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Dear Lambert


I promised to do a post addressing your comments here and there.  But after reading through all the comments I realized that it would be a waste of time.

First of all, your attitude towards PUMA predates its existence.  I won’t speculate on your reasons but I started my blogging career over at Corrente and as I recall you have never been warm and friendly to this place or the people here, and you even “de-paged” (without explanation) a post of mine that mentioned this blog.

Secondly, I find it offensive and disturbing how you, Anglachel and Mandos could transform an innocuous post by a liberal economics professor (her first post here, BTW)  into the equivalent of a Willie Horton ad, and then use it to accuse this blog and the entire PUMA coalition of racism.  And it was an accusation of racism – “racist, ratfucking bullshit of the Right” was the term used by Anglachel and endorsed by you, both then and now. 

I would also like to point out that PUMA was nearly three months old by the time that post was made but you had never joined (or to my knowledge did you even show interest in joining) our coalition.  Why was that?  PUMA was and is a grassroots group made up primarily of liberal/progressive bloggers – exactly the thing PB 2.0 was supposed to be about.  We had no major disagreements on the issues and we, like you, were Hillary supporters.  So why did you give PUMA the cold shoulder from the very beginning?

You don’t have to respond because it really doesn’t matter.  We know who we are and we don’t need to justify ourselves or seek approval from anyone.  We’re doing it our way and it seems to be working pretty well for us.  It’s obvious you don’t really want to resolve our differences anyway.  If you did you would have reacted differently to Goldberry/Riverdaughter’s comments.

Just keep doing things your way – su casa es su casa – and don’t worry about getting any PUMA stain on you.  If anyone asks we’ll vouch for the fact that you aren’t one of us.  If you want we could even make you a “Not a PUMA” certificate.  But if you ever change your mind, we’ll be here, and we don’t hold grudges.

BTW – It’s kinda hypocritical for you to ban people from your blog and then complain that your comments are moderated at theirs, but as far as I am concerned you are free to comment here, pursuant to our guidelines.  I can’t speak for anyone else though, because I am only speaking for myself.

300 Responses

  1. I’m still trying to figure out where all the other allegations about us came from.

    We put a taboo on several topics (COLB, the muslim madrassa thing, the “whitey tape” etc.) but we got blamed for them anyway.

  2. you got me, i felt like i just stepped on the present left outside my door …

  3. if they call us willie horton ‘hos, then they can forget they were wrong and we were right.

    That’s what it’s about. We were right , Barry did not pass our smell test the FIRST time and they were wrong….because it took awhile for them to buy a freaking clue. It’s still hard for them to believe thier lying eyes about Barry, even as his Dem mask is ripped off over and over. Because means they were wrong, and that’s the 7th ring of Hell for them

    What’s the worse thing about Barry for them? Amateur hour at 1600 PA Ave , just when we need real government? Nope. Genuflecting to the GOP after the country voted in Dem’s majorities to the three branches of power ? …nah…. Barry giving the banks all they want and the people can go scratch? No .

    The worse thing about Barry for them is they were wrong about him . Ouch.

  4. plus, I said nothing about CRRA which was the Republican meme which is so wrong, i wouldn’t have said anything about that anyway

  5. i keep thinking it’s because every one’s blog stats are way down EXCEPT us … I dunno, but that’s my best guess. Plus, they kept boxing us up into this neat little package that isn’t us … maybe because we don’t really fit the stereotype they keep wanting to find things to reinforce it

  6. The worse thing about Barry for them is they were wrong about him

    Lambert and Anglchel were Hillary supporters, and Mandos isn’t even a citizen (he’s Canadian.)

  7. The CDS syndrome was completely associated with PUMA. It carried over since we refused to throw in the towel and get in line after June 1st. We became intriguing outcasts since we never conceded.

    The Front Pagers clarified the position over and over again. But, and these are just my own observations, some of the comments that followed each post made us even more suspect. Wishing, hoping, praying, and creating scenarios for Hillary to take the nomination back from Obama probably added to their distaste.

    Without making any serious effort to realize that our disappointment needed to be expressed, I think, and again I am only speaking for myself, they grouped all comments into one mindset and wrote us off as the deadender, bitter knitting old ladies they drew from this.

    The volume became even louder going into the general election as they became aware that most of us stood firm in opposition and there was no way to get us onboard. Knowing Obama more than likely had it sewn up, I think they wanted to be more on the winning side of “history” than to fall into stance of those of us who called it bogus.

    Like any high school clique, they wanted a seat at the “cool table” and we were the whiny nerds covered in Clearasil. As we continued to point out the flaws and question the reasoning behind his nomination, they felt the need to flay us even more so, even when assured that he was going to win the general. We questioned his claim to the title which was taken as an attack on their wisdom as well.

  8. I said nothing about CRRA

    Your post blamed the bankers, not the borrowers. And how do you explain the financial crisis without mentioning bad loans?

  9. Bravo, MyIQ — THANK YOU!

    I saw that Lambert came by to call, “Bollocks” yesterday but the reference was a little oblique for me.

    When I consider how much effort went into keeping those fringe-non-issues out of this blog (and the abuse we took from a certain OTHER blogger as a result) I think it’s OUTRAGEOUS to make those accusations against us.

    We don’t individually vet comments as they are posted but, we are nearly always moderating them AS they are posted.

    The idea that we should be sharing our moderation decisions with other bloggers (who would never dream of sharing THEIR moderation decisions with us) is beyond bizarre.

  10. myiq — why bother trying to figure anything out? The fact that Anglachel & Lambert both insist that dakinikat’s post blamed the victims of the mortgage debacle (i.e., the people in the lower socio-economic classes who got swindled into those Fannie Mae & Freddie Mac backed loans) tells me that they deliberately misread her post to have an excuse to pretend we were nut jobs. The fact that we didn’t allow any discussions of the COLB, etc. is of no moment to them. We were disgusted by the undemocratic tactics used by Obama at the caucuses & by the DNC on May 31, 2008 — as were they — but unlike them we didn’t just whine about on a blog — we actually took action. We refused to vote for that fraud. Furthermore, we refuse to condone sexism & misogyny (as they did — because make no mistake — a vote for Obama was a vote for Br*s before H*s and Sarah Palin is a C*nt). They want to be able to rail against the injustices but without having to actually get their hands dirty or inconvenience themselves in anyway. They will never forgive us for putting our money where our mouth is.

  11. that explains why Mandos has no idea what he’s talking about … some one needs to put a fact checker on him

  12. i think they think we’re not as smart as them.

    they prefer beautiful minds.

    bloggers who cajole, ridicule, argue with, and/or (in the case of Anglachel) gatekeep commenters using a spectacularly snobby rubric do not have much respect or use for their readers — i doubt it’s YOU they disdain miq (well, maybe they do hate you but that’s different. But they certainly cant think they’re superior to RD or the other front-pagers). It’s the RABBLE that gives them hives and makes them askeered to be associated with Puma.

  13. “every one’s blog stats are way down EXCEPT us ”

    Ours are too. But, they aren’t THAT far down. And they’re still very high.

  14. “They want to be able to rail against the injustices but without having to actually get their hands dirty or inconvenience themselves in anyway. They will never forgive us for putting our money where our mouth is.”

    what angie said.

  15. Lambert and Mandos I don”t know about…. I was never over to thier blogs….. Anglachel I read a great deal and really who can figure her out? She ‘s brilliant but says all men are rapists…. If someone believes all men are rapists, then that someone could also believe anyone not getting on the Barry train must be a rac*st…
    You got me.

  16. murphy, on February 15th, 2009 at 9:08 pm

    so it’s a class thing? Quite possibly

  17. myiq — why bother trying to figure anything out?

    I’m not – I’m just making some observations.

    If they want to explain themselves that’s up to them.

  18. {{{Dakinikat}}}

    You don’t have to defend yourself here-Pumas know BS when they see it!

  19. Ours are too

    Political blogs all see a drop in traffic after an election, just like sports blogs lose traffic when the season ends.

  20. If I remember correctly, Anglachel said from the beginning that she was not voting for Obama. And when this blog began to consider McCain as a protest vote against the DNC it may have appeared that we had thrown down all principles of being a Democrat which may have led to the “branding” and used dakinikat’s posting as reinforcement.

    I don’t know. I am just throwing it out there. The hatred that came from the Obots and the disdain certain bloggers held for us is hard to fathom.

  21. I hate to lose Lambert.

    I hated to lose the Dem party, too. But once it was clear that the party was run by a bunch of 8th grade cheer leaders whose personal likes and dislikes trumped all else, I couldn’t get away fast enough.
    If they ever return to one person, one vote I’ll reconsider.

  22. myiq I’m in the hellpit with your snooty blogger friends…

  23. that explains why Mandos has no idea what he’s talking about

    The problem isn’t that he’s ignorant, the problem is that he thinks he knows what he’s talking about.

    I’m sure you’ve had students that wanted to constantly argue with you because they read a book.

  24. myiq — that’s my point — they can’t explain themselves — I read that thread over at Corrente & Lambert kept insisting that somehow we were guilty of cheating — he kept saying over & over again — “just because they cheat doesn’t make it ok for you to cheat.” WTF kind of explanation is that? When did we cheat? By refusing to vote for the fraudulent Dem. nominee? By reading dakinikat’s post correctly? Maybe I shouldn’t have written “why bother trying to figure anything out?” I should have written: “why bother paying any attention to them? Giving them the slightest attention only gives them more opportunities to spin their lies and indulge in their circular logic.”

  25. “this blog began to consider McCain”

    I know that there was a perception that The Confluence was considering McCain. But, it was never possible that The Blog would endorse him. Most/all of the front-pagers weren’t exactly sure of their personal votes.

    Voting for McCain wasn’t a banned topic however and for some people NOT banning a topic is an endorsement of the idea.

  26. And when this blog began to consider McCain as a protest vote

    That was later – after the convention.

    Where were they at the beginning?

  27. I’m sure you’ve had students that wanted to constantly argue with you because they read a book.

    Worse than that, they listen to Rush Limbaugh or KO and then lecture me like they know all the answers using jokers as sources.

  28. They hate PUMA because they’re threatened. Fear makes people act crazy.

  29. The thing about PUMA is, we say principle BEFORE party . So that may be our sin. We don’t jack boot that well…in fact, we refuse. And I love how Obots expected us to get in line after Hillary endorsed Barry. Like we didn’t have our own brain….

  30. KB & Pat J — the most effective protest vote was a vote that would actually help defeat Obama — that is what I mean when I say they “refused to get their hands dirty.” Sure, maybe Anglachel voted 3rd party — so she can feel oh so good about herself for not voting for Obama — I don’t give a f*ck what she did. She has no right whatsoever to claim any moral superiority over anyone else who voted however they choose — that is why the voting booth is private. Furthermore, that doesn’t excuse her purposefully misreading & misrepresenting what dakinikat wrote to label her (and by extension us) r@cist Republican ratf*ckers. She lost all credibility when she started to spread that lie & so did Lambert. And I seriously don’t give a flying fig what people like that who are so despicable think of me or any of us here.

  31. katiebird: That was my point. There was a lot of back and forth about this for months. We lost some regulars who could not consider voting outside the party even if they loathed Obama himself.

    Others agonized about their possible decision, that is where the hope and the building of alternate scenarios took root. The possibility of defecting to McCain left a lot of us struggling. There were a few who readily transferred but the posters were forever vacilating right up to the end.

    No matter how loudly we said it was done out of protest from what had taken place during the primaries, we were only “R’s” for a day. By November 1st, the outcome was never in doubt.

  32. Lambert: Consider that the blog is open for discussion. Please accept the invitation. It might prove helpful. As you can see, there is room for debate.

  33. Pat J — see, I disagree with you — I wasn’t an “R” for a day — I was not an “R” for even one second. That’s part of the b.s. strategy that the Obots started to push towards the end: “it’s ok to not vote for Obama but you can’t vote for McCain.” Who are they to tell me how to vote? I vote for the best person with the best character & experience. They don’t. I’d rather be me.

  34. I should correct myself and say that “when some of the bloggers began to consider McCain” as katiebird was correct. The blog never endorsed him! Riverdaughter made that point over and over. She left it up to the individual to cast their vote as they saw fit.

  35. sorry I haven’t been around much today, but I’ve been staring at circles looking for a “circle’s edge.”

  36. angie: I stand corrected.

  37. one thing that must be scaring the bejesus out of them right now has to be the dawning of the idea that the republicans are standing pretty solidly against the stimulus and TARP right now because they know it’s not going to work and there’s a good chance all the misery will send the next to elections back towards them … and the complete incompetency we’ve seen the last three weeks with 2 gone in the wind commerce sec appointments and no third line back up and that dreadful TARP 2 roll out has to be sending out signals to any political brain any where … we can’t be the only ones that sniff a disaster in process

  38. If you couldn’t support Obama then you wanted him to lose. If you wanted him to lose then you had to vote for someone else who stood a chance of winning.

    Voting for a minor party candidate or not voting is Pilate’s choice – washing your hands so you can disclaim any responsibility for the outcome.

  39. There…it’s settled.

  40. Pat J — Lambert doesn’t want to debate.

  41. i think the fact we can start saying, look we told you so, so soon has to give a few people some disequilibrium between the ears

  42. Nice job, myiq2xu. Very restrained too. I’m disappointed in Lambert, but he showed who he really is a long time ago when he used the “drop by” only to push one of his pieces. In the end, he was too cowardly to follow through on what he knew was right. Now he’s stuck whining about Obama destroying social security and medicare and not pushing health care at all. Thanks for nothing Lambert. As our economy and political system collapse around us, we’ll remember who stood up and spoke out and who didn’t.

  43. repeat
    Puma = Brains and Backbone
    smart enough to see through the facade.
    strong enough to withstand the name calling and fools.

    I have never been to either website. Do not plan to go to either website. Their opinion of me is not important to me. They do not pay my bills. They do not make my life more comfortable.
    If they were part of the ” fools rush in” crowd and did not think before they voted they have to live with it not me.

    The posters and commenters here have informed me, made me think, made me laugh and in a lot of ways made my life better
    As my granddaughter says ” do not let fools take space in your mind”.



  44. AFAIC voting for Obama would have validated his “where else can they go” strategy.

  45. angie: I guess not. Disappointing too.

  46. Lambert will always be a jerk in my book for banning me because I took at shot George Soros, or because I mentioned my Hillary Clinton Protest Postcards that were designed to keep Clinton’s delegates from switching to Barack Obama.


    Either way, it adds up to Lamber being a jerk in my book. I am surprised at the number of PUMA blogs that link up to Lambert and Corrente.


  47. Hey gang. If stats are down because I have been away, don’t worry: I’ll be back tomorrow joining in again. Had to go down to Melbourne on business and am on call tonight but will catch up with all the gossip: Lambert comments included.


  48. speaking of party driven memes, I’m still having a hard time thinking any one could write a thread blaming the lack of republican votes on Rush Limbaugh’s control of them … how can any one write that one with a straight face even?

  49. bb — exactly. And quite frankly I have no desire to debate someone who insists that dakinikat’s article was in anyway shape or form r@cist. A person who can say that about dakinikat’s post is either (1) deliberately lying or (2) unable to understand what she wrote. In either case, any conversation with them is pointless.

  50. have you heard one republican senator say I didn’t vote for the stimulus because rush limbaugh told me not too?


  51. lambert strether, on February 15th, 2009 at 9:21 pm Said: Edit Comment
    Best of luck!

    Could there be a more impotent and cowardly comment? Go hang out with your snotty-nosed college freshman pal Mandos. If he’s more than a college freshman, he should be ashamed to put so much foolishness on public display.

  52. I am surprised at the number of PUMA blogs that link up to Lambert and Corrente.

    We link to people we agree with (most of the time anyway) but we don’t require that they agree with us.

    You can’t grow a movement by being exclusive.

  53. They didn’t show up in large numbers this time around.

  54. The GOP did not want McCain anymore than we wanted Obama.

  55. Could there be a more impotent and cowardly comment?

    He’ll probably put up a post over there that we can’t respond to, rather than discuss it here.

  56. myiq — of course he will — he wants to lie about us — he can’t do it in our own house.

  57. Yes Pat…but he didn’t have any.

  58. I’m just enjoying the Silbert comment and taking heart from that

  59. I figure that no matter how badly he’s doing in the polls Obama will be the Dem nominee in 2012. That means our next chance to elect a liberal Democrat won’t be until 2016, maybe 2020.

    If McCain had won we would have had a chance in 2012.

    That’s called voting strategically.

  60. “Bipartisanship and unity”, two words empty of meaning by either side. Each has worked to polarize us even more, if possible.

  61. Based on my personal and very brief experience with Lambert, I am surprised so many PUMA blogs still he’s legit.

    lol, how’s that?

  62. Angie,

    If he posts it over there about 10 people will read it. “Best of luck” with that….

  63. after this mess, we’ll be lucky to hold on to the senate for midterm elections

  64. Pat J — true, that is why the nominated McCain — the GOP wanted Obama & Donna Brazile & the DNC played right into their hands. No one will ever convince me that the same guys who brought us GWB are not the same ones who brought us Obama.

    Actually, I take that back — I don’t know that the DNC “played into the GOP’s hands.” I think the Dem. Party honestly doesn’t care about the average person anymore — they want to just pretend they do. When push comes to shove though, they look after themselves & their corporate sponsors the same way the GOP does. How else do you explain GWB’s last 2 years with a Dem. controlled Congress? Now the meme is “what Obama wants is Dem.” when we all know that isn’t true. I’m becoming more & more convinced that we only have one party in this country & it doesn’t matter who gets elected — the fat cats will stay fat & the rest of us can fend for ourselves.

  65. Eek — I’m in moderation!

  66. Yawn. Been at it for what, 5 years? Flame wars come; flame wars go, and one thing you learn is not to invest a lot of time in them. If that be called cowardly, well, I’ve been called worse.

    Readers can read the post and the thread to which this post responds, and make up their own minds.

    I prefer to remember the post the way that Pat Johnson did (see screen dump in cpmments) as a “fantastic exchange.” Others may see it differently; I won’t speculate as to motives.


  67. after this mess, we’ll be lucky to hold on to the senate for midterm elections

    We’ll lose seats in both houses, the question is how many.

    It will be worse if they go after incumbent “blue-dogs.” Most BD’s are in conservative-leaning districts/states. If they defeat the BD’s in the primaries that increases the chances the GOP will win in the general (unless they find new BD’s, in which case what’s the point?)

  68. Does either side give you the warm and fuzzies? Is there anyone now, or perhaps on the horizon, that offers anything new, visionary, or truthful?

    I am so sick of the same blithering idiots perched behind a microphone, blathering on and pointing fingers. The same taking heads, who are entrenched and have been for years, lying away their integrity, rubbing shoulders with lobbyists, taking donations from special interests, blustering and posturing for the voters back home while cutting deals behind the scenes.

    Incompetent fools with their hands in the cookie jar, exhorting and complaining, while the rest of us sit on our hands. So few good ones and those are relegated to the back burner. Disgusting.

  69. You were in there with Lambert, Angie. Apparently we’re putting him to sleep with our boring thread.

  70. angienc2, on February 15th, 2009 at 9:48 pm Said: ……..the same guys who brought us GWB are not the same ones who brought us Obama.

    The media love meter tells one that . The same press that adorned W, now loves Barry. The press hasn’t changed

  71. I let him out Dakinikat. I think everyone should she his pompous comments.

  72. Aw, isn’t that nice of Lambert — trying to generate a few hits for himself.

    I don’t care about your “response” Lambert — your misrepresentations about dakinikat’s post tells me nothing you write is worth reading.

  73. I’m becoming more & more convinced that we only have one party in this country & it doesn’t matter who gets elected — the fat cats will stay fat & the rest of us can fend for ourselves.

    I agree. I keep saying there no longer is an “aisle”. Just a bunch of phonies backed by the same special interests who posture and preen for the sake of the camera.

  74. Their obstinacy in accusing us of certain things reminds me of “Gore invented the internet”. it was concocted the same way, it serves the same purpose – to try to discredit us by turning our strength into or weakness. In politics, I was wrong, you were right is never ever uttered. Instead, we have “you once paused when asked “is he a Muslim” before saying “no, as far as I know”.

  75. angie — I’m pretty sure Lambert wasn’t accusing TC of cheating, he was just using that as an example of “instrumentality” arguments, which are bad arguments.

    general — Everytime this comes up over at Corrente, I go on and on about not cherry-picking TC posts and comments to ‘prove’ PUMAs are all a bunch of (fill in the blanks with all the things we’ve been called, racists, bitches, ratf*ckers etc). So please don’t do toward Corrente what some of the commenters there have done (tried to do) to TC; don’t ascribe Mandos’ and Anglachel’s (who seldom if ever posts anywhere besides her own site) cr*p to Lambert, or Corrente generally. There are definitely some violently anti-PUMA folks over there. But that isn’t the same thing as saying that the whole site, or Lambert specifically, adopted the same tactics or cr*p that the sad universe of obots did.

  76. bb — yep, we are putting poor Lambert to sleep with our boring thread — which is why he is glued to this thread & even posting a “response” over at Corrente. {rolls eyes}

  77. Please note that Lambert has the opportunity to post substantive responses but chooses not to do so.

  78. BTW,

    I think the “C” blog has invested quite a bit more time on this particular “flame war” than we have. We have just gone about our daily lives and at the same time RD has been very open about her desire to work with those of like mind to hold the government’s feet to the fire. We haven’t encouraged some pimply-faced Canadian college student to insult other bloggers.

  79. Vallhalla — I’m sure I missed that point of Lambert’s about cheating & I’ll take your word for it. However, Lambert in that thread said that he believed dakinikat’s post was r@csit (and when he read it he thought “oh no”) and that RD should not allow her to be a front pager & he said it more than once. I’m not ascribing sentiments of Anglachel or Mandos when I write that.

  80. Valhalla:

    Thank you, and I appreciated your comments over at Corrente.

    I only ascribe to Lambert the things he says or endorses. He is more than capable of explaining and/or defending himself.

  81. well, i don’t mind discussions of actual points, but mindless personal swipes at people are way out of bounds in my rulebook especially when their embedded in posts in which they have no business appearing.

  82. bb — exactly — I don’t even think about the “C” blog until someone here mentions it. LOL Which brings me back to the point of my original comment in this thread — why do we care what they say/think/do? I don’t.

  83. Vallahalla,

    I’ve read your intelligent comments over there and those of many other Corrente commenters. Unfortunately, at this point Lambert is utterly wedded to Mandos and his nonsense. Lambert banned the guy twice and keeps letting him back in. Then he actually encouraged the moron to post that insult yesterday. Lambert chose to do this. Maybe he thinks it will make the Open Left crowd think better of him? Who knows? He obviously isn’t interested in actually changing anything for American citizens.

  84. angie: I think he accused me of stupidly falling for republican r@cist memes and repeating them to the gullible … but for some reason, the entire discussion of freddie and fannie, their bankruptcy, their lack of oversight and regulation, etc. is out of bounds within his broad definition …you can’t fault the problems without inciting the meme even if you discuss the topic without the specifics the meme entails … inference by discussing the topic is guilt enough

  85. We know who we are and we don’t need to justify ourselves or seek approval from anyone.

    Who cares about these people? This seems like an internet clique and a “family” argument that only matters within a very limited context. I could care less about Lambert…but that’s just me. There are many posts about what someone else said about us or thinks of us and yada yada yada. It sounds defensive, like we do care, and personally, I don’t feel any need to justify my positions to these self-important “voices” for the blogosphere. To suggest that Dakinikat is rac*ist is complete b.s. and if they bothered to read her on-going posts that incredibly generous and informative, they would know that.

  86. I think the main problem for these A-holes was that many people and the posters here (not all) decided to vote for McCain. From the start, PUMA has welcomed all Hillary supporters who planned to vote against the Messiah. The decision to write in Hillary, abstain from voting, vote for McCain, or vote for a third-party candidate was up to the individual. We don’t force people to vote one way.

    Don’t like it? Boo-F*CKING-Hoo. After the Messiah won, Lambert and other Hillary supporters under the “I don’t like Obama either and won’t vote for him but will criticize other Democrats for voting against him” gang still look down at us and continue the Obot propaganda that PUMA has negative connotations. Someone please tell me what is negative about PUMA. The election is over. We’re all blogging about the same things. Will Lambert, Anglachel, Lemos, and Pol C among other bloggers hold it against us forever that we don’t ban Hillary supporters who voted for McCain?

    Whatever. I agree with Myiq that whatever we do or say won’t change anything. They might not like Obama but they continue to ostracize a certain type of Hillary supporter who believes that Obama and the Democratic Party no longer stand for the principles that made us want to vote against the other party. I would be glad to see The Confluence on their blogrolls again but if not I could really care less. We obviously can survive without traffic from their sites.

  87. In moderation.

  88. I think he accused me of

    The actual allegations were pretty vague – what exactly were we accused of that was racist?

  89. Daki: that is just knee-jerk Party ideology, and just as bad as the reactionary behavior of the right wing nuts. Can’t they examine an issue without emotionally exploding and accusing anyone who bothers to analyze it? It has nothing to do with skin color–it was bad economics, pure and simple, and people like Frank and Dodd enabled it for political reasons. The intentions might have been good (ie: to help people who could not afford homes to buy them), but it obviously did not succeed.

  90. I consider that last argument flawed reasoning …

    By letting this comment stand here, I consider him to be engaging in something less than discussion of content:

    “For some reason, Lambert thinks I have something to say about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac because a long time ago I thought it would be fun to needle the PUMAs about their odd predilection to absorb and repeat bad theories on the so-called mortgage meltdown (and, no an econ PhD does not automatically raise my estimation of your credibility—my current project is needling Canadian economics professors).”

  91. The Dems have a stranglehold on all of the election processes in most of the States. (Remember when we discovered that the AG’s in most states were deliberately targeted positions to be taken over by Dems before this past election). Generally, the Dems targeted every political position in every state for takeover and they did a pretty good job of it. With ACORN getting a new infusion of money and the pretty successful attempts by this administration to shut out all opposition, Obama could be in for life, with Democrats abounding to exclusivity in both Houses.
    If we had a responsible media and/or honorable persons in positions of power, maybe we could dig out of this pit.

  92. Valhalla — I too read your intelligent comments at that blog & thought you were spot on. But my problem in that thread with Lambert was his insisting that what dakinikat wrote was r@cist & that RD, by allowing dakinikat to be a front pager, was r@cist & thus, all of us were r@cist. My main problem with that is that what dakinikat wrote wasn’t r@cist — it just flat out wasn’t — this just isn’t up for debate, imo. My lesser problem with that is, that while you are totally correct that comments shouldn’t be cherry picked — Lambert obviously doesn’t agree with that. Thus, everything on “C” written by Mandos should also be ascribed to Lambert.

  93. The allegations were vague, because Mandos is a pimply-faced college student who has no clue what he’s talking about and just likes getting attention. He has been living off that one blog post he wrote for months. He’s like Obama–no original ideas at all.

  94. hello all I am safeley home after a stop at my susters for chicken boritios and choco-cake and red wine!

    I got to meet SM in the flesh I was the best evening and we talked about everything and really entertained the bar at chilies…also my friends team won 2 games at the tourney

  95. I can tell you for a fact that there are people who should know better who believe that both Riverdaughter and Murphy literally endorsed McCain and said that they, personally, were going to vote for him.. I have argued until I am blue in the face with some of these people, but that is the perception and it is fairly widespread. I don’t think a protest vote, when it is owned, is “getting your hands dirty”. I did not vote for McCain but I believe that voting for him tp prevent Obama from taking the presidency is every bit as legitimate as voting against an overt racist – something that very few in the US would argue with or classify as “getting your hands” dirty. I think it’s our hesitancy about owning a protest vote that turned it into the issue it is. I tell people directly that I would no more vote for Obama than I would vote for Strom Thurmond – they are pretty much one and the same person, and their supporters behave almost identically. Obama fueled his campaign with misogyny and that is entitled to no more regard than fueling one’s campaign with racism.

    I think the mistakes PUMA made (and what, you had 11 weeks to get it right?) were expanding the coalition to include anyone who opposed Obama resulting in hysterical anti-ACORN posts, covert racism and outright peddling of GOP falsehoods, and allowing people who were branding themselves as PUMA to endorse McCain publicly without clearly articulating it as a protest vote and spelling out why that protest vote was legitimate. The endorsing of McCain allowed the focus to be switched from discussions of misogyny and caucus fraud to discussions of McCain – that’s where the mistake was made. .

    I know that I am not welcome and am regarded as a troll in this territory, so I rarely wade in these waters, but to my mind, the most important thing the PUMA sites need to do is rid themselves of right wing talking points and posters advocating whatever Rush Limbaugh said that day. I am not saying that happens here. In fact, I have no idea if it does at all – I am addresssing the PUMA movement at large.. I know that Hillary brought people into the party who aren’t as culturally assimilated as some of us are and there is a learning curve, but that should be aggressively tackled. If they cannot leave the 19th century, then they should be left behind. From there on, I think Riverdaughter and Murphy are doing the right thing – focus on whatever positive agenda is available. If the Democrats are working on a bill that you support, then speak up and support it. If they aren’t, speak up and object. And project it all through a feminist lens because the mainstream feminist organizations have failued us utterly. The last thing Murphy says in the Audacity of Democracy is that this election has given birth to the most important feminist movement of her life – I think she’s right about that and that is a very important point.

    Last but not least, I think the various PUMA blogs need to put together a PR budget and get a couple spokespeople out there besides Will Bower. Most PR budgets run $5k a month for a real firm. That’s 250 people kicking in $20 a month for a year. Easier than done I know, but that’s how it should be addressed.

  96. Which brings me back to the point of my original comment in this thread — why do we care what they say/think/do? I don’t.

    lol! Angie: I just read upthread–will you please stop reading my mind?!

  97. I am in moderation please realease! someone explain what set spammy off?

  98. of course I am still a spelling disaster!

  99. sorry Lambert is a tool? right?

  100. DisenfranchisedVoter: Perfect summation.

  101. I think there is a very good chance that Lambert’s nose is out of joint because he just plain isn’t as smart as RD or Dakinikat.

  102. myiq2xu: by even mentioning the freddie and frannie issue, I was somehow engaging the idea that it was the CRRA that caused the meltdown which was the republican meme, all I said was they lowered underwriting standards to expand access to housing which actually part of that was a Dubya goal was at the root of the problem. (That and a malpractice of congressional oversight.) Some how that points to the CRRA. For some reason they went all apeshit over Raines and overlooked Johnson–especially i think because i used the Raines picture and didn’t throw Barney or Dodd or Johnson up there too. That’s all I could see.

  103. bostonboomer please release me I had such a wonderful time with SM in Tampa!

  104. Fif,

    I care because Lambert is enabling Dakinikat being attacked by this creep. She doesn’t deserve to be publicly insulted and then have us just pretend it didn’t happen.

  105. I don’t even know who these people are but I presume that they are part of the self anointed “creative class”. These self important wankers were used by Axelrod and then tossed away after the election. In their pre election delusions, they thought that they would be directing the course of political discourse….What a bunch of f*cking fools!!

  106. bb: I second that!

  107. The intentions might have been good (ie: to help people who could not afford homes to buy them), but it obviously did not succeed.

    In practice it was often predatory lending.

    The realtors and loan officers made commissions, the related industries (title companies, inspectors) made money.

    They buyers were living paycheck to paycheck. If they survived they got a home, but if they had any problems (illness, layoff, divorce) they lost their homes and any money they had used as a down-payment.

    The banks didn’t care as long as the bubble was there because they could foreclose and then sell the home (for exactly what was owed) to someone else so they lost nothing.

    Then the bubble burst.

  108. It had nothing whatsoever to do with r*ce, it was GREED!

  109. I get to meet kiki next week! PUMA’s Rule!

  110. myiq,

    Please check your mail.

  111. fuzzy,

    We heard you are just as wonderful in person as you are on-line. You got very high marks from SM!

  112. Michael; She said you were wonderful! Like we didn’t already know that!

  113. Someone please tell me when these comments about this site being racist were made. Was it something said yesterday or before. (when Dakinkat’s Sept. 15th article appeared) ?

  114. For the record — here are two of Lambert’s comments that I have particular problems with & why I say he says that we are r@csit:

    It doesn’t matter if it hurts. What matters is whether it’s true. And IIRC, Mandos is correct on that history — though it’s been awhile. Seeing the Irresponsible Borrower theory — a classic Republican, and yes, racist meme — front-paged at The Confluence gave me the creeps. That post looked like “any stick to beat a dog,” to me. Truthiness rots everything.

    1. Here’s Anglachel’s post on Fannie and Freddie. I’m glad you agree that it’s “correct,” since she recommends Corrente’s analysis on the topic. (For the record, I don’t believe, nor have I written, that Goldberry or Daninakat is personally racist; what I condemn is the propagation of Republican memes, in general, because they always destroy progressive values, as they are designed to do, and in particular because this Republican meme was racist. As Krugman, above, pointed out.). So now that’s disposed of.

    2. I think that the rest of your comment can be placed under the heading of “Two wrongs don’t make a right.” So what if the OFB used misogyny, CDS, and false charges of racism? I know they did, just a much as you do. But how does that justify propagating a racist meme?

    Ok, people may want to quibble that he specifically says that he isn’t saying dakinikat or RD are “personally r@cist.” But he points out (wrongly) that the theory dakinikat discussed is a Republican r@cist meme. Furthermore, he accuses us of “justifying” the propagating this r@csit meme because Obama and the OFB used misogyny, etc. Sorry, but I’m not parsing words here — his point is we purposefully used r@cist theories (which we did not). Anyone who thinks that isn’t calling us r@cist, I disagree — that is exactly what it is, because only r@csit propagate r@cist theories.

  115. Eek — in moderation again! Sorry.

  116. Chavez just won the votes to end term limits. Hold onto your seat belts, I can see this one inching up the horizon here.

  117. I think the mistakes PUMA made (and what, you had 11 weeks to get it right?) were expanding the coalition to include anyone who opposed Obama resulting in hysterical anti-ACORN posts, covert racism and outright peddling of GOP falsehoods, and allowing people who were branding themselves as PUMA to endorse McCain publicly without clearly articulating it as a protest vote and spelling out why that protest vote was legitimate. The endorsing of McCain allowed the focus to be switched from discussions of misogyny and caucus fraud to discussions of McCain – that’s where the mistake was made.

    PUMA went viral within days of its creation. Lot’s more people showed up than were ever invited, and some people were calling themselves PUMAs that we never heard of until later.

    Of course Tommy Christopher and the PUMA haters tried to make those people (rather than us) the face of PUMA.

  118. PJane: the links are up in the first sentence of My’s post. You can see the date there.

  119. Ok, people may want to quibble that he specifically says that he isn’t saying dakinikat or RD are “personally r@cist.”

    IOW – “I’m not saying you guys are racists, but you wear white hoods and burn crosses.”

  120. bb: I understand, but people are accusing others of being all kinds of things all the time. Look at Dick Morris with Hillary! If she bothered to respond to every one of his absurd accusations, she’d never get anything done. These people, with their sloppy reasoning and self-serving drama just don’t exist for me, but if you feel its important to defend Dakinikat due to internet exposure, then I’m glad you all are doing it. This “blame the PUMAs” stuff is so tedious. Grow up already. They just don’t want to admit they caved to a pseudo-Democrat/Republican, or whatever he is.

    BTW: another Bush pattern–love how he’s on yet ANOTHER vacation, one month into his presidency. Out on the town in Chicago, having expensive dinners, while the economy tanks. Such a great example for struggling Americans.

  121. oh and sheri tag is comming down in the summer SM, kiki and I will meet her and have a Florida PUMA meeting!

  122. OK what the F*ck happened while fuzzy stepped away from the computer in the last 24 hours?

    The shit hit the fan?

  123. Lori,

    There is no “PUMA movement at large.” Anyone can use that name. I come across blogs a couple of times a week that claim the name and obviously have no idea what it means or where it came from. I can’t control that and neither can RD or Murphy. We’ve never been particularly connected with Will Bower, and he doesn’t speak for us. We dissociated completely with him and others like him when the endorsed McCain.

  124. The Confluence has remained a fact-based center for those who still know how to think critically.

  125. I’m in moderation again. Can’t I ask about the
    r a c i s t accusation? Did it start in Sept. with Kat’s first article or yesterday?

  126. If she bothered to respond to every one of his absurd accusations, she’d never get anything done.

    We usually don’t respond to what people say about us, especially the deranged blogstalkers.

    But sometimes we want to set the record straight.

  127. I love the way Lori thinks we “allowed” people to do things. Like we have any way to stop them–even if we knew who they are. And she was supposedly involved in researching this movement?

  128. PJ: started back in Sept., for some reason, it came back again

  129. Plainjane,

    If you read the post at the top of this thread you can click on the links to read.

  130. Lori — I didn’t know you were considered a tr0ll here, but if you are, your the smartest tr0ll I’ve ever encountered. And you are right — I don’t consider a protest vote “getting my hands dirty” — I mean that is how those others see it. I also like your point about you’d sooner vote for Strom Thurmond than Obama. I told this story before the GE vote — my father is a Republican & always votes Republican. Back when I was in high school, however, David Duke won the Republican nomination for Governor of Louisiana (where I grew up). That year my father went to the polls & voted for the Dem.candidate — Edwin Edwards with no hesitation. He would never cast his vote for David Duke just because he had an “R” after his name. He protested the nomination & helped ensure that Edwards won so that the Louisiana Republican Party would learn to never nominate someone like Duke again. My father wasn’t a Dem.for a Day & after that he hasn’t voted for a Dem. again. He did the right thing — he voted against the r@cist former KKK guy. I, when I voted for McCain, did the right thing too — I voted against the misogynistic a–hole who stole the nomination. If Obama had lost (as Duke did) I feel confident that the DNC would not try to rig the primary again. Now there is nothing to stop them.

  131. Eek — moderation again! Spammy hates me!

  132. Did it start in Sept. with Kat’s first article or yesterday?

    It started back in September but found new life on Friday.

  133. Crap there is to much to bloody read! over the last 24 hours…What happened?

    Oh I support the PUMA position SM was great she is a real beautiful lady str8 guys and I love her like she in my “bestest of Friends!”

    Sorry I missed PUR tonight! My nieces felt very ignored over the last for weeks I was in the dog house with Tebow their rescue english setter!

    I think I am out…it was nothing a trip to the mall couldnt fix! LOL

  134. Having read the entire exchange at Corrente – thanks, Walhalla – your posts are always a treat.
    As for the made up controversy – Corrente – which was chased away from DU shortly before I decided to follow them – should have known better than pick up that blunt instrument against people who were his political brethren.
    The fact that they decided to do it, proves to me that they were looking for an excuse in their decision to fold and vote Obama, ponies or no ponies. They needed to make a choice and did it by spearing TC. Not unlike every prominent Democrat – Kennedy, Richardson etc – when endorsing Obama couldn’t just say “he is good” but had to add “because she was a racist”. What Corrente did was take to the blogosphere what the party did.

  135. Help! Spammy got me! let me out, please?

  136. Lori, I don’t consider you to be a troll and I hope you come back more often. I think your points are very valid and PUMA leaders should take them to heart. I agree that PUMA had very little time to expand its coalition. It is a very new organization and everyone is going to make a few mistakes. Several people hijacked the message but it definitely does not represent the majority of the hundreds of thousands of Democrats who withheld their vote or voted against Obama.

  137. I think Lori makes some good points.

  138. I’m in moderation

  139. dakinikats first post about sub-prime loans is the issue?

    Are those stupid koolaid drinking Obats taking her well written article about how big morgage brokers to adbvantaged of Ethnic poor Americans desire to live the american dream out of context again….

    F-you Obots she was right and you are wrong!

  140. If you’re going to call someone racist, you better be damn well sure they really are. and they better be pretty blatant too. It is precisely the casual use of the term that split some of us forever from the Democratic Party. It is not a political weapon used to win an argument. It is a condemnation, used to mark people as unworthy of debate, because their point of view is fundamentally flawed. That began to happen to me about a year ago. Lambert and all those other fools obviously don’t believe that any of us are racist. If they did, they wouldn’t even come to this site–ever. Do any of you ever go to an aryan nation website and try to argue the merits of economics with them? Of course not. So the only option left is that they don’t believe it, and they are simply using it as a lazy excuse to not debate a point. After all this time I find it amusing that anyone here even gives a damn anymore.

  141. fuzzy: yup, it’s baaacccccCCCCKKKKK!

  142. fuzzy — that’s not what they are saying fuzzy — they are saying that dakinikat blamed to borrowers (which she did not) & that is a r@cist Republican meme. But even though dakinikat isn’t personally r@cist — she just propagates r@cists theories! Gah! The twisted logic. No wonder he feels like he is being fired at by both ends of a circle.

  143. correction:

    Are those stupid koolaid drinking Obats taking her well written article about how the big morgage brokers took advantage of millions of ethnic poor American’s desire to live the american dream and destroyed it and made big bucks out of context again….

    F-you Obots she was right and you are wrong!

  144. gary!! LOVE YOU!!!

  145. This is what I consider to be a damned good debate!

  146. angie — yes, and I disagreed with Lambert’s opinion on the racism thing — I was just trying to clear up the cheating thing.

    myiq — I didn’t necessarily mean you specificially were ascribing comments to Lambert that weren’t his. Some of the comments on this thread are discussing both the particulars of the disagreement with Corrente and the CDS/anti-PUMA bloggers at large interchangeably. I’m just putting in a plug for distinguishing the two. Lambert is not a PUMA but he’s no Sirota/Kos/others either.

    Sigh. Some day I’ll learn to say basic things in less than a million paragraphs.

    bboomer — I missed where Lambert encouraged Mandos to post his insults? I thought I’d read all the comments but the conversation over there is spread across several threads and I probably missed some.

    angie (again) and fif — I’m not arguing that we should care what they think of us generally. However, as a reader of both sites, there are many issues on which the balance of posters/commenters on both sites are in substantial agreement, about both the causes and the ideal resolutions to many of the crises our country is now in. There are opportunities for mutual support and activism. It is a shame if we can’t take advantage of that.

    Of course, the course of the interblog interactions that have gone on may make mutual support at this point too costly for one or both sites for entirely legitimate reasons. I’m trying to argue for (not very clearly, I admit) those reasons to be at least legitimate ones, rather than illegit ones. That’s why I pointed out that thing about Lambert not really accusing us of cheating — not to defend Lambert (he is capable of defending himself), or to play any weird kind of ‘gotcha’ with angie (who is one of my fav TCers), but to correct the impression that Lambert was making a particular unsupported allegation against us that he wasn’t making.

    I’ll stop now, because one thing I certainly don’t want to do is fall into any sort of Rodney-Kingish “why can’t we all just get along” position. But if there’s a way the two sites can pool on the commonalities, then I’d definitely favor that.

  147. Angie,

    I think he is being surrounded by his own circular logic.

  148. gary — btw — I don’t give a damn frankly, but I do give a damn that they are lying about dakinikat — its like she is my blood sister or something! LOL They can talk sh!t about me, but they better not talk sh!t about any of my fellow TC’ers!

  149. Are those stupid koolaid drinking Obats

    That’s what was so painful – neither Lambert nor Anglachel is stupid, a kool-aid drinker or an Obot.

    Getting attacked by our enemies is not a BFD, getting stabbed in the back by people we thought were our friends is hard to deal with.

  150. Valhalla: i linked and quoted from the one yesterday up thread

  151. Mandos OTOH, is the type that gives trolls a bad name.

  152. ah, angie, I love you too!!!!

  153. Valhalla is always worth reading. Her comments are thoughtful and well reasoned and she never stoops to attacks. Just intelligent and polite discourse allowing one to take from her positions what you will.

  154. Getting attacked by our enemies is not a BFD, getting stabbed in the back by people we thought were our friends is hard to deal with.

    And that clearly is the rub.

  155. Gary I met SM she is a beautiful soul….

    Angie thanks for clearing it up….and dakinikat the article stands on its own merits….you are one of my heros!

    well all I am so sorry but the travel has mad the ol’ bear tired….

    SM said she is gonna do a post of our Historic Meeting I trust her words more than mine…

    In case we would an inspiring piece about what we are working for…


  156. Valhalla — you are one of my favorite posters — ever since the TL days (and I’ll go postal on anyone who besmirches you too, btw!). I didn’t think you were trying to play a game of “gotcha” with me re: Lambert’s cheating comments — I was sincerely thanking you for clearing that up for me because I was confused by what he meant (I admit, I often post & read too quickly when I’m upset & can easily miss someone else’s point and/or fail to explain myself properly).

  157. fuzzy: Happy Hearts Day!!!!! Good to see you and thank you!

  158. I missed where Lambert encouraged Mandos to post his insults?

    Check the comments in the thread immediately after Vastleft’s PUMA post

  159. fuzzy, I think about SM every day when I leave my house for work and see her work all over the puma mobile 🙂 It’s in the driveway now because we got a parking ticket for keeping it on the street. Must have been an obot cop lol

  160. night fuzzy bear!! And don’t worry about missing PUR tonight — Sheri isn’t feeling well & canceled.

  161. rid themselves of right wing talking points

    We can do that now there are more sources of information like Greenwald, Hamsher, Digby, The Nation, Greider, Judis et al.

    It seems Lambert and Anglachel only have a problem with the housing issue. I finally read DAKINIKAT’S POST five minutes ago! And Lori of Audacity of Democracy above said something about ACORN. As a person of color who actually worked for ACORN, I see things slightly differently than MOST PEOPLE who had no idea what subprime mortgage lending or ACORN before the election. I hold grudges more than most people so I should have said something positive about pre-2008 ACORN. Dakinikat’s was an innocent mistake because there were only conservative sources of information to turn to. I object to ACORN’s ties to Obama in 2008 and am sure they committed unprecedented amounts of registration fraud since they were also involved in the caucuses. ACORN in turn received millions in the stimulus for helping Obama. I worked on a successful campaign raising the minimum wage in Florida whereby 500,000 or the 1,000,000 petitions that campaign received were invalid but that’s how these things work. ACORN also has a history of embezzlement involving the CEO’s brother. But overall, pre-2008 it was a good organization. ACORN actually started the push against subprime mortgage lending. Anyway, the meme of blaming Raines for the crisis can offend people who knew about subprime mortgage lending, ACORN or are POC. These are two issues MOST PEOPLE know nothing about and can make innocent mistakes talking about.

    The other example I can think about it – first of all, I love Bud White – BUT ABOUT A YEAR AGO, he wrote something that’s logical to whites but possibly offensive to POC. We all know the Obama campaign race-baited. Even Lambert knows this. But the title of his post may have sounded offensive POC, that Obama was the George Wallace of the Left. Again, you don’t know this unless you’re a POC.

    Innocent mistakes. We all learn.

  162. Pat @ 10:27p
    There is a bill brought in congress now to end term limits for the president. So it begins.

    I will explain why I voted Republican for the first time in 48 years and left the democratic party.
    The first time I saw backtrack, my instinct was he is dangerous for my country. The more I read and investigated and found out about him the more I believed it. I still do believe he is dangerous for my country.
    The Republicans started destroying the voting process in 2000 and continued in 2004. The democrats finished it off in 2008. Without fair elections democracy dies. My vote for McCain was not a republican belief but a belief that he does Love this country and would not try to harm her. I believe backtrack will do all he can to hurt this country.
    I am angry at the people who did not do the homework and did not care enough to protect the voting process.



  163. Remember we are here for all all the “working girls” and guys out their who ito paraphrase the words of the great woman said:

    “so all have the opportunity to live up to their god given potential…regardless of sex, race, religion, age, national origin or sexual orientation!

    This is what we do- work together so America remembers its original promise to all the huddled masses yearning to breath free! The golden age is never the present age but it is the best future we can imagine for all the children of America and this big world.

  164. Innocent mistakes. We all learn

    If someone had posted something disagreeing with Dakinkat’s post about the causes of the financial crisis that would have been one thing.

    But they just called us all racists and ran off. And those posts kept saying “they” referring to everyone here.

    And it still doesn’t explain their absence for the first three months of PUMA’s existence.

  165. I used to post comments here and read every single thread, but I stopped by fall of last year. I agree with everything Lori says. I think the opposition to Obama was so intense, that some folks on PUMA sites would proliferate information and talking points against Obama no matter where they came from. Even if they came from people like Hannity, Limbaugh, etc., who are no friends of progressives in any way shape or form, and who are liars and misinformers. So it is easy for other bloggers to attack PUMA sites if they have comments pushing that kind of information & the community just lets it stand. (I know that the Daily Kos and others in the Obamasphere such as HuffPo and TPM didn’t care much about facts and pushed any kind of lie or distortion to smear Hillary, I watched it happen. Their credibility is gone, far as I’m concerned. Permanently.)

    No Quarter also did an immense amount of damage by being associated with PUMA (I don’t know if they explicitly identified themselves with PUMA but there was a lot of cross traffic), because of some of the things they posted, especially the false stories about the “Whitey Tape.”

    Finally I think it hurts a blog’s credibility if there are posts not about issues but.. it seems like there have been a lot of threads that are full of comments just being negative about Obama. Such as open threads during a speech or press conference he does, or even around inauguration. That isn’t constructive, what is important is to be able to oppose him and push him to the left when it counts. It doesn’t help to just snipe at him whatever he does, and I see a lot of that, just pointless negativity. I guess that’s why Charles Lemos left? Of course I haven’t forgotten one bit of what Obama did and said during the primaries, nor the behavior of his followers. That doesn’t mean I didn’t appreciate the historic significance of his election & inauguration, and I feel we need this administration to succeed.. the economic situation is so bad, we have no choice reallly. And it’s like Hillary said last June, “Every moment wasted looking back, keeps us from moving forward.”

  166. I keep going back to how the MSM and left went off the deep end and we had no sources of information.

    When our experience of the primary matched what was said in a conservative news source, there was no reason not to use that source. I posted a few FOX videos that told the truth.

    But what Lori said is right. We no longer need right wing talking points about ACORN or the housing crisis because more sources of information are coming out.

    I’m sure I stepped in all this and am sorry.

  167. Here is the quote from Anglachel that Lambert endorsed:

    Back in early June, I condemned the willingness of pro-Hillary supporters to deliberately take up the racist, ratfucking bullshit of the Right to spread smears about Michelle Obama, in Visceral Reactions. The epicenter for this type of assault was (and remains) No Quarter, run by a Republican (Hillary supporter or not) and very friendly to Republican interests. Recently, The Confluence has begun serving up the same ugly mix, which is why I have dropped it from my blog roll and will have nothing to do with PUMA. The current set of posts (no, I will not link to them) serves up a toxic brew ostensibly about the current financial market and Obama’s connections to it, but is actually little more than regurgitation of the Republican racist assault on equal opportunity lending. Anti-Obama sentiment opens up the flood gates to connect him, ACORN, and Franklin Raines to Fannie Mae, subprime loans and government involvement in lending generally. The argument (and the post) relies heavily on images of African American politicians, administrators and executives to make visually the claim that cannot be made verbally, recalling Lee Atwater’s infamous remarks about not being able to say racial slurs which inspires a new level of creativity to convey the message: those people are ripping you off again, taking what is yours for themselves.

    (emphasis added)

  168. Anybody who watched HGTV for the last 8 – 10 years knows the subprime mortgage crisis had nothing to do with people of color. Everybody on any of their home buying shows during that time was encouraged to play house hockey with attractive, no money down double mortgage loans, whether they were downsizing retirees, firsttime homebuying couples, college students, young families buying up, or house flippers. Anybody with half a brain who ever bought a house with a 20% down conventional mortgage knew that kind of stuff couldn’t last.

  169. Donna,

    I didn’t follow everything in your comment, but how does any of that justify Lambert publishing a personal insult of Dakinikat on his blog?

  170. I’ve been an activist against predatory lending for a long time. It takes a lot of nasty forms and some of its biggest victims are actually members of the military. I’m particularly upset by the replacement of bank branches with check cashing facilities in urban areas–a huge problem for us here in the ninth ward. I’ve been working actively against redlining since I was an executive back in the 80s at an S&L. Freddie and Fannie didn’t go bankrupt with prudent lending practices. These organizations have withstood many financial crises including the 80s period. They’ve been trying to lend in redlined areas for years now and that never hit their bottom lines and the CRRA didnt’ do anything to hit their bottom lines either. What happened recently was a new animal and mostly again, because of bad management, bad lending practices, and bad congressional oversight.

  171. OT but for your info sometime:
    Will Rogers has some things to say about Democrats, Republicans, the economy, banking, etc.


  172. We were easily dismissed. A handful of the disenchanted who had nowhere else to go. And when we refused to budge, we became ready targets. I mean, who were we?

    Uneducated, old, bitter, whiny, gray haired denture wearing nobodies who were being told they were unessential so why keep up the protest? Sit down, shut up, tend to your knitting, and pet your cats while you’re at it. Who could take us seriously?

    But we were not what they envisioned and those daily Front Pagers let it be known otherwise. Thoughtful and intelligent essays were on display every day and they were read by more than who commented here. The make up of the blog dispelled the original putdowns and they had to make an example of those who refused to give in.

    R*cist was just the beginning. To oppose Obama could only be one thing and they trotted out the worst of the worst to score their points.

  173. Cinie: which is exactly my point using that article I got slammed for, there were as many problems in the ‘normal’ mortgage market as in the subprime market. And you’re right, many subprime loans were for pure speculation purposes and had nothing to do with even getting familes into houses.

  174. Ok the last paraphrased Hillary Ben Franklin and John Steinbeck all rolled into Fuzzybear’s usual philosophical waxing!

    I Love my home here and I love all of you No \One attacks my bestest of friends here with lies or spreads lies by taking our words out of context and does so with out impunity.

    Myiq2xu and all of you- you have full weapons release authority From me if RD says so then “make it so”….to quote Patrick Stuart Capt Jean Luc Picard….

  175. This was what Lambert said re: Anglachel’s comment:

    Anglachel’s not “oversensitive.” She’s making a moral, an ethical (and, yes) a political point that about the kind of postings that PUMA (taking Confluence as a proxy for PUMA) found acceptable — despite its many achievements. Chacun a son gout, meaning its their blog so they can do what they like, but if anybody truly wishes to understand my attitude in all this, putting Anglachel’s posting under the heading of “over-sensitive,” and trying to justify the instrumental use of racism* might explain it. Eh?

    IOW – he’s not saying we’re racists, he just saying we used racism.

  176. I have a comment in moderation at 11:06, would appreciate very much if someone would mind fishing it out.. thanks

  177. Donna: I’ve always taken a lot of my information from the Center for Responsible Lending, have you heard of them?

  178. I recall watching as Lambert wavered and ultimately made his decision to go down with Ship Obama. If Lambert voted for Obama he voted for misogyny, sexism, the end of social security and medicare and no chance for universal health care. There just isn’t any getting around that. A bigot is a bigot. Misogyny is bigotry. Voting for misogyny is bigotry. Lambert has to live with that, because he knew what Obama was before the election.

  179. dakinikat, my lay observation about the whole thing is that the lenders took the opportunity to screw the loophole CRA provided. I think that’s how people get confused and start knee-jerking. They start with CRA and get diverted by the banker/magicians deliberate misdirection.

  180. And he voted for the unitary executive, torture, more wars, and more corruption.

  181. This also bothers me:

    the kind of postings that PUMA (taking Confluence as a proxy for PUMA) found acceptable

    Assuming, arguendo, that Dakinkat was guilty as charged in that post, where are all the other posts of the same kind???

    We keep hearing vague generalities and sweeping accusations, but where’s the evidence?

    BTW – I don’t believe Dakinkat is guilty of anything except being an economist.

  182. bb: Exactly!!

  183. Cinie: I was never certain how they got the CRA into the entire equation. That was overreach to me.

  184. myiq — gah! reading that cr@p from Anglachel makes my blood boil all over again (I purposefully avoiding clicking on Lambert’s link). Such total b.s.! So, a black person can’t do something wrong? Or is it only that calling a black person out for doing something wrong makes someone r@cist? Because that is what Anglachel is saying dakinikat did –how dare she criticize the way Raines (a black man) ran Freddie & Frannie! She’s a r@cist! B.S. Black people can be just as incompetent as white people and saying they are doesn’t make you a r@cist. But you know what does make you a r@cist, Anglachel? Assuming that everyone who got a sub-prime loan backed by Freddie & Frannie is black .

    And donna darko– I don’t think you stepped into anything re: ACORN — I grew up in NOLA so I’m pretty familiar with ACORN (although I’m not a POC nor have I ever worked for ACORN). I do know that ACORN has done a lot of good things but I also know there are some bad practices in that organization as well. My saying that should not be considered propagating a r@csit Republican meme. Because imo, excusing the “bad” parts of an organization because it also does “good” doesn’t make much sense to me. It is like when Obama came out and said how much good Rick Warren’s Saddleback church does — yeah, well, that doesn’t excuse Warren for being a sexist homophobe, imo. Just because ACORN has done a lot to help minorities does not mean it cannot be criticized when it does something wrong. I don’t think ACORN should be demolished, but I do think some of its practices warrants investigation. I don’t think saying that makes me a Republican or a r@csit. But some people seem to believe that any criticism at all of ACORN makes one a r@cist (as Anglachel believes).

  185. Cinie, on February 15th, 2009 at 11:08 pm Said:
    Anybody who watched HGTV for the last 8 – 10 years knows the subprime mortgage crisis had nothing to do with people of color.
    Years and years ago, my Dad lived in So. CA. I remember visiting him when some of the houses in his neighborhood were being resold without down payments. Dad said that people would move in, not pay their mortgage for three months, and when they were threatened with foreclosure/eviction, they would move out in the middle of the night, and go somewhere else and do the same thing.

  186. BTW – I don’t believe Dakinkat is guilty of anything except being an economist.

    (some how that sounds oddly different coming out of myiq2xu’s keyboard)

  187. dakinikat, I don’t disagree, but that’s where the real Republican talking pointers that I read started.

  188. dakinikat: It’s his way of saying he loves you!

  189. angie: You are at your best tonight! Go Girl!

  190. Cine: funny thing is I got accused of using Rush Limbaugh as a source at one point, when I never even knew he was talking about these things because I never ever read or listen to Rush Limbaugh. That’s when I washed my hands of the entire episode.

  191. To use the Confluence as a wipping (sorry girls) boy to score points with the Obama-trapiziod (as apposed to sphere) is cowardly from people who we thought of as friends-allies in the fight to return consitutional rule to the people.

    Look Liberty is hanging on by its bare hands and yes the claws are dug in to prevent the freedom our republic was founded on from perishing…It is sad that Labert and Archangle have sacrificed so much for so little gain.

    “Those who sacrifice truth for a seat at the tyrannts table better be prepared to enjoy the crow they will be served in numerous helpings!”

  192. Donna: I’d love to read more about your experience with ACORN if you publish it at your site or here at The Confluence. You’re right, I always thought ACORN was shady but no one else would write about them except for conservatives. It would be interesting to hear from a liberal who has worked with this organization.

  193. I’d say Riverdaughter has a big heart to keep those links on the blogroll.

    I’ve never seen those particular posts MyIQ. I’m sick now.

  194. I guess that’s why Charles Lemos left?

    Charles left because he concluded Obama was going to win and he wanted to be on the winning side.

    We know this because he said so.

    As for comment threads, we moderated out trolls and the abusive and taboo stuff but we encouraged open discussion. We didn’t delete people merely for having different opinions.

  195. Pat J — coming from you that is high praise indeed! Now, I better shut up, so I don’t ruin my roll! LOL

  196. katie: after all that RD was just wonderfully supportive, I thought I’d totally ruined the blog with all the conflict it created! she’s got amazing patience and tolerance as far as I’m concerned.

  197. Lambert’s and Anglachel’s attacks were persnickety to be sure. Someone mentioned class. People definitely looked for reasons to discredit us. Like I said, selective reading. But for those “in the know”, don’t “sound like” you’re blaming minorities for the crisis or in the case of Bud say something that “sounds” racist.

  198. Charles also lacked a sense of humor. Chided commentators for having a giggle every so often when it helped to take off the edge. Felt we should all participate in the upcoming “gloom and doom” which we all knew was coming. Didn’t think we were serious enough.

    When someone had the nerve to “tweak” him now and then, he did not appreciate it.

  199. I find Dakinikat guilty of being a forward thinking one armed economist that provides the confluence “brain trust” with great source material and observations of what is happening out in the economic world.

    We take the information and process it and use it to form opinions…we debate it and I hope we help dakini with our untrained eye to hone her theories so she can better serve her students and ourselves.

  200. angie: Your passion is coming through loud and clear. It is a good thing. And you make solid points. Everyone here tonight has made a solid case for who they are and why they think the way they do. It is very important to hear that expressed. Don’t shut down.

  201. Charles is a Massively Wrong A–hole. point.blank.period.

  202. If Valhalla is still here, I have a “scintilla of evidence” that Lambert never took us seriously, and probably for gendered reasons. He never engaged in debate with us ever. He used to drop by and post his links–hit and run–but never responded to anyone. He always thought he was “better” than we are. He’s not though.

  203. Pat J — I was kidding! 🙂

  204. HOw wqs my last Dakini?

  205. I wouldn’t use Limbaugh as a source for anything other than GOP talking points. But if he points out the same flaws I see in Obama that doesn’t make me wrong or mean that I am regurgitating his words.

    Screaming “right-wing trope” is just a way to avoid discussing the merits of an idea.

  206. Wow we can call him by name now I thought to avoid Spammy we had to refer to him as Valdemorte?

  207. perfect Fuzzy, thank you!!!

  208. angie and myiq, Anglachel wanted nothing to do with PUMA long before Dakinkat posted at The Confluence. I believe she would’ve taken TC off of her blogroll regardless of Dakinkat. That one post was just the additional justification she needed to cut all ties with this site once it became PUMA.

    It is interesting that before August we were all on the same page. Yes, people got at every political blog got antsy right before the election and of course those who didn’t want Obama to win began to publicly root for McCain and hoped until the end that he would win even if it was fairly clear after the economic collapse that Obama would win by default.

    The “I won’t vote for Obama but will hate on those who vote against him” bloggers were looking for an excuse to cut ties with any site that welcomed those who switched to McCain by accusing us of going the way of NoQuarter and becoming Republican r@cists.

    I don’t even know why we still need to defend ourselves more than three months after the election ended. Why? Because they continue to undermine us with r@cist accusations even when we want to move on a focus on the issues. It’s the same thing Obama did to Hillary to win the election. I guess the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.

  209. I think most of us here can ferret out the bullsh*t when we see or hear it. We just this year fell out from under the spell of all things Democrat was “good”. What we discovered was their bullsh*t piled as high as the GOP and had the same distinct odor.

    The revelation sent us packing.

  210. Imagine if we required ideological conformity in the comment threads.

    We would be what our enemies claim we are.

    We would also still be a very small “C-list” blog

  211. And we would all have to be “in love” with Capt Spaulding as a pre requisite.

  212. Lemos is a PSYCHO.

  213. ideological conformity? not here, every time i mention increasing taxes on oil and gas, I think fuzzy is the only one on my side, every one else boos me

  214. And we would all have to be “in love” with Capt Spaulding as a pre requisite. That’s where I draw the line.

  215. Hey, what’s wrong with very small C-list blogs?!
    That’s my PUMAsphere goal.

  216. And we would all have to be “in love” with Capt Spaulding

    You’re not?

  217. hey, my little blog wouldn’t even make the d list …

  218. Boston boomer writes:

    I recall watching as Lambert wavered and ultimately made his decision to go down with Ship Obama. If Lambert voted for Obama he voted for misogyny, sexism, the end of social security and medicare and no chance for universal health care. There just isn’t any getting around that. A bigot is a bigot. Misogyny is bigotry. Voting for misogyny is bigotry. Lambert has to live with that, because he knew what Obama was before the election.

    BB may have watched, but he wasn’t paying attention. I voted for Hillary.

  219. Cinie your blog and essays are spot on!!

  220. Imagine if you wasted months fighting against everything Obama stands for and then voted for him anyway (or refused to vote against him). Imagine if your number one issue was national health care, and you voted for the anti-health care, proprivatization candidate anyway. And then imagine in your neuroitic confusion over your own cowardice you then attacked those who stood up and fought the good fight as racists? Man, if I did that sh&t, I’d be messed up too. And I don’t think the “stimulus package” provides anything for psychicatric care.

  221. SM and myself discussed The Conflunce’s purpose in the PUMA movement at large…

    SM said and I concurr like The Confluence is “Brain Trust” of sorts for the PUMA movement there are of course others such trusts and lots of cross polination between PUMA blogs…but here Ideas are debated and spread out to the PUMAsphere also Ideas in other blogs are brought here to be discussed and honed further…

    Because of this we have a responsibility and a duty to do this openly and honestly….I believe we have done this,if RD cwould consider this as part of our charter I know SM who presented me with this Idea would be so Honored.

    I am always honored by the intellegence of the folks who participate here present company excluded…

  222. Hey, what’s wrong with very small C-list blogs?!

    Nothing, but we have higher aspirations for this place.

    The Confluence is the mother-ship.

  223. bb: You are hitting them out of the park tonight as well!!

  224. Imagine if you were Mandos! In his old age, he’ll still be repeating the story of his glory days when he called out a bunch of bloggers as racists and big daddy Lambert patted him on the head for it.

  225. Dakinikat, no I don’t know about the Center for Responsible Lending.

  226. This place is a coalition of individual bloggers.

    As RD says “Come together at The Confluence”

  227. Don’t forget, Lambert has been publishing his blog for five long years, as he so patronizingly told us. And he still has only 30 or so readers.

  228. d g, on February 15th, 2009 at 11:06 pm Said:

    Hi d g. Well, it’s obvious that you still come here as a lurker so many you are still here to read this.

    I agree with everything Lori said as well but I still come here and comment. I’ve said this before but PUMA had little time before the election to expand. I expected the emotions to still be raw long after the sham roll call vote in Denver so it did not surprise me that people came here with right wing talking points. Where else were they supposed to go to get their information? Yes, many people became invested in McCain. Does that seriously surprise any of us, even those who didn’t vote for McCain? I believe the anger was justified and human. I’m not going to continue to place blame on people for what happened during the last month before the election.

    NoQuarter is NOT a PUMA site. I guess they can be called a friendly ally but The Confluence NEVER pushed the whitey tape rumor. Our friend Joseph Cannon at Cannonfire was also vehemently against NoQuarter’s rumors about COLB and the whitey tape. So those who continue to connect this site with those rumors are only continuing false propaganda that Obots have been pushing in order to undermine PUMA.

    I wish we could put all of this behind us. I’d love to see both you and Lori as well as all of the other lurkers who agree with us on most of the issues to come back and post here. I have nothing against those who do not support Obama but were against the right-wing talking points. I DO have a problem with people like Charles Lemos who used ad hominem attacks against the people at this site including Riverdaughter.

  229. hey, my little blog wouldn’t even make the d list

    I’m on a lot of “s” lists

  230. In moderation

  231. Cinie,

    Yours is an honest, intelligent blog!

  232. See I realize I am more heart than brain among you all and Katiebird and BBoomer sometime have to reel in my heart which of all purposed has a tendency to grow as big as (sorry folks) Texas!

    I can be a big tranny mess sometimes….but trust me my heart and loyalty is with PUMA.

  233. Donna: if you’re interested in some really good policy pieces on predatory lending, they’re really good. They also have some really practical suggestions for folks for foreclosures and ensuring you’re not taken in by irresponsible lending practices. I’ve used their data base a lot on things I’ve done. I worked with the senator here to get check cashing and payday loan places away from military bases and base housing. They really have a lot of good info.

  234. I need to check my pulse when I find myself so often in agreement with myiq.

  235. Michael: To us, you are a treasure! Don’t change.

  236. I read and post both here and at Corrente.

    Donna, I completely agree about the news sources, I found Fox to be the most balanced during the late primaries (they hated HRC and obama pretty evenly) and up to the general election. I haven’t gone back to MSNBC but I did stop watching Fox the day after the general election.

  237. BBoomers last two are real proof of our “Brain trust” ability here….

    as well as most anything that comes from Myiq2xu’s keyboard….

  238. (now if i could just get them out of the ninth ward without hearing about them providing local jobs)

  239. DV — see, I would have respected Anglachel if she had just taken TC off her blog roll for whatever reason — but her public “dressing down” of TC based on bullsh!t is why I lost all respect for her.

    Anglachel reminds me of this white “liberal” Northern girl I went to college with who always said about how r@cist southerns were compared to up North. She came with me to NOLA for Mardi Gras & actually asked me how I could live in a place with so many black people. {rolls eyes} Her opinon on who is or isn’t r@cist and $5 will buy you a cup of coffee at the Four Seasons.

  240. Quote from Lambert:

    NOTE Re Mandos: Yeah, not the greatest post in the world. However, Anglachel went through the thesis, and found it sound. So much for that.

    Apparently for him, Anglachel’s word is law. LOL!

  241. jjmtacoma: Agreed. We had to find one outlet that wasn’t slobbering all over You Know Who 24/7. But even they weren’t as hard hitting (with the exception of Hannity) as I would have expected.

  242. Jews turned in jews under Hitler, so none of this surprises me. Wait, yes it does. Because I thought those sad and horrid times were history, not historical. What is happening now is what always happens, because we turn away from history when it suits us. and it suits us. and the rest of us are left to run from the left to the right and back again, trying to find respite. but it does not exist.

  243. Myiq2xu-being on Chri$tina’s and Kevins “S” list should be a badge of honor!

  244. And bringing Katiebird into it:

    NOTE You know, because I’m a teddy bear, I’m not going to go back and quote all the favorable comments that have been made about me, back in the day, at TC. IIRC, “secret love” was mentioned. And so forth. How things change.

    Sure lots of us liked his writing up to the point when he called us a bunch of racists. We were supposed to overlook that?

  245. Aww, shucks Pat, BB, thanks. It’s not everyday you can go fishing for compliments and actually get them. 🙂
    (I wasn’t really… I was really being a smartass.)

  246. well, i have to go to bed, early lecture in the morning .. g’nite all! love to every one here on TC …you keep me sane and functioning in a crazy crazy world!

  247. ‘night, Kat!

  248. now you can probably be added Corrente and Archangle’s “S” list.

    I hope Sheri isnt to sick….(note to self say prayer for sheri)

  249. bb is a she, not a he, Lambert. Nice point on being “observant” though.

  250. G’night, Dakinikat!

  251. nite dakinikat!

  252. I’d like to see us get so many front-pagers we would have new posts going up every 30 minutes during the day and evening hours.

  253. night dakinikat!

  254. G’night kat!

  255. Bravo, myiq!

  256. Another thing I don’t get in that Corrente thread. Apparently there was some issue about the blog awards and that we cheated? The rules right on the award site said you could vote once a day from any computer and went on to give instructions about how to vote on multiple computers in your own home. But somehow because we followed the rules, we cheated? I don’t understand that argument.

  257. Night Kat my love sweet dreams as a weave a web of protection around you with the help of the Creator Father-mother God/dess!

    Oh I am praying real hard for Sheri Arabella and SM that fortune may smile down upon them with good solid employment! Oh crap who else iis supposed to be on My list….darn plese some one remind me…

  258. I don’t want to spend my morning coffee hour reading: “Walking After Midnight and Why It Is Not Good For You” by Capt. Spaulding as an example.

  259. I don’t understand that argument.

    Me neither

  260. I will not be able to sleep if I forget who else has been stabbed in the back by the O-conomy?

  261. bostonboomer, on February 16th, 2009 at 12:01 am Said:

    Another thing I don’t get in that Corrente thread. Apparently there was some issue about the blog awards and that we cheated? The rules right on the award site said you could vote once a day from any computer and went on to give instructions about how to vote on multiple computers in your own home. But somehow because we followed the rules, we cheated? I don’t understand that argument.

    BB, this is another reason why I find the “I won’t vote for Obama but will hate on PUMA” bloggers pathetic. They attack us every chance they get but ignore the Obot site who was really cheating – Wankette – who also told their readers to vote for blogs they’d never heard of so that PUMA bloggers like Uppity Woman would lose. Corrente sees us as easy targets even though they have more in common with us than they do with Obot sites.

  262. Is a new thread going up soon? This one is getting a little long for my browser.

  263. Oh dear. Lambert has selectively quoted me in his yawn post and has assumed I am a man! I didn’t say he voted for Obama. I said *IF* he voted for Obama. Apparently he wrote in Hillary. I wonder why Lambert thinks I’m a “he,” especially when I’ve never made a secret of my gender. Hmmmm……

  264. Cinie is one of our newest front-pagers and my main competition for the title of “snarkmeister”

  265. DV, ACORN has problems but also does good work.

    Dakinikat, that sounds good.

    I know Raines is a bad character. His wikipedia:

    Role in the subprime mortgage crisis

    In accordance with the mission of Fannie Mae to enable home ownership by a greater proportion of the population, Franklin Raines, while Chairman and CEO, began a pilot program in 1999 to issue bank loans to individuals with low to moderate income, and to ease credit requirements on loans that Fannie Mae purchased from banks. Raines promoted the program saying that it would allow consumers who were “a notch below what our current underwriting has required” to get home loans. The move was intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners. Some observers have noted that the expansion of easy credit to home buyers with a lesser ability to pay them back was one of the major contributing factors to the subprime mortgage crisis. Although under Raines, Fannie Mae invested in some securities backed by subprime loans, it didn’t start buying subprime and Alt-A loans directly (and bundling them into securities) until late 2004 after the accounting scandal. Purchasing of subprime and alt-A mortgages expanded exponentially under the guidance of Raines’s successor Daniel H. Mudd.

    In the New York Times John Steele Gordon wrote an opinion criticizing Raines’ contribution to the 2008 financial crisis caused by the failure of Fannie Mae. “He cooked the books at Fannie to increase his compensation (more than $90 million).”

    On December 9, 2008, he testified before the United States House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform on Capitol Hill regarding Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, and financial market instability.

    Raines and Obama connection

    On 16 July 2008 The Washington Post reported that Franklin Raines had “taken calls from Barack Obama’s presidential campaign seeking his advice on mortgage and housing policy matters.” Also, in an editorial in August 27, 2008 titled “Tough Decision Coming”, the Washington Post editorial staff wrote that “Two members of Mr. Obama’s political circle, James A. Johnson and Franklin D. Raines, are former chief executives of Fannie Mae.”

  266. bb: He probably thinks you are to smart to be a woman. Only we know differently.

  267. DV — see, everyone needs to feel superior to someone. Lambert likes to pretend he is superior to us — good for him — but I would like to point out, such thinking is what keeps the actual homophobes & r@cists in power.

  268. “Walking After Midnight and Why It Is Not Good For You”

    Are you referring to “How to become an Organ Donor?”

  269. She has a far better avatar for starters.

  270. Dakinikat
    Economic downturns hurt most people. The only color involved in it is lack of green.
    Your posts make people think. Thinking is hard work. It much easier to cry rac–t or republican then to try to understand the problems and maybe try to find a solution for your own personal economic situation.
    Don’t you dare let fools bother you. You can try to teach but it is up to them to learn.



  271. BB, you’ve made me laugh about a dozen times tonight!

    “secret love” was mentioned”

    I really miss having a “secret love” — but if he couldn’t see the irony of announcing it in a BLOG then someone left out irony when they glued on his head.

    {{FuzzyBear} I’m never going to reel in your heart — it wouldn’t be possible and I wouldn’t want to.

  272. fuzzy…then pray for us all…pray for us all…

  273. (laughing) I did like Lambert’s posts back then. But, even back then the “secret love” stuff made me giggle. Didn’t it always sound silly?

  274. Pat,

    It has to be something related to gender. Meanwhile Lambert is proud of voting for Hillary. Isn’t that a protest vote too?

  275. bb: He says.

  276. Katiebird,

    Apparently, Lambert bought your humor hook line and sinker. Too bad he had to call you a racist and mess up his little fantasy.

  277. For those who haven’t seen this yet, youtube video of Chris Matthews admitting that he voted for RNC chairman Michael Steele: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JmVo0dmpPRM
    So we’re r@cist Republicans but Chris Matthews and Andrew Sullivan are A-Okay in the Obot book.

  278. Okay, sorry this leads to a page with a logo shared by MSNBO, but…. Tonight my husband alerted me to a special report on CNBC called “House Of Cards” which traces the origins of the global economic crisis. Gosh, turns out they’re all pretty much right here in our own back yard (literally, in this case), and can can be boiled down to the five letters g-r-e-e-d. Surprise!

    The report includes an incredible bit with Sir F.R. Greenspan (ret.) during which he defends the free market rationale to the death because, gosh, you can’t just outlaw human greed. (Did my jaw drop during this part? Yup, almost dislocated it. )

    This CNBC program is the clearest explication of the housing meltdown, in layperson terms, that I’ve come across so far. (Of course, I’d love to hear d’kat’s take on it.) Still planning to watch the Frontline special on the same subject Tues. night, though.

    Anyway, here’s the link and the viewing schedule for anyone who’s interested in subsequent airings this week:


  279. Chris Matthews=Rush Limbaugh=Insanity

  280. myiq,

    Are you posting a thread? If not, I will.

  281. DV, yes, it was always that. We were easy targets because we were women. We were only victims last year.

    PUMA was only about two things

    1) The stolen nomination but this time Democrats stole from Democrats.

    2) Historic misogyny

    Race and racism never entered the picture. Anti-PUMAs used selective reading and cherry-picking to deny 1), 2) and our power.

  282. Kat5, I watched that show the other evening. It was pretty interesting – especially the interviews.

  283. BB, it was over between us wayyyyy before that. About the time he banned his best blogger.

  284. Kat5: Thanks for the reminder. I saw the guy who did this piece on Morning Joe last week and wrote a reminder of the time which I believe was Friday night. Something came up and I missed it. Thanks for providing the link to future outings.

    It did look good.

  285. New thread up:

    “The Confluence Oscars Pool”

  286. That sounds interesting, Kat5. I’ll try to catch it.

  287. Katiebird,


  288. BostonBoomer:

    Sorry, fixed.

  289. alright, i admit i’m lost in all of this. lambert, archangel, manudo, who are these people. so i’ve made some brief visits, and my quick first impressions, quick because time is running out..

    1) tc cares with its heart as much as it thinks with its head. the others, not so much. policy should serve the people, not the inverse. and who the hell says bollocks unless you’re english like drew sullivan. american politics is about american people.

    2) convergence is necessary. seems there are some boxed in egos out there looking for a reason to be. again, time is running out. the choice is either mental masturbation or thoughtful and passionate activism. your serve.

  290. Lambert,

    How would I know who you voted for in November? I only know that you said all along you would vote for the Democrat, then you seemed to struggle with that choice. If you didn’t vote against Obama, you enabled misogyny and all the rest.

  291. Thanks for this, bostonboomer and DV:

    Another thing I don’t get in that Corrente thread. Apparently there was some issue about the blog awards and that we cheated? The rules right on the award site said you could vote once a day from any computer and went on to give instructions about how to vote on multiple computers in your own home. But somehow because we followed the rules, we cheated? I don’t understand that argument.

    BB, this is another reason why I find the “I won’t vote for Obama but will hate on PUMA” bloggers pathetic. They attack us every chance they get but ignore the Obot site who was really cheating – Wankette – who also told their readers to vote for blogs they’d never heard of so that PUMA bloggers like Uppity Woman would lose. Corrente sees us as easy targets even though they have more in common with us than they do with Obot sites.

    There were many reports Wonkette was cheating. I saw a post by Dakinikat on Facebook about a blog war. PUMAs were beseiged so I asked Will if I could send an email and I did having no idea it wasn’t okay to vote once a day on a computer. A few days later, I read the rules which said one person could vote each day. The numbers did not budge after I sent the email so I doubt many cheated. I followed the tallies a few days which went up 300 a day. So PUMAs didn’t cheat. Obots massively cheated.

  292. I think this should no longer be an ongoing issue. Why?

    I just visited these sites. Anglachel posts about once every several weeks and has fewer than 10 comments on most of her latest posts (I remember in her heyday when she’d post several times each day and had nearly a hundred comments on some posts). Lambert’s post replying to us only has one comment.

    We have nearly 300 comments.

    In the words of the Messiah, “I won”.

  293. Gnite d’kat.

  294. And Valhalla: I hope that you ignore some of these blog wars and come more often to post your opinion on issues and policy. Someone as thoughtful as yourself should start your own blog but until then you should come here more often.

  295. Slow reader, me. Heading upstairs now!

  296. bboomer — yes, I’m still here (at least until I have to run to put my laundry in the dryer). Lambert’s engagement with most other blogs is that way (at least that I’ve seen) — he mostly engages with others on his own site, which some of our posters do here, too, so I can’t really fault him for that.

    In fairness, Lambert has been very encouraging on many fronts to TC (esp. with respect to pointing out the caucus fraud work and, iirc, using the power of PUMA to call for the procedurally correct floor vote at the convention), as well as on other points that I remember reading although can’t recall right now the specifics of. (I’m sorry, I’m very tired right now). I often agree with him, sometimes don’t agree (the dakinikat post being one), but I appreciate the effort, and frequent success he has at sticking to a fairly consistent analytical framework — which includes calling out what he terms ‘truthiness’ and deconstructing the various zombie memes we’re surrounded by these days. He’s has definitely called bullsh*t on obotism and other obot cr*p more times than I can count.

    That doesn’t negate, or erase, any of the stuff with the dakinikat post, or the reliance on Anglachel’s nastily-worded post (I’m not sure whether he was agreeing with her econ. analysis or her evaluation of us to prove us ‘toxic’ or whatever she said, and at this point I don’t really want to ask for clarification). I just offer those observations as chance to present a more multidimensional picture of my experience over at Corrente (oops, sorry for using such a stupid buzzword but I can’t think of a better word).

    myiq and dakinikat — I can’t find Lambert’s original request of Mandos (despite your good signposts), although I think I did read it at the time and had the impression that he was asking him to post on some aspect of the bank bailout, not encouraging him to insult dak further. Of course, Mandos was unable to take him up on the offer without digging, yet again, at PUMA, although he tried to hide it behind faux self-deprecatory snark.

    The ‘secret love’ thing — I really, really don’t think he was being obtuse or insulting here. Am I misreading entirely? Actually, I thought it was a bit wistful…

    And now I’m going to stop trying to interpret at both sites and go get my laundry!

    oops — except to note that I was only addressing bboomer in that first para., the rest is just to the world at large.

  297. We da beer truck here and it’s fun on da truck (as opposed to being under da bus)!

  298. Thanks Valhalla,

    I’m over it now. Really the most offensive thing Lambert did was to demand that we reveal how we moderate comments and somehow “prove” that we had deleted offensive ones. I found it really patronizing. But I agree he has done lots of great work. And I wouldn’t have found the confluence except for his link to it long ago.

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