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Not so fast with the primaries, Atrios

Atrios did his best Rodney King imitation the other day.  Why can’t we all get along?  We’re all on the same side now.  We all want the same things on this side of the lefty blogosphere.  We should be cooperating instead of attacking each other.  Nice for him to say.  No one was calling him a stupid, racist c*nt last year, not that any of the name calling is true.  It doesn’t really bother me.  It just tears that whole cooperation thing to shreds.

In theory, I have to agree with him.  The lefty blogosphere is pretty much in agreement with regards to what we stand for and we should be working together to shift power our way.  Then he wrote something that shows that he still doesn’t get it:

“There was that primary business, of course, though the less said about the better.”

{{clearing throat, warming up typing fingers}}

Duncan, may I call you Duncan?  That was the dumbest thing you have ever written.  Well, you may have written dumber things but I may have missed them.  The reason why the lefty blogosphere is so impotent right now has everything to do with the primaries and how we have failed to discuss what happened to us.

Let’s look at what actually happened last year.  Barack Obama ran a terrible campaign.  Oh, I know this isn’t the conventional wisdom but that’s why conventional wisdom is so often wrong.  Obama spent a king’s ransom on trying to win the big states on SuperTuesday.  He couldn’t pull it off.  Instead, he focussed his attention on the caucuses, which were far easier to game.  And game them he did.  We have the affadavits to prove it.  But at the end of the day, he still needed the delegates from a state he didn’t even run in in order to get the nomination.  It all came down to Michigan.  Forget what ever the Obots were screaming about The Roolz.  The RBC had to bend the roolz to give Obama the win.

He wasn’t on the ballot in MI.  He wasn’t entitled to diddly-squat. In normal years, we would have called this a very foolish political decision.

But here’s the kicker: It wasn’t a normal year.

The powers that be wanted anyone but Clinton.  Now, we may all speculate who these powers are.  Clinton started out with a lot of committed superdelegates but lost nearly all of them before the final primary.  We can guess that the billionaire bankers saw the writing on the wall and pulled their weight for the weaker candidate.  Hillary would have been rehab; Obama was an enabler.  Anyone who paid attention to Obama skirting away from any controversial or politically sensitive stand in the past several years quickly realized that he doesn’t have a principled bone in his body.  Throwing people under the bus is his operant mode.  Heck, he rarely even referred to himself as a Democrat. But whatever.  Someone(s) wanted Clinton to fail.  So, they rigged MI.

Please do not tell me that MI wasn’t going to count.  It was always going to count and count fully.  Withholding Clinton’s MI and FL delegates from her win column just made her look like a loser all primary season.  The whole thing was smoke, mirrors and psychological one upsmanship.  It was a haka.  We knew it but would people listen to us? But I digress.

The reason why the 2008 primaries are still important is because the powers that rigged them emerged triumphant.  Not only did they rig them and get away with it, they had the support of half of the people they were planning to screw with the continuation of Bush’s policies.  Obama has capitulated to the bankers, he’s capitulated to the religious right on gays and women, he’s making no effort to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and he’s become a party to torture.

The torture issue is particularly relevent in this case because the left has been the most vociferous in insisting that we pull back the curtain on what happened.  We have been arguing that if we don’t know what happened and who instigated it, we won’t be able to re-establish the rule of law, our consitutional principles and our honor.  Every one of our men and women in uniform will be subject to the same treatment in the hands of our enemies.  Every US citizen is at risk of abuse from powers both foreign and domestic.  We need to out the people responsible, figure out how they subverted the law and put a stop to it or we are all vulnerable. Therefore, we press our representatives to not just sweep this infamy under the rug.  We need to ferret it out and hold it up for examination of all its ugliness or it will happen again.

For the same reasons, we need to investigate what happened in the primaries and find out who was responsible both inside and outside of the party.  Those people invalidated the votes of more than half of the party by allowing the rules to be redrafted at the RBC hearing to favor Obama over Clinton.  If we do not, we will continue to allow the party power players to turn a deaf ear to anything the liberal and left side of the political spectrum stands for.  That means there will be more Joe Lieberman’s defying his party’s primary without penalty in 2006.  It means more Arlen Specters rather than Joe Sestaks in PA.  It means more Proposition 8’s in CA, more retreat in the face of the health insurance industry’s demands, more lax standards for the banking industry and more hearbreak for unions. And the primaries of 2008 are only a taste of things to come.  If we let things stand as they are, it won’t be long before the voting machines are rigged as well.  Voting will become a pointless exercise for show.  And when that happens, we as citizens will lose our right of self-determination.  THAT is why examining the primaries is so important.

The left is suffering from a moral sickness.  It wanted an outcome so badly that it was willing to sacrifice its own personality and principles to get it.  That sickness happened through clever psychological manipulation and unethical behavior on the part of the Obama campaign and its backers.  It is deeply rooted in the Democratic Party right now.  That party no longer has a foundation built on the working class.  It no longer stands for social justice.  It serves a new master now.

The left has been torn in half.  Our institutions have been bought off.  Congress doesn’t have to be accountable to us anymore because they were able to keep their seats by undermining us.  And the media, who Big Tent Democrat was content to let have its way, has become stronger than ever because the one candidate who was capable of neutralizing them by virtue of winning in spite of them, was stabbed in the back by her own party. At this point in time, it doesn’t matter if we all share the same values.  We are toothless.

The only way to get back on the right track as a movement is to take a good look at how we got to this spot.  It is going to be painful for many of us.  It requires a sort of Truth and Reconciliation Commission.  Now is not the time for apologies.  Now is the time for unearthing the truth and for reflection.  It is time for us to achieve what the Greeks called sophrosyne.  That is, “moral sanity and from there self control or moderation guided by true self-knowledge”.  In Greek tragedies, the lesson was only cathartic if the protagonist came to this understanding.

What has happened to us has been truly tragic.  But we can’t fix it by pushing it under a rock and moving on.  We need to face it and deal with it so we can stop getting played.

“Let all the worms that lurk in the mud hatch out”


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196 Responses

  1. Personally, I think the damage done was irreparable. They discussed this over at The Left Coaster and my personal opinion is that all the mea culpas in the world aren’t going to fix the behavior that occured. They disrespected and smeared people. It would be ignorant to ever trust them again.

    I’ll work with them(and I do mean them because I no longer want to be considered part fo a group capable of such disgusting behavior)on issues like health care when its in my interest. Otherwise, I really want nothing to do with them. We don’t share the same value system IMO. We share the same goals. How we are willing to get there is MILES APART. Evidently, for them, anything goes. I don’t feel that way. How you play the game is just as important to me as whether you win or lose.

    • It *CANT* be irreparable or we are finished as a nation. We need to find out who was responsible and make sure they don’t get away with it. 2010 is our accountability year. We have the rest of this year to regroup. We MUST.

      • I hate to say this but I believe the appropriate statement is “you can’t fix stupid.” The behavior last year was the height of stupidity.

        There is no way to undue calling a person r@cist or Republican r@tf*cker. There is no way to repair feelings. There was a huge breach of trust a huge lack of respect(and it came from the middle of nowhere for many of us). Will I work with “progressives”? If I have to. Will I trust them? Not a chance. You only get the chance to shiv me once.

        • We can’t reset the clock and undo what was said and done. But reconciliation is about repairing the breach, not erasing the scars.

          • Read your last thread MyIq and tell me that you honestly believe the people you discuss are capable of intellectual honesty?

            They are still pulling the same crap. Its still win at all costs(even if that cost is the truth).

        • Meh, Insults roll off of me. I know they’re not true. It just makes us less effective when we are at each other’s throats.
          But we have to realize that they may not yet know what happened to them. They were/are caught up in a frenzy. They had no mental protection when the powers that be rolled out their crack propaganda. The Obots and other Obama fans are like Moonies. They were in a cult and indulged in cult-like behavior. Deprogramming is not going to be easy. Some of them will snap out of it faster than others. When they come out of it, we have to be here to support them so they don’t backslide or reject us.
          I know it makes you want to vomit. I’m not saying it will be easy. But we have to encourage people to reflect and learn from the experience. We have to resist the urge to seek revenge.

          • I don’t want revenge. I don’t want anything at this point. I’m setting the bar really low. That way there is little to no chance of disappointment.

            I’ll work with them towards similar goals. I won’t compromise my principles to achieve those goals though. It’s fairly apparent many of them were more than willing to not only jettison thier principles but bully others into doing the same.

          • My problem is that I can’t ever rely on them, even if they were to be our allies. They’re so easily duped, so lacking in critical thinking skills and integrity, that I don’t want them in a position of power. Unless we can not only make clear how wrong they were, get them back to work on the right side, AND teach them how to avoid being such credulous morons in future, I don’t see how I could ever rely on them again. What if they see something shiny and run off?

          • While it’s common to write off the Right as dying in America, I’d like to posit that the truth is different. The Right is on it’s back twitching now but will come up for air with a rationale one day sooner than expected. If any side is well and truly dead it’s the Left, who committed suicide over Obama.

            The Left can’t be trusted an inch and is populated with not only very good people like some of those here, but also the scum of the earth tribe from the primaries.

            The only thing important to the scum tribe was to win, and they did. You will be waiting until Hell freezes over for them to change, unless they lose a round. Losing one would be a good catalyst for them to morph into something else. They might even become human beings with human feelings.

          • “My problem is that I can’t ever rely on them, even if they were to be our allies. They’re so easily duped, so lacking in critical thinking skills and integrity, that I don’t want them in a position of power. ”

            I hear people talking about other sites that screwed them over (cheetoh, Kos, big orange, etc). I’ve never been to those sites (I was one of those screwed by the turncoat TM), but they seem to have been “leaders”.

            I’m wondering if the answer is not to “go back” to them, but rather to continue to build up PUMA sites, and let those who have come to their senses come to US. Then they have to fit into our environment of “principles first”, follow our lead, and we wouldn’t be having to depend on “leaders” who turn around and screw us.

        • Delurking to say that as long as women remain the acceptable pinata in politics, the far left and the far right deserve each other.

      • I agree, we MUST For one thing far too many on the left were susceptible to flattery, which left them open to Axelrove. He made them feel special and they fell for it.

        • Oh, Nan, that is the comment of the day. Seriously. The Obots were the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Models with PhDs in Architecture and we were just old, uneducated, working class, sino-peruvian lesbians.
          They have to realize that the DNC is not that into them before we have any chance of getting it together.

    • Maybe if the Kool-aid bloggers actually ADMITTED THAT THEY FUCKED-UP AND APOLOGIZED there could be some reconciliation.

      But they have yet to do either. Even the ones that are detoxing from the Kool-aid still treat us like we did something wrong, when all we did is see (and speak) the truth.

      “No one could have foreseen that Obama was lying!”

      Really? We did.

      • I’m not looking for an apology. I’ll take self-realization, enlightenment, reconciliation. There is nothing they can say at the present time that would make Clinton’s loss easier to bear. They can’t apologize for that. The deed is done and they can’t take it back.
        What they do going forward is what is important to me.

        • I want an apology.

          I’d like to see some penance too, but I’ll settle for the apology.

        • Do you really believe the group that was portrayed in the previous thread is capable of self realization or enlightenment? They don’t appear to be capable of intellectual honesty.

          They are still smearing. The only difference is that now it isn’t Clinton they are doing it to. For them it still isn’t about actual principles, it’s about a D or R after a person’s name. I won’t be part of something like that. Principles matter.

          • To me, they remind me of the same fundies I grew up with who followed a religion because they were convinced that the end of the world was only a year or two away. When Armageddon didn’t happen, the disappointment was crushing.
            Some of the Obots are going to Hope for Change until Obama’s last day in office. But a lot more of them are going to become increasingly disillusioned and realize they were had. If we can get enough of them to come to their senses before the mid-term elections, we might be able to turn things around.
            I *do* think the left is capable of doing this much more quickly than the right. We have to think of ways to do it.

        • Why trust them going forward when we couldn’t begin to trust them going backward? This is a case of the proverbial tiger and its stripes.

        • You’re not going to get that because they weren’t supporting Obama for logical reasons but for emotional ones. They believed he was everything they projected onto his tabula rasa, and until they understand their support was not reality-based at all, the light will never dawn.

          This is why, when I talked to Boehlert for his book, I said the whole bunch of them should be in therapy – and I meant it. It’s when you haven’t integrated all parts of yourself that you’re always projecting positive (Obama) or negative (Clinton) traits onto another.

    • I can’t see me ever working with them again.

      Basically…..

      http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2009/04/turning-of-worm-and-eating-of-crow.html

    • cwaltz: We don’t share the same value system IMO. We share the same goals.

      Exactly. Well said.

  2. that’s exactly what we need to do . they this to us this we do nothing and i grantee you they will do the same next time except it will be worse much worse

  3. Excellent essay.

  4. Wow.

    THIS is the penultimate summary of the betrayals we experienced, at the hands of those who claimed the moral high ground, all while scumming the depths of human behavior.

    Thanks RD, amazing.

  5. For this former Democrat, the apology and reconciliation must take the form of ending the caucus system ensuring one person one vote.
    Nothing less will do.

  6. When the people fear their government, there is tyranny; when the government fears the people, there is liberty.” – Thomas Jefferson

    i think it time we make them fear us again

  7. From Trey, on June 3, at the excellent blog, Daddy Papa and Me:

    “As the opposition is busy destroying itself, he makes small moves with a pawn, a bishop or a knight, and then as the moves are all put into place, it’s too late and checkmate.

    I think yesterday, on DADT (and a few other things), he just put a knight into play.”

    This from the blog of an intelligent, married-in-California, gay couple with an adopted daughter. If even some of the most politically involved are still doing a head number on themselves at this late date, then we still aren’t in agreement.

    • I’ve seen little to nothing that convinces me that the philosophy is no longer “the ends justify the means.”

      • Agree. All they’ve done is create their own “Village” to rival the Beltway MSM. They’re still trying to justify that Democrats are better than Republicans; that Obama is different than Bush. Until they understand that the vast majority of our politicians are totally corrupt, regardless of party, then I don’t see where we find common ground.

    • 11D corn-holing.

      This is “What’s The Matter With Kansas” but played out on the left.

      The right justified whatever Bush did with “he’s a good christian man”.

      The left is doing the same insane embrace with Obama.

      It’s to glaringly transparent that it truly is like watching people that have surrendered themselves to a cult of personality. Blows my mind.

      • Mine, too.

        Sorry, RD. I’m JUST NOT INTO THEM.

        Let em sink on their own.

        • Mary, I agree. This is a matter of trust.

          I am used to work with people I do not like, but I refuse to work with people I do not trust. I learned a thing or two along the way, and this is one. They’ll fuck you sooner or later, and again.

          During the Primaries, the rat#%$@ers were not us but them. We were the rats and they were the f$^$#ers.

          But rats are some of the most intelligent creatures and as the wording goes: F(*&^k me once, shame on you, F((&%k me twice shame on me.

          I ain’t going back for more. Thanks but no thanks. I have left the Dems for good. I am not in exhile, I am gone… Bye, bye.

          For all I care the Dem party can self-implode, self-destruct (and it will if they do not change their ways drastically and make amend humbly) and sunk under the weight of its corruption. Good riddance.

          I am an Independant and I am looking more and more to the Libertarian Party.

  8. it also bery important that we document what happen & who did it & when . because they will try to rewrite history

  9. (Sorry for the double-post, posted this in the wrong place on my first try.)

    Delurking to say that as long as women remain the acceptable pinata in politics, the far left and the far right deserve each other.

  10. In general, as we know, people do not like to admit they were wrong. Until one feels the effects of one’s decisions personally and painfully, one tends to stay deluded.

    My hope is that the effects of the travesties of last year’s primary election continue to be painful enough to eventually whack the so-called “left” into awareness.

    If not RD you are so right, we as a nation are screwed.

    The powers that be have bought the political parties and the left was complicit. My guess is that the patriotic centrist right is more aligned with us on this, which is strange in itself.

    Today Marc Rubin has written a good play by play of the lies O told during the campaign: http://tinyurl.com/mfxfo6

    Perhaps Atrios and his ilk ought to refresh their memories.

  11. Riverdaughter –
    I read that same quote about the primaries and stopped dead in my tracks.
    I made a comment on corrente about it as well.

    The whole post was full of declarations with no arguments to support them.

    Is there an explanation for WHY we shouldn’t discuss the primaries?
    No. They just don’t want to have an honest debate about it. Aren’t liberals
    supposed to be the group capable of empathy? They seem to find lots of empathy for a culture that forces women to wear hejab but won’t pause a moment to consider why so many of us are disillusioned with the Obama movement. They always resort to name calling.

    I like your aspirations for reconciliation. I don’t know how to get there when they won’t budge an inch. Even worse, when they justify almost everything Obama does.

    • In an honest debate they’d lose.

      It should be apparent by now, to this group “winning is everything.”

    • I think it’s a whole rewrite history thing. “Shut up so the nice man can have his legacy” – even if that legacy is manufactured.

      I think we’ve gone way passed manufactured though. It’s been wrapped up, paid for and shipped priority mail.

    • know how we get there . we need to take there power away from some DEMs

      we need to silence the voices of the the ones that had no problem silencing ours.we need to start targeting some Dem’s & reps

      we from active campaigns against vulnerable b DEMs during the midterms . if we can remove them from power they wont try things like what happened on may 31 again & they do. we target a few more of them

    • They are still at the denial stage – it’s a multi-step process and they have to work through it.

      I’m just a frustrated with them as all PUMAs but RD is right – if we cut them out completely we hurt ourselves.

      We need to help them get to the ah ha

      I’m not sure how yet – and Myiq I’m not sure there will ever be an apology as much as we’d like one – that would be too painful for them – particularly those who really believed and weren’t just there for the ride. Because then they’d have to admit that they hurt the one thing they loved more than themselves – their country.

  12. Riverdaughter, this was excellent. I’m going to have to send this out to all of my contacts…

    We aren’t going anywhere and we aren’t getting over anything!

  13. I would suggest we begin by building issues-based coaltions with groups such as LGBT, election/primary/caucus reform, etc. I was involved in grassroots Democratic politics for over 25 years, until I walked away in disgust after the RBC kangaroo court. Only two things matter to pols: campaign donations and winning. Pols work on building their warchests in the off-years. A coordinated refusal to donate money, along with a simple reason why there’s no contribution could be a good way to get their attention.

  14. I’m not sure I believe that the left blogosphere is as aligned on the issues as Atrios says. My sense is that many of the A-listers are really more libertarian than they are liberal (I’d definitely put Kos, Ariana Huffington, Avriosis, etc. in that list), and then there are some who, on some important issues, are more center than left (I’d put Atrios and BTD in that category, for example).

    I’m not saying that there is ever going to be complete agreement on policy, or even that there should be. But pretending away the differences doesn’t seem a very “reality based” thing for Atrios to do.

    • My sense is that many of the A-listers are really more libertarian than they are liberal

      Agree. They follow where the money is . Awhile ago it was the GOP , starting in 04 and on to today, it’s the Dems. Where you see this crowd ( the Koses ,the Arianas , the Avriosis,) go is where the big money is .They are like those little birds that alight on Rinos . The money may stay with the Dems for awhile…until that host is exhausted. These blogger’s principle and their goal is serving the money pot and that’s all. IMO

      • Seven of the biggest Failbots were either Republicans or supported the Iraq War. This is the sad state of Democratic leadership:

        Former Republicans

        Arianna Huffington
        Markos Moulitsas
        John Aravosis
        Andrew Sullivan
        John Cole

        Supported Iraq War (at least at the beginning)

        Markos Moulitsas
        Andrew Sullivan
        Josh Marshall
        Matt Stoller
        Kevin Drum

  15. Brilliant post and one of your classics, RD! I don’t think they’ll ever fess up to their enabling of the Great Pretender. They’re just going to open their pockets for big insurance, big Wall Street and the big military industry and the Benjamins fly. Nothing that we really care about will ever get done.

  16. Thanks for letting me know what Atrios thinks. I feel better knowing that he knows we don’t get along and no words will change my contempt for all those who rabidly attacked Hillary and her supporters. My last visit to his website was around the PA primary. I’ve not missed it.

    • That’s when I left too. The Hillary name calling was unbelievable and that was hardly the worst site, probably because Atrios always had a fair share of women commenters.

  17. Obama has capitulated to the bankers, he’s capitulated to the religious right on gays and women, he’s making no effort to end the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and he’s become a party to torture.-RD

    Yup, … and Newsweek’s Evan Thomas calling him a ‘sort of God’ isn’t going to make any of the above any more palatable.

  18. What a powerful essay, RD! I couldn’t care less about apologies. I hope the cultists wake up, but I won’t ever trust any of them again. Sure I’ll work with them on specific issues, as CWaltz said, but I’m not going to be fooled again into thinking they are true allies.

    • They’re like serial abusers: call you a stoopid racist cunt, and then come running back crying, saying “Can’t we all get along?”

      I don’t think so.

      And any female on this board who suggest we should, needs a good old-fashioned talking-to.

      Uh-uh.

    • I am a firm believer in the doctrine of co-belligerence. I can work with people on specific issues without agreeing with them in general.

  19. It requires a sort of Truth and Reconciliation Commission

    That’s what they successfully did in South Africa – even though it was extremely painfull.

    I absolutely agree, that it is important to keep talking about what happened in the election 2008 – even if you can’t convince the other side of the truth. It’s important to keep the talk alive.

    I know it is on a much bigger scale, but it reminds me of what has happened in Germany. It took the Germans more than 60 years to begin to scrutinize, openly talk about, make movies about and slowly come to terms with, what happened leading up to and during WWll.

    It has lead to Germans, after all these years, finally being allowed to be proud to be Germans, and among other things proudly display their flag. Which was very moving to witness when a couple of years ago they hosted and won the bronze medals in the World Championship in soccer.

    It also took 20 years for the Germans to begin to come to terms with what happened before the wall came down between East and West Germany – because that’s how long it took them to start talking openly about it.

    So – for what it’s worth – I really think it is important to talk, and keep talking and keep repeating. To be able to continue to be proud of your country.

    • And parallels with Jews in the Holocaust. Jews were the only objective ones during the Holocaust while the good Germans and Nazis were deluded. Joe Cannon was right to call the 2008 primary an atrocity.

    • I have no problem talking about it. I just don’t think they should be under the disillusioned opinion that my discourse means they can win me over. They can’t. I’ll keep repeating what happened in 2008 if for no other reason that I do not want them to have the ability to rewrite the history they so desperately wanted and were willing to throw half the party under the bus to get.

  20. Brilliant essay!

    PUMAs are the abused black women in the Black Panther Party. Read my post and all the linked posts and spread this meme. Once you use the word “black” and get the faux anti-racist guilt up and they see the parallels between us and what happened to black women in the CRM they will change.

  21. Riverdaughter is absolutely correct. If we want to get what we want, an honest election, then we will have to work with the rest of Left Blogistan and the other Dems. Nobody said that we have to like them. What is the goal, good honest elections or someone kissing your A$$? I can work with people I don’t like, can you?

    • I’ll work with them when we have similar goals. I intend to be careful though because the old adage”lie down with dogs wake up with fleas” could apply.

  22. There were a lot of good people who, after being bombarded with billions of dollars selling the Obama juggernaut (and the free, positive press should count), fell pray to the massive PR campaign. I know many Obama supporters who were neither rude nor through out charges of racism or engaged in sexism. Many had no clue that Hillary had more popular votes than Obama (after all, WWTSBQ went on for months and months) or the fucked up RBC ruling. Hell, most *Hillary supporters* don’t know that.

    I don’t blame people who were lied to repeatedly by people they trust. I don’t expect my parents or friends to lie to me intentionally. Until last year, I didn’t expect many Dems I admired to lie to me intentionally. Basically, I don’t have a problem with the majority of Obama supporters who were duped, or fell in love with the idea of a black president.

    On the other hand, there were those who deliberately lied and distorted the truth, threw out accusations of racism and assassination plots, engaged in hateful as well as sexist *and* misogynistic behavior. There were also those who accepted that behavior and willingly let it slide since it produced their desired outcome. The progressive blogosphere folks who fit in those two categories should have no more credibility. Nor should they be able to easily regain credibility, IMO. They can apologize all they want, but they won’t regain their credibility for a while.

  23. That bunch of boyz are completely untrustworthy.

    To forget the Primary is to forgive their actions and allow the boyz to do it again and again and again.

    WE are not passive wives who have to take the beatings from our lord and masters.

    The boyz includes the faux feminists who stabbed women in the back — sort of like crabs in a bucket pulling any crab who almost reaches the top DOWN to the bottom.

    I’ve turned my back on the bums — and look elsewhere for leadership. Riverdaughter has proven herself to be a leader — and SHE is who I will follow and believe. But I won’t follow her back to the boyz blogs — I do have my core values.

  24. This is the sort of person, lefty progressives bowed to, and followed devotedly.

    From an article in the NYT 1996:
    “At Lunch with Arianna Huffington; A Phoenix of the Right Rises”

    AN editor’s phone call interrupts the post-deadline languor of Arianna Huffington, striving columnist and firebird of right-wing Republican polemics, at Coco Pazzo, the East Side restaurant, where she is lingering over caffe latte and the dregs of her husband’s failed 1994 race for the Senate.

    “Michael’s money is from the oil business,” she says with a buoyant smile, discussing the breathtaking $28.3 million worth of his family fortune spent on the California campaign. “You have dry wells in that business that are a lot more expensive than the Senate campaign,” she adds with a twinkle of self-satire that only the resiliently rich may appreciate.

    Mrs. Huffington, one of the most ambitious, stylish and freely articulate spirits on the cantankerous Republican right, deftly handles her editor’s questions on her latest syndicated column, then heads out into the silken hustle and rustle of Madison Avenue and back to her temporary writing digs at the Waldorf-Astoria.

    Those are the kind of people who made the working class of America irrelevant.

    Without photo-id and paper trails, voters will never obtain anything from their representatives, who are now even further convinced that money buys power.

    • Too right. The A-list bloggers who hijacked the Dem primary last year were ALL “converted” libertarians and Republicans. The cretins who gleefully followed them are not progressives, liberals, or any other name you want to give them that would imply a connection to the party of FDR. You can call yourself a Martian, but that doesn’t make it so.

      I won’t forgive, and I don’t forget. I thought the horrors of the Bush years were going to be alleviated with last years election, but the burning anger I had been nursing for the past 7 years was as nothing to the rage that swept over me during the Democratic primaries. I still get physically ill whenever I let myself think about it.

      Can’t we all just pretend that teh boyz weren’t really complete a** holes, and play nice together? When hell freezes over.

      • The A-list bloggers who hijacked the Dem primary last year were ALL “converted” libertarians and Republicans. The cretins who gleefully followed them are not progressives, liberals, or any other name you want to give them that would imply a connection to the party of FDR.

        Can’t be denied…however it’s even worse in that those one would consider Dems, laid down to them so completely. But the rot in the Dem party had been building for many years. They increasingly laid down for Reagan /Bush 1 and calmly watched Bill being attacked by the GOP and NEVER backed him. They gave Bush 2 far more support in any two week period than they gave Bill in 8 years. The collapse of the Dem party started years ago…Barry is but the cherry on top.

        • Not to mention that on MSNBC, Arianna AGREED that Sarah Palin’s children were “fair game” since they were on the cover of People Magazine.

          Arianna’s all about Arianna, period.

  25. There are Russ Feingold groupies too but we never hear about them. For some reason, it’s only the Hillary fans who are supposed to forget all about their favorite politician and leave her to fend off the wolves by herself.
    I’ll never regret supporting Hillary Clinton. She was by far the better candidate. And we were certainly right about Obama. If you are trying to make us feel foolish or ashamed of our support, you’re not going to make any fans here. We stuck by her through the worst of last year’s barrage and we endured insults, bannings and name calling on her behalf. If that didn’t do it, nothing will.
    You’re wasting your time.

    • I thought Hillary was by far the best candidate but I never thought she was the ideal candidate.

      If she was POTUS right now I would criticize her if I didn’t agree with what she was doing.

      I think FDR was the best POTUS of the 20th Century but he was wrong about civil rights and segregation. He cheated on his wife too.

  26. I can understand why Obama voters would have a problem with behaving like rock star groupies with a politician. That’s certainly a valid point.

  27. Am I missing something?
    How is a positive post about an appt being a groupie?
    There’s not blind adoration going on over there.
    Is this the level of debate that Obama apologists have been reduced to?

  28. RD:

    Great post.
    I started reading the post being in agreement with Atrios, especially because he was never one of the truly nasty Big Bloggerz. Moreover he finished his post with this:

    But, basically, there really isn’t all that much disagreement about policy… except perhaps over how to clean up after those lovely little wars.

    Reading through your post shows how cleaning “up after those lovely little wars” is sooo much bigger than “there really isn’t that much disagreement about policy”

    He really seems to take the cleaning-up part too lightly.

  29. Great post RD. They maybe sorry about backing Barry now …however they still have raging class issues, fully intact. For many obots the dislike of working class runs deeper than even their Barry love did ….and was a large part of Barry’s appeal. Many can still be depended on to jump like trained dogs over that.

    • Absolutely. Limbaugh in one of his diatribes talked about class-envy. Envy of people with more money is for many of us who are struggling and disenfranchised, a given. What was amazing about this election was the “prole-hatred” emanating from the Democrats. They appeared to be a pack of Republican-wannabes.

      Amazingly, a Republican woman, Sarah Palin, is the only one did not build her campaign around disparaging the working class and actually cathected with working people. What the hell is going on here?

      This was really an excellent post, but the chasm is too wide. It is impossible to share principals with the many Obama supporters who clearly have no principals, or who conveniently rediscover them when things go south.

      • To be fair, Hillary did this too. She really connected with the working class.

  30. a couple of points —

    1) we’re not the problem, they are. People like Duncan are finally coming to realize what we’ve been saying all along about Obama — that he doesn’t represent progressive/liberal Democratic values. We’ve been criticizing Obama from day one, and doing so without equivocation.

    2) What Duncan (and the rest of the ‘finally-getting-a-clue A-listers) wants is for us to start equivocating about Obama to “re-unify the movement”. He’s knows we’re right, but he also knows that the truth is dangerous — at least telling the truth about Obama would be dangerous to Duncan’s A-list status, so the truth that we’ve been telling has to be compromised.

    3) the only way to “fix” things is for the progressive blogosphere to start treating Obama as “the enemy” — unless and until the A-listers recognize that its crucial to establish an entirely separate and distinct “progressive” voice that is constantly critical of Obama, progressives will be marginalized.

    4) the reaction of Digby to the Palin/Letterman controversy shows us how difficult it will be to achieve reconciliation. Even someone as smart and perceptive as Digby still can’t break away from her knee-jerk antipathy toward Palin to recognize that she happens to be right this time.

    • well said

    • I’d just like to stand and applaud this…spot on!

    • Points 1,2, and 4 are all extremely valid.

      However 3,on treating Obama as the enemy, I feel that the process which brought BO to power should be recognised as the enemy.

      Which is the point of RD’s post really.

      • Yes, the process is the #1 problem. If it can’t be dismantled, then the DINO Establishment can just use it for their next choice in 2016.

    • The whole entire lot of them decided on Obama based on persona and now all of a sudden they’ve decided to talk “issues.”

      Isn’t that sweet. It’s a darn shame its a day late and a dollar short.

      I won’t be muddying my persona by wading in the mudpits either. When I see stuff like what they are doing to Palin still I realize they just don’t get the whole human decency thing.

    • My loudest applause in a long time to you Paul. It’s good to read you here. Thanks.

    • Wow. Please come here more often and post. If you have a blog please pass it along. Great points. So glad to see the lurkers coming forward with your amazing insight and opinions.

  31. […] clinging Clintonistas were bitching about caucus fraud, “small donor” myths, and the injustice of rewarding a guy for not competing by gifting him his opponent’s delegates, we were […]

  32. It’s good that someone in the adminstration cares about womens issues. It’s pretty apparent that the guy who went to the ME to defend the hijab(and ignored the fact that they still kill rape victims) is pretty darn clueless.
    How about that conscience clause though? Oh wait he hasn’t gotten around to changing that either.

  33. ” Then he wrote something that shows that he still doesn’t get it:

    ‘There was that primary business, of course, though the less said about the better.’

    {{clearing throat, warming up typing fingers}}….”

    when I read the above, I knew you would flay these idiots alive and I was not disappointed. you outdid yourself, RD, this is the best post ever IMO.

    • And that is because the more that’s said about the primaries, the worse they all look.

      I do give Atrios a little bit of credit, but he had his koolaid-snorting moments too.

  34. Personally, I’ll just stand here and let them come to me….

    I went over to Aravosis’ site to read the comments today….when they finally decided, “well Hillary would have been worse!”…I left.

    If they want reconciliation, they can make reconciliation. It’s not my job to “make up” with them. The Democratic Party is already destroyed. It will have to be built from the ground up, anyway.

  35. Democracy in the U.S. started to unfold for me during the 2000 election. “If we let things stand as they are, it won’t be long before the voting machines are rigged as well. Voting will become a pointless exercise for show. ” Agreed.

    I don’t think we’ve passed the legislation to stop the rigging in the nine years since 2000. We’re still more vulnerable than we need to be. I think that the will of the people has to weigh in on democracy in the Democratic primaries and the general elections too. I’ll work with whoever advocates for democracy.

    One small step: Fair Elections Now Act (S.752, H.R.1826)
    http://www.fairelectionsnow.org/

  36. What an excellent post!!! Money in politics needs to be cleaned up—or at least, someone needs to keep them honest. Personally, I can’t forgive or forget.

    Our side needs a book-really well written with all the primary crap documented. Any good writers out there (RD?) ?

  37. One other comment, then I’ll shut up. Have been mostly lurking lately.

    The officials in the Democratic Party must be replaced. There needs to be some process which holds them accountable when the rules can be so flagrantly violated. That’s the word–we were all violated and out country is paying for it.

    • The first step may be to change how the head is appointed. As I understand it, right now, the person who wins (or cheats to win) the primary is allowed to pick the new DNC head. Actually, last year, if I’m remembering correctly, BO was even allowed to move it to Chicago before he had even won – or else it happened two seconds later, showing it had already been given to him to plan.

      As long as the winner/cheater can pick the DNC head, we don’t have a lot of room to work. I’d love to see caucuses thrown out, but since was able to strong arm people and win them, I doubt he’ll let anyone get rid of them – he needs them for 2012.

  38. I will ally with the Green Party sooner than the oppressive fauxgressives of Obamanation. Their misogyny is just too expansive.

    http://www.gp.org/tenkey.shtml

    I love their platform. It has an emphasis on feminism. Perhaps other liberals with find a home there too.

  39. […] The Confluence: Not so fast with the primaries, Atrios […]

  40. Thank you for this. I have been so enraged today about Obama’s gay bashing legal brief I couldn’t see straight. Atrios and Avarosis and Sullivan and Kos and Huffington ought to hang their empty heads in shame.

    The REAL Democrats left that party on May 31,2008. Obama is a pretender. We on the “values Left” must not “get along” with the likes of Atrios until they come to understand, own, and apologize for their vile propaganda last year.

  41. Someone needs to tell “thebigotedasshat” that if you count ALL the primaries AND the estimated caucus votes that HILLARY WON

  42. I remember when the fauxgressives/obots swarmed in to TL after the gates were officially opened there. There were some unrelated legal posts and the bloggers were stunned and surprised that most of the new swarm were pro capital punishment and really quite heartless when it came to defendant rights, constitutional issues, etc. I think what has become apparent is that not only were many of the obot bloggers former republicans, but I think many of the obots that swarmed around them really have some of those same philosophies at their core. And when I say republican there, I don’t mean reasonable people that are just fiscally conservative, I mean the heartless bastard types that are typified by the bushies. In other words, not only is Obama = Bush III, but his core followers/worshipers are = Bush followers. The same core values, the same tactics, the same.

    Given that, it’s hard to reconcile with those folks. We can in the very same way we can work with Bush followers. They are Americans, and we need to work together in some ways. And even can on some issues. But I think many many issues will be impossible because they just don’t have the same goals. It’s not by accident that they are often bigoted towards women. That’s their character.

  43. I’m here, I’m amused. Add Florida in full. Add Michigan in full. Still Hillary even according to those counts falls 18 delegates short. The Super Delegates went with the candidate who won the most elected Delegates, something Hillary and Barack called for.

    BTW – No apology from me. I was there in New Hampshire and in Iowa. Barack Obama ran the better campaign.

    • Hillary won the popular vote. What do you base your claim that Obama won the most pledged delegates on?

      Don’t you feel weird as a gay man defending Obama’s defense of DOMA?

    • Did you observe Obama’s brilliance before or after you saw Cinie at the airport? Are you sure it wasn’t “them Jews”?

      • Seriously, let us stick to the subject being debated. You may consider me an “Obot”, but the level of hate I got from Hillary supporters and the level of hate that is still expressed towards Obama supporters from groups like PUMA would lead you to the conclusion that yes, a PUMA supporter would go and do something mad.

        I refer you to some of the posters on PUMA PAC and NoQuarter. I note that you no longer link to NoQuarter, but I do wonder why you link to PUMA PAC. Especially after you have written some relatively reasonable posts about what is happening in the Middle East.

        • You post hate screeds about total strangers and you dare accuse us of being haters?

        • ExCUUUUSe ME! We are NOT NoQuarter. We do not indulge in conspiracy theories, birther nonsense or character assassination. We don’t have to. The truth is stranger and sadder than fiction. We have accused Obama of being an opportunist and his supporters of being incredibly naive and stupid. That much is true. But do not lump us in with other sites who claim to be PUMA. There is only one other PUMA site I have ever officially endorsed and that is Darragh Murphy’s PUMAPac. The others have their own agendas.

          • I point to the PUMA PAC “Islam Sucks” campaign, her lack of FEC papers, the fact that she never donated to Hillary Clinton or the Democratic Party and I ask why do you endorse Darragh Murphy?

          • RD, one of those days, you and I are gonna have a serious discussion about the eligibility issue…

    • I was helping disabled and elderly trying to vote in caucuses in Texas, I witness FRAUD out the wazoooooo

    • What you seem to have conveniently overlooked is that Obama got all of the uncommitted delegates from MI, some of Edwards delegates and 4 delegates from Hillary that were reassigned. Pretty good for a guy that wasn’t even on the ballot.
      Now, let’s go back and remove those delegates from Obama’s “win” pile. Ooops! Instead of “winning” by 17 delegates, he loses by 50 or more.
      This should never been allowed to happen. He was carried across the finish line. The DNC wanted him to win so they conveniently changed the rules so that a stupid political move of removing his name from the ballot counted against his opponent.
      What other game has rules like this? Calvinball?

    • I should point out that PUMAs were all for allowing the contested states to re-do their primaries if necessary. It was the Obots who thought that would be totally unfair. More unfair than taking a bunch of votes that never had Obama’s name on them and some that actually DID have Hillary’s? That’s some funny algebra to me.

  44. This depends on how you count the “popular vote”, however the Primary race is not a popular vote race it is a delegate race (again something Hillary highlighted at the start of the campaign). After Super Tuesday, Hillary had however lost that race.

    With regards to DOMA, I have argued that on Queerty and my own blog. If as President, a bill is put before Barack Obama to repeal DOMA and DADT and he does not sign it I will donate $10,000 to any cause of your choice (with the exception of Darragh Murphy).

    • Can you link to your blog? Sounds interesting.

    • I count the popular vote under the “one person – one vote” rule.

      What standard do you use?

      How do you assert that Hillary lost the pledged delegate race after Super Tuesday while saying that Obama only won by 18 pledged delegates 4 months later?

      I’m not agreeing with your assertions, I’m just pointing out that they are inconsistent.

      As for DOMA, your defining standard is whether Obama signs a bill repealing it or not? Why do you expect so little of him?

      • I suspect that the point here is that he got more delegates- including super delegates. Which is a whole other kettle of fraudulent fucking fish.

    • Hillary ended up with 17 fewer delegates than Obama. And? The only significance of the delegate count. If that threshold is not reached by either candidate, all bets are off. Knowing you, you probably think democracy is a form of bigotry, but regardless, there’s no super sektit rule that says, “The long standing procedures only apply to dudes. If gross girl parts are nosin around then that one time it actually matters. Or not, if she’s got more we won’t have delegates, Who cares, just bag all the rules and get her out of there//no bitc hes!” sad, but true.

      • The only significance of the delegate count is passing the threshold needed, that’s supposed to say.

    • Again, Hillary won the delegate count. She was stripped of 4 of her delegates and Obama was awarded uncommitted delegates that he didn’t earn. That is how he ended up 17 delegates ahead instead of 50 delegates behind.
      The popular vote simply reinforces Clinton’s win but takes nothing away from the fact that Obama got to the finish line by getting a gift of nearly 60 delegates he wasn’t entitled to.
      Repeat after me: Michigan, Michigan, Michigan.
      Now, if you can come up with a good reason why he should have gotten the delegates from Michigan without actually having to, you know, put his name on the ballot there, you can tell us now. Otherwise, you’re wasting your time.
      In the past, when candidates didn’t run in a state, they didn’t get the delegates. In 2008, we made an exception for only one person and in doing so, we completely invalidated every vote for Hillary Clinton.
      You can argue this point five ways til Sunday but this is an argument you can not win.
      He didn’t earn those delegates. They weren’t his. Some of them were Hillary’s. It was a giant haka and you fell for it. Now he’s the president for 3.5 more years. We are all totally screwed.
      Thanks for nothing.

    • But wait! There’s more!
      I was in Denver at PUMA HQ last year. We had many, many delegates drop by who begged us to get the word out to the news media that they were being harrassed and abused to change their votes. Some of them were threatened with job losses. Some were taken into their hotel rooms and high pressure tactics were used. Some were screamed at in the lobbies of their hotel rooms.
      The vote was by secret ballot at 10 am on the day of the floor vote. The delegates were told that the vote wouldn’t be final until 4Pm that afternoon. Some of the Edwards delegates cast their first votes for Edwards to fulfill their committment to him. In the afternoon, they approached their state delegation heads and said they wanted to switch to Clinton. They were told they weren’t allowed to. This was after Clinton released her delegates. Voting was abruptly halted early in the afternoon to prevent vote switching.
      The whole thing was staged to give the desired result. None of it was real.
      Now, you may argue that the party is a private entity and can change its rules whenever it wants. But state legislatures authorize the primaries and taxpayers pay for them. The primaries are for the highest office in the land. We have a reasonable expectation that they will be carried out in good faith. Or are you going to tell me it is OK to be assholes to the voters? It’s OK by you that NJ, a state that Hillary Clinton won by 10 points, didn’t allow even one delegate to vote for her? *I* voted in that primary. I phone banked for her. I canvassed in PA for her. She won those states but didn’t get a single delegate on the floor. Why? Tell me why.
      Come on. I’m waiting to hear a really good, logical explanation as to why a woman who was supposedly going to lose anyway due to a rigged MI delegate apportionment wasn’t entitled to get the rest of the delegates that she earned.
      I’ll tell you why. It’s because the American people would have seen how close the vote actually was and the last thing the players wanted was a floor fight, which she richly deserved. The powers that be wanted Unity even if they had to fake it.
      There will never, never be unity until you idiots see what you have done to the party.

      • The powers that be wanted Unity even if they had to fake it.

        You can not tell me if the boot had been on the other foot that the Hillary campaign would not have wanted the same. The Convention itself is a show piece for the election. Those who wanted otherwise wanted the Party to lose. The people demanding it could not get one of the opposing Candidates to even sign up for a floor fight.

        In a year that the Republican Party broke the economy for years to come, did you really want a factional floor fight? If you did, it shames me.

        • Here’s the flaw in your argument: you are arriving at a conclusion based on missing data points. From my interactions with the Clinton campaign, I have every reason to believe that she would have done the right thing.
          There are people who play the game as if there can only be one winner and everyone else must die, die, die! and there are people who play as fairly as possible because they believe that a win isn’t a win unless everyone is on board. The Clinton’s are the latter. They do their homework, they work hard, they don’t cut corners. They’re not perfect but I trust them based on past performance and everything that happened since the nomination and election.
          YOU put all your faith in a completely untested neophyte who managed to skirt every controversial issue that came his way. There was nothing to pin on Obama, therefore, you could fill in the blanks of his missing record with whatever fantasy your immature imagination could conjure.
          Did I want a floor fight? Um, yes. What’s wrong with hashing it out? At the end of it, you would have had *true* unity. And if it meant we would have gotten the better candidate with Obama as her VP, hell, yes, I would have preferred it. It’s only the fevered imaginations of the Obots and DNC power players who thought a floor fight was a bad idea. They were afraid Obama would lose. And he very well might have. But you are dead wrong if you think the regular Joe Bagodonuts would have been disappointed to see a fight to the death with Hillary triumphant. She was the scrappy underdog and as the primaries wore on, people started to realize how good she was. That’s why she was winning primaries up to the very last day even after the RBC nailed the lid on her coffin.
          But who are YOU to tell me what I might have preferred? It wasn’t your decision to make for me. It was my vote. I gave it to her and I wanted it to count. If that meant a floor fight, she should have had one. It would have shown how serious we were as a party. If FDR could sit through 4 floor votes, why not Obama?
          He’s a loser, that’s why. He needed to cheat.
          She didn’t.

        • “The Convention itself is a show piece for the election.”
          And democracy is a party game. Or it is when you’re willing to screw over voters left and right just so you can have the good PR of Party Unity. What a steaming puddle of donkey dung.

  45. Hey, stop squishing the small minds and join the revolution … it’s being twittered!!!!!

    • Who let him out of his cage??

      • Me. He didn’t say anything abusive here yet and I let him out. I’ll leave him alone next time. Besides, you’re missing history!! You have to see how much the main stream media is MISSING a HUGE story!!!

      • Besides, he’s said outrageous over the top untrue things about me based on stuff he reads in between the lines. I’m not threatened.

    • Something I was happy to post to the BBC Dakinkat. Currently Mousavi is under house arrest. The riots in his favour are continuing and if anything are getting stronger. The main difficulty Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has with his attempt to steal this election is that the Ayatollah had made clear that he was not against change.

  46. MyIQ, I should hope that you let this link go through, which is a response to what I considered to be PUMA revisionism of the Primaries.

    http://thebigotbasher.wordpress.com/2009/06/04/puma-a-year-of-bitterness/

    This should further debate and understanding, as to where “Obots” come from. (I do actually like that name).

    With regard to pledged delegates Barack Obama secured an massive lead of pledged delegates which became mathematically impossible to beat after the 9 races that followed.

    It was then, that Obama supporters watched Mark Penn create yes a monster Hillary. Not one I had known and supported during the Primaries. Everything was thrown at him to not win the pledged delegates, but to win the Super Delegates, who were moving from her faster than McCain was moving from Bush.

    I consider that end of the Hillary campaign to have been absolutely disgraceful. If anyone else had ran a campaign like that, they would have been expelled. The Clinton name does however still carry power – more power than the Kennedy name (as Caroline found out).

    • Be careful what you wish for.

      • To add to that last remark, I understand election strategy from a local and national basis. I do not blame Hillary Clinton for the campaign that was run in those last few months of the Primaries. It is a strategy advisors give you, you follow as they charge quite a bit on the basis that tehy are supposed to know WTF they are talking about.

        I would however never want to see one of her Senior Campaign Managers run a campaign on behalf of the Democratic Party ever again. On the converse of that, I am thoroughly disappointed with the treatment of Howard Dean, even though you may think he got his just deserts.

        • I do not blame Hillary Clinton for the campaign that was run in those last few months of the Primaries.

          What could you possibly blame her for?

          Winning?

          • Not telling the trailer trash rednecks of WV that they owe Obama their votes and that calling voters to tell them the election’s been cancelled is a legitimate tactic?

          • She did not win. She lost the pledged delegate race, the Super Delegates, of which she started with a big lead, then went with the winner of the Campaign.

          • Seriously, I do not refer to people living in traile parks as trailer trash. You may find a very angry post about people who voted for actual NAZIS in the UK on my blog but that is because I come from there.

            It does sadden me that very often the poorest people in Society are easily neglected by Politicians (including Bill) and as a result rebel by voting for and supporting groups and Parties that do not serve their interests.

            And yes, in the context it was meant, I fully understand and support the bitter gun clinging comments as should any progressive.

          • In the context in which it was meant? I believe the Messiah was trying to find excuses for his poor performance (try your lack of record) and presmptively blaming it on a stereotype of Americans who reject him when it’s so obvious tgere is no reason to do so save his oft referred to funny name. And don’t give me Americans are stupid and bigoted, they voted for Bush. They voted for Bush because Democrats fail to present alternatives and insult their intelligence. Obama’s voters are so quick to absolve themselves of responsibility and make excuses, and so quick to indict everyone else based on nothing.

          • And I just want to add, I have never visited your blog, I don’t know who you are except for the Cinie and them Jews thing, my disagreement with you does not mean I am pro Nazi, just to be clear.

          • And one last thing, the context in which it was given was a fundraiser in Pacific Heights, where the wealthiest people in America were happy to laugh disgustedly at trailer trash and pat themselves on the back–and the next day go off to their offices as bank president and redline merrily away. It’s amazing that things are so bad when the trailer trash has so little power. They don’t run things, and yet reactionary ideas are in ascendance–but they couldn’t just couldn’t be coming from the enlightened elite!

          • LOL

    • Okay -I posted your comment. Now it’s my turn:

      1. Please explain what Obama has actually done to deserve your loyalty and support.

      2. We oppose racism. sexism and homophobia. Why do you call us bigots while supporting a man who is (at best) only 1 for 3?

      3. How do you justify calling us (The Confluence) racists?

    • And while he was amassing a massive lead in pledged delegates, Clinton was amassing a massive pile of blue M&M’s. Of equal significance.

      God how often do you have to repeat your talking points before you start to believe them? He didn’t have enough to win. How pretty and well dressed they are or whatever you’re on about is irrelevant beside that rather key fact.

      Her behavior was disgusting, though. She stood there existing all gross “down there” and continued to win state after state and vote without trying, making the world’s most wonderful candidate look like a fool spending millions of dollars with no return. Shame on her.

  47. 1) I have acted as a group whip, I believe the winning Candidate deserves the loyalty of the Party that elected him / her. You will note that I am increasingly annoyed with Harry Reid for his failure to deliver that agenda through the Senate. Again, evern though for factional reasons you may dislike her, during this term Nancy Pelosi has been very progressive with the agenda that she has delivered through the House.

    Ever since being a poor oiky from Boston who moved to London (courtesy of mum) who made good and then not good, (life and stuff sucks sometimes), I have been a supporter of the Democratic Party. I get really annoyed at Democrats who stand on a Presidential ticket and then screw it up. (I’m not really a fan of blue dawgs).

    2) I have said that the Confluence is far more evolved than PUMA PAC, if you are not racists, why link to some one who is? However am I to exclude various conflucians blaming everything on some giant ACORN monster or even Rev Wright?

    With regard to sexism, did that really apply to Caroline Kennedy?

    With regard to homophobia, I do not remember a homophobic topic of yours, so I will not suggest you are homophobic. If some posters have been I disregard that because I do not hold you totally to blame for your posters.

    3) I am not sure I have called the Confluence racists. I have been utterly amazed that you seem to want to wake up every day to find a new thing to hate about the President and I wonder where some of your supporters would have stood if Hillary had won. I question linking to and supporting PUMA PAC is enough to call any anti racism credentials in to question. Your recent article blaming the President for the non prosecution of the New Black Panthers raises eye brows. However those factors place you no where near to the views expressed on PUMA PAC.

    Again I do wonder where you would have stood towards supporters of Barack Obama if as a result of a few lost states and a different outcome at the RBC meeting, the Primary election was “handed” to Hillary. I expect you would have been demanding loyalty and calling Obama supporters sexist for not delivering.

    • you do realize your talking to yourself at the moment?

      • I posted that reply ages ago Dak, it took your admin a while to release it.

        • the only one watching the button is me at the moment … and I’m up on the live blogging thread because it’s mine and I’m watching twitter and following links at the same time.

    • and i am utterly amazed that you wakeup everyday to find a new thing to hate about pumas of all kinds. and i am amazed that you and your hateful anti puma friends sit there and obsess over pumas, pick apart their comments word by word and twist them and call them vile names. and further, i am amazed that there is someone out there who is as stupid and ignorant as you that you feel the need to attack, threat and stalk people who express their 1st amendment rights!

    • You lose. Nobody owns anyone’s vote. Are Obama Failbots sexist? Yes, that’s what drove me from AnybodyButHillary to Hillary. Are they hypocrites, after Years of trying to blackmail everyone into voting for anyone with a D after his (his his) name no matter what? Hell yeah. But nobody owns anyone else’s vote and it’s up to the candidate to earn votes, they’re not owed.

      She wouldn’t have needed them, but even if she had my answer would be the same.

      • How are Obama supporters “failbots”? We won. You did not. Nor did your PAC, in fact you let it be taken over by some one with a very questionable background.

        http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?_29030034884+0

        http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?_28039962843+0

        http://query.nictusa.com/cgi-bin/fecimg/?_28039912048+0

        The Confluence has some questionable posters, but I do not hold them to blame for that (Dak is allowing me to post), the PAC is incredibly racist and if I had donated to it, or endorsed it, I would love to know where my money went.

        • Obama supporters are Failbots because they failed in their judgment of the candidates available.

          They got pwned by a conservative DINO who was beholden to Wall Street and the other corporatists.

          They destroyed the Democratic party for nothing.

          What do those links have to do with us? We aren’t PumaPAC and they aren’t us.

        • Yep. You won. And CONGRATULATIONS! Your prize is a big smelly turd running the country for four years! I hope you enjoy it.

          It’s very easy to wake up and find a new thing to hate about BO every morning when he can’t go even a day without saying or doing something appalling. It must be very difficult to completely ignore his (not inconsiderable) failings, considering how bloody apparent they are to anyone paying any attention or having any actual liberal values whatsoever.

    • Again I do wonder where you would have stood towards supporters of Barack Obama if as a result of a few lost states and a different outcome at the RBC meeting, the Primary election was “handed” to Hillary. I expect you would have been demanding loyalty and calling Obama supporters sexist for not delivering.

      So you are admitting that the election was handed to Obama 🙂 Good for you. That is the first step in the 12 step “get-off-the-kool-aid” program.
      I am guessing you were too drunk on Obama in May, to have noticed that Hillary had no problem having a do over in Michigan. Obama refused everything that was suggested. He only wanted the delegates given to him. How do you justify him receiving 4 of Hillary’s delegates? What about getting delegates when he wasn’t even on a ballot. You can try in whatever way you can but the truth can’t be denied. He did not win, he stole the election. Get used to that fact.

      • The race was always a delegate race and the Candidate that had the highest number of pledged delegates was going to be given the leg up to obtain the requiste number of total delegates.

        For those saying Barack Obama should never have been given any of the Michigan votes, but who want to ignore the 4 States Pledge, what should have happened to the votes of those Michigan residents who went out to specifically vote against Hillary by voting “uncommitted”? Forty odd percent of those who turned out on that very cold day?

        You will also note that the Republican Party imposed a similar punishment on Florida and Michigan. I never heard Romney supporters demanding a change in the rules mid game. What makes the campaign of Hillary Clinton so special and more specifically can you hand on heart say that if the results had been reversed in Florida and Michigan, that Clinton supporters would have been jumping up and down for their votes to count?

        I certainly know her S/Ds would not have done as they are the ones who imposed it. Not the men you love to hate Howard Dean or Barack Obama.

        • The 4 States Pledge wasn’t binding on the voters – the candidates have no right or authority to disenfranchise the people.

          The uncommitted votes in MI should have translated into uncommitted delegates at the DNC convention.

          But NOWHERE in the rules was the RBC permitted to take some of Hillary’s delegates and give them to Obama.

          If the results had been reversed I would have made the same arguments. Principles are meaningless if abandon them whenever they don’t help your cause.

        • I am still waiting for that justification of taking 4 of Hillary’s delegates and giving them to Obama. In which universe do you think it is fair? As myiq2xu stated, the uncommitted delegates should have stayed uncommitted. I think that is actually part of the DNC rules. They would have been fought over by Hillary and Obama at the convention.


          I never heard Romney supporters demanding a change in the rules mid game. What makes the campaign of Hillary Clinton so special and more specifically can you hand on heart say that if the results had been reversed in Florida and Michigan, that Clinton supporters would have been jumping up and down for their votes to count?

          If Obama had won them like Hillary did, of course her supporters would have. Please do not mistake Hillary’s supporters for Obamas. Just because you and the rest of Obama’s supporters don’t believe in fair play does not mean everyone else doesn’t. If he had won them like Hillary, we would have been fine with it. The problem is that he didn’t and it is clearly you know that but are just trying to justify the theft.

          BTW the only ones changing the rules in the mid game were the DNC, RBC and the Obama campaign. Since when did it become right to demand that a person get out of the race before it ended? Which rules were Hillary and her supporters breaking by demanding to finish the race and get awarded the delegates that she rightly deserved?

        • The race was always a delegate race and the Candidate that had the highest number of pledged delegates was going to be given the leg up to obtain the requiste number of total delegates.

          Stealing delegates that don’t belong to you is theft. It is not being given a leg up. If Obama was so clearly the winner, then why would he need the leg up? All I remember from Obama supporters then, was how he had already won even though he was being beaten in state after state. So why did he need a leg up? Why steal delegates to get that leg up?

    • Funny that – sexism to Caroline Kennedy….Her highness, the niece, you mean? Thanks to my good governor I have an excellent Senator – a woman too. I shall vote for both in the upcoming elections.

  48. no wonder why the confluence is in fights with so many other blogs… i think i’ll start reading no quarter – atleast they don’t discriminate against certain pumas and scrub posts

    • I’m sorry, I’m the only one on the button and this is an old thread … it’s taking me awhile to let people out …you’re out!

    • We absolutely do not post or comment on the birth certificate stuff and do not engage in character assassination of any kind. Not every group out there who calls itself PUMA is on the up and up. That doesn’t mean we discriminate or have anything against NQ. It’s just that their commentary is not our cup of tea. If it’s yours, don’t let us stop you.

      • As I said up thread, RD. You and I, one of those day, serious discussion about the eligibility issue

        • I don’t make the rules about PUMA. There *are* no rules about PUMA. That’s part of the problem.
          But, no, there are too many people at NQ who indulge in non-productive conspiracy stuff. It’s not our thing. They can have that corner of the blogosphere. Personally, I think it makes them less credible as a site but whatever floats your boat.

  49. I would JUST LIKE TO reiterate the RULES here at THE CONFLUENCE.

    We feel it is important to discuss issues in an environment where people will NOT feel attacked. Please refrain from name calling. That does not further any one’s cause.

    I’m going to close this thread because I’m having a hard time babysitting this and watching a revolution unfold.

    Check back in the morning, however, because one of the other Admins might be more accommodating after a few cups of coffee!!!

    Thank you!

  50. “no wonder why the confluence is in fights with so many other blogs”

    My report cards always said “Doesn’t play well with others”

  51. Kudos to RD, myiq2xu and Seriously for debating the visitor in such a civil manner! I think I blew a few fuses just reading, but you all seemed to keep your cool!

    I’m in awe! (For what it’s worth. 😕 )

  52. As the penny drops for more and more Obama fans (see Bill Maher for the latest example) you’d think that would be an opening for healing the Democratic wounds of last year, but instead it is clear that those of us who saw through Obama from the start are being relagated to the role of being “prematurely anti-Obama.”

  53. I just have to go check the moon phase … today is getting stranger and stranger

  54. No elections, no democracy. No Justice, no peace. i have no common goals with election thieves. Period.

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