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Been There…but Ya Can’t Get There From Here.

cats-fighting-with-text

The conversation over the last week or so has been interesting to say the least.  Encouraging enough that we are discussing how women can overcome the obstacles that keep us at bay in our culture; but discouraging when you realize we are our own worst enemies.  First wave, second wave, third wave, fourteenth wave of feminism…does it matter?  Does it? We have been ‘waving’ for quite some time now…and we are still waiting for equality.

What is it that we need to do?  Find consensus on the term “feminism?”  In my opinion, that is just what they (the patriarchy) would love for us to do – fight amongst ourselves over semantics – from now until they’re tired of running things.  We need to ask ourselves WHAT DO WE WANT?  If the answer is equality of opportunity, access, and treatment in society – why does it matter what feminism means?  I mean REALLY…isn’t that just a red herring?  Women represent the majority of voters in the country, and the statistics indicate this trend will not be waning anytime soon.  Our equality of opportunity, access, and treatment in society BEGINS with the political process.  There are currently a majority of men holding positions in both Houses of Congress.  Forgetting political parties and ideologies, how would our issues of equality of opportunity, access, and treatment fare if the gender ratios were reversed?

This is how we must begin to overcome, and as Sojourner Truth said, just take what is ours.  We need to stop trying to label or de-label each other based on some unsolved mystery we call the definition of feminism.  We may have to concede some of our ideologically pure stances to gain this majority – those battles we can have when we attain the majority.  Right now, those ideologies are holding us back.  A few months back I wrote a post asking “Where is our common consciousness?”  I find myself still wondering that after much debate has passed through this online community.  Forget political parties – both have screwed us over, run us over, and tossed us overboard.

We need to define our goal, not a word.  Once we define our goal…(could it be equality of access, opportunity, and treatment?) then we move forward.  51% and beyond.

OK…take your turns, I can take it.

235 Responses

  1. First!

  2. At this rate…and this time of the night — you may be last too! (not counting me…)

  3. Okay, now that that’s out of the way: I agree with you completely SoD. I think most people here do. But there were a few notable dissenters.

  4. And in a few minutes I’m crashing as well!

  5. It is just a shame to see people actually going at each other over a “definition” — we have so much in common and so much work to do.

  6. Except the definition of feminism really isn’t a mystery. It just means someone who supports social and economic equality for women. Or an individual woman who doesn’t want to be treated like shit. It’s very simple. Why there has to be some kind of competition for who qualifies, I’ll never know.

  7. I’m gone to see Hillary’s site before I crash. You’ve seen what I think of trying to maintain “feminism” as the mantra (or whatever)

  8. Yes and I agree that it’s a distraction. I consider myself to be a feminist. The fact that someone else doesn’t is irrelevant and unimportant.

  9. Love the graphic, SOD!

  10. Amen, DYB.

  11. Boomer…that’s just the problem. Some see it as “simple” others want to put it in more complex terms — therein the divide.

    I’m beginning to think the patriarchy came up with the word feminism to keep us preoccupied and in conflict with each other. Not to mention the derogatory use of it by many.

  12. The picture made me laugh…but be careful. Someone might accuse you of being sexist! 😉

  13. Recently it’s like throwing raw meat to a group of aligators when you bring up the term “feminism”

    If the word tears us apart — get rid of the word… seek the goal.

  14. My cat just bit me. He’s trying to be playful…cats!

  15. DYB — if anyone has the nerve to call us sexist for using cats as metaphors then they’re just being silly.

  16. SOD
    I’m with you, exactly right.

  17. It’s always been that way, unfortunately. Some people think it’s a dirty word and others use it to judge each other. Frankly, I don’t care if anyone calls me a feminist. I never really think of myself that way. I just think women should be treated like human beings.

  18. amen boomer!! we’ve got to turn our eyes to the goal…and stop arguing over something that will never matter in the long run.

  19. It’s not like we get a free toaster if everyone accepts us as “feminists.”

  20. Goddess I love this place ….♥

  21. DYB! LMAO!! you’re right.

    “right now…qualify under the definition of “feminist” and receive a free set of Ginsui Knives… “

  22. Hi swannie…

  23. I’m still waiting for the toaster you get when you convert people to “gay.” It might have gotten lost in the mail.

  24. HI SoD 😉 <—waving great post …. really great post …

  25. DYB! LOL!

  26. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism

    I love theory as much as anyone…but I am also a pragmatist . I think and act … therefore I am a pragmatic feminist ………. goal oriented

  27. Swanspirit

    What seems to tie women up in knots is the “campaign for women’s rights and interests.” Women’s interests are as diverse as women are…

  28. I’m going nighty night! Good night SOD, swannie, and bb…and whoever else is around!

  29. Hi all — the main reason I consider myself a feminist is because I am a woman — that makes me a feminist by birth (that is, I think all women are feminists — none of us want to be treated like sh!t).There are women who makes choices that only reinforces the definition that the patriarchy has for us (and there are only two: Madonna or whore) only do so because the patriarchy is so ingrained that they believe those are the only choices. I don’t blame these women, but I do think it is required that they be let in on the reality that there are more than those two choices available & that they do not have to define themselves (or be defined by) them.
    As to the word itself — I like using it because of the ire it invokes from the patriarchy & the fact that some women run away from the term. They can ridicule me all they want, but I prove there judgment wrong with each and every one of my actions.

  30. Someone here linked to this site awhile back and I signed up for the weekly (rather than daily) email newsletter. I love it. Thanks to whoever it was. Good coverage of women’s issues.

    http://www.nationalpartnership.org/site/PageServer

  31. Oh, I missed DYB — night!!

  32. Anyone still around?

  33. I’m here!

  34. Therein lies the problem, “political parties- both have screwed us over” and yet, we are waiting for someone to GIVE US “This G*D Damn freedom deemed under the Constitution, instead of demanding it. for ourselves.
    All females are feminist do we need to find consensus on the term “feminism?”
    Simply put, if you are female a women then you are placed in the categorical row of Feminism. Feminism isn’t a movement it is a state of being.

    Ask yourself this; How can the most powerful nation in the world America, not have equal rights under its constitution? It is shameful and unjust and not worthy of a “Democratic” country.

    “Democratic means” Characterized by or advocating or based upon the principles of democracy or social equality

    Women (feminist) unless you get the ERA Ratified all else is futile, because it can all be wipe away in a second because we (females) are not protected under our own country’s CONSTITUTION.

    So in my humble opinion there is only one type of Feminism and that is the type that fights, demands and will guaranteesERA under the Constitution, as I have previous states all else pales by comparison..

  35. I’m here!

  36. I have no idea whether I’m a feminist — I do know that I’m a woman that watched a patriarchal society trample on my gender — and some of the feet belonged to other women.

  37. Hi Angie!

  38. Why should I stop to ask whether Sarah Palin is a feminist before I pull the lever?

    Would I vote for Sarah Palin for president? You Betcha.

  39. What if we had 83 female senators and 17 male senators?

    What if there were 361 female House Reps and 74 male House reps?

    Would the ERA be passed? You Betcha!

  40. If I promote equality for women, am I a feminist, but if I promote equality for all races am I a r*cist? If my concerns are perceived as feminist, will they be addressed faster or slower than if they are perceived as the concerns of women? Sometimes semantics count, words can be used to marginalize groups and issues regardless of how they were intended to be applied.

  41. Shit, hit a button and in the middle to the reply it disappears!

    I was saying that when I read this in the earlier discussion I shook my head:

    once you drop the dick from between your legs you might begin to understand. and I think some men can understand, but you have proven you cannot.

    I believe “thinking” males are for equal rights, i.e. equal pay for equal work (maybe not the bosses), reproductive rights for women (but then you have women who are against them) and the rest of the rights all people are entitled to.

    But when I read something like the quote above, it, pardon me, “frosts my balls”. It makes it appear to be “wominz club only-no penises allowed. And as i said in that thread, the saddest thing there was women arguing back and forth about what is and who is a feminist.

    Just as a general question, Angie you stated above:

    Hi all — the main reason I consider myself a feminist is because I am a woman — that makes me a feminist by birth (that is, I think all women are feminists — none of us want to be treated like sh!t)

    Would you consider Phyllis Schafly a feminist? Or Nancy Reagan?

  42. Hi SOD!!

    When I was a little girl I remember in school hearing that it was important to have more AAs in high profile positions so that AA children could have positive role models– remember that? Well, what i want is to have enough women in high profile positions (not Madonna or whore ones) so that young girls can have positive role models. I think the vast majority of role models that are available now fit into the whore category — and before I get attacked: I am NOT calling them whores — I am stating that is what their role in the patriarchy is & I accept that they are a victim of the patriarchy which is why they do the things they do. Nonetheless, these are not good role models– that is, they are not who women in society should aspire to be. If any woman out there wants to say I’m not a feminist for saying that sobeit. I didn’t give a sh!t when the Obots called me a r@cists & I’m not going to give a sh!t when someone says I’m not a feminist.

  43. Stateofdisbelief, on February 1st, 2009 at 1:51 am Said:

    What if we had 83 female senators and 17 male senators?

    What if there were 361 female House Reps and 74 male House reps?

    Would the ERA be passed? You Betcha!

    SOD-Doesn’t it have to be ratified by the states? Did they ever get the amendment out to the states for votes? Honestly, I can’t remember.

  44. Fredster — exactly! Just MHO, I don’t need a label – I need results.

  45. Fredster — no woman wants to be treated like sh!t — therefore she is a feminist. There are plenty of women who “know not what they do.” They are victims of the patriarchy. I feel I have every right to say their actions are wrong, however, without being told I am “blaming the woman for the patriarchy” because if I don’t say their actions are wrong then they will never be able to be enlightened about how the patriarchy has brainwashed them/used them, etc.

  46. Fredster — I think we only need three more states to ratify.

  47. Fredster — from Wikipedia

    The three-state strategy is an argument made by some ERA supporters that the earlier 35 state ratifications are still valid and therefore only three more are needed in order to add the ERA to the Constitution, without Congress resubmitting it to state lawmakers.

    The three-state strategy was publicly unveiled at a press conference held in Washington, D.C., in December, 1993. According to an Associated Press report, “a coalition of women’s groups,” operating under the name “ERA Summit,” planned “to ask Congress to nullify 1982 deadline for ratification.”[18] Early the following year, Congressman Robert E. Andrews (D-NJ) introduced a resolution in the House of Representatives to require that “when the legislatures of an additional three states ratify the Equal Rights Amendment, the House of Representatives shall take any legislative action necessary to verify the ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment as a part of the Constitution.”[19] No action was taken on the resolution, which has also been introduced in subsequent Congresses.

    An article published in the William and Mary Journal of Women and the Law in 1997[20] explains a legal rationale for the “three-state strategy.” It argues that:

    The 35 ratifications from state legislatures during the 1970s remain valid;
    Rescissions of prior ratifications are not constitutional;
    The 1978 extension of the ERA’s deadline demonstrates that Congress can amend previously established deadlines; and
    The Twenty seventh Amendment’s 202½ year ratification period set a standard of “sufficiently contemporaneous”—a term used during the U.S. Supreme Court’s 1921 ruling in Dillon v. Gloss—giving Congress the power to set time limits on constitutional amendments. Dillon v. Gloss was later modified by Coleman v. Miller, which is also a basis for the three state strategy.
    The article further reasons that because the Constitution gives the Congress the power to propose amendments to the Constitution—and including changing aspects of the ratification process itself— that if and when three additional states ratify the ERA, the Congress has the power to deem the ERA properly ratified and duly added to the Constitution.

    Opponents of the three-state strategy point out that the 1789 resolution proposing what is known today as the Twenty seventh Amendment (“Madison Amendment”), dealing with congressional pay raises, did not contain a deadline for ratification.

    In 1996, the Library of Congress’ Congressional Research Service issued a report that said, “There is no precedent for Congress promulgating an amendment based on state ratifications adopted after a ratification deadline has expired. However, proponents of this course cite as possible precedent the ratification activity of the states regarding the 27th Amendment… proponents of the ERA might wish to adopt a strategy of urging its ratification by state legislatures because their actions might prompt this or a future Congress to proclaim the amendment had been ratified.” CRS stressed that it “takes no position on any of the issues.”[21]

    Several state legislatures have considered the three-state strategy, but none has passed a resolution:

    The first state legislature to consider a ratification resolution based on the “three-state” theory was Virginia, in 1994. The resolution was not approved.[22]
    The Illinois House of Representatives on May 21, 2003, adopted a resolution ratifying the ERA—proposed in 1972. However, the Illinois Senate did not ratify the ERA and resolution died at the end of 2004.
    On April 5, 2005, the Arkansas Senate voted 16 yeas, 15 nays and 4 “not voting” on a resolution to approve the ERA. Under the Arkansas Senate parliamentary rules, this type of resolution requires a majority vote—that is, at least 18 votes for the amendment.
    During 2007, ERA ratification resolutions were introduced in Arizona, Arkansas, Florida, Illinois, Louisiana, Missouri, and Mississippi. The Arkansas resolution (HJR 1002) failed in a committee of the state House, after 20 legislators (including two members of the committee) withdrew their co-sponsorships of the resolution. Pro-life groups claim the change was due in part to their intervention.[23] On May 15, 2007, the Committee on Civil Law and Procedure of the Louisiana House defeated a similar ERA ratification resolution (HCR 4), on a vote of 5 to 4.[24]

  48. Cinie — I’m not sure I understand what you’re trying to say.

  49. It seems that if you mention any of those white people you are called a r@cist ala Hillary & LBJ. That obvious homophobe DL Hughley on his show (why do they let him have a show?) said to Savage (a gay activist) that the civil rights movement belong to AAs first & foremost. And the moron Savage agreed! I’m hoping it was to avoid a “fight” on the show & to get back to what was under discussion (prop 8) but you know what? I lost a lot of respect for Savage for choosing to “be polite” to that massively wrong a–hole Hughley instead of standing up to him.

  50. angie — how many times will I say WTH this year??? These people have lost all their marbles I swear!

  51. Just as there were many white people who joined the cause for African Americans.

    Good point and I guess that’s what I was getting to. But it seems that some people don’t want to let the boiz in the club just as some A.A’s. didn’t feel that white people had anything to offer in their struggle.

    Angie said: There are plenty of women who “know not what they do.” They are victims of the patriarchy.

    So you would feel that Schafly doesn’t know what she’s doing, but you do hold her accountable for her wrong actions? have every right to say their actions are wrong, however, without being told I am “blaming the woman for the patriarchy” because if I don’t say their actions are wrong then they will never be able to be enlightened about how the patriarchy has brainwashed them/used them, etc.

  52. ERA — and the labels won’t mean a thing.

    The big problem is — women are women’s worst enemies.

    Also we learned this political season that there are “gate keepers” to who is and is not a fem*****.

    I have more respect for Heidi who has set a goal — 51%

    What seems to have happened is that a bunch of women have grabbed a word a label and decided that only they can play with that word.

    Get rid of the damned word — if these women want to take the word and then bestow this word on someone who is the complete opposite of what this word is supposed to mean — then these gate keepers have succeeded in trashing this word. (Ms. Mag > awarded title to top misogynist).

    The goal should still be — passage of the ERA — in our lifetime. This year would be nice.

  53. I think I understand what Cinie was saying. But I’ve learned it is sooo much more comfortable not commenting, so I’ll shut up.

  54. Fred…they are just flat out in denial or uninformed.

  55. Fredster — it depends on what you mean hold her accountable — I don’t blame her for the patriarchy. I understand she has been brainwashed by it. But I do believe I have the right to say her actions are wrong in an effort to make her see her error (probably not possible, she is too deep into the brainwashing) and to show other women her errors so that they can resist the brainwashing.

  56. {{{ reaching for a high-five from Northwest Rain }}}

    Amen!

  57. I guess wiki can tell me which states have ratified; I’ll have to look it up.

    I wouldn’t look to LA to try to ratify again (can they do that?) Not with Jindal in the gov’s seat and the state turning redder with each election.

  58. I’m back!

  59. Northwest Rain — very good point. I keep saying this but I’m saying it again: the only place in the Constitution were the word “women” is written is the 19th Amendment. That means: the only Constitutional right women have is the right to vote.

  60. You don’t have an axe with you do you myiq??

  61. In the 21st century, where is the leverage to change the status quo? During the past election cycle, the three biggest shocks for me were, 1) the Dem. Leadership was totally corrupt 2)the “so called” progressives are no better than the “wing-nuts” and 3) the ease with which the leadership of “women’s organizations” threw women under the Bus.

    Going forward, where is pressure to make change going to come from?
    Forget the despicable behavior during the election, these organizations should have been going “bat shit” crazy about Obama’s behavior to kick women to the curb for “bi-partisanship”.

  62. What kind?

    I have several

  63. Angie — We need a full page ad that says just that.

  64. SHV! — I’ve been waiting to tell you something!

  65. SHV — too many women were busy calling Hillary a “B**ch” and Sarah a “C**t. to notice we were being thrown under the bus.

  66. myiq — it was a “Shining” reference per your “I’m Back”

  67. And btw that is why that title “sl*t-shaming” seems so stupid to me — the patriarchy allows women two roles: Madonna & whore. How is it “sl*t-shaming” to point out that some women have defined themselves (wittingly or unwittingly) by the patriarchy’s whore label? If you understand how the patriarchy works (i.e. how it is so insidious with its brainwashing) you understand that the woman herself is not to blame (or at minimum, less to blame).

  68. SOD, If we divide and conquer ourselves, we’ve already lost. Once you do that you have to compete with other victims of inequality, is “r*cism” worse than “sexism?” Whose issues come first? If “feminists” are angry, why should a politician care as much as he/she would if women were angry? Better yet, if people were angry? Spending time defining oneself as worthy of consideration keeps people too busy to do anything else and marginalizes and minimizes both one’s concerns and effectiveness. No woman wants to be treated like crap sounds nice, but it suggests elitism in that it ignores the more obvious point, no human being wants to be treated like crap.

  69. Angie at 2:09: I should know from lawyers and should have said “A simple yes or no will do.” 🙂

    What you said was in essence what I meant by accountable, i.e. accountable for her own actions.

    NW Rain: Yep, you’re absolutely right! When I saw that cover of THAT man and the idea that he was a feminist? As bad as the primary and election were I really thought “Oh shit, the world is turned topsy-turvy.

  70. 6′3″ — think bathroom, not kitchen.

    Now I’m gonna get blamed for making sexually explicit comments again.

  71. But there are still plumbing fixtures…The GF lucked out again, she just went to sleep. (But what is the point of this anyway)

  72. FIrst, they put you in a box…then they say “you idiot…you’re in a box.”

  73. SHV — my sentiments exactly.

  74. You commented last night after I went to bed

  75. angienc2, on February 1st, 2009 at 2:19 am Said:

    SHV — my sentiments exactly.
    ************
    F***ing on/in the bathroom sink?

  76. nevaaaaa mind!! 😉 just trying to clear up a little old business…

    carry on.

  77. SOD — maybe we do need that ad — and the bullsh!t that “it is so obvious that women have all the rights guaranteed by the Constitution” is just that: bullsh!t — 14th Amendment applies to men — it even says it right there in the Amendment. Yes, in practice we “have” them but that is ONLY through the pleasure of the patriarchy– no were in the Constitution is it actually written. We are supposed to be a nation of laws: I want my rights in writing in the Constitution. That is why we need the ERA.

  78. Hmmmm…..Heidi??? How much do we need for this ad??

  79. Cinie — I guess I can’t tell if we agree or disagree… (this happens to me sometimes at 2:30am)

  80. I have a problem with the idea that women are not responsible because they are brainwashed but then not allowing men the same defense.

    Men and women are equally brainwashed by the patriarchy.

  81. Angie, a quick question for clarification (no snark) that you can answer, or not. You’ve mentioned the Madonna & whore thing a few times today. You mean Madonna the Virgin Mary, not the rockstar, right? And if so, how can the patriarchy expect women to be the Madonna?

  82. i’m a feminist and if some people take it to mean that i am a sexist, so be it. i have supported everyone else’s rights and seen very little progress in the most important places for woman. i support 51% of the politicians to be women, i support 51% of college scholarships to go to women and i support 51% of important positions in business and industry going to woman. until we have this, we will not have the decision makers, the personnel and qualifying boards and managers to screen job applicants for hiring, screen applicants for financial aid in schools and making decisions with a woman’s point of view. i went to a retirement party last night. the man who hired me in a nontraditional job supported me in my endeavors for the past 25 years, as did his bosses before him. if it wasn’t for these kind mentors, i wouldn’t have had a chance because at the time of being hired, i worked with some very hostile guys that have gradually hired or were forced to change their tune. i was given the chance and at times was the only woman. now we are 50%. i support women to positions of leadership and power. if abortion is in there, i will support all women to have a choice in the same way i have had. but, young women need to know that things can be reversed on them and they need to continue the struggle. i am now focusing on womens’ rights in the senior citizen arena as i am quickly approaching this next step in my life. i expect to work in my retirement and want to make sure that ageism and sexism is not used against me. fight the good fight. it will make the world a better place.

  83. myiq — I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment about both sexes being brainwashed. It’s really an entire culture.

  84. myiq2xu, on February 1st, 2009 at 2:24 am Said:

    I have a problem with the idea that women are not responsible because they are brainwashed but then not allowing men the same defense.

    Men and women are equally brainwashed by the patriarchy.
    *************
    I think the problem also involves evolutionary biology; which makes changing the status quo much more difficult.

  85. THAT would be a great ad —

    Under the US Constitution women have only ONE right — THE VOTE.

    (or to vote)

    ——————-

    The Supreme Court has reaffirmed woman’s inferior status on several occasions.

    (WHAT is wrong with women’s — my spell checker flags that as a misspelled word. Women’s right — That would be ALL women’s rights — my spell checker underlines women’s).

  86. 3 Wickets– the Madonna (and of course not the rock star — she has obviously chosen to be defined by the whore label — which is a huge part of her success/mystique — the paradox of being both “Madonna” — because of her name — and whore). The Madonna is the “good girl” who the man wants to “bring home to mother” to marry & have a family with. The whore is there purely for his sexual pleasure. This is not a unique labeling that I came up with — the Madonna/whore complex has been widely written about.

  87. N’west, spell check doesn’t like contractions.

  88. Yes, both sexes are brainwashed by the patriarchy but there is much less downside for the male sex in it.

  89. Northwest / Angie — that’s a whole marketing campaign for the ERA right there!!

    By God! SOmeone take that and run with it!

  90. you understand that the woman herself is not to blame (or at minimum, less to blame).

    I disagree with that. Do you remember how all you women were making the comments about the Jim Palmer underwear ad some days/weeks ago? That pic was changed by the time I got here to the site but I remembered it. [grin]

    Had any fallout occurred to Palmer due to the ad (wasn’t he at the end of his career by then?) I would have blamed him for being silly enough to do it.

    I think the same to be true with this woman. If she had any ideas of a career other than modeling for Maxim magazine which entailed a high visibility position, then she should have though otherwise about posing for the mag. If there are repercussions from doing such a modeling gig then it was her choice to do the modeling thing.

    Was it after that that she went on to the Kennedy School of Government? If so, then she has bona fides for a position in government. However, I’m not going to hold her harmless in her choice of posing for the mag.

  91. For the record, I totally reject the validity of the Madonna/whore complex. Not that it doesn’t exist, but that it should be recognized.

  92. Thanks.

  93. It’s really an entire culture.

    The patriarchy IS our culture. Or, more precisely, our culture is a patriarchy.

    It’s more egalitarian than it used to be, but it’s still a patriarchy.

    Each of us was born into it – it’s thousands of years old. No one is in charge. It can’t be overthrown, it has to be changed.

  94. and, if there is one thing that obama has broken the glass ceiling for future women presidents, there is no need for a woman to have executive experience to be president since it is not a requirement for men. we can thank him for that. i guess.

  95. Some women acknowledge and internalize the M/W complex, then accede to it or rail against it. For me, it’s somebody else’s problem, not mine.

  96. Yes, both sexes are brainwashed by the patriarchy but there is much less downside for the male sex in it.

    My point is that men are blamed for their behavior while women are excused.

  97. Fredster — that is the point — Palmer did NOT have any fallout from the ad. I don’t even have to look it up to know that. That is how the patriarchy works.
    As to a woman who poses in Maxim — it doesn’t matter if it “works out ok” for her — that is not the point. She is still being defined by (wittingly or unwittingly) as the whore role that the patriarchy allows her. And it will come back to haunt her –not today or tomorrow maybe but it will — whenever she seeks to throw off the whore role, the patriarchy will be there to make sure she can’t. That is how the patriarchy works.

  98. true enough scruz! ZERO resume is now the bar…

  99. should have though should have thought

    (I’m getting tired too)

  100. Thanks was to you Angie. I have no opinion on it at this point.

  101. Cinie — what do you mean that it shouldn’t be recognized? Do you mean that I shouldn’t say that women are defined as either one or the other by the patriarchy? Because if so, I think that is ignoring the elephant in the room — I believe women need to be aware exactly how the patriarchy is defining them so they can resist both roles.

  102. myiq2xu, on February 1st, 2009 at 2:33 am Said:

    Each of us was born into it – it’s thousands of years old. No one is in charge. It can’t be overthrown, it has to be changed.
    ************
    Millions of years? Gets to the point about what role does evolutionary biology have on the “culture”.

  103. OK…waaaaaaaaaayyy past my bedtime… You guys always make the debate interesting.

    Someone please feed the cats when they’re done (above) 🙂

  104. SHV — I did a post on a similar topic a while back

    https://riverdaughter.wordpress.com

  105. Or just write a book (fiction) call it an autobiography — and refer everyone to the book (or a website) — this is the future.

    Could be that more moles are being readied to be the next 0zero.

  106. Thanks for the link..

  107. Angie, so what if that double standard exists? Why should women judge other women on that basis, especially if it’s so inherently unfair? It seems to me, the women who are harshest in their criticism of other women’s choices are women who have accepted the validity of the good girl/bad girl premise.

  108. Do you think if Obama had posed for Playgirl when he was in his 20’s that would not have affected his career?

  109. myiq — nope…it would just be something else for the Naomi Wolfe’s of the world to swoon over…

  110. Smoking pot didn’t.

  111. myiq — first of all, women are blamed for their behavior — most of the time unfairly by the patriarchy — look at what happened to Hilary & Sarah. Men, however are not blamed for their behavior by the patriarchy (boys will be boys said James Carville re: the groper and everyone said “true, hee hee”). The only ones who are “blaming” men for their behavior are feminists. Is some of that blame unfair? Probably — but there it is.

  112. Hey, I’m in moderation!!!

  113. nothing there angie!

  114. Fredster — that is the point — Palmer did NOT have any fallout from the ad

    Oh yes he did! You all were making some not kind comments and I recall some laughing at his expense at the time.

    Still, he was at the end of his baseball career. The young woman in question was at the beginning of her career and should have had that in mind.

    Sort of like “If I go rob this bank, there’s a good chance I’m going to get caught and bad things could happen to me.” First, if I’m caught I’m more than likely going to jail. Second, my record as a bank-robber will follow me the rest of my days.

    These are not things I want to do because they will have consequences.

    Don’t we try to teach our children actions have consequences?

  115. Angie:

    When you say “blamed by the patriarchy” who are you talking about?

    Who is the patriarchy? Who makes the decisions, who brainwashes, who sets traps, etc.?

    Do they have meetings we can attend and protest?

  116. Cinie! LMAO — neither did “doing blow” –in fact didn’t some guy get hammered for alluding to it during a Clinton event? I’m sure if Obama had posed for Playgirl we would have all been told by the Patriarchy the sad story of his mother on food stamps & how he needed the money for school & he would have garnered everyone’s sympathy. Something that NEVER would have happened if it had been Palin who had posed for Playboy — look at what happened to her for being in a beauty pageant because she was in fact POOR & NEEDED THE $ FOR SCHOOL.

  117. I remember Palmer getting ribbed pretty good when he did the underwear ad, like Joe Namath in his pantyhose.

  118. myiq @ 2:51 — I expected better from you. You know the answer to your alleged “questions.”

  119. From SOD.
    ************
    One of my favorite parables is one told by a former Sociology professor about some cave dwellers who built fires in front of their caves to ward off the Saber-Tooth Tigers. Centuries after the extinction of the Saber-Tooth Tigers, this same community was still building fires in front of their caves. Those who stopped doing so were considered rebels, deviants, and harmful to society. It’s been many years, but its message still resonates with me today: that people begin a practice for one reason and many times continue the practice despite having long forgotten why it was done in the first place. Is this the problem with our society? Are we still “lighting fires in front of our caves” and blindly continuing a practice that may have been developed of necessity and then carried forward out of habit? Where is the genesis of this worldview and how do we turn a new page?”
    **************
    I agree and it’s similar to modern humans having an appendix; it was useful at some point in vertebrate evolution but now it only causes trouble. Same with our DNA…75% of which probably has no function for modern humans and is considered ‘junk”.

  120. Cinie — “ribbed” isn’t the same as getting his “career destroyed” Oh I’m sure the “boys” had a good chuckle over it. and there it ended.

  121. Cinie at 2:53- Oh that’s right! I forgot about Broadway Joe and the pantyhose!!

  122. What woman’s career is being destroyed by underwear ads, Angie?

  123. I expected better from you.

    Why does everyone keep dodging this question?

  124. Cinie –I just pointed out what happened to Palin because of her beauty pageants. Do you really need more? Do you think that if that girl Campoverdi ever decides to run for public office those photos in Maxim will not be used against her? Because if you do, you are mistaken — they will be used to make her out to be a bimbo — just like Palin’s beauty pageant days were used to make her out to be a bimbo.

  125. myiq — I’m not dodging the question — I know for a fact that last night you answered that same question from poplicola (and answered it correctly). So I know you are full of it when you try to ask the question of me know. Do you want me to link to your answer last night? Or do you want me to pretend I’m an idiot?

  126. Cinie– also, maybe I shouldn’t go so far as say “career destroyed” maybe I should have said “forever defined as a bimbo” because of the undwear ads.

  127. Okay folks I gotta go.

    Still have to do my midnight run to Walmart except it’s now like 2:00 a.m.

    I wish I could deal better with the crowds and stuff, but let me tell you: Walmart on a Saturday night in redneck Alabama is not a sight to behold or to have to deal with. 😆 It’s downright uuuuggggly. Better to deal with the shelf stockers at this time of the a.m.

    Later.

  128. Ah . . . the matriarchy / patriarchy

    I believe that the patriarchy is relatively recent — because it comes with a religious viewpoint.

    During the dark ages women were murdered by the millions for the crime of being female. (Called witches — but it was BECAUSE they were female.) That terrorist episode has remained in the European/Western subconscious.

    Women are not part of the US Constitution (as Angie reminds us — we are only recognized when women won the right to vote battle). When the Constitution was written I think there was still a debate about whether women were in fact fully human beings.

    But there were many tribes who recognize women as full human beings and many Indian tribes are matriarchies.

    If we consider the so called Primitive cultures as closer to the early European cultures — which were probably matriarchal — worship of the goddess etc — I believe that pre Patriarchial humans probably had a better understanding of the male/female balance of life and nature.

    Going back further in time — human tribes were of the hunter/gatherer variety — and both were needed for the survival of the tribe/clan.

    Going to another model — the social mammals — dogs — for example — a wolf pack has an alpha male and an alpha FEMALE. Then we have the elephants.

    Back to the present — we have women like Pelosi — who are copying the very worst of the patriarchy.

  129. Palin’s career wasn’t ruined, and certainly not because of a beauty pageant. Her party wasn’t equipped to run an adequate campaign, counter or otherwise. She got more flak about her Katie Couric interview and her decision to have a Down’s Syndrome baby. Her mothering skills, intellect and womanhood were attacked. All of which are totally and completely inexcusable. It would be equally unjustifiable for anyone to attack Campoverdi for her Maxim photos, imo.

  130. myiq2xu, on February 1st, 2009 at 2:51 am Said:

    Angie:

    When you say “blamed by the patriarchy” who are you talking about?

    Who is the patriarchy? Who makes the decisions, who brainwashes, who sets traps, etc.?

    Do they have meetings we can attend and protest?

    Okay, couldn’t resist. No myiq, but there is probably a 12 step program we can find for those of us engaged in the patriarchy.

    Okay, tomorrow y’all!

  131. I don’t deny that the patriarchy exists, but how to we quantify it. Is it the entirety of the male species in modern society. Is Bill Clinton in or out. If it’s just something dark and pernicious that pervades everything, its hard to focus and attack the areas that can change. How do we define patriarchy to make our purpose actionable.

  132. and, you won’t see hillary clinton getting any kind of recognition or kudos except here for paying her taxes and not having a nanny problem. jeez, these men pols certainly are a fraudulant group aren’t they?

  133. Cinie — I missed this response from you:

    Cinie, on February 1st, 2009 at 2:44 am Said:

    Angie, so what if that double standard exists? Why should women judge other women on that basis, especially if it’s so inherently unfair? It seems to me, the women who are harshest in their criticism of other women’s choices are women who have accepted the validity of the good girl/bad girl premise.

    With all due respect, you missed my entire point. I’m not saying that women should judge other women by the Madonna/whore labels. I am saying that women “choices” as you call them are bullsh!t — a 20 year old woman who chooses to pose in Maxim is accepting the role as “whore” AND SHE DOESN’T EVEN KNOW IT. That is why we need to stop pretending it is ok for her to do it — we need to tell her to stop allowing herself to be defined by the two f*cking choices women in our society are “allowed.” And I know what I am saying is correct because with all this bullsh!t being spewed today about women being able to “choose what they do with their bodies” all of their “choices” revolve around making themselves into some fantasy f*ckdoll for men. Sure, in a perfect world (one without the patriarchy) a woman should be able to pose in her underwear and be taken seriously. BUT THAT IS NOT THE REALITY. The sooner we women can accept that fact the sooner we can stop fighting among ourselves & unite to expand our choices beyond Madonna or whore.

  134. my idea of patriarachy is men who disrespect and limit women.

    my idea of feminist is women working together on demanding respect and expanding rights and horizions.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  135. Women always figure it out.

  136. Cinie, on February 1st, 2009 at 3:04 am Said:

    Read my post at 3:01.
    Second, I NEVER said it would be OK for the same thing to happen to Campoverdi.

    Please stop accusing me of saying things that I didn’t say — and you have been extrapolating things I have written to claim that I have said that Campoverdi is a whore — and I have not. I only said that was what society/the patriarchy would label her as.

  137. With all due respect, Angie, the Madonna/whore complex is bullspit and we should not define ourselves by it. Obviously Campoverdi is not defining herself as whore, you are.

  138. Cinie — if you think the beauty pageant pics didn’t play into the “flak” she got from her Couric interview about her being a bimbo you are naive.

  139. Cinie, on February 1st, 2009 at 3:15 am Said:

    With all due respect, Angie, the Madonna/whore complex is bullspit and we should not define ourselves by it. Obviously Campoverdi is not defining herself as whore, you are.

    No I did not — you are saying that I am saying she is a whore & I am sick of it. Do you not understand the difference of my pointing out how the patriarchy defines women (as either Madonna or whore) and my accepting those definitions as true? Really do you not understand that? WTF?

  140. a 20 year old woman who chooses to pose in Maxim is accepting the role as “whore” AND SHE DOESN’T EVEN KNOW IT.

    Angie hits nail on head.

  141. Cinie: I said 20 times that women should not define ourselves by the Madonna/whore roles & you come and say “we shouldn’t define ourselves by it” as IF YOU ARE THE ONE TO SAY IT?

  142. Angie, again so what? If Campoverdi were to be defined negatively, why shouldn’t women support her? Why buy into the narrative?

  143. Northwest Rain — thank you for actually reading & understanding what I wrote.

  144. Fine, you win. I’m out. Goodnight.

  145. Imo, and who the f**k cares about that because I’m apparently part of this patriarchy, there are a lot of choices and a lot of women who live somewhere in between the extremes of whore and Madonna. My wife is one of them, so is my sister, my mother, a bunch of proud and strong women I call friends. The patriarchy, yes. The government and the mass media at the top of the list. But I’m not buying the Madonna/Whore thing. And I know you will say, it’s not how women see themselves, but how the patriarchy chooses to see them. I disagree. The patriarchy is messed up, granted, but not all men see women is such a simplistic light.

  146. Northwest rain, on February 1st, 2009 at 3:02 am Said:
    Ah . . . the matriarchy / patriarchy
    I believe that the patriarchy is relatively recent — because it comes with a religious viewpoint.
    ************
    Way out of my field, but I disagree. I think the social framework that we define as the “patriarch” has been “hard-wired” in our DNA. Until recently, human existence across the planet was brutal and uncertain. The average female had eight pregnancies, maybe four that lived to their first year and two that made it to a reproductive age. Her life expectancy was ~25-30 years. The male lived to 30-35. Social structures that didn’t end up with a net positive in population growth, died out long ago.

  147. Cinie — I’m NOT buying into the narrative I am only pointing out what the danger of the narrative is. Do you think pretending that the narrative doesn’t exist in our society is helpful? That is the same thing as ignoring the problem & hoping it just goes away. Saying “no she isn’t” to the accusation of “whore” doesn’t change anything in society.
    Furthermore, “so what?” — you just accused me of calling her a whore when I did not — so frankly, I’m not discussing it anymore with you because I have a grave concern of your ability to understand me outside of your knee jerk reaction. Because, frankly despite your protests to the contrary, YOU are the one who is buying into the Madonna/whore narrative because you are the one who actually thought that I was calling her a whore — you would not have thought that if YOU didn’t buy it.

  148. wo that made it to a reproductive age
    *********
    That should be three.

  149. SHV — very interesting information there.

  150. Is a mod here?

  151. angienc2; love you.

  152. I don’t agree about Palin and Couric. I think Palin was much more hurt by the rigged perceived gaff on the newspaper question than she ever was by the beauty pageant thing. Frankly, I don’t think most of the country gave a sh*t about the pageant thing. If people think women should be condemned for participating in pageants, then I would guess there are more than a few posters on this blog who ought to be deeply shamed.

  153. {{{Puma-SF}}} Thanks! I needed that.

  154. Angie

    I largely agree with what you’re saying about the Madonna/whore thing, but it’s changing. There is alot of gray area. Maybe there was always a lot of gray area as defining women’s roles as Madonna/whore was probably a generalization anyway.

    One might make the argument that the gal posing in Maxim and then going to Harvard and expecting to be taken seriously is in fact breaking the limits of the Madonna/whore roles.

    I don’t know, I’m modest myself, so I find it hard to relate to why some people would pose in lingerie in a Men’s magazine!

  155. 3 Wickets — The country cared plenty about it — I know many people who bought into the “Palin is a bimbo” meme (“while Obama was editing the Harvard law review, Palin was in beauty pageants”)– if you don’t — lucky you. But it worked – 54% thought Obama (with hardly a resume) was “more experienced and better able to run the country” than Palin was (with much more experience under her belt) to be VP– the two jobs aren’t even the same! Further, it wasn’t ONE thing that did it, it was ALL of them together — the constant stories one after the other (beauty pageant, Couric interview, etc.).

  156. SHV writes: Way out of my field, but I disagree. I think the social framework that we define as the “patriarch” has been “hard-wired” in our DNA. Until recently, human existence across the planet was brutal and uncertain. The average female had eight pregnancies, maybe four that lived to their first year and two that made it to a reproductive age. Her life expectancy was ~25-30 years. The male lived to 30-35. Social structures that didn’t end up with a net positive in population growth, died out long ago.

    To which I respond — BULL SH*T.

    This behavior is NOT hard wired in our DNA — This is learned behavior.

    As far as I’m concerned using the behavioral DNA to excuse learned BAD behavior is a cop out.

    The life span was also short for males.

    And there is the argument that women did in fact have the knowledge pre patriarchy to control pregnancies — the women murdered by the patriarcy during the middle ages were the wise women — the herbalists, the mid wives etc. who had the knowledge about women’s bodies. Medical authority was taken from the wise women and put in the hands of the MALE priesthood.

    The patriarchy (the misogynistic part) involves LEARNED behavior.

    This behavior can be unlearned — the proof is that Hillary Clinton won the primary!

  157. I’ve got your back.

  158. firelight –maybe it is but I have my doubts. And, I still don’t think a 20 year old girl really has the ability to know what she is doing when she poses in Maxim — I actually do hope it doesn’t come back to bite her — and fact is, it hasn’t YET (we are the only ones talking about it at this point) — maybe it never will.

  159. SHV, I also don’t think the patriarchy is hard wired into our DNA. There are matriarchal societies that live even today, and certainly throughout the history of the modern era.

    Angie, what the media did to Palin (even more transparent than what they did to Hillary on a longer timeline) is something I will never forget or forgive.

  160. Don’t let him win.

  161. Puma-SF– don’t let who win? I got lost there.

  162. Angie

    Palin was so ridiculed for the beauty pagent stuff…especially it seemed at the Obot blogs I checked out (briefly!) at the time…and I totally agree that it payed in to the bimbo meme. Awful.

    By the way, I totally appreciate how strongly you support women’s equality and think you’re fabulous! 🙂

  163. Northwest Rain — I think SHV meant it is ingrained in our social consciousness, not that it was actually “in” our DNA. Yes, it is “learned behavior” but he is saying that we have been learning that behavior since we first formed societies, so it is difficult to change it. The matriarchal societies (and there were matriarchal societies too) didn’t survive for whatever reason. So all we know is the patriarchy.

  164. {{{firelight}}} thank you!!

  165. Puma-SF, I met my wife and we got married in SF. Storybook like. Must be the cold drizzle season there right about now.

  166. Three Wickets, on February 1st, 2009 at 3:42 am Said:

    SHV, I also don’t think the patriarchy is hard wired into our DNA. There are matriarchal societies that live even today, and certainly throughout the history of the modern era.
    ***********
    Examples? If in fact they did exist they are by a wide margin the exception. Until recently a woman’s role was defined by human biology.

    Feeding a totally helpless child/children, by necessity, restricted the woman’s options. The human infant is unusual because the brain is quite immature at birth. If the human brain had similar maturity as other primates, the head wouldn’t pass through the human females pelvis.

  167. Cinie, on February 1st, 2009 at 1:52 am Said

    Cinie, on February 1st, 2009 at 2:17 am Said:

    In the past election season I was sometimes frustrated that more women didn’t support Hillary or Sarah and that so many AAs supported BO. I am conflicted, theoretically, about voting for someone just based on their gender, but practically I will do it to get closer to ~51% representation.

    Representation in the Senate for AAs (1%) compared to their share of the population (~13%?) is worse than it is for women (~17% respresentaiton in Senate vs ~51% of the population). In some ways, I’m actually glad that women don’t pack together like men sometimes do. If women are more likely to vote for someone regardless of gender, in a way that’s good because that’s really where we want to be as a society….looking at each other as people first. Not sure though how to balance that with the present inequities.

  168. Angie — I agree that all we know now is the Patriarchy. And the winner writes the history — women have lost much of our early history.

    However, women are reclaiming history.

    For instance in Anthropology/Archaeology — many of the researchers are women. And it was women who recognized the role of women in early human development — women were the gatherers and women developed agriculture. And then there are the burials of women — male Archaeologists were giving the credit to high status males — for FEMALES found buried with high status objects. She must have been a daughter or wife of a high status male — when it is just as likely that the matriarch of the CLAN was buried with HER status objects.

    Hummm I guess academics do have a role and that what we need are more women as full professors? Psychology is still largely patriarchal with few female full professors. And yet this is a profession that should be 51% female.

  169. angienc2, on February 1st, 2009 at 3:47 am Said:

    Northwest Rain — I think SHV meant it is ingrained in our social consciousness, not that it was actually “in” our DNA. Yes, it is “learned behavior” but he is saying that we have been learning that behavior since we first formed societies, so it is difficult to change it. The matriarchal societies (and there were matriarchal societies too) didn’t survive for whatever reason. So all we know is the patriarchy
    **********
    Thanks..that is a better explanation. And just because evolutionary biology may have dictated a social structure doesn’t mean that we are bound to that today.

  170. Northwest Rain — oh, I agree totally with you, I just was clarifying what I thought SHV meant about it being “in our DNA” as being our social consciousness (and I was right — see his post @ 4:00 a.m.)

  171. SHV,

    I was actually born in a country that has historically been known as a matriarchal society. You wouldn’t know it today because the government is almost entirely run by men. But in its pre-modern history, regardless of who was king or queen of the land, its feudal society was run by women, with men helping out in the fields or recruited into the armed services of the time.

  172. SHV, on February 1st, 2009 at 4:00 am Said:

    I’m not sure its hardwired in our DNA as there are some animals with the same kind of biology that are not patriarchal…not sure about other primates…bonobos? I’m not sure a comparison of humans to other primates would neccessarily be meaningful since other similar species have very different social behaviors.

    Anyway, humans have show great flexibility in terms of gender roles in the last century. IMHO, they’re capable of more…given the opportunities of modern society especially.

  173. SHV — apparently you have problems with reading comprehension.

    Many of the native American Indian tribes were/are matriarchies/matriarchal.

    The US constitution is somewhat based on the Iroquois Nations own Constitution and the balance of power concept. The supreme judges were FEMALE.

    The Ancient Hawaiians also were either male/female of equal importance or tending toward the matriarchal. The Hawaiian goddesses were powerful — Pele — is one example. Men did the cooking — in fact Hawaiian women made fun of the European women and their inferior role to European males. I grew up in Hawaii among the Native Hawaiian and in fact there were many who still remembered the last Queen of Hawaii.

    Here’s another essay on the subject of Matriarchal Societies:

    http://www.neverinournames.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=1296

    The Genocide of Matriarchal Societies
    by: winter rabbit

  174. I’m going to bed.

    Good night firelight, Puma-SF, SHV & 3 Wickets & whoever else is here!

  175. Spammy ate my comment —

    HELP!

  176. Anyway, humans have show great flexibility in terms of gender roles in the last century. IMHO, they’re capable of more…given the opportunities of modern society especially.
    ***********
    I totally agree. And I think that there is a “economic/social/” independent
    definition for human rights for women, irrespective of their countries economic status.

  177. Good night all!

  178. Perhaps we need to revive the Goddess — or the part of the bible that was cribbed from early sources which mention both God and Goddess — the part that goes with “In the Beginning” — Genesis.

    The cultures that have a powerful Goddess as part of their mythology are often matriarchal cultures — or have a better attitude about strong women or women leaders.

  179. Not my area Northwest rain, but I do recall some debate about the gender voice and origin of the Judeo Christian God as depicted in the first five books. The scribes could very well have been women.

  180. Cinie, on February 1st, 2009 at 1:52 am Said:

    If I promote equality for women, am I a feminist, but if I promote equality for all races am I a r*cist? If my concerns are perceived as feminist, will they be addressed faster or slower than if they are perceived as the concerns of women? Sometimes semantics count, words can be used to marginalize groups and issues regardless of how they were intended to be applied.

    Personally I am tired of being defined as a feminist. Lots of people see me as a feminist.(as a single mother). My friends are considered feminists. (because they have jobs, and enjoy talking /having fun with other women, even if they also have husbands etc.)

    But in my heart of hearts, even tho I was deeply influenced by the 70s wave of feminism when I was young-I know that any real feminist would never define me as such. I cannot and have never been able to consider the world simply on feminist terms.
    I was raised by a single father, I am mother of a son.

    I agree with cinie-semantics count, and labels can divide and marginalise.

    As far as I’m concerned Feminism has got me nowhere over the past 40 years- and neither has the “pro-woman”Democratic Party.

  181. Bringing back The Goddess , in whatever shape or form or idea She may take , reunites the Divine Couple , the Jungian archetype of wholeness and completion , that the western patriarchal religions have separated . By denying divinity to women , ( no matter how catholics have used Mary for that function hence the Madona /Whore complex conflict ) the patriarchy has relegated women to the role of submissive, follower and worshipper . They have no Divinity that is a woman , and “god” is always defined as a male , woman can never have divinity , she is only ever lent it by her proximity to males as mother . In the christian churches , women are not perceived as even equal mates for god , but a ” holy spirit ” is the “mate ” ,not a woman of flesh and blood ( she is just the carrying case ) and women are robbed of their role model of sexuality and equality.
    Even later depictions of Goddess in history have separated their attributes . Venus / Aphrodite is the Goddess of Love , but her role is almost completely limited to lover .. even her child Eros is now a cartoon who shoots arrows of Love . but earlier in history the earlier Goddess encompassed much more complex roles with much less separation of the mother and lover roles

    Turan, an earlier and possible predecessor of Venus / Aphrodite; is an Etruscan Goddess who was a mother also lover and also family protector and nurturing figure. Among her many roles was that of creatrix of language .

    From Wiki
    Turan was the Etruscan goddess of love and vitality and patroness of the city of Velch. In art, she was usually depicted as a young winged girl [1]. Turan appears in toilette scenes of Etruscan bronze mirrors. She is richly robed and jeweled in early and late depictions, but consistently appears nude under the influence of Hellenistic art in the third and second centuries BCE.[2] She is consistently paired with her young lover Atunis (Adonis) and figures in the episode of the Judgement of Paris.

    She was commonly associated with egg-laying birds such as the dove, goose and above all the swan,[3] Tusna, “the swan of Turan”.[4] Her retinue were called Lasas. Turan may be quite ancient but does not appear on the Piacenza liver nor in Martianus list of Etruscan deities. The Etruscan month of July was named after her, although we only know the Latin word for it, Traneus. [5]

    She was seen as the equivalent to the Roman Venus and the Greek Aphrodite. Her name is derived from the Etruscan verb turan “to rule”.[citation needed]

    Turan had a sanctuary in the Greek-influenced Gravisca, the port for Tarquinia, where votive gifts inscribed with her name have been found. One inscription calls her Turan ati, “Mother Turan” which has been interpreted as connecting her to Venus Genetrix, Venus the mother of Aeneas and progenitor of the Julio-Claudian lineage.

  182. At the core of Feminism is self-definition. It simply would have helped if we had heard Mr. Obama self-define as a Feminist, before Ms. Magazine made him into a Super-Fem.

    I explore that in my blog of today:

    http://syd4.blogspot.com/2009/02/boston-boomer-asks-what-is-feminism.html

  183. http://govpalin4prez.blogspot.com/2009/01/video-gov-palins-arrival-at-alfalfa.html

    the above is a link to Gov. Sarah Palin attending the exclusive Alalfa club dinner last night

    blacks were not allowed until 1970, women werent allowed until 1994 after Bill boycotted it and then Hillary attended with him in that year.

    The goal should be to press onward, just like Gov. Sarah Palin is willing to do, women of action, moving onward……..she looked stunning.

    I read a few of the roast like comments that obama made and i just cant humor in a dang thing he says.
    He said if General Lee were in attendance tonight, he
    would be confused. Well, I have news for you Mr. Obama, there are a lot of us that are still confused.

  184. Talking about goddesses-Boadicea is a very famous Celtic Queen who led a 2 year revolt against the Romans in Britain.
    The Celts were a matriarchal society, differing in this from the patriarchy of the Romans (although upper crust Roman women could both inherit and keep property.)

    It might be of interest to note that according to the Roman chroniclers, women fighting side by side with their men was not at all uncommon in the Britain of that time. But Boadicea not merely fought alongside the men, she led them into battle … an army of 120,000!

    from http://fanzone50.com/Tales/Boadicea1.html

  185. Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (Engrossed as Agreed to or Passed by House)

    ——————————————————————————–

    SEC. 1112. ADDITIONAL ASSURANCE OF APPROPRIATE USE OF FUNDS.

    None of the funds provided by this Act may be made available to the State of Illinois, or any agency of the State, unless: (1) the use of such funds by the State is approved in legislation enacted by the State after the date of the enactment of this Act; or (2) Rod R. Blagojevich no longer holds the office of Governor of the State of Illinois. The preceding sentence shall not apply to any funds provided directly to a unit of local government: (1) by a Federal department or agency; or (2) by an established formula from the State.
    http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/F?c111:1:./temp/~c111su9qk4:e16165:
    this is the reason that they wanted blogo out of the way
    Illinois wasn’t going to get anything unless the got rid of blago
    this is the houses version of the
    H.R. 1: House Stimulus Package
    source the libary of congress

  186. just think of the if we could find out who sliped this into the bill & if it where tied back to berry . think of the story it would make if it got out onto the news media

  187. SOD @ 12:55AM: “I’m beginning to think the patriarchy came up with the word feminism to keep us preoccupied and in conflict with each other. Not to mention the derogatory use of it by many.”

    Tinfoil update: Gloria Steinum used to date someone really high up in the CIA. Perhaps that’s the root of it all.

  188. Boadicea, who rose up against the Romans following her own public flogging and the rape of her two daughters. was
    strengthened by her devotion to the Goddess Adraste, to whom she offered sacrifices of hares before battle.

    Andraste is a warrior goddess, the goddess of victory, of ravens and of battles, similar in many ways to the Irish war goddess Morrigan. Her name is thought to mean “the invincible one” or “she who has not fallen”. It is told that her presence was evoked on the eve of battle to curry favor. As a Goddess of divination, she was probably called upon to divine the outcome of battles and war.

    She was was venerated in woodland groves throughout Southern Britain and there is told of a sacred grove dedicated to Andraste somewhere in Epping Forest. Her symbol is the hare.

    As Andred, her romanised name is Andraste, she was a lunar mother-goddess figure associated with fertility and love. In her dark aspect however, she was associated principally with warfare and specifically with victory. She is sometimes compared to the goddess Andarte, a deity worshipped by the Vocontii of Gaul.

    For pagan goddesses:
    http://tinyurl.com/csxrs5

    For a pic of the statue of Boadicea placed near the British Houses of Parliament in 1902 by the London County Council:

    http://travesti.geophys.mcgill.ca/~olivia/BOUDICA/

  189. BB-LOL

  190. very curious -boogie

  191. just think if we could find out who sliped this into the bill & the dammage i would cause to berry if we could tie it back to him

  192. its looks like to me that powers to be sent a message to the Illoins currupt government & said get rid od blago or eles

  193. Goddesses provide an incredible array of role models for women with depth and complexity and above all divinity …. divinity gives power not derived from males .
    The Great Whore of the bible was not a whore after all … but the Goddess .. and her worship flew in the face of the patriarchy , therefore she was reviled. This is the source of the modern madonna / whore conflict and “complex” It was a power struggle then and it is now …….

  194. Report: Daschle Received $220G From Health Care Groups With Vested Interest
    Sen. Tom Daschle, President Obama’s nominee to head the Department of Health and Human Services, reportedly received $220,000 in speaking fees from health care groups with a vested interest in the work he would do once confirmed as health chief.
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Isnt this Pay for Play?

  195. One more thing I have been thinking about….
    Didnt Obama sound an awfully lot like Rev. Wright when he did his interview for the Arab networks to you?
    Well, he did to me, he always points out what we have done wrong, never what we have done right

  196. I consider my self a feminist and do think I’ve benefited from feminism. That like many concepts it is debatable and evolving is to it’s credit. It’s a living concept.

    I recognize that these discussions have been painful and divisive at times. For me they have also been enlightening.

    My experience of this blog is that it advocates for equal rights for all. (All except people designated as tr0lls that is.) None of the discussions lead me to believe otherwise.

  197. Boadicea became very popular in Victorian times-probably because of the gender tie between the two queens. Statues were put up, poems written, history rewritten.

    Political power is the key to the rewriting of history.

    Monotheism did women no favors.

  198. purplefinn-yes there have been social benefits from feminism-but politically they have been minimal. (Equal pay and UHC are mirages in the US. )

    Meanwhile establishment Feminists are travelling around the world to expenses paid conferences on Women’s Rights, making royalties on books, supporting any choice the DNC should make.

  199. The true origins of groundhog day is an ancient holiday celebrating a Goddess
    http://www.chalicecentre.net/imbolc.htm

    EASTER is named after the GODDESS EOSTRE

    and while people are dying in Kentucky of the cold the bo has the heat turned up in the white house so he can work in shirtsleeves what a guy , but hey Kentucky didnt vote for HIM

  200. Good morning everyone…

    Boomer at 8:05am — HA! I knew it 😉

  201. Laurie, I’m all for progress on women’s rights. I’m not going to throw “establishment” feminists under the bus. I am disappointed in Obama worship and enabling by “establishment” feminists and others.

    That we need to move on with new leadership – I’m with you. I prefer to think of it as standing on the shoulders of those who came before us.

  202. Good Morning!

    I am a feminist
    I am a Republican
    I am African American

    Thank you SOD for this timely post

  203. swanspirit, I love Groundhog Day. Thanks for the link.

    Do you have the link to “never lead by example” Obama in shirt sleeves?

  204. afrocity, Good morning!

    Um, my guess is that you never follow the easy or obvious path. Whew! – and a wicked sense of humor to boot!

  205. You’re most welcome afrocity…you are the perfect illustration of why we have more in common than not.

  206. Anything for women is turned into a Sword of Damcles

  207. swanspirit, Thanks. Per the article, is nothing not laudatory about Obama? I dunno, being a welcome relief from W, how hard can it be?

    SOD, You’re leading the way forward. Thank you.

  208. There are 1.5 million people in the mid-west without power during a cold snap in the Midwest. FEMA has failed us. It has been a week after the storm ended and still no FEMA.

  209. Thanks swanspirit. I am here to bring balance to the force 😀

  210. New post up!!!

  211. Angie, about your madonna/whore roles. You are so right. HIstoricaaly women have only had great financial success in the so-called “display” professions: acting, singing, modeling. That ethos has suffused the culture to the point where virtuallly all professions are now “display professions” when applied to women. In plain English, women are expected to meet Hollywood definitions of beauty. It is no secret that most employers prefer to hire the most attractive women for the most visible positions. I have a friend who is a 46 yr old single mother of three who works as a receptionist. She took money our of her house to have a facelift, knowing that she would have diffuculty keeping a job in a good firm as she got older. In a sense, law is a display profession too, althoug in fairness I must say that applies to men as well, The more expensive the suit, the better the hairctut, the more likelihood of being taken serously.

    I sat in the back of court once waiting for my case to be called on a boring day and watched. Whenever a woman entered the courtroom, most of the men’s eyes instinctively went to her legs. BTW I think we are one of the few countires where lawyers do not wear robes in the courtroom. So much for equal justiice in America. Whomever has the better looking suit, shoes, and briefcase has the advantage.

  212. Christy Hefner is on CBS right now – calling herself a
    feminist. How about that definition? I’m running back
    to see it – if I don’t throw up first.

  213. New post up!! Continuing the discussion, especially Back Bay Style’s comment…

  214. Back Bay Style, good points. I think getting a face lift is a greater price to pay than maintaining a wardrobe and attache – of course, women have to do that too.

  215. Re women’s subjugation – easy answer.

    Follow the money. And it’s close relative – power.

    If power belongs only to some, if you need an underclass
    in order to keep it, who better to maintain that position than
    women.
    Part of the problem is we don’t fight back – not really,
    not persistantly, and not with strength.

    Where are the marches, the TV appearances, the
    powerful groups, the PR? Instead we talk and argue among
    ourselves. I do believe that part of it is biological – no
    testosterone, less physical strength.

    But at one time we did have matriarchal societies,
    in which the Goddess was supreme. Women are the
    supreme lifegiving force. And women were the leaders,
    the rulers. The societies were more humane, life-giving,
    which makes sense. Women who give birth (or even
    produce the egg every month, the source of life) are not
    as likely to destroy it so lightly.
    Although, there are goddesses of destruction, like the
    Hindu Kali. But their role is more karmic, which is
    based on justice. Kali is one of the most powerful.
    Hinduism still has those goddesses, which are a remnant
    of those early matriarchal societies.

    Riane Eisler has written some great books about the
    goddess and these early societies, and how they were
    destroyed. Christianity evolved from these but was
    turned into a true patriarchy. In order they had to come
    up with that madonna- wore dichotomy.
    Power, money, anyone?

  216. Northwest rain @3:59 said

    “And then there are the burials of women — male Archaeologists were giving the credit to high status males — for FEMALES found buried with high status objects. She must have been a daughter or wife of a high status male — when it is just as likely that the matriarch of the CLAN was buried with HER status objects.”

    ————

    Awesome observation! Right on!

  217. A couple disparate things–

    If you look at the “qualifications’ for falling on one side or other of the Madonna/whore dichotomy, Palin SHOULD have landed firmly on the Madonna side–good mother, faithful wife, a contributor to the family economy, one whose “candle goeth not out by night” to borrow from the description of the virtuous woman in Proverbs. It was the blogger boyz who characterized her as the whore, aided and abetted by the media, including women in the media. It would be interesting to examine exactly why that happened, but I suspect that the psychological underpinning is that the “whore” label gave permission for abuse such as the rape fantasy posted on Huff, the hanging in effigy, the “tackle” video.

    Laurie, the Celts weren’t matriarchal. They were egalitarian. All roles in society were open to both women and men–ruler, warrior, priest(ess), judge, craftsperson, farmer, slave. A case can be made that this was the default position for the Indo-European peoples as they spread out of their south-central Asian homeland. Contrary to Gimbutas and Eisler, we’re learning that these “Kurgan” peoples included women warriors, and that I-E women’s burials from western China to Ireland show that women held other high-status positions in these societies. If you look at the spread of Celtic culture from Halstadt to Ireland and at the early Indo-European peoples in Western China, you find remarkable similarities, including the weaving of tartan cloth. They also left the name of their Goddess all over the European landscape–the River Don in Russia, the Danube in Austria, the Danaan peoples mentioned by Homer, the Dordogne in France, the Tuatha de Dana of Irish myth/prehistory. Patriarchy was a late development among these peoples, and had to do with their contact with/conquest by patriarchal societies, especially the Romans and the later Roman institution of the Church.

    P

  218. Sorry Okasha-I read in the source I cited that the Celts were matriarchal, but I will admit that they did use to seem more egalitarian to me.

    Boadicea led the revolt only after her husband’s death and her daughters rape. But when she started other tribes followed, and she did in fact lead the army.

    What I mean is, that she didn’t just sit at home being a wire-puller, she led the charges.

    I love the whole Indo-European story. Did you know that the Kurds are Indo-Europeans, and that their language is an island of Indo-European in an Arabic world?

    Chinese tartan 😉

  219. okasha,
    Weren’t the Romans also descended from earlier
    matriarchal societies. If I remember correctly (When
    God Was a Woman, Eisler, et al), there was no concept of
    a male god when you go back far enough. (Early statues
    of goddess in childbirth – which is all women). I think I’ve
    read that Stonehenge was related to goddess.

    It seems to have been a systematic, deliberate effort
    to undermine the power of the feminine (and all it
    represents) that occurred.

    Like today. None of these things is by accident, ie.
    depictions of Hillary and Palin, pictures. And they just
    chose the most logical archetype – Palin as whore,
    Hil as witch or crone. They knew what they were doing
    every step of the way. And it worked.

    The DaVinci Code was based on an earlier non-fiction
    well-researched book (can’t remember the name now,
    can’t find it on my shelves, but I’ll keep looking), which
    postulates that the true Jesus (Jeshua), was more a
    student of Mary Magalene, and other women, who were
    involved with various esoteric practices, similar to Tantra,
    involving magic, sexual practices, etc. Women were the
    transmitters, the initiators. And the Holy Grail that men
    were searching for was the female power – the cup or
    vagina. And what it represents.
    The later interpretors perverted all these teachings,
    and in order to do this, had to strip all attributions of power
    to women. Hence, the madonna-whore concept.
    Totally discredits, strips of their innate biological
    advantage.

  220. I’m very late to the party here, but I just want to add my 2 cents.

    SOD: I LOVE this post. I didn’t even bother getting into the semantic wrangling over who is or isn’t a feminist, for the reasons you just stated above. Equality–in all things. We drain our energy and effectiveness with infighting and hierarchical judgments. If you’re fighting for the 51% solution–hurrah. If not, step aside, because we mad as hell, and we’re not going to take it anymore!

  221. We need to stop trying to label or de-label each other based on some unsolved mystery we call the definition of feminism.

    EXACTLY!

    We need to stop this!

    We have to work towards a common goal – 51% representation in government.

    This is a topic we should be addressing more without the BS about who has more feminist cred.

    I’m a woman who doesn’t like being treated like shit.

    FIF: I’m late too!

  222. What I was about to add when the browser went wonky on me was that the Celts are also the only early European society in which pornography was unknown. There was plenty of bawdiness, but no objectification of either gender. It might not be possible to prove absolutely that this circumstance was an outgrowth of social equality between men and women, but it is certainly strongly suggested.

    Laurie, Boudicca was one of a number of ruling Celtic women who led armies. She seems singular only because she was an oddity to the Romans who first recorded her story. Onduava, the wife of the Gaulish chieftain Vercingetorix is also said to have led a contingent of Celtic women against the Romans, and Cartimandua was a major player in Empire politics. One of Boudicca’s attractions of the Victorians, I suspect, was not just that she was a courageous queen, but that she and Victoria shared the same name. (Budic=Victor; Boudicca=Victoria)

    For the “Chinese” tartan, see Elizabeth Wayland Barber’s The Mummiesof Urumchi. It shows a number of early I-E fabrics from the Tarim Basin, including a reconstruction of a 6-color, 3000-year-old tartan that could have been woven in Scotland today. See also Mallory and Mair’s The Tarim Mummies.

  223. Thx Okasha-there was a big Celtic museum show over here -and I missed it grrrrr!!!

    I shall definitely read up a bit more about them.

    I love tartan 🙂

  224. Yup, wrangle over a media-constructed name instead of just being what you are – women. That puts us all in the same boat for equal rights with men.

    WOMEN’S MOVEMENT FOR EQUALITY!

    Do males split themselves off from each other as masculanists? Hell no.

    Republican women’s political groups OWN their name and lable their movement/agenda as women for [whatever].

  225. twandx, on February 1st, 2009 at 2:27 pm

    “WOMEN’S MOVEMENT FOR EQUALITY!”

    Love this and the other thoughts you expressed.

  226. Okasha-I just looked up wiki-it seems that women could be elected to any position, including religious -Druids, or commander in chief of the army.

  227. Several scholars have suggested that Boudicca was a Druid as well as a queen.

  228. My two cents- Women don’t put women down because they disagree with their choices. I refuse to base my decisions in my life based on what a males reaction will be.

    The irony is that the girl in the maxim pic is dressed no better or no worse then women in bathing suits. What next? Women shouldn’t be allowed to don swimsuits because some guy may pull his pud to the pics? Do I go get my burkha now because some guy finds me wearing a skirt distracting?

    Furthermore the idea that these pics are causal for rape or assault misses the point of what rape and assault are REALLY about. They are about CONTROL and POWER. I wouldn’t say some girl caused her own rape because she wore a dress and I won’t say that a pic of a woman in underwear is going to cause rape or assault.

    That’s my two cents on the subject.

  229. CWaltz we should discuss thi

  230. CWaltz, The biggest problem that I have with soft porn is that it’s become ubiquitous. And, as I’ve mentioned several times, as far as I’m concerned the outfit the woman was wearing is the American version of the burqa.

    I was once asked to stop wearing “short” (mid thigh length) skirts. When I complained that another co-worker wore even shorter skirts, I was told “Yeah, but she doesn’t look good in them.” And this was a directive from my (closeted) gay boss, the ONLY man in the office! I would love to be able to explain that.

  231. SoD, love the post. After the last few days I am so tired of being yelled at to “TAKE FEMINISM 101.” It took every ounce of self control not to shout back “TAKE COMMON SENSE 101.” Which of course would have been completely unproductive even though it might have felt good. But you’re right, we need to stick together and keep our focus on the important issues. Arguing over who is and who isn’t a feminist is a waste of good energy.

    In truth, I can relate to much of the anger coming from the shame police. I was there once. But with age that anger has turned to a warm simmer of cynicism— and a genuine affection for anyone willing to stand up for woman’s rights, whether they are conservative, moderate, radical… and even if they’re short one X chromosome.

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