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I'm this many

I'm this many

Today is my birthday.

I was raised in a fundie Christian church that taught me how the Hebrews were delivered from bondage in Egypt and led by Moses to Mount Sinai where Yahweh entered into a covenant with them that gave them the land of Canaan.  I learned that under Joshua the Israelites begin the conquest of their Promised Land, including the dramatic battle of Jericho.  It wasn’t until I got older that it occurred to me that the Canaanites were God’s children too.  Couldn’t He have given them some unoccupied land instead?

The church I grew up in was very pro-Israel, seeing the restoration of it as a nation as a sign of the imminent Second Coming.  Most of my life the news and media treatment of Israel and the Israel/Palestine conflict has been very pro-Israel.  I don’t think I’ve ever seen a movie that presented a pro-Palestinian point of view, but I’ve seen lots of depictions of Palestinians and other Arabs as terrorists.  Not without reason, for I also recall seeing news reports of Palestinian Liberation Organization terrorists committing numerous acts of violence including hijackings, bombings and the horrific massacre at the Munich Olympics.

The I/P conflict has been going on since before I was born 49 years ago.  Several times during my life the conflict has broken into open warfare involving Israel, the PLO, Egypt, Syria and/or other neighboring states.  Rarely has there been any progress towards achieving real peace in the region and there hasn’t ever been more than brief lulls in the violence.

I majored in history and I am aware of the Diaspora and the two millenia of pogroms, inquisitions and other anti-semitic attacks against Jews in Europe and elsewhere.  I studied Hitler and the Nazi era which included the Holocaust.  I also studied the history of Islam and the Crusades, but I confess I am no expert in those topics, nor am I an expert in the current conflict.

The area I live in has few Jewish or Palestinian people, so with the exception of the best boss I ever had (a survivor of Kristallnacht) and some former next-door neighbors who were Palestinian Christians my relationship with anyone from either group has been fairly rare but positive.

To me anti-semitism is like pedophilia – I know what it is but I don’t understand how someone can be that way.  I find ideas like the “Jewish Banking Conspiracy” and the “Protocols of the Elders of Zion” absurd and the denial of the Holocaust deranged.

If I had to rate my position on the I/P conflict with +100 being totally in support of Israel and -100 being totally in support of Palestine I would give myself a +25 meaning I lean in favor of Israel.  That number does not reflect my position on every sub-issue but is an average.  However there is no sub-issue where I am pro-Palestinian, I range from neutral (zero) to +50 on everything.

If you are wondering why I don’t “fully support Israel” it’s because I am an American and the only country I am loyal to is the United States.  But I don’t fully support this country either – especially not when it commits war crimes and torture or when it discriminates against women, LGBT’s and minorities.

I also have issues with Israel, like when it commits espionage against us as it did with Jonathan Pollard and Lawrence Franklin.  I am concerned about the influence of AIPAC on our foreign policy (I am concerned about the influence of other groups, foreign and domestic, as well) and the attacks on the appointment of Chas Freeman to the National Intelligence Council.  But having issues or concerns is not the same as opposing Israel – I don’t.

I believe that Israel has a right to exist and that Jewish people everywhere have the right to live in peace and safety, free from discrimination or threat of violence.  But I believe that for everyone else as well.

So I am upset and outraged at the people who wish to accuse me of antisemitism or “Judeophobia” because I don’t support Israel as much as they do or agree with them on every related issue.  The accusations against me (and others here at The Confluence) range from weak to non-existent and include the defense of other people’s right to express a contrary point of view and bizarre conclusions drawn from obvious typos.  And lies – lots of them.

They say it’s okay to criticize Israel, but if you do you’ll never hear the end of it.  Any information that is critical of Israel is anti-semitic propaganda.  If they say someone of something is anti-semitic and you don’t agree they claim you are being offensive and hurtful.   If you obect to their tactics they claim you are trying to silence them!

The liars know who they are.  Their stance is akin to the Obama supporters who accused us of racism for not supporting Obama.  As far as I am concerned they can all go Cheney themselves.  I will not STFU nor go away.

Happy Freaking Birthday to me.

(comments will be heavily moderated on this post)

143 Responses

  1. You’re 80? Nice teeth, too!

  2. (Waving) Happy Birthday, myiq2xu!

    I’ll have to comment after I get my thoughts down to 4 lines (and after I get to my parent’s house)

    (do clowns like birthday hugs?)

  3. Don’t worry about a few extra lines, I just don’t want to deal with any long sanctimonious essays today.

    • {{{{Myiq – -ooo, Happy birthday}}}} 😉

      I not only agree with you, but also have the same belief system.

      I could not figure out how charging “anti-semitism” because of inadvertent statements or even typos was any different than when we were charged racist for innocent comments.

  4. Very reasonable post–you are sorta where I am on the issue and I am Jewish.

    Happy Birthday!! Have some good (high butterfat content ice cream).

    • Thank goodness! I’m about the same place on the issue as myiq, except I know less about the middle-east portion of the history than he does. I’m quite familiar with the WWII part.


    Here’s today’s WTF moment: Many Americans feel we’re moving in the right direction! Never underestimate the ignorance…



    • Um…42% isn’t a very good “right direction” number. I guess it’s an improvement over Bush’s, but hardly good news for Obama.

      • The first give away was “Many” in the headline. The graph these propagandists link to clearly shows the MAJORITY (57%) saying we’re on the WRONG track.

        Why isn’t the headline “Most Americans think the country’s direction is on the wrong track”? The answer: Because the Ministry of Truth’s job is not to tell the truth, it’s to sell more kool-aid.

        • Intentional MSM distortion of the grim and getting grimmer realities Out Here becomes more and more disturbing. These motherf*ckers played a key role in our current disintegration and they resolutely continue to dissemble and cover up. Tin foil hats are going to be all the rage soon. Well, at least part of it.

  6. A first step would be rescinding the call for the destruction of Israel.

    • Who called for the destruction of Israel?

      I sure didn’t.

      • That’s a new one on me.

      • Yes, that’s pretty much the Hamas position. They refuse to recognize Israel, and will not recognize treaties already made with Israel by the Palestinian Authority. As you might imagine, this is a huge stumbling block for the western nations in dealing with Hamas.

        There was a Hamas inspired demonstration in Jordan back when I lived there in a town about a kilometer or so from the border. One of the speakers incited the crowd by yelling “drive them into the sea”, whereupon the demonstrators all started moving towards the Israeli border. Of course the security broke up the demonstration at that point, which was pretty easy as there was a sudden downpour and everyone dashed for their vehicles.

        The unfortunate “drive them into the sea” phrase was first uttered during the time of the first King Abdullah, and is still way too common over there. Of course the “Jordan for the Palestinians” theme is just as inciting. Those two unfortunate slogans represent the two polarities of the one state “solutions(s)”.

      • Can someone take my comment out of moderation?

    • I don’t recall anyone calling for the destruction of Israel?

      I do remember there being a discussion on whether or not a two state solution could succeed(which wasn’t even here just a site linked to here) but no calls for destruction.

      There is a difference between the two.

      My best friends growing up were Jewish. It’s a shame to be lumped as a antisemite simply because I don’t see the Israeli Palestinian conflict in terms of black and white.

      • A two state solution is already succeeding, in all but name.

        How does a “one state solution” not mean the destruction of the other group?

  7. If you are going to “open it up” then open it up. There are some out there who feel that they have been censored, or that their viewpoints have been distorted, and would perhaps welcome an opportunity to offer a reasonable rebuttal. There appears to be hurt feelings on both sides, which is understandable, but this post invites feedback, IMHO.

    Common ground may be elusive but it is out there.

    • Who has been censored?

      • There are some out there now who feel this way and have expressed it on other blogs.

        • No frontpager has been censored here, and very few comments.

          We finally got fed up in the past few days and zapped a few, but the complainers were already claiming censorship by then.

        • I don’t have time to read a lot of other blogs, but it would seem that if these people have problems with The Confluence, the best place to express that would be here. In the posts on this topic, only a few comments have been deleted as far as I know.

  8. First.Happy birthday and many more to you on this wonderful day.
    Earlier, after reading some news today about the upcoming summit, I started to wonder about The World Bank. Thats the international money for developing countries that all the rich countries are supposed to help. I don’t know much about it, I just remember Paul Wolfowitz being put in as President by George Bush until he got caught sending jobs and money to his prostitute/girlfriend. I had already read about Wolfwowitz being part of an Israeli Cabal to take over the world or some such nonsense and never paid attention to it. But this morning, I was curious if our new administration had appointed somebody head of The Worls Bank that promoted Obama’s philosophy and goals. At first, I figured he and Timmeh had forgotten about it since Bush’s appointee was still there. That is until I read the Bank President’s bio:

    “On May 30, 2007, US President George W. Bush nominated former deputy secretary of state Robert Zoellick to succeed Paul Wolfowitz as President of the World Bank. The Executive Directors unanimously approved Zoellick, effective July 1, 2007, as the 11th President of the Bank for a five-year term.[4] Robert Zoellick is the former Deputy Secretary of the U.S. State Department and the former Chairman of Goldman Sachs’ Board of International Advisors. He graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law School and Phi Beta Kappa from Swarthmore College.[5]

    Zoellick announced in October, 2007 that his priorities for the World Bank included increasing efforts to reduce poverty in the world’s poorest countries, increasing support for neglected Arab countries, increasing support for countries emerging from violent conflicts, addressing poverty in “emerging” economies like India and China, increasing emphasis on environmental issues (especially global warming), and improving access to treatments for HIV and malaria. [1] [2]

    Does anything stick out to you guys about this new President, Zoelick? How about that he too, came from GOLDMAN SACHS! Is there anybody in Treasury or any economic government entity that didn’t at one time work for Goldman Sachs? Is that why they got the first bailout, no questions asked? Maybe I’m off my rocker, but there does seem to be a shadow group pulling the strings across the political spectrum. My tinfoil hat is shooting out sparks.

    • I don’t think Wolfowitz’s gf was a prostitute. It does seem that Goldman Sachs is a very powerful player. They own Obama. I didn’t know about the World Bank.

  9. Oh my, I just read your request for no essays, never mind, happy birthday anyway.Delete please.

  10. Happy Birthday, myiq and many more!

    I only have one question with respects to the “dramatic battle of Jericho.” Couldn’t that also be considered a holocaust? I remember watching an old Ancient Mysteries program on A & E years ago and was horrified when the rabbi told the story as if the destruction was no big deal – I was really struck at the order to spare no one, including animals, who lived in the city. Having rebelled at religion and leaving the Catholic Church at 11 years old, I have not been indoctrinated with biblical anything. Perhaps my horror at Jericho being another holocaust – one of many perpetuated by humans on other humans and Nature – is a naive one.

    I think this post is a good one.

  11. I know this, these folks have been fighting each other from the beginning of recorded history, all for land or what that land is supposed to signify. I find this story of bondage and suffering and strife to be the perfect example of the flock being led to the slaughter over and over again by the master that only serves itself. I have sympathy for those who suffer on both sides, the innocent in those battles are the majority, who like us are victims of those who pretend to lead them.

    I think because most of us are the products of judeo/christian education our loyalties are aligned more closely with the Jewish State, but in the end this is all about people, most of which want to peacefully co-exist with each other but can’t because of fueds and arguments and testaments and cultures and ancient history that prevents them for seeing themselves in the others eyes.

    I’ve been an occupant of this planet for 6+ decades and this is the saddest of the sad stories that I’ve seen in my lifetime and one that will never be resolved. I wish the US government would spend it’s moral capital, or what’s left of it, on solving the problems that it can, right here at home.

    • We don’t give as much attention to bloody conflicts in other places either.

      Are some lives worth more than others?

      • Often the targets of any excuse (cause to blame) throughout history, from the them poisoning the wells, to any plague that befalls upon a society. Seeing the historic nature of their suffering it is no surprise that they were active in the Civil Rights movement and were willing to risk life and limb for the rights of others.

        Probably one of the main things that makes this so tricky is that when people say they don’t support Israel’s right to exist (code), it really means anywhere and there in lies the danger to all Jewish people.

        • OK, Happy B-Day to you! I am in moderation? You are an odd Ole Bird, picking such a subject on your special day, upon which you graced the world with all that you were going to say….’Until Infinity’! 😯

        • Which writer at TC has said he or she doesn’t support Israel’s right to exist? Please be specific.

          • I didn’t say any writer here has said that, I am stating what generally is put out there as talking points, which in my opinion brings about the ugliness that is anti-semitism.

        • But that’s the point. We have repeatedly been accused of insensitivity, despite not taking any kind of anti-Israel position.

          • bostonboomer,

            I have not been able to keep up with every post/comment here over the last few weeks.

            I went back and read some old threads, trying to figure out what had happened.

            On one thread where comments had been closed, the last comment was something to the effect of “if the jackboot fits, wear it.”

            That is horrifying to me. Not to mention insensitive.
            And anti-Israel.

            I’m sure that comment caused quite a bit of hurt.

            Not sure if there are others like it because after seeing that I couldn’t read any more.

      • silly rabbit, the answer is yes some lives are more equal than others.

  12. Happy Birthday myiq2xu from a lurker. You are wicked funny. I look forward to your posts.

  13. Happy birthday myiq!

    Reading on the recent I/P back and forth and fallout, I agree with your opinion that “the people who wish to accuse me of antisemitism or “Judeophobia” because I don’t support Israel as much as they do or agree with them on every related issue” and “They say it’s okay to criticize Israel, but if you do you’ll never hear the end of it. Any information that is critical of Israel is anti-semitic propaganda…” It’s pretty much how I read the situation unfolding as well.

    I am glad to have you address and defend your opinion, but by the same token, I just hope that TC does not become attached to having to address and discuss the I/P issue every single day. I would be dismayed if this was the case, and would see it as TC lending credence to the notion I perceived coming from some commentors that where a blog or blog owner or frontpagers stand on the I/P issue should be some sort of litmus test.

    • This whole controversy caught us by surprise. I don’t think we had a single post about I/P all last year, and the issue is kinda low on my personal priority list.

      But I would like to see occasional discussions of the topic that don’t always end up in flame wars.

    • I don’t have a stand on the issue. I haven’t noticed any other FPers being passionate one way or the other either. But I can only speak for myself.

  14. Fighting for survival is necessary. Fighting over an extra inch of land is obscene and I don’t much care who insists otherwise. Few nations, ours included, are not free of blame over the centuries. If a bomb, missile, or gun is pointed at my head the last thing I would be considering is who to thank.

  15. Happy Birthday myiq! Too early for a shot?

  16. Happy birthday Petulant Clown!

  17. Happy Birthday, myiq. You are one funny clown!

  18. This is a thoughtful post. There is a big difference between criticizing Israeli policy and advocating the destruction of Israel, as Joseph Cannon does. Indeed, Cannon uses selected passages from the Old Testament to show that Israel is comes from a violent
    religion and therefore must be destroyed. This is prima facie evidence of anti-semitism. Any government is open to criticism and most Jews I know are critical of Israel while asserting its right to exist.

    • Joe Cannon doesn’t blog here, but my understanding of his position is that he favors a “one-state” solution to the I/P issue.

      But like I said, he doesn’t blog here and you can discuss his views with him over at Cannonfire.

  19. Happy 49 revolutions around the sun, myiq2xu!

    Sláinte agus saol agat !

  20. I dislike this whole debate immensely and it saddens me.

    The strangest comment I have read so far here though, was that of speaktruth, who, probably inadvertently, let out that her in- laws were elderly old time Jewish Socialists who totally disapproved of what was happening in Israel. So much so that although in retirement they travelled the world, they never went there. She added, that in her opinion they must have been anti-semitic.

    Personally I dislike right-wing religious fundamentalism in any shape or form-and they are in power at the moment in Israel, too.

  21. It’d almost be kinda interesting if you had two opposing view posts back to back(one that justifies Israeli action regarding Palestine and one that refutes it) . Of course that’d mean everybody’d have to put on their “big people”panties and realize that dissenting views don’t necessarily mean the end of the world and sometimes it is okay to disagree(vehemently).

    I am acquainted with Muslim individuals and Jewish individuals. I just wish the two sides would learn to get along for the sake of their children.

    By the way, happy birthday myiq

  22. Sigh, I’m doomed to be sent to moderation.

  23. Happy Birthday, myiq!

    But I can’t leave it at that. You need to be berated.

    That picture of yours is avert-your-eyes caliber as a thumbnail. Full size . . . well, it’s payback time for giving me nightmares: Are you really that ugly or do you work at it? 😀

  24. myiq2xu; Happy Birthday from San Francisco.

  25. Happy birthday myiq! (I sent you birthday wishes on the previous thread but just in case you missed it.)

    My I/P stance is very similar to yours. Although I know much less about the history which is why I usually keep my mouth shut on the subject.

    I’m an atheist with no Jewish ancestry that I’m aware of, but I’m fairly sensitive to anti-Semitism. From my experience it’s a form of bigotry that is considered acceptable. And it seems to me that critics of Israel often fall into that hate trap. I’m not referring to you or any Conflucian FPer, but the one thread that featured JC’s (IMO) hateful rant.

    • It was hateful and how it found its way into this blog that eventually tore it apart is troubling. Bereft is more like it.

    • I’m an atheist too (as all practicing Buddhists are), strange thing is, on my father’s side, one of my first ancestors that showed up in this country was one Peter Mann, a Jewish man who came over with many Huguenot protestant french. When Alsace Lorraine was taken from Germany and returned to France, the catholic church took the property of the Jews and the Protestants there. So he packed up with the Protestants and left with them.

      • The only reason that I wrote “that I know of” is because all humans share ancestors. I’m pretty sure that I have a Jewish ancestor somewhere down the ages. I’m mistaken for Middle Eastern quite a bit. Not that it matters but I think it’s interesting since I’m 3/4 Italian American (Catholics to the core) and 1/4 Virginia redneck (troublemakers to the core).

  26. All that I am saying is that discussions surrounding feminism, r*ce, religion, and the I/P issue garner heated response. Oversensitivity often leads to a wedge when the interpretation is taken personally. Often what finds itself “slapped” into the comment section is mistaken for hostility and the thread begins to become overheated in response. Nuance and tonal discourse are often misrepresented and the dialogue tends to go downhill from there. Issuing statements like “get over it” are not helpful and feelings are left bruised.

    I make no claim to a “cerebral” approach regarding these issues, nor do I come fully equipped to offer more than my own opinion which is what most posters do. Intelligence to me is attempting to make sense of both sides even if I do not always completely agree. Just saying.

    • That’s why I’d favor a two differing opinions back to back approach evenif it meant inviting guest posters. I’d even label it something like the flip side to ensure folks knew that two opposing viewpoints would bew presented. It sounds like alot of the conversing wenton in private email so I’m uncertain howmuch damage has been done but may be the rift is fixable.

      I disagreed with alot of folks during the feminism thread and tend to take a step back when overwhelmed to evaluate things. Maybe these folk are doing likewise.

      We aren’t going to 100% agree with each other on issue. I do believe the core values here are very similar and it seems a shame that some want to throw the baby away with the bathwater.

      • I’d prefer focusing on U.S. politics as we always have and not discussing the I/P issue at all.

        • US politics and the I/P conflict are going to be linked together because foreign policy is intertwined with politics.

          • Yes, but that doesn’t mean I need to focus on it. I’d just like to be able to spend time on the issues that interest me most and let other people spend time on the things that interest them most. That’s all.

      • If memory serves, you and I went back and forth one day over feminism. This did not interfere with our online “friendship”. We each come from different generations, life experiences, degrees of education. Hopefully those considerations count for something.

        • We sure did. You were very polite though. I had a pretty rough exchange though with some other regulars. The exchange caused me to pause because I really do admire and respect the two women I was conversing with. I almost felt dirty after the exchange. Of course I gave what I got so I wasn’t 100% innocent myself. I realized that after taking a step or two back.

          • After you’ve gone round and round and round about the same stuff over and over and over you often end up flaming the most recent rather than the most egregious.

          • I remember. I’m just glad you hung in there with us, cwaltz. I hate it when things like that happen.

      • I agree with the idea of live and let live–that has always been my preference. But no one was ever asked to leave this blog over any disagreement on this issue.

        • (((bb)))

          I am absolutely positive that every was made to reconcile the two viewpoints(we can disagree and still coexist) and no one was asked to leave. I am the veritable queen of contrary viewpoints and I’m still here(no one has asked me to leave).

          It does seem a shame that somehow a particular viewpoint felt slighted. I do not think though that anyone purposely set out to make someone feel their position was unwelcome here(short of rude and inflammatory).

      • I think this is a great approach and I often used it when I was putting out a local music ‘zine. Band wars can be fierce and very emotional and the only way to approach sensitive topics was giving both sides a chance to air their views. Although I’m sure I made plenty of enemies anyway, but that’s probably a fair price to pay.

        Personally, I like it when people disagree with me. Especially when they have a good point. It makes me think and I can be lazy so it’s good for me to be pushed. I’ve found that this blog has managed to get my brain working again. Which I’m very grateful for.

        • We must be twins, I like listening to an opposing viewpoint as well. It sharpens your skills and helps you figure out what the opposing viewpoints arguments are and where the chinks are in your “armor clad” argument.


    • Pat,

      In my experience, you have always been polite in your comments on every topic–except perhaps in reference to “that thing” in myiq’s avatar.

      • That is because I admire this blog and the people who have made it what it is. I may not agree with each and every post and poster, as I am sure they feel the same toward me, but I don’t take it personally as all this blog represents is a forum of opinion. Nothing more.

        • I feel the same way. And I admire you. I don’t expect to agree with everyone either. It’s hard not to take it personally when you are called obscene names, but I’m over it at this point and I just have to chalk it up to living and learning. The next time someone flings expletitves at me, maybe I can just shake it off.

  27. Happy B’day myiq! I see you gave us a full portrait.

    However I’m not touching the rest of the post with a ten foot pole; neither yours nor mine.

  28. In moderation.

  29. Sorry, off topic, but I found the Summers connection fascinating.


    ” … Mack says she was fired after she raised concerns to University officials about managers’ qualifications and possibly irresponsible usage of financial instruments that could have contributed to the recent and sudden decline in Harvard’s endowment.

    In an e-mail sent May 30, 2002 to Marne Levine, chief of staff for then-Harvard President Lawrence H. Summers, Mack detailed her concerns regarding what she deemed HMC’s “frightening” usage of derivatives and statistical modeling techniques, as well as the Company’s lack of a timely and portfolio-wide risk management system, high employee turnover rate, and low level of productivity in the workplace, specifically among managers.

    According to documents and e-mail records, all provided by Mack, Levine had initially assured Mack that their correspondence would remain confidential. But on July 1, HMC chief Jack R. Meyer called Mack into a meeting, in which she was presented with copies of her e-mails, according to a letter sent to Levine and Summers by Mack’s attorney.

    The next day, Meyer dismissed Mack, pointing to “these baseless allegations against HMC [that you sent] to individuals outside of HMC,” the letter says. “

  30. Happy Birthday. Isn’t the beauty of this United States is to voice your opinion? My only beef with people — are the ones who are SHEEP. They listen to a sound bite and that’s their argument or their vote.

    I for one appreciate an argument from both sides. That’s how I learn.

    I like this paragraph — I believe that Israel has a right to exist and that Jewish people everywhere have the right to live in peace and safety, free from discrimination or threat of violence. But I believe that for everyone else as well.

    I love lurking here – reading the articles & occasional comments — it makes me think – it gives me a different perspective. So what I don’t agree with everything — I sure do value what others are saying, thinking, feeling.

    Thanks for all your posts and everyone else’s.

  31. Onr thing I have learned is not to discuss Israel. Too much emotions there.

    That said Happy Birthday MyIQ

    • It was your typo that gave this post its title.

      *Someone* concluded that you were talking about a modern-day Jewish Banking Conspiracy.

  32. I have never taken a stance on this issue at all. I have never really understood why the US has always been pro-Israel, but again don’t know enough about it to make an informed opinion.

    The one thing I do know is that: were you are from, the color of your skin, or your religion or sexual orientation doesn’t have a damn fig to do with whether or not I like or dislike someone. Hell, I may not like someone, but I can admire or respect them.

    For some reason, I like everyone here, because we differ on issues and discuss it rationally and as adults. I don’t log on weekends because I sit in front of a desk all day and do NOT want to do it on my time off, so I have no clue what happened over the weekend. I just know this place has kept me sane over the past couple of years and I don’t want to lose that. I actually consider you guys “friends”, without ever having the pleasure of meeting you.

    Happy Birthday myiq, you usually rock my world with your posts! Keep them coming.

    • Happy Birthday Miq!

      I also don’t understand the US/Israel relationship. My only real objection is summed up in the Sheehan quote:

      “Every time anyone says that Israel is our only friend in the Middle East, I can’t help but think that before Israel, we had no enemies in the Middle East .” John Sheehan, S.J.

      I think one of the biggest issues in the I/P debate is the time isue. Yes the Jews lived in Palestine from about 1000 bc (+/-) to about 77ad. But the non-Jews lived there from 77 ad until 1948 ad. So the Jews owned the land for 1000 years, the non-Jews for 2000. And the non-Jews had onwership MUCH more recently.

      I think if the Jews and the Palestinians could just agree on a division of land (certainly not Best land =Jews, crap land=Palestinians) and NEITHER try to stal from the other it would be the best for everyone.

      Of course I believe in Unicorns and Dragons too….

      • Ooops, What’d I say??


        p.s. My IP address is identical to someone whose name rhymes with “phooey”

        (edited for the amusement of Captain Spaulding)

  33. (*&*(!)*#$ I am in moderation!!*(#)*$($*

  34. {{Group Hug}} I love you guys!

  35. Happy Birthday myiq! A true Aries like yourself, will take up conflict whenever they deem necessary, so I admire your gusto in this endeavor.

    I think you hit the nail on the head with your remark that its because we in the US are predominantly of Judeo-Christian background that the Israel issue becomes of major importance. Yes, peace in the Middle East in general is supposed to signify the second coming and it seems that there are many on both sides who want this to happen (or not to occur) for various reasons.

    Our views seem similar in re to the Palestinian problem. Part of my concern about Obama aside from the more obvious reasons that he is not a liberal and was fronted by the big bankers, was his use of Palestinians in his campaign as shown on a national news program (talk about foreign interference in elections). I have heard about the counter argument that Israel dominates US foreign policy since taking poli sci courses in college. & Many believe that Obama is somehow countering this with his more nuanced approach to foreign relations. I don’t believe this … I just think that Obama desires first and foremost to be popular with all sides and adjust his stances based upon who he is talking to.

    Caterina — “On one thread where comments had been closed, the last comment was something to the effect of “if the jackboot fits, wear it.””

    To show my ignorance I thought that jackboot was a term to describe military in general (Soviets wore them) and not just Nazis. But I have heard the term “jackbooted thug” to describe Nazis. Growing up I knew that Nazis were obviously anti-Semite and were so hateful that they instituted the holocaust, but I also thought that they were the epitome of a group bent on oppression in all forms.

    • bent on oppression in all forms

      Yup, as with all totalitarians. The Jews weren’t even first on the Nazis list. As far as I know, and I could be wrong because this is from way-back memory, it went: gays, gypsies, Jews, Slavs, Catholics, and I don’t remember who was next. I’m not sure if they could have proceeded to all non-blonds because where would that have left the Fuhrer himself?

      • And anyone who was in anyway physically “imperfect.”
        I went to the Holocaust museum in DC years ago. The images there would make your soul vomit.
        And I always wondered even as a kid, why all their stupid propaganda posters had an aryan ideal when their head sheister didn’t look a damn bit like their ideal.

        • I’m in the moderation club. So I’ll just footnote my comment here. By “physically imperfect” I mean having any mental health issues or physical impairment.
          You wouldn’t believe what those b**tards did to those people.

          • They used the term “physically imperfect.” Actually, it’s giving me the holy creeps to even discuss those
            *$#@##. Just wanted to make clear I wasn’t using that term from my vocab, but from theirs. Done now.
            I can’t discuss those pieces of crap anymore.

      • Don’t forget Blacks. the ’33 Olympics REALLY messed Adolf up!

        • Right you are. Blacks and Jehovah’s witnesses too. Wasn’t it anybody who was non-state-sanctioned-Protestant?

          Ironic, that even though they despised the Slavs, that Asians (or maybe just some Asians) were okay. That’s were they got the swastika symbol, which is a mark of all-around goodness and virtue among the Tibetans (and Mongolians?). I did some work on medically important Himalayan plants and worked with Tibetans (who are just about my favorite people in the world). It was really bizarre seeing that symbol, which means nothing but evil to us, used in a completely different context in old books and on temple walls.

      • remember the jehovah’s witnesses too

  36. Hey Kim pull up a bench! gxm started a moderation club for all of us doomed to be moderated.

  37. Happy, happy birthday, myiq! May I just say, you certainly have a unique-assed way of celebrating!

  38. BB:

    Check your email

  39. happy birthday Myiq2xu-I too walk a fine line between fairness and support….with reqard to Israel and Palestine I guess we hold the same position as stated above…

    No nation is perfect after Nov 4th and May 31st of last year we all learned it the hard way!

  40. Happy Birthday OLD MAN!!! You share it with my ladyfriend (Ha Haaaar).

    Elvis – Fame and Fortune.

    I find that women routinely scream in the same fashion when I walk into a room. LOL

  41. fuzzy is in moderation I only typed 5 lines! gosh you are tuff today spammy!

  42. I lean to the pro-Palestine POV.

    On feminism I lean towards electing women off all political stripes because there is more to me than the Uterus they took out years ago.
    But democrats insist on playing the abortion rights card and assuming they can scare up my support with that. Not going to happen anymore.

  43. I tend to lean a little more towards Israel than you do, myiq – perhaps a 35% to your 25%?

    In my mind, there are many things that muddy the waters on the I/P debate. I will mention two:

    One is the history of the Jewish people. I don’t believe that any group in history has been as hounded, as blamed, and as despised – not just for one small period of a several decades by a defined enemy, but repeatedly, by different cultures, and different nations, for centuries. So yes, I do think that gives them a certain platform to be more protective of themselves than most. When a group is oppressed during a single dark time in their history, it leaves a deep impact on that group’s cultural psyche. When it has happened again, and again, and again, despite periods when it seemed “all that is past” and the world accepted them, one can hardly blame them for being extra-vigilant. I will likely be accused of “discounting” the fact that the Palestinians have also suffered mightily. I am not, and they have. They’ve suffered horribly. And their suffering is not less than in any way. My point is that viewed from the standpoint of recent centuries, the Jews have endured a pattern of cyclical oppression that is nigh unique, and like it or not that makes a difference.

    The second is the willingness of both sides to manufacture outrage, and to manufacture “evidence” of the other side’s atrocities. I would (personal opinion) say that Hamas and other groups on the Palestinian side do this slightly more frequently, but both do it. It has happened often enough that it makes it nigh impossible to have a sane, fact-based discussion, since the “facts” themselves rarely stand on their own. Any attempt by us or other blogs at unraveling what is happening devolves into multiple (and all dubious in varying degrees) news reports being launched at one another as “proofs” of innocence or perfidy.

    Is that a long sanctimonious essay? I could go on…..

    • good point about the historic persecution of the Jewish people. But we folks have a long, ugly history of persecuting people. Gay folk have been quite persecuted. And, unlike other groups of people who have bonds of ethnicity, they have had no readily available group of people to find condolence with.
      It has been said “nobody wants their gays.” I don’t know if this is true but the word faggot sure sounds like it comes from the term faggot which was the wood bundles thrown on the fires to burn the “witches.”
      It seems in the history of gay/lesbian world, it was “be who you are at the threat of your life” for most of recorded history. And the pink triangle was right there with the Star of David in the camps.
      I don’t post this to in anyway minimize your point about the Jewish people’s long suffering. But you did get me thinking…

  44. I’m in moderation too, but I may have been a wee bit long and a skosh sanctimonious. Either that or the clown is drunk again, and can’t come get me out. 😉

  45. Happy Freaking Birthday, MyIQ!

  46. Happy Birthday MYIQ!

  47. Happy Birthday, myiq. May your day be truly wonderful.

  48. Happy birthday, old guy!

  49. I’m not sure if a “happy” birthday is the Controversy-craving Contrarian Clown wants, but my wishes for one all the same….

  50. MYIQ: Happy Birthday!!!!! FYI: You’re not supposed to admit your age, AT YOUR AGE!!!!

  51. OMG I just forgot to wish “breathtaking” myiq a Happy Birthday greeting earlier! My apologies. Getting ready for Book Club later and while tossing the salad and cubing the cheese it dawned on my that I had completely omitted that.

    Happy Birthday, myiq, and many happy returns for whatever that means in your world!

  52. I don’t care what they say about you on Those Other Blogs, myiq.

    I just want to say Happy Birthday and You’re Hawwwwt.

  53. Happy Decanting Day, myiq2xu! May Our Ford bless you! :mrgreen:

  54. HAPPY BD!

    Not sure if I ever told ya I love clowns, circuses and magicians –MIQ!
    (Maybe that came from watching a lot of Fellini)….

    Anyway — like you, I studied History via Art History and Film History so I’m very clear on Leni R. and Hitler. I’m an American from your gen — we all know this stuff, no? We do.
    However, for me — seeing that stuff that just went off?

    No! There was no excuse to use that time between presidents to do that. One would think WWll was a LESSON for the world?
    The whole world. But, I wonder how stuff is taught now? There may a whole gen whose frame of ref only dates to the Vietnam War?

    And? If there is a ghetto in Gaza like there was in WWll?

    Well, then, what has history taught anyone?

    Of course, right now — I’m thinking of Benito M. because after yesterday? Stuff like that just doesn’t happen in America. Nope.
    So, one fab thing is the wiki! For those who need a little lesson about the 1930’s…




    and filmmakers!


    See, education is soooo important.

    Educated intellectuals tell the truth! Clowns, too. BRAINY clowns — you just can’t fool people from this state….Can ya?
    Just like you can’t fool a real live Democrat.

    La Strada — I’d love to revisit that…on TV.

    Anyway — HISTORY HAPPENS. So, I looked up the woman responsible for what just happened. She is our gen.

    If you look into her history war has been her life.

    My feeling is that it is up to our AMERICAN gen — to work for world peace.
    It’s a John Lennon thing– we sort of grew up on.

    Right now though? We have a slight prob with that NK country. Their Dear Leader probably has an issue with what he sees as DL2. It had to be the posters. no? It had to be. When arrogance meets arrogance? Hmmm…..

    anyway, happy BD in the midst of it all, Brainy Klown. You’re fab.

  55. HAPPY HAPPY HAPPY BIRTHDAY to the psychotic clown of the blogosphere!

    May you have a great day today!

  56. Happy Birthday, MYIQ2XU!

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