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Paul Krugman: Conscience of a Liberal
The Confluence
Suburban Guerrilla Ian Welsh
Do I make you hot?
Here’s you chance to tell the world what would really float your boat.
We’re probably gonna offend a few people anyway, but let’s not push the envelope too far. Here are the rules:
1. Naughty, not nasty
2. Don’t say anything you’ll regret.
3. Don’t get us sued
As an advisory, the last time I told my favorite fantasy this is what happened:
BTW – I bet nobody flames me for “objectifying” or “slut shaming” George Costanza.
Filed under: General |
Corrente (Lambert) Avedon’s Sideshow
The Confluence 
First!
Hee Hee — that was a funny episode — I liked the pictures of the “bear” photo shop guy too.
Being first in your own thread doesn’t count, myiq.
Aaaack! My eyes!
Is this a thread only for sex or can I repost my Steelers question? As usual I put it up after everybody had gone.
Jadzia — this is OT & there is nobody here but us chickens — post whatever you want.
oh, and I live my fantasies, I don’t talk about them. 😉
Hi Ang…Email me if you want anything changed:
If I confess that none of my fantasies involve a Clinton, can I stay?
That’s great SOD! I’m already doing my research!!
Cinie — LOL!!!
Well here is an interesting article..(well what can I say, I was a science major)
“Single, Angry, Straight Male… Seeks Same?
A classic study reveals that young homophobic men have secret gay urges”
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=single-angry-straight-male
***************
Another classic study involving homophobes, gay p0rn and penile plethysmography ( a peter meter)
OK, here’s a modified (i.e., placed into question form) version of my previous comment: Do you-all think the Steelers fandom is part of a new haka? Until I saw the “Steelers owner gaga for b0″ article today, I could NOT figure out why so many of my Obotty facebook friends, none of whom had previously expressed any interest in football (and none of whom are from Pittsburgh), were all suddenly changing their statuses to “Go Steelers!” Ugh.
About 2/3 of my fantasies involve Clintons. The rest involve wizards.
My fantasy is being 20 again.
SHV — however much money that study cost, it was a waste. I could have told them that — but I’m just like Cassandra — doomed to speak the truth & have no one listen.
“Single, Angry, Straight Male… Seeks Same?
A classic study reveals that young homophobic men have secret gay urges”
What’s the point?
Jadzia — well, between the Steelers (an old school “*real* rough & tumble football team) & the Arizona Cardinals for crying out loud — I think the choice is kind of obvious without any tinfoil necessary! LOL
for heaven’s sake…I’m in moderation — what did I say?
I have to share this:
They are gonna be very unhappy with my next post
SOD — nope — sex is ok here. but for some reason n@mes is not. I think wordpress is having a nervous breakdown.
SOD, the sink? I don’t care if you’re 18 and doing it with Mr. Clean, that’s gotta hurt.
Well, that may be true (I know nothing, nothing, nothing about football, so I am happy to take your word for it — and yeah, the “Steelers” does sound like a tougher team than the “Cardinals” — tweet tweet!). However, all these folks are out on the West Coast, and a disturbing number of them have adopted those ridiculous “John H*ss*in Doe” Facebook monikers.
I clearly need a better class of friends.
Cinie — when you’re 18 (I got married at that age) your butt actually fits nicely!
SOD, I got married at 18, too, but my butt hasn’t fit in the sink since I got out of diapers.
I hate to tell RD but I’m rooting for the AZ Cards because:
1. Obama is rooting for the Stillers
2. I prefer teams from the west (except the Niners, Chargers Broncos and Cowboys)
3. The “Immaculate Reception”
Jadzia — LMAO!
I clearly need a better class of friends.
SOD:
My next post is about feminism and the patriarchy. It’s titled “Feminist Hypocrisy”
I was just trying to figure out the best time to post it to achieve maximum apoplexy.
myiq — Obama isn’t “rooting” for the Steelers because he doesn’t even like football — I can tell from looking @ his scrawny butt. He just wants to pretend this is the GE all over again — McCain is obviously AZ but for Obama to try to pretend he is PA is beyond stupid — only an Obot would buy it.
myiq — well, you have to make sure to listen to the View From Under the Bus this Wednesday we are doing a special on Sex, Feminism & the Patriarchy.
Oooh, here’s another one:
Oooh, angie, good catch. I hadn’t even thought about the Arizona/McCain connection. And now I am wishing that Alaska had a football team.
*sighs* Is antagonizing feminists really what we’re all about? Maybe we could take the high road here…
Angie, Obie kicked off his campaign with a Monday Night Football Bears opening.
Hmmmmm….Maybe sinks are higher today…I am 6’3″ and it doesn’t seem like the perfect height.
Seriously — I agree with that — I thought we all here were feminists.
SHV, I don’t care how tall the sink is, I’m trying to figure out how you do it with your butt in the sink. What do you do with the faucet? My mind is duly boggled.
Maybe we could take the high road here.
That’s not how I roll.
But I won’t be making the same kinds of disparaging remarks and insults to them that they have been making about me.
😉
Cinie — I saw that ridiculous “cute” Obama ad — yeah, he pretends to like football because that is the “manly” think to like, but just like he didn’t want a “girly” dog (and btw — wtf is up with the dog? This is the guy with his finger on the red button & he can’t decide on a dog for his little girls in 6 months?). He’s a fake through & through.
Cinie, on January 31st, 2009 at 12:35 am Said:
SHV, I don’t care how tall the sink is, I’m trying to figure out how you do it with your butt in the sink. What do you do with the faucet? My mind is duly boggled.
************
The GF has a five hour exam in the AM, otherwise I would wake her up to give it a go. She is pretty athletic…but you are right, it looks as if the plumbing fixtures would tear you up.
SHV, plus, it would be cold.
I was just checking in at Violet’s place – I dropped out of the pie fight a couple days ago because the discussion was all about me and I have nothing to prove – but I see now I might as well have stayed.
It’s up to almost 200 comments and it’s still all about me.
he can’t decide on a dog for his little girls in 6 months?
Why didn’t he let his daughters pick the dog themselves?
My daughter would have never let me pick a pet for her. Her pet – her choice.
It’s her world and I only live in it.
Of course he gets to pick the damn dog. He’s king of his castle.
None of my fantasies involve dangerous or uncomfortable places.
The risk of getting caught adds spice, the risk of getting killed is a turn-off.
myiq–look at this from their perspective. You basically went into their space, they made some really good points and you kinda blew them off. You can’t expect, as a man, to tell feminist women in their space they’re just blagh blagh blaghing and expect to get welcomed with open arms. You don’t think that they could look on that as trolling at all?
myiq, your daughter’s dog wasn’t a publicity stunt.
myiq–look at this from their perspective. You basically went into their space, they made some really good points and you kinda blew them off. You can’t expect, as a man, to tell feminist women in their space they’re just blagh blagh blaghing and expect to get welcomed with open arms. You don’t think that they could look on that as tro lling at all? You were mad, and maybe you didn’t approach them in the best way to be well-received?
myiq2xu, on January 31st, 2009 at 12:45 am Said:
….It’s up to almost 200 comments and it’s still all about me.
It sounds like Violent Sox is obsessed with you myiq…perhaps you could imagine a fantasy scenario appropriate to this (your suggested) thread!
Myiq,
I just got back from ice cream and you have that pic of George Constanza up. Too bad it does not have Michael Steele’s face on it.
Obama does not want a dog. I wish he would just come out and say it.
Seriously:
They came here. They went to TGW and Reclusive Leftist where I have been a regular for a long time.
I don’t have a problem with what Violet said either, and her post was a reaction to my post here.
These people have been insulting me AND the people here.
Worst of all, they’re hypocrites.
Think about this – they teamed up with misogynist PUMA haters from Blogstalkers to bash me, Egalia and anyone who took my side.
Nicole — it is Violet not Violent. And it isn’t here that is keeping the “bashing” up — it is the posters on the thread.
It sounds like Violent Sox is obsessed with you myiq
Violet Socks is not obsessed with me nor has she been insulting anyone.
Why didn’t he let his daughters pick the dog themselves?
My daughter would have never let me pick a pet for her. Her pet – her choice.
It’s her world and I only live in it.
Great point!! And it supports the observation that 0 is a controlling s o b . . . .
I’ve heard the neatest stories about kids choosing wonderful dogs. I’m one who has the knack of picking dogs with great personalities. I just know —
Let the girls/brats choose because the dog is supposed to be THEIR dog.
And then from below — buying furniture from the Pottery barn???? WTF? Dumb, dumber and dumbest — that’s the 0.
Afrocity yes that is one — sexy sexy new chair of the GOP!! He is everything that 0 pretends to be.
myiq, I probably don’t understand quite all of the nuances involved in the various blogposts.
But I’m fine with inducing apoplexy in any who use charged descriptions rather than verbatim examples to explain their unfavorable opinion about someone.
And I suspect you’ve had a distorted view of your own importance long before the Confluence! /snark, need I say?
Spammy ate my comment —
I didn’t even write r@cist — I did mention s e x y .
they made some really good points and you kinda blew them off.
What were the really good points I blew off?
The ones that were premised on a faulty assumption of my intentions and beliefs?
angienc2, on January 31st, 2009 at 1:00 am Said:
Nicole — it is Violet not Violent. And it isn’t here that is keeping the “bashing” up — it is the posters on the thread.
Hi…yes, I do know her proper moniker…I just thought, given the situation (bashing) that “Violent” was more appropriate. I do understand that the bashing is going on at her site.
Afrocity, Of course Obama is never going to come out and say anything flat out.
Or if he does, he’ll come out a few days later with a WORM.
I dn’t know what’s going on elsewhere, but the people posting at Reclusive Leftist are regulars there. They’re feminists. And they’re not bashing you so much as you’re both having a snarky back and forth. Violet Socks isn’t going to like it if a blogwar is started here.
Not to open the whole can of worms again but I have to get this off my chest — when those posters swarmed on your & TGW’s original posts they consistently described Camporvedi as a “lingerie model” until it was pointed out to them that this was Maxim magazine, no lingerie was being sold. It bothers me because it was so obvious that they didn’t know what they were talking about & while they may believe they are feminists, they aren’t very well informed because what feminist doesn’t know what Maxim magazine is. It hurt their credibility imo. Further, their arguments are so circular & stupid — notice how Violet Sox laid out a concise clear argument of what she found wrong with the implications of myiq’s post without name calling? Yeah, those posters didn’t do that — they swarmed in, accused myiq of calling the Campoverdi a”sl*t” and myiq of “sl*t shaming” her and nothing else. Furthermore, I understand this b.s. “Ifeminism” thinks they are reclaiming the word “sl*t” but that is utter b.s. — all they are doing is perpetuating the label the patriarchy has given them. The whole thing makes my head hurt.
Well, the fact that Obots attacked Palin for being a beauty queen was a good point.
Nicole — oh, sorry — it was a joke — I actually was a little offended by it because I thought you were implying myiq should be violent against her Sorry for any misunderstanding.
the people posting at Reclusive Leftist are regulars there. They’re feminists. And they’re not bashing you so much as you’re both having a snarky back and forth.
Not all of them are regulars at RL, but I am, and I’m also a feminist. Like I said, I dropped out of the discussion two days ago but they kept bashing me, even after Violet told them to stop.
Jeez! Where are the sex fantasies? Back to lurking……..
joaniebone, I’m still hung up on the sink thing.
joanie!!! LOL!!! Why don’t you start?
I have a fantasy that I’ll actually spend a night having sex instead of having a date with my key board.
Lord, I love you all, but……..
and another fantasy: elderj in person!
Well, the fact that Obots attacked Palin for being a beauty queen was a good point.
Sarah Palin participated in beauty pageant 20 some years ago. It’s not the same thing.
I helped a friend put on a small “Junior Miss” pageant. Most of the people attending were parents and relatives of the participants.
While beauty pageants are sexist and anachronistic, they are not intended to provide sexual gratification to men.
One last thing — the other inconsistency about the arguments of *some* of the posters there are that they are pretending that Campoverdi, a privileged upper middle class woman doesn’t think that the pictures are “feminist” (because if she thought that, then she would be wrong, and worthy, I guess, of mocking) despite the fact that the article that was on gawker was titled “Obama Hottie. Feminist Parodox” and it is quite obvious that a woman of her age & class would only pose for those pictures if she bought inot the whole b.s. I-Feminist theory that such photos “empower” the woman when really it is (as Violet Sox stated) the same old patriarchy wrapped in a new pink bow.
I like the idea of sex under a sunny sky, near warm water, working around my tiny swimwear while my mate is stark naked. I like the idea of thinking no one is looking when in fact they might be.
I’m a shy exhibitionist.
There Angie!
Also — 20 years ago is 20 years ago; It was only 50 years ago that the only occupations available to women were librarian, teacher, nurse or prostitute (and those were only for the ones who couldn’t “land a husband”)– and unlike Campoverdi whom we know for a fact didn’t need the money, Palin did. The argument is a red herring.
joaniebone!! LOL — a shy exhibitionist — what — you’ve never done it on the beach? tsk, tsk. I’ve got you beat.
Sigh. No one’s playing.
To bed now. Alone.
😦
Night joanie!!!
Girl, done it on the beach, but not in daylight.
“Sarah Palin participated in beauty pageant 20 some years ago. It’s not the same thing.”
Why not though? If this woman runs for office in 20 years, she’ll still be referred to as the bimbo who posed in Maxim. And I don’t see why they have tehhe swimsuit or evening gown or any beauty aspect of it if it has nothing to do with objectification.
I probably should have done this on a Saturday night.
I’ve done it during the day –but it was an isolated beach that we basically had to ourselves — it could have changed. Also went out really, really deep in the water @ a crowded beach & did it in the water (if that counts for “at the beach).
I’m telling you — I had a very “exciting” youth with my first husband (a great guy, we just married too young –honestly, he should have just been my first serious boyfriend).
Outside is not a turn-on for me. Audiences are.
One day at work, a few years ago, where I worked with all younger people, mostly men – and we had a tight working group – the question came up: What is the most outrageous place you have done it?
But, that is reality. You are talking about fantasy, what we imagine.
I do not like gory details spelled out for me, in movies, in pictures or in books. I would prefer to imagine things and discover things for myself.
I did used to want to pretend, with my SO, in a bar (well, he was a musician), that we did not know each other, that we just met. But he wouldn’t do it.
Cinie — LOL!! I was young & we tried all kinds of stupid things — but audience is not a turn on for me in general — performance anxiety! LOL
The “weirdest” place was the 50 yard line on a football field (it was at night & it was his fantasy, not mine). 🙂
nite sexy soul sister angie.
myiq, it helps if you kick it off with a good one of your own!
personally, I had to keep it fairly clean so as not to embarass katiebird. Who wants to hear about a sib’s fantasies? (Sorry Katie!)
Fran — so, what was your most outrageous place?
Weirdest place? Hotel broom closet. Don’t ask.
Damn, you guys should have sent me a text when this thread opened!
Woooohooooo!
Good night joanie!
Wait, JB – I’ll play!
Cinie! LMAO — you’re at a hotel & you literally just couldn’t get a room, huh? LOL!!!
Damn, my timing stinks.
I purposely did not say. It popped out of me and kind of stopped the conversation. You have to know that I look rather prim and proper.
This forum is a little too big for me.
Angie, didn’t try. Got a thing about closets. And public. Toldja not to ask.
Fantasy: in my office, on the desk, during the day with everyone working away outside (door locked, obviously).
Most outrageous place: back when I was an aircraft mechanic in the Air Force – out on the flight line one night on the back ramp of one of the planes.
Speaking of “strangest places” has anyone ever seen the old Newlywed Game episode were the question was “where is the strangest place you’ve made whoopie” and the poor wife (obviously confused & a little embarrassed) said: “In the butt?”
If this woman runs for office in 20 years, she’ll still be referred to as the bimbo who posed in Maxim.
So what’s the solution?
Do we give approval to that kind of soft-core porn and say there is nothing wrong with it?
If we disapprove of that kind of stuff how do we treat the people who voluntarily engage in it?
Nobody I’ve seen yet wants to pick one side and take to a conclusion.
If we’re going to approve of it, then fine, it shouldn’t matter what anyone did. But if we’re not going to approve of it, shouldn’t we express some disapproval with the people involved?
I’m not talking about “Scarlet Letter” stuff here, with somebody marked for life. But there are lots of things people do when they are young that affects them later in life.
I do not and will not accept the idea that women should bear no responsibility for the choices they make because it’s all the fault of “The Patriarchy.”
myiq, it helps if you kick it off with a good one of your own!
I told you what happened the last time I did that.
National Guard armory, strip club bathroom, porn palace stroke booth. I’ve lived an interesting life.
Never saw that episode, angie, but would have busted a gut if I’d seen that remark.
I just read back over the whole thread – a bit serious, these comments, considering the title.
Parked across the street from the Sheriff’s department/county jail
With the headlights on
How about some of the sweetest, or cute things we’ve been told? One BF (for 30 years) and I were meeting at a very nice hotel in town. He actually thought people might think I was a call girl meeting him. NO ONE there was going to think I was a call girl. (Too old, for one thing.) That is the nice thing about someone who has known you since you were young – they still see that person.
“Stroke booth” – anything like a glory hole?
Nope, Scrubs. Plexiglass palace. Me and a boyfriend and lots of quarters.
Fran — it is getting too long for my browser too.
Cinie — LOL — girl, thing for closets — you know, now that you mention it a closet is probably the only place I haven’t done it (although the size of a bathroom on a plane is smaller than a closet — and btw, it was no fun — only done to get it “checked” off of the fantasy list). Never had a thing for closets though!! LOL
Wow, plexiglass, huh? That stuff is see through.
Fran — that is a totally sweet story. lol
Yeah, closets generally smell.
Plus, I refuse to go back in there.
Cinie, on January 31st, 2009 at 1:43 am Said:
National Guard armory, strip club bathroom, porn palace stroke booth. I’ve lived an interesting life.
Ok, Cinie wins! I can’t compete with that. LOL
myiq – that whole thing has really got you going.
I know you have a daughter. I have a son. I would not want either a daughter or a son doing it (posing in soft porn). Given reality, I think it is stupid, if nothing else.
IQ, I think what a lot of people are trying to say is, in a perfect world, women ought to be able to do whatever they want sexually and still be taken seriously.
My objection to that is, where I live it’s nearly impossible to be taken seriously as a female candidate no matter what you do, sexually or otherwise. Like it or not, what would happen to a woman posing naked and then trying for a hugely influential political job? All the other women would be expected to do the same thing. It would open up a tremendous opportunity for even more opportunities for exploitation on behalf of the patriarchy.
Sure, in a perfect world it’d be fine to pretend that choices like Campoverde’s don’t matter. But practically speaking, her selection sends a huge message that being willing to pose like that gives you an edge up – which is a serious advantage for women who aren’t overweight or otherwise considered homely.
(As a person with some inside knowledge of personnel practices during Clinton 1, I can absolutely guarantee you there are resumes of 10,000 other women with qualifications equal or superior to Campoverde’s sitting piled in the Old Executive Office Building right now. It’s not like they didn’t have any other choices.)
It almost seems like these folks are encouraging a tremendous amount of looks-ism. Not sure we women need yet another standard to which we’re expected to measure and another hurdle to clear before we’re offered a seat at the table. I’m talking about right now, this week, not in some ideologically pure era in the future.
I’ve done it during the day –but it was an isolated beach that we basically had to ourselves
Summit Rock off Hwy 9 and Skyline Blvd in Santa Clara County.
You can see all of Silicon Valley from there and it felt like they were all watching.
Spammy wonderful spammy tasty spammy (stuck in moderation…damn this thing’s picky lately)
can’t sleep 😦
Wow, I just have to say this is the most boring sex thread I’ve ever read. I think this post must have ED or something.
oh, and one last thing — ’cause I really don’t want to open this can of worms again — but gxm posted some really thoughtful posts & she was unfairly attacked/ridiculed by some of those posters there.
trist — it isn’t a “sex thread” it is an open thread –if you didn’t notice, the picture of George Costanza is a “joke”
Hi afrocity!!
I don’t think we are in the mood for sex, gang.
Gang sex? In a closet? Awwwrigghhhhtttt!
scrubs — quite honestly some of these freaky blogstalkers seem to read & memorize everything we say (hi Ms. Prolly!!) that they are giving me the creeps.
btw– do we know trist?
I don’t think we are in the mood for sex, gang.
Some of my “fans” claim that that’s the only reason I’m here.
we could make it spicy and tell “first time” stories
Well angienc2, I guess that’s good to know. But I wasn’t gonna judge, I mean SOMEONE must find him attractive….I guess.
I thought the idea started with talking about our ideas of sexy actors and actresses a couple of times. ie, fantasy.
my first time story isn’t spicy — it was my wedding night (first wedding). LOL!!
“I’m not talking about “Scarlet Letter” stuff here, with somebody marked for life. But there are lots of things people do when they are young that affects them later in life.”
It’s going to affect her. Her boyfriend the Groper will never pay any consequences for what he did, but she’ll be laughed at and sneered at and mocked by everyone, and if she ever decides to run for office she’ll be laughed off the stage, even if she cures cancer in teh interim. She’ll pay plenty of consequences from anti-feminists without pro-feminists joining in too imo.
do not and will not accept the idea that women should bear no responsibility for the choices they make because it’s all the fault of “The Patriarchy.”
That’s not what they’re saying, though. I don’t have all the answers, but if you ask Violet she is more than happy to answer your questions. But things like putting patriarchy in quotes? Talking about misandry? Saying they’re saying that women should bear no responsibility for the choices they make? That’s the kind of thing they’re not liking. I know you’re mad and you feel attacked, but Violet just said over there and now I’m also suggesting that if you put that aside and go through and look at some of the things they’re saying and think about them, it will be valuable. And I can say that because it happened to me. I read some of the things they wrote and thought about what they were really saying and found it educational and valuable. You can be a feminist and still not have all the answers and learn from others who have been thinking these issues through for a long time.
Fran — it did get started that way & I don’t mind that — but I’m not giving details of my fantasies either (except privately to my lovers because that is their business).
angienc2, on January 31st, 2009 at 1:10 am Said: stuff I agree with!
Anyway years ago Ms. Campoverdi would have been called a “pr i c k” teaser for her pose WHERE that photo was published.
I have this lawyer friend — her mom wanted her to pose topless for Playboy — while she was in college. Playboy loved to visit colleges and get the co-eds to pose topless. My friend told her mom NO!
Imagine being a lawyer with a topless photo floating around — and then this same lawyer went on to be a law professor — imagine the flack she might hear from students.
There are consequences for women — even today — and when a woman chooses to pose with that “pr i c k” teasing pose and look. So it’s not surprising that Ms “pr i c k” teaser’s boyfriend is a misogynistic creep.
By the way my lawyer friend is now the owner of a bar on a tropical island — with the most beautiful view from her home and the bar on the tropical beach. Her mom is still pissed that her daughter didn’t pose for Playboy.
We women still live in a culture that is puritanical and misogynistic — Perhaps this sort of photo might be no big deal in various European countries??
Remember Prez Ray-gun’s daughter Patty — and her Playboy spread? Was she getting even with daddy?
We women know that the girlie photos in the male fantasy mags have no relationship at all to REAL flesh and blood women. But guys have somewhat different visual turn ons then we women.
That photo at the top — of the guy in the “sexy” pose — put a women in that exact pose — or Ms. Campoverdi — and we go from a farce to well “pr i c k” teasing photos — as we old farts used to say.
Men and women are different — but we are both humans. Some feminist (young sweet things) want guys to be more like gals — and this just isn’t going to happen.
Seriously, on January 31st, 2009 at 2:00 am Said:
I’m with you on this — for MOST of the posters there though. There are a few I’m suspicious of (ones, in particular, who have been totally rude to gxm despite her thoughtful non-confrontational posts). Any “further post” on the subject has the danger of unfairly coming across as an attack on Violet.
But, myiq isn’t asking for my opinion about it.
off to bed again (ambien kicked in)
Seriously:
I’m not gonna drag this thread down anymore with that topic.
OK, who has seen the PETA Superbowl ad that NBC choose not to run? Skinny, lingerie clad models ‘doing it’ with vegetables. I guess even PETA has its frat boy writers with their giggly fantasies.
The ad is pure crap. It has nothing to do with the ‘Ethical Treatment of Animals.” PETA spend thousands of dollars on this ad that could have been given to animal shelters or spay/neuter programs. PETA sucks.
nite — afrocity!! Tomorrow is another day — closer to seeing 0 impeached!
Eleanor Rodham A, on January 31st, 2009 at 1:50 am Said:
Liked what you had to say there about look-ism taking over –it does seem to be the case with the Obama WH.
Night afrocity!!
Yeah, but the problem with the Jason Alexander photo up top is that he just plain isn’t HOT!
We women (even gay ones like me) are just as “guilty” (if that is even the right word) of being aroused by pictures as men.
True, though, that it will most likely haunt a woman later on in life than a man.
KJMontana — thank you for saying it. PETA totally sucks — all about “show” — the PETA people care about animals so much but meanwhile they have no problem assaulting human beings by throwing red paint on them, etc. They are akin to those loony tunes anti-choice people who blow up abortion clinics killing doctors & nurses in order to “save the lives of unborn babies.”
Well, once again you have all kept me up too late. Off I go….
Night Fran!
See what I mean?
On a Saturday everyone stays up later
LOL angie, I know, myiq isn’t asking for my opinion. I just can’t help thinking that prolonging this will end up with an uncomfortable situation *shrugs*
Hi all. My self-imposed news and blog embargo is lifted and thought I’d drop in and say hello.
Seriously — I’m with you.
hi poplicola.
I think lots of people are mislead by PETA and simiar groups. People send their donations thinking that the money is going to a good cause – feeding or sheltering animals. Spending money on an ad like that is irresponsible and a complete betrayal of the donors.
Seriously:
When you don’t drag it out in the open and talk about it then it not only doesn’t get better it festers.
KJMontana — of course a lot of people are mislead by PETA — considering who they are lead to vote for and basically “worship” I’d say they are easily mislead. 🙂
No shortage of stupid in the world.
Seriously — I’m with you
I have the right to remain silent but not the ability
Hey pop! Long time no see.
You picked a fine time to jump back in.
Oh poplicola, you picked a great day to lift the embargo. You got to hear all about The Wonder of Casual Friday
It was only 50 years ago that the only occupations available to women were librarian, teacher, nurse or prostitute (and those were only for the ones who couldn’t “land a husband”)
You forgot actress. Now I’m going back up to that post Angie so I can catch up.
Fredster — no I didn’t I listed “prostitute” (and that was the level that actresses were put at then).
Seriously — casual Friday at the White House — he’s just like us! {rolls eyes}
Fredster — but I did forget secretary. D’oh!
I have only skimmed the thread so I don’t know who wrote
“It was only 50 years ago that the only occupations available to women were librarian, teacher, nurse or prostitute (and those were only for the ones who couldn’t “land a husband”)”
but I’ll say that’s false: 68 years ago my grandmother opened her first family business, and it certainly wasn’t in any of the lines listed.
It’s good to be back. 🙂
Someone at work yesterday asked me how I felt about PBO now. I said I was still being cautious.
She said, “well, at least he is hot to look at” to which I replied, “not for me, though I am gay”.
She said, “so you would rather look at Hillary?”
I said, “HELL YEAH!”
So, you straight women: is PBO hot?
Casual Friday is, like, the biggest change ever! ZOMG, loosen your tie and feel the change!
Hell no, as I have said a million times, Obama looks like Alfred E. Newman. With the unnatural smarm of Mitt Romney. He’s not hot–he’s not physically attractive, and he’s not charismatic.
pop — it was mean, and of course, there are always going to be exceptions to the rule — you had an extraordinary grandmother obviously, but the vast majority of women didn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell of opening their own business 68 years ago.
Plus his voice is unbelievably annoying.
HELL NO! People who find that big-eared bobble head on a swizzle stick body attractive are only buying the hype.
And don’t even get me started on that horrendous mole on his nose.
oh, and scrubs — that co-worker is a moron — Hillary is absolutely lovely — those blue eyes!
angienc2, on January 31st, 2009 at 2:34 am Said:
Fredster — no I didn’t I listed “prostitute” (and that was the level that actresses were put at then).
Mmmm….no. Not the “real” ones on the boards. They were considered legitimate.
“nother question for you Angie. I’ve seen you using the term “patriarchy” quite a bit lately but it’s something new. When did you start using that term? That’s been recent.
I have nothing against the term or its use but it seems just recent.
Now…..no fantasies; done it all (Yeah rite!) However, places I’ve done it: the parking lot on a NASA base (damned guards kept doing rolling patrols). The apt. complex’s clubhouse. The bf got me up there to play pool but we weren’t using it for billiards. I kept worrying about someone wanting to come in to play pool and the table being in use; so to speak.
“…. big-eared bobble head on a swizzle stick ….”
Oh, shit, I just spit my wine!
Time for a bunch of your “Fuck”s, angie.
Angie, you forgot seamstress, cook and “domestic,” biggies for African American women 50 years ago.
Seriously — plus he is an insincere lying sack of shite.
Fredster – you reminded me that I did it in the Epcot parking lot (in a car) in broad daylight!
Forgot about that one.
Fredster — I was being facetious about actress = prostitute (although they were not considered the roll models like today).
Yes I have been doing a lot of reading at the reclusive leftist & the word fits.
Exactly, he has worse jug ears than Ross Perot. To be fair, most politicans aren’t that hot, but look at someone like Patterson, he’s handsome and he has a certain quality. BO is just a big dork, and his affectations and personality make him unappealing to even the most pro-dork among us.
scrubs: we were in partial daylight; end of the work day. And yes Angie it was *that* facility in the East. 😉
You know, I don’t even remember PBO having a mole.
During that same conversation yesterday (sitting around waiting for babies to be born), one of the midwives said she heard that Michelle was pregnant. That led us to Google Images to look at recent pictures – ick! She ain’t no babe to look at either.
And, no, we didn’t think she was pregnant.
oh yes, cooking, cleaning & sewing — don’t think that it is too fair to include those since those were expected of all women (except the elite) LOL
So, we have:
1. Secretary
2. Teacher
3. Librarian
4. Nurse
5. Prostitute
6. Actress
7. Seamstress
8. Maid
9. Cook
Anything else?
Yes I have been doing a lot of reading at the reclusive leftist & the word fits.
Okay. I was talking to a friend of similar age and we were discussing that: “Were you working when it was all the white guys who were in control and others in waiting, being groomed to move up?” He laughed and said he thought we were both 7-10 years too late for that.
OH! Telephone operator! There were tons of them.
I was double timing you all here on NQ — here’s what I wrote about 0zero over there just minutes ago:
Comment by Northwest rain | 2009-01-31 02:36:41
Prez beefcake??? YECK and double yeck.
That man is NOT sexy. Creepy — yes — sexy? NO.
A sexy man is a take charge man — who is a real leader.
Hillary is a sexy women — SHE is a leader.
That remark was in response to this:
Comment by noproblama | 2009-01-31 01:57:55
Damn, we missed the opportunity to have a great president.
Instead we have President Beefcake, as the rag mags call him.
Is 0 sexy to gays?? Why did so many gays and lesbians vote for him — even after there was ample evidence that he was NOT on their side?
What angie says about 0 — she has a way with words!!!!!!!!!!
I used to date a woman who had worked at Disneyland and she told me about having sex in the D-land parking lot.
I asked her if they fired her cuz she was fucking goofy.
Telephone operator was a good gig, they had relatively flexible hours (split shifts) great benefits, and sensitivity to women’s needs. That was one of my earliest gigs. First was grocery checker, then salesgirl.
And btw — all of the ones we have so far basically fit into 3 categories: (1) nurturer; (2) housekeeping or (3) wh*re.
PETA sent a couple of idiots to my little town recently to protest fur coats. These folks “leg trapped” themselves downtown until the media came. Oh, how very brave! Because in a COLLEGE TOWN in OREGON you’re going to find so many ladies dripping in ermine. I would loved to have seen them pull that same stunt in, say, Dallas.
And before I get flamed into oblivion — I am a vegan myself. But it’s not something that I generally mention to other people because (1) I am not an evangelist, and (2) PETA and its ilk give all of us a reputation for being empty-headed morons.
Add farmer to your list.
President Beefcake? Yeah…he certainly looks like he works out.
People Eating Tasty Animals? What’s wrong with that?
Too funny, myiq. Fucking goofy.
Northwest – interesting that we are having parallel discussions. Are they talking about fantasy sex?
Nun is one too. A lot of women were forced to take the veil by their families, btw.
onto the “50 years ago” thing … sales clerk? (At least for women’s clothes; or is that too close to “seamstress”?)
pop — I don’t think so about farmer — a women couldn’t just “go be a farmer” because she wanted to — she had to be in a farming family.
Jadzia — Shop girl! That is what they called it.
Yeah, I know a few women in their 70’s now who went into nunnery (is that a word?). One of them became a great surgeon once it was okay to do so.
telephone operators:
http://tinyurl.com/dzkl4o
We all TOTALLY forgot stewardesses! And, I think, hairdressers.
I wish we were all in the same room having this conversation – would be so much funner.
Angie:
There was a time that women couldn’t own property in their own name.
A widow could hold title as “Mrs. Joe Blow” but if she remarried it became her husband’s.
Yep, shopgirl. Wasn’t Claire Danes in that movie? Claire, whom I formerly loved, but since the thing with Mary-Louise Parker, not so much.
So, now we have:
1. Secretary
2. Teacher
3. Librarian
4. Nurse
5. Prostitute
6. Actress
7. Seamstress
8. Maid
9. Cook
10. Shop girl
11. Operator
12. Stewardess
13. Beautician (let’s call them what they were called then!)
Scrubs — the NQ discussion is about Secretary Clinton’s meeting with former SS George Shultz.
I can make a list of beefcakes and 0 would never make that list.
He is the opposite of sexy.
But for some people — power is sexy.
Kissinger made remarks about his sex appeal being due to his powerful position.
myiq2xu: When I bought my first house in LA about five years ago, I had to get my then-soon-to-be-ex-husband’s signature before I was allowed to take title on my own (ie, as “sole and separate”). I am guessing it was because of community property, but it was utterly humiliating nonetheless given that I had kicked the guy to the curb several years before.
Jadzia was the movie “The Women” ?
If so, didn’t see it cuz I couldn’t see how anything could have topped the original
Myiq — yes, I know that about the inability to own property — I’m not sure how long ago that was changed though.
As I correctly pointed out earlier today — the only time the word “women” is mentioned in the Constitution is the 19th amendment (right to vote). That pisses me off.
No, it was called Shopgirl (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0338427/), starring Claire Danes as the love interest of, believe it or not, Steve Martin. Ugh.
Not sure but I’ll throw it in- serving wench, or as we used to say waitress. 🙂
I took anatomy in college from a woman who graduated from medical school but wasn’t permitted to practice medicine – no hospital would accept her as an intern.
love interest of, believe it or not, Steve Martin
Bleh
Jadzia — I think that was because of the community property laws (LA is the same way).
Northwest — Kissinger said “power is the ultimate aphrodisiac”
50 years ago a woman could be an author or an artist, so add that to the list.
Fredster:
Well, that does take us back to sex fantasies, doesn’t it? Because Steve Martin wrote that movie!
50 years ago a woman could be an author or an artist, so add that to the list.
Duh-how could we forget?
USSC Justice Sandra Day O’Connor had to be a legal secretary when she first graduated from law school because no firm would hire her as an attorney.
Since I’m returning after a hiatus I’m a bit rusty (at arguing for fun), but I’ll add pilot, as in at least Amelia Earhart and Anne Lindbergh. Also author, with too many greats to name.
myiq beat me to the punch.
Jadzia:
Title companies will demand that you get a quit-claim deed from anyone who could claim an interest because they are guaranteeing “clear title” and if someone challenges title they are on the hook to defend and pay if they lose.
angienc2, on January 31st, 2009 at 3:15 am Said:
USSC Justice Sandra Day O’Connor had to be a legal secretary when she first graduated from law school because no firm would hire her as an attorney.
And I wonder if it’s a sad fact she probably had to learn to type to get that job.
50 years ago women in the military were basically clerks or nurses.
Near-sightedness is the ultimate aphrodisiac.
myiq — no, I’m not adding those to the list — those are too rare & require special talent so the “option” to be that are not open to every woman. Those aren’t “careers” they are “callings.”
Did you get bank teller? Women were allowed to do that even though they couldn’t be in charge.
pop — pilot? considering there was only one I don’t think that qualifies.
angie, myiq — I knew intellectually that it Wasn’t The Same Thing having to get that sign-off as it would have been in, say, 1955 — but there was still this icky feeling of having to get the dude’s “permission.” Particularly because the relationship dynamic was such that I was pretty sure he was going to try to leverage the situation. Which is probably TMI.
I named two and they weren’t the only ones.
Indifference is the greatest aphrodisiac.
Is waitress on the list?
those are too rare & require special talent so the “option” to be that are not open to every woman.
Then you should take actress off too.
What about singers?
pop — are you seriously contending that 50 years ago any woman who wanted to could be a pilot? That a career as a pilot was seen as a viable option for a woman to earn a living — because if that is true I would love for you to prove me wrong.
Waitress prob should be on the list. Kiss my grits!
pop – I think angie wins this arguement.
I know a LOT of female pilots now but not 50 years ago.
Angie check this:
http://tinyurl.com/al8m9u
Jadzia:
If you really want to get to know somebody, divorce them.
Family law felt like working on the Jerry Springer show.
Angie — make a list of men’s occupations of 50 years ago.
Doctor
Lawyer
Pilot
Laborer (physical labor — from skilled labor like brick layer etc.) — Line men — elec. company workers. Women would be the “office girls”.
Mechanic — Plumber – male occupation
Factory worker (both men & women) — but it was highly segregated and sex role stereotyping was full force 50 years ago.
X ray technician — 50 years ago — both men and women worked in this field — women stayed, men used it as a stepping stone.
Farmer — stereotypically male — but lots of women were farmers 50 years ago.
I’m trying to think of the type of labor listed in the 1930 census and earlier census reports.
US factories employed thousands if not millions of women — the weaving mills etc.
US factories — small appliances etc. employed women — if the owners figured that they could pay women LESS than men — then they’d hire women and change the job title.
————-
If we go back to WWII — women were working at all sorts of jobs that would be closed to them AFTER the war. Women were pilots — they were the ones who built the airplanes in Kansas. (Like my mother did and 0’s mother did).
During the war women were able to do many “male” jobs — and were in the military.
Then there were 2 solid decades of sex role stereotyping. And women had to re-fight the same old battles.
Fredster – that article seems to say that things really began changing in 1977, though it does give a lot of examples of female pilots before then.
myiq2xu — I cannot IMAGINE being a family lawyer. I’d rather drink bleach.
Spammy ate my comment about jobs women worked at — I think Spammy is a male — he gets anxious when we have discussions like this.
50 years ago a female pilot who got paid to fly was probably part of some stunt show – she was a performer, not the pilot of a passenger or cargo plane.
I’ll say that any woman who wanted to could do anything she wanted. The fact that some made it and some did not shows that it was more difficult than now but not impossible. Is that any different today for men or women? Most professional jobs not on your list require “special talent:” doctor, lawyer, artist, author, pilot, etc. I’ve met many women who worked as waitresses, nurses, etc. back then. I also have met one who was in the 50’s or 60’s editor of one of the largest monthly magazines.
Maybe actress shouldn’t be on there — it is late, but I’m not going to argue about it, because I think it is pretty clear that I’m talking about career options that were available to all women who wanted to earn money outside of the home, not naming every exception we can think of like Amelia f*cking Earhart or Virginia f*cking Woolf . Honestly, maybe we should list Queen of England too.
But Scrubs, here’s the important parts:
In 1939, women were allowed to be part of the Civilian Pilot Training Program, a program designed to train college students to fly, with an eye to national defense. But women were limited by quota to one woman for every ten men in the program.
and
On August 5, 1943, these two efforts — WAFS and WFTD — merged to become the Women Airforce Service Pilots (WASP), with Cochran as director. More than 25,000 women applied — with requirements including a pilot’s license and many hours experience. The first class graduated on December 17, 1943.
25,000 women applied and a prereq was to already have a pilots license. They were getting those licenses somewhere and with the timeframe it puts it in something 50 years ago.
Northwest: 0’s mother built airplanes in Kansas? That cannot be right. If we’re talking Rosie the Riveter type work, she would have been a baby at the time.
Furthermore, women who made their living as ‘authors” or “artists” faced strong criticism — they were up against a lot of prejudices that a woman who became a teacher did not.
lol angie I was going to post heads of state, but that is still limited for lots of us.
(I will add in reference to X-ray technician, Marie Curie discovered radium and polonium. 🙂
Not only were the jobs available to women limited, they were further restricted by class and race.
Black women couldn’t be teachers or secretaries.
myiq2xu, on January 31st, 2009 at 3:27 am Said:
50 years ago a female pilot who got paid to fly was probably part of some stunt show – she was a performer, not the pilot of a passenger or cargo plane.
Well, we know that 60 years ago they were used in non-combat roles to fly airplanes for the military. Who knows, maybe some became crop-dusters?
I thought this was a seperate track, but with a bit of a stretch it might be related to our current discussion (granted it is a tangent)
1/6/2009–Introduced. Commission to Study Reparation Proposals
http://poplicola.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/reparations/
Jadzia, on January 31st, 2009 at 3:32 am Said:
Northwest: 0’s mother built airplanes in Kansas? That cannot be right. If we’re talking Rosie the Riveter type work, she would have been a baby at the time.
You are so right. It was 0’s GRANDMOTHER — who worked in airplane factories during the war.
My grandmother was “rosie the riveter” herself –but women were given a ‘pass” by society to do things that they had not been “allowed” to do pre WW2 –and after the war was over they were expected (and did) go back to the home and the acceptable jobs (nurse, teacher, secretary, etc). I’m talking about the socially acceptable jobs.
“not naming every exception we can think of like Amelia f*cking Earhart or Virginia f*cking Woolf . Honestly, maybe we should list Queen of England too”
LOL I wanna be angie when I grow up. Not a lawyer–just angie. 🙂
Northwest Rain — it would make a better joke if she had worked in a bus factory.
Fredster:
In 1943 any man with a pilot’s license was off fighting in the Pacific or the European theater.
I’ll bet most of the female pilots were grounded after 1945.
0’s mother built airplanes in Kansas?
I think Cesna’s plant is in Kansas.
Not only were the jobs available to women limited, they were further restricted by class and race.
Black women couldn’t be teachers or secretaries.
That’s true, and the Amelia Earhardts & Virigina Woolf’s of the world were decidedly upper class.
Who knows, maybe some became crop-dusters?
Self-employed maybe.
BTW – Pussy Galore was a pilot and the leader of an all-woman “flying circus”
It’s implied that she was a lesbian who is converted to hetero by James Bond’s manly charms.
myiq2xu, on January 31st, 2009 at 3:38 am Said:
Fredster:
In 1943 any man with a pilot’s license was off fighting in the Pacific or the European theater.
I’ll bet most of the female pilots were grounded after 1945.
As far as the military, yes you’re probably right. That’s why that article referenced 1977, with the AF Academy graduating it’s first non-WASP female pilot or whatever. Most of those combat-related roles were restricted for so long to men only.
That’s true, and the Amelia Earhardts & Virigina Woolf’s of the world were decidedly upper class.
And Mary Shelley
pop — sadly,what you say about “if a woman wanted to be it she could” isn’t even true today — a woman wanted to be President (and was in fact the most qualified person) and she certainly wasn’t allowed to (and yes, I blame the Patriarchy).
Angie’s correct — the sex role stereotyping was put on hold during WWII.
The 50s, 60s and 70s was when women were pushed back to the home. Home ec was huge — girls were being retrained to be passive house-wives.
The roles/jobs for women outside of the home were very limited.
Certainly not astronauts —
My mom and her mother were rosie-the-riveter workers during WWII. I remember them both talking about it.
Once upon a time women of the upper class attended college and studied subjects in the liberal arts so that they could be interesting companions for their future husbands.
Northwest Rain — I went to a top all girl’s high school way less than 50 years ago and they taught us home ec. (required class, not elective). My brother, meanwhile, at his all boys high school wasn’t offered that course — imagine that? LOL
So do the kids today still take home ec?
angie, my wife was watching Governor Palin’s State of the State address yesterday almost in tears.
What is this Patriarchy of which you speak, and when do the doors to the club roll open for me? Do I have to be a certain kind of white male to get the special benefits? I haven’t seen them.
not with all the budget cuts. We had a bake sale to try and save our home ec teacher, but it didn’t save her. LOL
Interesting discussion, zombies, but I’m going to leave you now to go watch the movie, Bobby, with my daughter.
Catch you all tomorrow.
My grandparents on both sides were farmers. They weren’t poor, but they were close.
Everybody on the farm helped with everything – only the small children and the very old didn’t work.
Sometimes the men on farms would take jobs off the farm except for planting and harvest time.
When I was in school (I graduated high school in ’71) in Chicago, there was a school for girls called Jones Commercial that taught secretarial skills. All the students had to wear stockings and heels and gloves every day. It was a pretty exclusive public high school back then.
poplicola: Here’s my comment earlier in the thread about the patriarchy:
Okay. I was talking to a friend of similar age and we were discussing that: “Were you working when it was all the white guys who were in control and others in waiting, being groomed to move up?” He laughed and said he thought we were both 7-10 years too late for that.
pop — you were born into it just like I was & just like everyone else here.
Seriously: That’s sad. Home ec really does give kids some basic life skills (like cooking on a budget) that they might not otherwise have. Basic personal finance (like don’t get a credit card while you’re a college student!) should be included as well.
Of course, I’m of the generation for whom home ec WASN’T sex-segregated, so it wasn’t something that I resented. If it hadn’t been for home ec I probably would have starved my first few years on my own (nobody else in my family can cook anything that doesn’t involve a can opener or a microwave).
The Patriarchy is THIS culture — this is what allowed the denigration of both Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin.
The Patriarchy permeates this culture to the point that most people do not even recognize it. As Angie mentions women aren’t even mentioned IN the Constitution until we are given the right to vote. As a general rule — women take their husbands surname — and the children take the father’s name — THAT is the biggest evidence of the still existing patriarchy.
On the other hand many early Native tribes were a matriarchy — land was owned by the women — farmed by the men. Descent was tracked through the female lines.
The US Government Patriarchy refused to recognize the Cherokee matriarchy and awarded payments and land to the MALES.
All of my high school history text books were HIS story — women somehow weren’t a part of history. ALL of my English texts were MALE authors ONLY.
Girls get lots of messages about our roles — as Angie points out == SHE had to take home ec — her brother did not.
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer | January 14, 2009
Article from: The Australian
ONE of the final links to the early days of aviation in Australia has been broken with the death yesterday of Nancy Bird Walton.
Mrs Walton, who preferred to be known as Nancy-Bird, was taught to fly by another aviation legend, Charles Kingsford Smith, and was the first woman in Australia to obtain a commercial pilot’s licence.
She pioneered an air ambulance service in outback NSW, became the commandant of the Women’s Air Training Corps during World War II and was founder and long-time president of the Australian Women Pilots’ Association.
She was named a national living treasure in 1997 and her place in Australian aviation history was recognised last year when Qantas named its first Airbus A380 superjumbo after her.
She had been in and out of hospital in recent months and died yesterday of natural causes in the Sydney suburb of Mosman aged 93.
“She had a very long and fulfilled life,” her granddaughter, Anna Holman, said yesterday. “I think of it more as celebration because she had such a long and wonderful life and inspired so many people.”
Ms Holman said Mrs Walton’s health declined after the A380 naming ceremony and she took a turn for the worse last Friday.
Mrs Walton had joked that she was determined to stay alive for the delivery of the aircraft and was particularly thrilled by the tribute.
The aviatrix remained a tireless champion of aviation and as recently as last year was helping to promote the Royal Flying Doctor Service.
Her love of the industry was reflected in the tributes that began rolling in last night.
“Ever since her first flight, she helped dispel the myth that flying is solely a man’s domain,” Acting Prime Minister Julia Gillard said.
http://www.horizon1ent.com/site/teenage-pioneer-nancy-bird-walton-broke-through-barriers-in-the-sky/
What is this Patriarchy of which you speak
It depends on who you listen to.
It’s either a theoretical construct that explains our sexist culture, or it’s the misogynists version of the Illuminati.
It’s not just home ec, pretty much everything is being cut–music, art, shop, home ec, languages–everything that isn’t absolutely required.
“The Patriarchy is THIS culture — this is what allowed the denigration of both Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin.”
46% of us didn’t.
goodniiiiiight
Girls couldn’t take shop until the late sixties, either.
When I was in junior high they didn’t officially segregate by gender but shop classes were mostly boys and cooking, sewing and typing classes were mostly all female.
They were still teaching Gregg Shorthand when I started HS.
Cinie, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:01 am Said:
Girls couldn’t take shop until the late sixties, either.
And I bet it was the “fast” girls; the ones who bobbed their hair.
I think the arts being cut is worse than home ec (in my home ec class we learned how to sew a blouse & a skirt; learned to cook a few things — different appetizers for “entertaining” breakfast, some baking & how to set a table properly LOL!) not that, as Jadzia says there isn’t value in home ec, but children should have more access to the arts to help develop their creativity & whatever talent they may have that they might not have discovered otherwise.
pop — did 46% of the media not denigrate Hillary & Sarah? did 46% of the so-called leaders in our government not denigrate Hillary & Sarah? That is the proper context to look at what the Patriarchy did or didn’t do to Hillary & Sarah.
They used to teach how to send thank you notes and choose proper stationery, too. In addition to flower arranging/pressing.
Descent was tracked through the female lines.
My understanding was that NA tribes didn’t practice individual ownership of property.
Descent through female lines makes more sense – until the 20th century paternity couldn’t be proven, but maternity is easy.
The Illuminat!? Are they the ones in the black helicopters?
Seriously, on January 31st, 2009 at 3:59 am Said:
It’s not just home ec, pretty much everything is being cut–music, art, shop, home ec, languages–everything that isn’t absolutely required.
That is awful!!! I am SO glad I’m not a student today. High Schools remind me of prisons.
We had to fight for changes — and then there were the free speech demonstrations in the colleges.
I had some really great Home ec teachers — I make fantastic muffins from scratch — thanks to Home ec. My Kansas aunts were Home ec teachers.
We all had to take everything, when we had it.
Cinie, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:05 am Said:
They used to teach how to send thank you notes and choose proper stationery, too. In addition to flower arranging/pressing.
LOL! I forgot those parts of home ec –yes, along with how to set the table, we learned about flower arranging, thank you notes, the proper way to accept or decline an invitation: “I regret that I will be unable to attend your birthday party on the 6th of June . . .” LOL!!
ok, i relaly am going to bed after this. I’ve been thinking about this issue of “what should the schools cut if they have to cut,” because our local school district is in that situation right now. And while ideally the answer is nothing, my practical, yet idealistic, solution was: if you’ve got to cut something, cut the thing that the community will raise funds to replace, the program that is going to find a constituency. It’s a lot easier to get people to go to fundraisers to shore up a music program than home ec, shop, or vocational programs. At least in my town.
aaaand i’m really going to bed now. discuss all the reasons I am wrong and/or full of crap amongst yourselves.
: )
night Jadzia!!
farm workers and factory workers-particularly in textile factories, canneries, fish cleaning etc
stable hands (but not jockeys.)
Poultry pickers. (Shelley Winter’s aunt during the 20s brought over at least 18 members of her family from Europe this way.)
ok, REALLY last thing — you guys had a MUCH different home ec than I did! I’m guessing you went to more genteel schools….. We didn’t do anything like flower arranging or the gracious art of hospitality; we really DID learn how to make cheap nutritious meals. The only impractical thing I remember doing was a faintly ridiculous sewing project, a decorative pillow, for which I won a prize (for being creative!).
High schools used to have two tracks – college prep and vocational training.
But what ended up happening is all the middle class white kids were automatically put in the college prep track and all the minorites and poor whites were channeled into vocational.
Girls were trained to be housewives or secretaries.
Now they don’t teach kids anything.
What’s really bad, too, is the libraries. If they fire the librarians, then the regionalized library systems won’t recognize the school library, and they get cut off from borrowing any materials from outside. And if teh school library doesn’t have much and nothing can be borrowed from other libraries in the area, not good.
angienc — as far as I could tell ALL the media denigrated them. As visible as they are I don’t consider them our culture. Looking at the real results is a better measure, and 46% of us weren’t swayed.
myiq2xu, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:06 am Said:
Descent was tracked through the female lines.
My understanding was that NA tribes didn’t practice individual ownership of property.
It depends on the tribe — for the Hopi the fields are held by the women — the men work the women’s fields.
Cherokee women owned the lodges. There are so many different tribal traditions that it is really hard to generalize — but for the tribes that farmed (corn mostly) — it appears that the women owned the plots of land. Men married into a clan etc.
There is a neat quote from Hopi elders trying to explain how their system works to the US Patriarchal overseers of the dept. of Indian Affairs. Basically they explained that the men work the corn plots that are owned by the women and they live in the lodges of the women.
Are they the ones in the black helicopters?
Shhh! Do you really want to go to Gitmo?
“They used to teach how to send thank you notes and choose proper stationery, too. In addition to flower arranging/pressing.”
Wow. I actually think it would be kind of a useful skill to be able to distinguish proper and improper stationary.
It’s being closed soon anyway, lmao. (by the way, is anyone tracking the broken promises yet?)
Jadzia, there is nothing “genteel” about the South Side of Chicago where I went to school. Maybe Hyde Park, but we weren’t “encouraged” to go there.
I think the Hopi were the best warriors among the NA, but nobody hears much about them because they were one of the first groups in what is now the US to get slaughtered by Europeans.
I hate it when a thread suddenly goes silent
myiq the first group to be slaughtered by Europeans were probably the Arawaks, 2000 miles southeast of Hopi land.
Seriously, I don’t remember much of it, but you were supposed to have formal, informal and business stationery, and never the twain shall meet.
Even back then, we were also supposed to know proper seasonal dress for each occasion, including gloves, hats and hankies. Business wear, casual wear, sportswear, formal, informal, cocktail, day wear, etc.
Laurie — yeah, we basically covered maids — the sh!t jobs have always been available to the “lower class women” Somehow I find those difficult to characterize as “careers”
popicola — individuals live in the Patriarchy, they are not, individually the Patriarchy. I’m pretty certain now that you are basically a Patriarchy denier (besides trying to make the case for the great & thriving careers scores of women have enjoyed as pilots during the early 20th century) so I’m not going to bother to talk to you about it.
Jadzia — my high school was definitely “genteel.”
myiq2xu, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:11 am Said:
High schools used to have two tracks – college prep and vocational training.
But what ended up happening is all the middle class white kids were automatically put in the college prep track and all the minorites and poor whites were channeled into vocational.
This is how it used to be in CA where I went to high school. But my high school was different — it was full of military brats. I was in college prep — and my high school was fully integrated.
One of the guys in my class will have a movie out this year sometime — as the lead!! He happens to be a black guy. Because our high school was right next door to the military base — we had perhaps one of the most integrated classes in the Bay Area. We also had upper middle class kids and kids from poor working class families. If the kids could pass the tests and keep their grades up they got into the college prep track.
At the time I never realized how different my high school was — I was generally the only white kids in the class in Hawaii.
College prep classes are really important — some kids are serious about studying and others are just keeping a seat warm.
Arawaks and Caribs were in the Caribbean. The Seminoles in Florida were the first group here in what’s now the US.
But the Juan De Onate settlement in what is now New Mexico was located in Hopi lands.
My comment went to spam.
My comment went to spam.
My life went to shit.
Seriously, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:15 am Said: It isn’t that difficult — look for weighty 100% cotton paper with a visible watermark — the feel of the paper itself should be “silky” as opposed to “coarse.” LOL
angie if individuals can live in the patriarchy then they can live without (that is, outside) it as well.
As for being a denier, I really don’t know what it is, much less enough to deny its existence. I live in the same country as you and studied its history but do not see a calculated oppressive conspiracy.
My high school was college prep (even with that home ec. class — lol). The public schools at the time though had both “college prep” & “vocational” tracks — I don’t know for a fact, but I’d bet the tracks were separated out like myiq describes in his.
The Seminoles are a “new” group, formed of displaced peoples form the north, including Cherokee, runaway slaves, and local people in Florida. They appear early in the nineteenth century.
poplicola, “all men are created equal,” “I have a dream when black men and white men…” etc.
Jadzia — my high school was definitely “genteel.”
Jadzia, Angie went to McGehee’s school for girls:
http://www.mcgehee.k12.la.us/content/the-gate.html
and her brother went to Newman:
http://www.newmanschool.org/
angie, I think you were a little rought on popicola. I think he was just trying to ask some questions as was I.
LOL I have a box of smurf notecards I got while dumpster diving–even without the specialized training I can tell I’m full of fail. 🙂
if individuals can live in the patriarchy then they can live without (that is, outside) it as well.
If you define patriarchy as a male-dominated sexist culture then you can’t live outside of it unless you go live in the woods. You can live within the patriarchy in enclaves where the sexism is isn’t practiced but even then it can’t be kept out. You can’t escape the culture you live in, but you can try to change it.
OTOH, you’re correct that there is no calculated oppressive conspiracy. There is no secret society of misogynists running things.
pop — I told you I’m not discussing it but I will say that you being a man do not live in the same country as I do. If you really want to learn about it (which honestly I kind of doubt) then do some research beyond what you learned in the schools sanctioned by & part of The Patriarchy.
Cinie, that is the same magnificent American who dreamed of “a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.”
Hopis are in the Southwest — they have occupied the same land for centuries. The ancestors of present day Hopi built stone dwelling starting about 1000 to 1160 which are still standing or in ruins — but still recognizable.
There is one structure built by Hopis which is the oldest continually occupied structure in the US. I believe it is in New Mexico.
You are correct the Indians really didn’t have the concept of INDIVIDUAL ownership of land — the women’s clan would own the field or the house. Or the tribe would consider a specific area to be the territory of the tribe. Whereas the European invaders believed that various patches of land had been given by the European Kings and Queens to the European white folk. This was a very different concept of land ownership then the ownership in common of the Native Americans.
I’ll try to find that Hopi explanation of Hopi land “ownership” — which also corresponds to the Cherokee belief.
There is no secret society of misogynists running things.
Right myiq — there is nothing secret about it! LOL
Fredster — wrong — Sacred Heart & Jesuit.
Hopis are in the Southwest
The reason I think the Hopi were the best warriors is that they lived next to the Apache, but the Hopi lived on the fertile green land and the Apache lived in the desert.
They caused problems for the Spaniards too.
The Carib indians were so fierce the Spaniards gave up trying to conquer them and just killed all of them, then they named the sea after them.
Sacre Coeur? Nah. Should have gone to McGehees.
And oh please jesuit??? Could have made it Br. Martin or de la Salle. 😉
Besides, I was just guessing. 😆
As long as you didn’t say Country Day.
Right angie — all you had to do is watch tv and see & hear the misogynists.
Most men really don’t notice it — even the guys who are feminists.
I’ve noticed that male drivers don’t challenge my husband like they do me. Many males are hyper aggressive, pushy and rude when they are behind the wheel.
Of course East Coast drivers (and S. Calif drivers) of both sexes are really aggressive and rude — from driving during rush hours?? But even here it is the males are tend to be more aggressive and will cut a female driver off — because they think we won’t retaliate.
The Hopi are not known as a warlike people. If you’re looking for warriors there are fiercer groups.
Jesuit is a far, far superior school to Br. Martin or De La Salle!
Sacred Heart is the best school there is for girls in New Orleans, although I admit McGehee is a close second.
Here’s my dear alma mater’s web site:
http://www.ashrosary.org/
Northwest rain, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:50 am Said:
Right angie — all you had to do is watch tv and see & hear the misogynists.
Most men really don’t notice it — even the guys who are feminists.
heck, a lot of the time even most women don’t notice it –that is how ingrained the Patriarchy is!
Fredster — Country Day is for the rich kids who aren’t smart enough to get into Sacred Heart or Jesuit! LOL!!!
Jesuit is a far, far superior school to Br. Martin or De La Salle!
Oh but there are arguments about that; esp. Br. Martin.
Fredster — sure there are — rivals –they’re just jealous — at least at the time my brother went Jesuit had the highest test scores, etc.
The Seminoles are a “new” group, formed of displaced peoples form the north, including Cherokee, runaway slaves, and local people in Florida.
As Europeans settled the North American continent they displaced native American tribes who were forced into the already occupied lands of other tribes. If there were too many to assimilate they either pushed the other tribes off their land or passed through the lands and kept moving until they found lands they could conquer and hold, either way causing a ripple effect of turmoil far beyond the European settlement.
There was no “pristine wilderness” in the “New World” From the Artic Circle to Tierra Del Fuego it was all occupied when the white man got here.
“heck, a lot of the time even most women don’t notice it –that is how ingrained the Patriarchy is!”
I really cannot argue with that.
And here is my alma mater’s website:
http://www.lil-abner.com/dogpatch.html
angienc2, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:55 am Said:
Fredster — Country Day is for the rich kids who aren’t smart enough to get into Sacred Heart or Jesuit! LOL!!!
I knew that. This one’s about the same:
http://www.ecoleclassique.com/
from a Hopi document dated 1894 to “the Washington chiefs” –signed by 127 clan and village leaders.
“The family, the dwelling house and the field are inseparable, because the woman is the heart of these, and they rest with her. Among us the family traces its kin from the mother, hence all possessions are hers. The man builds the house but the woman is the owner, because she repairs and preserves it; the man cultivates the field, but he renders its harvest into the woman’s keeping, because upon her it rests to prepare the food, and the surplus of stores for barter depends on her thrift.
“. . . our fields and houses always remain with our mother’s family . . ”
pg 15 — Chapter “The Ancient Way” —
“People of the Chaco”, by Kendrick Franzier
Ah, ecole classique! LOL
Fredster — sure there are — rivals –they’re just jealous — at least at the time my brother went Jesuit had the highest test scores, etc.
Actually I’s say they are both top-notch schools. What’s a shame is that other than Ben Franklin, there are no good public schools there. Parent who want a good education for their kids have to send them to private schools of some type.
Fredster — I didn’t realize you went to Holy Cross! LOL
Fredster –if we had lived in Orleans parish when we were in high school my parents would have sent the both of us to Ben Franklin — at least at the time it was the best high school in New Orleans. But, we lived in Jefferson.
Absolutely correct!!!!!!!!!!
myiq2xu, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:58 am Said:
The Seminoles are a “new” group, formed of displaced peoples form the north, including Cherokee, runaway slaves, and local people in Florida.
As Europeans settled the North American continent they displaced native American tribes who were forced into the already occupied lands of other tribes. If there were too many to assimilate they either pushed the other tribes off their land or passed through the lands and kept moving until they found lands they could conquer and hold, either way causing a ripple effect of turmoil far beyond the European settlement.
There was no “pristine wilderness” in the “New World” From the Artic Circle to Tierra Del Fuego it was all occupied when the white man got here.
And yet the history texts in school tell a completely different story — that America was an empty land waiting to be settled.
What happened to the native population was a holocaust — millions died — making way for the European. I have both European and Native American ancestors.
Oh sh!t !! It’s 4 a.m. here. Gotta go if i want to somehow function tomorrow.
Later!!!
“myiq2xu, on January 31st, 2009 at 4:58 am Said:
The Seminoles are a “new” group, formed of displaced peoples form the north, including Cherokee, runaway slaves, and local people in Florida.
As Europeans settled the North American continent they displaced native American tribes who were forced into the already occupied lands of other tribes. If there were too many to assimilate they either pushed the other tribes off their land or passed through the lands and kept moving until they found lands they could conquer and hold, either way causing a ripple effect of turmoil far beyond the European settlement.
There was no “pristine wilderness” in the “New World” From the Artic Circle to Tierra Del Fuego it was all occupied when the white man got here.”
True, but any Spanish contact with Seminoles would have been at the very end of the Spanish rule of Florida, which ended around 1821.
I’ve just pulled a book from the shelf next to my desk you might find interesting (and local to you I think):
Florida Indians and the Invasion from Europe
Jerald Milanich
University Press of Florida
1995
night Fredster!
I just had my own OMFG moment — 5:06 a.m.!
Good night all!!
angienc2, on January 31st, 2009 at 5:03 am Said:
Fredster — I didn’t realize you went to Holy Cross! LOL
Well…lived in da parish! 😉
I actually went to h.s. in Kentucky. And what a surprise it was when we moved to LA only to discover that on average, the KY public schools were ahead of those in LA! HAR!
nite Angie — sleep tight.
nite to all.
from a Hopi document dated 1894
By 1894 the Hopi had about 300 years of contact with European/white people, most of it not pleasant.
The Spaniards usually enslaved them and stripped them of their native culture, converting them to Christianity and forcing them to learn Spanish.
The Anglo-Americans either drove them off or killed them. When the white men ran out of unsettled lands they took the worst parts of the land they had and told the NA’s they had to live there.
By the time anyone actually started trying to study the native Americans most of their culture and history was destroyed. Forcing the NA kids to learn and speak only English made it impossible to pass down oral histories which had to be memorized in the native languages..
G’night!
What happened to the native population was a holocaust — millions died
Millions died before they ever saw a white man, as disease raced across the continent. One reason the white man thought the land was unoccupied was that by the time they got there is damn near was.
There are only fragments of Indian cultures remaining. Some tribes have done a better job — the ones living on the marginal land didn’t have the intense European contact that the Eastern tribes had to endure.
Some of the Cherokee traditions have persisted in my family — faint traces of another culture underlying the dominate culture. The Spaniards were damned effective in eradicating cultures. My genealogical research lead me to a Jewish line — and not a trace remains. Spanish Jews were forced to renounce their religion and their heritage or be killed. Most chose life — and then some escaped and found their way to the colonies.
Some Hopi clans have managed to maintain their language and their customs — which seems amazing to me.
I studied the cultures of the Southwest in college — and I’m going to take a tour through the southwest ruins in a couple of weeks. So I’m reading all the new research since I left college.
Some of the diseases the Indians died of were deliberately introduced in the blankets etc.
There’s something about this in the Anover (sp?) prep school song.
As Indian tribes were displaced they moved on and displaced other tribes — as you mentioned all or nearly all the livable territory had been fully occupied by Indigenous people — from the most extreme deserts to the mountains. Many of the tribes were hunter gatherers — who moved seasonally to follow the food source. When the Europeans moved in — the Indians starved. This was genocide — but only recently has it been called genocide.
Some of the diseases the Indians died of were deliberately introduced in the blankets etc.
I remember reading that the trappers would come through and trade with the NA’s, and when they left the diseases stayed behind. The next time the trappers came through there was nobody there.
The spread of diseases by Europeans also happened in the Pacific Islands.
At contact the Hawaiians were probably the most healthy of any “primitive” people. They were also advanced — Taro was cultivated and there were fish farms/ponds. Their diet was very healthy — and the Europeans brought disease and bad habits. Capt. Cook paid for his sins.
I’m not interested in sex, I’m interested in intimacy.
I love smelling my husband’s hair and lying next to him feeling the warmth of his body. Best times – early morning as the sun is rising and the world is just starting to stir. I just watch the daylight seep into the room and listen to my husband breathe.
And I feel loved and thankful.
WWOD about Rove? You’ll never guess!
http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2009/01/31/obama-on-rove-time-out/
im just thinking, ummmmmmm….if you are president of the united states of america, why would you root for one team or the other, they are all american teams, but i guess maybe, that will put some fire under the cardinals team to whoop ass, wish they would just because you know, you know you know LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
myiq2xu,
totally not cool to come over here and try to piss other feminists off. For someone that want to brag about their intellect- your level of emotional maturity is quite low.
You blog- there will be times that people don’t agree with you. Sometimes people can be nasty. I don’t like that either, but I’ve had it happen to me too. We all have. Deal with it.
This coming over here to talk bad about other feminists and trying to purposely write articles to piss off and create divide between this site and another- totally NOT COOL.
For all you folks who are confused about how to have sex on a sink, watch Fatal Attraction. And yes, I have done it too SOD! And on a kitchet cabinet, table, etc.
Furthermore, it seems to me that these so-called “feminists” should stop wasting their time attacking Myiq and TC and start focusing on how the government is trying to take our rights away. I’ve never understood why every time a man tries to stand up for women’s right, suddenly there is a swarm of women demanding perfect ideological purity from him–with several different types of ideology represented. It’s a no-win situation for all concerned.
It’s about time some “feminists” recognized that males too are brainwashed and victimized by the system. Read som evolutional psychology, for heaven’s sake. Males are subject to a hierarchical system too. You can’t look at women’s situation separately from the class system. These women at RL are just stroking their own egos, IMHO.
Lisa,
I’d say myiq has been dealing with it. If the RL folks can attack and talk about our blog, why should we have to remain silent? Love to hear that explanation.
No one ever talked bad about this blog. And only 3 or so people over at RL attacked him. Coming over here and posting people’s responses and then saying that he is going to write something just to piss people off is very immature.
I love both blogs. I hate to see someone stirring up anger between people that have a common goal and good will between each other just because they got their feelings hurt.
Lisa,
I haven’t been to RL for days. The last time I was there, there were 70 comments on the post criticizing Myiq’s post. At that time, there were already a lot more than three people attacking him. Violet’s post completely misrepresented the point of both of Myiq’s posts in the first place. Frankly, I agreed with his first post and, while I disagreed with some of what he said on the second one, I didn’t think anything he said was anti-feminist. Many many people came here and posted attacks on him too–people we’d never seen before.
Jadzia – I am a Steeler fan bigtime and a Hillary Clinton supporter and worker even more bigtime.
I want you to know that western PA strong willed women, who are feminists, know more about football than most men, and are Steeler fans.
And we don’t take crap from anyone, including BO supporters.
What you forget is that those western PA counties went for Hillary over BO by margins of 70 something to 20 something.
And we still don’t like him…..even though he claims to be a fan.
No one ever talked bad about this blog.
ORLY?
How do you interpret this?
I didn’t claim it, I quoted it.
When did TC become a “feminist blog?” Why do people keep saying that? I don’t want this blog to be limited to writing about feminism, and I’ve never seen RD characterize the blog that way either. When this becomes a feminist blog only, I have a feeling I will hear about it.
Bostonboomer I understand that you are supporting your friend, and I have only followed the thread at RL, I didn’t come here to read the thread, so I don’t know what was said here.
saying things like:
Furthermore, it seems to me that these so-called “feminists”
wow… that is one heck of a toxic statement. Now you are questioning all the women that read Violet’s blog? It is a site for “so called feminists”?
Hey, I understand being mad if you are attacked. And I understand backing up your friends, but as I said before, I think attacking an ENTIRE site that is working towards the same goals as you, and purposely TRYING to create bad feelings is wrong.
miq2xu, I think she was attacking you, and presuming to read the thoughts in your head. I don’t hear the attack on TC in there.
Bostonboomer, I did not comment here to get attacked. I don’t understand your anger with me. It sure as heck seems like a feminist blog to me.
totally not cool to come over here and try to piss other feminists off. For someone that want to brag about their intellect- your level of emotional maturity is quite low.
You blog- there will be times that people don’t agree with you. Sometimes people can be nasty. I don’t like that either, but I’ve had it happen to me too. We all have. Deal with it.
This coming over here to talk bad about other feminists and trying to purposely write articles to piss off and create divide between this site and another- totally NOT COOL.
1. I never was cool
2. I don’t “come over” here, I live here
3. Who did I try to piss off over here?
4. I don’t brag about my intellect (alias = joke)
5. I’ve always been immature
6. You deal with it your way, I’ll deal with it mine
7. Not trying to talk bad, I’m just reporting what is said about me and people here. If that pisses people off, blame the person who said it.
8. Not writing article to piss them off, I just know it will
9. I’m not trying to cause divide between this site and any other, especially one that belongs to someone I respect very much
10. I never was cool.
I don’t hear the attack on TC in there.
Then who “preened and fawned” over me?
miq, people were vicious to you over there. I agree with that. It got ugly. I hate that. I personally can’t stand to be attacked unless it is with logic.
It just sounds when you say “my next post is really going to piss them off” that you have no other goal than to do just that.
I feel much better after hearing point number 9.
I did not comment here to get attacked.
No. you came here to attack me
no I really honestly didn’t. I don’t wish to attack you. I just really don’t want to see a war erupt between two of my favorite sites.
I personally can’t stand to be attacked unless it is with logic.
Getting attacked doesn’t bother me much, I’ve got a thick skin.
I prefer when people make personal attacks (like accusing me of bragging about my intellect) because it tells me they got nothing else, and if they got nothing else then I won.
whatever…
you need to win something then knock yourself out.
My two cents re myiq and feminism controversy and what’s
been happening lately on TC and on rl:
1- It’s been very edgy. That’s a good thing. Edgy in terms of
new and radical ideas. I’ve been learning a lot. Both from
reading other people and paying attention to my own
thoughts, reactions. After being in one of the early
consciousness raising groups thirty-five years ago,
reading tons of books, etc., my consciousness was
raised more by some of the comments on rl. Other
comments had so much hate they turned me off, almost
scared me. I don’t scare easily by expression of emotion.
2-Edgy in terms of a lot of anger, at times being
downright mean and nasty. I take some responsibility
for my own part in that too. So much anger has been
stirred up here lately, and it can be contagious.
Maybe it’s because we are taking it to the next level,
whatever that will be, more openness, definitely more
vulnerability, intimacy, therefore more risk.
3- This blog was founded in anger in big part – anger at k*s,
at Obots, at sexism, at the media. There’s a lot to be angry
about. A lot is decades old, that I’d thought we’d gotten
beyond, but is worse than ever now. We’ve been paying
attention and we’re angry.
There’s more I think, but I’ll post it as I think of it. I’ve been
thinking about this a lot and keep thinking of more things
but have not wanted to post for a while because of fear
of being attacked. But that’s a learning experience, too.
I just really don’t want to see a war erupt between two of my favorite sites.
There’s not going to be any war. I’ve been a regular at RL for a long time and will continue to do so.
Violet didn’t attack or insult me, she disagreed with what I said and focused on that, not me.
I have no intention of attacking Violet or trying to anger her – I respect her too much.
The people that attacked me (here, there and at TGW) are a different story. But my way of attacking people is to take their words, hold up them up to the light and ridicule them.
you need to win something then knock yourself out.
Political writing is argument – arguments have winners.
When people resort to dishonesty and personal attacks it’s because they can’t refute the facts and logic of the other person.
Now unless there is something else I’m going back to bed. It’s barely 7 am here.
I’m late to the party but, My Great Grandmother was a Telegraph Operator for the railroad at the turn of the last century.
My Grandmother was a factory worker.
Another career for women was sewing piece work — and rising to seamstress.
hey kb, check email.
I’m putting up a new thread to discuss what feminism is.
taggles, I just replied.
New Post Up!!
Okay, I can’t just let that go. Political writing is arguing true. There AREN”T always clear winners. It isn’t math or hard and true equations. There isn’t always a “right” answer.
But what we are discussing here isn’t politics. We are discussing emotional reactions. There are no winners.
Please bring this discussion up to the new post. I’d like to take part, but this thread is crashing my browser!!
There AREN”T always clear winners. It isn’t math or hard and true equations. There isn’t always a “right” answer.
But what we are discussing here isn’t politics. We are discussing emotional reactions.
Arguments have winners, even if the winner isn’t always clear. Argument is testing differing points of view aginst each other and seeing which one prevails. We use logical reasoning to solve equations and to argue.
Feminism is politics. As for emotional reactions, que sera, sera.