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Dakinikat brought this to my attention in the comments but I think it deserves front page attention:

“I suppose that I should take a moment to congratulate the consummate professionals at the Daily Konfluence for invoking me once again, attributing rabid falsehoods and mischaracterizations about myself and my compatriots, and for once again hosting the most historically inaccurate and obtuse conversation on Israel that can be found outside of rense.com. They’ve been making a variety of attempts to engage us in a blog war since there isn’t anything going on more pressing, like the end of our Constitutional Republic as we know it. If y’all would just use a little Boudreaux’s Butt Paste that rash would clear up and you might act less petty and pathetic. Personally I think Riverdaughter may have the cyberhots for me. Why else would she keep mentioning my name? Honey, please contain your pining to the fjords. Your overtures, while flattering, are not appreciated, and are just plain creepy.


The United States, in its typical ignorance of the functionings of the Middle East, seems to think that it can blackmail Israel by sending the message that there will be no help on the Iran nukes front until Israel consents to a Palestinian state with a divided Jerusalem. [the folks at the Konfluence don’t seem to realize that utilizing this kind of blackmail to dictate the policy of a sovereign nation is the same neocon tactics used by George W. Shrub, but they don’t care as long as they get the results they want; a Palestinian State led by its current terror kleptocracy which means a fucked Israel. So let us now refer to the Daily Konfluence as a neokon blog as no self- respecting liberal would ever endorse neocon strategy…unless they were a bunch of fucking hypocrites. Well, you know what they say, if the shoe fits jam it.]

There’s more – a lot more.  I strongly urge you to go read all of it and verify that I did not misquote, mischaracterize or attribute any falsehoods about the essay or its author, a former front-pager here at The Confluence named Shtuey.  And while you’re there please take note of this comment by MadamaB, another former TC front-pager:

madamab said…

This post is a clear demonstration of your total ignorance of the most basic facts of the Israel-Palestine situation. As we all know, the Holocaust had nothing whatsoever to do with Israel. And all Jews are racists. F*ck them. You are nothing but an AIPAC mouthpiece, Shtuey Van Shtuey!! Holocaust, Holocaust Holocaust!

😉 😉

I sure hope there’s some chocolate in my goody bag. That was emotionally draining! Seriously, great, great post.

April 22, 2009 1:54 PM

Some of you may not you may not know but neoconservatism is strongly pro-Israel and many neocon leaders are Jewish.  Irving Kristol, the “godfather of neoconservatism” is Jewish, as is his neocon son William KristolNorman Podhoretz, another leader of the neoconservative movement, is Jewish too.  Former Deputy Secretary of State Paul Wolfowitz is another Jewish neoconservative.  While not all neoconservatives are Jewish, the movement is consistently pro-Israel.  In fact, critics of neoconservatism have been accused of (wait for it) antisemitism.

A lot of things have been said about those of us remaining here at The Confluence.  I’ll let you form your own judgments about the statements quoted above and their authors.  Please consider their words and actions as well as ours, then make up your own minds.  If our former associates turned critics are correct and the most ardently pro-Israel political movement in the United States is antisemitic, what’s that make the rest of us?


An edited version of Shtuey’s post appears here

301 Responses

  1. Charming.

    • Isn’t it though?

      • Wow. I’ve been very busy so I visit but haven’t commented lately. It’s very sad to see former posters of the Confluence act this way and accuse people who remain here of r@cism and antisemitism. Just because we have a more open minded viewpoint here and consider arguments from both sides doesn’t mean everyone here is anti-Israel. The people you’ve quoted in this post seem to be extremists who use similar tactics they condemned last year from the Obama campaign and supporters whenever they were confronted with dissent. Sad to see people be so closed-minded.

      • Am always late to te conversation. Sorry
        What could possibly have to happen to bring peace to the region?

        Would a South African style Truth and Reconciliation commission not be enough?

    • I’m not sure I understand how the whole chism started, but as a fan of The Confluence I feel y’all are wasting your time with them now.

      TC is WAY too big and successful to put those guys and their remarks up front and write about them so constantly. I’m sure there are hurt feelings on both sides, but you (we) need to be bigger than them. I come here to learn about what’s happening in the world of politics and how PUMA can be strengthened – I come here to read the wonderful perspectives you share – NOT to know what half-brained posters on OTHER blogs are saying.

      Please, please, please stop reading them and their comments if they’re so stupid (I dont doubt that they are!). By repeating them, you’re making the comments into soundbytes – and by citing them, you’re making them bigger adversaries than they can ever be.

      • Good point.

      • It would have been nice to do it that way, and we tried. But many commenters demanded explanations. We have done the best we could. We are only human beings, and sometimes people reach the end of their rope. You don’t need to read it, but some people wanted to know the basis for this unfortunate situation. We can’t please everyone. But your concerns have been noted.

        • 🙂 thanks…I’m not looking to be ‘pleased’, though. I just have the greatest respect for this blog and for RD and all of you…I think the founders of PUMA can do great things and it’s important that you constantly think big and long-term….

          • Thanks for saying what I have been thinking for the last few weeks in the kindest way possible Chevalier.

  2. Anyone who follows your first link and then who then tries to follow the link labeled “The Confluence” from that sight should be sure to have a barf bag handy.

    The person who came up with THAT little joke is a very sick man.

  3. Evidently, rationality is overrated. 2+2 now equals 5 and if you say otherwise than you are a racist AND an anti semite. Nevermind evidence to the contrary, evidence is overrated as well.

  4. Not only is Shtuey potty mouthed, but he sounds a bit bloodthirsty for my tastes. From the link in the update:

    “Israel does not need the United States’ approval to bomb the mother loving crap out of Iran. Israel does not need access to Iraqi airspace to bomb the mother loving crap out of Iran.”

  5. I seriously misjudged some people if they are really fans of this. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas.

    • I find much of this falling away and falling out pretty inexplicable. But then there’s always control issues…

    • Last time I checked that raging anti-semite Joseph Cannon wasn’t advocating bombing the crap out of anyone.

      • There are people whose bombing would not make me weep. People who talk during movies, for example. On the other hand, bombing them might disturb the other patrons.

        • I think waterboarding would be far more appropriate, at least on a first offense.

          But I’m a big believer in rehabilitation.

        • I like the elderly talkers. The ones who can’t hear and drive the mean bratty Obots into rages and much louder, more aggressive obnoxious shushing than the actual talking. Hello, they can’t HEAR you shushing them, dumbasses!

  6. WTF? The invective is so out of proportion to anything I’ve ever seen written by any of you guys. In fact, I couldn’t in my wildest dreams twist it enough to generate that much anger.

    I like all the people involved a lot and am just gobsmacked.

  7. *stunned*
    I don’t believe it.

    • Well, this is what caused me to go off this morning, I have to admit. I didn’t initially link to it but then put it in the comments later. After all that’s been happening and every one’s questions, and what seems to be a backdoor discussion from others, it just put me over the top. I thought it was sick sick sick!

      • Also, I’m tired of being privy to emails that are really awful and horrible attacks on people while the same folks that sent the emails act all aggrieved.

        I just want us all to be able to post here on things we care about and move forward. I’m tired of this.

        • Personally, I’m glad you guys are explaining things. I knew who was missing from The C but I didn’t know the why behind it and am now very happy that I stayed here.

  8. I won’t comment on this any further because I still feel close to MadamaB.
    I’m sorry that this happened.

    • We all are Little I.

      • This all started because there were disagreements about the I/P situation and how to make progress in the region. Somehow, that has degenerated into attacks calling TC a Nazi haven and pix of…there is no excuse for that. Especially for us–it is explicitly reminiscent of the primaries, Obot insanity, and impulsive charges of rac*sm. It’s incomprehensible that PUMAs could resort to this.

        I’ve had enough of this for one day. I want to focus on what’s best about this blog and the people. There is so much to appreciate.

        Nite all.

  9. There’s also a specific comment on that thread (I followed Dakinikat’s post earlier to find the author–needless to say, I will not be going back) that refers to a certain clown…can’t imagine who they are referring to. Anybody know any clowns around here?

  10. No more posts about this please. My loyalty is sworn to the Confluence.
    *tries not to cry*
    Just pretend you are like my parents, getting divorced, and you won’t talk bad about your former spouse.

    • (((((Little I)))))

    • This is the bitter end as far as I’m concerned. I’m tired of worrying about bullies.

      • I agree–I think we need to put it to bed and delete those emails. If anyone wants to reconcile down the line, that’s up to individuals. Let’s put our energies to the best use, instead of responding to this venom–and he accuses RD of trying to perpetuate a “blog war.”

      • Me too – I don’t want to talk about this anymore – I’d like to get back to nice, neat, clean American politics
        and where we are going as PUMAs

        These folks are supposed to be Americans – cheeeesh 😥

    • Sorry LI, but divorce isn’t easy on the parents either.

    • Personally I would like to see more posts on this. I know it is painful for the people involved because it involved personal friendships, but it also involves policy and that is very much the territory of the Confluence. You would not believe how much influence the U.S. has over the Middle East and how much U.S. politics can make themselves felt over there. My students’ families over there were suffering so much.

      Right now I have a compartmentalized shoulder that hurts me to move it even a little bit. The cure is to move it more and more until I can get full range of motion in my arm. In order to get there I have to work through the pain, little by little. This P/I discussion is the same way. It may be painful to get to the issues, but there can be no peace in the Middle East until we CAN get to the issues. Maybe the anger and the name-calling and just letting people dump is something that has to be worked through in order to get people to calm down enough to talk.

      • It’s just that I/P isn’t the focus of this blog, nor do we want it to be. If that had been what we wanted, this would be a completely different blog and puma wouldn’t have been born here.

    • LI, don’t worry about it, you don’t have to get involved. Good people often do weird things, you don’t have to take sides or make judgments of any kind. We all love you!

  11. comment in moderation–I think I know which word triggered it. Your call.

  12. Okay! I will fix it! You wait! Little Isis came to the Confluence to fix things up! It’s just what I’ll do!

  13. I lied, I’m still here:

    “So let us now refer to the Daily Konfluence as a neokon blog as no self- respecting liberal would ever endorse neocon strategy.”

    So I guess Hillary is now a neocon too? I know this particular poster was a hard-core HC supporter. I guess that litmus test is pretty severe for everyone.

    Now I’m off. Sleep well.

    • You should see the horrible stuff about Hillary that Shtuey has written on his blog.

      On the other hand, maybe you’d rather not.

  14. Myiq,

    Can’t speak for Shtuey. As for madamab’s comment, I definitely remember the “All Jews are racists. F*ck them.” line as one of many colorful things Joseph Cannon had to say in the Cannon Fodder thread. Still on file with you, I believe. You honestly don’t recall?

    • I believe myiq has the correct quote. Your memory is a little twisted. Besides, Cannon isn’t a conflucian and all of this nastiness took place long before he ever wrote anything like that at TC.

    • I remember a lot of nasty anti-Palestinian comments as well, You don’t recall?

    • I don’t believe that was quite what he said – but Joe Cannon doesn’t blog here and if he did say that then he’s wrong.

      Also, the schism took place 2 weeks before the Cannon fodder thread.

    • You’re hanging with Shtuey’s crew. Lie down with dogs, wake up with fleas, as the saying goes….

    • I just looked at the thread. You were the only one that said that.

    • Here’s the link if anyone wants to look for themselves:


    • Here’s what I said:

      “A one-state solution brokered and enforced by the US and the world community would guarantee the rights of all Jews who choose to stay. If they choose to leave because, in their arrogance, they cannot tolerate the possibility of a non-Jew being elected to power — I say fuck ‘em. Fuck all racists.”

      That’s a far cry from saying that all Jews are racists. Of course they are not. Not all. Many are. So are many WASPS and Catholics and Blacks. The proportion of racists to non-racists vary from group to group and, within each group, from one time period to another — probably from one day to another. Ultimately, we cannot gauge the degrees of bigotry the way we can measure tire pressure. We just know that it is there, pretty much everywhere. Such is the human condition.

      For what it is worth, I think that if a one-state solution were implemented, most Jews in Israel would stay put. The CIA says otherwise (I had a blog post about that), but I feel certain that they would grumble, stay and make the best of it, just as the whites in South Africa did.

      Any Jew who could not live under a non-Jewish political leader IS a racist, and I still say such people are welcome to find a new residence in Hell.

      I also think that over a long enough period of time — say, 100,000 years — every group on earth will exercise its chance to prove its inherent barbarism. Even the Inuits. (Seems impossible now, but hey — it could happen.) Every group goes mad, experiences bloodlust, and writes a horrifying page in its national history. Lord knows my own Italian ancestors have proven themselves to be supreme rotters on various occasions.

      You think that Jews are immune to the disease we call humanity? You’re lying to yourself.

      It’s the exact same lie a lot of white Americans told themselves when they forced the Cherokee to march down the trail of tears.

  15. You name several prominent Jewish conservatives who are strongly pro-Israel and then imply that Shtuey and Madamab must be conservatives because of their support of Israel.

    That is the sort of mindless guilt-by-association tactic which underscores their point.

    I suggest RD [Corrected by Moderator] calls a truce to this idiocy immediately. You, Myiq2xu have done nothing up stir this up and it’s embarrassing. It hurts our cause in the PUMA world.

    • Where the heck did you find that in the post? I didn’t see it. Oh yeah…between the lines.

    • No, we don’t accuse them of being conservative. We accuse them of being clueless. They apparently didn’t know that neocons are strongly pro-Israel. Instead, shtuey accuses us of being neocons and madamab doesn’t bother to correct him.

      As to calling a truce to this idiocy, well, we didn’t write the post in question. Shtuey did.

    • I implied nothing.

      I stated that several prominent neoconservatives are Jewish.

      Shtuey called us neocons and stated that neocons hate Israel

      • RD, myiq — the situation is rather more complex than that.

        Yes, MANY neocons are staunchly pro-Israel. That has been the case since the heyday of Scoop Jackson. On the other hand, there are flavors of neo-conservatism.

        Take, for example, the strange case of Michael Ledeen. He has made many pro-Israel statements. I think he’d love to see Iran attacked, although he claims that he only wants to see “regime change” there.

        On the other hand, if you look REALLY closely at his history (I suggest starting with the book “The Rise and Fall of the Bulgarian Connection”), you’ll see that, back in 1980s, he spent a discomforting amount of time hobnobbing with Italian fascists. He has been credited with being a member of P2, which was run by a former member of the Waffen SS. (Ledeen denies this assertion, which, as I recall, was made by an Italian court.)

        At this point, politics becomes dizzying and unfathomable.

        I’ve been a Ledeen-watcher for nearly two decades, and I still don’t have the guy figured out. In fact, I still don’t have neo-conservatism figured out.

        But I do know this: If the Confluence can be accused of neo-conservatism, then the term has no workable definition. The phrase has simply become another way of saying “I don’t like you.”

        • Some neocons are just imperialists.

          But neoconservatism is not generally associated with anti-semitism.

          Quite the opposite.

          • I’ll never forget David Brooks’s opinion piece wherein he claimed that attacks on noeconservatism were inherently anti-semitic, which included his famous (con is short for “conservative” and neo is short for “Jewish”) jest.


            Not that David Brook’s opinions ever shed much light on anything.

      • Myiq, you may perhaps be a neoclown, but you’re about as far from a neocon as can be imagined.

        Frankly I never thought shtuey’s writing was really up to Confluence standards (and as someone who’s been writing elegaic poetry for over MMXXX years, I ought to know), but he certainly seems to have gone ’round the bend.

    • Their point? We are the ones who were made guilty by association. What is your interest in this?

    • Did you read the part where shuey said that neoconservatives are anti-Isreal, therefore we must somehow be neoconservatives because they’re alleging we’re anti-Isreal? myiq’s pointing out that actually neocons are the farthest thing from being ani-Isreal, therefore shtuey’s point makes absolutely no sense. This isn’t rocket science.

  16. You think you know people. For months now, madamab published those one act plays and some then some really good stuff and I just never knew this was what was lurking underneath. First she agrees with Shtuey that we’re bloodthirsty anti-semites and then she doesn’t bother to correct him over the neocon comments.
    I thought madamab knew about neocons at least. Like I said, this is not the madamab I knew.

    • RD [Corrected by Moderator], I am begging you to rise above this nonsense. This is a horrifying spectacle. Call a truce. There’s so much more that unites us. If several women were complaining about sexism on a blog, any *good* progressive would listen and mediate. This deserves the same level of adult intervention.

      • Why don’t you talk to Shtuey and MadamaB?

        Those are their words, not ours.

      • We aren’t progressives. At least I’m not. I’m a liberal and proud of it.

        I don’t want to bomb the “motherloving crap” out of any country.

      • Then kindly ask Shtuey and madamab to act like adults. I don’t know if I mentioned this before but the last time I emailed madamab, trying to engage in a perfectly reasonable discussion, her response was:
        “Never contact me again”

        That makes it very difficult to take the high road. It means that the person who you want to talk to does not wish to parley.

        It’s clear to me that they have completely gone off the deep end. They’re not right. They’re not even wrong. But we don’t force them to write this stuff. They simply give into the voices in their heads and do it all on their own. Maybe you should take it up with them. Go ahead. We’ll wait.

        • RD – why not de-classify the emails?

          This split seems permanent so go ahead and put it all out there. Let us review the info and come to our own understanding.

          • I am with Dee on this. Let us all in on it.

          • Sorry, guys. They are private. Oh, I don’t think we have anything to hide. Quite the contrary. We come off as rational and sane. But it would be a huge breach of faith and privacy. There’s more foaming at the mouth than just on the I/P issue. So, although the emails would completely exonerate the Conflucians who stayed, I’m afraid you’re just going to have to take our word for it. If we look like we have something to hide, well, it can’t be helped. Actually, I think we are doing those who left a favor.

          • Fair enough.

            From what little I have seen, I reiterate that I have made the correct decision staying here. This place makes me comfortable, reminds me of why I will remain an American citizen, and challenges me, all at once. I ain’t goin’ anywhere.

            (And may I add that I am sure liking the new front page posters.)

      • That’s right, no more fighting. TRUCE! NOW!

        • How do you have a truce if only one side agrees to it?

          • Expand that. How do you have a fight if only one side agrees to it? It would be amusing to watch the other side have to airbox while this side stays out of the ring.

            Terribly hard to not defend oneself against such blatant falsehoods, though. It’s very easy to see TC posters are both saddened and hurt by all this. It will pass.

      • That’s pretty funny. The bullies are throwing mud and you’re asking the ones getting pummeled by the mud to stop.

        • That is what has been happening all along. Because we were the only ones who finally felt we had to explain what happened, we are the ones who are blamed and told to fix the problem. But we can’t because the ones who left refuse to communicate with us except with invective. Then there are the commenters who left because they feel caught in the middle. Again they blame us, because we finally tried to explain the situation as best we could.

      • Why should RD be the one to call a truce? Her posts show she is not guilty of what she is being accused of. But I think that the mentality of the two who have declared themseles in no uncertain terms is the same mentality that prevents any permanent solution to the problem between Israel and the Palestinians. I have a 1939 Colliers Atlas where the entire territory under dispute was clearly labeled PALESTINE. Palestinians were driven out of their homes; their properties confiscated; and the Israel govt. does not even want to compensate them. It seems to me that the road to peace is clear to everyone except those who just want the Palestinians to disappear from the face of the earth.

      • Not at all the same thing! You don’t get it, do you, jfk464.

        In my mind, the Confluence has never deserved such censure, and it’s far better off without the Shtueys and Madamabs. (I’ve been lurking since the beginning, here, and frankly, I don’t miss the writings of those that have left.)

  17. I don’t understand how all of this erupted over I/P. It just seems so silly. 😦

    • That was pretty much what we thought too

    • No kidding. We tried to just let it go. Who knew we’d have to deal with psycho stalking?

    • Yeah, and to think that 95% of the time, we’re on their side. That’s the stupid thing. We actually support the state of Israel. We just think it ought to practice what it preaches.
      But NoooooooOOOOooooOoooOOooo. We are the enemy now because our support was qualified by good behavior.
      Go figure.

  18. OK — that was strange. So much rage and blood thirst. Who would have guessed?

    I’ve been saying that the main reason that Israel attacked Lebanon was over water — and now in that rant on “that” place — I see the water issue again.

    Water will be the key issue in more places now and in the future.

    In family dynamics we learn to look beyond the words and the fights for the reasons underlying the behavior.

    Cultures and civilizations have crashed because the water ran out. Right now the middle east has far more people than it can support — Israel seems to be lavish in water use — and at the same time restricting the water they allow the Palestinians.

    The desert Southwest is living on borrow time — depleting water resources. Huge cities have been built in the desert — Las Vegas, Reno, Phoenix, etc etc (oh and don’t forget L.A.).

    In about 1250 AD there was a complex culture in the four corners area of what is now the US (Utah, New Mexico, Arizona, Colorado) — and in a few short years the rain stopped and this culture more or less vanished. (Pueblo Indians claim this old culture as their ancestors).

    There will be a point when Israel can no longer find enough water resources to support their population. Who will they bully for more water? What will the other Nations do to get their share of the water — forget about OIL — the real issue of the future will be water.

    The US will also be facing this — as perhaps the climate changes and water no longer falls in usual and accustom places.

    • I worked for 3 months in 1970, as a babysitter in Brussels to a brilliant Uni prof, who was working on a project turning salt water into sweet water, by osmosis. It’s application was of particular interest to Israel, he told me.

      here is a link to a modern plant:


      • They’ve been doing that in Saudi Arabia since the late 1970’s. We were there working on big industrial projects at the time.

  19. Spammy ate my comment.

    I didn’t even use the r@cist word!

    But I was writing about W A T E R.

  20. I see three wickets ran right over to tell madamab his comment didn’t get posted. But it did. Are all these people insane?

  21. DK & RD now i understand whate you were talking about in your earlyer post

  22. Sorry to be so dense, but what the hell is shtuey on about? I can’t say I always read all the comment threads, and sometimes I don’t get to an article, so what brought that on? I haven’t seen anything that could even trigger that reaction, let alone justify it. Could a kind soul explain for the benefit of us folk who live under rocks?

    • wish i could, but i’m as confused as you

    • I suggest you direct your questions to Shtuey.

      I certainly don’t have any answers for you.

      • Can anyone give a clue about Shtuey’s identity? Like where he’s from or if he uses another name or if he was in Denver? There is a picture being shown elsewhere that is supposed to be him, in which case I met him and this would seem very uncharacteristic of the person I met.

    • We’re not sure. The only thing we know is that some former writers and commenters have become enraged over the I/P issue. The trigger was that we had a link to Cannonfire on our blogroll. They demanded we remove it, so we did. But they wanted something more, we’re not sure what.

      I think they wanted us to say that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic and that they get to decide what is anti-semitism is. But they won’t tell us what they mean by anti-semitism. We’re supposed to read their minds. So we’re still not sure why they are so angry.

      That’s the best I can do.

      • But other blogs with whom they are friendly have Cannonfire on their blogrolls and that is OK. Figure that out.

        • I was loosely aware of the Cannonfire dust up. To each their own, as far as I’m concerned. Without a major trigger, it seems to me that a simple disagreement would be a perfectly adequate response. If one disagreed, that is. In any case, thanks for explaining!

          • Some of us thought we were having a civil discussion over a relatively minor issue and suddenly we were talking to ourselves because the others had left.

            Then we began hearing how they left because they were fleeing oppression and bigotry.

            You can judge for yourself the credibility of those claims.

  23. Are we really back in high school? Kindergarden? Someone says something you don’t like so you take your toys and go home? I am getting really tired of all of this in fighting.

    We have a lot of work to do Can we please get past this? The Tea Party is so yesterday and the Israeli conflict will always be there.

    Suck it up and shut the f@#k up and get your asses back here.

    I love you, Riverdaughter.

  24. the Israeli conflict will always be there

    No, it can be over when Palestine gets statehood. Now. In our lifetimes.

    If it is done right, Israel will be more secure than it is now.

  25. Yes, I agree with you.

  26. Hmmmm. Shtuey has now gone back and edited his post to remove all the nastiness about TC. I know it was there, because I read it earlier.

    I’m likely more pro-Israel than about 80% of the people on this site, and I think Cannon is a way over the top on that particular issue (though great on other stuff). But I have never seen what I would consider anti-semitism here at TC, despite all the manufactured drama over it. What, we are not allowed to disagree on I/P dangers and solutions? I disagree with a lot of you guys on that, but I don’t call you evil.

    How very sad.

    • These are very intelligent people acting like idiots.

    • The original version is still on his personal blog (first link above). You must be looking at the expurgated version that he posted to the Widdershams (second link above).

  27. Those pix of shit in toilets really have me retching over my breakfast. 😦

    Anyway I’m really sorry all of this happened. I miss Swannie and DYB and Angienc, and I have a feeling Heidi Li is upset too.

    • Oh great, pictures of shit in toilets!

      Really mature, Shtuey.

    • The problem with people believing that they have a God-given right to a piece of land, means that they also feel they have a God-given right to bomb as infidels, those who disagree. (this is happening on both sides)

      I read somewhere on Shtuey’s site a couple of weeks ago, that he equates the Palestinians with a hundred million Muslims, that was when I stopped reading.

      In a similar stretch of the imagination he equates TC with a bunch of sh*t headed anti-semitic neo-cons.
      I never did like his posts here BTW.

    • But Laurie, you can still go chat with them at their new place. It’s not like they’ve gone into hiding. They chose to leave TC.

  28. Okay, as somebody who has watched this entire kerfluffle kerfluff, from the inside, and has subsequently studiously avoided taking sides so as not to get caught in the middle, let me tell you how I see things. People with no emotional attachment to an issue, and therefore able to discuss it objectively and dispassionately, are expecting people with a huge emotional, visceral connection to that issue, and the people who take their side, to do the same thing. Ain’t never gonna happen. Therefore, you have two choices, as I see it. You can insist they see things rationally and objectively, and, engage the debate on your terms, and, we end up where we are. Or, you can defer to their feelings.
    It’s not about right or wrong, blog rolls or anything else, it’s about being in two different, intractable emotional places and hurt feelings.
    Perhaps discussions of those issues are best left elsewhere for all concerned. Or, everybody agree to resign themselves to the fact that when it comes to a meeting of the hearts and minds on this, you just can’t get there from here.
    Just my opinion.

    • I don’t know what has happened behind the scenes but from my seat people are acting like assholes.

      • We agree and wish they would stop. Not only are they attacking us but they are working on the self-esteem of some of our former commenters. It’s really cruel.
        But, what can you do? We can’t force them to behave nicely. They seem to think this is a popularity contest and we are in middle school.

    • Good point about the lack of emotion vs. huge emotional connection issue between some people in the I/P issue. In those situations you can certainly say that you see that someone’s arguments on the topic are wrapped up in such things and very personal. And you can try to be delicate. And as with anything involving anonymous commenting, many people can be less than delicate.

      But on the other hand if it’s a political topic ripe for discussion on a mostly politically related blog, then it’s rather hard to avoid all together. So you can’t really defer the discussion to the crowd who are hugely emotionally connected. I would say everyone here is hugely emotionally connected to some topic or another including me, and we can certainly get heated over those topics, but I can cool off once I’ve said my piece.

    • I understand that an essential part of classical rabbinic teaching was that the Jews were a people in exile, prayers being regularly offered up to the idea that Jews would one day re-create a Jewish state in their ancestral homeland, and that the Temple in Jerusalem would eventually be rebuilt.
      This in turn became the basis for the nineteenth century Zionist movement.

      I tend however, to agree with the American Reform Judaism, which during the late nineteenth century and prior to the holocaust ceased to declare Jews to be in exile. For

      the modern Jews in America or Europe had no cause to feel that the country in which they lived was a strange land. Many Reform Jews went so far as to agree that prayers for the resumption of a Jewish homeland were incompatible with desiring to be a citizen of a nation. Thus, the Reformers implied that for a German, Frenchman, or American Jew to pray from the original siddur was tantamount to dual loyalty, if not outright treason. In the U.S., Reform intellectuals argued that their commitment to the principles of equal rights and the separation of religion and state precluded them from supporting the nineteenth century Zionism movement.

      Since the Holocaust and the establishment of the modern State of Israel, in 1948, Reform Judaism has repudiated Anti-Zionism, in turn compelling anti-Zionist Reform rabbis to break away during WWII to found the American Council for Judaism[7], which declined in activity following the Six Day war.[citation needed] There are now many Reform Jews who have chosen to make aliyah (move to Israel), and there are several kibbutzim affiliated with the Israeli Reform movement.

      And from another article in Wikipedia

      The full knowledge of the Holocaust altered the views of many who critiqued Zionism before 1948, including the British journalist Isaac Deutscher, a socialist and life-long atheist who nevertheless emphasised the importance of his Jewish heritage. Before World War II, Deutscher opposed Zionism as economically retrograde and harmful to the cause of international socialism, but in the aftermath of the Holocaust he regretted his pre-war views, arguing for Israel’s establishment as a “historic necessity” to provide a refuge for the surviving Jews of Europe. In the 1960s, Deutscher renewed his criticism of Zionism, scrutinizing Israel for its failure to recognise the dispossession of the Palestinians.

      What I am trying to say is that there has been and remains a deep and articulatediscussion within the Jewish faith on the question of Zionism and Palestinian dispossession.

      I have asked around here from locals, about what happened following 1945 and the founding of Israel. I was told that there really was no choice in the matter. There were masses and masses of displaced Jewish persons, pressing for a place of their own. There were boats and boats and boats full of refugees on the Meditterranean.

    • Cinie,

      None of us ever wanted to discuss the I/P issue. Why would that be the focus of a blog that formed because we supported Hillary and felt the primary process was unfair?

      We were completely blindsided by this. It all happened because of a link on the blogroll. Has it ever occurred to you how irrational it is that Shtuey considers you his “blog soul mate” and it doesn’t bother him that you link Cannonfire on your blogroll?

      This entire thing is completely irrational. I agree that people who have an emotional attachment to an issue have a hard time discussing it rationally. When we frially realized what was happening, we did defer to their feelings. They still left. They wanted something more–but wouldn’t tell us what they wanted.

      All you are doing is repeating the same argument that we (those who are still here) have had over and over again with each other and in our own heads. It is simply too late now to repair the damage. They have started a new blog together, and that’s fine. It’s a big internet.

      • And BTW, I don’t see the I/P debate rationally and objectively. I see it as the third rail–something I want to stay away from. I’ve seen how it tears people apart on other blogs I’ve been on. I don’t want anything to do with discussing the issue. I’m not qualified, and I don’t want the aggravation that goes with it. Forget about this blog focusing in I/P issues.

      • Whoa, I think you misunderstand me. I’m not defending anybody. Shtuey’s not real happy with me right now, either. And, I’m aware of who was pushing the I/P discussion all along. All I’m saying is rational people can’t expect emotionally invested people to respond logically, and vice versa. They’re coming from totally different places. And, this is why it’s so awkward to say anything at all about the issue. As soon as you do, it’s interpreted as a personal attack and people start jumping down your throat. Nobody listens and nobody cares. Makes you just want to wash your hands of the whole thing and walk away.

        • I think you’re right, cinie. And BB is right too. It took us all by surprise. But even though on the surface it looks like it’s about I/P, I think the issue is much deeper than that. I/P was just a catalyst.
          BTW, I am determined to continue to take I/P whenever the opportunity arises. We can’t just all act like scaredy cats about it or we will never be able to discuss it like adults. It’s my intention to take the emotionalism out of the discussion as much as possible. I know that’s hard to do and people will resist and complain. Too bad.

          • You have guts, RD.

          • Yes, RD: I’m glad you’re willing to address this I/P maelstorm–no one alive today can ignore it. The crisis, of course, intensifies because people are so emotionally invested and willfully refuse to see all sides.

          • I don’t think we can ignore what’s going on either. This is especially true since we all still have some interesting in Hillary Clinton’s career as one of the most powerful women on the planet and this is in her ball park.

            Right now we have two situations in that part of the world she must deal with. The first one is the Taliban resurgence in Pakistan and the second is the appearance hat Israel may try to bomb Iran’s nuclear facility again. We can’t be a political blog and ignore either of these issues.

            And I know I’m a quant and a Buddhist and therefor atheist to boot (but still not a Vulcan), but I if you can’t be civil about an issues, rather than display emotionally disturbed responses that lash out at others, then you need to work on yourself and your own issues and ignore the people that disagree with you.

        • I completely agree with you, Cinie; and what I wrote wasn’t intended as an attack on you. If it sounded that way, I apologize.

          I’m just frustrated because I agree with what you’re saying; but there is simply nothing I can do about it. We tried accommodating their demands up to a point, but we couldn’t turn this blog into a place where unconditional support of Israel is a primary litmus test. We want to be a confluence, not a delta, as RD puts it.

        • Cinie,

          No apology is necessary. {{smiling}} I really appreciate your input on this and that other sticky issue about how to have a big tent while preserving our values.

    • I’d rather not see it here at The Confluence – this is just not the place for it – we’re not about that

    • Cinie, your comment reminds me of something I heard in a U.U. Church one Sunday. The lay speaker said that people’s worst behavior comes from a place of insecurity. I think there is much insecurity around the I/P issue. I appreciate your not taking sides and trying to help us to understand the extreme sensitivity of this issue.

    • You are right. I understand where Shutey is coming from although we will never agree on this issue. His grandmother and maybe other members of his family are survivors of the holocaust. I always remembered that when I saw his posts. He has a more emotional attachment to Israel than me. He will always see things one way.

      Perhaps discussions of those issues are best left elsewhere for all concerned. Or, everybody agree to resign themselves to the fact that when it comes to a meeting of the hearts and minds on this, you just can’t get there from here.

      Agree again!

      • Forgot to state that no one here is anti-semite. I try to see things from other people’s pov and wish they would do the same. Alas on the I/P issue that will never happen and that is why those emotionally attached to Israel reacted the way they did.

        • Their reactions to the discussion were disproportionate in the extreme. Personally, I’ve lost respect for their opinions.

    • I know what you are saying and I agree, but…. Everyone has their own ‘hot-button ‘ topics. I have often been insulted by what I see as anti-Catholic comments, others think we are not enough into Gay rights, for others its feminism. When I get hot under the collar I leave. I understand that it is not worth getting nasty over it, because 99% of the time I can discuss the stuff rationally.

      I think it would be great, if we could all just put these ’emotional’ issues, that we all have (even if they are different) in perspective. Sharing thoughts and ideas is what the Confluence is all about.

  29. Now it all makes sense. I didn’t quite get the level of stuff you guys were talking about. But with the post and some comments, I’m beginning to get it.

    I have to say, those former TC’ers are not just acting like idiots. They’re right up there with the worst of the Obot bullying during the primaries. Maybe one day they’ll get it. But I wouldn’t hold my breath.

    Sometimes people can seem nice and civil at some level of interaction. But it’s when there is a big disagreement that their true character comes out. They may agree to disagree, work around it, continue to argue in constructive ways to dig deeper in an issue, or maybe even just say we can’t discuss that topic, which is all fine. But going down the fucktard path that these folks have gone is something different entirely. I hope one day they will get a clue.

    • RD always says “if you find yourself in a hole, stop digging”.

      I am not giving up on these people and there is no way they would drink the Kool Aid. I think they are sleep deprived and may have lost their way.

      I love the word fucktard but I’m not allowed to say it.

      • I hope you’re right. Normally I’m only allowed to say poopy, but it’s late so I snuck that one in. 🙂

      • We’re not saying they drank any O-flavored Kool-ade. We’re saying they’re behaving like their under the influence of some other Kool-ade.

        • That’s what I meant. Some kind of kool-aid. In other words, they’re not behaving rationally and are going off crazily at things that aren’t there. It’s like what happened with Obots.

          When I see posts like the ones referenced here, I just kind of say oooh, wow, well, alrighty then. And I whistle and roll my eyes and shake my head. Maybe there’s medication for what they have as well as the sort of similar thing the Obots have. Maybe time will do it. Who knows.

  30. How about ignoring them? Move on, it’s not worth it. Ignore.

  31. I remember Shtuey writing a post here, for which he was smacked down pretty hard. But instead of disappearing he came back, apologized for maybe having been insensitive, and unclear and went to great length to explain. That earned him my respect.

    Then at one point he wrote the most heartfelt (so it seemed!) beautiful unrimed verse about RD and TC. Very touching.

    Then the I/P conflict came up … and he and others became frothing maniacs. The things he suddenly wrote on his (and other’s) blog made me cringe. Where did all that hate come from? Why does talk of I/P do that to people? Do they even know, I mean really know anything about the conflict there? Except for what the media tells them, and we all know how believable they are.

    I have been to Israel many times. I know Arab Israelis, and I know Jewish Israelis. I have followed Israeli politics – admitted, from a European viewpoint – for years, and … I do absolutely not know what to think about what’s going on.

    And I never discuss it with people at either end of the extremes.

    • yep, now you’re getting it. We were on *their* side until they took it up to 11,

      • I think I may have followed this falling out more closely (on all the other blogs) than most commenters here, and it really hurt and baffled me. I can’t even begin to comprehend how hurtful it must have been to all you, who have been directly involved.

        I for one am glad that you have decided to be more open about it – and I admire you for having been so diplomatic during the accusations hurled at you from other blogs. But enough is enough.

        And I’m so glad, that this house is big enough and the hospitality so welcoming, that there is room for me too. 🙂

        • I just want to say that I’m so glad that you’ve added your voice to this community. We greatly benefit from hearing a European perspective, especially, in regards to this issue, from someone who has been to Israel and gotten to know people on both sides of this conflict.

          • Awww, thank you so much for saying that Inky. Your feed back means a lot to me. And for the record i love your voice too. 😉

  32. In moderation.

  33. Hey Fredster, where are you? Laurie and I are the zombie shift now.

    • nope-I’m off to work now scrubs. Hope you’re having good weather down in Aussie land. Perfect Spring days here. 😉

      • Yeah, beautiful days here in Cairns as well. If any PUMAs want a great break, my home is yours down here in beautiful Oz but wait until this time of year – May through September.

  34. Personally I think Riverdaughter may have the cyberhots for me. Why else would she keep mentioning my name? Honey, please contain your pining to the fjords. Your overtures, while flattering, are not appreciated, and are just plain creepy.

    RD has NOT been mentioning his name at all. What a creep.

    • I know – may I just add: ICK, ICK, ICK.

      As if RD would have taste like that.

      (Okay, I’ll behave now.)

  35. when will this end….

  36. morning all dental this am sadly I find my friends at war and my heart is breaking know I love you all but I need to take a break

    love fuzzybear

    • We love you too, fuzzy. I’m sorry you’re caught in the middle. I hope you don’t feel the need to choose sides. But you have to do what feels right to you.

    • If you really want to find out when it will end, you might try asking madamab.

    • Fuzzy, I appreciate your being a friend to all. It sounds very painful. I hope there are many rewards.

      I am reminded of this quote which I only rarely can live up to:

      He drew a circle that shut me out.
      A heretic, a rebel, a thing to flout,
      But Love and I had the wit to win—
      We drew a circle that took him in.
        —Edwin Markham

  37. Check out the Big Dawg putting it all into perspective:

    Bill singing Imagine.

    • What a beautiful voice that woman singer has! And she finally got him singing so you could hear him. Thanks, scrubs.

      • I love that man.

        But love his wife even more.

        A better (and funnier) video would have been Hillary attempting the same song! Bless her heart.

        Reminds me – where is Regency these days?

        • She was on View from Under the Bus last night. I think she’s pretty busy with college. I miss her too. I really like that girl. I know I shouldn’t call her “girl,” but she’s just a baby to an oldster like me.

          • Yeah, she’s definitely young in age – but oh, so mature, in spirit.

            Give here a big Aussie hello from me if you bump into her before I do, BB.

            And thanks for still being around. You have been a rock for me.

          • I’m glad you’re here too, scrubs!

    • OMG, that was beautiful! I had tears in my eyes. What a wonderful singer. The big Dawg wasn’t too bad, but that girl was fantastic, and the kids were adorable.

    • OMG…that was priceless. Thank you for that.

  38. I need moderation help up thread.

  39. It’s sad that this is another issue that has people viewing it from one extreme end of the spectrum to another. I’m telling you, I can’t stand pro-Palestinian people anymore then I can pro-Israel people. People who insist everything is black and white about the whole situation and you’re either with us or you’re against us. There can only be good guys or bad guys.

    I also believe people in America are not entitled to have these kinds of intense, absolutist feelings, because they aren’t living there, they aren’t seeing the situation from the inside. Seriously, we’re reading things and sitting on our butts forming opinions and choosing sides, vehemently choosing sides, as if we know it all. This kind of irrational hatred is reserved for people who have lost loved ones, who are so painfully emeshed in the situation that they can’t see clearly anymore. It kind of irks me that Americans sit here safely at home and feel entitled to make absolutist judgments about the whole situation, as if we have all the information and are qualified to make declarations about who is right and who is wrong.

    • Our original “crime” was being moderate and wishy-washy

    • “they aren’t seeing the situation from the inside. Seriously, we’re reading things and sitting on our butts forming opinions and choosing sides, vehemently choosing sides, as if we know it all.”

      This is so true. Every now and then I know the details of a story that’s reported in the news from my own experience – not the reporting – and the facts of the report are always, always wrong in several crucial elements. The report is never accurate and always misleading in some (not necessarily important) way.

      So, it’s my guess this is true with the International stories too.

      What a mess.

  40. relieved to see this pimple has finally been popped, and happy to see the cannonfire link is operational again.

  41. What I can’t get over about those former TCers is their level of childishness. The viciousness we’ve seen from many sources and some of us (I include myself) occasionally descend to it ourselves, but the utter childishness of their stunts and their language is appalling.

    In the end, it doesn’t matter. They won’t be missed. Neither of them was as thoughtful and interesting a writer as the ones still posting here.

  42. I am a little late posting a comment here, even though I was here last night. Maybe some will see it, though.

    I am usually around, but not commenting – not for lack of something to say – often because there is too much that I want to say.

    Personally, I have avoided commenting on the I/P issue in this particular forum. I also try to avoid getting too emotionally attached, as well as avoid getting too upset, with my virtual ‘friends’.

    What I have noticed is that the people who really get involved and emotionally attached to the group on the blog, are often the ones who get extremely upset when they perceive some type of rejection, when they feel rejected in some way.

    I actually don’t know why anyone would get so upset since there are numerous viewpoints expressed by many different people on this blog. But, I think that, for some people, they feel emotionally connected and emotional about a particular issue, and, when people they feel connected with do not necessarily agree completely, those people feel rejected. Hence the strength of their reaction.

    • That’s what I think ultimately happened, an assumed rejection of their viewpoint was seen as arrogant and disrespectful. Because of the high level of emotions, folks read all kinds of things into words that weren’t intended. Also, now, every time we bring up anything with the I/P issue, they think it’s a personal attack and just rubbing their noses in it. I’m not sure how to deal with that situation at all.

      • I was kinda shocked at the criticism of RD’s post about Holocaust Remembrance Day

        • Well, they each hyperemotionally ‘own’ an issue. This all is the same as the criticism we got about not being strong enough against prop 8 or doing things that aren’t bona fide ‘feminism”. We keep getting slammed for opening up to alternative viewpoints which to me isn’t a vice but a virtue.

          If they want an echo chamber, they have one now. I’ve already seen signs of the same thing, a poster being called a bigot because of not holding to a precise position concerning gay rights.

          As I said in my post, I was trying to stake out a neutral position, but given the extreme feelings and the refusal to engage in any polite discussion, just the ‘leave us alone’ to our own world dominion, I’m done.

          They can live in their vacuum and I’m just not going to enter it any more because if you don’t hold to the doctrine, you get called stupid. (My experience). This is MY last comment on the subject because I’m tired of being held to unreasonable standards and I’m exhausted from the back and forth. I’m going to post on things I know about and hope others do the same from which I can learn. I can’t hold to a position that I don’t know enough about regardless of the source.

  43. This is the stuff that frosts my berries:

    Boo Radly, on April 23rd, 2009 at 11:34 am Said:

    Thanks for saying what I have been thinking for the last few weeks in the kindest way possible Chevalier.

    Boo Radly:

    It’s 10:56am EST in WNC here. When one reads and comments on a political blog for a year, one thinks they know the FP’s and the daily commenters. I am guilty of using the TC as a source of intelligent information regarding current as well as past actions of my former party and how to go forward. When there is humorous banter as well it is a plus. The last several weeks have been tortuous as there are few posts that are pure – the topic goes back to “the incident”. In my opinion it has been handled poorly by them. I have read them since last March 2008. I can only say, bless their hearts. The constant carping about how they have suffered instead of just addressing what’s going on in the world – not their blog world – tells me something a casual visitor may not be aware of. They talk of friendship and how injured they are. Me thinks they doth protest tooo much. I tire of the need to validate them(I have not done so). Friends know each others hot buttons – real friends do not push those buttons and then say – look! I have no idea still what went down between them – I care very little. They could have handled this so differently – it is sad to watch them turn support for a better political climate into a popularity contest. I do not trust them any longer to relay how things went down with this personal feud. One clown went out of his way to post a thread about how Isreal will attack Iran – with maps. In all of bloggdom, no one else made any such posts – the personal animosity has a very tight grip on some and it is not positive. There are certain commenters who are flamed for perfectly reasonable comments – the moderator(s) just does not like this person because of past posts and they do not agree on some issues and they do a knee jerk quip – then get called for it(if it is not deleted). TC is not what it used to be. I wish they could somehow get back to the business they were founded on and stop playing victim. There are some really good minds there, but they are off track.

    IF this is inflamatory please do not post – won’t hurt my feelings. I was at DK for 5 years, TL for 4 months, TC a year. I’ve never been banned nor did I say “bluh bye” – they would just say “who are you?”…I judge on judgement shown by the host/hostess and the FPers, my little quirk. I also have no need to insult blog owners – they were at one time a good host/hostess – things change in todays world but not my core values and I am well aware that “things are not always as they seem”. My opinion is mne alone but I have been biting my tongue and sitting on my fingers for the few weeks – just a rant, probably makes no sense. I am curious if anyone else feels this way.

    All I did was present the words of others – if that’s “playing the victim” then so be it.

    I may be an asshole but it’s the only face I have.

    • Friends know each others hot buttons – real friends do not push those buttons and then say – look! I have no idea still what went down between them – I care very little.

      That’s the problem of a virtual world.
      I wanted to say this before, but thought the subject might be better dropped.

      When Shtuey and others came round insisting that Joseph Cannon be dropped from the blogroll, I do believe that they had no idea how fond of Joseph Cannon both you and BB are and what a hot button it would be.
      I remember BB commenting some time ago that Cannonfire was practically the first place she visited each morning. I think KB did too.

      By making what from their point of view was a fairly straightforward censorship request, they were in fact putting RD in a very awkward position, as far as loyalties go. She was put in a position where she had to choose, and while she did compromise, and oblige y’all to accept that compromise, it was not enough.

      The rest is history-there had already been friction about the Patriarchy-although Taggles did return here and post; Madamab was tending more and more towards the New Agenda; Shtuey found Joseph Cannon to be unacceptable, and no-one was listening much to him on TC anyway; Gary, I have no idea what went wrong there-he worked really very hard here.

      Doubtless things were said that should not have been said.
      Nuff said.

      • We (me-BB-KB) agreed to drop Cannonfire from the blogroll, but we didn’t agree that Joseph Cannon was an anti-semite.

        That wasn’t good enough.

        RD wasn’t in an awkward position – she’s the owner but not the dictator of this blog.

        • What did they want-a public condemnation of Joseph Cannon?

          (sorry- I know RD’s far from a dictator)

  44. I find it interesting that several people who criticize me for posting these statements here are not critical of the people who wrote them.

  45. Thanks for making my point. Your berries are not the most precious thing a blog should be based on. Who would of thunk it that a really good blog could be taken over by personal egos – I mean a really good one. IS there no one you will not call out for not agreeing with this juvenile victimhood – he said, she said. People are trying to tell you this is BORING. And we are embarrassed for you – you meaning those FPs who find it necessary to continue a personal feud – not just you.

    TC – good blog – not the best. My blog friendships are based on civility. I do not take your post of my post from another blog personally nor do I value your judgement of me – your goal in this blog is different than mine. This is will increase your viewership – woopy doo. What about quality? Guess what – my opinion is just mine.

    • It’s not “he said – she said”

      I posted their words about us – and you criticize me but not them.

      I don’t care for either of your faces.

    • (giggle) You are embarrassed for us? Oh really? Have you seen what site your buddy sends people to if they click on the link to The Confluence? If anything was going to embarrass me, it would be associating with someone who puts crap like that on his site.

      Your buddies have been binging on this issue for two months. And now we’re Purging ourselves of the issue.

  46. Hm, I am so hurt, lol. Where was my second post that you copied? I never pledge total idolatry to anyone – is that what you seek? That’s a shame because you will not find it. I am a user – an addict of political issues. You took my comments as personal – they are not. I really do not mean to do anything but point my good source of info back to a higher ground.

    Sauve qui peut.

  47. It should never have been made public. Whatever transpired behind the scenes should have stayed there. What you are doing is forcing the readers to make decisions on the accuracy of which side is correct when the facts, that never included them in the first place, are relatively unknown to them. Nor should they be.

    Multiple posts aimed at dragging in the worst aspects of other blogs (and Shtuey is a slob IMHO!) have entered this room with no other reason than to incite the rest of us. Proving who has the “high road” in any of this is never going to be achieved when daily assaults await the reader of what is being said on insignificant blogs whose readership level is far and away below that of TC. In two words: who cares?

    Other than the parties involved the rest of the readership was not owed a full blown explanation that merely invited more and more empty rhetoric surrounding events to which they had no claim. Tempers flared, feelings were hurt, things were said that may have led to a breach, and communication came to a standstill. The rest of us were placed in positions of having to choose a comfort zone that did not require mental gymnastics in order to appease a sense of loyalty.

    Where this blog had once been an inspiration to those of us who chose it as our “home base” so to speak, it has now become riddled with innuendo and finger pointing that had little or nor bearing on why we chose to be here. There is more going on the world today then a daily justification of who said what, when and where. To be frank, most of us never bothered with those other blogs who get dragged in here so frequently for days at a time to validate the sensibilities of others.

    The Confluence seems to be losing its compass if this is what constitutes open debate and discussion. I am sure I speak for a faction who would admit that they had never bothered with links to Rumproast, Shtuey, Lambert, Cannonfire, and other small blogs until they were introduced into the room in the first place. So some sites do not like us. So some sites prefer to view us as ridiculous. So some sites accuse us of things we protest. Again, in the long run, who cares? It is their right to freedom of expression, like it or not, and we are not required to read or discuss them. That is the one effort left up to us as individuals. Ignoring them.

    I am sorry that the hurt is being felt by people who do not deserve to be. I am sorry that name calling and pronouncements have become the norm. I am sorry that people I have respected have chosen, for whatever reason, have been torn apart. But I am as equally sorry for the commentators who enter this room fully expecting to find some measure of like minded discussion but are expected each time to rehash once more an episode not of their making. The high road has been lost.

    • No one is forcing you or anyone else to do anything.

    • (waking up)

      Pat, I have no idea what you are trying to say. It seems like you’re saying that we’ve lost our compass??

      I can assure you: that’s not true.

      • It seems like she’s saying that she feels bad for MadamaB. But she might mean she’s sorry our feelings were hurt. But I doubt it, unfortunately.

        I’m over it now anyway. Seeing that piece of crap Shtuey wrote and the adulatory comments from MadamaB was a real wake up call. Who would ever want to be associated with people like that?

        But Pat didn’t criticize what they publicly wrote at all. Just said whatever transpired behind the scenes should have been kept there.

        Newsflash: It has been kept there. None of the insane e-mails has been made public as far as I know.

        • (nodding)

          And (it seems) we’re supposed to take the “high ground” and pretend none of that crap on those other sites exists…. Well it does.

          The part I don’t get is that compass business.

          I know exactly where The Confluence is heading. And I’m perfectly happy with it.

      • What I am trying to say is that the constant reference to this issue is troubling. Of course I feel sympathy for everyone involved. I have already stated what I think if Shtuey. Nothing but flamethrowing from that quarter.

        But the same applies if each and every time he makes some outrageous statement it has to be argued on this site. Ignoring him is the best approach. Ignore all those sites who put down the rest. So insignificant they cannot be counted in the number of hits.

        Who really cares what he has to say. Inserting it into the blog for purposes of conversation is ridiculous. This is what I am referring to in saying the “compass” has been, at the very least, set aside.

        • but people wanted to know what happened, now the do, as far as I’m concerned it’s dropped after this thread, you won’t hear from me on it

        • Pat, It’s very clear that our compasses aren’t set to the same NORTH. And that’s making communication between us difficult.

          But, when you claim that we’re belaboring this issue, that’s a little inaccurate. We’ve had a few posts on this topic. But, our attention (as always) has been directed at the broader world.

          In your excitement at having a chance to show off your superiority to us you may have missed a particularly wonderful post by SoD – Asperger’s in Girls: A Lonely Childhood Undiagnosed

          There have been other gems as well. But the one I linked to above really shines.

        • Also, Pat, I just have to say you didn’t see the emails. People can WORM whatever the want to in whatever way they want to, but I know what I saw and read and it wasn’t all that different from Shtuey’s post except this was a public expression I could point to.

          I’m glad you’re here and I’m pleased you’ve been posting for us, but you have to realize that many many folks were asking what went on. I didn’t feel it was right to leave them hanging.

          I asked RD to make the post and I also thought it appropriate to put the Oliphant cartoon up so we could start a healing dialogue. I also though that the PUMA planning might bring people back. But it has become obvious to me that there’s more of an agenda than I imagined and I just want to drop it now that most of it’s out in the open.

          And believe me, there’s a few people that ought to be glad that RD and BB are sitting on their emails because it’s exempting them from way too much culpability imho.

          That’s all I have to say. I hope we can continue to work together realizing that every one has feelings in this.

        • If it had merely be Shtuey posting that passage at his blog then it wouldn’t have involved anyone else.

          But when others post public comments approving of his words then they shouldn’t be ashamed if others call attention to it.

          I will point out again – I didn’t reveal private conversations or accuse anyone of anything in a “he sad – she said” scenario. This is not my word against theirs, nor am I claiming to know their thoughts or intentions.

          I posted their public statements here and asked people to draw their own conclusions. If Shtuey and MadamaB are embarrassed to have others read what they said that is not my fault. If they want to retract, explain or deny those words they are free to do so.

          I find it really amusing that posting THEIR words yesterday about US is considered US attacking THEM when THEY are trying sooo hard to ignore US

    • We were asked over and over where people went and what happened. Pat, you may have wanted it all on the hush hush, but many folks didn’t. After a lot of discussion, RD wrote that thread and we thought it would put it to bed. But it didn’t. As I said below, as far as I’m concerned, this THREAD is it. I only did one thread because I AM TIRED of being side swiped every few days by something and I am asking it to stop.

      • That’s the thing – some of us didn’t understand where some of our favorite Confluence members had gone. Now I know the story and the reasons and I am content with my own decision to stay.

        Now, where is my favorite clown?

  48. If I had to hang out at a blog where everyone agrees with me all the time, I would not have any place to go.

    Anyway, I like to see different viewpoints because that is one way I learn to expand my thinking. I think TC tries to be open, without inviting extreme views or nastiness.

    It is not really up to people who comment to dictate what a blog should say or do. I don’t always agree with RD, but it is her blog and I think she tries to be open.

    I am sure we have enough people around to keep a good dialogue going. This is not kindergarden or group therapy.

    btw, I like having different people post, as well as having our in-house ‘experts’ on a regular basis.

    • Nice to see you back Fran-How’s your parent? and your son?

      • Thanks, Laurie.

        I actually never left, but haven’t commented much because I get home too late at night. (By the time I read through the other comments, I am too sleepy.)

        I am amazed that you remember about my parents and son. My Mother died last summer. (I know it was a rough summer. Several other people here lost family members, as I recall.) Now I take care of my Dad. My son is fine, but I always worry anyway.

        • My heartfelt condolences, I too lost my mother in September, it cuts like a knife. I lost daddy just three years before, I didnt expect my children and grandchildren to grow up not knowing their grandparents, I also didnt expect to be an orphan at 51.
          Be so thankful for every moment God gives us, the world around us is beautiful and we can find peace in Mother Nature, I have.
          No matter what is going on in our lives, we must always take a moment and be thankful for all we have, we are more fortunate than others, at least we have a roof over our heads etc.
          Take good care of your dear dad, I am sure your love sustains him.
          God Bless You and your beloved son!

    • Fran,

      If you are interested in posting, you can submit a sample to Riverdaughter. We have a couple of new people at the moment, but we’ll probably continue to search for new voices.

      • Thanks, BB.

        I have actually thought of it. I have been reading on a couple of relevant topics. If I ever manage to pull it together and focus, I will let you know.

        btw, I am always interested in what you have to say. I feel as though I have a fair amount in common with you. Well, I am the same age and on my own for most of my life, anyway. Also, I actually co-authored a textbook in adolescent psychology many years ago.

        Well, right now my hands are dirty and stinky because I have been digging in a mulch pile, which I will be returning to shortly.

        • I hope you do think about it. No pressure. Aren’t you the person who used to hang out in the rock ‘n roll world? Or do I have you mixed up with someone else?

          Have fun gardening. I’m starting to get excited because some things are blooming in my yard now–forsythia, violets, flox. And I see a lot of my perennials coming up.

  49. This is fanwank, people. Move past it, and don’t put it on the front page anymore.

    People who are waking up frmo their koolaid binges will be showing up here and seeing The Latest News From PUMA Infighting as the first freaking post they ever lay eyes on. Don’t front-page this garbage again. Seriously. I comment here a lot, and even I don’t care.

    If it doesn’t move you toward your goal, IGNORE IT.

    • It won’t grow if you don’t feed it.

      • well, it was just fed again (sigh)

        • I think it might be kind of the The Blob. What did they do to kill that thing in the movie?

          • nah, this one requires some one with the ability to do an exorcism … given the turn the world backwards to chaos and darkness occult reference and all

            makes me want to throw salt over my left shoulder like my extremely superstitious Irish grandmother taught me to do

        • Without the feces, it just doesn’t pack that punch we require to give it front page attention.

          • kb, you seem to be on a roll! I didn’t go to that link because the description was scary enough. And this reference is too funny!

          • Don’t go, purplefinn. Trust me.

          • well, just think, I prepared you for it, since i was the first to discover it and it was a complete surprise to me so i couldn’t even be prepared to get grossed out, although now it’s removed, probably from peer pressure or something so folks can have plausible deniablity

          • I trust all of you and no no no no no no, I won’t go. Sorry that anyone had to. That reminds me. Time to clean the litter …….

          • It wasn’t removed a little while ago. (but I’m not going back to verify)

  50. I disagree Janis. I think that it is important that it be addressed at this time, and to a point. I believe everyone looks forward to the day where this issue is history (ugly history, but nonetheless history).

    I think that in the meantime, it is important to address attacks, and to quash them, even from small insignificant sites and Pat implied, because these attacks are detrimental to the reputations of those people at TC, and to what PUMA is trying to do and build.

    Critics of PUMA will happily bring up the ugliest of the attacks on PUMA leaders and leading PUMA blogs, therefore, these attacks – personal and against TC as a whole, for example, must be promptly addressed and put down.

    It would be unfortunate that a few would be able to bring down what PUMA as a whole would be trying to do.

  51. Discussing the results of the earthquake here – a large crevice as I see it – has been enlightening, painful, offensive, cathartic and at times encouraging. I think it will die its own death.
    Cheers to all who remain on speaking terms, and more cheers to those who can still share a laugh and a snark! As someone already said, “Eyes on the prize.”

    • I feel very purged at this point. I think order will rise out of chaos–or something like that.

  52. I am pro Israel, but I don’t feel that makes me any less a valued blogger here. I met Riverdaughter in Denver and found her to be a witty and wonderful person.
    I don’t think we have the time to waste on such nonsense, we are all human beings with strengths and weaknesses, we certainly don’t need others pointing fingers at fellow bloggers whom we don’t agree with.
    We will never totally be in step with one another unless and until we embrace each others strengths and weaknesses.
    I want us to concentrate on what we have in common and what we have in common is much more beneficial to us than continuing a disagreement that we will never see eye to eye on.
    It is a big waste of time RD, don’t waste your time trying to defend something that you needn’t defend.

    One Love

  53. Laurie, on April 23rd, 2009 at 5:01 pm Said:

    That’s why I gave you the original link, Fredster 😉

    (had it on my browser under history)

    Oh okay. (Reached the end of the nest on that!)

  54. If it had merely been Shtuey posting that passage at his blog then it wouldn’t have involved anyone else.

    But when others post public comments approving of his words then they shouldn’t be ashamed or upset if others call attention to it.

    I will point out again – I didn’t reveal private conversations or accuse anyone of anything in a “he sad – she said” scenario. This is not my word against theirs, nor am I claiming to know their thoughts or intentions.

    I posted their public statements here and asked people to draw their own conclusions. If Shtuey and MadamaB are embarrassed to have others read what they said that is not my fault. If they want to retract, explain or deny those words they are free to do so.

    I find it really amusing that posting THEIR words yesterday about US is considered US attacking THEM when THEY are trying sooo hard to ignore US

  55. Since everyone has had a chance to speak their piece, I am closing the comments in this thread.

    I don’t expect to bring up the topics discussed here again -If no one else brings them up then neither will I

    (I reserve the right to respond to anything said about me, my fellow authors and/or this blog by others, if I should choose to do so)

Comments are closed.

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