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Wednesday: The NYTimes grinds its ax on Gillibrand

Does she know the man in the middle is a wetback from Britain??

Does she know the man in the middle is a wetback from Britain??

They are just not going to get over it.  Caroline Kennedy was their girl.  The great heaving mass of aging Baby Boomers besotted with Camelot is going to hurl its ire at New York’s interim senator until she goes away, just like they did to Hillary Clinton.  For all we know, Hillary’s ability to snag the Secretary of State position is driving them to these extremes.   She eluded their grasp. It now appears that the Times doesn’t really care if a Democrat keeps the senate seat just as long as it isn’t Gillibrand.  After all, the NYTimes did not give her their blessing.  Therefore, it will pursue a mean spirited and destructive personal vendetta against Gillibrand until she yields or is defeated.  Die!, you evil upstate wench!

Today, Gillibrand is being racked for being an anti-immigrant crusader:

Ms. Gillibrand, a Democrat, opposed any sort of amnesty for illegal immigrants, supported deputizing local law enforcement officers to enforce federal immigration laws, spoke out against Gov. Eliot Spitzer’s proposal to allow illegal immigrants to have driver’s licenses and sought to make English the official language of the United States.

Still, Ms. Gillibrand has not backed down from her long-standing opposition to “amnesty” for illegal immigrants, which has left some immigrant advocates wondering whether she would support any law that would establish a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.

In Washington on Tuesday, the new senator elaborated, saying, “I don’t support amnesty because I don’t think it will work.” She added that the amnesty bill was “fatally flawed.”

She said, for example, that “the guest worker program all but guaranteed illegal immigration.” But she suggested one alternative might be to allow consecutive five-year work visas, with the ability to apply for permanent residency at the end.

Ms. Gillibrand also said that she would support finding ways to speed up the reunification of immigrant families; some of them can wait as long as eight years.

“They should get rid of the backlog,” she told reporters in the Russell Senate Office Building.

Damn!  I happen to agree with her on the guest worker program.  It always seemed to me like a backdoor way of creating a permanent underclass of cheap labor with no rights.  I suppose my position “borders on xenophobia” as well.  I could be wrong about this but as conservative as she seems on immigration, it appears that some of her positions are being deliberately taken out of context.  For example, when she says she wants to increase funding for enforcement of immigration laws, does she mean she wants more ICE squads rounding up factories full of Mexican chicken pluckers or does she mean she wants the chicken plucker factory owners trembling with fear whenever they attempt to hire an illegal?  The article is vague on this point, perhaps deliberately so.  Oh, and she wants to speed up reunification efforts.  Well, that seems positively heartless.   Maybe she is secretly hoping to deport her own husband as well.  Those Brits will do just about ANYTHING to stay in the states including marrying an up and coming politician. Logical consistency is not necessary.  They’ll throw everything and see what sticks.

She represented a conservative district.  She had some pretty unpleasant conservative positions.  But she’s also a fierce defender of unions and new deal programs.  She has a couple of years to make a transformation from being the rep from a beautiful but rural section of New York to being a senator who represents the vast majority of New Yorkers who are progressive.

But all of that is beside the point.  The Times is out to get her.  They are going to smear her within an inch of her life on everything she says or does.  All voters are equal but some voters, with access to large amounts of ink, paper and bandwidth, are more equal than others.  The NYTimes is now slapped with junk bond status, the result of Pinch Sultzberger’s cludgy and stupid management decisions.  He retained Judy Miller, who had to have been cooperating with the Bush war machine.  He charged subscription fees for the Op/Ed columnists, who are virtually worthless in a burgeoning blogosphere, while giving away his most valuable commodity, the news.  Then he allowed his paper to be turned into an Obamarama special for nearly a year.  Didn’t anyone stop and think that these decisions might end up alienating a good hunk of the target audience?  Lately, even the news has taken on a nasty negative tone.  Can’t they just report and save the editorializing for the Op/Ed pages?  Or are the years of practice in propaganda just too hard to shake so that it has to creep into every bloody article?  The only thing worth reading anymore at the Times is Krugman and occasionally Kristoff.  Everyone else needs to take Obama’s advice and “change!”  Pretty soon the only thing the paper will be good for is kindling.

Going after Gillibrand is just going to drive more readers away.  Give it up already.

For those of you who want to even the score, Gillibrand is now accepting donations for her Senate run.

312 Responses

  1. What in the world has happened to the NY Times?

    Bill Kristol writes a column about… whatever

    Ben Stein writes a column about economics

    The stock has been downgraded to junk

    And now this?

    I didn’t even touch MoDo’s puke-inducing diatribes.

    Are we witnessing the NYTimes’ slide down the greasy poll to oblivion?

    Boy I’m glad my only problem here in Berlin is today’s snow.

  2. An example of why the voters should have a “special election” when seats are left open. We would have screamed had it been Caroline as well. Inexperienced, unqualified, entitled.

    Allowing governors to pick the replacement only illustrates the teacher’s pet theory: who gets chosen clap the erasers at recess.

    I have no knowledge of Kristen Gillibrand or what she does or does not bring to the table. Between the Burris nomination and the NY debacle it leaves a sour taste in how politics work. Any “selection” based on the will of one person, namely the governor, is bound to raise objections.

    Unless and until the voters speak the rest is open to conjecture. As for the NYT, anything coming out of there is suspect. The mighty have fallen.

  3. I am a FIRM supporter of Comprhensive Immigration Reform. (aka McCain & Kennedy Bill, endorsed by Hillary)

    Comprehensive Immigration Bill wasn’t amnesty, but it certainly helped resolve the issue of American born children being deported and denied birth certificates and passports.

    It gave parents of American citizens who were here past their tourist visa expioration OR entered by crossing the border a timeframe to get their residency papers together.

    At least that way, people can come out of the shadows and get on the path to a legal standing in the US without denying their US Citizen children their human rights.

    Remember – that stuff takes years to process.

    I like Gillibrnad – I might not agree with her on EVERYTHING, but she’s experienced and capable of representing the state of NY.

  4. RD,

    Please don’t blame it on the baby boomers. I am almost exactly Hillary’s age. We baby boomers were the first to be rejected by the Obots. And Sultzberger is an old man. I don’t think he’s a baby boomer. As for Caroline, she is really too young to be a postwar child. I’m honestly offended to be blamed for this crap.

  5. I’m not only offended, I’m truly hurt.

  6. I’m sending Gillibrand some money right now.
    Go Kirsten!

    F*** the NY Times.
    Hope they fold.

  7. My generation fought the establishment, and we looked at JFK with clear eyes. The Camelot nonsense was no counterculture meme, believe me. I am actually in tears right now.

  8. BB, I don’t think it is true that it’s baby boomers upset over caroline. It’s all the Obamabots, because they know she was Obama’s choice, and when Obama doesn’t get his way there is a collective cry of waaaah that issues from Obotia.

    Because obviously. if you oppose the one you must be evil.

  9. I love this part:

    “Still, Ms. Gillibrand has not backed down from her long-standing opposition to “amnesty” for illegal immigrants, which has left some immigrant advocates wondering whether she would support any law that would establish a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants.”

    Um, there is a path for citizenship its called legally applying for citizenship. Millions do it each year.

  10. BB:

    😦

    You have a point to be upset, but the way I read RD’s post is the boomers at the NYT, not Boomers in general.

  11. MWB:

    First comes residency, then you wait 5 years, then citizenship.

    Residency can take anywhere from 8 months to 5 years.

  12. BB:

    CORRECTION:

    Rich, affluent Boomers at the NYT.

  13. Boomer: I am one year younger than Hillary, and I agree that we have taken a great deal of rejection. The scorn of the Obots (“I hate boomers! I can’t wait til they die!”) is particularly sad when you stop to think that it is because of us that they are not being involuntarily slaughtered in the Middle East today. We pushed an end to the draft, a beginning to civil rights and women’s rights, and I like to think that we are probably the Second Greatest Generation. Our generation was probably more aligned with RFK than JFK, if I were to generalize.

  14. sm77,

    Yes, but there is in fact a legal path to citizenship – the quote implies otherwise which is the point.

  15. SM: My concern with the latest citizenship attempt is that it won’t matter. Citizens demand a living wage, so employers will continue to hire the undocumented. We did this all 20 years ago, and slowly built up to where we are today. Indeed, we must do something for these poor people, but we must absolutely offer serious penalties to the employers who infract American law.

  16. From the post: The great heaving mass of aging Baby Boomers besotted with Camelot is going to hurl its ire at New York’s interim senator until she goes away, just like they did to Hillary Clinton. For all we know, Hillary’s ability to snag the Secretary of State position is driving them to these extremes. She eluded their grasp.

    When did baby boomers hate Hillary. We are the “old, bitter” ones who voted for her. I don’t see anything that limits the attack to people at the Times.

    One of the reasons I left DK was because of the irrational baby boomer hatred which was led by Obama himself. Now I’m getting it at The Confluence? I just can stand it. Sorry.

  17. I want to scream whenever I read anything from politicians or the press about immigration. I am a retired immigration attorney and I can promise you that RIGHT NOW, there is a path to citizenship for immigrants who qualify through a job or a legit marriage – or any other legally obtained green card basis – even asylum.

    And there has been a quasi-amnesty twice in recent history (15 years) with a short window opened when people here illegally could get on a legal path through jobs and marriage. It usually only lasts a few months, but the last time that happened (just before the Big Dawg left office) some of those people are still waiting to get their green cards. And it take 5 years from a job-based Green Card date to qualify to even file for citizenship (which, in some areas of the country can take 2 years or more). With a marriage based Green Card, it’s 3 years from the Green card date to file for citizenship.

    The problem is lack of personnel to move things through the pipeline (oh, there are plenty of other problems, too!).

  18. BB: It is unfortunate that I have to use generalities. There are exceptions to this rule, like yourself. And I was born at the tail end of the boom even though I didn’t benefit at all from it. My favorite band was the Eagles, not the Beatles or The Rolling Stones. But I think it is time we faced up to the fact that it was the older well off baby boomers with the means to do it who engineered the Obama win in order to make themselves civil rights heros. Nothing else was more important to them than getting an african american into office. It was one massive ego trip combined with mid-life crisis and nostalgia for the good old days of civil rights marches and bus trips to Georgia. The quality of the candidate was of no importance to them.
    Sorry, BB, but we must face up to this. And Pinch is not that old. He was born in 1951.

  19. Residency can take anywhere from 8 months to 5 years.

    Meanwhile they are supposed to give up the jobs they already are working and go back to wherever they came from (with their families) and wait.

    And the reality is that if we figured out a way to magically deport every single illegal in one day, the next day we would be desperately trying to get most of them back.

  20. SM,

    Rich and affluent is relevant. Generation is not. I have to leave now. I’m crying and I realize that is childish. But coming from Riverdaughter it really really hurts.

  21. RD,

    I didn’t benefit from anything either. I was born at the beginning of the baby boom. I grew up poor and by the time I was in my mid 20s, it was 1973, and it was very hard times. You are twisting the history, and it’s not fair. I’m am not the exception. Older people, male and female supported Hillary through the primaries and many of us refused to vote for Obama. Generalizing is not necessary and it confuses the issues.

  22. RD: As a boomer who came og age in the civil rights era in Georgia, I must hasten to add that there were not a whole lot of marches in Georgia. Perhaps you were thinking of Mississippi or Alabama. My high school desegregared my junior year in about 15 minutes. The bus pulled up, they said hey, we said hey and life went on.

  23. RD,

    Older, well off. That conflates two issues. Class is much more relevant. And furthermore, a lot of the people who keep being called boomers are quite a bit older than I am. I was born at the beginning of the baby boom. Gloria Steinem, for example is not a baby boomer. She is older than John McCain.

    RD, you do not have to use generational generalizations.

  24. ChatBlu:

    I’m not saying that I’m opposed to immigration laws being followed.

    But while all this anti-immigrant euphoria was being spewed by the Right, you have American children born on US soil being thrown in GITMO like rentetion centers and being denied the opportunity to get a birth certificate, or to be represented as a ward of the state, while their parents were being interrogated and sometimes tortured like they bombed the WTC. This is still happening and it HAS TO STOP.

    This is what I’m talking about, and this is what Comprehensive Immigration Reform Bill also covers.

    I am the daughter of Immigrants. I know the drill. My parents did follow the path to citizenship. It took them years to do it, but they did it.

  25. BB: It is not irrational baby boomer hatred. It is simply a fact that the people who moved Obama up in the queue were baby boomers. And the reason I think they chose him over Hillary is because of the very real conditioning of the baby boomers when they were younger. Civil rights came before women’s rights. Think about all of the activism of the 60’s. It was always about the war and civil rights and women were supposed to work on those issues, not their own. Then the 70’s came around, the war ended, apathy set in and women were left to fend for themselves. The real women’s movement flamed briefly and then sputtered out. It’s been a long hard slog but the people who were supposed to carry women forward, ie, the people between generations, like ME, didn’t do it. We thought we had achieved it all because there were no real barriers. The problem is it is still in the HEADS of the people who hold the power and those people are baby boomers.
    Don’t take this so personally, BB. They are called *boomers* for a reason. That reason is that there are so many more of them. And now, they are in charge of everything. We can’t blame my mother’s generation anymore. Their time and conservatism has passed. Now we have a different generation in charge and they put civil rights first.
    It is the baby boomers who are at fault and it is time that people who don’t think like them in the area of women’s rights step up and challenge them.

  26. We may never know the full and complete story surrounding this mess. But like it or not, Paterson could have put this to rest right from the beginning instead of stalling and playing games with the media.

    Some wish to credit him with “choosing” Gillibrand. If so, then he could have telegraphed that from the beginning instead of allowing this stupid soap opera to play out in the pages of the NYT and other rags who hopped on board. He may have had to choose her when Caroline withdrew, simple as that. He had little choice open to him by that time.

    But to applaud him for “heroics” is totally off the mark. She was unsuitable from the beginning and he could have displayed some backbone, some courage, some leadership by announcing his choice at the outset.

    Allowing this drama to play out daily and then crediting him with “giving her enough rope to hang herself” if true is unseemly. The damage was suffered by all concerned and to “impose a mantle of courage” on him is undeserved.

    If Gillibrand was such an outstanding candidate from the beginning then he should have said so and been done with it. She certainly did not attain that overnight.

    And if he was being “squeezed”, tough toenails. He is supposed to be a leader and so far that appears elusive. Finger pointing is all they have left and it is not attractive coming from either camp.

  27. RD writes: It was one massive ego trip combined with mid-life crisis and nostalgia for the good old days of civil rights marches and bus trips to Georgia.

    My generation was mostly too young to go down south to fight for civil rights. And I don’t think anyone went to Georgia. Mississipi, Alabama, is that what you meant? Those people were in an older generation than mine. I was in junior high then, and I am at the beginning of the baby boom.

    I am not an exception to other baby boomers. The people who are rich are exceptions. The great teeming mass of baby boomers (like all Americans) are not in the top 1%, or the top 10%. You can’t possibly believe that.

  28. SM: One of my friends is married to a Honduran. He stood in line at Immigration for years and years and years. We celebrated his citizenship long and loud. We are all the sons and daughters of immigrants. My mother’s family has been here for centuries, my fathers grandparents were Canadian from Prince Edward Is. There are clear moral issues involved in the status of these children that are not goin g to be easily solved. If we grant them all citizenship, what is the next solution when, ten years from now, we do this all over again? Damned if I know.

  29. BB: I stand with this argument. It explains a lot of what happened last year. Just because there are some of us who are ahead of our time doesn’t mean we can excuse the actions of the generation who brought us Obama.
    I don’t hate them. But I do hold them responsible.

  30. Could I be released from moderation?

  31. RD, I think you are wrong to blame the entire generation. There are bad actors who are baby boomers, but there are also people like favreau and a lot of 20 somethings who think they know everything because they can twitter and flikr.

    I’ve noticed that when someone calls you out for something, you can never admit you might be wrong. I’m not sure if its a character flaw or what, but you are definitely wrong on this one.

  32. RD,

    The Civil rights movement began in the ’50s. The women’s movement began when I was in 9th grade. That is when Betty Friedan’s book came out. My generation fought for birth control and abortion rights. I am taking it personally, for the reasons I gave above. Because it is an unfair generalization coming from *you.* I was driven out of DK by the boomer hatred. The mass of Obama supporters are no my age. They just aren’t. I give up, because you obviously aren’t even listening to me. I’m so sorry this happened.

    I’m not the type to flounce off in anger. I’m much to grown up. But I do feel terribly hurt. I know what my life has been. I know the history. And you just have it wrong.

  33. Oh, it’s not just the NY Times and not just Gillibrand. The Kennedy vendetta is in force today as Paterson is portrayed in the NY Post as Pinnochio and in AM NY under a huge hammer under the headline “NAILED”
    Teddy is throwing a tantrum of the l980 size and the media is there to broadcast it for him.
    http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/we-were-promissed-a-vendetta-and-were-getting-it-teds-tantrum/

  34. I agree with BB, this is too much of a generalization. Obama may have been introduced to us by boomers, and presented by boomers, but I saw many more Gen X Obama supporters than boomers. I have read so many references that most PUMA’s are, indeed, female boomers and to now say that boomers are responsible for the mess that is Obama is just a bit over the top.

  35. Then you are holding *me* responsible, RD. I am not anything resembling an exception for my age group.

  36. And its NOT true that Boomers elected Obama. Boomers voted for Hillary in much larger numbers than Obama. It was black people and young voters that went for him in the primary.

    Will you now write a piece condemning Blacks for giving us Obama?

  37. My mom was born in 1951. Her main issue was the war in Vietnam. She was tear gassed, jailed, beaten. She marched on Washington. She married my dad when she was 20 (when I was born in 1971), divorced him when she was 23 and married by step dad when she was 25. My step-dad is a Vietnam vet. The womens’ agenda was not really her thing.

    My mom voted for Obama. Her reason: war, war, war. She would have voted for Hillary and did vote for Hillary in the primary but could not bring herself to vote for McCain and could not “risk” voting third party.

    We have had many, many fights about womens’ equality. Mostly involving me yelling at her to get off her ass.

  38. […] NY Times , is attacking not-Caroline to complete the fury. […]

  39. BB: There are class issues. That’s absolutely true. But think of the people who are writing for the papers right now, the Frank Rich’s, Maureen Dowd’s, Gail Collins.
    I don’t know how many went to Georgia. But see, here’s a thing you remember much better than I did. I was only aware of it when I saw Mississippi Burning. I was too young to remember. For me, civil rights and the feminist movement are all one thing. They happened one right after another. But for people like my aunts, who are your age, there was never a question of what they were going to do with their lives. They were to marry and have someone take care of them. Or they became secretaries, bookeepers or teachers. That is how they grew up. By the time feminism hit, it was already too late for them at least in their heads. But the civil rights struggle was a different thing altogether.
    Yes, class has a lot to do with what is happening to Gillibrand. There’s no doubt about it. But Obama’s win strengthened the media. They started out on a liberal crusade to socially engineer the WH for race and they can’t stop flexing their muscles in order to recapture their lost youth with Caroline Kennedy.
    Seriously, BB, why Kennedy? Why not some other rich socialite like Lady De Rothschild? Why not some other snob from the upper east side? It had to be Kennedy why?
    When you can honestly answer that it is all about class and nothing to do with nostalgia, let me know.

  40. RD: When I was in college, there was exactly (1) female in our vet school, (4) in our law school, and (5) in our medical school. I would say that we worked long and hard on women’s rights. (Did I mention that one of my sorority sisters argued Roe v. Wade?) Our daughters, however, have truly dropped the ball. They cannot imagine a pre-Roe world, they cannot imagine being “quota-d” into the schoolo of their choice. They grew up in the days of affirm,ative action. My daugter, in fact, advised me that it was the fault of the boomers that women were now required to work outside of the home as well as inside of the home,. I told her, that as the Sr. Business Analyst of a leading firm she had no right to complain to me, a membver of a generation advised to choose between nursing, teaching, and home ec, and if she wanted further change to get moving. The third wave of feminism was truly a failure to launch.

  41. BB: I do think there are a significant number of exceptions in the boomer generation and I think you are one of them.

  42. Chatblu:

    It’s not a MORAL issue when U.S. – AMERICAN – children are being deported and denied the right to a birth certificate and protection from the country they were born in. They are being denied their constitutional rights as Americans! Born on US soil!

    Rhetorical questions:
    – Does having an illegal immigrant parent not make them “American” even though they were born here in the US?
    – If so, is it because most illegal immigrants are Hispanic/Latino?

    Comprehensive Immigration allows the parent, I think it’s 2 years to apply for Residency, pay back taxes & Social Security if they were working under the table and get them on the path to legalized residency in the US.

    It also protects the rights of the AMERICAN CITIZEN, aka the child, born here.

    THAT”s what I’d like to see happen. Citizenship isn’t granted by a drop of the hat, or a wave of a Federal Judge’s pen, it’s a LONG and very expensive process.

  43. I fail to understand why this generational argument is even relevant. Why is it important to blame a generation. The issue is class, not race, not gender, and not generation. I stand by my arguments too. I love you, RD, but you’re just wrong on this one.

    I’d love to see how you think people like me benefited from anything. After 1963, my generation had a terrible war to deal with. That was a blight on my youth. Then came Nixon and out-of-control inflation, followed by the Reagan Revolution. Sure some baby boomers are rich. They are the ones who were born to rich parents, like Bill Ayers and Bernadine Dohrn. Most of us have struggled our whole lives, we voted against Obama and for Hillary and now we are blamed for Obama and Caroline Kennedy. No. I won’t accept that blame.

  44. RD,

    OK, can you provide statistics to show that the great teeming majority of baby boomers are affluent, powerful members of the ruling class? I’ll gladly look at them.

  45. What do we mean when we say “baby boomer?”

    White, college-educated and affluent? That description is a minority of the baby-boom generation.

    Most boomers didn’t go to college and are not affluent. Many of the better known leaders of the 60’s (Abbie Hoffman, William Ayers, Gloria Steinem) aren’t boomers. The “Freedom Riders” weren’t boomers either.

    The first boomers didn’t turn 18 until 1964. That last ones turned 18 in 1982.

    While many of the people that pushed Obama on us might be boomers, they don’t represent the majority of us.

  46. I keep forgetting why I stayed away from this place since the election.

    It’s much more important to be part of the Corrente crowd than to treat your readers with respect.

    See y’all.

  47. Obama was elected by the media along with the AAs, the stupid stupids, the latte drinking elites, the Hillary haters, the GOP who hated their own candidate, Bush fatigue, the uninformed, the DNC, and I am sure a few Baby Boomers here and there. These people are known as Obots.

    Carving out one group as “responsible” is not.

  48. I am in the second year of the baby boom, and in 1964 I was 16.

  49. BB: I do think there are a significant number of exceptions in the boomer generation and I think you are one of them.

    You have no self awareness do you?

  50. What is with Spammy today?

  51. SM: Is not morality a major part of the rule of law?

  52. great teeming majority of baby boomers

    There ain’t no such animal.

    Boomers share one thing and one thing only – an age demographic. And that isn’t even monolithic. Some of the oldest boomers are the parents of the youngest.

  53. Mawm: I think you are misunderstanding the point I am trying to make about the media. It is the media I am criticising as having a surplus of aging baby boomers who saw Obama’s candidacy as a chance to relive their youth and do some social engineering. That is my point. Now that they have done it, they are re-energized as we suspected would happen. The media did a lot of the heavy lifting for Obama and now they call the shots. They took down Hillary and now they are gunning for Gillibrand. They are like a Frankenstein’s monster and they don’t realize how damaging their actions are to women because they never identified with the women’s movement. For them, the civil rights movement and the Viet Nam war were the dominant issues. The election last year gave them the perfect opportunity to fight those issues all over again.
    Look, it is not a pleasant reality for some baby boomers who never sold out their consciences but it is what happened.
    It has nothing to do with the average voter who were overwhelmed with a tsunami of media generated Obama love.

  54. I’m a Generation Xer that supported Hillary – and Xrs, generation Y-rs Millenials who FORCED their Boomer parents to jump on the Obama wagon – if not they were old and icky.

    I think Rich, Affluent Boomers AT THE NYT and other MSM vehicles are the ones to blame, just like they held their flags for Bush, now it has a big “O” on it.

    But certainly not Boomers across the board – and as a Gen-X PUMA I can attest to that.

  55. It’s much more important to be part of the Corrente crowd

    You haven’t been paying attention lately if you think that’s true.

    We’ve been all but openly feuding with them.

  56. Generalizations often hurt. I am from the south and I can tell you right now, we are not all, the evil confederate flag waving, daisy duke wearing idiots we are made out to be. It was 1964 when my school was desegregated and I remember no incidents, none.

    Generalizations are what brought many of us here to the Confluence. One for example, is that if we don’t like Obama, it must be because he is black, therefore we are r@cist. That is completely and wholly untrue.

    Baby boomers are not responsible for Obama.

  57. RD,

    I don’t remember a lot of the Civil Rights movement. I read history though. I was a little kid in the 1950s. What I remember most clearly is fighting for my rights as a woman, and even then the leaders of the women’s movement were not in my generation. They were a lot older–Betty Friedan, Gloria Steinem, etc. The leaders of the antiwar generation, as myiq pointed out, were in an older generation than mine. In 1967, I was 19.

    And no, I’m simply not an exception for my generation. Like most of us, I grew up in an upwardly mobile home and ended up not being able to buy a house and support a familiy like my parents did. I am the generation that came of age during the hard years of Nixon and Reagan. We are the ones who are now caring for our parents and our children, if we could afford to have them–which I couldn’t. We have never had it easy, despite any media generalizations you have heard. We deserve just a tiny bit of respect.

  58. And my generation was not in love with the Kennedys either. Sorry, not true. We lived the real thing, not the myth.

  59. Mawm?? Self-awareness? Because I am differentiating between the baby boomers who call the shots in the media and BostonBoomer, who is a baby boomer and doesn’t act like Maureen Dowd? It takes a lot of effort and courage to overcome social conditioning and many boomers did it. But not the ones in the media, mawm. They have stuck to very traditional gender roles while they have progressed on the civil rights front. Look at how many female columnists we have in the papers of record. There are precious few. There’s a data point right there. How many women have their own talking heads programs? There’s another. The opinion makers and shakers are overwhelmingly male. Should we be surprised that they forced Obama down our throats?

  60. Until we stop letting Paterson off the hook, as he had the final say all along, we will forever be running in circles. Had he made a surgical cut from the beginning it would have saved us from reams of angst.

    In wanting to “make his bones” he allowed this to be dragged out to the point where it has become almost comical if it weren’t so absurd. He had one duty to perform and he did so ineptly. Thus, this mess.

  61. ChatBlu:

    Morality, yeah, but I’m talking about how these US-born children are being denied their Constitutional Rights as Americans.

  62. Hmmmmm. As a Gen Xer, I’m not sure why I get why this is such a big deal. I know I’m going to need to don an asbestos suit to say this, but weren’t y’all the ones that brought us Ronald Reagan – and gave rise to a whole bunch of me-firstism mentality that’s now led to any number of problems we’re now facing in society? Yeah, I get it that a lot of folks marched for civil rights – I live in Nashville, there’s no avoiding the subject, not that I want to – but I simply don’t see the baby boom as a great shining wave of warriors for moral superiority, and I think the piling on RD for this is a bit much. Sure, maybe she could have chosen her words more carefully – personally, I believe it’s the ruling class of which Obama is a firm part that did this to us, and it has nothing to do with generation. But YMMV.

    Also – we think it’s OK for folks to be allowed to come here illegally, have children, and then use those children to hopscotch past folks who have applied properly and are following the legal process to become citizens without flagrantly violating U.S. law? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

    Man. Talk about having trouble reading stuff lately – first myIQ gets completely flamed for making points that seem reasonable and now RD is on fire for having pointed out that there are moneyed, powerful people out to get a woman who’s obviously more than qualified to serve as Senator?

    I’m just not sure what demographic is hanging around here reading and posting lately. It doesn’t seem to be one that’s very practical-minded, in my view.

  63. RD:

    It is the media I am criticising as having a surplus of aging baby boomers who saw Obama’s candidacy as a chance to relive their youth and do some social engineering. That is my point.

    Then why not simply say that? And add that these media are wealthy elites who are EXCEPTIONS to the typical baby boomers.

    And once you recognize that you have to see that generation is just a confound here. It is an extraneous variable that doesn’t explain the results. It fogs them.

  64. Off topic, sorry…but

    Take Action: Call Your Representative about the House Vote on the “Stimulus Package” Today! (Info on the Bill, Including ACORN, too)

    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/2009/01/28/take-action-call-your-representative-about-the-house-vote-on-the-stimulus-package-today/

    Toll-free nos. provided with links to background info…the ACORN $$ alone should get you going!

    OK, so it will pass…but it’s a matter of SELF-RESPECT and going on the record so at least they know SOMEONE is watching!!!!!

  65. SM: The children, indeed, are American citizens under the constitution. And their parents are what? Do we allow everyone who has a child in America to become a citizen? Do we keep the baby here and deport the parents? Do we deport the baby with his vaid birth certificate? The law really is not clear on this. Thus, this is where morality comes in.

  66. Also – we think it’s OK for folks to be allowed to come here illegally, have children, and then use those children to hopscotch past folks who have applied properly and are following the legal process to become citizens without flagrantly violating U.S. law? Or am I misunderstanding something here?

    Eleanor Rodham A:

    Absolutely not, the process will remain as is is set up – but at least those kids will be guaranteed their rights as US Born Citizens as opposed to being thrown in Detention camps just because their parents are illegal immigrants and brown.

  67. But not the ones in the media

    Do you really think it was the bloviating gasbags themselves that decided to support Obama and destroy all of his opponents?

    They were doing what they were told to do by the people who pay their salaries.

  68. BB: Those little girls who died in Alabama were bombed in the 60s. MLK Jr. marched on Washington in the 60s. Mississippi Burning events? 1964. Watts riots, 60’s. Civil Rights legislation passed, 60s.
    Women’s lib? 1970.
    The 60’s were civil rights and the war.
    BB, why are you so offended by this? It’s like you are trying really hard to say, “No, no, no, boomers are completely innocent of shivving Hillary Clinton in order to socially engineer Obama into the White House.”
    Do you honestly believe that?
    The ruling class *does* consist of baby boomers. It has to because they are now the ones in upper management due to their age and experience.

  69. about Pinch Sulzberger-he was not simply a babyboomer (born 1951), he was also a son and grandson of previous publishers and chairmen of the NY Times.

    Arthur Ochs “Punch” Sulzberger (b. February 5, 1926 New York City) to a prominent Jewish media and publishing family, is himself an American publisher and businessman. He succeeded his father, Arthur Hays Sulzberger, and maternal grandfather as publisher and chairman of the New York Times in 1963, passing the positions to his son Arthur Ochs Sulzberger Jr. in 1992. wiki

    Like some other newspaper companies, including The Washington Post Co., the Times Co. is publicly traded but privately controlled through family-held shares of super-voting stock. In the case of the Times Co., the Ochs-Sulzberger family holds the controlling votes.

    Mexican Billionaire Gives Loan to New York Times Co.
    http://tinyurl.com/dbwes2

    ITA with BB.

  70. self-awareness because I bet you didn’t realize how condescending it was.

  71. Well, as a fellow boomer who is bb’s age, I do have to agree with what she’s saying. Civil rights was not the issue for my particular segment of the boom–it was women’s rights. Vietnam was also a big issue, naturally, because so many of our friends were enlisting rather than being drafted. However, that cut several ways. Many of my acquaintances were joining the Peace Corps and, if anything, we were the anti-war generation rather than the civil rights generation.

    As to the NY Times, I just think they’ve become the New York City Times. They push their own. I haven’t noticed that their articles exactly represent the interests of Upstate NY (and I went to university in Upstate, although in those days the residents were pretty blue collar, since there were employers like Kodak, Carrier, Corning, etc to provide jobs).

  72. Eleanor: No, my generation did not give you Nixon. My parents generation, the Greatest Generation, longed for the good ol’days of Eisenhower (“he kepy us out of war, ya know”) and put a Republican back in office. Reagan was actually a rebound of anti-civil rights feeling.

  73. first myIQ gets completely flamed and now RD is on fire

    It’s her turn. You want to take tommorrow’s shift?

  74. Chatblu:

    AGAIN, the Comprehensive Immigration Bill covers all this. They give the parent up to 2 years to apply for Residency, catch up Social Security & back taxes if applicable, pay the fine (which can be in the thousands of dollars), make sure they did not break any other laws in the process (if not then they’ll be deprted no ifs, ands or buts) and then they can place their application in for Residency.

    In 5 yrs, if they meet the qualifying criteria to subit an application for US citizenship, then they can do that too, or stay as a US Legal Resident.

  75. Exactly BB. Criticize the media, not the age bracket of that media.

  76. Eleanor,

    No, a generation did not bring us Ronald Reagan. Seriously, are you saying I am responsible for Ronald Reagan? This is the kind of generational division that first turned me off to Obama and eventually let me to The Confluence. Now I’m getting it here. I think your comment may just be the final straw for me on this subject. No. You. Are. Wrong. And division by race, age, gender, choice of sexual partners, or generation is not in any way, shape, or form productive or useful. I’ll stand by that statement till my dying day.

  77. It’s good to see the smashing of some baby boomer stereotypes.

    We weren’t all college-educated self-important types who turned into yuppies.

    And we DIDn’t all vote for Obama. He did not get the majority of the vote either from the 45-59 age group or those over 60.
    My goodness, you could actually look that up.

    Another thing -the number of people voting was way up – but not the percentage of eligible voters voting.
    The trouble with looking things up is that your favorite stereotype might lose some credibility.

  78. I wish it were possible to offer a soothing cup of coffee to everyone this morning. It pains me deeply to see us attacking one another. Very painful.

  79. Please get my comment out of moderation-!!!!

  80. Pat,

    Who did I attack? I am defending myself and the history of my own life!

  81. myiq: It was a combination of events. But yes, I think the media jumped onboard largely of their own accord. I think Chris Matthews never would have supported Hillary Clinton and it is through his own candid words that I believe that. But even Jack Welch couldn’t have stopped him from going with Obama.
    AND we saw the same thing happen in the RBC hearing. Same phenomenon. It was all about social engineering for our own good. We have discussed this before and no one had a problem with it. But stick a generational lable on it, and I challenge you to find RBC members who weren’t boomers, and suddenly no one believes anymore that that was the plan? Nonsense.

  82. bb: Not you. Just the tone. As with you, I have tears in my eyes.

  83. {{softly sobbing, heart truly broken}}

  84. Civil rights was not the issue for my particular segment of the boom

    By the time I turned 18 all the good stuff was over.

    We had Disco

  85. SM: Yes, the CIB covers all of this. What becomes of their American citizen children if Mon and Dad flub the criteria? What then? Are we not still depriving them of their inalienable rtights? Truth be told, Mom and Dad broke any number of laws by working here illegally. Do we then quantify laws broken into violent/non-violent? There’s a lot to be worked out yet, and I sublit that morality plays a role.

  86. BB: Here’s the thing, I don’t know why you are being so defensive? Is it because you identify so closely with your generation that you are confusing your own actions and beliefs with the actions and beliefs of the people in charge of the media?

  87. If Gillibrand had spoken even one word against Hillary at any time, the NYT would be laying out a red carpet for her. And that exact same article would have been written, only tinged with admiration for her “independence”.

  88. SM: Perhaps Immigration will be the centerpiece of your generation. Then genertaions to follow can review (in the nicest possible way, of course) what you have done for better or for bitter.

  89. I challenge you to find RBC members who weren’t boomers

    There is a difference between saying “The people who did it are boomers” and “The boomers are the people who did it.”

  90. myiq: LOL! Yep, and really bad clothes. We missed Woodstock and love beads. We got stuck with Seasons in the Sun and Smiley face sweatshirts.
    How depressing.

  91. “I challenge you to find RBC members who weren’t boomers.”

    I guess we could look that up, but why is it relevant? Is their age group *really* the most important variable? Or is it that they were party insiders and part of the power structure, and incidentally wealthier than most?

    You of all people, RD–a scientist–should be able to understand that correlation is not causation and that generation is not the relevant variable here. It is a confounding variable.

  92. Myiq,

    What was this supposed “good stuff?” The draft? Vietnam? No birth control or abortion? Women only accepted in only a few kinds of jobs? Women not welcome in many top colleges? What was this “good stuff?”

  93. BB: it can’t be helped. Generational stereotypes exist b/c one generation always resents the previous generation for NOT doing something, and resents the successor generation for reaping the benefit of their sacrifice with no gratitude or understanding.

    I got it in law school. My female law professors put me through the ringer b/c they had it so hard. My family law professor was a tyrant. She was the only woman in her law school graduating class.

    I got it at the law firm from women partners and senior associates who put me through the ringer b/c they had it so hard fighting their way in and to partnership level.

    Now, I have serious issues with the lawyers entering the work place, especially the women who think that they will never have to make a sacrifice to make partner and still have a family and never lose stride. It won’t happen, but they feel entitled to it. When reality sets in they get mad at ME for not paving the way for them.

    It’s not productive but it is reality.

  94. Allow me to repeat myself:

    Obama was elected by the media along with the AAs, the stupid stupids, the latte drinking elites, the Hillary haters, the GOP who hated their own candidate, Bush fatigue, the uninformed, the DNC, and I am sure a few Baby Boomers here and there. These people are known as Obots.

    Carving out one group as “responsible” is not.

  95. PJ – You said this about Paterson:

    But to applaud him for “heroics” is totally off the mark. She was unsuitable from the beginning and he could have displayed some backbone, some courage, some leadership by announcing his choice at the outset.

    He could not do that because Hillary had not been confirmed. He did not want to make his choice public until then, which I suspect were the wishes of Hillary and Chuck Schumer.

    As a New Yorker, I think he handled the pressure very well. He never tipped his hand until Kennedy was forced out, then he slid Gillibrand in there when his enemies were still in shock.

    IMHO.

  96. Myiq: Then the people who did it are boomers. Sorry if that is offensive but that’s the truth. Not all of them were boomers but the ones who called the shots last year and decided it would be Obama and not Hillary were boomers.

  97. There will soon be another divisive issue on the blogs: the employed versus the unemployed.

    This election cycle was a Cuisanart.

  98. Chatblu:

    Guarantee that the child at least has their social security card, birth certificate and/or a passport to establish their identity and nationality.

    Give the parent the option of making a sort of “Sophie Choice” – either having them stay here in the US with a legal guardian or live as a US Citizen abroad in the parent’s country of origin.

    That’s a beginning.

  99. Myiq,

    There is a difference between saying “The people who did it are boomers” and “The boomers are the people who did it.”

    I’d like to see some evidence that the people who pushed Obama are mostly boomers. Obama was the Wall Street candidate. I think Wall Street is populated with quite a lot of “Millenials” and “Gen X-ers.”

  100. about Pinch Sulzberger-he was not simply a babyboomer (born 1951), he was also a son and grandson of previous publishers and chairmen of the NY Times.

    The Times Co. is publicly traded but privately controlled through family-held shares of super-voting stock. In the case of the Times Co., the Ochs-Sulzberger family holds the controlling votes.

    Are we complaining about Baby-boomers or about dying-out dynasties? (perpetuated thru elite schools)

  101. RD,

    I’m begging you. Please explain why generation is the most important factor for you here? It just doesn’t make sense to me.

  102. Good point, myiq. While all poodles are dogs, all dogs are not poodles. I do not accept the actions of the RBC. I do not refute the good done by my generation.
    Bboomer: You are correct. When I applied to my state university, I was quota-d in by both gender and religion. Females made up 1/3 of each class. My grades and Sats needed to be 15-25% higher than a males. I cannot imagine what it took to get that 1 female into the vet school. I lost a sorority sister to a back street abortion. Ah, those were the good ol’ days.

  103. Chatblu:

    I’m a Gen Xer. Global Warming is the centerpiece of our generation.

    By the time we’re 50-60, we’ll all be living in stilt houses or underground, IF we don’t end up blowing up the planet before then.

  104. Myiq: Then the people who did it are boomers. Sorry if that is offensive but that’s the truth. Not all of them were boomers but the ones who called the shots last year and decided it would be Obama and not Hillary were boomers.

    I agree RD!
    Poor Gillibrand. Let’s just hope she has rhino skin.

  105. And I have to agree that blaming generations is not productive. I don’t see why we have to engage in it.

  106. Micki,

    I disagree. It can be helped. At The Confluence we have always prided ourselves on seeing clearly through the B.S. We don’t have to be like the women who gave you a hard time. I will not accept that.

  107. BB: When we look back on the history of this past election year, we will have to come up with some explanation as to why Obama was selected to be the nominee. We can put a few things on the table right now: 1.) very wealthy people wanted a weak executive 2.) they manipulated an American narrative that was ripe for the picking- evening the score on civil rights and 3.) they had a lot of boomer generation people in positions of power who were conditioned to consider civil rights as *the* most important struggle of their generation. It was a perfect storm.

  108. I agree with you, madamab.

  109. I like Paterson. I don’t think he is perfect, but he does what he can.

  110. SM: Fair enough. The Sophie choice would be a good start. We can establish the citizenship of the child and move forward from that point.

  111. RD, I was just wondering if one could call Obama’s backers baby-boomers. I just did a check on Wikipedia to see when the first ones which came into my mind were born.

    Apart from Axelrod (born 1955) and and Brazile 1959, all the others were born during the 1920s (Zbigniew Kazimierz Brzezinski 1928, Jimmy Carter 1924); 1930s (George Soros 1930,Ted Kennedy 1932, Harry Reid 1939); 1940s (NancyPelosi 1940, Richard M Daley 1942, Ayers1944, Dean 1948, Kerry 1943).

    Last but not least, there is Colin Powell born 1937.

  112. “The great heaving mass of aging Baby Boomers besotted with Camelot is going to hurl its ire at New York’s interim senator until she goes away, just like they did to Hillary Clinton. ”

    this seems to be one brutal and ugly generalization.
    And it’s untrue.

  113. Hmmmm. Baby boomers had nothing to do with Reagan, you say? So how come the largest percentage of people who voted for him were between 30 and 50 years old in 1984 – which makes them born between 1934 and 1954? Nineteen of those years, between 1945 and 1954, are considered to have been years of birth for the baby boom.

    http://www.ropercenter.uconn.edu/elections/how_groups_voted/voted_84.html

    I’ll grant you a better group of statistics would break out the baby boom by itself, but I have something to do today and can’t spend time mega-Googling.

    SM – I get what you’re saying, and since I don’t know a lot about how immigration policy is set up right now I’m gonna shut my piehole. I will say this, though: I don’t think illegals should be jumped ahead of other people who have applied for citizenship properly simply because they’ve come here to have children. I think the fact that an illegal has a child here should be considered one factor, along with many others.

    Anyone who thinks this is too tough should have a look at the immigration policies of Australia and Great Britain for comparison. Australia actually does put folks who arrive illegally by boat into detention.

  114. No one generation is responsible. I feel ashamed of my generation, because they were willingly manipulated by stagecraft and superficially succumbed to a corporate campaign.

  115. SM: My daughter is also an x-er who feels that recycling will be her legacy. While I do recycle religiously, is that all there is?

  116. RD:

    Fourth Reason: Destroying the New Deal.
    Fifth Reason: Keeping the patriarchy in control.

    Hillary would not have allowed either of those two things to happen.

    I don’t think the powers-that-be gave a rat’s *ss what color Obama’s skin is. I think they cared about getting, and keeping their power and control.

    That’s where I’m coming from.

  117. RD said: The ruling class *does* consist of baby boomers. It has to because they are now the ones in upper management due to their age and experience.

    And the “opposition class” also consists of boomers. (I’m guessing more, but don’t have time to get data.) I think the point BB is making is that you are blaming a generation when generation was not the differentiating factor. If that is indeed her point, I agree with it. Class and perceived class are far more differentiating factors.

    Obama came out against boomers. Bitter dead end postmenopausal women, by definition, are likely boomers.

  118. I guess I’m in permanent moderation.

    {{{bb}}}

  119. Whoops. Nine years, not nineteen. Sorry for the error. It’s still half of the demographic I’ve linked above. Wish I had time to Google for better data, but holding Boomers entirely blameless for Reagan simply doesn’t fly in my world.

  120. madamab: If anyone thinks I am going to retract or edit my post today because I have now been made to feel guilty for blaming a generation, they are sadly mistaken. I am trashing a group of people who are that generation’s representatives in very high profile positions of power who were able to manipulate the narrative to satisfy their own desires for social engineering.
    As a member of the boomers, I don’t feel like boomers are completely to blame for all of the ills in the world. But for this past primary season selection? Yeah, no doubt about it. They had a HUGE hand in that.

  121. Perhaps I am a little harsh in my take on Paterson but it rests with wanting someone to actually “lead” for a change. All I see are syncophants and careerists consumed with their own destiny and more invested in the outcome for their own aggrandizement.

    Just once I would love to see somebody step to the plate with a fistful of guts and say what needs to be said without casting an eye on the next election.

    You would think by now I would be less and idealist but I guess it still resonates somewhere within

  122. Eleanor: Recalculate. 9, not 19, of those years were boomer times. Sorry, but I’m not prepared to shoulder the blame for the Gipper years.

  123. You’re right, isis. I’m certainly not holding Gen X blameless for anything, since we just did a lot to install Precious.

    But! In general I agree with madamab – it’s the ruling class we should be criticizing here, not spinning our wheels trying to generalize about people based on year of birth.

    I’m off. It’s been interesting, sincerely. See y’all later.

  124. madamab – This is a great summary:

    Fourth Reason: Destroying the New Deal.
    Fifth Reason: Keeping the patriarchy in control.

    Hillary would not have allowed either of those two things to happen.

    I totally agree with you.

  125. I didn’t think that I could have more respect for this site! Searing relevant conversation almost 24/7. Thank goodness it’s not always “searing” and that there’s plenty of levity mixed in.

    To quote, you, RD:

    “I am never disappointed when I come home and read the posts. And we all come from different POV but there is something underneath it all that keeps it together. It is like a safety net of sorts. We are the common man/woman, working class, as is everyone not making millions of dollars a year, struggling to make a living for ourselves while being compassionate to the people around us.
    I LOVE this place.”

    Question. Had we a 51 Percent (or even 30) would it have made a difference. Is it bigger on boomer (I’m one) or bigger on patriarchy?

  126. RD – I don’t know if anyone thinks that. But I do think it might be nice if you apologized to BB.

    And I think it’s all right for people to disagree with your premise.

    Just a thought.

  127. Eleanor,

    For God sakes! When did I say baby boomers had nothing to do with Reagan? My point is that generation is not the deciding factor. I can’t deal with arguing with you right now. I’m sick and tired of being blamed for everything. I really am.

  128. Sophie: Obama did not come out against boomers. he came out against women. Old women, young women, short women, fat women. Was Sarah Palin a boomer? According to her birth date, no. And neither is Gillibrand. What about the women who were not appointed to Obama’s cabinet? There are plenty of qualified non-boomer women out there for him to choose from.

    And once again, I am not apologizing for blaming a generation.

  129. RD:

    Fourth Reason: Destroying the New Deal.
    Fifth Reason: Keeping the patriarchy in control.

    Hillary would not have allowed either of those two things to happen.

    I don’t think the powers-that-be gave a rat’s *ss what color Obama’s skin is. I think they cared about getting, and keeping their power and control.

    That’s where I’m coming from.

    I agree with you madamab. The color of his skin was their cover for pushing a weak candidate that they could control and/or manipulate. Despite the peddling in the Press, I don’t believe Obama’s life is actually in danger until his ego makes him decide he is actually the one in charge which, given his personality, he is likely want to do, considering his arrogance.

    When that happens, and Wal Street decides he is out of control, I fear for the lives of his family.

  130. I think I’ll go and knit for a while.

  131. Chatblu:

    That’s IF the parent committed a felony – which is so far (to my knowledge) what the Immigration Bill states. If they have a parking ticket, is that reason for deportation? No. Theft, Arson, Murder, Domestic Abuse, and other serious crimes? Yes.

    I just find it unacceptable that US born citizens are not being guaranteed their certain and inalienable rights as per the Constitution and the Bill of Rights.

    Hillary made an excellent case about it during the debates and I agree with her 1000%.

  132. BB: No, T.C. doesn’t have to be like the women who gave me a hard time, nor do I have to give the Net-Geners a hard time.

    But I think generational resentment is deeply rooted. I agree with madamab that we don’t have to engage in it, but I also agree with RD that if we don’t acknowledge it, we can’t eradicate it.

  133. madamab,

    Thank you, but I don’t need an apology. I’m not asking RD to edit anything either. I’m simply trying to make the point that blaming a generation of people for anything doesn’t make sense. I think there are far more important, relevant factors.

    I fail to see how sweeping generalizations of this kind are either useful or relevant. That’s my position. I certainly hope I have a right to argue my position here though.

  134. OY! Rd, can you pull me outta moderation?

  135. Madamab: Apologize for what? BB has always had a sensitivity about the boomers. That does not mean that they are blameless in everything. They are in charge of everything right now. They have to bear some of the responsibility for what happens in the country. They aren’t at fault for every damn thing but they do have an effect on politics. They’re impact is quite substantial.
    I’m not apologizing. You’d think I just dropped a nuclear bomb on anyone born after 1945. A little perspective is in order before everyone goes away from this post insulted, including me.

  136. RD: Are you sure? My parents felt that if we only got haircuts, the ills of the world would change. My daughter feels that I’ve messed up my gender by ascertaining that we could make more money while running a household. I’m used to generational excoriation up to a point, but it’s hard to believe we are responsible for civil rights,noit enough equal rights, and the election of Reagan concommitantly. Ans no, I do not expect an apology from you for expressing your feelings. I certainly hope that you are not anticipating one from me for a full-throated defense of s group of women who did the best that they could to make change in turbulent times.

  137. Micki,

    Is there something in the post about eradicating generational resentment? I missed that. Could you please point me to the quote? Or was it somewhere else in a comment? Thanks!

  138. I thought we were almost always in agreement that party elites were responsible for the coronation of “O”? I have always felt that the moving force behind Obama was Ted Kennedy and he is not a boomer.

  139. It remains my position that it cannot be eradicated. Its a societal ill.

  140. RD 10.22am 3.) they had a lot of boomer generation people in positions of power who were conditioned to consider civil rights as *the* most important struggle of their generation. It was a perfect storm.

    I think that more than the generation that actually lived thru the tragedy of MLK’s death (I remember as a teenager, writing a letter to his widow, and getting a reply back), that there was a strongly romanticized version of the civil rights movement which emerged during the late eighties and influenced younger people.

    and other films were in fact criticized
    at the time as fictionalizing history.

    The film has been criticized by many, including historian Howard Zinn, for its fictionalization of history. According to Zinn: while FBI agents are portrayed as heroes who descend upon the town by the hundreds, in reality the FBI and the Justice Department only reluctantly protected civil rights workers and protesters and reportedly witnessed beatings without intervening.[1] It was also criticized due to its portrayal of southern African-Americans as passive victims. New York Times film reviewer wrote that the film’s alleged distortions amounted to a “cinematic lynching” of history.

    wiki

  141. I’m an early boomer, surrounded by boomers in my
    geographical area. These are artists, lefties, all with
    history of some kind of rebellion in the 60’s and 70’s.
    My BF is younger than I am, born in the early 50’s.
    The question of what has possessed these people to
    go so off the deep end in becoming Obots has been
    puzzling me since this all started. And my BF makes a
    point of informing me that “everyone” he knows is
    still thrilled with Obama.
    Though my few closest friends were Hillary supporters,
    that changed partly with O’s nomination. I’ve been afraid
    to really venture out and check out the numbers.
    But I would call my area boomer central. And most
    of them drank Obama koolaid. Smart people, too, which is
    why it’s so surreal.
    Two reasons. His “anti-war” speech. (Which may
    never have happened.) Hill’s vote for the war.
    His race – though they won’t admit it.
    It’s weird. I’d love to discuss this more, maybe do
    more research.

  142. No, not at all BB. I’m just thinking out loud. I think blame is a natural conclusion of resentment.

    Blaming a generation for anything is a result of resentment about the outcome.

  143. You’re right, isis. I’m certainly not holding Gen X blameless for anything, since we just did a lot to install Precious.

    But! In general I agree with madamab – it’s the ruling class we should be criticizing here, not spinning our wheels trying to generalize about people based on year of birth.

    I agree, but I think both RD and Madamab have a point. Boomers were Obama’s cover for coming out against women. And Boomers propelled him into the white house, along with our generation.

    However, I do know what it is like to feel a little alienated in a community full of people you respect and admire.

  144. RD – Let me be a little clearer as to what I’m saying. I think it would be a good idea to apologize to BB for unintentionally hurting her feelings. If you feel you are right, no need to apologize for stating your beliefs. But I am sure you did not write this post today thinking, “OK, today’s the day I will really upset Bostonboomer. Goodie!”

  145. chatblu: Is everyone on this thread willfully misunderstanding it? I *do* see a huge difference in the way women who came of age in the 60s behave and the way women who came of age in the 70s behave. We have different experiences. And I have personally taken responsibility for the fact that people my age did not carry through on the actions of the boomers ahead of us who were feminists.

    Now, everyone get a grip.

  146. RD,

    Wait a minute. I’m not going away. I was hurt because this came from you. But I know that I am not responsible for Obama or Caroline Kennedy. No amount of saying that I am responsible can change that, because it’s the simple truth. I opposed Obama with every ounce of strength and energy that I have.

    I haven’t asked you to apologize or edit your post. Please let that be noted. I’m a grown up. I thought I could convince you as a scientist that you are focusing on a confounding variable. I’m quite willing to agree to disagree. This doesn’t change my admiration or respect for you.

  147. I think that once you get into intergenerational blaming, then we have fallen into the divide part of the divide and conquer strategy.

  148. I thought we were almost always in agreement that party elites were responsible for the coronation of “O”? I have always felt that the moving force behind Obama was Ted Kennedy and he is not a boomer.

    Exactly. And remember how it was Kennedy and his ilk that hated Bill Clinton because he was a Boomer and because he was Southern White Trash.

  149. BB: This is what I said up thread:

    BB: it can’t be helped. Generational stereotypes exist b/c one generation always resents the previous generation for NOT doing something, and resents the successor generation for reaping the benefit of their sacrifice with no gratitude or understanding.

    Blame, resentment, stereotypical generalizations.

  150. Ah well, I see I am doing more harm than good here.

    Later.

  151. BB, we boomers are a more complex crowd than destroyers of democracy as we wished it. When I first read RD’s post, I laughed. It was a great line: “The great heaving mass of aging Baby Boomers besotted with Camelot is going to hurl its ire at New York’s interim senator until she goes away, just like they did to Hillary Clinton. ”

    I’m not like that and neither are you. We of “the great heaving mass” are certainly not all besotted with Camelot nor intent on destroying Clinton. That cuts across many generations – esp. the destroy Clinton part. The Kool-aid aspect is still inexplicable to me and it cuts across all generations as well.

  152. littleisis,

    Obama repeatedly attacked baby boomers and said we should go away and die. He attacked Hillary for being a baby boomer. Where do you get that he used us to win? Let’s not rewrite recent history please.

  153. *sigh*
    We have been arguing a lot lately here. RD is right. Time to get a grip.

  154. Eleanor Rodham A, on January 28th, 2009 at 10:24 am Said:

    SM – I get what you’re saying, and since I don’t know a lot about how immigration policy is set up right now I’m gonna shut my piehole. I will say this, though: I don’t think illegals should be jumped ahead of other people who have applied for citizenship properly simply because they’ve come here to have children. I think the fact that an illegal has a child here should be considered one factor, along with many others.

    Anyone who thinks this is too tough should have a look at the immigration policies of Australia and Great Britain for comparison. Australia actually does put folks who arrive illegally by boat into detention.

    What I want to know is WHERE in any place you got the idea that illegals with US born children are going to jump ahead of any line????

    That’s not how the bill reads and that is not how the law will treat these cases.

    I just want to guarantee the Constitutional rights of the US born child – while the illegal immigrant parent is fulfilling their US residency requirements.

  155. Hey People
    can we please NOT let divide and conquer work.
    Backtrack was selected by the corporations to fill an agenda.
    He lied like a cheap rug and fooled a lot of people.
    People of many generations were fooled.
    As a women of an older generation the believed we taught the children and did not follow the children, every time I heard someone say ” I voted for him because my children told me to” I wanted to gag.
    Each generation has its own problems and also good things .
    The people here make me believe in the future. All of you.
    If we start blaming each other and each generation instead of the corporations who really selected him we will never be able to overcome the greed and help this country be what it should be.
    1st in women’s rights
    1st in fail elections with people running who really love this country.
    Go back to be a producing nation and not a debtor nation

    Love you all

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  156. I’ll gladly go away for now if you all think I should. But I’ve made my points and personally I am done. I already feel much better because I’ve been able to express why I disagree with seeing generation as the deciding factor. I’m sorry if I’ve ruined the morning for the rest of you. Truly sorry.

  157. Obama repeatedly attacked baby boomers and said we should go away and die. He attacked Hillary for being a baby boomer. Where do you get that he used us to win? Let’s not rewrite recent history please.

    Well, I guess if he was using baby Boomers as a generational scapegoat, like you say, than I suppose that is how he used Baby Boomers to win.

    I just defended you BB. Time to stop leaping down everyone’s throat.

  158. Willfully? Hardly. And my defensiveness has not been pointed at any one person. Further, I do thank you for the acknowledgement that there were major differences in that 10 or so years that separate us, and I just have to believe that we deserve some sort of credit for this. Do I believe that we were perfect? Hardly. Did we finish everything that we started? Nope. Life got in the way. By and large, I think that we got a lot accomplished, and I will stand on that. History will be our judge. My grandmother, who worked for women’s right to vote, told me many years ago that the worst anger that she felt was from her daughter’s generation, so I guess that this is running true to form. Grip gotten.

  159. The great heaving mass of aging Baby Boomers besotted with Camelot is going to hurl its ire at New York’s interim senator until she goes away, just like they did to Hillary Clinton.

    In attempting to offer some perspective, perhaps it would have been better served if the sentence had included the words “some aging Baby Boomers” instead.

  160. Should read
    1st in FAIR not fail elections

  161. OK, little isis. I guess you told me.

  162. My BF told me about a weekly meeting he goes to with
    other boomers after the inauguration. There were about
    five people left after the meeting. (All white).
    Several said they cried. One spoke of going down to
    Mississipi, while in high school. Others had history with
    civil rights movement. My BF said he was very moved.
    (I didn’t watch it with him, thank God. He was at work.)
    I know one of these people and she’s a feminist,
    but I’ve never discussed the topic with her. He did say
    one of the women was silent, and he suspects she’s a
    Puma, like me. Of course, she was silent.
    I was surprised last spring when I went into a local
    bookstore the day Hill won a primary (think it was
    Puerto Rico). I knew the owners were big Obama supporters,
    but when they left the salesperson told me that there
    are lots of people (boomers) who come in and say they
    can’t stand Obama, won’t vote for him if he’s nominee.
    But they seem to remain low profile. I didn’t think
    they existed around here.

  163. bb: Don’t you dare go away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  164. later, madamab!

  165. Re: Boomers and Reagan

    Baby boomers include some of those blue-collar “Reagan Democrats” as well as lots of southern conservatives, and Christian fundamentalists.

    George W. Bush is a boomer too

  166. riverdaughter –

    “Then the people who did it are boomers. Sorry if that is offensive but that’s the truth. Not all of them were boomers but the ones who called the shots last year and decided it would be Obama and not Hillary were boomers.”

    John Siegel offers a very compelling statement in TAOD which basically supports what you’re saying here.

  167. Pat,

    I’m not going away. I’ve said that repeatedly. I don’t believe in going away just because I disagree with someone or something. And I hope I won’t be asked to go away.

  168. Why not just consider that those who brought us Obama have their heads stuck up their ass?

  169. The baby boom spanned from 1946 to 1964. Although people born in those years are often lumped together and referred to as one generation, clearly one can see that someone born in 1946 might not have very much in common with someone born in 1964. Obama was born in 1961 and is technically a baby boomer but he is considered post-baby boom because he grew up outside of it.

    All of the elite Democrats I know who helped elect Obama with their surpluses of cash were born before 1946. They might consider themselves boomers because they grew up during the boom, but technically they are not.

    I agree with those here who are saying that it’s neither fair nor accurate to credit or blame baby-boomers with anything since the span of time is so vast and the generations involved so disparate.

  170. I think what RD just said supports what I’m saying.

    My mom was an anti-war activist. She could have pushed the womens agenda in the 70s and didn’t. She dropped the ball. When I was upset about how Hillary was treated, I got into many fights with my mother about it, and my mother told me I didn’t know what hard is when it comes to being a woman. I asked her what did she ever do to change it so that it would be better for me, and that I was fighting to make it better for my niece. She told me, and I quote: “that is for your generation to fight. I am tired and scared.”

    I love my mom, but she chose her battle and her battle was war. She left if for me to push the female agenda. I agree with RD’s position that there were many people who were re-fighting an old agenda vis a vis becoming a post racial country. It validated that group’s historical activism. I also think that war is a universal liberal battle cry (sorry for the pun). Using BO’s alleged opposition to the war and theoretical no vote to war in Iraq validated some old anti-war positions (Susan Sarandon comes to mind) and also invigorated the up and coming “progressives.”

    At the end of the day, and as we saw, the attempt to reinvigorate womens rights activism was a nonevent.

  171. myiq: Reagan was a savvy politician who sensed resentment in the South and Midwest against the civil rights movement and jumped on it. Many southern democrats felt that their party had turned its back on them As a Southern Democrat, I didn’t believe it then, but I am have a new level of understanding now on a whole new level (so to speak).

  172. BB: DO NOT GO.

    Maybe the answer to all this is a post in response to this one???

  173. Thanks littleisis, you nailed it with one statement – Southern white trash, why? Because, it was the party elites that wanted rid of the Clintons, southerners just cannot be the first black president, that would negate every southern stereotype. Party elitists placed Obama into office, had nothing to with generation, but more to do with classism.

  174. RD: I thought Obama’s disparaging comments about the cynical people, the past, and childish ways were all swipes at the boomers. Yes, I know LOTS of boomers who are in love with B0. I also know lots of boomers who are not.

  175. I agree with BB. Obama went on against baby-boomers as if they were his mother.

  176. OK, little isis. I guess you told me.

    I’m sorry, BB

  177. bostonboomer, Said: And I hope I won’t be asked to go away.

    Never!

  178. bb: You would never be asked to go away. You speak from the heart and you combine your thoughts with passion. There is no “right” or “wrong” on whatever position one chooses to defend. It is theirs. It belongs to them. Expression should never be suppressed no matter where it leads or who chooses to support or oppose it.

    When we lose sight of that we are in for big trouble.

  179. Thanks littleisis, you nailed it with one statement – Southern white trash, why? Because, it was the party elites that wanted rid of the Clintons, southerners just cannot be the first black president, that would negate every southern stereotype. Party elitists placed Obama into office, had nothing to with generation, but more to do with classism.

    I have always loved Bill Clinton because of how human he is, and because he was the first Prez to really break that class barrier for the Presidency. He was a great president and I think History will regard him as a leader of his generation that broke the mold in washington, no matter how much flack he took for it

  180. BB, you contribute too much to this community to be asked to go away. Now, enough with the drama!

  181. Eleanor, 1945 babies were not boomers. That’s still WWII babies.

    When someone uses the term “great heaving mass of aging Baby Boomers,” that’s not pointing at a few. Unless you think most boomers are employed at the NYT. And it comes off as pretty derogatory in and of itself.

    You’re going to be able to point to boomers doing a lot of things good and bad because – guess what – we’re just a damn large group of people.

    I’m going to take my heaving, aging fanny out of here for now, but first I’m going to blow a secret: We really generated ourselves, forced ourselves into our mothers’ wombs with no actions by them or our fathers, solely and deliberately to inflict evil upon the world. Bwah hah hah hah ha! God, it’s good to be so powerful!

  182. Anywho, gotta go. Will be back for tonight’s show, which I anticipate with glee!

  183. bb, don’t go away. This is a great topic and an important
    one. This is one of the big puzzlements for me, and
    important to explore. I often relate to your comments,
    and look for your feedback. Part of it is because you
    are clear, reasoned and smart, your therapy background
    (which I share, too), but mostly it’s our generational
    commonality.

    I, too, was totally offended by boomer bashing on kos.
    (I was lurking, new to blogging). I do think this is
    different, though.

    I think the main demographics to elect Obama were
    African-Americans, and below thirtys. Look at faces
    at his events, his victory speeches. Boomers were
    divided, but there is a portion of lefty boomers who
    hated Hillary.

  184. This is what RD has to say about disagreements:

    riverdaughter, on January 27th, 2009 at 8:59 pm Said:

    three: Isn’t it amazing? I go to work in the morning and get stuck behind a firewall so I have no idea what’s going on during the day. Butchaknow, I am never disappointed when I come home and read the posts. And we all come from different POV but there is something underneath it all that keeps it together. It is like a safety net of sorts. We are the common man/woman, working class, as is everyone not making millions of dollars a year, struggling to make a living for ourselves while being compassionate to the people around us.
    I LOVE this place.

  185. apparently I am in permanent moderation, but I’ll try anyway.

    telling bb “enough with the drama” is pretty insensitive and not helpful

  186. I rtoo eally don’t need the trashing of the boomers. Gillibrand herself is presumably a boomer, as are both Clintons, and the Gores, too.

    OTOH, David Broder and Sally Quinn aren’t boomers.

    If you want to blame someone, blame the boomers’ parents for having so many children. But generational warfare IMO is incredibly unproductive.

  187. RD,

    Bostonboomer is right. You are conflating the age of media idiots with a whole bunch of population. Hillary’s most ardent supporters were boomer women.

    Yes, gasbags such as MoDo are obsessed with ‘camelot’. But that’s a consequence of their own elitism, snobbery, superior attitudes (while being stupid), and disregard for working class. Really, their worship of ‘camelot’ is the same as Obama worship. The Favreaus and Dowds of this world don’t give a shit about substance; they just want coolness. If millions of people get hurt in the process, it’s not going to damp down MoDo’s party. They are having a blast.

    Obama has something in common with Kennedy. They both sell. Really, lots of publishers and cable owners were having wet dreams thinking of how much ‘media’ they are going to sell with such good looking people on the cover. Of course, commentators and media minions would also bask in the glory of increased sale and profits. Hillary’s less-than-ideal figure was going to ruin it for them.

    Someone had actually written it about Gore: “oh, he is like the kid who is asking the teacher for extra homework.” Yeah, that’s a really bad quality in a President. They hated Hillary on the same principle.

    On the other hand, there is no doubt in my mind that the media wanted Caroline Kennedy, and are now smearing Paterson and have started on Gillibrand. They were willing participants in the CK media blitz. Paterson kept giving hints, and saying he is interviewing people. He sent a 28 page questionnaire, which he wouldn’t do if he wanted to waste the time of a bunch of movers and shakers. Media still wrote headline like, “it’s Caroline” about 2 days before. They were going to coronate CK and are mad as hell that they were thwarted.

    About Paterson being nasty to her: as far as I can determine, all that comes from one (count: 1) unnamedsource the NYTimes and 1 vague and very short quote. All of sudden, that has translated to all the gasbags (such as Andrea Mitchell, to name one) holding Paterson personally responsible for one sentence in a long article.

  188. I honestly believe that Ted Kennedy saw the “Camelot” fable unraveling and felt he had to stop it. I grew up hearing about how wonderful JFK was and could never understand the hero worship.

    I always believed Bobby was the true star and Ted was the black sheep. There is no one else to carry on the legacy, so Teddy found someone, and he tried to make Camelot all over again, complete with Michelle being Jackie O. I keep waiting to see the phot of one of the Obama children under the desk in the oval office, just like John-John.

  189. Is there a full moon out there?
    There seems to be a lot of flak in the last couple of days.
    Discussion is a good thing, just please do not let it become arguments that cause pain.
    BB and Mawm please stay, you are a part of this PUMA family.
    myiq2xu do not let them get to you, you are a big part of this family and we WILL stand together.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  190. When I get in the Home Improvement mode, I like to paint with a broad rollers. It’s great — it’s quick, covers lots of area fast, is fairly uniform, but it’s not so good for detailing and sometimes it splatters. I use a detailing brush when I’m doing cornering work or trimming. When people see the final product most everyone sees the finished product of the roller and rightly so since it did the most work. Some people though do focus on the detailing and that’s okay too because without the fine work of the detailing brush the roller’s work wouldn’t be noticed.

    I imagine when I clean the roller and the detailing brush and put them away they have a conversation about who contributed the most. They end their conversation by realizing that neither could do the work of the other, they both had a job to do and they left a little piece of the world a better place. I’m thinking there might be a lesson there…

  191. Purplefinn:

    EXACTLY – that’s why I’m calling for BB to write a post in response.

    It’s not a matter of right or wrong – it’s just a point of view.

    C’mon BB! Write a post, pretty please???

  192. I AM IN MODERATION

  193. I never thought I could EVER disagree with RD on anything she could ever post, because I have always admired the clarity of her mind.

    (But I think this boomer generational stuff is an Axelrod machination, to destroy the Liberal way of thinking within the Dem Party.)

    And of course there were Reagan boomers, just as there were Carter, Clinton, Gore boomers. Boomers were actually too young to have voted for JFK.

  194. RD,

    I’m kind of surprised to see you say that Obama didn’t attack baby boomers. He did it repeatedly, and it was one of his early arguments against Hillary–that boomers were refighting the battles of the ’60s. He even wrote about this pretty extensively in his book, “The Audacity of Hope.” My observation was that Obama set out to divide Democrats on a number of issues, race, gender, sexual preference, and generation. It was deliberate.

  195. HELP STILL IN MODERATION!!!

  196. Prolix: Profound! Good stuff.

  197. Boomers (1946-1964):

    Rick Warren
    Alberto Gonzales
    Tom Delay
    Michael Jackson
    O.J. Simpson
    Michael Moore
    Dan Quayle
    Murphy Brown (Candace Bergen)
    Jerry Seinfeld
    Al Gore
    Barack Obama
    Sarah Palin

    Not Boomers:

    Tom Hayden
    Jane Fonda
    Newt Gingrich
    Mick Jagger
    Elvis
    Smothers Brothers
    Chuck Norris
    Jerry Springer

  198. bostonboomer, on January 28th, 2009 at 11:04 am Said:

    RD,

    I’m kind of surprised to see you say that Obama didn’t attack baby boomers. He did it repeatedly, and it was one of his early arguments against Hillary–that boomers were refighting the battles of the ’60s. He even wrote about this pretty extensively in his book, “The Audacity of Hope.” My observation was that Obama set out to divide Democrats on a number of issues, race, gender, sexual preference, and generation. It was deliberate.
    ________________________________________________

    It certainly was deliberate! and it really hurt to watch, just like this thread.

  199. I don’t think boomer O support had any connection at all
    with Camelot. It was civil rights and the Iraq war.
    And lots of misinformation and stubborness.

  200. I agree with Laurie — the anti-boomer talk comes from the people who want to destroy Social Security and Medicare, and use generational resentment to do that.

    The boomers didn’t create the Camelot myth — that was the Kennedy family and retainers, all much older than the boomers.

    And no boomer I know is falling for Caroline.

  201. Prolix, Very well said. I do a lot of painting myself and I know that, although the broad roller makes the work faster and easier, I could never do the entire job using only the roller. I could, however, do the entire job with my brush. It would take a lot longer, but it would still look great. The broad roller is a great time saver, but without it, the job could still be done well. Without the brush and the edging, the job would be sloppy and unacceptable.

  202. Kim,

    I think I got you out, but I can check again.

  203. The Real Kim: I agree with you. ted saw the light of Camelot fading. He feared competition from a Clinton legacy. Therefore, transferrence to Obama would work and if they could spiff up Caroline with some Senate time, then perhaps the first female president could be a Kennedy, adding another first to Camelot. Poor Ted. He has done so much good and so much harm.

  204. SepathTruth

    Millenials and Gen X & Yers pushed their boomer parents to vote Obama because if they didn’t they’d be racist.

    Take the classic quote from Claire McCatskill who said she supported Obama because her daughters told her to.

  205. I am out. Thanks boomer to boomer. 😉

  206. I remember the sixties, looking back it was a decade with very low unemployment, but I was a teenager. The seventies and eighties on the other hand had severe recessions. It wasn’t so easy even then to be a boomer.

  207. Could it be as plain as the nose on anyone’s face:

    Joe Bidens replacement = Edward “Ted” Kaufman

    Ken Salazars replacement = Michael Bennet

    Barack Obamas replacement = Roland Burris

    Hillary Clintons replacement = Kirsten Gillibrand

    Do you think it might just be liberal misogyny at work once again.

  208. ACK – in moderation – I used the r word – help!

    ABG is making goo-goo eyes at me!

  209. Boomer:

    Ken Starr
    Clarence Thomas

    Not boomer:

    John Kerry
    Teddy Kennedy

  210. Laurie- after the War ended, the US plunged into a recession. During the period that we had manufacturing, war was good for the economy. (Remember Country Joe? “War is good business, invest your son!”)

  211. myiq: maybe we should see how many of us are boomers. I came in on the tail end, born 1958.

  212. From what I understand from my mother (b. 1951 as set forth upthread), Bobby was it. He was the one. Of course, my mother’s agenda (as set forth upthread) was Vietnam and everyone thought Bobby would get us out of there.

    I think Camelot died with Bobby, frankly. The other Kennedys just haven’t gotten the net yet.

  213. I’m going out to shovel some snow. I don’t want anyone to think I went anywhere. I’m over it, trust me. I love all of you and I love Riverdaughter.

  214. Micki: Your mom was right., Bobby was THE one. I remember to this day where I was with both assasinations.

  215. Yes, I really liked Bobby.

  216. No Boomer. 1971. I am a “me generation greed is good gen x’er” who graduated college in 1993. I couldn’t get any summer jobs in 1990 or 1991 b/c of the recession. It didn’t feel like a very “me” time. Which I think proves the point that there are subdivisions within each of the “generation monikers.”

  217. bb said at 11:04,

    ……Obama set out to divide Democrats on a number of
    issues, race, gender, sexual preference, and generation.
    It was deliberate.

    Absolutely. His comments about boomers and
    “excesses of the 60’s and 70’s” were the very first red
    flag for me. The second was his comments about Reagan.

  218. taggles – Yup. That’s how I see it too.

    Hillary wanted a new New Deal and would have wounded the patriarchy.

    Obama didn’t, and didn’t.

    Bada bing, bada boom, Betty Boop.

  219. We are in love with narratives. We just came off the bogus bio of Obama but what better way to seal the deal than by hawking him as a “poor black child” raised on food stamps by a single mother. We know he never went to bed hungry in his life!

    The same with the Kennedy narrative. Camelot was so tightly wound into the strand of the story that it has taken on a life of its own with little basis for reality. The truth is that JFK was suffering a debilating illness, he cheated on his wife, his father was a nazi sympathizer who made his money essentially from bootlegging.

    In both instances, these “stories” are fairy tales. The public is content to lap it up. The days of Knights in Shining Armor have not been replaced. We keep alert to the sound of a hero rescuing us from our fates.

  220. My point is that someone with power, as many of RD’s posts have indicated, was prepping Obama before most of us even knew who he even existed. That was not a boomer. It had to be someone with extreme power in the party and it wasn’t the Clintons. From my viewpoint, there has only been one extremely powerful democrat from the beginning of Obama’s rise up til now and that is Ted Kennedy. Not a tin foil hat theory, just my observation.

    Obama was groomed and readied for his coronation and I believe Ted Kennedy was the groomer. The Kennedy name carries a lot of pwer in the Dem party because of his brothers.

    This had nothing to do with generational politics, but power and the power elite.

  221. I don’t think Paterson deserves to be blamed for what is happening. As a NY Governor he deserved the right to find the best candidate for his state. There was no need to rush the decision. It is the media that messed up. They tried to pressure Paterson to choose CK and I thought he was going to do so. They never thought Paterson would defy them. Paterson never told CK that he would choose her. All he said was that there were other candidates to consider. It was the media that implied she was already chosen. Paterson did his job.

  222. TheRealKim, on January 28th, 2009 at 11:15 am Said:

    myiq: maybe we should see how many of us are boomers. I came in on the tail end, born 1958.

    Me – 12/49 and hardly consider myself the great heaving mass of aging baby boomers besotted with Camelot. My parents, first generation here born in the ’20s, were more besotted with JFK and the Camelot myth.

  223. Boomer:

    Ralph Reed
    Jack Abramoff
    Karl Rove
    MoDo

    Not boomer:

    Jack Nicholson
    Dennis Hopper
    Janis Joplin
    Goldie Hawn

  224. 1950 for me My son was born in 1988-no summer jobs or part-time work for him , this year either. (like Micki)

  225. TRK – I absolutely believe it was Ted Kennedy. There was no way Caroline’s letter to the New York Times claiming Obama was the new JFK was an accident.

    I also believe that the Republican Party had a lot to do with it, at least funding-wise. They were pretty sure they were going to lose this battle, so they backed Reagan Jr.

    Everybody wins, except the people. But that’s been true for the past eight years. Change, my *ss.

  226. Today Obama was trashing Washington and complaining that it isn’t like Chicago when it comes to ice storms. Maybe he should go back and stay there.

  227. Exactly Pat, I never understood the fascination of Camelot. It didn’t exist, there were more women backdoored in and out of the White House than we will ever know.

    Bobby was the man and even his brothers and sisters knew it.

  228. btw – Evil Gen-Xer here, 1967.

  229. Pat J: From what I have seen and read, Bobby was the brains behind JFK. Apparently, that was inconvenient, b/c JFK was in line for the throne. Wasn’t Joe the one who was supposed to take the helm but died in WWII? I have to get my Camelot straight.

    It really is like a monarchy. Isn’t Jeb up next with the Bushies?

    I find it funny that people rejected Hillary b/c she is part of a “political family” and that we didn’t want “another political dynasty” so they voted for Obama, but the Obots like Caroline Kennedy.

    It boggles the mind.

  230. MoDo lives in JFK’s “love nest”-no wonder she’s besotted.

  231. myiq, what’s your point?

    That there are fools in every generation?

  232. plural: exactly. If that’s myiq’s point, I agree wholeheartedly.

  233. And what is the “special friendship” between Pinch and Caroline that
    is rumored? If there is any truth to this, and the associated rumors
    that her marriage has been on the rocks for years, maybe the
    Times is simply promoting the editor’s special friend.

  234. I agree with RD, about this end of the Baby Boom we come from!
    The Eagles and the Smiley face — also about what happened to the women’s movement — in our group as I know it out here in Ca. (and I’m thinking the East Coast is the same) — we had all kinds of FREEDOM.

    But, we were on our own! RD and I were the first women in our families who went to college and we worked for that ourselves — there was no paved road on any of it — regardless of how affluent our parents were or not! We were left to our own devices — when it came to relationships, work, marriage and so forth. That’s for those of us who are straight. Many in our gen are not. We were friends — and this was apparent in our friends by the tenth 10th grade.

    Civil Rights and what RD said about that older part of the boom wanting O for that reason — I believe that to be true as well.

    But see, we were integrated, in schools because of the Civil Rights era. That had already happened. So, when all this hurling of terms like the R word were happening last year — we were like WHAT?

    WTF are you talking about!

    As I see it, post college, early 80’s, there was not a feminist movement per se? WE WERE WORKING! So effing hard at our jobs, huh, RD.

    Our whole modus operandi is about EDUCATION and WORK.

    We didn’t just “get married”

    For us? That wouldn’t have been enough. Our gen was about our lives having MEANING! (Hence importance of seeing Hillary almost make it! to the TOP). She’s older but SHE IS US!

    One thing this year brought out “heavily” for all of us was what happened not just to HILLARY but to PALIN and now look! GILLIBRAND!

    Also, REGIONALISM has been HUGE this year.

    Just look how different it looks by comparing those three women.

    So, FEMINISM will be about supporting the “best choice” for the job.

    Truly.

    For us. Whoever she is, she will have to have “done” something on her own — like we did! We will vote for her because of merit, we will support her if she is thrashed — that is the sisterhood.

    Nobody gets a free pass into the sisterhood without merit.

    We are a very discriminating, smart bunch is this group.

    What I liked about Gillibrand? She went straight to Harlem. Right to the streets. This is very different than being a socialite.

    She was acting like a DEM. By doing that.

    RD is right to call the NYT on what they are doing if they try and destroy her in print.

    Also, I strongly agree with what she said above about the part of the Bboom that hurtled O into place for its own misty eyed post Beatle glory — a person’s skin color means little to us. We just want the SMARTEST person for the job. And since so many of us (as women) experienced so much SEXISM all our lives in our own jobs — if we see that?

    Well….

    Look out!

    So, Regionalism must have everything to do with things as we are seeing them unfold.

    We are going to have to understand who is who by that — and why…

    Palin’s Alaska life is much different than RD’s or mine. Gillibrand’s life in NY will look different than a life in Kentucky perhaps?

    But, after the misogyny we just saw unfold — we are right to band together — again as women — over that alone.

    It’s a coming of age 70’s thing — in a way.

    It’s a sisterhood of the traveling pants ala working women thing…

    One thing about our gen? We were all in the same boat — and, we are friends with the men in our gen. We all lived out the same era of history together — all slaved away at jobs side by side — all probably had to pay back a student loan or two to arrive where we did.

    Our gen changes its mind on careers all the time.

    We have no problem doing that — it has made our lives interesting?

    In high school we had the Vietnam War and Nixon as defining events to shape our worldview. Abour war, and about politics.

    We were too little for Woodstock.

    This gen is made up of “individuals” — very individual people.

    But hey, once PUMA formed — did we ever know each other!

    hugs——–

  235. The elites see us as cattle to be pushed, prodded, penned. We will never know what RFK would have accomplished had he risen to the presidency. But once and for all we need to get away from these myths and stories that are fed to us so easily. Because we are so lazy and unwilling to do our own homework with regard to the candidate, we allow whatever they wish to push to become the truth.

    This applies to all candidates in each party. Right now, somewhere, someone is “creating” a story to fit the narrative on yet another up and comer. Little is paid to their actual policy stance but more attention is paid to how well they dress, hold a gun, cook a meal, ride a bike, tell a joke.

    And as long as we fall for it the longer it serves them well.

  236. People often seem to think that the Kennedy Dynasty began during the 30s with bootlegging. I’ve posted this b4 but it’s still interesting- in 1916 JFK’s grandfather ran for the Senate.
    I found it on Lodge in wiki

    In November 1952 Lodge was narrowly defeated by Kennedy; Lodge received 48.5% of the vote to Kennedy’s 51.5%. By an interesting coincidence, in 1916 Henry Cabot Lodge, Sr. had defeated Kennedy’s grandfather John F. Fitzgerald for the same Senate seat. In yet another coincidence, Lodge’s son, George C. Lodge was defeated in his bid for the seat by Kennedy’s brother Ted Kennedy in 1962.

  237. This place is just like family!

  238. myiq,

    Can you find out the names and ages of all the people in the RBC while you’re at it?

    LOL! I dug up a lot of that stuff when I was back at the Cheeto. No one was in any way influenced by the actual ages of people they assumed were baby boomers. Many people told me that John McCain was a baby boomer!

  239. Arabella – LOL!

    🙂

  240. Brazile is a boomer, Dean is a boomer, Ickes is not a boomer. Those are the few I know.

  241. This place is just like family!

    Which one? The Manson family?

  242. Laurie,

    Rose was from a wealthy political family. Joe Kennedy married into it and that’s how he moved out of the lower classes. The Kennedys still aren’t really old rich. Neither are the Bushes, but the Bushes are a lot richer and more powerful than the Kennedys ever were.

  243. My generation is famous for shoulderpads, bad primetime soap operas like “Dallas,” MTV, selfishness and love of Raygun.

    What an awesome legacy!

    😉

  244. myiq, what’s your point?

    My what?

  245. So true, BB.

    People were always saying that Newt Gingrich was a baby boomer, but he isn’t .

  246. Joe Bidens replacement = Edward “Ted” Kaufman

    Joe Biden’s replacement is his son. Edward “Ted” Kaufman is just a seat-warmer

  247. My point is that many of the people that are icons of the Boomer generation aren’t boomers, and some of the people who oppose everything the boomers are supposed to stand for ARE boomers.

  248. As far as I can tell, RD’s point was directed at boomers in the media, and boomers interested more in civil rights redux than women’s rights. My work is generally in the field of marketing and media. In that business at least, RD is quite accurate. A qualification in RD’s piece indicating she was talking about certain segments of the boomer gen, however, would have helped. But without allowing people the benefit of the doubt, these sensitivity debates are going to crash your servers and your morale. It’s a tough time out there, we need to stick together, and I for one am trying hard to develop thicker skin, with or without your help.

    Agree with SM on some kind of Comprehensive Immigration Reform. It does not equal amnesty. However the tanking economy will put that on the back burner. I’m an immigrant from my childhood. My wife has just recently become naturalized, and it took for friggin ever, and the graft in the current system was disgusting.

    On Paterson, he did have Gillibrand picked from very early on, imo. If he had gone public at that point, before Hill had even been sworn in, the media and everyone else the Kennedys knew would have been on him 24/7 like…well you know. Imo again, how Paterson handled the appointment was one of the most skillful handling of a delicate political process that I’ve seen in a long time. The NYT has absolutely gone off the deep end.

    Finally, one small point myiq, when you said:

    “Do you really think it was the bloviating gasbags themselves that decided to support Obama and destroy all of his opponents?

    They were doing what they were told to do by the people who pay their salaries.”

    ———-

    You’re right, but from a demographic profiling standpoint, the gasbags and salary payers are pretty much identical.

    Once again, enjoyed your courage last night. I look forward to engaging more with TC of course. Maybe we could all ease up a bit on the free wheeling accusations in our comments, and try and listen more.

  249. madamb: I always cut my shoulder pads out. Shoulder pads are an abomination.

    You forgot legwarmers for all those new fangled aerobics classes.

  250. myiq, what’s your point?

    My what?

    Reworded: Why are you posting lists of names?

  251. Maybe we could all ease up a bit on the free wheeling accusations in our comments, and try and listen more.

    You must be new to the blogosphere

  252. I’m late to this party, but IMO, RD is wrong to lump all Boomers together and I believe those at the Times behind the Princess at all cost campaign would be insulted by the idea they are mere Boomers lol! Boomer bashing in the blogosphere generally will be ramping up .That’s how SS will be taken out .

  253. 3W: its been pretty testy around her lately, but I think everyone holds their own pretty well. I personally have not met a shrinking violet here, yet! 🙂

  254. The best thing about the 70’s:

    Dittos jeans (“Feel the Fit”)

  255. I was born in 1952 – Year of the Dragon
    I am an Aries
    With a moon in scorpio or some other shit like that.

    I was always a Luna Lovegood type – never fit in anywhere. I don’t identify with generational labels. I certainly do identify with feminist issues. This whole election cycle showed me how far, how very far, we have NOT come on women’s rights.

    The New York Times ran article today:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/28/nyregion/28daba.html

    I only say this article because I just put my wet boots on it. Who can take the New York Times seriously? It’s not even particularly absorbent.

  256. Pat Johnson,

    Re JFK – He was also addicted to pain killers. (Ya think that
    might interfere with decision making?)

    And not only did he cheat on his wife, but he had pool
    parties with lots of women at the White House when Jackie
    was away, swimming nude, smoking pot and getting drunk.
    (My BF loves that part). Secret Service and media all
    knew about it and covered it up. Frat boy tradition?
    And this doesn’t mean, that he wasn’t capable of
    greatness. as in bb’s premise. Just that Camelot was one
    more media creation that the American people ate up.

    Unfortunately, the American people are so easy to
    fool. Seems media can convince them of anything. (See
    Iraq war, electing Bush.)

  257. Micki: Oh, and the Madonna gloves, lace and rubber bracelets!

    Good times, good times.

    Were “Candies” shoes in the 70’s or 80’s? I forget. All I know is, they were painful as hell.

  258. There are 259 comments on this post. I think we need a new thread, but I don’t have anything noncontroversial. Anyone? Anyone?

  259. myiq: Bah. We had Jordache and Calvin Klein and “chic” jeans, which came in about 100 different sizes to fit “every body.”

    I shopped for my chic jeans at the DEB shop.

    Yeah, that’s right.

  260. maybe we should do a generational healing open thread where we was poetic about everything good AND bad about our generation.

  261. LOL Arabella! What good is the Times then? If is won’t even work to train puppies and line birdcages, it’s completely worthless!

  262. WAX poetic.

  263. You must be new to the blogosphere

    ———-

    I am, so sue me.

  264. Madamab: YES, those god awful jelly shoes. the welts! the welts!

  265. Everything gets marketed, one way or another. The Camelot Package seemed classier – better clothes, dinner guests.

    I read a lot of history. It seems this marketing/image phenomemon has always happened to a certain degree.

  266. George W. Bush and Bill Clinton were born about six weeks apart. That if anything shows you the irrelevance of generalizing about generations.

    The generational stuff IMO is a media and advertising strategy, and we do ourselves harm when we fall for it.

  267. plural – yes

  268. plural, I don’t think its a media strategy at all. It has been going on since the dawn of time.

  269. Doesn’t mean we should “fall” for it, “engage” in it, etc. But it is there. Ignoring it doesn’t make it go away.

  270. Somebody, please start a new thread.

  271. I can’t post from work.

    I like the idea of a Generational Healing peace post. IMHO a lot of generational hatred was fostered by Obama and his people. We should agree that there are a lot of great people in every generation, and a lot of not-so-great people too.

    Just my two cents.

  272. It exists in the sense that people have children, and so there are different generations, yes.

    But this is way overdone in American culture.

    The media throws us into groups in order to market stuff to us and to divide us from one another — to create unnecessary antagonisms.

    People have friends who are way older and younger than themselves — but to listen to the media, you would think we are divided into armed camps, who are threats to one anothers’ interests.

  273. If everyone wants it, I’ll put up a “generational healing” open thread. Just give me a few mins.

  274. oops. I’ll do it later. New post up by taggles!

  275. miq2xu!

    “Dittos!” and candies and chubby fake fur jackets and ummm….

    LOL!

    LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!

    Jordache was in their somewhere — and the more I think about this “Charlie” Perfume. OMG.

    For the pantsuit set ala 1979!

    yep.

    There was also OPIUM perfume at the time!

    When Candies came back a few years ago I remembered — the last years of disco….!

    Right before the Pretenders and my Black Leather jacket!

  276. I have to go shovel this ice that Mr. Limosine thinks we should have driven through this morning.

    Love to everybody, however old you are.

  277. I don’t know about the designer jean thing, I wore levis, old worn out button fly’s and usually flip flops or went barefoot, sue me, I am a boomer.

  278. plural: I never said it wasn’t exploited. I just don’t think its a creation of the media and advertising. They benefit from it, but they are only feeding off an already existing sentiment.

    TRK: Chic jeans were less expensive than Levis, which I could not afford. They sold levi’s at The Gap, which used to be a small story with wood paneling and a pair of ENORMOUS jeans on the front. My mom didn’t even take me there to buy jeans. I bought my first and only pair of Jordache jeans with babysitting money. They were not worth it.

  279. Same here, Kim.

    Designer jeans came after us. My first pair of bell bottoms was purchased at an army navy store. And before that it was levis. In high school we had to wear skirts–no culottes even.

  280. I am not a boomer (fortunately) nor was I raised by boomers (yay!). Technically I fit in the Gen X demographic, but was reared with pre-boomer sensibilities

  281. vbonnaire,

    Many of us were at Woodstock (I was).

    Woodstock symbolized the boomer generation – the
    idealism, rebellion against conformity and corporatism,
    individual expression, longing for peace in all forms, fun, play,
    Love, sexuality, new spirituality, and – hope – for a new and
    better world. And of course, great music and art and dance.
    Cultural and spiritual revolution, anti-corporate. Beginning
    of FM radio as non-commercial force.

    Then it was coopted. Now most people think it was
    about drugs. It wasn’t. Drugs were only a tool, a way to
    reach that enlightenment and nirvana we were innocent
    enough to believe in.

    God, I miss it.

    I still believe in what Woodstock stood for, even though
    parts of it were impractical in reality.
    Those years before and after, up to Kent State,
    were the best ever. We truly believed the world was on
    the way to becoming a better place. I believed that until the
    Bush years. Then there was a rude awakening.

    Those born after 1960, whether called boomers or
    not, can’t understand those early struggles, and also,
    the feminist struggles of the 70’s. I think that was part
    of the issue last night, myiq. For me that pushed the button
    about political correctness that many feminists rebelled
    against.
    I tried to impart that consciousness to my
    GenX children. I think they got most of it because they
    were part of some of it as children. They remember things
    like “War is not healthy for children and other living things”
    poster hanging on our walls.

  282. Micki,

    I don’t know how old your are, but the Gap didn’t exist when I was in my 20s even. I never heard of Chic jeans then either. I had to buy men’s jeans and so did many women.

  283. platform shoes, bell-bottoms, and fringes!!!

    All kinds of t-shirts, mostly bought on market stalls.

    Then I went into batik, tie dye and airbrushing cotton textiles to make into clothes and sell.

  284. speaktruth: why does America idealize the fifties, then?

  285. Laurie,

    I remember when rock music went to FM. As a kid I listened to AM radio. The change was amazing, but it didn’t happen until the late ’60s. WBCN in Boston was one of the first FM stations to start playing rock music.

  286. BB: I’m 37. I think Levis were still for boys. Maybe that’s why my mom didn’t take me there!!!

  287. speaktruth:
    Woodstock symbolized the boomer generation – the
    idealism, rebellion against conformity and corporatism,
    individual expression, longing for peace in all forms, fun, play,
    Love, sexuality, new spirituality, and – hope – for a new and
    better world.

    That’s why the meme of change appealed to some of the boomer generation. Of course it didn’t much appeal to those who were feminists.

  288. I wore bell bottom jeans. And very short skirts or very long
    Indian print dresses. Flowing scarves tied around my
    head or my waist – or both.
    Platform shoes in the 70’s. Were those candies? Tan
    sandal platforms? Can’t remember their name. Loved them.

  289. Elderj,

    My parents survived the dust bowl and the great depression. My dad fought in the pacific in WWII. He was overseas for 5 years. He worked his way through school to get a PhD and reach the top of his profession (academia) and still never made a lot of money. My parents raised 5 kids and we are all hard working and have done pretty well, although we didn’t have the opportunities my parents did to pull themselves out of poverty with the GI bill and low interest rates.

    I was born shortly after WWII ended. Is that history what you’re so relieved not to share? What “boomer sensibilities” do you think I was raised with? My parents pinched every penny, worked their asses off and I admire them for what they did. I’ve been through a lot in my life too, and I’ve worked damn hard. What is it about my age group that I’m supposed to be ashamed of?

  290. (the Other Sheri): I wanted to get my 2 cents in here before the comments are closed. First off – I am a boomer; I was born in the same year as Hillary, 1947. To say that the “selection” of Obama is the boomers fault is wrong! I dont’ understand how anyone can blame an entire generation for what has happened! I am with BB; Mawm; MyIQ and others here in ths thread.

    Selecting Obama is nothing about Nostalgia. It is about Power. That ought to be clear enough for anyone.

    Now I’ll go back to reading the comments in this thread.

  291. Yes, Laurie. But the strange part was that Obama
    trashed that era and generation for being too excessive.
    Because we were in rebellion against corporatism.

    Those really paying attention didn’t support him. But
    so many were fooled.

    And who didn’t want change this time around.

  292. Hi all.

    PUMA’S agree – Obama selected, not elected.

    Plenty of people were fooled, but WE WERE NOT!

    I’m glad we exist, whatever our ages.

    Keep the faith!

  293. Laurie,

    I sold batik T-shirts, too, in the seventies. I sold a batch of
    about 100 to Bloomingdale’s. I could work at home, with
    my kids playing in the next room.

    I did batik wall-hangings, too. So fun.

  294. bb – nothing to be ashamed of, I’m just grateful to not have been a part of all that. My parents were born in the “trough” period — during WW2 before the baby boom. They were too young or too old to participate much in the Civil Rights stuff of the sixties – besides they had young babies to feed. So we were raised with a kind of conservative pragmatism — neither the idealism associated with boomers, nor the self-sacrifice etc. associated with the so-called greatest generation. Even though I’m “Gen-X” I never fully resonated with them because Gen-X are supposed the children of baby boomers. I was not

  295. Yowza. Coming in late and catching up on the thread.

    I liked Prolix’s painting metaphor…

    Born in 1961, I was a tail-end Boomer, and I can tell you fer sure: I had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with getting Obama elected. Quite the contrary 🙂

    I’m not going to rehash the argument–you’ve all covered the broad strokes and corners. Just sendin’ a little love:

    ((((bb))))

    (((rd)))))

  296. (The other Sheri): Pat Johnson said: Pat Johnson, on January 28th, 2009 at 10:15 am Said:
    Allow me to repeat myself:

    Obama was elected by the media along with the AAs, the stupid stupids, the latte drinking elites, the Hillary haters, the GOP who hated their own candidate, Bush fatigue, the uninformed, the DNC, and I am sure a few Baby Boomers here and there. These people are known as Obots.

    Carving out one group as “responsible” is not.

    AND THEREIN SAYS IT ALL!

  297. Why is ageism more acceptable than classism or sexism?

  298. speak truth-yes, it was fun.
    I was living out in the country. Sold stuff in Sardinia, Elba, and Milan. (100 to Bloomingdale’s wow!!)

  299. {{Fif}}

    You’ve got me, Sweet Sue. Why is homophobia still OK? Why is is acceptable to hate fat people?

  300. I’m Thomas4Clinton and I am a boomer (1952). Yes, I drank the Kool-Aid once but saw the light in 1986 and since then stayed true to the cause of the Constitution The Bill of Rights and the Rule of Law with maybe a little common sense.

    Best to all.

  301. I was born in 1950 and too young to do anything for the civil rights struggle except grow up with as little prejudice as possible.
    On the other hand, “The Feminine Mystique” was published when I was twelve and I devoured my mother’s copy.
    Feminism was always my cause.
    I guess if we’re blaming boomers for Obama’s ascent, then boomer Hillary Clinton will have to shoulder most of that blame for “running such a lousy campaign.”
    Maybe she threw the Nomination?
    There are heroes and morons in every demographic.
    First I was dismissed because I’m an old bitter knitter whose time was through.
    Now, I derided because the old bitter knitters are responsible for Obama’s power grab.
    What the hell?

  302. SweetSue, on January 28th, 2009 at 1:16 pm

    well said!!

  303. speaktruth —

    we grew up on idealism of Woodstock gen here in SoCal — out here we have Haight Ashbury?

    but Woodstock music/idealism is totally ingrained in us, I think….

    Crosby Stills, and so forth. If I had been back east and a young “run away” I might have gone to Woodstock?

    If you guys remember that TV show “The Loud Family” — I grew up with them. So out here we were totally influenced by PEACE, LOVE and all of that. I think we just all went to work in the “shoulder pad” era —

    Not sure how it happened, but it did!

    I tend to think of the fashion refs because that was my first job — funny to put it into context of the advertising and mags of the time — or the clothes. I saw a picture of Caroline K wearing Gunne Sax –?

    She looked exactly like my friends and I at that age — the long natural hair — the Victorian style dresses —

    later came the Dittos — but, we wore men’s 501’s and flip flops — I still wear jeans like that and flip flops!

    this gen of ours is very young! we stayed really young I think because we have so much idealism!

    we really do!

    we really meant to change the world?

    I think all of us did! In our own ways — and that is why the last 8 years were so difficult –we don’t want a repeat of that again.

    My grandparents were just like the Reagans — they were.

    My mom was without politics — but she loved JFK —

    I became a Dem in college when I first voted — and Reagan won.

    So, we have been waiting… for the person who embodied “us” — that was Hillary to many of us—- she and Bill — I’ve seen the pix of them in the web as young hippies! Yeah — they could have been to Woodstock, themselves!

    Out here it is all about green politics and surf culture?

    It meshes with Hawaii in a way in SoCal — but, probably not Chicago?

    They seem quite foreign to us in CA. But so would Washington, I’m sure. We are more like Gen X? Musically and stylistically — but, we aren’t them. We are in a really unique place in our gen — but — in more conservative areas of the country they might not understand us?

    At all.

    When I was about thirteen it was all “back to the land” remember that? Woodstock gen did a lot of that!

    But somehow, some of us never got the chance once we got chained to corporate life….

    We never forgot our “roots” though, did we?

    Nope.

    Our faded jeans roots! 501 style!

  304. Credit the 60’s generation with a relaxed dress code and baaaad language. Both of which are popular to this day!

  305. I’m a boomer and was strongly opposed to the appointment of Caroline. Please don’t assume all or even most boomers are pathetically clinging to the idea of resurrecting Camelot.

    I live in Illinois and the only people that I (vaguely) know of who are Obots are my son’s age. Anyone that I know who is around my age who voted for Obama did so out of desperation, out of fear of how one more Republican administation would absolutely destroy whatever remains of this country’s economic foundation. They didn’t give a rat’s butt what color his skin is.

    The last I checked, George Soros is 78, Ted Kennedy will soon be 77, John Kerry is 65 (missed the boom by 3 years), David Shuster is 41, Rachel Maddow is 35, and Kos was born in 1971. When Obama referred to the “excesses” of the 1960’s and 70’s and his supporters called anyone who didn’t support him a dried-up dead-ender, it seems to me that a certain generation was being singled-out. This line of attack served him well in getting the nomination and I believe he thinks it will continue to help him when he discusses his plans to cut Medicare and SS.

    Bobby was great, but John was my childhood hero. We had no health insurance because my father always had lousy jobs and I was always afraid that I would croak during one of my asthma attacks. When JFK talked about Medicare, I thought that was great – first the elderly would get health care and then the rest of us. I’m still waiting. JFK had plans to withdraw from Vietnam (he had withdrawn 1,000 of the 17,000 troops when he was murdered) and next thing, we had LBJ who got us Medicare and into a war that gave billions to military contractors and, in turn, gave us Nixon and Reagan. JFK may have been on drugs and fooling around, but he knew a quagmire when he saw one. Does Obama re: Afghanistan and possibly Pakistan?

    As far as Gillibrand’s stance on granting driver’s licenses to people who are here illegally – does anyone remember what happened to Gov. Gray? The last attempt by the Illinois legislature to grant driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants came right after Gray went belly up and Arnold became so popular. The bill was narrowly defeated and the issue hasn’t been raised again.

    I think Paterson did the right thing – he gave Caroline enough rope.

  306. I realize I’m writing toward the end of these comments and have read with interest the various defenses of being a baby boomer, of which I am one (56 yrs. old). I appreciate so much being able to hear the many voices and read the opinions of all of us. It is stimulating and exhilarating!

    The portion of this essay I want to highlight and comment on is this paragraph:

    “She (Kirsten Gillibrand) represented a conservative district. She had some pretty unpleasant conservative positions…She has a couple of years to make a transformation from being the rep from a beautiful but rural section of New York to being a senator who represents the vast majority of New Yorkers who are progressive.”

    As a resident of “a beautiful but rural section of New York” (the Finger Lakes region), I thought that statement sounded condescending. Especially the “transformation” sentiment. It seems like a way to say that urban dwellers know better what is right for the rest of us and that rural dwellers are just, you know, a little backwards, not as intelligent in some way.

    I think all of us, rural and urban have something important to bring to the table. Just because 1/2 of the population, and growing, live in an urban setting, for a variety of reasons, does not make the needs of the urban dweller more important or progressive than the needs of the rural dweller. We all need each other. For humans to live in harmony with the earth we need to respect and protect our rural areas and the people who live there, as well as, take care of the people who are increasingly living in urban settings. One is not better than or more important than the other.

    Thank you.

  307. Laurie,

    Sardinia, Elba, and Milan – double wow! How did you
    do that pre-internet? Do you still?

    vbonnaire,

    I love California. I almost moved out there several times,
    but something always changed that.

    I still have hope of moving there, but this mess in the
    economy is putting a big damper on all my dreams. Is
    everything still so expensive there? Houses, for example?

  308. Well. the Terminator has done? to our state.

    Now would be the time to buy a house out here — no kidding!

    All of them are up for grabs, practically.

    It’s weird. I am ready to go “back to the land” in New Mex!
    maybe.

    But, we are a pretty cool state — we have good weather and a lot of land for everyone. The state is big and there are many regions and ideas out here.

    One thing about here, if you are a gardener — you can!

    If you want a city — San Fran, LA, San Diego are coastal places — if you want a ranch? You can find that too — inland —
    there is even snow! at the higher altitudes…

    Northern CA and Southern CA are very different in mindset?

    Northern is very sophisticated — San Fran?
    European.

    So cal? Beachy.

    I would love to see the east coast — Vermont, upstate NY, Maine, and also the whole coast all the way to Florida. The whole country actually — I’d like to see all of it — all the regions — just to see it all!

    I’d love to see all the old architecture in NY or the fab plays they put on!

    Wow.

    San Fran is the Lit place for CA.

    LA is the Hollywood place?

    It’s a really big mixture out here of all kinds of things — we tend to get along with each other, too.

    Ah well —– Someday all the PUMAS will have a BIG PARTY!

    Someplace!

    We will!

  309. Baby Boomers is a very misleading classification if you actually look at all the people you know who would qualify.

    Like RD I am at the tail end (well so is the O) and have very different set of nostalgia points than two of my brothers who are in the heart of the baby boom demographic . They seem to have the most nostalgia for the JFK era. My older bothers are “pre-boomer” – and have yet another set of points. But none could figure out this whole Caroline thing at all – it just would not be in the best interest of the residents of NY.

    That said – I would argue that its the “kool kids” subgroup within the heart of the boomer generation that really embrace Obama. And like all the “kool-kids” they tried to make others of their own generation feel left out and stupid if they did not see the “Light and Right of O”. Most of the boomers I know who voted for O did so becuase he had a D after his name and they did not want to be considered to be – well – you know Rs. They let the “kool kids” make them feel guilty for thinking outside the “accepted” box. Many others, in particular those who run their own small businesses saw the writing on the wall and told their contemporaries they did not care what was “IN” – they saw though the smoke and did not check the box for O even if he had a D.

    In fact, I think that is O really played to the “kool” factor across all generations – hence why his entire campaign and staff seem to have the look and feel of an extended MAC vs PC commercial in which the MAC is “kool” and poor PC is frumpy, old and well – has to do the drudge work like budgets and planning and statistical analysis and not just surf the web and make “kool” pictures.

    Caroline, like O, is viewed by this subgroup of “kool kids” as just the Bee’s Knees (yes – my grandmother actually used this expression) and they are never going to admit that the “not so” kool are right.

    In the end its far more complicated than just age and income and education. O and his groupies a have never really left school – have not truely matured. They prefer the insulation of the “click” mentality. They do not want to reach out to others or across any aisles.

    Note: I use both Mac and PC – but the PC is what has to be used for the most part for work especially when exchanging info with larger organizations and, of course, government agencies. Why supposedly “tech” savvy people did not realize that they would have no choice but to work within the IBM PC environment at the White House – well they must not be truely multi platform savvy but just MAC groupies who did not do their homework.

  310. Pat Johnson, on January 28th, 2009 at 10:15 am Said:
    Allow me to repeat myself:

    Obama was elected by the media along with the AAs, the stupid stupids, the latte drinking elites, the Hillary haters, the GOP who hated their own candidate, Bush fatigue, the uninformed, the DNC, and I am sure a few Baby Boomers here and there. These people are known as Obots.

    Carving out one group as “responsible” is not.

    ………….OKAy I am a Boomer ,same age as Hillary and I think the above says it all,but I don’t understand why anyone wants to blame boomers, many Yes, but a majority I would say no. I volunteered for Hillary and even afterward belonged to group out of D.C…….the people I volunteered with were a majority of boomers and beleive it or not many men. We can’t count people like Kennedy,Kerry etc in the same group ,they are more power than than boomer! even after tfter the primary i couldn’t vote for maccain or OB so I wrote hillary in and to this day I see a con man in the white house ……
    I have also contacted people in the Dem. party about the CK issue and said it was no different than Blago in the way Kennedy and the powers were pushing her and I am from Pa. .It just ticked me off the way they critcised Bush but are using the same tactics now! the only thing that changed is the party……… they played Bushes campaign promises and OB’s and they were the same old, same old just a different name.

    It isn’t fair to generalise

  311. did I say something offensive?

    by the way, the powers that be in the Dem. party that pushed Ob were so envious that Bill Clinton managed to get elected and then do so well ,getting reelected and managing to get many things done while the Repugs and some Dem. tried to hang him any chance they got. Then when hillary gets the votes she got ,in spite of them backing OB ,they were re pissed off again and here we are , the RBC meeting of cutthroats are representative of this,but not because they are boomers just cutthroats.

  312. why is my first comment in moderation?

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