $50,000 shopping spree!

    pish posh…whatcha gonna get with 50K? A new pair of earrings?

    • or the front pagers can get a few pairs of designer tennis shoes.

      • Just don’t get anything with heels- I hear if you where them you are subliminally “asking for it” (tongue firmly in cheek) and heaven forbid you paint your toenails.

    • Yeah, apparently you, SOD, Reg, and I got the money, or something. I waited ouTside Candy Castle for hours planning how to spend my share, and you guys bailed on me. ;(

  4. Maybe the pristine liberal sites could also set up an “approved sources wiki” to provide guidance for those of us who aren’t in the know?

    • One lesson I learned from last year is you can’t trust anybody in the media.

      (Except Paul Krugman)

      (maybe)

    • And approved language/buzz words. We wouldn’t want to accidentally stumble into using phrases like justice and health care for all and such awful things that are just no longer hip and cool with the Obot crowds and the DNC.

      • If your only rebuttal is an ad hominem argument (“That’s a conservative source”) then your shit is pretty weak anyway.

  5. OK, boyz and girls, please don’t do this to anyone…i
    t is torture! (posted for the visitors that missed it)

  6. I guess I got edumacated before the new age. I was taught to read opposing points learn all sides of an issue before making decisions. I was taught to know your enemy otherwise how can you fight them.
    I think I am like most people liberal on some issues and conservative on others.
    I always want the best for the people of America. I want politicians who do their jobs and do the best for America.
    I am against torture because I have read it does not work and I want us to be better then someone who does torture.
    I am against drugs because in the last 35 years more families have been hurt by drugs than any other reason.
    I do not want anyone telling me what I can read or what I can think or what I can listen to or watch. I can make a decision on my own.

    When you divide the $50,000 can you send me a money order as I do not want my checking account number posted.
    Thank you

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

    • No money orders Helen; do you prefer large or small bills?

      • Well, since it is monopoly money (cuz I haven’t seen no real money honey) give me large ones. 😉

      • A mixture of large and small bills but no change as change is too heavy when I carry my pocketbook.

        Thank you

        WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

        PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  7. These attacks don’t surprise me at all sadly. Here we are, a real liberal site, pushing real liberal ideas, and arguing real issues unfiltered by what’s acceptable by Obama and the DNC. And as things get worse, and as Obama is clearly an operative of the financial industry, folks over in Orange/Obot land are getting a wee bit uncomfortable. Their reaction, lash out at those who were right all along. Heaven forbid acknowledge or even officially noticed that the topics and coverage here is more open and liberal than the echo crap their doing. Poor tortured souls. Oh no, I think I condoned torture again.

  8. when someone says “Obama is a socialist”
    ********
    If Obama was a Socialist, I would have voted for him. Unfortunately he is a corrupt, sociopathic, fraud who is also a bought and paid for corporation stooge.

    • If Obama was a Socialist, I would have voted for him.

      Ha! That’s what I always say. Obama is as much a socialist as Paula Abdul is a singer.

    • Same here. If only I had a chance to vote for a socialist. Maybe I should move to Vermont and then I could vote for Bernie Sanders.

    • If he’s so socialist then why can’t we get government run healthcare?

      There I go thinking critically and all again.

      I never realized I was going to need a frontal lobotomy to consider myself a “real liberal”. (I vote they continue to call themselves namby pamby progressives and let us -the ones not afraid of fighting the good fight- retain the name liberal)

      • if he’s a socialist why aren’t we getting the profits from all the banks and all the auto manufacturers and all the other corporations we keep bailing out?

        • 11 dimensional chess silly.

        • Lambert over at Corrente is on a tear today regarding the economy. He had one earlier about why isn’t the Obama administration bailing out small business NOW, NOW, NOW and I was just reading why doesn’t the adminstration bail out homeowners NOW, NOW, NOW. Apparently the administration is throwing out lots and lots of trial balloons.

          • It will be a while before they see that Obama never intended to do such a thing. Why would he? Just like he never intended to provide universal health care. He even promised that during his campaign. Jeez, it’s like these people have no idea who Obama is. Oh wait, that’s right, they don’t.

          • Flat trial balloons at that.

          • Lambert had several comments removed at TL this weekend because he wasn’t on the O page with J. It was funny.

          • Lambert who?

    • Me too, despite what an a$$hat he is. I’d put aside Obama’s personality flaws and give him my vote if he were an honest-to-goodness Socialist.

    • Likewise.

  9. Pardon me if I have a problem with groupthink. Always have, always will. That’s what makes me…um…a LIBERAL. I’m really glad to see that this miniscule, insignificant group of bitter old knitters is giving them such heartburn. 🙂

    “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” – Aristotle

  10. I think we’re going to have to take this infiltration thing serious.

    OK, myiq, can you watch the door from 9-midnight? and then I’ll set my alarm and hold down the fort until 6am. Then, KB or Boomer can relieve me…

    BTW…do we have enough ammo to stave off the invasion or should I put in a requisition?

  11. i have a question. if we are so inconsequential, why are they stalking and following us and trying to smear reputations? it just goes to show you that if you can’t discuss the issues in an intelligent way, smear the heck out of us.

    • That is the question of the hour.

      They do seem to be revving up their attacks again, don’t they?

      Wonder why? Is it cuz Palin resigned?? Or cuz Obie’s polling is shaky?

  12. Personally, it doesn’t say much for sites that don’t allow opposing viewpoints to be discussed openly and civilly. It’s the equivalent of saying I believe the people who view this site lack the critical thinking skills.

    I never thought I’d see the day where basically you are told to throw out the things you learned in college about writing persuasively or speaking persuasively, it’s all about what you learned in elementary school and who can namecall or tell better your momma jokes.

  13. Ha ha! Marcy Wheeler said “blowjob” on MSNBC.

    http://firedoglake.com/2009/07/13/marcy-wheeler-says-blowjob-on-msnbc/

    Horrors! But when David Shuster said Hillary was “pimping out” Chelsea, he got a paid vacation.

    • And when Olberman suggested Hillary should a man should take Hillary in a room and only he should come out, nothing happened.

    • If they can say “teabag” why not “blowjob?”

      • Because with “teabag”, they could all giggle and pretend that that wasn’t what they were saying. It’s the equivalent of a pimply kid thinking himself ever so clever for coughing and saying “bullshit” in class.

        • How sad is it that the people we have entrusted our fourth estate to are mentally stunted at the developmental maturity level of a prepubescent teen?

      • Good question.

    • In our warped puritan cultural psyche, it is fine to spend millions trying to hound a good man out of office for a blowjob, but not okay to say the icky word.

      Our press consists of sexually stunted 12-year olds, alternately giggling over and being made deeply uncomfortable by their own peepees.

  14. I once clicked on a link at the drudgereport that took me to an AP article…

    crap! they’re everywhere!!! and they’re invading my mind.

  15. I’ve been known to use the term “uniquely American”

  16. OT: TOTUS had a fall.

    Midway through his speech on urban and metropolitan policy in the Eisenhower Executive Office Building this afternoon, one of his two small glass prompters came crashing down, hitting the wood floor and crashing in many pieces. It made quite a ruckus.

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/07/if-a-teleprompter-falls-in-the-white-house-does-it-make-a-sound.html

  17. Case closed. mystery solved.

  18. Presenting legislation to prevent the creation of “human-animal hybrids” WTH??????

    http://senatorsambrownback.blogspot.com/2009/07/brownback-landrieu-introduce-human.html

    • LOL. Now there’s some legislation worthy of brownback. What a dweeb. And just when I was getting all excited about my moosealope on order.

    • Don’t forget to give a shoutout to Landrieu too. Geez, they’re just making certain that the states where you can practice the equivalent of man -turtle love don’t result in progeny. 😉

      They are channeling the political expertise of Sanatorum.

    • Wasn’t that in Bush’s last SOTU? I swear he might have used the word “chimera.” We need more surrealism in our national discourse.

      • Someone needs to take the Scifi books away from them in the fiction section. Perhaps point them toward the economic section of the bookstore.

        • I can’t really complain, it may have been the biggest laugh of the year. 🙂

      • I laughed about that. Guess Brownback has no sense of humor 🙂

      • don’t know if it was his last SOU, but I definitely remember Bush seriously intoning “human animal hybrids”… and I just laughed right out loud…

        • I *shrieked* and not out of fear of the dreaded human-animal hybrids. You never forget the first time you hear the President of the United States say “we will work to prevent human-animal hybrids.”

          • Apparently they became concerned over this all important issue after they realized that car companies were releasing “hybrids”

          • Speaking of hybrids, check out the new post

          • Lol! No, but seriously what they’re talking about is fusing human cells and animal cells to do medical research, cure diseases, develop drugs and so on, because of limits on stem cell research and all that. So once again, lifesaving technological development is being held back because Brownback and Landrieu are afraid of a superrace of talking cow people.

          • Haven’t you seen the happy cows in the commercials for “real California cheese?”

          • We successfully fought the battle against freakishly oversized, genetically modified anthropomorphic saxophone playing raisins, what chance do happy cows have? If they were smart enough to pose a threat, they’d have sinister British accents.

          • How about fake Scottish accents?

          • Like lambs to the slaughter, all we need is one dog shaped hand puppet. This isn’t the can-do American spirit.

    • moosalope hell! He’s going after Centaurs and Mermaids.

    • Human-animal hybrids? and I bet he doesn’t believe in global warming! lol! Maybe if we called hybrid cars,
      centaurs…he’s be more interested !

    • Ever since I saw pics on tv of a poor pig alone in a concrete pen with human eyes, I’ve been against human hybrids.

      (product of genetic engineering)

  19. Palin op-ed against Obama cap-and-trade in tomorrow’s (July 14) WaPo:

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/13/AR2009071302852.html

    • the sad thing is the that comments mostly all imply or directly state that Gov. Palin is too stupid to have written the column. Whatever your take on her policy, the comments are clearly PDS

      • There are one or two rational comments there. I liked the one where they pointed out that all the idiots commentating weren’t even refuting any of her points.

        Apparently the deranged half of Left Blogistan feels “Nyah, Nyah, Nayah you dumb girl” is an argument and that it will suffice.

        • What is sadder is that it unfortunately worked already, hence the election of BO…. “Nyah, nyah, nyah… you all are r@cist so we don’t have to listen to you or think about how unqualified BO is”

          The funny thing is that many of their comments could apply even better to BO than to Palin

    • Whoa, the “clean coal” bit is not good , Guv. Ain’t no such thing. (Wait, isn’t this Palin person supposed to be illiterate?)

      • I wish she paid even a little time and attention to solar and wind somewhere in the commentary or discussed some sort of viable public transport system. Alas, it seems she is stuck on drill baby drill. I don’t mind considering domestic coal and oil but I do think we are missing opportunities by not looking at this as an opportunity to look beyond those and I defintely am not keen on nuclear until I see that we have some sort of solution to getting rid of the byproduct or have better security at the facilities we already have.

        That being said, I’m glad she isn’t letting them intimidate her into being quiet.

        • I sort of agree. The big challenge with “alternative fuels” is that pound for pound so to speak, you can’t get nearly the bang for the buck that you get from fossil fuels and nuclear energy. Solar, tidal, wind, etc., are far less energy dense and therefore terribly inefficient sources of energy and consequentially are horrendously expensive. To be fair (Kat5), she does say “cleaner” coal, not clean coal. This is an engineering rather than a political issue.

          I think nuclear can be a good solution, but as you say we need to deal with the waste issue, which really shouldn’t be a problem, since the French, Japanese and Russians have managed to derive huge amounts of their energy from these sources without much difficulty. We definitely need to beef up security though at these plants.

          • I’m not certain that if the materials weren’t readily available that solar would be that expensive. My husband and I are researching converting some of our house to solar in anticipation of the energy policy changes. Our electric company got turned down for 17% of a 39% increase last October. They are already trying to get that extra 17%.

            Are you volunteering your neighborhood to be the next Yucca Mountain? 😉 I don’t know what the French, Russians or the Japenese do with their waste but I do know that Americans don’t seem to be anxious to have the waste in thier neighborhoods.

            I do think that we have an abundance of coal and if we could figure out how to burn it cleaner it would solve alot of problems. we aren’t there yet. It doesn’t mean we stop looking.

            I do wish there was more discussion about people cutting their consumption as well and more of an effort to conserve. There ought to be incentives to create and use a public transit system or more grants for community gardens. There is an opportunity for Americans to get beyond the compartmentalizing that has occurred and recreate a sense of community. I just don’t even see that aspect entering the dialogue hardly at all. Even cap and trade seems to make the assumption that we keep going along as we have and just make the behavior more expensive.

  20. Oh no! I’ve been discovered! Imagine the audacity that a liberal blog would allow a little ole’ conservative ex-Dem like me to post her without being drawn and quartered, and then driven out with sticks and rocks.

    • We prefer the tarred and feathered route (we’re so old we still remember what we learned during WWI).

  21. I’m a little late to the party but I still want to share my 2 cents:

    I’ve seen it said here a couple of times but nobody ever said the WSJ was a bad source for information. Au contraire, the WSJ is by any standard a great newspaper, the problem there is only their putrid editorial page. That thing is nothing but a propaganda organ for the Rightwing agenda.

    There’s a good difference between a news article, something you can get everywhere and an opinion piece or analysis of the news: That’s where the bias and the agenda come in. The AP is a very good example for that.

    An item gathered from a Rightwing blog is to be taken with a grain of salt, especially when you consider the subject at hand ie health-care war, tax cuts and so on.

    In most instances, there’s no denying that the source of the comment and the object of the comment are germane .

    P_Luk doesn’t deserve any defense from me because of his boorish behavior on the infamous “Honduras-day”. However, to be fair to him (and in this instance I hate to do it), his beef with Dkat was that her post was based on the WSJ Editorial page and 2 Rightwing blogs, hardly 2 reliable sources of information, especially when we’re talking about South America and a potential US intervention. He could have made that point clear without outright assaulting Kat.

    • He also could have suggested other sources. I agree with his POV, but all he did was yell about how bad the sources were, and when anyone asked him for a source he liked, he’d say something like, do some research. Hey, unhelpful!

    • Actually, the original point of DK’s post was that the ONLY information she could find was on the op-ed page of WSJ.

      She then provided updates from other sources (left, right etc.) as they came available.

      • Yes, she and bb were looking for information, making his refusal to suggest any sources all the more irritating. Why not help people who are looking for information, oh I don’t know, find some that’s reliable instead of insulting them?

        • His behavior that day is still a mystery to me.

          I found the post in question a day later and I remember read close to 200 (!) on that thread because I couldn’t believe what was going on.

      • Exactly-her point was that she could only find information from right-wing sources.

        But some people have that bad academic habit of only controlling links and not reading what’s actually written.

      • right — she was VERY clear about that. And honestly miq’s original post really speaks to that. We are more than intelligent readers. Not all conservative writers and thinkers are illiterate propaganda organs (even gasp! conservative bloggers). God knows I hope some conservative, even right wing, bloggers read the excellent writing and analysis over here and take it into account. wouldn’t THAT be refreshing!

        I’ve seen some conservative sites make very fair comments about Puma blogs, ie that they may not agree with us but they respect our integrity and principles. I dont see what ‘s so EVIL about agreeing that the same could be true of (some) conservative writers.

        good conversation. thanks for the post miq2xu.

  22. there are liberal islands of ideological purity

    I always believed one of the core precepts of Liberalism to be Tolerance.

    (Lefty/Progressives being far more presumptuous)

  23. “I do wish there was more discussion about people cutting their consumption as well and more of an effort to conserve.”

    Completely agree. Someone needs to have this hard conversation with the American people. I don’t agree with everything JH Kunstler says but in this he is bang-on: The much-vaunted “American way of life” or as he calls it, “Happy Motoring,” is OVER — it needs to be killed, it needs to die. (And as Kunstler notes, it can be replaced by a far more livable, less stressful, smaller-scale alternative, if we only had the right leadership to get Americans to see that.)

    I’m torn about nuclear because of the waste question — OTOH it is cheap and available; IIRC, France is 100% independent of foreign oil or very close to it. Since we are apparently incapable of making real, hard changes w/r/t to protecting the environment, I am starting to think that nuclear is our only realistic option.

  24. >>Make sure you only get your information from “approved” sources. Run all your comments through the Meme-analyzer before posting to make sure they aren’t infected with right-wing tropes.

    I, too, have been banned by Corrente.

    I was told their taste level was so superior to mine that I couldn’t be trusted to express myself in the approved manner. How that kind of control feakism can be considered liberal is beyond me.

    Carolyn Kay
    MakeThemAccountable.com

  25. I think they’re talking about a couple days at No Quarter when a few centrist commenters were, um, centrist about torture. SusanUnPC was surprised. She also happens to havr expertise in that area. A few centrist commenters there are against socialism and think Obama is a socialist. I’m sure parts of his budget and stimulus fund government projects but I don’t think he’s socialist at all.

    I should be a blog historian having been in all parts of the progresive blogosphere for 3.5 years.

    It speaks to the strength of our liberal and feminist principles that we can read anything, know if it’s BS and extract truths from it.

  26. Hej Inky!

    I don’t know if you’ll see this now. I wanted to reply to you last night (my time), but my computer started acting up. I’m so happy to know you feel the same way about our friendship. :happy smile: And I want you to know, that I am still baffled over the amount of unfound accusations, that was thrown your way by the FPers. You of all people! The only reason I can find is, that they didn’t read what you actually wrote. And when you apologized – yes you who was the one being attacked was also the one apologizing! – you were condescendingly being patted on the head … and thrown a couple more insults.

    Nowhere did you show any form of DDS.

    Nowhere did you say that TC is filled with people defending torture.

    And no, you weren’t the only one thinking that a sentence like “Even worse, liberals are so weak-minded that they can’t discern the difference between true and false” imply that only weakminded people find it difficult to discern between true and false. So did I – and most probably many more.

    I really think that the FPers do this blog a disservice by going on the (gang)attack like this. Attacking our own! What’s the point? Shooing commenters away from commenting, so only the chosen few remain?

    Inky, back to your medical situation. I hope everything turns out for the best and that your doctor won’t yell at you. You certainly don’t need (more of!) that. I love your fighting spirit. Keep it up! And I will be crossing fingers, toes, what have you, that you will be well soon.

    Even if you don’t see this, I hope you feel the good vibes I’m sending your way!

    Now go “all Winston Churchill”, lol. All the best – and let us know how you are. Friend.

    • Yes Inky-Good Luck!!!! Let us know what your doctor said.

      Hi Pips-waves!!!!

    • Gang attack? No one said Inky thought TC was “filled with people defending torture.” This post was about another blog saying that. On the School of the Americas, who doesn’t know it’s a CIA outlet? Dakinikat even said that in the original post that was being discussed here.

      As soon as Inky said she was in a bad mood, I posted a sympathetic comment. She apparently didn’t see it or ignored it, but I posted it. I’ve been there. Sometimes you’re in a bad mood and you don’t see the intended humor in things you read.

      Just now, I reread this thread and learned that Inky has breast cancer. I’m horrified and hope and pray she’ll be OK. I consider myself a kind and caring person. It really hurts me to know that you see me in such a negative light, Pips. But feel free to keep on bashing if it makes you feel good.

      • Hey BB,

        I want to begin by thanking you for your kind words yesterday. But I also want to say, in Pips’ defense, that I did feel like I was getting the gang treatment. As I explained above, I can understand the “circle the wagons” mentality that tends to overcome FPers at any perceived slights to this site, but my criticisms were very mild and some of the responses I got were downright nasty. Just read what Myiq had to say to me and tell me that his responses were entirely justified. I shouldn’t have brought up RalhpB’s asenine comments, but they still stung after all this time (as I already explained, I used to life in the region and had a good friend who devoted many years to documenting the SOA’s and CIA’s invovements in death squads and right-wing coups in Central America) and I was tired of being repeatedly insulted by Ralph, including his latest “Did Prof Diddles tell you all about it at your consciousness raising session?” Screw that shit. And yet no one ever gets on Ralph’s case for being an ass like that.

        As I explained yesterday, I probably never would have commented on this thread, but I was in a terrible mood and annoyed by myiq’s “snarky” statement: “Even worse, liberals are so weak-minded that they can’t discern the difference between true and false.” Now you can color me stupid, but I thought that piece of snark translated to: We liberals are not so weak-minded that we are incapable of telling the difference beteen true and false. And I simply wanted to point out that it’s never easy to tell what’s really giong on, especially what’s going on in foreign countries with very different cultures from our own.

        I have to say in retrospect that Myiq was unnecessarily rude to me–I don’t know how you can read his exchange with me above and conclude otherwise–he took every opportunity possible to misread and take umbrage at what I had to say.

        And this isn’t the first time I’ve seen him being unnecessarily rude in this way. In fact, I recall a post in which he showed the same exact rudeness to Pips, which, I suspect, is part of the reason why Pips wrote what she did in the above post. I would like you to read the following post, focusing just on the exchange between Pips and Myiq. Maybe you will have a little understanding for where she and I are coming from.

        https://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2009/04/13/the-rescue-of-captain-phillips/

        I have so much respect for RiverDaughter, you, Dak, and other FPers here. Someday I’ll probably even forgive Myiq. I do have just one criticism of this site–and that is the needless defensiveness that overcomes the FPers at times. It really isn’t called for, and sometimes I think it keeps this site from expanding, as it conveys an impression of insularity and of in-groups and out-groups that I don’t really think you intend to convey.

        • Inky! I only just checked in to see if you were here on my way to making dinner. Not expecting it. But there you were, and bb too. Then after replying to bb my computer again started acting up … it’s gonna be late dinner today, lol.

          I agree with everything you said. And yes, you are right, I haven’t forgotten being called a bs’er and more or less a lier, that hide what I really mean between the lines of what I actually write. As if!

          I can name about 10 sincere, devoted commenters who have left over a couple of months, after having been ridiculed and bashed for no good reason. And bb if you read this, it always seems like at least two FPers back each other up doing this. Therefore my impression of “gang-mentality”.

          Like you Inky, I worry that this keeps TC from expanding, which saddens me. And any “perceived” (ha!) criticism is met with more ridicule, more bashing, so I sense that many commenters/lurkers (certainly myself!) just don’t dare/care to speak up.

          See, now you and I have discovered, that we have each other’s back, and so we can speak more openly than we have ever done before. But how often can you expect someone to take your side? Better to be safe and not say anything.

          Must go and make dinner now. Will be thinking of you Inky and your appointment. All the best. Pøj-pøj!

        • I read it (again) and I don’t believe I was the least bit rude.

          I presented my arguments in a concise and cogent manner. I did not misstate what you said or insult you.

          What you are doing now is called concern trolling.

      • bb, I was referring to this comment by sod on July 14th, 2009 at 8:22 am:

        “I think the bigger point is that if the “alleged” commentary consisted of one single, solitary post by RalphB, how does that constitute evidence that TC is “filled with” such comments?

        And the comment in question does not “endorse” torture, it merely discusses the implications of SOTAs involvement.

        1 + 1 = 284????”

        If I misunderstood that, and it wasn’t a reply to Inky, I apologize.

        I still don’t understand your calling Inky “deliberately obtuse”, and other condescending replies to Inky. It’s uncalled for.

        And how do you see me as “bashing”?! And why should I “feel good” about that? Now I’m the one that feel hurt!

        bb, I don’t see you in a negative light. Quite the contrary. Why would I? But I have always felt, that you more or less ignored me, even when i praised you or directed a comment to you. That’s ok. No way you could read all that is being written here. But believe me, I have no reason to in any way dislike you.

        I wish you would go back and carefully read what you 4 FPs write to and about Inky in this thread, please.

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