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Tuesday Evening Open Thread

That was NOT the official White House response to Jim Cramer – but it’s close.

What’s on your mind?

248 Responses

  1. I still don’t like the nesting — yes, I’m doing it, but I don’t like it & I don’t come here or post as much because it is too hard to follow new comments.

  2. I really don’t like the nesting either, but remember we can choose not to nest.

  3. it is too hard to follow new comments

    If new comments were marked it would be different, but right now you have to scroll through the entire thread everytime you refresh.

    • That’s what I’d like to see, something that bolds the new comments. I’m pretty on the fence with nesting. I think it allows us to respond to a certain train of thought better and is closer to conversation mode but it does make me sad that it makes almost half(I think it was 45%) unhappy. If it causes alot of people to be less inclined to join in a conversation then I’d be willing to forgo it.

    • i follow the Recent comments listing on the right, it time stamps them for you

  4. I like nesting. It lets me respond directly to comments, and follow particular tangents within threads. Makes conversations easier to follow and conduct, imo.

    • I’m with you. It’s not necessary to reference the post to show to whom you are responding.

      • I still find myself referencing out of habit sometimes. Also the reply mode will only work about six comments deep so your exchange is somewhat limited without taking it further down thread anyways. That might be problematic if you are discussing something that has alot of back and forth.

        • Most everything had to be taken further down thread and referenced, pre-nesting. Also, we can jump up thread, click on ‘reply’, and the new comment will still show up in sequence.

    • I know y’all will be so surprised to learn that I still really like nesting. Some new names have sure enough shown up, and we’ve been having more conversations and fewer non sequiturs. All in all, nesting seems to have livened up the joint.

      • I like nesting too; although I also like the idea of bolding new comments. Although I wonder how helpful that would be since new comments become old comments fairly quickly, so pretty soon wouldn’t all the comments be bold?

        • There is software that only marks it as new if it was left since the last time you refreshed or replied.

  5. I like nesting.

    Of course you do – you’re from Illinois


  6. It’s not necessary to reference the post to show to whom you are responding.

    Before we had nesting it was like everybody was taking part in the same conversation.

    Nesting is divisive

    • Can’t agree here, myiq. Before nesting, there wasn’t much point in responding to a comment an hour or two later. Anybody who showed up late was pretty much out of luck. Also, nesting doesn’t seem divisive at all; it seems more inclusive, actually. The fact that new names have shown up, along with more comments from previously infrequent commenters, pretty much supports the latter.

      (BTW, please rescue my comment at 10:12 from moderation. Thanks.)

      • nesting isn’t divisive. some comments inspire a response and others don’t. nesting clarifies which comment inspired the response.

    • WHY am I in moderation, huh, huh? I sense an anti-nesting conspiracy!

  7. I don’t care for nesting. It’s great if you’re there to reply at the time, but not later. I don’t like having to click each individual recent comment, then re-read the original comment that the reply is to. I miss too many comments – unless I’m a day late and the thread is dead.

    • That’s another reason I wish there was a way to put something to signify new comments added. I try to remember how many comments are on the thread where I respond late so I don’t end up being rude and ignoring someone who does respond to something. Sometimes we have 3 or 4 interesting threads on diverse topics and its harder to keep track of new comments.

  8. Cinie — I agree about the responding to the specific comment being easier but that positive is outweighed by (imo) negative of having to refresh & look at the blog roll on the left to see who wrote a new comment & then clicking on that comment & then the other comment, etc. just to see what everyone wrote. It is time consuming & annoying to me & in the end I just give up & leave.

  9. What GAgal said!

  10. somebody – I think it was 3W – said it was like before we were all in a big communal beach house with all these conversations going on in the same room all at once, and now it’s like we’re in a mansion with lots of rooms and people are going off into different rooms to talk. I like that description. and I liked the beach house 🙂

  11. I’m spoiled – I’m used to following threads from the admin screen. Before we had nested comments I could figure out who was saying what to who.

    With nesting the comments look like a bunch of non sequiters.

  12. I liked the beach house

    We still had separate conversations but you could follow all of them at the same time

  13. I liked the beach house too — now there are no more cocktails for me if I want to be able to follow the comments.

  14. I wish I was from Pennsylvania and they still bundled.

    Like in The Patriot?

  15. I liked the beach house too — I could enjoy a c*cktail & follow the conversation(s) — now, no more c*cktails if I want to be able to follow along with the nesting.

  16. I dun like the nesting… and I don’t know what the beach house is….

    • The Beach House is a James Patterson novel, but that’s not what they’re talking about.

    • Grumblerumbleriggafraggasnuckerfrumprrrrrrr nesting mumblefluggaummmbagrrrrrr hate it frigga duddlemooogaroooobagumpleriggafrugglemrrrrr

      • More wine?

        • That’s what I imagine this cocktail party sounds like. And, no thank you, I reached my whine limit.

      • Well myiq. That may be the question. Is there volume traffic of people who come to the posts later to read the discussions. If not, then that’s a factor, that is, if the vast majority of the traffic is real time and not lapsed time. You guys would know best.

    • the beach house is a synonym for no nesting. the multi-roomed mansion a/k/a nesting

  17. I’ve missed you too Angie XOXO (from downstairs)

  18. Hi again elderj!! 😉

  19. Since this is an open thread I’ve got to say this: I’m watching The Biggest Loser — this show is so stupid — the whole suspense here is “in order for your team to win, Mike you must have lost at least 10 lbs” — as if there is anything this kid can do now to change things (i.e., lose more weight or make the other people who already weighed in lose more weight). GAH! Tuesday nights on tv really s*ck.

  20. I rarely read the nested comments because when I try to, I find I’m mostly reading the same stuff I already read. not that y’alls comments aren’t worth reading twice, mind you, but it is time consuming.

  21. I’m in bed eating brownies and typing on the laptop. My children graciously shared their germs with me so now I can’t breath out my nose much.

    • You have cookies? what kind?

      • I have brownies.LOL The I’m too lazy to even open up a box and put eggs and oil kind. It’s the Duncan Hines ovenstyle ones you find in the freezer section. I’m a big baby when I’m sick nowadays. I’m lying in the bed with the remains of the plastic pan and a spoon grateful I can still “taste” the chocolate. My 16 year old made some spicy pico de gallo earlier to help my sinuses. It, garlic and chocolate are the only things I can taste with a stuffy nose.

  22. kiki — me too — or I just don’t read any of the comments — too time consuming to keep up (imo)

  23. awww CWaltz, feel better!

    and don’t ever say your children never gave you anything

  24. CWaltz — get well soon!!!

    I hate being sick –I always get depressed thinking I’ll never get better & will end up being sick forever! LOL

  25. brb — have to go walk Pepa (in the snow — so it will take me longer than usual because she hates it so much that instead of going faster she will stand there & shiver while looking at me pathetically for at least 5 minutes before deciding to go).

  26. Well it’s also kinda like the difference between a dinner party and a larger cocktail party. When there are more people who want to comment, then they have the option to nest. When there is a quorum of people who want to engage in the same conversation, then no need to nest. But having the option could invite more people to comment. Dunno.

    (Be greatful I rescued you – ABG was gnawing on your leg – myiq2xu)

    • Oh sh!tt, thought that was the puppy.

    • It’s been pretty clear over the past week that, with the advent of nesting, new people have been feeling more welcome to comment. This should be a good thing, shouldn’t it? Isn’t the addition of new voices worth the increased effort which some veteran commenters seem to perceive?

      • I’ve been commenting here for a while, and I comment (and read) less now — does that count for anything?

        • Yes, of course it does. Why would you even ask that?

          • I did not comment regularly ~ but now I find I’m not reading ras many comments…. I come, read the post and skim the comments. before I read the comments as an extension of the post…. I’m glad some of you like the nesting, but some of us really really do not.

  27. myiq, can you save me from the filter. I said c@ck.

  28. Well actually c@cktail. Never mind. Sorry, so many people have a cold.

  29. lol 3W, I thought you were preparing your Good Friday sermon

  30. The fact that new names have shown up, along with more comments from previously infrequent commenters, pretty much supports the latter.

    Then can you explain why the average number of comments is waaaaaay down?

    • Maybe cuz things are really screwed up out there and we feel kind of powerless? I have noticed that the economic posts have larger followings and the non-economic ones tend to twist in the economic direction eventually.

      • People are reaching their saturation point. I don’t think all has been said and done, but I do think all has been said.

        I feel like in many ways, we here, and others that I have more direct contact with are all repeating ourselves. We’re spectators in this debacle. We don’t know what to do, so we say the same thing over and over. We watch, listen, read, analyze and rethink. but we have no answers. and there’s almost nothing else left to say.

        • Ah, this may help shed some light on the continuing (increased?) interest in dakinikat’s threads. She regularly covers new ground, offers new info and insights, and responds to reader questions. ( HeidiLi has also begun a women’s history month series, which also covers fresh territory.)

        • Joanie, I see that. But honestly I for one am never tired of any post or comment. The election is past tense, yes. But the world is moving a mile a second these days, and it’s not just the economics for me. I really get a lot out of everyone’s opinions on the events of the day. Keeps me centered, whether I’m commenting or not. Especially since I trust the msm for almost nothing these days.

    • Yes, I’ve been feeling shell shocked lately. But in a way, all the more reason to look to each other, to vent and commiserate. 🙂

    • Well, it does seem like a fair number of longtime, frequent commenters who don’t like nesting have effectively been on strike. That may well have something to do with the average numbers going down. I’m just completely baffled by those who see nesting as difficult to navigate. It’s so logical and easy to use.

  31. We miss the back and forth banter of the live main conversation. Maybe we can pass out sweets at the main table.

  32. I’ll admit that pre-nesting conversations were kind of scattered. but that’s actually how I prefer conversations, even in real life. but hey, it’s not my blog.

  33. I have noticed that the economic posts have larger followings and the non-economic ones tend to twist in the economic direction eventually.

    Do you want you mouth washed out with soap???

    We don’t use the “E” word on my posts.

  34. for some reason he hates the word ‘eventually’ – something from his childhood, I suspect

  35. myiq — I for one comment a lot less now because of nesting!!

  36. does that count for anything?

    It counts quadrupal.

    • It counts for everything, girl. I love y’all, but without angie a lot of the spirit and part of the place is missing for sure

  37. aw myiq! that’s why I love ya! 😉

  38. I was imagining paramedics driving around town rushing to the rescue.

    They were coming quickly too?

  39. Well, the question is whether this site really wants new visitors. It seemed to me that before nesting, the group that knows each other mainly talked amongst themselves. New commenters seemed to be ignored. I can see how the longtime group would prefer the “coziness” of the other format and understand it and empathize. I am just a lurker so I am sorry to be so blunt. I don’t jump in often. But, I do understand the “oldies” missing the other format so if you want that, I think you should go back to it. I do not think that either format is what attracts or does not attract new visitors.

    • Thanks for your honesty.

    • I think we’re somewhat split. The original totals were 55% in favor of some form of nesting and 45% against it. I think riverdaughter wants us to at least try the new format for a little bit, rather than dismiss it because it is different(some even out and out said they were not fans of change when she asked for commentary).

      What makes you want to lurk rather than comment if you don’t mind my asking?

      • I know I tend to lurk more than comment, mostly because I come into threads late. By the time I got through reading, any comment I tried to make was almost irrelevant, people had moved on.

        I like nesting because it’s more conversational. I don’t try to go back and re-read looking for new comments, mostly because I don’t have time.

    • I post here a lot and I don’t get a lot of people “talking to me” in the sense of addressing me directly except when I’m the only one here. I don’t feel that that’s because I’m being ignored or shunned by some clique of regulars, but just that we’re all having a general conversation. Your comment is being read even if no one addresses it specifically. And as far as the time thing, there’s no reason why soMeone can’t quote something hours old if they want to talk about it, people will listen.

  40. Well at least some of the money I’m giving to citi will go to help actual people rather than just a bottom line.


    It’s a start.

  41. Angie:

    What’s that french phrase – “je n’ai se qua?”

    Nesting has ruint it

  42. WNC — no need to be sorry for anything! I think we all appreciate what you have to say about it & think you should start commenting more often! 🙂

  43. myiq — it is: je ne sais quoi

    And yes, nesting has ruined it.

    Sorry Kat5 — I’m not too stupid to follow nesting — I’m too busy to & I end up missing tons of comments unless I can spend all day here — I simply can’t do that.

    • C’mon, angie. Stupid is not something anyone would confuse with you. Never said that, didn’t imply it.

    • I am neutral about the nesting, but interestingly, I have the opposite sensation. I don’t have time to hang out either and find it possible to remark on a comment that I wouldn’t have been able to unless i was really quick and present in the here and now (with the nesting).

  44. Well, the question is whether this site really wants new visitors.

    Yes we do – but will these new visitors stick around?

  45. it seems to me that if you’re responding, via nesting, to a comment that was made two hours ago, the person to whom you’re responding is probably gone. I can definitely see how it forms a more coherent conversation. I just think the people currently chatting will miss your comments, as they read that part upthread already. WNC, talk more, don’t be shy

  46. I have the opposite sensation.

    What’s the point of posting a comment on an old thread if no one reads it? Why couldn’t you post your comment at the end of the thread with an indicator as to who you were responding to?

    We used to have trolls that loved to post all kinds of crap on threads that were MONTHS old. Did they win because they “got the last word?”

    • I don’t mean after the thread is over, I mean while it is still going on, but in reference to something i may have missed or wasn’t fast enough to respond to. Also, I notice some of the post authors go back and respond to comments in their respective posts at their leisure and i have gone back to read them.

    • I just mis-nested upthread.

      That may be the question myiq. Is there volume traffic of people who come to the posts later to read the discussions. If not, then that’s a factor, that is, if the vast majority of the traffic is real time and not lapsed time. You guys would know best.

    • I sometimes feel like I am being disruptive and disrespectful when I comment on something off topic in a thread but on topic with a previous thread. I usually just post in an old thread to get it off my chest.

    • I sometimes comment on old threads because I wasn’t there when it first went up, but also because I figure that there are others like me who read the entire thread sometimes days later.

  47. Did anyone else see this:
    Senate ignores McCain, Keeps Thousands in Earmarks


    “The Senate voted overwhelmingly to preserve thousands of earmarks in a $410 billion spending bill on Tuesday, brushing aside Sen. John McCain’s claim that President Barack Obama and Congress are merely conducting business as usual in a time of economic hardship.

    McCain’s attempt to strip out an estimated 8,500 earmarks failed on a vote of 63-32. The Arizona senator’s proposal also would have cut roughly $32 billion from the measure and kept spending at last year’s levels in several federal agencies.”

    O’s administration spent all day stressing they *inherited* this mess from Bush – but the Porkulus Bill was created and signed on his watch.

    O created it. Now he owns it.

    • I wonder which of the things was considered pork. It wasn’t like birth control income wasn’t considered pork by the GOP even with a study that shows the government saves $4 for every dollar it spends on family planning.

      I voted for McCain in 2008 but I have some real differences with his party on spending.

    • I have no idea what’s in that omnibus bill. Happened too quickly. Media did not cover it. Guess I should have researched online.

      • Heh

        From what I understand even most of Con gress didn’t read it. I’m not at all happy that they are raiding future Social Security to provide tax cuts though.

        • Yes, been following that with concern. FICA needs to be watched.

        • Yes, I caught the SS sleight of hand on another blog today – can’t remember which one. Why isn’t the tax cut raid being reported on front pages? Okay, dumb question.

          • It’d cut into fashion commentary on Michelle and important issues like what kind of dog the Obamas have picked out?

  48. if you’re responding, via nesting, to a comment that was made two hours ago, the person to whom you’re responding is probably gone.

    Okay – you said it better.

    If you respond to a comment made hours (or days) earlier in an old thread who are you “communicating” with?

    • You’re just adding your voice to the conversation. The thing about the internet, is that the conversation can go on even when one party has left the room.

  49. KJ, I saw that on Yahoo, but didn’t read the story. I’m not a McCain fan, but thought the headline was unnecessarily inflammatory.

  50. Kat5 — I didn’t mean that you were implying that I was stupid — I just get frustrated when you say how logical, fun & easy nesting is — I understand that you feel that way about it, but please understand that I don’t find it fun or easy (in that it is more time consuming).

    • and, I don’t like being characterized as ‘going on strike” because of nesting — I’m not on strike — I just don’t like the nesting and, accordingly, I don’t visit here or post as much. I have the right not to like it without it being implied that I’m purposefully trying to punish this site or anyone here.

      • Sorry that you found the phraseology accusatory, angie. That isn’t the spirit in which it was employed. You have been one of the more active voices here, so of course your absence has been noticed and your presence missed.

        • Kat5 — I love you & I’m not trying to pick a fight at all I’m just frustrated at the whole nesting thing — I’m not trying to be difficult — I just really don’t like it! (if you can’t tell) !! LOL

          • Awwww, angie, you would go and say that and change my mind completely about the bird domicile which shall not be named. I’m really sorry that you’re feeling so frustrated and that this is causing you to stay away. (I’m also really sorry that this comment keeps timing out!) There’s gotta be a solution.

  51. @KJMontana — I wonder how long the media fluffboys will allow BO to continue to blame everything on the “eviiiiil republicans” especially considering Dems have had a congressional majority for 3 years now. Ya think they might have a little something to do with things going down the toilet?

    • They let W get away with it for a full term. I imagine Obie will get the same free pass.

      • Not so sure about that, especially when BO’s approval drops below 50. I also thought it strange that the believers think their only opposition is the Limbaugh right. They can’t accept that there are plenty of other doubters out there. Just arrogance. It will fade.

        • W wasn’t a depression president (well, not in the economic sense). Ever shrinking wallets are almost certainly going to lead to ever thinning patience laced with anger, especially as more Americans begin to comprehend the falsity that is Obama. We badly needed an FDR. We got a thin-skinned celebrity – not nearly enough to fill the bill.

  52. Also, I notice some of the post authors go back and respond to comments in their respective posts at their leisure

    For a while I was closing comments in my old threads to force people to join the active thread.

  53. I agree that the lack of sequential time in a thread is a problem, but the direct response aspect is nice.

  54. Sandra Day O’Connor on Daily Show now!

  55. O created it. Now he owns it.

    KJMontana — you would think so, but nope. The meme is O inherited this mess so it’s not his fault — quick, look at what Rush is doing.

  56. Without nesting the threads are like a single group discussion – with nesting they aren’t.

    There are pluses and minuses to either method.

    I prefer no nesting.

  57. “For a while I was closing comments in my old threads to force people to join the active thread.”

    myiq- I was referring to the post authors, not the commenters, and not to you, obviously!

  58. I wish nesting/no nesting was up to the poster – but it’s all or nothing.

    • I wish that too.

    • There’s software that can do that — at least it’s up to the reader! Click one button and you can read nested, the other button and you can read chronological.

      I’ve seen it on expensive software, but look around and y’all might find a patch.

      Data point, I seldom vist or post, but I’m posting now because it’s nested. When I have to go to the bottom of a long page to make a post, I usually don’t do it, becaue then it’s a pain to find my way back to where I was reading. Also I feel like I should read the whole page first because maybe someone has already said what I’m thinking. Non-nest is just too much hassle usually.

      Also I like posting substantive stuff and where all the most recent posts are party stuff I feel like a party pooper.

  59. That gives me an idea- is it possible for you guys (the post authors) to decide whether their thread will have nesting or not? Or is that too cumbersome?

  60. you read my mind. myiq

  61. (waving at angie) Not that I mean to be cliquish…. I’ve just missed you.

  62. I was referring to the post authors

    Our posts used to be one long conversation – the newest post topic would be discussed but it was like one linear train of thought.

    Not anymore

  63. I have an idea — how about nesting during the day and no nesting at night? That should satisfy everyone (yes, I realize that myiq can’t turn off the nesting for his posts, but he can remind everyone in his post to not nest as it is after 10:00 EST — for example).

  64. I have to agree with angie about the nesting aspect. It was first rolled out and we were asked to vote. The majority, although slim, voted against. Then it was to be on trial for a week. Regulars commented that they did not much like it.
    Then it was said that if those people still did not like it they may probably leave, I kind of took that to mean that our concerns for missing half of what was being posted did not count for much in the end.

    As the continuity became blurred by having to reread postings from top to bottom too many times, I decided that, because this is not my blog nor my call, to not comment with any regularity. That puts me in angie’s corner as well but perhaps for different reasons.

    • RD had it the other way around. The nesting option was more than one option so collectively it obtained 55% while non nesting was a full 45%. Alot of people didn’t like it though because the options were nesting older comments first, nesting newer comments first while no nesting only had the one option.

      I think RD said she was also going to poll again after we used this format for a little bit. I think she just wants to make sure it isn’t being dismissed outright without it being given a fair chance.

      • Has RD ever discussed why she introduced nesting? Did I miss that part?

        • I just get the impression it was just something being tested to see if it improved the site experience. I don’t remember her going into alot of detail or giving a bunch of heads up on the format. On the first day the nesting was played with. We nested in older post first and newer post first(which felt really hard to follow imo) and then she polled us.

  65. when I first started reading blogs (actually, my first was this one a little over a year ago ) I thought all these different posts were there so one could choose which one seemed interesting. I didn’t realize there was an ‘active’ post and the others were old posts. so I talked to myself a lot.

    I can see two sides here. if you want to catch up at night without participating, just seeing what others have said, the nesting is really helpful. or if you want to comment on something specific…. but you have to realize your comment may not be seen if the conversation has moved on.

    on the other hand, I understand how lurkers feel about joining a ‘conversation’ that’s all over the map with no obvious coherence. that’s kinda what’s fun about it if you’re just as committed to socializing as making your opinion known, or if you’re ready to have an opinion on whatever is being discussed.

    I don’t really think one’s inherently better than the other – I prefer one though.

  66. Pat J — I think our reasons are pretty much the same. I agree with how you feel whole-heartedly.

  67. KB!! Hi!! xoxo

  68. Hi Pat! Fuzzy and I had dinner on Saturday and you were discussed so fondly 🙂

  69. Not trying to be a flamethrower, but taking a poll then not honoring the outcome was confusing. Then to be kind of “dismissed” along the way was rather disheartening.

    No one is forcing us to comment but on the other hand if our preferences are not considered, why bother.

  70. I am not part of the inner circle here, but I voted against nesting, because I like to cling to the old ways! We’ve had way too much of the wrong kind of change. I have enjoyed using nesting in such posts as Dakinikats, however, as she responds to nuances in questions we have. Socially, I can see no-nesting may be preferable, and if old-timers are sad about nesting, it probably should be eliminated or modified as above.

  71. kiki: I am flattered! Thanks for mentioning it.

  72. nesting leaves me scared and confused
    (rocking back and forth in a fetal position; thumb in mouth)

  73. on the other hand, I understand how lurkers feel about joining a ‘conversation’ that’s all over the map with no obvious coherence.

    It used to be you could pick up where you left and follow the conversation through how ever many threads to the present.

    You knew what everyone said while you were gone, and it was all in linear sequence.

    Or you could just join in at any point. It was never meant to be exclusive.

  74. Just saw a headline on memeorandum “Jack Cafferty talks about his crush on Michelle Obama.”

    Bleeeeuughh!!! 😛

    BTW … hate the nesting.

  75. lililam — who said you are not part of the inner circle? Yes you are — as much as I am at least (and I consider myself essential here! LOL).

    I do agree with nesting in dakinikat’s posts — she covers topics that most of us are not familiar with & she takes the time to directly answer all of our comments/questions to clarify. It is almost like being in an Econ class in her threads (in a good way 🙂 )

    • thanx, angie. Maybe we just need fancier programmers to make it all things to all people. And I wouldn’t mind taking a class from Dak, either!

  76. elderj — LMAO!

  77. lililam: It has nothing to do with an inner circle as all poster, old and new should be welcome, it was being kind of dismissed that irked me.

    I don’t have time to go up and down the thread trying to keep track of comments and often we may lose new people who may feel they are not being acknowledged as a result. That is all I am attempting to convey.

    My being here or not does not add or subtract anything from the topic at hand, I am aware of that. But I question why we were invited to vote then finding out it mattered not.

    • You’re being far too modest, pat. You have a really pithy way of expressing yourself which is clearly appreciated. I’ve been wondering what happened to you and am glad to see you reappear.

  78. I’ve never felt that it was exclusive. but people keep delurking to say they feel like it is.

    I don’t really see how nesting fixes that anyway.

    • Wellll , kiki, I’ve spent a great deal of time (too much) following this blog since last spring. For a long time, I didn’t post, just lurked. When I finally did begin posting, I found that my comments rarely received a reply, but I just shrugged this off, as TC was the place that most closely reflected my views/beliefs and sense of humor. Since nesting was recently initiated, I’ve received numerous responses to my comments and felt far more interactive. So, that’s one view.

  79. KJMontana — does Jack Cafferty realize that Michelle is a woman? Because that man hates all women to the very bottom of his cold, black, shriveled up heart.

  80. Well Ang

    It looks like a watered down cramdown may get a vote.


  81. I’m gonna go check my eyelids for holes for a few hours, but when I return I’m gonna do a nesting/no nesting post for manana.

    Adios mis amigos y amigas – hasta los huevos querida!

  82. Pat J — IMNSHO I think your being here matters a lot!

  83. myiq — bon soir mon amour!

  84. On a lot of blogs, I don’t comment after a post gets too many comments. That number shifts but for most blogs, it’s about 25. This blog is unusual for me that I post all the way through.

  85. angie, one problem with nesting is that it tends to encourage me to make possibly inappropriate impulsive comments such as the one I made to you at 11:40.

  86. CWaltz, interesting article. I wonder what will happen

    from Maxine Waters:

    She said the banking industry still has a stranglehold on Congress. “These guys rule this place,” Waters said.

  87. CWaltz — thanks for the heads up! Another “wait & see” imo (i.e. will it pass & how will it work). Unfortunately, from what I read I think Maxine Waters has it right:

    Some liberals said the new limits were inappropriate. Rep. Maxine Waters, D-Calif., said many mortgage companies make it impossible for homeowners to even complete a phone call to their lender, much less work out more affordable loan terms.

    “I don’t think people ought to have to go through that mess” to get mortgage relief in bankruptcy courts, Waters said.

    She said the banking industry still has a stranglehold on Congress. “These guys rule this place,” Waters said.

    I know for a fact that the banks will not even talk to homeowners after modifications until they are at least 3 months in default. I don’t see how this new plan is going to create much relief.

  88. I’m no expert, but I think I like the cram down thing because it’s decided on an individual basis, case by case. that seems to make more sense than sweeping legislation.

    • The watered down version means the judges will have less of a say in rewriting the mortgage. The original cramdown gave bankruptcy judges broader authority to act in the best interest of the person appearing before him applying for relief.

      The industry interfered so that people can’t use this to renegotiate the terms in court now that the home is worth less.

  89. lilliam — LMAO — see, I would have missed your 11:40 comment if you hadn’t pointed it out!! I pretty much set that up for you, but I honestly didn’t mean that, I meant that Caffety is such a P-I-G pig I can’t imagine him “crushing” on any woman!!

  90. “Under the terms of the agreement, judges would have to consider whether a homeowner had been offered a reasonable deal by the bank to rework his or her home loan before deciding whether to take judicial action to lower the interest rate or principal.”

    There’s that legal word “reasonable” again. How are judges going to be able to interpret that consistently.

  91. kiki — the non-compromise cramdown would be on an individual basis too with bk judges deciding on a case by case basis. This compromise cramdown just looks like it is going to create delays in homeowners getting relief by having to jump through needless/impossible hoops before even getting their cases before a bk judge.

  92. ok. I guess I meant a cramdown generally. the non-compromise one 🙂

    what exactly is the problem with it? the banking lobby? isn’t a cramdown better than a default at this point?

  93. ah, ok, I re-read. people have to prove they’ve tried other avenues, and banks make it impossible to try other avenues.

  94. kiki — actually to the bank, no it isn’t because if the house goes into default, the banks have insurance to cover it –they’d rather take x dollars now than take less over 30 years (or however long the mortgage is for).

    And for those critics like Santelli who say “why should my tax $ pay for someone else’s mortgage) I say: you are thinking short term. Helping your neighbor not go into foreclosure HELPS you (in that your property values don’t keep going down). Giving $ directly to the bankers (which is what we are doing) only helps the bankers & doesn’t do squat for you. Personally, I’d rather have my $ going toward helping my neighbor, myself & stabilizing the economy in general.

    • by “less” I meant smaller payments –over a 30 year mortgage that is more $ but the banks seem to have the “a bird in the hand” attitude toward foreclosures.

    • Santelli actually made me kinda angry. Alot of the folks who are in trouble weren’t all irresponsible. They lost their jobs due to a poor economy. It’s kind of hard to afford a mortgage when you are on unemployment. Furthermore I think the banks should have to be in some way shape or form culpable for giving these individuals mortgages they couldn’t afford. How does letting the house go into foreclosure do that in any way? Why is it that banks deserve to be bailed out but individuals who listened to financial professionals should be stuck with the consequences of a bad decsion. It all smacks of that “personal responsibility and pull yourself up by the bootstraps” crap the GOP is always attempting to sell.

  95. it’s like trying to explain to someone with no kids, or with kids in private schools, that improving public schools really is better for neighborhoods and for all of us.

    I wish more people would scream about their tax dollars paying for wars and killing innocent people. evidently that’s cool, but helping a neighbor………

  96. Angie, you nested with yourself!

  97. s’anyway, I flew home from Florida tonight (and boy, are my arms tired! ) plus I’m freezing here in that frozen wasteland known as Alabama, so I think I ought to go to bed. ugh, back to work tomorrow. so hard after a week off…..

    night all!

  98. kiki — perfect analogy about the better public schools helping all of us (whether we have kids or not) by improving society in general — same thing with helping people stay out of foreclosure — regardless of how they ended up with a mortgage payment that was “more than they could afford” (which is the anti-help your neighbor crowd’s talking point) the economy will stabilize FASTER by helping them stay out of foreclosure.

    • Hillary had good things to say about this, starting as far back as fall of 2007. She wrote a paper about it, “Let’s keep people in their homes” if that tells you her approach.

      When a house is foreclosed and stands vacant it’s vandalized or at least not maintained. And the family becomes homeless at worst (with lots of social cost) or at best starts competing for rental units which drives up rental prices, which hurts other renters. Thus a virtuous person who chose to rent instead of buy, finds himself paying higher rent, while the foreclosed house stands vacant.

      HIllary had more to say, this is just what I remember at the moment.

      • She was one of the first to call for a moratorium and have a discussion on the housing issue. Sigh. I miss her voice on domestic issues ALOT.

  99. kiki — I was correcting myself not nesting (but I do like the nesting for corrections since we can’t edit). 🙂

    night kiki!

  100. I’m off to bed to everyone.

    Good night all!

  101. Good night angie, kiki.

  102. I would have absolutely no objections to nesting if the new comments were somehow highlighted. I know it’s possible to do that! (Although I don’t know how word press is set up; perhaps it’s not possible with word press.) I agree with angie that it simply becomes very time-consuming to go back and re-read all the comments to see if someone responded to something you wrote hours ago. Is there no way to set up the nesting so that new comments are highlighted?

    In principle I think nesting is a good idea – but it needs to be perfected to be fully effective.

    • You can opt up to be notified by e-mail if any of your comments receive a new response. I remember seeing that option somewhere at the outset.

      • I did that on another site. Prepare to come back to a full mailbox.

        • Right! I see the “notify by e-mail” option and I don’t want to clog my mail box. And you have to be a participant in a particular discussion to be notified. Sometimes I just read with nothing new to add!

      • Comments are coming to me at my Gmail account and are all in one long ‘conversation’ and do NOT seem to be coming through nested! Even though I think maybe those same comments really were going up nested on this webpage.

        So reading on Gmal thing is like scrolling down through a bunch of non-nested comments, because Gmail puts them all on one ‘page’

        • So that puts you back where you started. Scratch that ‘solution’.

          • No, actually it’s the best of both worlds. At Gmail something pops up at the bottom of the ‘conversaation’ page saying ‘new posts, update?’ so I hit ‘update’ and look at the bottom of the page to see if the new posts look interesting. If they are, like yours [smiley] then I come here find them in a nest to read in context and reply.

          • I am flattered. But also a bit too dim to understand the ‘new posts, update’ scheme without seeing it firsthand. Glad to hear it works for you!

          • Kat5, on March 4th, 2009 at 1:17 am Said:
            I am flattered. But also a bit too dim to understand the ‘new posts, update’ scheme without seeing it firsthand.

            Yeah, you kind of have to be there. It takes a Gmail account and some little box about email checked here at Confluence. Then Gmail makes it pretty obvious.

  103. OT- (what isn’t), but there is a wonderful post at Hillary is 44, comparing Hillary with Joseph of the New Testament. It is very well done. The site is on the blog roll. I was unaware until a few weeks ago that the site was still intact.

  104. OT- (what isn’t), but there is a wonderful post at Hillary is 44, comparing Hillary with Joseph of the Old Testament. It is very well done. The site is on the blog roll. I was unaware until a few weeks ago that the site was still intact.

  105. woops- changed new to old, but didn’t mean to duplicate- I am tired, sorry!

  106. Some may recall the post over at Liberal Rapture about an email exchange between between “a submitter to L.R. and a reasonably well known writer?” http://www.liberalrapture.com/2009/02/obama-adoration-v-hillary-reality.html

    Cannonfire has apparently confirmed the identity of one of them: http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2009/03/confirmation-man-observed.html

    The exchange was between a well-known writer who supports Obama and a black female Democratic activist who got to know the real Barack Obama, and who now has some very critical things to say about Our Dear Leader. Since LR hid the names of both correspondents, some of my readers suspected forgery.

    We now know that the exchange is real. Cannonfire readers, especially our resident linguistic analyst G, identified the pro-O writer as James Kunstler.

    • Ah, thanks for the update. I’ve been following that story on C’fire the past few days and was inclined to believe the exchange was authentic, as the evolution of the black female D activist (now apparently identified) sounded quite plausible (not to mention, rather PUMA-like).

      • God, I love Obots. They seem to think “FDR was seen as a conventional politician/people thought Lincoln was a dumb country bumpkin” is a great argument. Well, by all means then, let’s find the very least qualified, most intellectually incurious person available and hope lightning will strike again! I can think of no better strategy!

        Of course, they also seem to think “You supported Hillary, didn’t you?” is their ace in the hole–no wonder they think Obama is such a genius.

  107. Woops, can’t nest this because your nested post had no ‘reply’ link.
    Kat5, on March 4th, 2009 at 12:44 am Said:
    In that case, how frequently would you…. [insert smiley face]
    [smiley too] Hard to say. I’m into dull and substantive, so it would depend on how many of that kind of nest turned up. But I’d sure find it easier in a nest than chasing it through a chronological party thread.

    • You could’ve responded to your own comment, and since it had already been followed by another (mine), your reply would’ve nested below my response to you.

      Now, how clear is that?

      Re dull and substantive….there are times when we could probably use some adult supervision.

      • Hey…….

        Just because we’re not “erudite” like the Wonkette foilk doesn’t mean we’re immature 😉

    • fsteele, when you get to that last nesting level, you can just keep replying at the lowest stage possible, and it will appear right below, within the nest. Look forward to your comments.

      • Thanks. If nested stays, I may hang around here a lot! I’m finding it much easier posting than my usual hangouts, hillaryis44 and thenewagenda.

  108. fsteele substantive is not dull! We love the substantive posts. You should totally speak right up even if the other stuff is going on. 😉

    • Thanks. On non-nested though that’s a lot of paste and cut for me. I like to see what I’m answering, and copying the timestamp of the post I’m answering etc adds up.

      Must go to bed now….

  109. I miss Hillary too lililam. A helluva lot. But great to see her out in the world, making friends, keeping us safe. Will check out the Joseph post.

    This is boring. But the CFO of the Swiss UBS bank is going to testify to the Senate on providing borderline legal tax advice to wealthy clients. What the article does not mention is that Robert Wolf, head of UBS in the Americas, sits on Obama’s closest and most active Economic Advisory Board. That’s embarrassing.


  110. Thank god that he can touch himself and be purified from this sea o corruption he seems to be up to his holy neck in. 🙂

    • Nice. 🙂

    • Yeah, didn’t somebody from Chicago write “I knew Obama before he was a virgin”?

      • LOL The scary thing about him is that, like Bush, he seems to believe his own press at this point. You can’t be the President’s drug addicted loser son or a sleazy Chicago politician doing and have a Messiah complex, can you? So at what point do you develop this affliction?

        • With Bush II, after he got the green light on Iraq. Up to then, he was a nervous wreck. With Obama, I’m thinking maybe after his 2004 Convention speech in Boston. Born but tucked away until Super Tuesday. So it’s sunk in pretty deep by now.

          Ironically, the only time Barry has seemed human or authentic to me was at the end of that last Philadelphia debate where he got thrashed by Hill. Course the next day he gave her the finger. Emotionally, he’s a fourteen year old.

        • Before he wrote his first autobiography, obviously. Or maybe as editor of the student Law Review.

  111. About nested comments: I used to read the entire thread, now if I read at all, its to skim it. I prefer the old format and will be happy to see it return.

    With all the time I’ve saved by not reading nested threads I read a novel last weekend (first in years): Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. It is spooky how prescient she was, considering the current state of things and that it was published in the early 50’s. Most of the dialogue could be pulled right from today’s headlines.

  112. Yes, I prefer the old format, except on Dakini’s posts.

    Getting thru entire threads is a lot more tiring than before-although the econ/pol situation is tiring in general.

    It seems like the place has lost its character-beach hut or whatever.

    That said nesting is useful for correcting your own comments.

    Perhaps, instead of turning off nesting, posters could say whether they prefer nesting or not on their threads.

    Like Lililam said at 11.45 “one problem with nesting is that it tends to encourage me to make possibly inappropriate impulsive comments “.

    At times I feel embarassed that anyone following the avatar new comments on the left, should click on many of mine just to find they are completely insubstantial nested replies to other comments. That’s a lot of clicks for something that in a straight chronological order can just be scrolled down when reading.

  113. I’ve been here a long time, and basically the only comments I make are inappropriate, unsubstantial, impulsive comments. People are tolerant, I wouldn’t worry about that.

  114. Maybe we could do something at night, where people who want to nest can nest and everyone else can not nest. Yeah, some comments might be missed that way, but then with fewer nestings it might be easier/quicker to scroll through and catch up on them if you have a minute.

  115. Hi to the remaining “y’all” !!

    I honestly like the nesting better, but in so many instances for me, I’m so late getting here it’s no biggie. If I am here during the day or early evening I like the nesting because I’m current with other posters on here at the same time and it’s more conversational.

    If RD puts up another poll, I’d vote against nesting because so many do not like it and it has discouraged their coming here.

  116. Hi Fredster! Maybe someone can do a tally of how many people are not coming becuse of one of the other (not who likes it but how many people are actually coming more or less because of it). I think so far angie and Pat have said they are not coming as much because of the nesting, and I think one person said he or she is coming more.

    For anyone who’s still here, Cinie has the awesome posts up on her front page right now. Cinie rules.

  117. Seriously-some blog formats do allow the reader to choose how they wish to view comments, flat or threaded, but I don’t know if W.P. allows that or not. I haven’t seen a word press blog with that option. That would give everyone their preference.

    I’ll check Cinie’s site in a minute.

    I wanted to pass along that at Liberal Rapture, John has put up a most excellent post about PUMA and what is/is not considered to be PUMA. I have to say i agreed with a lot of what he wrote.

  118. I saw some of the comments like from donna darko when i was at Liberal Rapture reading the email exchange. I didn’t read all of it because I figured there’d be Obots and….up to here with Obots. lol

  119. backtrack’s financial plan explained in detail.




  120. fredster,
    do you mean the post at Liberal Rapture by tamerlane about how Pumas have “morphed” into bitter domestic violence advocates? This one?

    Certain animals, like bunny rabbits and baby chicks, are hard to sex. A big cat should be easy. And despite some recent claims, not all PUMAs are female.

    P.U.M.A., in case you just returned from Mars, stands for “Party Unity My Ass.” The acronym debuted on June 2, 2008, posted by a guy on a blog run by a woman, in response to DNC calls for unity following the travesty of the 5/31 RBC meeting. I saw the post and declared myself a PUMA that very day on my favorite blog. The name PUMA – and the concept – spread like wildfire across the blogosphere and the real world.
    i’ve got news for tamerlane. SM is a WOMAN!!!!

  121. Yeah, I know GAgal, but didn’t correct it. Still, I think he was on target with PUMA not being specifically a feminist movement. We support feminist ideals but that is not the be-all and end-all of PUMA.

    My internet has been acting goofy all evening. It’s fine for a good bit and then, boom, it’s dead. I think AT&T is doing work up the street and they probably screwed something up. 😡

  122. fredster, here’s a little more…
    Sadly, key PUMA cadres have already cast (in their minds a least) the future form of PUMA. It is to be a radical feminist organization. Ironically, the very activists who once denied that PUMA was just a handful of bitter women are now intentionally limiting membership to bitter women. This metamorphosis started gradually after the election, but has picked up steam.

    Darragh Murphy’s PUMApac, which originally did some good work combating the charade of the Denver convention, has openly morphed into a battered women’s support group. From a “[male chauvinist] Pig of the Week” award and a “woman-lynching” forum, to new-age mumbo-jumbo about the spirit of the tribe’s matriarchs, Murphy’s blog bears little resemblance today to its avowed goal of being “a voice for the 18 million Democrats who have been told our votes and our voices don’t matter.”

    I’d joined PUMApac early on, believing its stated mission. A few months ago, after a running online debate with Murphy and her gang, during which I was variously:

    *accused of perpetuating the oppressive patriarchy;

    *told that lesbianism made my existence superfluous;

    *advised I should be thankful I was allowed on a women’s blog, but must be a respectful guest;

    I quit.

    Oh well, some people get it. Some don’t. I can understand if some men might be offended. But men who understand feminism should not. Pumas can’t un-elect Obama now, can we?

  123. The writer sounds upset that some women have found solace in banding together to work towards advancing feminism after the cycle. I don’t see aproblem with those that have made this a priority making it their priority. In my opinion I am happy that there are PUMAs out there that I can trust to keep their eyes on misogyny. I don’t think it is fair for him to charecterize all PUMA sites as purely feminist though and I don’t think it is fair to charecterize them as exclusionary.

    The post seemed contradictory. You can’t claim PUMA is public domain and then insist that people who are using it to further causes like feminism aren’t PUMA. If it is public domain then they have just as much claim to the term as those that believe the mission should be reform. Frankly, I’d like to see more than one mission group within PUMAs. I’d like to see PUMA sentinels on government and reforming it(with that as their primary function), I’d like to see PUMA sentinels focused on bringing about equality and fairness to womankind(with that as their primary function), I’d like to see PUMA sentinels in the gay and lesbian community who will fight to ensure they get the fairness they deserve(with that as thier primary function). Unlike the poster I think with varied primary interests if the groups were able to band together when one group is on high alert we could still be effective. JMHO of course.

    • (nodding) but if Pumapac is in fact going that way, it will have less to do with Hill’s vision for the 18 million, imo. The cause for women requires a societal makeover which means results from numbers and leadership. Been there done that with the f*uck everyone else strategy which tends to fragment and be marginalized over time. I always thought tamerlane was a woman, but what do I know.

  124. I’ve had this video bookmarked for months. Now the audio has been silenced. Why? Guess they didn’t pay their dues.

    • It says the “audio track was not authorized by the WMG” What the hell is the WMG? And yes, it’s on my list of favorites as well….

  125. What the hell is the WMG?

    Warner Music Group

  126. I hate nesting….there….I said it.

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