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Obama’s asking the GOP for advice on…the ECONOMY???

he-resigns

But…but, isn’t that the party who royally screwed the economy from 2000-2008?  This is like a farmer asking the fox for advice on building a more secure chicken coop.

Obama seeks GOP help on economy; McConnell hopeful

By LIZ SIDOTI, Associated Press Writer

WASHINGTON – President Barack Obama is making good on his promise to hear from Republicans as he pushes for swift passage and bipartisan backing of his massive $825 billion plan intended to jolt the country out of recession.

The unanswered question: Whether the new Democratic president will actually listen to GOP concerns about the amount of spending and the tax approach — and modify his proposal accordingly.

With the economy worsening, Obama was making his first trip to Capitol Hill since his swearing-in last week for two private afternoon sessions Tuesday with House and Senate Republicans. A former Republican congressman who is a member of Obama’s Cabinet, Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood, was accompanying the president.

“The goal is to seek their input. He wants to hear their ideas,” White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said. “If there are good ideas — and I think he assumes there will be — we will look at those ideas.”

“I think the president is genuinely serious about this,” Gibbs added.

The presidential spokesman would not, however, reveal what concessions Obama may be willing to make, if any, to demonstrate his seriousness about securing Republican support.[edited by me: oh yes he did, see below in next blockquote.] Gibbs, however, noted that there already are tax provisions in the measure, mostly small business cuts, that are direct GOP suggestions to Obama and his economic team.

DakiniKat, our resident Conflucian Economist, wrote about the dangers of tax cuts at this time in herTax Cuts Don’t Cut It or Cure It post. I’m no economist – but it seems to me that having a job stimulates the economy, not more of the same what Bush did.   When people are working, they can pay their bills, rent, mortgages, insurance, spend on consumer items, invest their extra pennies tucked away etc.

But WHAT is being done to make sure people don’t lose their jobs, and for those that lost their jobs (hello, me!) how can we help them to get new ones?  Not a damn thing.

This part of Liz’ article just made me angry as hell:

In a sign that Obama may be willing to compromise, officials said the president made a personal appeal to House Democrats to jettison from the package family planning funds for low-income people. Republicans have criticized the provision as an example of wasteful spending that would neither create jobs nor otherwise improve the economy. A decision on the provision was expected Tuesday.

Get that?  JETTISON.  As in, throw overboard.  Well, no soup for Planned Parenthood!  But Faith-Based initiatives are safe and tucked wonderfully under Obama’s wing.  Here’s where that “family planning to low income people”  money’s going to:

(From USA Today)

Many people assumed that any Democrat would restore the secular work of government and strive to remove religion from politics. But Obama has indicated that he intends to expand, not eliminate, the faith-based programs. Indeed, he has stated that Bush’s faith-based office “never fulfilled its promise” due to a lack of funding. This “lack of funding” cost this country $2.2 billion in 2007 alone.

Obama reportedly plans to change the name from the “Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives” into his own “White House Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships.” The old office would become 12 offices to carry out the expanded program. Not exactly the change that many secularists and liberals were hoping for.

Again, Obama is NOT interested in helping the middle class, the jobless, the uninsured, or for that matter, the liberal-minded.  He’s not interested in liberal principles or philosophies, since Obama considered them as “excesses of the 60s & 70s.”

But Obama will bend over & kiss the Republicans’ tooshies by doing away with programs that religious zealots have been fighting to eliminate since Jerry Falwell created the “Moral Majority.”   Yes he can!

I can see Obama making a deal with Republicans & PNAC Neo-Con crew, promising to carry out their agenda so long as he wins.  Is it any wonder WHY Obama had a secret dinner with Bill Kristol & friends?

Now I have no doubt.  Obama’s hell-bent on being Ronald Reagan with a tan & Caesar cut.

obamas-daddy1

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312 Responses

  1. He’s not a Democrat. In my county, we have the Dem Party of _____ County, AND the Obama Party of _______ County. The purpose of the Obama Party (funded in many cities by Obama) is to push his agenda through Congress.

    So we officially have three parties – R, D and O.

  2. I’m reading about the World Economic Forum in Davos (Obama will not attend but will send Summers and James Jones (nominee for National Security Advisor)

    and they actually write, “Mr. Obama’s international outlook and background, including his school days in Indonesia”

    His elementary school days! It’s like the entire world has come to love the kool-aid. It’s replaced wine on the international scene.

  3. Jmac – are you serious???

    I have to find out if in Tampa it’s the same (it has to be like that all over the US if it’s in your county.)

  4. Great post, SM!

    This struck me as hilarious:

    The unanswered question: Whether the new Democratic president will actually listen to GOP concerns about the amount of spending and the tax approach — and modify his proposal accordingly.

    In whose mind is this question unanswered? Didn’t his original proposal contain $300 billion in tax cuts?

    In order to predict Obama’s next actions, all we have to think is: “The GOP got him elected by funding him, staying home on Election Day and letting the fundiegelicals vote for him.”

    Will he be the worst Democratic President we ever had? Yes, he will!

  5. For eight years under Bush, the economic policy was tax cuts, and more tax cuts.

    Isn’t it time to try something else?

  6. Family planning (birth control) for families that cannot afford it is too important to be tossed overboard. It makes no sense. One would think anti-abortion folks would want this available to prevent unwanted pregnancies. Makes my head hurt.

  7. MadamaB:

    Thank you! Obama personally asked House Democrats to JETTISON the Family Planning funds, aka, ELIMINATE THEM so he can pay for the Faith Based funding crap.

    Now Obama can prostrate himself to his Republican overlords and say “HERE, I have done this …for you!”

  8. SM – here’s just one of the posts on Obama’s “Organizing for America”

    Congressional Democrats also are privately alarmed by Obama’s future fundraising plans. The Los Angeles Times reported that “Organizing for America,” Obama’s new organization, “will employ a full-time staff of hundreds of professional organizers — possibly an average of between one and two workers per congressional district in certain politically important states.”

    The possibility that Obama will have a separate fundraising vehicle, outside the Democratic National Committee, which he already controls, has led to “delicate discussions” with party leaders on Capitol Hill.

  9. giving free birth control to low income women = less public spending in the long run Republican NitWITS!!!!!

  10. Kirsten Gillibrand to be confirmed in a few minutes (if I’ve got my time correct).

  11. Jmac – This is what we’ve been saying since early last year.

    Obama is a tyrant forming his own army. He’s already friggin president! WHAT MORE COULD HE POSSIBLY WANT????

  12. sm: funding black churches = paying for GOTV efforts in a black district, just fyi

  13. Is any of the bailout money going to faith-based organizations? If so, is there a link?

  14. And, Dak, you are right, if it was for viagra it would be a done deal.

    On the Davos meeting: “Some of the big Wall Street names who attended last year, including Dick Fuld of Lehman Brothers, will not be back because they no longer have jobs.”

  15. Right on, SM. Let’s hope he resigns.

  16. dakini

    We need to find some pretty pictures and graphs to explain to these nitwits that the money they save on contraception will be spent on providing medical coverage, schooling and child care, food stamps, and housing aid.

  17. (lurking)

  18. Of course the burden of inadequate family planning falls more heavily on women, especially for low income people. But who cares about those b*tches? The sl*ts shouldn’t be having sex. Oh, many are married? Well, they should stay home with their kids. If they got out of the workforce, there’d be jobs for the men.

    And this is the guy who campaigned on the malarkey about his single mom on foodstamps. Maybe Obama realizes that if the pill had been around in late 1960, he might not be here.

    I’m waiting for the next Obama press release on low-income people: “Are there no prisons? And the Union workhouses. Are they still in operation? I help to support the establishments. If they would rather die, they had better do it, and decrease the surplus population.”

  19. Regency – so it’s a quid pro quo.

    The Chicago Way.

  20. MadamaB–I agree wholeheartedly that gov’t should not be involved in faithbased initiatives. But I come from a different perspective, since I am a faith based person. Gov’t involvement/funding brings increased regulation, increased regulation brings interference and interference creates watered down programs swamped in paper work.

    I do not support “faithbased” programs that are more about propagating faith than helping people; they frighten me. I am thinking of programs like the refugee programs, disaster relief, medical and educational programs, all of which work better without government interference.

    I totally support the family planning funding.

  21. House Republicans are rallying to vote against O’s economic plan. If he’s including tax cuts to appease Republicans and they are going to fight the plan anyway, why bother?

    He must believe tax cuts work. He must agree the funding for poor women doesn’t work.

    But that’s okay, he obviously smart, he went to school in Indonesia.

  22. Didn’t he just tell Republicans last week something to the effect, “I won, go blow it out of your nose”

  23. Just got off the phone with Representative Boucher’s aide, I’d start calling house representatives and raising cain.

  24. birdgal, on January 27th, 2009 at 12:21 pm Said:
    Is any of the bailout money going to faith-based organizations? If so, is there a link?

    Some will go by way of ACORN for sure.

  25. This is what KILLS ME:

    Birth Control pills aren’t prescribed to women JUST to avoid becoming pregnant.

    Birth Control pills/IUDs also help regulate irregular menstrual cycles and are used as treatment for ovarian cysts

  26. http://www.Foxnews.com:

    Republicans Object to Stimulus Dollars for ACORN

  27. is there money actually going to faith based initiatives in the stimulus plan?

  28. the money they save on contraception will be spent on providing medical coverage, schooling and child care, food stamps, and housing aid

    I suspect Obama and his Republican friends plan to cut the money for these as well. See the Dickens quote above.

  29. We should be encouraging people who don’t have the means to support themselves, let alone a child, to PLAN. That’s why it is called family planning.

    Next up Pelosi.

  30. Spiritof76 – then they should give that money to FEMA. Let FEMA help bring on the different community partners to help in those cases.

  31. sister of ye

    Perhaps women will wake up from their stupor then. This is what a feminist looks like indeed!

  32. Many people assumed that any Democrat would restore the secular work of government and strive to remove religion from politics. But Obama has indicated that he intends to expand, not eliminate, the faith-based programs. Indeed, he has stated that Bush’s faith-based office “never fulfilled its promise” due to a lack of funding. This “lack of funding” cost this country $2.2 billion in 2007 alone.

    Are we surprised? Obama is, like other members of socially conservative AA churches, a social conservative and believes that the government should help fund AA churches so that they can do social work in the communities. Now someone call me a racist, go ahead. I am sure he would say that churches in poor white communities should get money too and that indeed they would…. but my point is that this all comes from his training as a community organizer in the AA community in Chicago.
    Personally I spend many hours a week in church but I do not want the government involved and I do not want my church involved in my church either.
    When the hell did the democratic party decide to cater to the needs of a small percentage of the population?

    This makes me gag. I can not state strongly enough how disgusted and how betrayed I feel about my party.

    Woman’s party anyone? Why the heck not at this point. All women can join, but it will be a religious free zone and choices will be based on the constitution and on rational thought on law in the USA…leave your religion home and I will do the same.

  33. PUMA-SF: HUGS!!!!!

    Yep! Hope is all we got right now.

    I hope he gets sick of all the crap & resigns his spot to Hillary & decides to form his own church like Rev. Sun-Yung Moon did.

  34. Not sure where to post it, and I apologize that it’s OT …. BUT… I thought the Conflucians would be interested in knowing that Juan Cole totally and completely annihilates our dear old friend Taylor Marsh in his blog today. It is brutal. He spanks her so hard she won’t be sitting right for a week.

    Background: Apparently the two have debated issues in the past, respectfully. Now, for me the very thought that Marsh considered herself a worthy debate partner to Cole is just…well it’s just…words fail me. Cole is brilliant, speaks about 100 languages, has lived and worked in the countries he writes about, is a recognized scholar on the ME…yadda yadda. Marsh, as we all know, is an angry, bitter hack without the capacity to think beyond the latest Obama-spun slogan.

    That said, their latest disagreement centers on Obama’s decision to give the go-ahead to bomb Pakistan. Cole was extremely critical of OZero and Marsh’s response was to scream at him NOT on substantive grounds but because (ohhh you’ll love this) he DARED to criticize The One !! And that cannot be tolerated!!

    Well, you should really read it to see how a gentleman and a scholar takes to task a dimwit and a harpy:

    http://www.juancole.com/2009/01/cole-marsh-debate-on-obamas-bombing-of.html

  35. Well, given the number of Democrats who supported conservative economic policies in recent years, I guess I’m not surprised. Well, maybe I’m surprised because he was supposed to be such a radical. Hold Them Accountable Part II: If Conservatives Caused the Economic Crisis, They Had a Lot of Help from Democrats!

  36. To be fair though

    Hillary was also pro faith based programs, as was Edwards. I am not as aggravated about the faith based office as I am about the family planning stuff being removed.

  37. This is what KILLS ME:

    Birth Control pills aren’t prescribed to women JUST to avoid becoming pregnant.

    Birth Control pills/IUDs also help regulate irregular menstrual cycles and are used as treatment for ovarian cysts

    yes, but here is the bottom line…. IT IS NO ONE’S DARN BUSINESS WHY BIRTH CONTROL PILLS ARE PRESCRIBED.

  38. SM, I’m so glad you’re back. I really missed your posts.

  39. CWaltz –

    Let’s be real.

    Obama’s throwing out the low income family planning funds, but is EXPANDING Bush’s Faith-Based initiatives?

    What else is going to be next? Medicare? Social Security?

  40. Tell me what the black churches in Chicago do for the AA community in Chicago Teresa in PA

  41. cwaltz… this is one area where I disagreed with senator clinton and would have said so….however I do not believe she would have taken this step. Now would she have had social conservatives speaking at her inauguration or on her staff.

  42. Dissenting Justice – the article you refer to also blames Hillary for supporting the war. Dems might have played a part in de-regulation, but the economy belongs to Republicans and George W. Bush.

  43. TeresaInPA: BINGO.

    Katiebird: thank you! Now that I’m Ms. Laid-Off (but at least I have my health), I have more time to hang out here.

  44. CWaltz, “Hillary was also pro faith based programs, as was Edwards. I am not as aggravated about the faith based office as I am about the family planning stuff being removed.”

    I am against it no matter who proposes it. I think it’s flat out wrong.

    ALSO (and on a totally different topic)

    I’m also against Senators abandoning the Senate for years to run for higher office. Let them resign to run. And if they don’t, then make them take leave without pay.

    Do you realize how much we spent on salaries for the Senators who ran for the Presidency?

  45. Afrocity, I do not know. What I do know is that he said that in his days as community organizer he worked with the churches as his primary activity.
    I am guessing it had to do with registering voters.

  46. Okay, thanks because I thought you lived here at one time.

  47. There is no money available for low-income family planning, but there IS money available for what?

    ACORN! $4.19 billion for what they are now calling “Neighborhood Restabilization,” but it’s really ACORN, and we are paying for Obama’s 2012 campaign. It’s all about the longevity and legacy of Dear Leader folks.

  48. AC, no, but I had an ex who worked for Acorn in south florida, another AA man. I am making some assumptions about things based on what Obama said and what Chris told me about organizing in Miami.

  49. SM: Another astounding “nail on the head” essay. We are so f*cked!!!

  50. fif:

    Acorn is now “Organizing for America” – see Jmac’s comment (it’s the first one on this post).

    PAT:

    🙂 THank you! And yes, we are F___cked.

    Next up, SOCIAL SECURITY!

    I’m planning to work til I drop dead anyway. I might have to.

  51. oops, just saw that Catarina scooped me on ACORN. Sorry of the repeat.

  52. sm: are you saying that Obama’s whole plan to restructure the Dem Party locally and statewide to push through his agenda is associated with ACORN?! Duh–I don’t know why I thought it was part of his political organization, but did not realize the obvious–that those two things are inevitably integrated.

    Unbelievable. The Dems are so weak, they are allowing the Party to be completely absorbed by this thug and his corrupt associates.

  53. You don’t spend your way of a recession.

  54. fif – at least it didn’t work in NY. Obama wanted Caroline. She would have worked with him.

  55. fif
    that Is what you call a “post and screw”-sorry!

    😉

  56. FIF:

    Yes, it looks like ACORN and Obama for America merged to “Organizing for America”

    So not only are Obama’s campaign funds still fueling the propaganda machine, they are also getting bailout money because of ACORN.

  57. One of the things they are suggesting for Social Security is extending the age to 67! Jesus H. Christ! If few can afford healthcare, how they hell do they expect people at 67, who have worked all their lives, raised families, stressed out over this economy, are unable to afford a movie ticket let alone cable tv rates, to keep on producing?

    I am older now and recognize that my energy level is often flagging. By age 67 I just hope that I can still see, smell, hear let alone get up each morning, chip the ice off the car and be able to produce.

    For those who wish to work until that age, fine. But for those who have put in a lifetime of labor, they should have the decency to be treated with respect.

    A pox on them all if this goes through!

  58. screw obama and the train he rode in on, literally

  59. I am being real.

    All of the candidates were going to expand the faith based initiative, Clinton, Obama, Edwards, McCain…they were all going to keep the office. They are all on the record with that position.

    I can except it even if I disagree with it.

    Social Security is already on the table. Pelosi is going to “help” him work on that issue.

    What I do find astounding is that a) it is evidently Christian to encourage people to bring children into the world that you don’t have the means to care for and are going to complain to high holy heaven about having to pay for b) that people who complain about social spending and the lack of responsibilty would not see the advantage of low income individuals having access to the means to plan and potentially get themselves on solid footing BEFORE bringing a child into the world.

    All I hear from these people is social spending costs too much. blah blah blah Do they really think the way to decrease social spending is to bring MORE low income people into the world that lack a safety net? it defies logic.

  60. And just to put the cherry on the proverbial cake, they are now predicting another major snowstorm for my area with an accumulation of another 5-8 inches followed by sleet and freezing rain!

    Shoot me now!

  61. Pat:

    Do you know what companies are doing here in FL?

    They are laying off people over the age of 50 because they are closer to retiring age.

    During my previous stint, I helped 100s of people apply for MedicAid & food stamps because in FL, people have to apply via computer, no phone, no office apps,ALL INTERNET).

    The majority of these people did not have computer skills so the owners gave that as a free service as a goodwill gesture. They were mostly working class boomers between 50-65 years old who were suddenly laid off.

    It’s a catastrophe. I can safely say that at this rate, we’ll end up like Iceland if Democrats continue to kowtow to Republicans.

  62. Clinton was going to expand faith-based initiatives? Is there a link of some kind?

  63. “Dear boss, please let me off work Tuesday and Friday for my dialysis treadment.”

    They can SAY people have to work but the reality is that we’ll shift people to Disability Retirement.

    Oh? Are we changing the rules for that too?

  64. SM: It is a tragedy for whomever this effects. You are raising your child as a single parent. The same difficulties you face are faced by millions, no matter the age. The only thing in your favor, however, is your age. The bitter and sad part are those who are closer to retirement but are not quite there.

    Of course if they raise the age to 80+, there will be no such thing as retirement. Just another day at the salt mines.

    I hate these people who did this to us. All of them.

  65. But where is the middle ground if the government feel that we must have deficit spending just to get anything done? If this is allowed to continue, the debt load becomes too great and the country will go bankrupt.

  66. Pat, I’m guessing that this raise in the age of retirement is for those exact same kids who are going to inherit the worst of our debts. — The ones who aren’t born yet.

  67. Bet Obama’s illegal aunt by some convoluted relationship is receiving all the benefits she can. Probably SS, or disability, Section 8, Medicaid, whatever handouts she does not deserve. She has overstayed by 4 years but what the hell. She is semi sort of related to him through his father and to bring this up would be just another case of r*cism on my part.

    To hell with the poor schlub who has cleaned toilets all his/her life and got up everyday to get to work. Those expectations do not count. But let’s all feel sorry for Auntie who is here illegally and benefiting royally. I can’t stand it!!!

  68. I get aggravated with the history revisionists that insist we are a “Christian” nation. Patrick Henry became a governor folks, Jefferson won. We aren’t a Christian nation, as much as we are a “free to worship as you wish” nation(Read:Statute of Religious freedom passed). Deal with it.

  69. Jmac,

    Here’s one

    http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2005/01/20/sen_clinton_urges_use_of_faith_based_initiatives/

    ALL of the candidates were on the record as pro faith based initiative.

  70. Unless “Christian Nation” means doing unto others, I fail to see it. Unless “doing unto others” means a kick in the teeth and taking all your grubby hands can steal, we are not a Christian Nation under any guise.

    We are “we the people”, or at least we once were. Just refer to us in the future as the “clean up” brigade since these tools who led us here will never be faced with paying off the debt.

  71. CWaltz – I think we are slowly but surely leaning away from “we are a Christian nation.” The museum I was just in this weekend had as dates on some exhibits BCE = Before the Common Era. CE and BCE are replacing AD (after death) and BC (before Christ) even in American museums.

    It was news to me – I’d never heard of BCE.

  72. Pat,

    Same here on the freezing rain. Schools are closed today. So far just slush though.

  73. afrocity, on January 27th, 2009 at 1:25 pm Said: Edit Comment

    But where is the middle ground if the government feel that we must have deficit spending just to get anything done? If this is allowed to continue, the debt load becomes too great and the country will go bankrupt.

    You mean like Iceland?

    If we keep up the spending & tax cutting, they’ll be no money left for anything.

  74. sm77, yikes, that’s exactly what I was just thinking: Iceland.

  75. katiebird, on January 27th, 2009 at 1:26 pm Said: Edit Comment

    Pat, I’m guessing that this raise in the age of retirement is for those exact same kids who are going to inherit the worst of our debts. — The ones who aren’t born yet.

    So THAT’s why Obama wants to do away with low-income family planning funding!

  76. Wait, so the president is willing to talk with the GOP to see what issues they have with stimulus package, see what different ideas they have, and this is a BAD thing? Seriously?

    Nobody said he’s going to do exactly what the GOP says, and I’m sure nobody here thinks every idea the GOP has is bad (otherwise why vote for McCain which many of you have), so why is listening to them suddenly a horrible thing?

    As for cutting out the family planning portion, I think most would agree this is needed, but this should NEVER have been tacked on to the stimulus package to begin with. Isn’t this what both Obama and McCain talked about eliminating, all these extra spending on projects tacked onto bills that have absolutely nothing to do with the original bill?

    Remove it, and come out with a new bill specifically for family planning, and do things the right way.

  77. Not sure if anyone here will care, but Sarah Palin started a PAC today…

    http://www.sarahpac.com

  78. Let’s encourage Brad and Angelina to keep adopting those kids. One of them will have to be responsible for taking care of them in their old age.

    I am off to see “Benjamin Button” tonight. At least I can stare at the beauty of Brad while the rest of the world prepares for hell in a handbasket.

  79. We very nearly were a Christian nation. Jefferson was rather humorous and suggested they should “pray for Henry’s death”. If Henry’s bill had passed we’d have been paying a tax to support all Christian churches. I wonder if all the Christian nation folks are aware of that little tidbit. Taxes and Christianity……oh the humanity.

  80. BD,

    I donated to Sarah PAC.

    Greta said that the pic of Sarah giving her state of the state address with Todd Palin sitting in the audience feeding Trig a bottle was the picture of feminism and womens equality

  81. Pat J — I just read your comments on the now closed thread — LOVED THEM! Thank goodness we have Pat J around y’all.

  82. Thanks for the heads up, BD!

  83. I need to take a break and quit reading these essays in the morning. I am beginning to sound a little bit nuts myself!!!!

  84. Pat Johnson, on January 27th, 2009 at 1:12 pm Said:

    One of the things they are suggesting for Social Security is extending the age to 67! Jesus H. Christ!
    ***************
    66 is the “full benefit” retirement age now. Monthly benefits are on a “sliding scale” based on age of retirement. Every year that retirement is delayed from age 66, the monthly payment increased $80/month.

  85. The retirement age was raised IIRC in 1986.

  86. Thank you, sm, for your righteous indigation! What a spot-on post! Of course, Aldolf Reed, Jr. warned progressives about all this back in May. It still makes for excellent reading, although Reed was wrong about Obama’s ultimate electability (as he had no way of predicting the timing of the economic meltdown). Here’s just part of what he said back then.

    He’s a vacuous opportunist. I’ve never been an Obama supporter. I’ve known him since the very beginning of his political career, which was his campaign for the seat in my state senate district in Chicago. He struck me then as a vacuous opportunist, a good performer with an ear for how to make white liberals like him. I argued at the time that his fundamental political center of gravity, beneath an empty rhetoric of hope and change and new directions, is neoliberal.
    ….

    It may be instructive to look at the outfit where he did his “community organizing,” the invocation of which makes so many lefties go weak in the knees. My understanding of the group, Developing Communities Project, at the time was that it was simply a church-based social service agency. What he pushed as his main political credential then, to an audience generally familiar with that organization, was his role in a youth-oriented voter registration drive.

    The Obama campaign has even put out a misleading bio of Michelle Obama, representing her as having grown up in poverty on the South Side, when, in fact, her parents were city workers, and her father was a Daley machine precinct captain. This fabrication, along with those embroideries of the candidate’s own biography, may be standard fare, the typical log cabin narrative. However, in Obama’s case, the license taken not only underscores Obama’s more complex relationship to insider politics in Daley’s Chicago; it also underscores how much this campaign depends on selling an image rather than substance.

    Link

    Had I written the article, I would have revised the first sentence to read “He’s a vacuous opportist with an insatiable appetite for power and a deep-seated authoritarian streak.” But then I didn’t write the article.

  87. Also on Fox’s website they had this bit of info:

    Poisonous Testicles Send Diners to Hospital

  88. afrocity, on January 27th, 2009 at 12:26 pm Said:

    (lurking)

    And I was lurking, watching Afrocity lurk.

  89. When people retire they usually make room for the next guy in line. If they keep raising the retirement age they will be looking at two people at least sharing the same chair. Kind of crowded.

    The best solution is to just take all those over 60 and setting them off on an ice floe. Will solve all the problems going forward.

  90. Fredster lol

    (back to lurking)

    (I will be in permanent elderj mode)

  91. Pat Johnson, on January 27th, 2009 at 1:57 pm Said:

    The best solution is to just take all those over 60 and setting them off on an ice floe. Will solve all the problems going forward.

    No ice floes; global warming.

  92. Well, if there were Bush “tax cuts” – I sure didn’t see any. As a matter-of-fact, our taxes went up $10K in one year while earning the same money. There was no tax cut.

  93. BD, on January 27th, 2009 at 1:40 pm Said:
    Not sure if anyone here will care, but Sarah Palin started a PAC today…

    http://www.sarahpac.com

    ~~~~~~~~~yes i saw that, and im damned glad

  94. I prefer to deal with fact based documents downticket.

    When I say Hillary was pro faith based initiative, I do so based on HER words- not on others perceptions of her or her actions.

    I really do not care that a bunch of control minded religious zealots think she is a hypocrite because she doesn’t worship the way they do. I don’t worship the way they do either.

  95. Senator Clinton’s own words when asked

    “Should federal funds be given to faith-based (religious) organizations and initiatives?”

    Pro: “There is no contradiction between support for faith-based initiatives and upholding our constitutional principles.”

    “Sen. Clinton Urges Use of Faith-based Initiatives,” by Michael Jonas, The Boston Globe, Jan. 20, 2005

  96. I’m lurking too….

  97. Cwaltz:

    But Clinton also understands that BIRTH CONTROL (condoms, the pill, IUD, etc) is a part of HEALTHCARE and wouldn’t throw that like a bone for Republican Support.

    Only Obama the vacuous opportunist would.

  98. Obama met with GOP leaders and Democratic leaders to listen to both sides, and he told the GOP that he will not compromise on tax cuts, so the GOP leaders are saying they will not vote for the stimulus. Where in that article does it say that Obama will follow the GOP advice on tax cuts? Reading about the results of the meeting, it is clear that he is not following the GOP advice on tax cuts, so I’m not sure why you are saying he is.

  99. Inky – I wonder where’s Reed now? I’d love to see what he thinks of all this ass-kissing to Republicans?

  100. bostonboomer, on January 27th, 2009 at 2:36 pm Said:

    I’m lurking too….

    And I’ve got my eye on you too.

    Going back to lurking at the lurkers.

  101. Kristen –

    It’s not the tax cuts we’re talking about – Obama ORDERED House Democrats to cut Birth Control for Lower Income people – yet EXPANDED his Faith-based offices.

    If you don’t see anything wrong with that, then you can’t call yourself a Liberal. You’d be an Obot.

  102. i still can’t find the faith based stuff in the stimulus bill

  103. Besides, he agreed on $350,000,000,000 in tax-cuts already.

    That’s billion, Obat.

  104. We are so F**KED. Looks like Bush pushed us all into the toilet and Obama is flushing it.

  105. Dakini – the Faith Based offices are a done deal, they aren’t a part of the “stimulus” -. He’s expanded it and Bush spent almost 3Billion in those.

    My point was that there’s money to fund Faith-based programs but he cut Birth Control funds just to please Republicans.

  106. CWaltz, on January 27th, 2009 at 2:23 pm

    I posted it as proof that she is really spiritual but also does believe in doing good. BTW I know Hillary actually supported and helped fund faith based initiatives before Bush. She just didn’t do it in your face.

  107. dakinikat, could you post a link to the text of the stimulus bill? The link I found says the file is corrupted.

  108. FL VOter –

    Yep – we are F___CKED.

    But we PUMAs saw this coming, we knew that Obama was NO GOOD.

    We knew & intuitively saw his Republican Love from far away.

    And he’s only been President for 1 week.

  109. sm77: he hasn’t done anything because he hasn’t set a budget yet

  110. Oh, sorry. I thought the paragraphs about the effects of tax cuts meant you guys were upset that Obama was listening to the Republicans about tax cuts. He can listen to them, then he can decline, as he did. I agree about the birth control issue, he should have kept that in. But as for the tax cuts, they are going to low- and middle-income people who need them as well as working families as earned income tax credits which will also help people who need it. The GOP wants more tax cuts and Obama refused.

  111. KatieBird:

    PUMApac has it – check Murph’s article on it.

  112. If you are short on money here is one way to get some. Posted on Yahoo:

    http://www.yahoo.com/s/1021680

    Sell your hair and Plasma to make ends meet. Don’t think we are headed to a depression, but are in one now.

  113. Kristen – then if you read the post you’ll see that I’m not talking about that.

    I wish there were no Tax Cuts – HOW ABOUT SOME JOBS???

    How about using that money so companies can freeze layoffs?

    How about using that money to get us Universal Healthcare?

    Obama is Reagan’s Love Child with Clarence Thomas.

  114. it’s a right wing sponsored site but it just breaks down the stimulus plan, i didnt’ find anything opinion-related where I was searching

  115. i went to the spreadsheet with the department breakdowns … it was pretty useful

  116. kristen, actually they are the largest tax cuts to big business in the history of the United States …

  117. “Obama is Reagan’s Love Child with Clarence Thomas.”

    That is not a pleasant picture.

    (back to lurking)

  118. kirsten: if you look at my thread from yesterday, you’ll see the link to those numbers on the tax cuts … they’re not really going where you think they are

  119. afrocity: you’re really quite erudite when you lurk!!!

  120. Kirsten, this is a moderated thread and you’re about this | | close to being moderated out of here.

  121. The point is, why would you even ask the GOP?

    Their ideas are very well-known.

    Their ideas suck.

    Obama can pass “his” “liberal” bailout plan without them.

    What’s the excuse for going to them and asking for their advice?

    And by the way, Hillary never said she would expand faith-based initiatives.

  122. Where did you read that it’s the largest tax cut to big business in U.S. history? I’d like to read that source because I just read a piece in Business Week and another in the WSJ about Obama’s tax cut and both say that Bush’s 2001 tax cut was the largest. Bill Clinton gave billions in middle class tax cuts in the mid-1990s, and last year Hillary ran on her pledge to give billions in tax cuts to the middle class, one of the main reasons I supported her so much. Obama’s plan, like Hillary’s gives billions in tax cuts to middle class families, so I guess I’m not sure why it’s a horrible thing when Obama does it even though it was part of the foundation for Hillary’s economic plan.

  123. DakiniKat – click on the link in the blockquote box regarding the faith based programs. He’s opening 12 offices.

    That sounds like done deal to me.

  124. Katiebird, I’m sorry if my question upset you, but what did I say that was offensive? I think this is an interesting topic to talk about and I think everyone on here seems to be for the most part raising interesting points to think about, right?

  125. well, kirsten, you must not have read the WSJ too well, because that’s where it came from

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123111279694652423.html

  126. Kristen –

    The TAX issue is secondary.

    JETTISONING Family Planning for Low Income people to throw to Republicans as a bone, while opening up 12 Faith-Based offices – IS A PROBLEM.

  127. The Obama tax-cut proposals, if enacted, could pack more punch in two years than either of President George W. Bush’s tax cuts did in their first two years. Mr. Bush’s 10-year, $1.35 trillion tax cut of 2001, considered the largest in history, contained $174 billion of cuts during its first two full years, according to Congress’s Joint Committee on Taxation. The second-largest tax cut — the 10-year, $350 billion package engineered by Mr. Bush in 2003 — contained $231 billion in 2004 and 2005.

  128. Well, apparently Obama has hypnotized the GOP leadership as well. Principles? What principles–he talks purty!

    http://briefingroom.thehill.com/2009/01/27/gop-ers-swoon-over-obama-despite-differences/

  129. Madamab, I think he wanted to be “inclusive” to the point that he includes Republicans in the discussions as part of his pledge to work with the other side, but it seems to be a symbolic gesture so I guess it’s pointless. The Republicans are in the minority now so Obama can ignore them if he wants. Then again, if he ignores them and they use that as a campaign point in 2010, the Dems could lose Congress and Obama would have to compromise many things to get congressional approval like Bill Clinton had to after 1994. Maybe Obama is trying to look nice so he can keep Congress longer. Who knows.

  130. Um, I’m sorry. DIDN’T HE WIN???? WTF does he have to conceed? He is the Presiddent, he doesn’t have to compromise with the party that caused this problem in the first place!!!!!

    Bush didn’t even WIN and he made DEMANDS on Congress.

    WTF is this BIZARRO WORLD??!!?!

  131. last time i checked, 300 is greater than 174 and 231 … those are the numbers for two years …

  132. But where does it say it’s the largest tax cut in U.S. history? It says it will have the biggest punch, but that doesn’t mean “largest.” Bush’s tax cut was in the trillions. Obama’s is $350 billion. Also, it says nothing about Obama’s tax cut being the biggest tax cut for “big business” in history, which is what I was asking for the source for.

  133. <Maybe Obama is trying to look nice so he can keep Congress longer. Who knows.

    HAHAHHHAAAA!!!!!!!!!

    Yeah right.

    If Obama CARED about what Congress thought, a DEMOCRATIC CONGRESS mind you, why did Obama order House Democrats to cut the Family Planning Funding?

  134. Kristen,

    Instead of demanding information from Dakinikat, why don’t you go read her post from yesterday where she explained it all to us? Do some of the work yourself and then you’ll get friendlier responses. Once you’ve read yesterday’s post, if you disagree, you can then post specific quote to your Business week and WSJ articles–with links. That’s how it works.

  135. kristen: the smartest thing you said is ‘who knows’ and the answer is a lot of people, but obviously NOT you

  136. Kristen doesn’t seem to understand “the math.” Or should I say “arithmetic?” Subtraction just isn’t that hard, Kristen. Give it a try.

  137. kristen, you have to compare the numbers for the two years, it will wind up compounding to more than the 300-350, billion over the following years just like the two Bush tax cuts did …you have to compare apples to oranges

  138. The Republicans aren’t “swooning” — they’re choosing to praise a popular President for political strategy.

  139. That’s it for Kristen. G’ By!

  140. Before Kristin is banished or moderated, I would really like her to tell me when Obama is going to start reaching out to the liberal side. He’s been reaching out to Republicans all along. For him, the other side of the aisle is *Democrats.*

  141. But Dakinikat, it says the tax cut was for over a trillion dollars. You’re looking at the numbers for the first two years of impact from the Bush tax cut, not the total, which the article says is over a trillion dollars. If Obama lets the Bush tax cuts expire like he says he is going to in 2011, then won’t that mean the 2001 Bush tax cut will be gone so that trillion dollars will be added to taxes after Obama’s first two years? Seems then that if you compare tax cuts throughout Bush’s term and Obama’s term, Obama’s tax cuts will be much lower (if he really lets the Bush tax cuts expire, which we will have to wait and see if he does).

  142. Kirsten: I think you’re arguing with the wrong person. Dakinikat–why don’t you tell her your profession, so she can stop citing Business Week articles as an authority? You’re debating a pro here Kristen, which is fine if done respectfully. But, if you’ve come here to be an Obama advocate, you’re in the wrong place. It’s a big Obama-love fest world out there–not here.

  143. Kirsten –

    Then again, if he ignores them and they use that as a campaign point in 2010, the Dems could lose Congress and Obama would have to compromise many things to get congressional approval like Bill Clinton had to after 1994. Maybe Obama is trying to look nice so he can keep Congress longer. Who knows.

    Obama is trying to keep the GOP on his side because he was elected and funded by them.

    He’s just dancing with the ones that brung him.

    I don’t think this meeting is a symbolic thing at all, unfortunately. All of Obama’s economic advisors are of the neoliberal Chicago school, and they believe in tax cuts and deregulation, just like Reagan.

    He’s going to use the guise of “bi-partisanship” to screw working and poor people to the wall.

    Change, my *ss.

  144. bush’s tax cut didn’t start out as TRILLIONs, just as this one isn’t … it’s the compounding effect of years that puts in there … make sense now? compare the estimates for the two years for all THREE tax cuts, the Obama one is the biggest and will compound quicker and be larger —–WAY into the trillions by the time it’s 5 – 8 years old

  145. Please, Katiebird, let her answer my question. Please?

  146. That old song and dance from the 400 Club, “Please Explain what you mean….” Bored me a year ago. Now? I spit on her.

  147. Ah, BB — OK. Just for you. One more question.

  148. Wow, people get banished for asking questions? That seems kind of harsh, like the Nazis. I’ll go somewhere where discussion is appreciated. Bye!

  149. fif: I’ve always find if you have to argue based on your credentials and not logic and facts, it’s less effective and more ego-based, but just me

  150. Kat – pearls before swine, methinks.

    🙂

  151. BB, I liberated a couple of comments. Is that OK?

  152. plus, no one learns anything that way

  153. I wonder if she thinks “Keep off the Grass” signs are placed by Nazis too?

  154. No, Kristen. We banish people for spreading Obamabot propaganda. I guess you’re too chicken to answer my question. Not surprising, but so disappointing!

  155. Kristen compared us to the Nazis.

    Yup, “she’s” a tr0ll.

  156. Wow, people get banished for asking legitimate questions and participating in actual discussions here? Sorry, seems a bit too much like China for me. I’m going to go to a forum where you can actually talk with people and ask questions politely without being banned. You guys should close this site to outsiders if you don’t like outsider questions. Take care!

  157. {lurking}
    Nodding head and agreeing.
    Been on vacay-no phone or news for five days.

  158. madamab: I deal with undergrads every day, remember? throwing pearls before swine is an occupational hazard, plus, occasionally the pearls slam into their craniums and the occasional moment of satori happens

  159. Earth to Kristen: Your candidate won. You don’t have to convince anyone to vote for him for a few years. I wonder if she is one of the new hires–the permanent campaign workers?

  160. Kristen godwinned, Oh well.

  161. ( Feeling like Yoda watching a tremor in the force)

  162. Kristen –

    You’re like a Jehovah’s Witness who’s knocking at 8 am on a Saturday morning.

    And I’m not answering the door.

  163. Hi Kim,

    I missed you. I was just wondering this morning where you were. Hope you’re enjoying your vacation.

  164. Oooo Satori!

    Can I have ONE ?

  165. AFROCITY:

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    LOL

    !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  166. HI Mawm!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Hi Kim!!!!!!!!!

  167. she vacated the premise, i was trying to get her brain to function and I guess she couldn’t handle it … she prefers to discuss things based on insisting she’s right … either that or she’s extremely dense considering I explained about three times the way those numbers work

  168. LOL Afrocity!

  169. Mawm,

    Isn’t it amazing how they just keep trying to convert us?

  170. this obama inclusive stuff is gettting old when it refers to idiots like rick warren and john boehner … i prefer the I won, get out of my face tact, personally

  171. Dakinikat,

    I’m a total mathphobe, and it was crystal clear even to me.

  172. bostonboomer, on January 27th, 2009 at 3:28 pm Said: Edit Comment

    Mawm,

    Isn’t it amazing how they just keep trying to convert us?

    BB:

    But WHY?

    Why are these fuckers still doing this?

    Trolls get made like undercover cops in a bad neighborhood here.

  173. bb: comparing 10 years of results to 2 is a really stupid mistake imho

  174. BB, I feel like we are the little black dot in the middle of the white side of the Yin/Yang.

    Pretty soon things will start to change, the Yin will Yang, and everyone wil be wearing Black. I’m sure by then, I’ll be the tiny white dot.

    I always seem to be on the underdog’s side.

  175. OT

    93-year-old froze to death, owed big utility bill

    BAY CITY, Mich. – A 93-year-old man froze to death inside his home just days after the municipal power company restricted his use of electricity because of unpaid bills, officials said.

    Marvin E. Schur died “a slow, painful death,” said Kanu Virani, Oakland County’s deputy chief medical examiner, who performed the autopsy.

    Neighbors discovered Schur’s body on Jan. 17. They said the indoor temperature was below 32 degrees at the time, The Bay City Times reported Monday.

    “Hypothermia shuts the whole system down, slowly,” Virani said. “It’s not easy to die from hypothermia without first realizing your fingers and toes feel like they’re burning.”

    Schur owed Bay City Electric Light & Power more than $1,000 in unpaid electric bills, Bay City Manager Robert Belleman told The Associated Press on Monday.

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090126/ap_on_re_us/frozen_indoors

  176. but, then i’ve seen how few of them actually get the concept of compounding even when you spend an entire semester using it like you do in corp fin or something like that

  177. Downticket: that is soooooo wrong …

  178. Hi all. Vacation was short, but I will take five days in Florida any day. And no news about teh one made it even better.

    Back to lurking, post keeps crashing my browser.

  179. Downticket –

    The company should be charged with murder.

    They could’ve waited until spring at least to work out a payment plan or refer him to a community service program that helps seniors pay their large energy bills.

  180. Dak: That ain’t just wrong, it is freaking pathetic and it should piss off every one.

  181. Kim: I’d insist the police arrest the CEO of the utility for negligent homicide if I were related to the gentleman or his congressperson, but that’s just me.

  182. In a year of too much hope and “yes we can” inspiration these people didn’t feel any sympathy or compassion for this man.

  183. My favorite part from sm’s original post:

    “I think the president is genuinely serious about this,” Gibbs added.

    You THINK he’s serious?

    Even his own supporters aren’t sure.

  184. I saw the headline to the article about the man freezing to death on Drudge, and I believe he was a WWII veteran …. nice way to payback those that serve this country ….

  185. He’s going to use the guise of “bi-partisanship” to screw working and poor people to the wall.

    Everything with him is propaganda and campaigning. This is all just to bamboozle the gullible Dems who want him to be “inclusive” (at the expense of having an actual liberal agenda), and to wink and nod to the Republicans who are funding him. Schmoozer.

  186. DT: yes we CAN take advantage of every one to get what we want in life!!! yes WE CAN!

  187. Tr0lls all have the same M.O. Shove their concern PR down our throats, and when we respond with actual facts, they become rude, and then when we respond in kind, they insult us for x, y, z and censoring other viewpoints.

    Don’t let the door hit ya on the way out.

  188. Scrubs57 –

    He said “think” – but we “KNOW” he’s serious, especially when he ordered House Democrats to cut Family Planning funds from the bailout/stimulus package.

  189. Welcome back Kim. We’re expecting another 18″ of snow here in the Northeast. I bet that warm sun felt good.

  190. are replacing AD (after death) and BC (before Christ) even in American museums.
    ___________
    AD stood for”Anno Domine” in the Year of Our Lord,

  191. i personally always take issue when a person thinks misstatement of fact is offering up viewpoints …

    serious mental defect with that logic

  192. why should facts ever stand in the way of insisting your right? ask the pope! ask Dr. Dobson! ask Obama!

  193. Yeah, SM, PBO is serious about all the wrong things: his favorite basketball team, going to the gym, letters to his daughter….

    I better stop, I’m going to get really snarky and need to get ready for work instead.

    Catch up with you guys later!

  194. Dakini –

    I’d love to see you write a post about Iceland’s economic collapse and if we are that close to being there.

  195. Bye scrubs57!
    See you later!

  196. AD stood for”Anno Domine” in the Year of Our Lord

    Some say Christ was probably born at 4 or 7 AD – he wasn’t even around in 1 Anno Domine

  197. sm: not as close as the UK is

  198. I heard that story about the elderly man freezing to death last night on the radio. It made me cry. Yes, the utility company should be charged with negligent homicide. In MA ultilities aren’t shut off on elderly customers.

    In the middle of the winter, to shut off anyone’s heat without checking to see their situation or if they have family to help them should be a crime. There could be small children in the home too. If they couldn’t get in touch with this man, they could have sent someone to his home to find out or contacted his relatives. What have we come to as a society when this kind of thing can happen? Homeless people are freezing to death on the streets of American cities too.

    What would Obama say? He should have taken responsibility for his failure to pay his bill at 93?

  199. Jmac: no one has even successfully proved he even existed for that matter

  200. BB: i thought most states had laws against turning off utitlities during the winter months, I know NE and MN do

  201. BB – What would Obama say? He should have taken responsibility for his failure to pay his bill at 93?

    His followers would say it was time for the man to go and stop taking up resources that younger people deserved more.

    Have I mentioned yet today how much I hate Obama and his selfish, idiotic Obots?

  202. afrocity, on January 27th, 2009 at 12:52 pm Said:
    Tell me what the black churches in Chicago do for the AA community in Chicago Teresa in PA

    Afrocity, not directed to me but here’s my input…

    don’t know what they do for the poor, my guess is nothing, but didn’t Obama direct a lot of $$$ to TUUC when he was senator? Why should he stop now?

    Personally, I think that as previously stated by another Confluencan that when government and religion cross paths, it is the religious groups that get corrupted by politics.

  203. Fembots

    TUUC?

    You mean the church

  204. sm77

    Clinton was absolutely pro family planning which is why I am more torqued with the Obama admin position that the low income family planning funding should be jettisoned.

    I have no doubt based on her prior comments that SHE would be able to understand that pulling the means to family planning for low income folk is condemning women and children to remain low income. She was very candid about what she saw as First Lady and how it shaped her position on family planning.

    Sorry it took so long to get back to you I am multitasking. GRRRRRRRR. I got Pelosi’s machine. I hate machines. I am really really angry and upset over this decision.

  205. afrocity, on January 27th, 2009 at 4:22 pm Said:
    Fembots
    TUUC?
    You mean the church

    Sorry, didn’t make that clear. Yes, his church.

  206. Yes his own $$$$.

    Trinty is not the AA church of choice in Chicago.

    Also in Chicago AA community and others, but very much so in AA community, church is more so a social network. In my experience growing up here, the black church in Chicago never pushed an agenda onto us mostly gave food and $$$ and helped pass legislative so evil electric company run by Bill Ayers dad, did not turn off the electricity in the dead of winter.

  207. I’m not sure if anyone mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I think Pelosi really stepped in it when she attempted to defend the inclusion of the funds for contraceptives in the stimulus package.

    I don’t like Cafferty and haven’t watched him in months, but I guess he compared her to Chairman Mao and China’s one child per couple policy.

    I also saw an article where she was accused of being a racist, since most planned parenthood locations are in cities and serve areas with many minorities (the main point was Pelosi, mother of five, wants to make sure that poor minorities don’t reproduce so the state isn’t burdened with the upkeep of their children).

    I wish she had given greater thought to formulating a response to that question.

  208. afrocity – what happened to your smiling avatar with the kitty? I never got to see it except on my Blackberry.

  209. My opinion on faith based programs is they do not belong being federally funded if they are going to discriminate. I have no problems with churches and recognize that many do alot of good in their communities. As a teen our church often kept my family fed and helped my family pay for social functions that I never would have been able to attend without a “scholarship”(Disney, bible camp, Jesus 85). That said, I do not see how you can take the God out of the ministry and if you do not then you would almost have to discriminate against atheists or people with a different religious viewpoint then your own organization. The government should not be endorsing or funding any religious viewpoint.

  210. CWaltz said – I think we are slowly but surely leaning away from “we are a Christian nation.” The museum I was just in this weekend had as dates on some exhibits BCE = Before the Common Era. CE and BCE are replacing AD (after death) and BC (before Christ) even in American museums.

    It was news to me – I’d never heard of BCE.

    i personally dislike this sort of PC historical revisionism. Whether we use AD or CE… the calendar is still oriented around the Christian calendar. Changing the letters only contributes to the already appalling historical ignorance in our society.

  211. madamab, it is still there unless it has been hijacked

    I agree elderj

  212. dakinikat, on January 27th, 2009 at 3:26 pm Said:
    she vacated the premise, i was trying to get her brain to function and I guess she couldn’t handle it … she prefers to discuss things based on insisting she’s right … either that or she’s extremely dense considering I explained about three times the way those numbers work

    It made sense to me. But then again, I’m not assuming that Obama will do anything he says he will do, only his actions which are in this bill. Probably giving Kristen too much the benefit of the doubt here, but she didn’t seem to get that Obama is already outspending Bush on tax cuts, and if the trend continues he will have outspent Bush. But we won’t know until his term has expired for sure.

    I haven’t read your post from yesterday and will do that now. ciao

  213. I thought we were in a new era now? Don’t we need new dates. Let’s start over at 0.

    This is the year 0 AO.

  214. as far as faith based funding from the federal government, I think that faith based groups should be able to compete for federal monies on the same basis as other groups. To do otherwise is discriminatory. That being said, I could see that many faith based groups would not choose to compete for these monies due to the strings that come with it.

  215. elder: as long as their purpose is secular and proslytizing has nothing to do with the goals of the organization

  216. Here in Philadelphia, PECO can’t shut off the heat/electric between Dec 1 and March 31st. Its illegal. That utility should be criminally liable. They should have certain temperature parameters at the very least, such as a average daily temperature minimum for x days before shut off. That was EFFING MICHIGAN.

    Additionally, we have the following program. Bottom line: there is no reason for someone with a residential heat account to freeze to death. Period.

    PHILADELPHIA — The City today announced that due to a predicted wind chills at 20 degrees or below for 4 hours tonight, a “Code Blue” is effective beginning at 6 p.m. During Code Blue, public and private outreach teams and residential and health services mobilize to respond to the needs of homeless people living on the streets. In the last Philadelphia street count conducted this week, volunteers counted 429 individuals on the streets in Center City.

    Robert Hess, Deputy Managing Director, encourages citizens to call the 24-hour hotline number if they see any one in need of shelter or assistance and an outreach team will be dispatched to the location. The 24-hour outreach hotline number is (215) 232-1984.

    Participating entities include: Under the City’s Division of Social Services: Adult Services, Department of Behavioral Health, Department of Public Health, Recreation Department. Private entities include Project H.O.M.E., Horizon House, Hall Mercer, Mental Health Association, and SELF.

  217. you know, for a lot of people it is NOT 2009 anyway, not for Jews, not for Muslims, not for Chinese, not For Hindus, not for Buddhists, not even for some christians like the coptics… it’s that silly holy roman empire that messed everything up

  218. This isn’t a surprise.He said this during his campaign and apparently it’s not subject to flip-flopitis.

  219. This is what’s not a surprise:

    From USA Today)
    Many people assumed that any Democrat would restore the secular work of government and strive to remove religion from politics. But Obama has indicated that he intends to expand, not eliminate, the faith-based programs. Indeed, he has stated that Bush’s faith-based office “never fulfilled its promise” due to a lack of funding. This “lack of funding” cost this country $2.2 billion in 2007 alone.

    Obama reportedly plans to change the name from the “Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives” into his own “White House Council for Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships.” The old office would become 12 offices to carry out the expanded program. Not exactly the change that many secularists and liberals were hoping for.

  220. January, 2009 [Tibetan Year: 2135 | Buddha Era: 2552 B.E. | Kalachakra Year: 2065]

    I actually follow four calendars, believe it or not.

  221. and today’s an unfavorable day, btw, so watch what you do and say 🙂

  222. dak — you are right about the dates… be that as it may, the designation CE doesn’t even make sense. Common Era? What the heck does that even mean? The common era of what? Before the common era of whom? It’s just silly to me, especially when the time frames refer the the same events (roughly) although I think it is funny that as best we can tell Jesus was born in 8 BC., which means he was born before himself.

  223. elderj said:

    i personally dislike this sort of PC historical revisionism. Whether we use AD or CE… the calendar is still oriented around the Christian calendar. Changing the letters only contributes to the already appalling historical ignorance in our society.

    From my perspective, it is a bit ignorant to imply that everyone in America uses the Christian calendar as a basis.

    Also, 97% of the money for Bush’s faith-based initiatives went to evangelical Christian churches. Has Obama mentioned changing the focus to acknowledge other religions?

    If not, the faith-based initiatives will continue to mix evangelical Christian beliefs, and evangelical Christian beliefs ONLY, with government functions.

    Given what this group has already done to our government, I cannot be sanguine about such an eventuality.

  224. Many people assumed that any Democrat would restore the secular work of government and strive to remove religion from politics. But Obama has indicated that he intends to expand, not eliminate, the faith-based programs. Indeed, he has stated that Bush’s faith-based office “never fulfilled its promise” due to a lack of funding. This “lack of funding” cost this country $2.2 billion in 2007 alone.

    Okay, let’s for a moment shed the labels. It is not getting any of us anywhere. Obama is a democrat that is into “faith”. It shows in his life. The blacks who voted for prop 8 are DEMS. See the DNC has failed to do a little self surveying and stereotypes its constituents. Expect more and more stupidity to come from the DNC. Obama is pushing a Saul Alinsky agenda.

    The Democrats have changed. That is why I left.
    Mr. Afrocity said “remember in the 80’s when we thought the right looked crazy, welcome to the other side.”

  225. afrocity: I like how you call your husband Mr. Afrocity. It always makes me smile.

    🙂

  226. madamab: Agree wholeheartedly! Haven’t I advocated the total and complete separation of church and state on every political issue?

    I don’t care what religion anyone practices, the last time I looked people can practice whatever they choose, believe whatever they believe, but for the sake of the Almighty,keep it out of public policy!

    To those dumb enough to think that this stuff cannot happen here, just look to Sharia Law that is practiced in many countries and has been approved by Great Britain for the Muslim community over there. Have we not witnessed enough bloodshed worldwide already without considering what agonies await those who put this on display as part of their political culture?

    Worship a tree, cozy up to a cow, throw a snake around your necks if this makes you feel better, but keep it out of my face. This combination is not benign at all. It is dangerous.

  227. madamab says: From my perspective, it is a bit ignorant to imply that everyone in America uses the Christian calendar as a basis.

    Also, 97% of the money for Bush’s faith-based initiatives went to evangelical Christian churches. Has Obama mentioned changing the focus to acknowledge other religions?

    If not, the faith-based initiatives will continue to mix evangelical Christian beliefs, and evangelical Christian beliefs ONLY, with government functions.

    Given what this group has already done to our government, I cannot be sanguine about such an eventuality.

    When I say “Christinan calendar” I simply mean the calendar most commonly used, accepted and practiced (i.e today is 27 January 2009) was codified in the context of Christian faith, not that everyone follows the liturgical calendar. I’m pretty sure that even pagans, wiccans, neo-mayan astrologers and buddhist monks living in San Diego all have their birthdays recorded on their driver’s license using our “standard” calendar

    As for faith based initiatives, I do not want to see government overly tied to religion because where money goes, control follows. Taking government funds means following government rules, so I believe groups should be able to compete on an equal basis. After all religion is one type of ideology and there is no reason it should be discriminated against (nor favored) as over against groups with a secular ideology.

  228. I am a Christian & a very religious person — go ahead make fun of me for being so “dumb” & “unenlightened” that I actually believe in God — whatevs — I can take it — I believe in the transubstantiation for crying out loud. But you know what I do NOT believe in? I don’t believe in the State being involved in the Church is ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM. Separation of Church & State is something that the Democratic Party USED to believe in too, pre-Obama. Whoever supports this fraud is a moron.

  229. I had names for my ex husband too that would make you smile. Or wince.

  230. I don’t care as long as Christmas comes in December 😀

  231. Actually, we all use the Julian calendar in the west, so y’all are both wrong.

  232. OK — Now Pampers has passed into the stupid?

    Sorry SM but didnt we just throw these jerks out for F’ing up the economy?

    I guess we will need to de-ellect this Gumba for asking the class flunkies for the answers to the math test?

    Will this ever end Angie…and if you say Jan 20, 2016 I will scream!

  233. Angie, thanks for pointing that out. I don’t have to look like Tammy Teacher now.

  234. You know angienc, I am much less concerned about the churches being involved in government as the government being involved in church. that is a much bigger danger in my view. That’s why I don’t very much like faith based initiatives because the government then gets to dictate what these church groups can and cannot do. Sure, I think they should be free to compete for funding, but at the same time, I wonder why they would, given all the strings that are attached to it.

  235. AD actually stands for Anos Domini-(year of our lord) see mom all that latin came in good use and I didnt have to become a priest!

  236. Fuzzy – yes, and here’s Obama throwing himself at the Republicans’ feet.

    The more money Obama throws into Faith-based Initiatives, the less money goes into social programs, i.e. healthcare.

    Remember, most of these groups are fundamental Evangelicals and still believe that Benny Hinn can cure cancer.

  237. And everyday I thank God for Angie being in my life.

  238. afrocity — LOL — many a discussion in my house about the Julian & Gregorian calendars! 😉

    fuzzy — it will end December 21, 2012.

  239. frenly (formerly and usually elderj), on January 27th, 2009 at 5:29 pm Said:

    Oh, I agree — it works both ways.

    afrocity!! XOXO

  240. The churches and the government would be wholly compliant with whatever one or the other proposes. They would be on equal footing from my perspective. The church would issue policies considered “bad” and the government, made up of all those careerists looking to hold onto their congressional seats for a lifetime, would roll over and play dead. After all, who can argue with “bad”.

    Dangerous. Subversive. Undemocratic. Insane.

  241. Blago is funny on Glenn Beck. Beck just told Blago he is named in the bailout bill Unless we dump Blago, Illinois any money.

  242. December 21 2012 is the Mayan Calendar ending for Baktun 13.

    Remember – the Mayan calendar is a circle. And December 22 2012 marks the Mayan calendar beginning for Baktun 0 – so it’s all good!

  243. Afrocity-yes Xmas must still fall in December (which actually means 10th month) As in the old calendar the year turned in spring not in December…I love my prezzys!

    Remember passover is always around spring time it is the celebration at the head of the calander this would explain wh the 12th month of the year is actually named the deci(mber)….

  244. Joel Osteen telling me how to live my life makes me ill.

  245. frenly I didn’t say that, Jmac did.

    I see more attempts at revisionism towards the idea that we are a Christian nation. The facts afe we aren’t. Patrick Henry’s bill that would have made us one failed(albeit by one vote). Madison lobbied for Jefferson’s statute of religious freedom and IT was passed. We are a country founded on the principle of religious freedom. Jefferson was quite eloquent on the topic, if verbose. The Virginia Statute of Freedom is quite the read. I wish someone would send a copy to the dolts who keep on insisting they should be allowed to cram their positions on morality down others throats. He hits on hypocrisy ,piousness and man’s fallibilty throughout time. He goes on to call the right to choose your own set of beliefs a natural right.

    Damn, we need another Jefferson.

  246. Crap — I got them backwards btw — I should have said:

    We use the Gregorian calendar in the west, so y’all are both wrong.

    (The Orthodox church still uses the “old” Julian calendar).

  247. why dec 21st??? says IG de-lurking

  248. benny hinn -I detest him he always thows his big Orlando “Cure-a-Thon” in October during Bear Bust!

    So you end up having christian promise keepers meeting in a conference room across the hall from the “Bear/Cub S&M demonstration lounge”…

    of course when a promise keeper makes a wrong turn and enters the demonstration and education room…hillarity does ensue!

  249. SM — I didn’t know the Mayan calendar started over again at “O” what is the Baktun? All I know about the 12/21/12 date is a whole bunch of chicken littles are proclaiming it “the end of the world” because of the Mayan calendar.

    I have to get home, but I’ll check in later to see if you got a chance to answer.

  250. What exactly is “pious”? Who decides who is more so than the other? Could we not say that those mullahs who are advocating death to all non believers (us) is not pious? He claims to be reading this from the Holy Koran.

    The person called to prayer 5 times daily is more pious than one who does not? Who makes up the rules? How does this apply?

    Is someone willing to kill as many people as he can before ascending to those 72 awaiting virgins in heaven is any less pious than the one who does not?

  251. “Passionate hatred can give meaning and purpose to an empty life. “.

    Obama is a legend in his own mind. He is telling GOP to stop listening to Rush because he is trying to dismantle GOP like he did DNC. Separate the McCain repubs from the Conservatives.

  252. Obama is sure kissing some Repub ass.

    Did I just hear a news clip of him saying he respects their *concerns?*

    *%%$^&*&^*^##*&&!!

  253. I totally signed up for SarahPac. Go, Sarah girl!

    Barack, get off my teevee!

    Bookstore, stop it with your sales, damn it!

  254. DT: Thank you for the posts about Hillary’s faith. I’d never read that before.

  255. Angie,

    No one is going to make fun of you! I really enjoy it when you talk about religion. I’m fascinated by it myself. I can’t really see myself as anything but a Catholic. The early influences were just too powerful for me. I’m just a Catholic who doesn’t agree with too much of what the men who run the church say. I love the teaching of Jesus, whoever he was or wasn’t–including the ones in the books that were left out of the bible.

  256. frenly,

    These religious groups insist that they should be able to discriminate in hiring practices. For example a Christian ministry would hire only a Christian that follows the doctrines of that particular ministry. I find that problematic particularly when there is no proof their dogma is factual. It’d be different if this was private money, it isn’t.

  257. Catarina, I hope he kisses our GOP ass some more and get that ACORN crap out of that bill. We don’t want it.

    Regency, I just gave Sarah a big fat check.

  258. cwatlz said:

    “we need another Jefferson”

    we had one her name was hillary she was the best aspects of FDR Thomas Jefferson Wodrow Wilson oh and Bill clinton rolled into one She was and is still:

    THE REAL DEAL!

    and the brilliant coolest neeto-ist Obamabots threw her away!

  259. good point, CWaltz
    Tax dollars and discrimination based on religious affiliation not cool.

  260. Indigogrrl,

    It’s the end of the Mayan Calendar, or Baktun 13.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_calendar

    But what people sometimes forget is that the Mayan Calendar is ROUND, so Dec 22 2012 is the beginning of a new era called Baktun 0/1.

  261. Regency,

    Did you watch the forum about religion during the primaries? I thought some of the things Hillary talked about were amazing. She talked about being guided and her spiritual feelings. I really identified with a lot of what she said. She seemed to much more in touch with the spiritual realm than Obama.

  262. Afro: All she has to do is ask. Sarah, Hillary, and now Kirsten are the women I’ll go to bat for in politics. Money ain’t nothing really. (Because I have it for the time being.)

    I wanted to convert to Catholicism when I was in middle school. Then, I realized that girls were really good to look at…and stuff. I still know the Hail Mary forwards and backwards.

  263. afro

    totally with you on Acorn.

    But the birth control stuff?

    and the faith based initiatives?

    that sellout sonofabitch.

    I’m checking over at PUMApac-they are doing an analysis of the whole pork casserole.

  264. I can’t really see myself as anything but a Catholic. The early influences were just too powerful for me. I’m just a Catholic who doesn’t agree with too much of what the men who run the church say. I love the teaching of Jesus, whoever he was or wasn’t–including the ones in the books that were left out of the bible.

    You summed it up perfectly for both of us. Very well put.

    I am going out for the evening before the storm hits again. I am beginning to sound like a raving lunatic in my comments!

  265. Here’s Jefferson’s statute

    http://www.lva.lib.va.us/whatwedo/k12/bor/vsrftext.htm#trans

    Again, really worth the read.

    There is no way THIS particular founder would have approved of tax dollars going to support a particular belief set.

  266. Message from the creator father-mother goddess…

    revision it the text:

    on the eight day I had indigestion and a bad case of constipation….from all the resting on the 7th day…

    so in a fowl mood I created the Obamabot and said be fruitless and divide….rule over creation and subdue it and bend it to your will…er on second thought never mind just sit at your computer terminal eat pizza drink beer and play world of warcraft!

  267. Have fun, Pat! The storm isn’t supposed to start until 4AM, so you can stay out late.

  268. NO WAY. I don’t want another Jefferson. Sure he was great at the articulation of the revolutionary actions of the America as new nation. He pioneered separation of church and state,. But when I read his diary in his own hand, where he called blacks stinky and foul his “all men are created equal” rhetoric is seen as inconsistent in regards to his actions and beliefs.

    How can you say that all humans are equal, yet you espouse to a narrow and inherently flawed belief system that Native and African Americans, and women are not culturally, physically, or intellectually equal to white males?

  269. Wait a minute! Catarina, are you saying there is money for Acorn in this bill? WTF?!

  270. BB: I did. I was actually more moved by her faith than I have ever been by my own. I’m not a faithful person by any means, but I really considered it when she spoke so openly about her own dependence on her faith during hard times. I guess it gave me a lot of confidence, believing that my future president would be guided by that strong of an internal compass.

    That isn’t to say that I’ll have any reservations about an atheist president. I really don’t care. As long as they come across as stable and, moral, and ethical, I don’t care what they do or don’t believe.

  271. cwaltz — I have absolutely no problem with a Christian group discriminating in their hiring practices and then competing for government funds. Every group discriminates in its hiring practices to some extent. A person or groups ideology should not be the test of whether they receive funding for this or that program, but rather the program itself and the parameters that are set for its execution.

  272. bb
    Foxnews had an article, and afro can probably to point you to the conservative blogs that are covering it.
    Darragh might ahve something too.

  273. i’m happy that all you are nice and snug with your religions, just keep them away from me, that’s all I ask !!!! Regency, I’m an antheist 🙂

  274. i’m sorry, but when people talk about any kind of creator god, it gives me the intellectual willies, really freaks me out

  275. Poor, DK.

    I don’t believe in the common God. I do believe in a higher power. I also just plain believe in morality. I just want to be a good person and I think I can do that without being force-fed a handbook.

  276. funny thing is Obama has finally incorporated as United Obama Metaphysic Enterprizes Inc….it is now listed on the Nasdaq-as U-O-ME (UOME)

    The IPO is expected to raise moe dollars that AOL MSFT Dell Oracle and Ivillage and Berk-Hath Class B combined to the 10th power!

  277. Black Ann Coulter here ready to deliver:

    Acorn Stimulus

    http://spectator.org/archives/2009/01/27/acorns-stimulus

  278. Man kills wife and five kids n L.A., sent letter saying he and wife planned it, checked the kids out of school etc. Both lost jobs recently. Not excusing these actions by any means, there is always hope, but this country needs help.

  279. Regency: sounds rational to me

  280. DJ,

    That guy is a loser and his loss of job in no way justifies that action. Not saying that you are the one insinuating this, but the MSM is playing it that way. He needed psychiatric help.

  281. Jefferson would be the first to admit he was flawed I’d bet. He’d blame it on his humanity. His positions, for the time period, sadly was and to some extent is common. That said, one of the things I liked about Jefferson was his relationship with Hamilton. Here was a guy who was his diametric opposite on just about every ideological dialogue and yet they still managed to maintain a friendship.

    Would I feel differently if I actually met the man rather than just had the opportunity to read some of his work? I don’t know. I just know that I really loved reading about Hamilton and everything he contributed to make federal government work and Jefferson and how he felt it was important that the states have power as well to ensure that the federal government didn’t run all over individual states. It’s an amazing balancing act that has managed to survive over 2 centuries.

  282. Afrocity,
    I don’t agree with his or his wife’s choice. What I am saying is there is a loss of hope happening with these layoffs and Obama and crew need to get the job issue addressed and quickly. Domestically we need a Hillary too. Unfortunately we are stuck with what we have for a while.

  283. I agree Regency. I am spiritual and have not belonged to a church since Unity on Hillcroft Street in Houston. That was 15 years ago. I pray and keep to myself.

    I recently attended a public school play in Iowa (which went for Obama). It was full of religious songs and it made me feel uncomfortable but the PTA approved it.

  284. Afrocity-

    when will obama make General Manager of Acorn a Cabinate position cause it looks like they are going to get better fundiing than the the department of Health and Welfare?

    I mean I am sure Pampers could find a qualified “MAN” to run the new Department of ACORN

  285. So frenly

    You believe Pastor X should be able to hire a person based on that person’s belief on whether homosexuality is a sin or not? Or Pastor Y telling a woman she is unsuitable because she doesn’t believe birth control is a mortal sin? I might feel differently if Pastor X or Pastor Y could prove their position is accurate. They can’t. That’s why it is called “faith”.

  286. I remember I sang “Call All Ye Faithful” in the school play in 9th grade. That was totally fine but it isn’t with me. It just so happens that’s one of the few Christmas songs I can remember well.

    I understand religiosity, but I don’t share it. I hate benedictions in public. I almost never close my eyes except out of respect for whomever I came to see. Funeral make me crazy. I’ve read parts of the bible. The only parts I like, I like for the lyrical quality. I adore lyrical prose.

  287. One of the things I dislike about Jefferson was his relationship with Hemmings. Jefferson professed contempt for the institution of slavery, yet owned slaves, held his own children as slaves.

  288. Which groups eligible for FEDERAL funds are allowed to discriminate? In order for a girls school to receive FEDERAL funds they were required to admit men. VMI was forced to allow females in order to get their funding. Schools that disagree with the military are forced to allow recruiters on their campus to get funds. Why should Christian groups get an exemption? they shouldn’t.

  289. Obama asking for advice from the GOP on the economy!
    This is like a farmer asking the fox for advice on building a more secure chicken coop.

    😆 What an embarrassment he is.

  290. I think, and Frenly correct me if I’m wrong, he meant that just as any private organization does, they have the right hire or not hire someone based on whether they find them suitable for the workplace. While it definitely toes the line as far as discrimination goes, I can understand not hiring an atheist to work in a Christian bookstore.

  291. Barack Obama: The best Republican since the last Republican.

  292. I don’t have a problem with Obama asking anyone for advice on the economy. God knows we need it. It is not like the DEMS didn’t look like idiots over the mortgage crisis. Both parties should own the problem and have a say in what to do about it. The GOP senators and representatives were elected by the people of their respective states just like the DEMS.

  293. I can understand that Afro. Slavery is and was an abomination. The things humans do to each other sometimes makes me want to find another species to call myself.

  294. cwaltz: “Why should Christian groups get an exemption? they shouldn’t.”

    Agreed. Government sponsored services need to be open to all. I assume faith-based would include religions other than Christianity. How would the government choose fairly among a variety of religions? I think Bush drastically reduced government oversight of funds for faith-based programs as he did for all government contracts. We need oversight in all areas of government.

  295. We sang “oh Christmas tree” and “dreidel, dreidel,dreidel”

  296. Who was talking about a “creator god?” I missed that one. I don’t believe in a “creator god.” I only believe in nature–matter and energy, nothing supernatural. My spirituality is science based. However, I have personally had mystical experiences, and have been strongly influenced by them. I don’t see mystical experience as separate from reality though.

  297. I would only buy a book from an atheist in a christian book store they would recomend it based on its literary quality and not based on whether it conforms to the sellers verision of Alpha and Omega

  298. Afrocity,

    It’s pretty embarrassing (Jefferson’s behavior), isn’t it? And I find it embarrassing today to have a President who is an extreme sexist and woman-hater.

  299. Regency – you’ve tagged it…

    and yes, cwaltz, I believe that Pastor X or Y should be able to fire someone based on their beliefs. And while you or I may agree or disagree with their ideology or religion or interpretation, I fully support their right to make employment decisions based on it.

    As to the question of proof… well proving the accuracy of any position is difficult when it comes to issues of ideology, be they religious or otherwise.

  300. No Quarter’s Rev. Amy is kicking ass & taking names:

    http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2009/01/27/gimme-that-old-time-religion/

    Well, it seems that Obama really is going to be crossing the boundaries between church and state, just as he telegraphed he would with the expansion of Bush’s Faith-Based Initiatives. Remember that one? I wrote about this a while back HERE. And remember that Obama’s very good buddy and spiritual guide, that raging homophobe, the Rev. James Meeks, is all for abolishing the separation of church and state, along with HIS good buddy, the Rev. James Dobson. I am not kidding. Their respective organizations are working together as this little blurb about James Meeks from the Southern Poverty Law Center highlights:

    The Rev. James Meeks is a key member of Chicago’s “Gatekeepers” network, an interracial group of evangelical ministers who strive to erase the division between church and state. A stalwart anti-gay activist, Meeks has used his House of Hope mega-church to launch petition drives for the Illinois Family Institute (IFI), a major state-level “family values” pressure group that lauded him last year for leading African Americans in “clearly understanding the threat of gay marriage.”

  301. PRIVATE organizations that discriminate aren’t eligible for federal funds. See my above examples.

  302. cwaltz O tannembaum was a song of the tree worshiping Druids…

    I guess you were just being a Druish Princess

    that was my spaceballs reference tonight-

    Long live Mel Brooks!

  303. New thread up!

  304. like jessica rabbit who married roger rabbit because he made her laugh…

    I am convinced that Ann Bancroft (Mrs Robinson)married mel brooks for the same reason!

  305. The sexist man is a funny man

  306. I don’t, not with taxpayer funds. If they want to promote a particular belief set(particularly one not provable) they should do so on their own dime or with the support of like minded individuals.

    The idea that homosexuals should have to fund organizations like FoF disgusts me(which they would). The idea that their money will free up more of FoF’s money to print and spread propaganda that is contrary to their own belief system(which is that God made me just the way he wanted me) is beyond disgusting. Furthermore, organizations like this by being allowed to discriminate get to build their flock(kind of like a kinder and gentler version of Hamas- oh goody).

  307. I don’t think religious organization should have federal funding anyway, but that’s me.

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