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Sunday: Divide and conquer with racism

I was going to write about how David Broder is Public Enemy Number One.  However, it’s more disturbing to see how accusations of racism are cropping up just when *real* unity would seem to be very important.

Let me just say for the record that unless Barack Obama is Jesus Christ himself, he is subject to the same comparisons and criticisms as any other imperfect human being on earth.  I have not seen any evidence of his perfection so as far as I’m concerned, he’s accountable for what he does or doesn’t do.  The extra melanin in his skin only gives him an advantage in the sun.  It doesn’t confer infallability on the bearer.

Ok, now that we’ve gotten that out of the way, let’s talk about why the renewal of accusations of racism directed against those of us who dare to criticize Obama are so destructive.  As I see it, it prevents the left from coalescing and gaining critical mass to oppose the unDemocratic policies that some of his banker friends and advisors would like to pursue.  As long as the Obamanation is stoked to stamp out racism, as defined by Obama’s friends, we can’t get ourselves a posse to take the real bastards on.

So, all you Obamaphiles out there have to ask yourselves, when it comes to accusations of racism, what’s it worth to you?  Is it worth your committment to social responsibility and an economy that’s fair to people who work?  Is it worth having only half the strength you need to prevent the dismantling of Social Security?  Because if you spend half your time and energy trying to distance yourself from those of us you wrongly accuse of racism, that’s what you’re going to end up with.  In my opinion, it’s much better to put down the gun and coordinate your messages with us.

Think about it.

In the meantime, we’ve gotten mixed reviews over the nested comments. In general, the edge is going to having them nested so you can actually reply to someone.  But the “newest at top” is not faring so well.  So, I am putting it up for a vote.  Majority wins.

94 Responses

  1. An excellent post. But–

    The problem is that the Bots don’t want to get up a posse to go after the bad guys. Because if the posse actually caught up with them, it would find them in a heart-shaped bed in flagrante with BamBam himsef–and the Bots just couldn’t tolerate that kind of truth.

  2. They must be desperate. Or experiencing the adverse effects of cognitive dissonance. Obotia is pulling out the same nasty, tired old chesnuts that they did during the primaries… because they got away with it the last time. And they’re not bright enough to come up with anything else, apparently.

    It was enraging the first time. Now, it’s simply dull. And pathetic — I said during the primaries that r@ce, for these twits, is a shiny plaything that they pick up when convenient and toss down, all a-privileged, when they’re bored with it. It must be hard to invent constantly novel and exciting ways to be a sycophantic pr!ck.

  3. I want somebody to examine that “racist” cartoon. Who drew it? I wonder if that someone wasn’t encouraged to do that so the claim of racism could be used to deflect honest criticism from the actual deeds of Obama. Just like Obama looked and prayed for an opening agains Hillary to attack something as racist, So too, today the handlers of Obama are praying or “paying” for an occasion to yell racism. It is too convienient for this cartoon not to have been arranged for the benefit of BO. Just my opinion. BUT…

    • too tin foil hattish for me. I think they were just playing off the chimp mauling that happened in our area just like they explained. However, it was an unfortunate “gift” to those who have milked the “racism” cow dry and are casting about for something to replace it in this post-racial era; but have not yet found anything as guilt producing.

  4. Yeah, newest on top makes my brain work backwards as I read downwards to see what the reply was to.

  5. I voted. Oldest on top, definitely!! One, it respects history and encourages people to read other comments first. Two, newest on top is counterintuitive, especially when you have nesting – comment history going one direction, nesting history going the other direction. It’s a pain for both lurkers and commenters. Then when you add page breaks to newest on top, forgedaboudit.

    It’s the one thing Kos does better than Huffpo. Kos has nesting, oldest on top, no page breaks. If you want to see new comments right away, then just scroll down, no problem. Huffpo does the opposite, and it just encourages commenters to blather on top, discourages community imo. Also the Huffpo/Gawker way is a nightmare on portables, for readers and commenters. No page breaks si’l vous plait.

    Kos way encourages community. Huffpo/Gawker way encourages writers.

    • Amen, 3W. Putting newest comments on top is not unlike reading a book backwards – crazy making.

      • I always read my books backwards then I go see the movie to find out what it was about

  6. i heard someone (tv or radio) say that during the nomination/election phase, the candidate gets to choose the talking points on which he will give his speeches. once elected, the pres must deal with the top 5 or 6 issues and has no control over the talking points. well, throw a little race baiting and race innuendos around and you control the debate. well, i for one will criticize and comment on the issues as i see and will ignore the charges of racism. we all heard rev wright say he would be after obama with his agenda. well, all of these comments and incidents keep the heat off of obama, right where he doesn’t want it, and he gets to control his dialogue with the people. it will be interesting to see if any of the press have the guts to question obama on the question of cowardice…maybe obama himself is a coward, or maybe his non-african side is racist.

    • and when i said “the talking points on which HE will give HIS speeches” i am including women too as presidential candidates.

  7. They are going to have to put down their guns and admit they were wrong some time. It may as well be now.

  8. 3W–great point about encouraging community.

    We’re voting on two separate formatting issues. IMO. Nesting and order of comments. In order of preference, my vote would be:

    (1) Oldest first–no nesting

    (2) Oldest first–with nesting

    (3) Newest first–no nesting

    (4) Newest first–with nesting

    I voted for “oldest first,” but that choice alone did not allow me to express my preference one way or the other for nesting. As I said in a previous thread, I can live with nesting as long as the oldest comments are posted first.

    Thanks for giving us a vote, RD.

  9. OT, but I got an email from “Free Cash” that begins:

    This Sponsored Offer Is Exactly What President Obama Wants You To Do! If you have not read about the $1Triilion Dollar Stimulus Plan That Pres. Obama Signed This Past Week. From our View Point, Once again this plan will ONLY BENEFIT Those that can be Trusted To pay Back Loans!

    So, Does your Credit Score Suck? If so, Our Sponsor can Help you go from 450 to like over 700 only if you want it!

    it’s so tempting but I think I’ll pass……

  10. Again, a different point of view. And I can only speak for myself.

    One of the comforts throughout the day is The Confluence and the voices heard within. I like the fact that it has had a certain look about it. You can plug in anytime and find a conversation ensuing, day or night.

    I like the previous format. It satisfies my need for continuity. Depending upon the topic, the thread can often become long. But it is usually a topic that stirs debate, emotion, and opinion which makes it lively.

    “Nesting” for me has become a distraction of sorts. The ability to address another commentator is not lost since we have the ability to cut and paste a comment and keep the dialogue going as a rule.

    Just my two cents which may not add up to much but there it is.

  11. I voted ‘newest on top,’ but I guess I don’t really care. so take off one vote from that category 🙂

    • Far out! I see we’re already doing it. Whatever, seriously, I don’t care. As long as I can come here and get my daily reality fix 😉

  12. Nell, on February 22nd, 2009 at 6:38 pm Said:
    In order of preference, my vote would be:

    (1) Oldest first–no nesting

    (2) Oldest first–with nesting

    (3) Newest first–no nesting

    (4) Newest first–with nesting
    Ditto for me. My brain almost exploded earlier today trying to figure out newest first with nesting — yikes!! I had no idea how to read the comments.

  13. I like it the way it is now – newest first with nesting.
    As for racism accusations, the hysteria over NY Post has got to lengths that are bound to create a backlash. I was just reading about the protests on the Gothamist
    There is another more recent entry on the NAACP demanding the boycott of the Post.

  14. Yeah, kinda funny how they all started talking about racism again at the same time.

    Ain’t no such thing as a coincidence with Obamanation.

    • myiq2xu,

      What is your theory as to why they are bringing up racism at this time? Is it to prevent people from noticing the highway robbery that will take place tomorrow at the “entitlements” hoe-down?

    • And speaking of tinfoil hat (or not) theories, there is an interesting new post at Cannonfire. It seems that Sir Allen Stanford is an Obama supporter. And he has drug and CIA connections.

      • I read something last night about the general secretary of the US embassy in Ecuador being kicked out of the country because they said he was the CIA chief there. They are apparently covertly participating in the drug wars in Colombia and other latin american countries. We never hear anything about Latin America in the news. Chavez is about to put himself onto the throne of venezuela with an eye to colonizing cuba after Fidel dies and not a peep. What’s up with that?

        • I think Latin America is the CIA’s baby. They are still bringing in drugs, because every once in awhile a plane goes down and turns out to be loaded with coke. What about the meltdown in Mexico. I heard the government might collapse, but haven’t seen anything in the news about it. Of course I haven’t had the TV on today…

  15. I voted no nesting – because I’m a simple girl at heart. But, I can live with the will of the majority however it goes….

  16. I hate nested comments and I hate newest first nested comments even more.

    The Confluence has always been where the Stream of Consciousness and a Slough of ideas converge to form the River of Babble-on

    • The fact that I find myself in another matter of agreement this week is troubling.

    • I’m OK with the nesting, but I’d probably rather have the long conversation. It has never been that hard to reply to someone or tell who is replying to you.

      • I voted no to nesting…since in Omerica we will loose our right to vote secretly….

        Of course at the conflu the right to own you own vote is always respected

        • I voted no on the nesting too ~
          perhaps the poll should be asked differently

          one poll nesting vs no nesting….
          and if nesting wins then decide on its format.

          it just seems there is alot of resistance to the nesting by the regulars but that doesn’t seem to be what the results are showing.

          • I tell you Obot lurkers are voting for nesting to undermine us!

            They see we dont like the nesting….

            Well Here this what ever RD desides on Nesting or not then I stick with the conflu…so stupid Obots your little trick to do us in wont work …

            bunch of Putz’s and Schmucks!

    • where we sat down. and, yeah, we wept when we remembered Zion. For the wicked carried us away, captivity, required from us a song….. you know the rest

      • I’m replying to my own comment only to say that the comment above only makes sense if it comes right after Myiq’s commemt about the River of Babble-on. But it’s fo far from it and it appears as a new comment instead of as a reply to Myiq that it makes no sense.

  17. For once I find myself cheering for Capt. Spaulding.

    • Pat me too….your Michael will be on the PUR tonighta t blog talk radio….

      Afllong Gary and Mawm….the PUMA movements fav gay man!

      Dishing the dirt with Angie NC

  18. The new layout is giving me a headache. While I like the ability to Reply, I think that the new Replies appearing with the original comments means most of us won’t see them unless we go back and re-read all the comments in a thread to see if anyone has recently Replied to someone’s comment from 5 hours ago.

    • speaking for myself only: but with this new format, I go back to see if anyone replied to my reply. It’s also easier to tell that the reply was to my comment than when it appears way down below my comment.

  19. And why are new comments (not replies) on top? Who reads anything bottom to top?

  20. I guess I’m a creature of habit when it comes to The Confluence layout. I sort of like the reply feature, but I’m one of those people that reads the entire diary first, then reads all of the comments and then I comment if I have something to add. It’s sort of nice, if I come in late (as I sometimes do after the breakfast hour), to respond to a specific comment without scrolling all the way down the page to put in my two cents. I also like being able to avoid off-topic side conversations that sometimes occur. That being said, it’s a bit hard on my old eyes to follow the conversation in this new format. Anyway, my feelings are mixed about the format.

  21. I usually read the essay first, then the comments in order, and i like being able to watch as teh thread develops, the line of thinking that goes along with it. I don’t like the individual replies. I much prefer the old format, where a reply is more to the whole thread than one single post. The newest first is even more distracting.

    • I like the evolving discussion too.

      • maybe the thread should be divid and counquer the PUMA movement by forcing Obamabot style nested comments…..LOL

      • I like the evolving discussion. But this new format allows you to see what a later comment is in response to. In the old format, a response could be way down from the comment it’s responding to and not make sense because it’s out of context. Also the fact that the responses are indented is helpful

    • If the nesting thing stays but we go back to the oldest post first, we could all just not use the reply button and comment as we did in the past. Some people would still use them, but we could create an atmosphere where it is only if it MUST be replied to that one would use the nesting feature.

    • I’m kind of baffled by all the resistance to the new nesting format. It’s a much more logical format if discussion rather than linear, sometimes random commenting is what we value. I think, too, that new commenters will feel more welcome here with the nesting format, less intimidated by a network of seasoned regulars who respond to familiar cues. “Make new friends, but keep the old, the one is silver, the other gold.” Shouldn’t we welcome both silver and gold?

      • if something’s not broke, don’t fix it…

        • But if something can be improved…. My sense is that some of the resistance to nesting has to do with social concerns, not that this isn’t understandable. I suppose the question here is: what is TC’s raison d’etre, and how is it best served? As I’ve commented previously, nesting would seem to make TC more inviting to a greater number of commenters. Given the number of hits to date, there have to be one hell of a lot of invisible readers out there. Are some of them feel intimidated by the prospect of making their voices heard amidst such a well established, rowdy (yay) chorus?

          • Or it could be that someone already said what they were going to say. Or they’re readers not writers.

      • Yes, this new format makes much more
        sense, making the commentary easier to

  22. do not forget Fuzzy and Angie NC will be on No We Wont on PUMA United Radio tonight at 8 pm sharp…

    I is supposed to be an open thread….so anything goes as long as it does not contain koolaid…

  23. Charges of racism are easy to make and hard to defend against. They are meaningless except to the intended audience, in this case, bots. I know that my criticism of bad law-making has nothing to do with race. My decision not to vote for Obama had nothing to do with race and everything to do with character. If I am called a racist, that is supposed to give the poor ignorant bot license to stop listening to anything I have to say.

    The cry of racism is only one of the methods they are going to use to divide the country. Don’t fall for it. They continually hammer at Bush, and the Republicans, conservatives, at Democrats who just don’t get it, at rednecks, etc. There is no honesty in any of these accusations. They are trotted out to deflect real criticism of real policies and actions. The only purpose is to keep us fighting among ourselves. I have no interest in working with bots, and I couldn’t care less what they say of me.

    This kind of division led to the guillotining of “les aristos” (and eventually lots of regular folks who didn’t agree with the party line) in the French Revolution. It also was a favorite tactic in Germany and Russia in the early 20th century. If you allow this kind of behavior to continue you will eventually pay for it. The splitting of Americans into groups serves none of us well. The pitting of one against another will lead to ruin. Stop it.

  24. Please remove my post from moderation then delete this notice. Thank you.

  25. I will be doing an Omage to Sheri Tag my Fav TOD(Ticked off Democrat)

  26. Some one get my tinfoil hat …..but I believe the obots are voting to nest the comments they are consumate cheaters whe it comes to fixing polls!

  27. well calling into the show see you all there….

  28. I wish we had the old commenting format to go with the radio show…hey angie, sod and fuzzy! I’m listening but can’t chat on the blogtalk site.

  29. I voted oldest on top with nesting, but if we go back to the old format that’s cool also.

    I had posted a comment to Angie and it took **forever** to see if it was there. Even using the find option I didn’t see it.

  30. I like the “newest on top” if we have to have nesting. T

  31. To nest or not to nest, that is the question;
    Whether ’tis nobler in the mind to suffer
    The replies and re-replies of original comments,
    Or to take arms against a sea of nesting,
    And by opposing, end them. To die, to sleep;
    No more; and by a sleep to say we end
    The dialogue and the thousand natural lurkers
    That blogging is heir to — ’tis a consummation
    Devoutly to be wish’d. To die, to get some sleep;
    To get some sleep, perchance to dream.
    Ay, there’s the rub,
    For in that restless sleep what dreams may come,
    When we have shuffled off this internet coil,
    Must give us pause. The boredom and anxiety
    That makes calamity of so long life,
    For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
    Th’oppressor’s wrong, the proud man’s teleprompter,
    The pangs of a stolen election, the law’s delay,
    The insolence of office, and the spurns
    That proud pumas everywhere must endure,
    When she herself might make her peace
    With a simple revision. Who would bear such burden,
    To grunt and sweat under a life of recession,
    But that the dread of something after the fall,
    The undiscovered depression from whose bourn
    No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
    And makes us rather bear the new nesting format,
    Than fly to others that we know not of.
    Thus conscience does make confluencers of us all,
    And thus the native hue of resolution
    Is compromised by the pale cast of thought,
    And enterprises like TC of great pitch and moment
    With this regard their currents can turn awry,
    And lose the name of action.

  32. I like the nesting because it makes it easier to follow a particular discussion. We sometimes branch off in different thought processes in threads. This way it makes it easier to follow a discussion on a particular viewpoint. I do think it s better if the thread goes in a natural order so that you see the oldest(first) post is at the top. It makes it easier to follow IMO.

  33. New Post Up

  34. I just returned to this thread after a short break to find about 30 or so more comments than when I left. But, I had to scroll up, down, and sideways to find them since they’re scattered throughout the thread as “replies.” Arghhh!

    I change my mind. I’m no longer neutral. I hate nesting. There, I said it and I’m going to shut up now.


    • I’ve reset it to oldest on top. When you think about it, it’s no different than it was before except now you have the *option* of replying to a poster directly.
      I know the format can be a bit unsettling at first but I predict that in a couple of days, you will hardly remember what it was like before nesting. Give it time, Humans are very good at adapting.

  35. Nice try, myiq. But the nesters still have the edge. I think nested comments are here to stay, with oldest on top. I’ve reset it. Let’s give it a week and repoll. If there is strong sentiment to get rid of the nested threads, we will get rid of them.
    Tiiiiiimmmmmme is on my side (yes, it is)

    • Thought when BB said earlier today that we try nested for a week and see, that sounded right.

    • Is “view results” correct? Because that shows no nesting winning. Am I reading that correctly?

      • I think you are right, taw46. As a regular lurker, I just voted for “no nesting,” and the results showed it winning 44% vs 40% for “nesting with oldest on top.”

      • This is incorrect. There are three other answers that when combined total more than “no nesting”. Most people want nesting. They just differ over oldest or newest on top. The no nesters are slightly fewer in number.

  36. One of the three is “I don’t care”, so I don’t think that should count as a vote for nesting. On one of these threads, someone made a suggestion that I agree with. They said the vote first should be between nesting and no nesting. Then, if nesting wins, vote on which way to do that (oldest or newest on top).

    • As you state it RD, we have 3 categories as a vote for nesting, and one as a vote for no nesting. That doesn’t seem balanced, IMHO. That is why I think it would make sense to first have a vote with 2 categories: for nesting, against nesting.

  37. Is there going to be a run-off for the comment poll? The majority seems to favour nested comments, but the division comes with the preference for the order the comments. I think a run-off will be necessary to determine the true will of the majority (kind of like I wish to see for electing civic servants).

  38. I love this new format, because we can reply directly to people.

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