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Please Do Not Remove Label Under Penalty of Law…

I’ve been thinking about this subject for some time.  It began just after the election when the PUMAsphere began to ask itself “who are we now?” With the treatment of women during the election, sexism, misogyny, and the patriarchy took some of the front and center discussion.  What is a feminist? Who is a feminist? What must you believe to be a feminist? How must you act to be a feminist?  Alleged feminists were anointing our new president as a feminist icon while women everywhere chided Sarah Palin for not aborting her disabled child.  Women voted in droves for this new feminist messiah while they, and many so-called “feminists” implored the more qualified candidate (who just so happened to have a vagina) to step aside so the wearer of the penis could get through.  And yet, here we were…debating what earned you feminist cred.  Well, if that’s what a feminist is…then don’t you dare label me a feminist.  Sorry…I don’t need a label to tell me that women are denied their rightful place in society every minute of every day and I need to do something about it.  This label is just one more way to keep us divided while the other gender (a minority I might add) has the keys to the kingdom.

Another label is now also being tossed around as a weapon…political affiliation.  OK…I said it.  There are some who want to hold on tight to their Democratic label, others who have taken on the Republican label, and still some who call themselves Independents.  But what does it all mean?  Quite frankly, the large majority of us here supported Hillary Clinton.  We did so for many reasons, but mostly because we believed she was the most qualified candidate to deliver on issues that meant a great deal to us.  We became “PUMAs” when we saw that opportunity being ripped from our grasp by a Democratic Party that had other plans.  We were summarily thrown under the bus, called every degrading epithet they could mine from their pocket thesauruses, and labeled traitors to “the party.” Uhm…I don’t know about you, but I don’t have a masochistic streak that makes me want to run back to a Democratic party that was such a vicious abuser to me and to women in general.  So what about those who switched to the Republican party as a result of this election?  Just because they’ve assumed a new label does not convince me that they’ve abandoned the issues that led them to support Hillary in the first place.  Observing the conversations here over time, I know there is tremendous agreement on major issues between those who bear both labels.  So, why do we need that label either?

I’m willing to wager that those who frequent the Confluence have much more in common than they have differences.  Most “Dems” or “Repubs” are not purists anyway.  We initially united because we believe that the voters should be deciding who our leaders are, not through manipulation by party leadership.  We united because we realized the depth of patriarchal influences that attempted to destroy two very able and competent women: Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin.  One was a Democrat, one was a Republican.  We stand for truth, critical thinking, justice, and fairness.  So then, why do we need labels?  Why associate ourselves with “groups” that would abandon us for a new “younger, more urban” coalition and toss our votes aside as if they had no value?  Why associate ourselves with a label that inaccurately announces that we disagree with on a majority of core issues such as choice, gay rights, healthcare, equal rights for women, and help for the elderly and disabled? <

I propose we take a different tack.  Let’s leave our labels at the door when we enter this safe space and begin from a place of commonality  – What are our COMMON issues?  What unites us? Let’s focus on those as we go forward.  Don’t worry, the Obots and the rest of the label wearers will still continue to tell us what divides us – but we don’t have to listen.

TheRealKim had an excellent comment that summarized my thoughts very succinctly:

I considered myself a yella dawg until this election. Now, the only things I am sure of, are the principles I still hold dear. Championing the less fortunate and making sure there are programs in place, women’s rights, reproductive rights, the right to chose your partner in life; to name just a few.

Go ahead…you’re more than welcome to disagree with me.  Just don’t assign me any labels.

244 Responses

  1. someone here the other day referred to herself as an Equalist.
    thats a label I would proudly wear!

  2. I agree with you, SOD. I do think we need opposing sides in politics, but right now all the label are so mixed up, I don’t really know what they mean anymore.

  3. Label-free here — except for the label The Hotness. 🙂

  4. Well boomer..they can keep their opposing sides. That gives us more to choose from. But we don’t have to be who they want us to be anymore.

    We’re free…

  5. If we have to have a label, how about Pragmatists. We do what we have to do to get what will advance our agenda. We vote for those who will walk our walk.

  6. Maybe once we find our ultimate common ground, we’ll have a label we can all wear and agree on.

  7. Boomer – speaking of the apocalypse, did you see this article?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123479486131792981.html

  8. By taking off our labels, we are free to like whomever we choose, rather than rubber stamping the choices made by the DNC. We are real bi-partisans, as we can appreciate the splendor of Hillary Clinton and greatness of Sarah Palin at the same time. I think we embody the best of both parties, while Obama & Co. embodies the worst of both parties.

  9. Angie — “The Hotness” — ok..you can have that one. 🙂

  10. I am a labelist — I label people

  11. SOD – can I still be scrubs?

    Nice summary post of how we should deal with the divisions.

  12. elderj — lol!

  13. elderj — LOL! I admit, I label people too (1) those I talk to and (2) morons. My social circle is getting rather small. 🙂

  14. I just want to be well-balanced

  15. Scrubs..absolutely. It’s a label we could all aspire to.

  16. I guess after reading boomer’s post, we’ll be more worried about whether our label is: dumpster diver, cannibal, or food forager. Now that’s something to worry about!

  17. SOD: I say label them with the same word: Useless.

  18. You said it reg…

  19. RD has done a wonderful thing here by creating this safe space for us.

  20. There are two types of people in the world:

    those that agree with me and,

    those who spend their weekends in orgiastic frenzies of devil-worshipping on top of mountains while sacrificing their innocent children into the volcanic fires of h3ll while plotting the overthrow of the US in preparation for a drug besotted, atheistic one world system which will demand total allegiance from everyone and eat alive their young while using the bodies of the sick and elderly as fuel for their roasting fires….

    not that there’s anything wrong with that.
    🙂

  21. elderj — ROFLMAO!

  22. I’ll give Ann this though, sometimes she’s right.

    And sometimes, Nancy’s even competent.

  23. Reg — re: both Nancy & Ann — even a broken clock is right twice a day.

  24. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

    Not that there’s anything wrong with that. OMG that’s funny.

  25. SOD,

    We were discussing the subs in the last thread. But it must be OK, because it happened quite awhile ago. Disturbing though.

  26. Feelings familiar
    In my own head
    Alone in thoughts
    Sometimes there is dread

    Be left alone
    A need to remove
    Easy thing to do
    There is so much to prove

    Bridges collapsing
    Sudden events
    Rebuilding not likely
    Never forget

    Accomplishments
    Much to be proud
    Still the answers are missing
    Refuse to live in the clouds

    Great people to know
    Living up to the hype
    Not sure where it’s going
    You will be all right

    The will is strong
    Watch for success
    Know you will reach it
    There is no doubt about this

  27. Very nice, Taggles.

  28. {{{{ applauding taggles for the reading of her poetry }}}}

    and {{{{ looking over my glasses with one of “those looks” }}} at elderj. 😉 LMAO.

  29. bb – well I’m just trying to be non-judgmental… 😉

  30. BTW…this post is dedicated to my very dear afrocity. 🙂 {{{ sending her a big virtual hug }}}

  31. elderj — as an aside…it’s not about being judgmental. It’s that the labels create judgment by virtue of their implied meanings. (and no one can even agree on what those implied meanings are).

    I believe truly in my heart of hearts, you and I have more in common than we have differences. And where there are differences, I would hedge a bet that we could find some common ground.

    That’s what makes us different here at the Confluence.

  32. brb y’all!

  33. SOD — yeah, I feel lost. I am so disappointed in NOW, MS Magazine, Katie Couric. I fit in no where. I am sick of being asked for more taxes. I have always been a fiscal conservative and thought I was liberal. After being called a racists for having a John McCain sign in my yard and being yelled at by strangers for it I grew sick of the liberals and their better than now attitude. Try living in the Berkeley area of California — every one of them think their shit doesn’t stink and would drop to their knees and swallow hard if Obama appeared before them.

    Only label I want is the PUMA label.

    I love driving my vehicle with my NOBAMA sticker, PUMA sticker — I pass all the cars with Obama stickers so they can see mine – then I brake to make sure they see it !!

  34. PLUS…if we shed our labels, we are free to be critical of those who remain trapped in their labels despite how they really feel.

  35. oh, uh – stuck in moderation for my potty mouth

  36. ty bb and sod. it isn’t something that will go down in the history books as some great poem, but it helps sometimes and I felt like sharing it. i am happy to know you liked it.

  37. boomer — I can’t rescue people from moderation anymore. Can you pull Simo out? ABG is staring at her with a fork and knife in hand.

  38. just playing devils advocate here, but aren’t we labeling ourselves as non labelers.

  39. taggles… is that the “edge” of the circle I keep hearing about? 🙂

  40. taggles – I’m already on record as a labelist

  41. taggles — can you get people out of moderation?

  42. I am not sure, after reading the last few posts, if I am being asked to censor my comments out of political correctness and to be more sensitive and polite because someone may interpret my posts as hurting the feelings of others.

    If so, then I too must absent myself from commenting. There is a need for a two party system and each has defined their political niche. At this juncture, each side needs a complete overhaul. Both share blame about how they have managed to misdirect this country.

    If pointing that out has now become unfashionable owing to what is facing us, then I confess I am unable to dilute my comments or feelings to accommodate. There are times, and there will be times, when maintaining this level of discourse becomes impossible to uphold. Whoever deserves to be called out from either side must expect that criticism. But if it is to be meted out with a desire to be polite I doubt that I can meet those standards going forward.

  43. *waving madly*
    ok back to work…ugh…

  44. not sure what an edge of a circle is.

  45. A wise old woman told me years ago that Labels are what separate us and don’t ever let anyone saddle you with a label and ride you.

    This article was waiting to be written.

    Labels bite.

  46. Pat — don’t misunderstand. It’s not about being polite.

  47. native 1 used the word equalist several days ago. I liked it because it does say what we want, Equal rights, equal expectations. The word feminist has been so misused my many that it lost its meaning.
    I kind of stole it from Native1 and started using it. I hope there are no hard feelings.
    As far as labels go it depends on the situation if I am liberal or conservative. Most of us are both.
    The main label is I am Me. I like Me.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  48. If I can shed that label I can step back and see that the “label” applies to some organization – Not me.

    Sure, you can have the two party system. but we found out what blind loyalty to that system brings.

    That’s all.

  49. Pat, I think I agree somewhat. If we are not able to discuss personal ideological differences, disregard party labels for the moment, what will we discuss.

    The label might not be there, but the ideological differences exist.

    Democrats should not be afraid to discuss bad republican ideas and republicans should not be afraid to discuss bad democratic ideas and vice versa and every which way to sunday.

    If I want to say rat f*cking republicans, I want to be able to say rat f*cking republicans.

    We hear it every which way to sunday about dems. I am not defending dems.

    And if we really don’t belong to either party, what is the problem.

    If this is truly a board where free thought flows it must be allowed to flow from all ends.

  50. Brief clarification: I consider myself a conservative NOT a republican.

  51. So, why bother with labels? we can still discuss the issues unfettered by alignment with a party.

  52. Hey everyone…popping in for a second. I’ve been moving all weekend and thoughts just like SOD’s have been running through my head in my copious spare time. LOL

    All I can say is, I totally agree with my beloved Viewian. Further, I think that those of us who are Clinton supporters are the types of people who appreciate non-partisanship. Non-partisanship means good government that works, with no labels. That, to me, was the essence of the “Third Way.”

    Non-partisanship is, of course, very different than bi-partisanship.

    Bi-partisanship means, at this juncture in our history, that Democrats have to cave to the worst, most ludicrous ideas coming from Republicans, or else David Broder will wag his index finger at them. Bi-partisanship does not have good governance as its goal; instead, its true goal is to please the Village, of which, somehow, Mr. Broder has become the Chief Idiot.

    That is why none of us PUMA types are impressed by DINOs like Obama who do things like cut funding for birth control in order to achieve bi-partisanship. We see that his goal has nothing to do with We the People, and everything to do with keeping the media lurv that won him this past election.

    Hope you’re all doing well, and I will catch you later on in the week.

  53. But elderj….do you think we (I mean you and those with more liberal leanings) have major differences of opinions on political issues that we could not reconcile with a good discussion?

    This is a serious question.

  54. Taggles — exactly!

  55. We have never been known to hold back on calling our own ratf*ckers. Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, the list is endless. We have done the same with both the leaders in the feminist movement and the Obama campaign from the primaries until now. No problem at all registering our disgust with the Dems, feminists, MSM, talking heads, all those who contributed to the never ending narrative of Obama.

    Yet when approaching the Repub contribution to the present state of affairs, it appears that we are being asked to relax our resentment because their may be those who are sensitive to that side of the issues. I guess I am having difficulty separating my outrage at both sides but must be less critical out of respect for the other side.

    And being upfront about it, I just cannot do it without feeling as if I were choking on my own words.

  56. You should be free to say what you want without fear of offending someone because of their label.

  57. We’re a vestige of coherent debate here. One of the few left I believe. Let’s maximize it.

  58. what happened to RD’s tinfoil hat post from earlier?

  59. She’s apparently working on it — I’m sure she’ll put it up later.

  60. I have earned the right to my beliefs,just as the rest of you have.
    When there are on going discussions, we all have the right to express our opinions. I have not yet seen any personal attacks just disagreements about ideas.
    If someone gets hurt every time someone does not agree with them and discusses the party they chose to join, they will spend a lot of time unhappy.
    I have lived in Democratic and Republican neighborhoods. I have seen good and bad in both.
    In the city of Phila you must be a democrat to get anything done.
    In the suburb of Delaware Cty you must be a republican to get anything done.
    Both are wrong the only requirement should be are you a resident to get something done.
    Where I live now in Ca it is mostly Republican.
    I am now an Independent and happy with that.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  61. Sorry, SOD. I got distracted by work {gasp!}

  62. Pat has a good point.

    Democrats who voted for Hillary and are PUMA’s have dropped the label of Democrat.

    That is what a PUMA has been since day one.

    So is the reason for the post to be sensitive to more conservative members. Not that I do not think we should have absolute common courtesy and welcome them with open arms, there is much to agree on, but we should not be MORE sensitive to their feelings. That actually feels divisive and a corruption of principle.

    People who know they are PUMA’s will stick around, those who have more in common with the republican party will find their way back to it.

    maybe I misunderstand something, am I wrong?

  63. And also, I am interested in hearing alternative views on this…

    Should we keep these labels? what value do they hold for us?

  64. Call me anything you want as long as it is not democrap, republicanned, or obot. or dumb. or a hypocrite. of course the first three encompass the last two, and the first one encompases the last three, and the second one sucks, and the third one sucks bad, and so on and so forth.

    american. puma. radical progressive feminist. ass kicker. obot squasher. truth teller. freedom fighter. I will answer to all of these.

  65. I’m saying the Label creates the sensitivity. My suggestion is to toss it. Then we don’t have to worry about it.

  66. I love this post-but I want to be labeled a “fuzziest”

  67. SOD – oh absolutely I am certain that there are some areas that we would not come to see eye to eye on, though there are probably more where we could come to some sort of accommodation. Since I respect TC and the liberal leanings here, I generally refrain from making comments that would ruffle the feathers of most folks and simply read so I can gain some sense of the thinking behind the different approaches.

    The places where we’re most likely to find agreement would be on governance and campaign issues; how campaigns are financed, the necessity of limiting as far as possible the influence of money in the political process, the need for an actual watchdog media (rather than a lapdog).

  68. SOD,

    Besides being welcoming to all people, I do feel that it is important for us to not take other people’s beliefs personally. I have done that myself, and I recognize that it isn’t fair because it suggests that others have to censor themselves so as not to hurt my feelings. Pat is always courteous and I don’t believe she should have to hold back on her opinions about Ann Coulter, etc. None of us should have to. But people can’t take offense when others express a different opinion either. I agree with you, doing away with the labels helps that process.

  69. I want to hear about everyone’s personal views — I don’t want to hear what their “party” thinks.

  70. But PUMA’s are democrats who dropped the label back in June.

    We are PUMA’s. We are not democrats.

    Is it different for conservatives and republicans PUMA’s??

    I never hear a PUMA getting offended about bad mouthing a liberal POV or person.

  71. since angie to “hotnes” already….I am a fuzziest!

  72. Taggles,

    Some people who previously saw themselves as Democrats have now become Republicans in response to what happened. The point is those people are still PUMAs.

  73. That is a very good question taggles.

  74. I want to hear about everyone’s personal views — I don’t want to hear what their “party” thinks.

    Which I thought was the purpose of The Confluence. I don’t remember anyone here ever spouting the Democratic Party’s views during the last year since we all come to the same conclusion that they are as corrupt as the other side, particularly when it came to vote counting.

    I still hold the principles that were once the foundation of the Democratic Party but I no longer adhere to the crap they now trot out as “progressive”. I can’t swing between parties now that the Dems are in disfavor. The GOP holds absolutely nothing enlightening there either. The ping pong game of who is the greater or lesser of two evils is a stalemate. They both reek.

  75. I think that I need to spend another spell in the re-education camp. I have always been a Democrat and this last election has shaken me to my core. I know that I am acting like an abused woman, but I still love the Democratic Party. Part of me and my immigrant Irish Catholic core will always be Democratic. I hate the people that destroyed the party, but I am determined to bring it back. It is probably a fools errand, but I can’t help it. I like being a Democrat. That is part of what makes be so sad. Part of me is dead.

    The more rational part of me no longer feels that every Democrat is better than every Republican. And I think that the DNC is more interested in using Democratic voters to gain power for itself than in accomplishing Democratic goals. Both parties use fear against the other party to whip their members into shape. I am a more jaded Democrat, but Democrat still.

    I just hope that we don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater on this. Read the Democrats platform then read the Republicans platform, and ask which represents your values. ((yes, I am trying to come to terms with the fact that both parties just create these documents to dull us into submission. )

    See, I need more re-education!!

  76. I have called tweety KO rush and scarbough a tool the moment the word TOOL gets me thrown in the spam filter I am out of here!LOL

  77. Pat — exactly. And that’s why IMHO I don’t believe labels matter.

  78. Pat J cannot disappear. Her comments are sent around the world by me. She’s famous and doesn’t know it. She’s going to meet someone some day and they are going to say “OMG, YOU’RE Pat J.

    She’s wonderful, despite the fact she uses cook whip and keeps up with Paris.

  79. SOD – I will add though that even in those areas where we would likely come to irreconcilable disagreement, we would probably be better able to understand the others position without demonization or attribution of malintent

  80. *malicious intent

  81. Pat you don’t like Ann Coulter ??? Or you do like Ann Coulter? I used to despise her. Now I find her entertaining. At least she stuck up for Hillary (sometimes) and most certainly for Sarah.

    I am finding more and more I am having no opinion of people or at least having an opinion like despising Chris Matthew’s yet — not giving him the time of day to watch him or give a rats ass what he’s up to or says. I don’t care for what he has to say so I completely dismiss him. If someone says – oh, chris mattthew’s I just say – he’s a loser.

  82. Neither party is sacred here.

  83. You want to drive both parties crazy?

    Find common ground here. We’re Americans first. We love our country and its possibilities. That was the nerve Hillary struck. That is what we are. Good people who love their country, families and the ability to do want they love. That is why we are here. That is what “The Confluence” has always meant to me.

    This who WE are.

  84. I have to say Simo — I can’t handle Coulter at all.

  85. Amen Linda…amen!

  86. Election reform, voting rights, a real press, that would be a good start.

  87. simofish: I despise Ann Coulter. Ardently. I think she is a poisonous shill who need one of your hearty meals to put some meat onto those skeleton bones. I hate Rush Limbaugh and the lies that spew out of his mouth. I detest Glen Beck and Bill O’Reilly and Sean Hannity and David Broder and Bill Kristol for driving the debate by defending and withholding criticism on Bush when they knew better.

    I include KO, Matthews, Maddow, Todd, Frank Rich, MoDo, Gail Collins, Bob Herbert from the other side who did and do the same with Obama. And objective press corp has ceased to exist.

    So I hold both sides equally responsible. Neither side is immune. Rewriting history to salve the wounds of those who defended Bush is not helpful. Creating history on behalf of those who blindly supported Obama is not wise.

  88. There is a difference.

  89. I agree, Linda. We were driven out by our party. Like Honora, I still think of myself as a Democrat, but I am an FDR/JFK democrat. I want the party to return to it’s roots. But I will never again demonize people because they think of themselves as Republicans. At the same time there has to be an effort not to take things people say personally just because we may disagree on an issue.

  90. Pat,

    I don’t think we can pretend that Party Labels don’t matter. It’s controlling the votes in Congress (otherwise WHAT a coincidence that virtually NO Republicans voted for the Stimulus Plan)

    If you are a Dem or Rep, I can see the temptation to take offense when someone grips about Republicans or Democrats but, those labels DO represent groups of politicians and I think it’s impossible to attempt to pretend we’re not offended by the actions of those groups.

    What sort of verbal gyrations would we have to accomplish to avoid using those terms?

  91. PUMAs should wear no labels. As a voting block it would scare the H-ll out of both parties. PUMAs have ideas. We are in essence the conscience of the country I think. This is who we are.

  92. Ann Coulter is a viscious human being, for a buck. I will always remember what she said about the jersey girls being griefarrazzies. and that they were enjoying their husbands death.

    Has nothing to do with her being a republican or a woman, she is a despicable human being.

  93. I despise Ann Coulter too, and I have every right to say so, just as you do Pat. But if someone likes her and is still civil and doesn’t attack me for my beliefs, then I’m willing to live and let live.

  94. SOD — I catch snippets of her on Fox and just laugh —- here’s a quote I tapped to my desk from her (because it makes fun of Berkeley Liberals & for some reason Time keeps sending me their rag)

    Who Coulter thinks should be Person of the year — Times Magazine
    “I name Sarah Palin for her genius at annoying all the right people. I haven’t seen liberals so enraged by a woman since me. Once John McCain was nominated, the election was a snoozefest until our hero bounded out of the Alaskan tundra. Palin is wildly interesting, charismatic and charming, so Democrats fixated on her inexperience — meaning she is only five times a experienced as our next President.”

  95. Pat SOD BB and everyone

    Oh and lets all be real honest the confluence is the best seat in the country to watch Pampers Inc and “the village” implode!

    and we will call it months before any other blog!

  96. It seems Obama was successful in promoting “post-partisanship”, after all. Just not the way he intended. It was kinda heart-warming how Dems and Repubs “reached across the isle” to try to defeat him. Please, don’t ever apply the PP “label” to me, though.

    (Oh — I just read madamab’s comment.) I agree, Bi-partisan: NO. Non-partisan: YES.

    And, post-partisan seems to imply that “folks” (Democrats) need to get past all the partisan bickering and work with (cave to) the Republicans and the Post-Partisan Powers That Be / Village so we can “get things done”.

    “I don’t care to belong to a club that accepts people like me as members.” Groucho Marx

  97. fuzzy — you are definitely the fuzziest!!

  98. What Pat said. Brilliant!

  99. I think we kind of went through this earlier when we were trying to decide which democrats to endorse on this site. some of us wanted to endorse members of the blue dog coalition, such as daniel johnson here in nc. he’s not perfect, but he was a hell of a lot better than patrick mchenry and in a conservative state like nc you take what you can get. some of us felt a little shut out when we were told that Dems like johnson and heath shuler (who was a hillary supporter to the end) weren’t the kind that people around here wanted to support. as for labels, I will never be a republican, but I certainly not a democrat anymore, and not sure I ever will be again.

  100. The Confluence – Where Stream of Conciousness and Slough of Ideas converge to form the River of Babble-on

  101. I love that, myiq!

  102. I think sometimes people are too invested in particular labels and so criticism becomes a bit hard to hear, even when it is generalized. For instance, I have quite vocally defined myself as a “scary evangelical” which I think surprises some people and probably makes some folks less likely to lump all evangelicals together and categorize them negatively.

  103. Gary! Hello! and hello to macho too!

  104. But if I idly sit by and allow Ann Coulter to go unchallenged what does that indicate?

    Ann Coulter and the like do not deserve any consideration for anything they say. She is horrific and I cannot separate remarks about the 9/11 widows from anything she has said or done since. It was shocking, unnecessary and wholly out of line.

    My silence would have been against my grain and being.

  105. hello SOD, LOVE the new hat 🙂 it’s amazing what they’re doing with tin foil these days.

  106. And that is what we love about you elderj! And we love afrocity too.

  107. I don’t think SOD is talking about doing away with the 2 party system or being “sensitive” or PC. I think what SOD is talking about is to stop viewing things in such black & white terms. For example, with pols — we’ve learned we can’t just assume that the guy with the D behind his name is “good’ nor is the guy with the “R” besides him name “bad.” (Which, I admit, before this election, I always did do — I made it easy for the DNC to take my vote for granted by blindly voting part lines). Instead, we should honestly exam what this particular pol is doing — regardless of whether he is a “R” or “D” & judge him/her on his/her actual accomplishments & qualifications. Same thing with “feminists,” etc. Get rid of the tribal identities we cling to automatically dismissing the “other side” as wrong.

  108. we can use the term “Poodles” for republicans in congress and “Pomerainians” for democrats in congress we can refer to the person occupying the White house as a skunk regardless of party!

    How is that for you all?

  109. It’s jiffypop gary…help yourself! 🙂

  110. What sort of verbal gyrations would we have to accomplish to avoid using those terms?

    I agree with katiebird. Do we just leave a blank space when criticizing the other side?

  111. Pat – I wasn’t listening her way back then during 911 — I have only seen her recently and she cracked me up with her wackiness. I will have to research her comments.

    I must say — it felt good calling Chris Matthew’s a sexist pig in Denver — I was 3 feet way and he was clearly uncomfortable. The people on the “rope line” in front of the stage were Obots and boy were they incensed.

  112. As for Ann coulter, she is truly a despicable human being IMO. That said, I find it horrible that so called “liberals” use terms like tranny and discuss her “adam’s apple” ad nauseum. I literally read some comments on sites like C&L that in the same sentence called her a horrible person for calling al gore (or was it edwards?) a fag, but then make a comment about her being transexual. How is that any less homophobic?

  113. Ann Coulter is the political equivalent of a “shock jock”

    She makes her living saying offensive and outrageous things, but I seriously doubt she means everything that comes out of her mouth.

    Which actually makes her more despicable, because she causes people real pain.

  114. and we can use the term “the devil incarnate” to refer to Soros!

    I think I want to be secretary of euphimisms in simofish’s administration

  115. gary — I agree with you about Ann — she seems like the kind of disgraceful human being who would sell her own grandmother for a 5 minutes on TV. But I’m just as appalled at the tranny remarks too from alleged “liberals.”

  116. Axelfraud will henceforth be know by all present as “the minion and pleeb of Gozer the distroyer”!

    Ok that may be over the top!

  117. Pat and KB — I guess you misunderstand.

  118. But there are people who quote her nonsense as reliable. That is the problem. We can agree that once in a great while Rush makes a comment that reflects some of our views of Obama but he is not to be taken seriously from anyone with a modicum of sense. They both serve an agenda and that agenda is not agreeable to the normal, commonsensical, thought driven human being.

    What is wrong with this country, and the direction it has been drifting toward from the last 8 years, is not going to be corrected by people whose only aim is to demean the other side.

  119. Correct?

  120. Something Ann Coulter says bother me; somethings don’t. Somethings I even agree with. But the thing about her is that she isn’t running for office. She’s making a buck in the entrepreneurial American way.

    I’m much more offended by BO’s “bitter clinging” comments or Donna Brazille’s “we don’t need to old coalition” comments because they actually have some political influence. I can change the channel on Ann, but BO is in the White House making decisions for people he clearly disdains.

  121. elderj — no disagreement there.

  122. maybe this is part of it too:

    Don’t we use liberalism to criticize barack, not conservativism?

    Atleast that is what I see RD writing.

  123. Correct. No party is sacrosanct and no person speaking on behalf of either party is either. Elevating or sanctifying those who may agree with us on occasion, then overlooking their past malfeasance for just that reason, is simplifying their beliefs.

  124. ANn Coulter has given Kathy Griffin some of her best lines in her redstate tour…For that I am greatful…

    Ann is a poor unfortunate soul I believe her poor disposition comes from the fact she is always hungry.

    If you had not eaten since 1981 your brain would be a little out of wack to….I think Ann needs to lay off the grey goose and eat a sandwich.

    Of course Fuzzy thinks food solves all the worlds problems!

  125. people whose only aim is to demean the other side

    The name-calling and insulting started on the right with Limbaugh. Coulter and Gingrich et al.

    The left picked it up as a way to fight back but it turned into a way to treat anyone they (we) disagreed with.

  126. Don’t we use liberalism to criticize barack, not conservativism?

    I would like very much to think that we do. I would like to think that this is what makes us unique in our own way. We address the wrongs without regard to party label. But there is no getting around the fact that party label is included.

  127. HEy has anyone seen kiki lately? I need to talk to her if anyone sees her have her email me!

  128. can I say something that will upset the whole bunch.
    I have watched several posts get hijacked over this issue and now a post on the issue of a person who got upset and decided to pick up their ball an go home.
    Everyone except tr—ls and obots have be made welcome here. Their ideas have been heard and discussed.
    I do not think i have to censor myself for expressing my beliefs because someone has issues.
    If that makes me a bad person so be it.
    this would no longer be The Confluence a place of welcome if censorship becomes the law of the site

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  129. Gary,

    Believe it or not, at DK, when people used those kinds of words about Ann Coulter, they got troll-rated. I agree with you. I hate her guts, but that doesn’t mean I have used sterotypical hate speech against her.

  130. I sent my democratic label to the drycleaners. It now sits folded neatly on the top shelf of my closet next to other outdated things like my old wedding ring.

    Honestly, I’ve gained just a few pounds, and am suprised at how quickly I grew out of it.

  131. I posted this to see some debate on the idea and I appreciate the dialog. That’s what makes this place so great.

  132. What Helen said.

  133. PS to SOD:

    Sing it, sister! Great post!

  134. SOD, I was just addressing Pat’s issues….

  135. I do not like the sexist insults hurled her way either.

    I think it is unnecessary and uncalled for.

    She is just a despicable person for reasons stated above.

  136. Pat I have to agree I dont know what I am anymore I am a registered democrat because I want to vote in the primaries….I just dont think the “New and disimproved democratic party” holds my values any more.

    I have been drifting left my whole life and now I see myself as lightyears ahead on the rest of the self proclaimed “souls of the liberal” movement.

  137. And it cannot go unnoticed that our wonderful fuzzy has been trying his utmost between comments to be our conciliator. This is what makes him our own lovable fuzzy!

  138. myiq — imo it doesn’t matter who started the name-calling — it takes focus of the issues & puts in on the person. So, the right started calling Hillary a b*tch first way back in the 90s. Doesn’t make it ok for the left to call Sarah a c*nt now.

  139. Don’t we use liberalism to criticize barack, not conservativism?

    Does anyone here call him a socialist or insist he is really a Muslim?

    But observing that he can’t . . .uh . . .speak . . . .uh . . . without a Teleprompter isn’t conservative or liberal (it’s just the truth)

  140. Defending those views would be as bad as defending Andrew Sullivan because he has nice teeth. Senseless.

  141. No myiq I have never seen anyone here do that. What does that have to do with the tea in China? Do you think those are the only “ideological” differences between liberalism and conservatism. And how he has been criticized by front pagers on this site.

    I do not think those are conservative issues, they are fear mongering tactics though.

    The teleprompting may be one issue that transcends.

  142. well… maybe I should also not censor myself… except…

    self censorship is a nod to public civility.

  143. For example, I think Ann Coulter is wrong 9 x out of 10 because she is a malicious opportunist, not because she is a Republican (allegedly).

  144. my problem with the neo-con movement is it is so tied up in religion….particularly fundamentalist christian philosophy. I cannnot tollerate that because these people cannot even be honest about wanting people like me and gary mawm simofish and scrubs dead.

    Their “Hate the Sin not the Sinner” holds no appeal to me at all. Beacuse I believe what I am is not a sin I am like all of you created in the imiage iof the devine.

    I a society that holds each individual as precious and dear and free…what anothers religion believes should hold no water.

    Seperation of church and state must be sacrosanct. We a a secular nation because of the numerous religions here.

    I am totally offended by their intolerance of my exsistence. There is no common ground with these people on the issue of my right to exsist and live as the creator intended me to.

    Sorry Elderj my 2 cents

  145. public civility — c’mon elderj…I know I’ve seen you here on one of those “saturday nite” posts at about 2am… 😉

  146. Thanks for the shoutout. You guys are always so clever and informed. Sometimes, I lurk because I know I just can not possibly add to the conversation.

    As for labels, I don’t know what I am anymore, but I do know what I am not.

    I am not one of the elite and I have never been privileged. Every damn thing I have accomplished came from hard work. When I went to college, I never thought we could afford it, but through grants and scholorships, I made it through. My family always told me if you want it bad enough and are willing to work for it, you can get there.

    I thought that was the American way. The american dream was that if you worked hard, you could have the dream.

    Not anymore, and that it what defines me, I see the dreams of everyone like me, having the life blood sucked right out of them and I can not stand by and watch. Does that mean I am a democrat? It used too, now it means I give a damn.

    I think that is what unites us here, we give a damn and it doesn’t matter if we are gay, republican, African American or WASP.

    We care and we care a lot..

  147. Pat, I actually got banned from no quarter for disagreeing with a post that basically said gay people shouldn’t have access to the list of people who donated to prop 8 (although all other political donations are public). I got the impression that the author only took that position because it was the opposite of what Andrew Sullivan said. I detest Sullivan, but like angie said on an earlier thread, even a broken clock is right twice a day. Too many people in this country are more concerned about what side people are on than what is really right and wrong.

  148. Pat I could not even defend Mr Sullivan even if he still had “rock hard glutes”!

  149. Elderj likes our part our naughtiness. I know it!

  150. I mean likes our naughtiness…go back to bed, Joanie

  151. Like George Washington I like the concept of non-partisan politics, non-party politics. We actually have non-party politics in local offices in CA. You can not run for school board or many city council positions, county positions from a political party. It only works so far but it may give just a bit more of a focus on issues rather than political party affiliation, especially for the small local offices.

    I do not think the problem is just about where the boundaries of what you can say are. I think the other side of the coin is just as important—listening. I read people saying things that I think are over the top and/or rant and rage. But you don’t have to react to it or what is more important, let it affect you emotionally and personally. It’s just blog blather.

  152. Too many people in this country are more concerned about what side people are on than what is really right and wrong.

    Well said gary…well said

    From there, we can discuss, debate, and come up with solutions.

  153. THerealkim-Your label can be “fuzzy’s friend” how is that….

  154. Name calling has been actively prohibited on this site. We are not allowed to address one another as morons or idiots or any other perjorative that may slide over the keyboard.

    I have seen few comments that ever came close to those terms and the poster was warned. I have been taken to task for posting a point of view that was not completely accepted by others. I can live with that. You post, you roast.

    I have also seen, and taken part, in discussions that fought for common ground. But I think overall the discussions have been polite if impassioned. However, I am unable to apologize for a point of view. Speaking for myself.

  155. Pat — no one wants or expects you to apologize for anything you say.

  156. fuzzy — elderj believes in separation of church and state — a lot of conservatives do as a matter of fact.

    and you are not a sin fuzzy!!!

  157. It means never having to say you’re sorry.

  158. OT – They are still harumphing and trying to untwist their knickers over *there* about our (my) mean and totally uncalled for attacks on them.

  159. Also SM and I are working on a road trip to meet taggles when she comes to florida….Fuzzy will not be detoured from meeting all his puma friends….

    Cant wait to tell the Obats at dinner tomorrow what a big hit me and SM were at the ball park and at chillies!

  160. Tr0lls are always fair game. A day without AGB is a day without sunshine.

  161. Pat J! LMAO!!!

  162. I could get in my car and drive about 90 miles to meet up with taggles.

  163. gay people shouldn’t have access to the list of people who donated to prop 8

    I agree with you on that issue. It sets a bad precedent and it justifies repealing disclosure laws.

  164. Elderj that good in my book….AngieNC….baby steps baby steps fuzzy! I have a tendency to put all evangelicals into the same bag its a behavior I strrive to overcome but often fail!

    On the subject of tr0lls-it is always open season on them till spammy or Myiq2xu or Katiebird or BB throw them into the echo chamber….

  165. SOD, the difficulty is the personal ideology. you can take whatever name you want off of it but you cannot reconcile liberalism and conservatism. they are completely different.

    even though politicians may not be practicing their designated ideology, does not mean regular people will toss their ideology down the drain.

    That doesn’t mean they believe in a party, just that they have a particular set of political beliefs whether or not the party is representing them. That will not change.

    The majority or PUMA’s will not be comfortable if it becomes a conservative movement.

  166. fuzzy the meek and cuddley is in moderation please set me free!

  167. Going to eat dinner, label me Hungry.

  168. oh its my comment at 718pm-

  169. I had a long talk with a financial advisor ,today and I aint doin too bad …whew .Eventually we got around to politics .
    She lives in Baltimore , so we dont get to talk much and we have never met . The political ideas and comments I find and share here I am familiar with , the political ideas and opinions of close friends I know well , and share as well. But I talked to someone I hardly know for an hour and a half today , and to hear those same observations and sentiments just made me feel all Pumatized and warm and fuzzy all over , not to mention deeply validated and supported and definitely not crazy .

    The hyperbole of bo in his pose as presider over the catastrophe only he and his cronies can prevent by
    building infrastructure between L.A. and Las Vegas has scared the people in this country half to death .
    If shrub used fear tactics , bo is bringing them to a new level by preaching them as fire and brimstones from his new pulpit .
    La Donna” we will riot in the streets if you dont vote for bo ” used fear to extort votes… and who knows how many thinking AAs were intimidated in that regard.
    This unscrupulous poser will use anything to get his way . I hate being manipulated. The only thing I hate worse than being manipulated is the smirk on the face of the manipulator.
    I will call that bo what i need to vent my spleen on the person I consider the most vacuous r@tfucker ever to fake the office of POTUS. I would be very sorry if i could not do that here , because I have come to love this place …….
    I think one of the biggest problems people have with PUMAS is that most labels DONT stick !!!! So they cannot pigeon hole us ,and we do not fit conveniently into some CATegory they can write off .

  170. yeah where is AGB?

  171. How many disagreements, despite different party affiliations, have we had on this board regarding those issues? I can’t remember any…can you?

  172. I don’t want to be part of any party that excludes gays because of some Faith Based Initiatives. I don’t want to be part of a party that tramples women’s rights. I don’t want to be part of a party that dismisses science and stem cell research. I don’t want to be part of a party that excludes votes. I don’t want to be part of a party that elevates “cult” over competence. I don’t want to be part of a party that measure religious beliefs above all else. I don’t want to be part of any party that spies on its citizens and labels that patriotism.

    I want the right to be able to express those issues at all times.

  173. see fuzzy — that is exactly what SOD is talking about — we shouldn’t automatically put all EVs or Ds or Rs in any bag (and they should stop doing it to us). 🙂

  174. {{{{swanspirit}}}}

    Nicely said….I cant wait till someone does wipe that smear off his face i know itis comming and we will have front row seats here!

  175. I think all of this dialogue is about Afrocity being offended by statements about Republicans and her deciding not to post or comment here any more. I enjoyed AC’s comments and I will miss them. But I Repubs have made a huge mess out of our government and I hold them especially responsible for killing off a Clinton presidency. So even tho’ I voted for McCain/Palin and I am sympathetic to some Republican themes—such as their before Bush history of at least talking a game of budget discipline—-I am not a Republican and not likely to become one. So if AC wants to go where Republican ideas are more welcome, then I think she should do that. As much as I dislike Obama and am disgusted with Dems right now, I do not find the Republican blogs to be places where I can hang out, probably for the same reason Afro City found it could be not ok here.

  176. It is not party affiliation SOD. It is a persons own individual ideology.

    Democratic PUMA’s don’t trust Barack because he is not a democrat.

    Conservative PUMA’s don’t trust barack because they think he’s a socialist.

    How can those two things be reconciled.

    When we are discussing Barack on this site, we use liberal arguments to criticize BO. We do not use Conservative arguments.

  177. swannie — I don’t think you will ever have to worry about anyone here complaining that you called Obama an incompetent ratf*cker. 🙂

  178. well said….Pat and Angie…

    So angie does this mean Afrocity is not gonna do the view from under the bus anymore that would break my heart….

    It breaks my heart even more that I will not see here lovely prose here among her friends….

  179. Pat — I had to laugh!

  180. Ideology is a formation of beliefs. Party is the umbrella label.

  181. SOD: It was a combination of both. They blend nicely nowadays don’t you agree? Hardly a speck of separation.

  182. I don’t know that I have the answer taggles, but I do know that the great majority of posters here at the Confluence have the best interests of the country at heart — and I trust that enough to want to understand.

  183. So PUMA’s should be open to overturning Roe v Wade?

  184. Jangles — I think this post was purely coincidental & has nothing to do with afrocity. Let’s not make a mountain our of a mole hill.

    but since you brought it up — I disagree with what you are saying — it is oh so easy to put all the blame on the Republicansy but where where the Dems all this time? Yes, there was a majority Rep. in Congress but that doesn’t mean the Dems has to sit down & roll over. Where were the fillibusters, for example? How come the nominees to the USSC went through so easily? and how about when the Dems. got the majority two years ago? What’s the excuse for “impeachment is off the table” et al? The Dems did not do their job and at least put up a good fight — for that, I think they were complicit.

  185. I wish I could fly to Chicago and give Afrocity a big Fuzzybear HUG! I

    could bring her back home here…Ask SM my hugs are irresistible and I have my own gravity well and once you are caught in it there is no escape!

    After Food Fuzzybear believes a Hug can cure anything!

  186. I’m not speaking globally — Those who we’ve discussed and debated with for a year or more.

  187. Isn’t there a trademark on the side of this site that says
    Principals before Party.
    Doesn’t that say it all?

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,EQUALISTS AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  188. I think we have been pretty consistent in criticizing the current Democratic administration, their talking heads, and their refusal to do the right thing. Few have ever held back their disgust.

  189. I am not a purist.

    If it was allowed, we would speak of it. It is not allowed because it is a liberal board.

  190. Again, what Helen said.

  191. SOD — what do you mean except for the stem cell research? I thought BO hadn’t bothered to overturn that Executive Order.

    But I laughed too — sounds like Pat J. is talking about the Obama administration to me.

  192. I did dedicate it to my viewian co-host. I love afrocity and respect her opinions greatly. I think she takes comments about the Republican party personally which I’m suggesting she shouldn’t.

    We don’t take comments about Dems personally; it helps to keep the debate open and honest.

  193. Oh…angie — then MY BAD!

  194. I do believe in the separation of church and state, though more for the protection of the former rather than the latter. However I also believe that people can participate in the public sphere from any basis of belief or non-belief. It is perfectly legitimate to be motivated to oppose gay marriage (for instance) based on one’s religious commitments, though that argument alone would not be persuasive in the arena of ideas. A counter example would be the liberal and libertarian who both support gay marriage, but because of different reasons.

    It is no more acceptable to ask a religious person to check his or her religious convictions at the door of public and political discourse than it is to ask every one to pledge allegiance to some particular religion or belief. What we have lost as a society is some shared basis on which to have conversation and debate about our life together as a society, so disagreements often collapse into stereotyping, name calling, and flat out hatred of the “other” whoever that may be.

    Opposition to a policy or position does not equate with “hating” the person or group supporting that position. It is a mistake when we make it so.

    As an aside, many many evangelicals that I know are deeply conflicted about homosexuality generally and about public policy specifically. The public “political” face that is put on the issue is often very different from the private discussion and angst as folks try to figure out how to reconcile their deeply held convictions with their love for friends, family members, and neighbors who are gay.

  195. He is “reviewing” stem cell research now. Like between hoop shots, cocktail parties, and flying all over the goddamn country once again to experience the lovefest from the crowds.

    He’ll get back to you on that when he finds a minute. It is so exhausting!

  196. Now if I could only spell

    PRINCIPLES BEFORE PARTY

  197. It would certainly help to remove it as both parties’ sword of Damacles that they hold over our heads.

  198. I believe a person’s person (body) is their own to do with it as they please….the state should not interfere in medical decisions a person makes about themselves.

    Now those who have not reached majority or have not been legally emansipated are a seperate case.

    Also men shouldn’t tell women what to do with their bodies because men woud never tollerate a woman telling him what to do with his.

  199. Thanks Fuzzy (((fuzzman))) and Angie… I do despise bo , but BECAUSE of the horrible things he has done ….and is doing … I can see right thru him , and what I see is not pleasant . I will miss Afrocity …I wish I could meet her someday , but because of her and people like her that have posted here … I am now acquainted with and email with the 1st Vice President of the Maryland Federation of Rebuplican Women ..who surprised me by announcing she was pro choice !!! So I have had to throw away some preconceived ideas and labels of my own , and I think I am a much better person and have grown from that , and from knowing her .
    I have grown and am a better person from knowing everyone here ….

    group HUG woohoo

  200. Commenter: Amen

  201. taggles — it may be hard to believe, but a lot of Republican women are pro-choice. Plus, I have a serious problem with the pretense that the Dems. protect Roe v. Wade — they don’t because they sit on their a$$es while legislatures around this country impose all kinds of requirements on abortion that chip away at it. I think Roe v. Wade is something BOTH parties drag out around election time to divide women.

  202. Beautifully said Elderj…

  203. “Democratic PUMA’s don’t trust Barack because he is not a democrat.”

    I don’t understand this statement. He was elected to the Senate as a Dem, nominated to the Dem Presidential ticket, and has nearly unanimous support (voting wise) of the House and Senate Democrats. Whatever any of us may think it means to be Dem, the reality is that Obama is the definition of it now. History books will not place an asterisk next to his party affiliation.

  204. Obama is currently “reviewing” stem cell research policy. Between hoop practice, gym workouts, and cocktail parties. Factor in flying all over the goddamn country for further lovefest appearances, it is exhausting!

    He’ll get back to you on that. God, he needs another vacay from all this work.

  205. SOD,

    I think Pat is feeling that way, because of what happened a couple of days ago. As I have said a couple of times in this thread, none of this will work unless all of us work at not taking other people’s views personally. That is clearly what happened the other day. As Helen said it was an issue of “taking my ball and going home.”

  206. I am sorry could you imagine what would happen if woman started telling men their P*nis’ were ugly and should be removed……

    It would be a blow to their ego and they would revolt!

  207. SOD, brava! I am an Independent — since mid-’08, and an Equalist, since about that time too. Same time I woke up to the fact that some (but not all) Dems were doing what some (but not all) the Repubs did. good/bad political party labels were just plain wrong.

    Sorry to confuse w/the name change, but the PIS initials were a drag ; )

  208. Go ahead…you’re more than welcome to disagree with me.

    SOD: We took you up on this!

  209. Boomer — do you have another post ready… I’m only good for about another 15 minutes..

  210. Exactly swanspirit! I think all of us watched in awe this election, and probably thought our heads would explode. What we found here was asylum, from the craziness.

    I was actually so tired I just wanted to give up, I found my voice and my spirit bounced back, when I discovered I was not alone.

  211. Swannie — exactly — I despise Obama for the same reasons I despise Bush — for their actual actions, not because of their party affiliation. As I’ve said before — what happened in FL in 2000 was just as wrong as what happened in FL in 2008. The fact that the “Dems” did it in 2008 doesn’t make it ok for me (as it obviously did for so many others).
    Also, blaming the Republican party makes it so easy to NOT blame the Dem. party who was in fact complicit (or at least negligent) in the whole mess.

  212. Pat — that’s why I love you! 🙂

    We can disagree and still stand on common ground. There’s not one regular poster here that I have any issues with disagreeing with me. It’s how we grow and learn.

  213. Angie, I don’t find that hard to believe, I have said it a hundred times myself, I understand but for different reasons. i refuse to have my uterus held over my head for a vote, that doesn’t mean i don’t recognize that some would like to take that right away.

    The point of the matter conservatives in general would like to do away with it.

    dem Puma’s don’t think obama will do enough to protect the rights and conservatives think he’ll be killing babies at nine months gestation.

  214. No, I don’t have a post ready, but I could look around for something. What about you myiq? Katiebird?

  215. Of course Rush Tweety hannity and O’rielly and KO should never leave their homes with their Penises!

    I am still out on whether Rachel Madow should be allowed to take her Penis out for a stroll around Central Park….It is for her a reminder of her butch days before she went all lipstick on us!

  216. elderj — you’ve described quite well why we can’t draw absolute labels. There are always going to be differences of opinion, due to human nature. The good thing is that we don’t have to hate or belittle each other if we disagree. As you point out, most people are thoughtful about how they make their positions, which demands in return a thoughtful response and discussion from the other side(s). There’s always more than 2 sides to an issue.

  217. angienc2, on February 16th, 2009 at 7:32 pm Said:

    Anglenc2: I do not disagree at all with you concerning where the hell were the Dems, especially the last two years. But their culpability for this mess we are enmeshed in does not absolve the crimes of the Repubs. The Repubs were pulling the same stuff the Dems are now pulling—posting bills in the middle of the night, calling for a vote without time to read the bills, not allowing the other side a seat at the table to draft a bill that would include best thinking from each party yada, yada. The Dem party elites played a huge role in the political assassination of Hillary but they did so by ganging up on the backs of the Republican attack squads that went before. So I am sitting here disgusted and appalled at both camps. Sometimes I can find very little difference between them.

  218. Arggg! (I was just thinking about Angie’s Pirate in a bar joke) I’ll think of something.

  219. darn Spammy has really it in for me Heeeelp!

  220. taggles — and the point I’m trying to make is that MEN want to take that right away from you — both Republican & Democratic men. Oh, sure, Dem men are smoother about it — throwing us a little crumb here & there. But the simple fact is is that any rules that make abortion any different from any other medical procedure is sex discrimination.

  221. Angie’s pirate in a bar joke? What did I miss?

  222. For the record: I appreciate each and every commentator and Front Pager who takes the time to sort through their feelings and manages to coherently make their presentation, whether or not all are in full agreement.

    Each brings to the table a diversity of thought, experience, and temperment out of which their views are formed. This is the full attraction that holds this blog together. We often diverge and crossover but it is never boring.

    If we were all in perfect agreement at all times it would be nothing more than a repeated echo chamber and little would emerge beyond a bobblehead approach. In other words, why bother?

  223. As for BO “reviewing” stem cell policy … I do believe Axelrove tossed that nugget out to distract everyone from the comedy of errors and problems the new administration is having with the “stimulus” bill, his tax-cheat nominees, his “no thanks after all” nominees, and the unemployment levels.

    How effing long does it take to review something? Just reverse it like you promised! And BTW, there’s a few women’s rights matters you need to reverse pronto, Mr. Prezident.

  224. angie — you’ve got mail.

  225. thanks for releasing my last was it you katie or BB I love you guys…

    Oh and the thought of Rachel Walking a P*nis around Central Park would make anyone smile!

  226. I am in moderation as well. And I found ABG!

  227. Thanks for the great discussion everyone. both pro and con.

  228. Angie ”
    The fact that the “Dems” did it in 2008 doesn’t make it ok for me (as it obviously did for so many others).”

    That is what scares me more than anything … if they GET that torture isnt ok even if the other guy does it ( obviously an entirely different topic and worthy of discussion ) HOW do they not get that fear tactics ,cheating , not counting every vote , extorting votes , not reporting where your campaign contributions came from, not separating church and state by expanding the faith based initiative money funnel , etc etc etc the entire list …

    IS ALSO NOT OK in order to win..???

  229. re: my previous post, on re-reading I see the lowercase d in the original quote and it makes sense…

  230. Public Service Announcement: Former President Bill Clinton will be on Larry King tonight, from his library. The promo indicated they’ll talk about SOS Hillary, too. (Learned that from listening to Lou Dobbs in the background, with Kitty Pilgrim hosting. Otherwise, I don’t watch CNN very much anymore.)

  231. Jangles — I’m not trying to excuse the Republicans of anything either — I’m saying I put the blame on both parties — that is what the primary taught me — neither one gives a damn about me or democratic principles (little “d” — ie one person, one vote, etc) when it comes down to it.

  232. New thread …. Sort of.

  233. Ooh, Bill. Sadly, I won’t watch CNN,even for Handsome himself.

  234. Swannie –exactly. They showed themselves to be the same as those they vilified.

  235. thank you SOD!

  236. Which is to say that it’s not a post….. It’s more of an Open Thread.

  237. Labels are a shortcut sometimes and a necessary way to organize matters other times, but overall, I think they are simply a way to be lazy. It prevents people from actually having to think. “You’re just a neocon,” is a way to participate on a blog without really having a clue as to what the topic is even about. 🙂

    I really got a charge out of Graham yesterday, who shocked everyone when he said, “We can’t take nationalizing the banks off the table.” Oh my. That flusters those who would put all Republicans into a teeny-tiny box.

    I also watch as supposed liberals come forth proclaiming that we need a return of the Fairness Doctrine AND Buy American. Well, well…..those used to be fighting words of good ole boys from the Blue Dog group, nothing more.

    How many of us were “charmed” by the progressive women writers, who actually penned many an article about pantsuits and pregnancies, insisting that no “good” mother would ever be so selfish as to also work as a politician.

    I suppose consistency really isn’t reasonable to expect.

    Here’s to no longer being willing to go along with partisanship thinking. Here’s to thinking for oneself.

    Mostly, here’s to actually enjoying people who express their own viewpoints rather than just use communication as a way to label and demean others.

  238. Speaking of labels and stereotypes, I just watched Alexandra Pelosi’s disgusting HBO Special that depicts every conservative/Republican in the country as an ignorant, fundie rac*st. It was awful. The contempt that these “liberals” have for the South and middle America is blatant.

  239. Right on! From this election on,I will never just look at the letter after a name.I will check every thing out that I possibly can on the person that is asking for my vote.And I will vote accordingly.
    I will never put party before country.If Barky’s selection had any thing positive at allon me, it was to make me a more savvy voter and to be more politically aware.Other than that ….phttfff.

  240. Stereotyping is bad. It disrespects the individual and usually occurs when the mind gets lazy. That said, not all labels are stereotypes, and some labels are merely a form of identification.

  241. Another way to see it. A label on its own is inert. However, the act of labeling someone can be a problem, depending on the substance and manner of the act. “Anarchy” by itself is a descriptive state. “You’re an anarchist” could be offensive or could be harmless. “You’re an anarchist and you don’t belong in this country.”. Or, “Ohh, you’re an anarchist. Will you have a drink with me.”

  242. I hope that ideas are what people are against and I am not for all ideas.. I will disagree with some, but I will listen with respect and hear what the person has to say before I judge.

    There are many who do not LISTEN and throw out their ideas before they HEAR what is being said. I am sorry, but jumping on someone without LISTENING and making an informed decision is what most people do and there is a “failure to communicate” so many times as a result.

    Where is the LISTENING… instead of LABELING? I hear blatant statements here about Rush, Hannity, etc., and people are not listening to all that is being said. Do you do that in your personal life and LABEL people everytime you have a communication with them?

    I agree with Three Wickets when she/he said: “Stereotyping is bad. It disrespects the individual and usually occurs when the mind gets lazy. That said, not all labels are stereotypes, and some labels are merely a form of identification.”

  243. I come here every day to browse and learn, this has been very enlightening, but I became a Democrat because I’m Catholic and Kennedy was Catholic. I was under the impression that Democrats were for the working Man/Woman. As a Catholic I don’t condone abortion because thats murder in my mind, there are too many ways to prevent pregnancy that the taking of life shouldn’t be the only option. So I guess I’m Pro-Life, against abortion and the death penalty. After watching the meeting of the RBC in which we all got to see our own politician steal this election for Obama. That was the wake up call I had been waiting for, now this is my question? What does the Democratic Party stand for??? Anyone have a clue?? How about the Republican Party??

  244. Part of the reason I used to be a hard core Democrat is because I viewed it as the party that cared more, stereotyped less, kept an open mind, was more interested in global relations. Since last year, I’ve cured myself of that stereotype. I’ve also learned that people who love politics also love to stereotype. I must love politics.

    As someone said upthread, respect for individuals and ideas used to be the foundation of our democracy. We’ve become more provincial in the past couple of decades. Maybe it’s about the scarcity of resources. Maybe it comes with age. I know I was more open minded when I was younger. When did we all get so damn confident about our own points of view. Is that what an election season does. Forget listening, forget thoughtfulness, forget humble.

    Short, sweet, ironic soundbytes. That’s the ticket. Because that’s how the opposition beat us. You know who listens and thinks before she blurts. Hillary.

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