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Bad Bank, Bad Bank! Or I’m not an economist, but this sounds REALLY Bad to me

Does the idea of a Bad Bank have anything to do with this  story from a couple of days ago?  And can they REALLY be thinking of a $4 Trillion Bailout?  For Banks?  Well, remembering this:

Schumer’s $3-4 Trillion Horror Story

While questioning Treasury nominee Tim Geithner at his confirmation hearing this morning, Sen. Chuck Schumer said he spent some time calling around Wall Street this weekend, and what he heard was that if the government wants to clean out all the toxic assets from the financial system, it will cost some three to four trillion dollars. Which is to say, an order of magnitude larger than the second $350 billion in TARP money the Senate just approved.

That’s pretty daunting stuff when you consider that the banking system probably won’t recover until most of this bad debt gets cleaned up. And that the economy won’t recover till the banking system does. Alas, the only thing worse than spending $3 trillion to clean up the banks may be not doing it.

That doesn’t sound like a joke.  Then today  via Calculated Risk we learn that the idea of a Bad Bank is close to a sure thing:

The Obama administration is close to deciding on a plan to purchase bad—or non-performing and illiquid—assets from banks, according to industy sources. The plan could be announced early next week.

The so-called “bad bank” plan, would address the key problem of how to price the assets by using a model-pricing mechanism.

The model would take account of the government’s ability to hold onto assets, even to maturity, and pay for the them with cheap funding. Result: the government might end up paying more than current market prices for the securities.

. . .

Clearly, the idea of a “bad bank” is gaining momentum. On Capitol Hill today, Senate Banking Chairman Chris Dodd said he was aware the idea is under discussion and “it makes some sense to me.”

The move toward a bad bank concept comes amid growing speculation that banks may need another government bailout.

Jesus! No wonder they’re so sure we can’t finance Health Care For Everyone.  We’ll be lucky to buy toilet paper when this is all over.

304 Responses

  1. KB: You’d better invest in a good tree. You’re gonna need the leaves when you can’t afford the Charmin!

  2. Katiebird,

    The sad part is that they say they can’t fund Universal Health Care, but they can finance ACORN in Billions! It is truly sad, inflation will soon be upon us and then Lord only knows.

  3. WV, I think if they give 4 Trillion to the bankers there won’t be much for ACORN either.

  4. Okay, back. You really have to ask, is anyone surprised? I mean, really?

  5. {{Regency}} !! Would you like a drink?

  6. It looks like the party’s up here now

  7. {{{KB}}} I’d love a Mr. Pibb if you don’t mind.

  8. Hi MyIQ – Would you like to put your feet up and rest for a while? How about a drink?

  9. Oh, I’m on topic with the post, by the way. Are we surprised that we’re just handing over the trillions now?

  10. How about a few of ’em?

  11. Damn

  12. Let me get this straight.

    Nationalization: taxpayer buys the whole bank, good and bad assets.
    “Bad bank” maneuver: taxpayer buys only the bad assets at an inflated price.

    Ergo . . .

    Nationalization: bad.
    Bad banks: way to go!

    I must have missed the memo explaining all this.

  13. Thanks, KB! *chugs*

  14. Hope DK is around. This one could get tricky too.

  15. Afrocity, I think when the comments get about 300 we’re crashing browers all over the world.

  16. *jumps on Afro* Hi!

  17. Aaaaaaahhhhh.

    Do you have more in back?

  18. bostonboomer — I don’t know if you are still around (I got a phone call right in the middle of the crazy, interesting myiq thread!) but thank you very much and right back at ya. I got shut out comments before I could say that downstairs.

  19. Comments on that thread were shut down by the fire marshal. It HAD to be done!

  20. Afrocity, if you don’t show back up, I ‘m gonna fall on the ground. Get back here!

  21. I think Homeland Security shut it down. Credible threats were imminent.

  22. Comments on that thread were shut down by the fire marshal.

    The flames were getting hot

  23. OT, since comments are closed for last post.

    Just want to say, myiq, if you’re around, that though I
    disagreed with you, I thought it was a very interesting
    post, and really raised some very interesting questions about
    what is feminism, sex, power, etc. Comments were great.
    And I found it fun. Lots of energy, too. I love good

    Since I had a very difficult day, part of it dealing with
    those wonderful banks, I’m going to enjoy a respite from
    dealing with them now, and bask in the more pleasant topic
    of sex.
    Nite all. You are all brilliant, witty, and multiknowledgable.

  24. I don’t know how much more news like this I can take without going psychotic.

    Oh, right. Do I have coverage for psychotic episodes? Maybe I’d better self-medicate instead…… a glass of merlot looks appropriate.

  25. quixote, on January 27th, 2009 at 10:15 pm Said:

    Let me get this straight.

    Nationalization: taxpayer buys the whole bank, good and bad assets.
    “Bad bank” maneuver: taxpayer buys only the bad assets at an inflated price.
    That is the Republican “free market”. Privatize the profits and socialize the losses. The top ten execs that ran Wachovia into the ground got a $100 million parachute from the last bail-out.

  26. quixote, that’s fair.

    Thing is, this bad bank idea was at the top of the pile, way back in October, before Paulson had this brilliant (not) idea that he was going to use Tarp to feed equity into the banks, basically a slow path to nationalization. Owning both good and bad assets makes the Fed a big commercial bank, and the Fed knows it is not really cut out to be that. As nasty and dupid as they’ve been, the regular banks know (or should know) how to make money circulate to businesses and people, and they might, if they were not burdened by these irreconcilable bad assets. So yes, the bailout is a handout to the banks, but a capitalist economy can’t function without banks. Leverage, at the appropriate level, is what allows our economy to live and grow, with its ups and downs. The real hard part about buying these bad assets is pricing them, at auction prices or by modeling benchmarks prices that will no doubt be above current fair market value. If and when the economy turns around, after all these ridiculously complicated bad assets have been unraveled to their full extent, maybe the pieces could eventually be worth more to taxpayer than the prices that will be paid. But the time horizon will not be a short one, and in the meantime many sectors of our economy and society at large will be assuming the pain. It’s not right, not fair, not even legal is some ways, but we’re putting the very question of the capitalist economic model on trial. I’ve certainly never seen our system tested so deeply in my lifetime. But I’m not prepared yet to give up the founding principles of the democracy we live in, which includes the wisdom of people like Alexander Hamilton alongside his much celebrated and better knows peers of the Constitutional age.

  27. I’m here, Valhalla. Thank you.

    I guess I’m the only one who would like to continue the discussion about whether a certain young woman is responsible for her choice of boyfriends. I guess I’ll just have to stew about it all by myself while I’m trying to sleep tonight.

    I don’t understand this bad bank thing either, and I don’t want to think about the implications of it.

  28. You choose your boyfriends, just like you choose your church and pastor.

    I don’t know what else can be said about that.

  29. So much money given to banks and companies with none of it really benefiting the American people. How many more jobs will be lost, how many more people need to be homeless, how many more people need to go without health care before Obama and the Dems use the power they were entrusted with to help the American people? I am sickened by the actions of our new government leaders who continue to do nothing. Do we need another revolution to get some action? My tax dollars should not go to pay for someone’s golden parachute.

  30. this stinks smells bad and no bank that surrenders assets to “Bad Bank” should be allowed any Proffits until the gvt has been paid back every penny….

    We should only pay market value for these assets period

  31. there should be some gauranty against the gvt loosing money on this

  32. I guess I’m the only one who would like to continue the discussion

    I say go for it, but you should probly ask KB before you set her post on fire.

  33. Puma in Seattle,

    I think we’re all pretty much on our own now. Don’t get sick, don’t lose your job, don’t become too poor to pay for your heating bill. If you’re dying in the street, people will just step over you. If you die at home in agony like that poor old man in Detroit, the utility company will tut tut and say good riddance. The ruling class would quite frankly prefer that we all just die off now and stop breathing their air and consuming their resources.

    Sorry to be a downer…

  34. myiq,

    I don’t plan to discuss it. Isn’t that what I just said? I thought it was.

  35. Meanwhile, I called about refinancing our house. Even after adjustment for the current drop in value for the area, we have about 75% equity, so we want to re-finance the remaining 25%. We both work. “Very difficult” I heard today.

    Guess we should be a Bad Bank with billions of debt, instead.

  36. The ruling class would quite frankly prefer that we all just die off now

    The Nazi’s used the phrase “useless mouths”

    Yeah, I Godwined!

  37. Sorry for what I said, folks. I’ll run along now.

  38. Ooooh, KB, that looks perfect! Thanks.

    At least two glasses is the right dose, I think.

  39. Does that mean I’ve gotta close the comments?

  40. BB — NOOOOOO – Don’t go!

  41. I’ll run along now

    When will you return?

    Cuz I’ll get the matches and gasoline ready.

  42. 3w: i’m useless now, the last thread sent me to the wine rack and I’m about 2 glasses of cab sav past explaining all of this ….

  43. bb — I’m with you — I more then willing to discuss it, but c’est la vie — I will be comfortable in the knowledge that I’m right & everyone who disagrees with me is wrong. 😉

  44. I’m very suspicious about the megabanks’ hand in all this. Somebody’s got to pick up the tab for all the extra money over value they loaned, but they’re getting their losses covered. They loaned too much without collateral, why should they get bailed out? How come their CEO’s aren’t being pressured to resign like the auto companies? How come the tax cheat who was “in the room” gets confirmed? When you loan money for nothing you shouldn’t be rewarded.

  45. I will be comfortable in the knowledge that I’m right & everyone who disagrees with me is wrong.

    I won’t be satisfied until everyone acknowledges that I (and I alone) am right!


  46. myiq — LOL!

  47. BB, Part of the solution for us “useless mouths” of the unwashed masses is starting an underground trading economy. A carpentry job bartered for computer de-bugging. Childcare hours trade for auto repair hrs. Healthcare for garden produce. PUMA networking. ‘Xcept we’re outnumbered by Obotians here in the upper left-hand corner.

  48. they’ve turned computers into bank raters now, frankly, I wouldn’t want to lend to any one who I can’t look in the eye … but i’m terribly middle aged now and started my after uni life in a small bank of $68 million … and i even designed a quantitative loan rating model for commercial loans … i still say it’s based on looking them in the eye and seeing if you’d put your own money into them

  49. All I know is I’m going to start buying gold — no, not investing in gold, buying actual gold. That, & Lulu should see me through.

  50. Of course we get a tax cheat for Treasury Secretary. Look who’s POTUS. ((mutters and gets another lovely glass of that merlot that KB recommended.))

  51. Angie,

    Just one tiny little question and no one else should read this or respond. If the young woman in question is so proud of herself, why is it a secret which of the Deputy Chiefs of Staff she works for?

  52. Bush 1.0 was on stage with Clinton and said that when he was president a female protester came up to his car with a sign that said “Stay out of my Womb”

    Bush 1.0 said: “No problem Lady”

    Clinton was in stitches.

  53. Cinie, the CEOs should go the pen, and some of them will probably. Just that the SEC or Justice is way behind the curve on all this, just as I felt trying to keep up with that other flaming thread. The former CEO of Merrill O’Neal (before even Thain) jumped ship early last year with a $200 million severance. I’m guessing he’s currently not residing within US borders. The skinheads at Goldman along with many hedge funds are reaching for their passports as we speak.

  54. Dkat — I’m happy to stare them in the eye(s) ’til they blink first!

  55. google zombie banks … that’ll give you nightmares and make you want to stick all your funds in a hole in the back yard

  56. google zombie banks … that’ll give you nightmares and make you want to stick all your funds in a hole in the back yard

  57. Bush 1.0 was on stage with Clinton and said that when he was president a female protester came up to his car with a sign that said “Stay out of my Womb”

    Bush 1.0 said: “No problem Lady”

    Clinton was in stitches.

    I am now in stitches.

  58. Puma in Seattle,

    We have to do something. Personally I think the only answer is revolution. But it won’t happen, because too many Americans have been hypnotized by meaningless platitudes and drugged with koolaid. The Amercan Century ended in 1999. The empire is crashing down. Who knows? It may be for the best. If the Mayans were right, 2012 will be a new beginning.

  59. Bush 1.0 was better than 2.0. And I’m really really worried that 2.0 is going to look better than 3.0 if things keep going this way.

  60. Yikes — Zombie Bank

    A Zombie Bank refers to a bank with a net worth which is less than zero, but which continues to operate because of implicit or explicit government guarantee. Zombie banks are a key factor in causing a silent bank run, since the reliability of the government guarantee can be called into question when a significant number of banks are in distress.

  61. PumaIS:

    Zombie bankers don’t blink

  62. No problem, Dakinikat. I have no funds. All I have is debt and a few pathetic little material things.

  63. BB, agree. Why aren’t voters demanding their Rep’s and Sen’s heads on a plate for agreeing to all the $$$$ give-aways of our money?

  64. I think it’s funny how they keep insisting on calling them bad “assets” because the only thing these assets come with are liabilities.

  65. Exactly bb — if you have to keep things “secret” then that right there tells you all you need to know. I don’t care about any other rationalizations — male or female — if you can’t be open & candid about every aspect of your life, then something is amiss. It is as simple as that.

  66. dakinikat, how many Zombie Banks are there? (shuddering)

  67. 3 W, not according to AP.
    “AP’s review of the more than 200 publicly traded banks that received bailout money found that about 87 percent of the top three executives in 2006 — typically the chief executive, operating and financial officers — are still on the job.

    And that number is deceptively low, since those few executives who left their jobs often did so because they retired — or died. Several stayed on as directors or in consulting positions.”


  68. EEK! I’m in moderation — it is for bb’s eyes only though, so as long as she can read it, it doesn’t need to be released.

  69. The voters got pissed. Then they voted in a majority. I’m actually starting to think voters might be idiots. I’m not even kidding. And I don’t care if it’s insulting. An asshole calls you racist hicks and you vote for him anyway, you get what you voted for.

  70. Moderation is my location.

  71. bb — did you read my comment to you in moderation? if so, you can delete.

  72. hey, I’m free.

  73. myiq. Yes, I think you’re absolutely right. I’d better research what to prescribe myself in the way of a locally acting paralytic agent.

    Note to self: make sure that’s a reversible paralytic agent.

  74. Cinie, well they are slippery, these guys. Should have them wear ankle bracelets while they work thru the transitions.

  75. Regency –welcome to the real world — the majority of voters elected W & they elected Obama (only a plurality elected Bill — god bless H. Ross Perot) — ergo, they are idiots. I honestly feel no sympathy for them. I do feel sympathy for us Crying Cassandras who will have to suffer along with them, but at least we will have the comfort of knowing we were right & they were wrong. I’m totally ok with that.

  76. No doubt about it. Many voters are indeed idiots. (That’s another word for Obot, right?)

    They’ll wake up a few years too late, just like they did with Bush 2.0

  77. Angie, I just went to gmail, sorry I missed your chat.

  78. 3W, flaming as in calling the majority of voters idiots?

  79. Wow! I was out for most of the evening and Dunkirk took place all over again!

    OT: But Brad Pitt is one beautiful face!

  80. Pat Buchanan praised Obama’s inaugural speech for it’s many “neo-Reaganite lines.

    Neo-cons, Neo-Reaganites, neo-screwed.

  81. Nah, Pitt is too pleased w/himself.

  82. and btw — that is why I never had anything to do with those Bushies turned “fauxgressives” like Arianna & Markos — I knew something stunk about those johnny-come-lately “Democrat” — only running under the Big Tent after W. proved himself irrefutably irredeemable — very few people have true “come to Jesus” moments. And I was right.

  83. I know I am responding to an earlier post by myiq, but the only thing I can add is you seldom see a man go into the bathroom carrying Home and Gardens under his arm.

  84. 3 Wickets — who was I flaming? I didn’t even know you were here.

  85. I saw Benjamin Button tonight. Brad is beautiful! The movie is looooonnnnngggg however.

  86. Jmac, I hadn’t heard that. Well, Buchanan should know. H*ll, we all should; the Reagandoration was so bloody obvious in that speech.

  87. Not that its any comfort, but it is not going to $3 trillion imo. The markets skates to where the puck will be, not where it is currently. So a lot of this is market psychology, to give the banks confidence that they can leverage again, and when they do (hopefully sooner than later), the bad assets may not be quite as horrible, and the pain to the country may not be quite as deep. Trying to be optimistic.

  88. afrocity — no problem. 🙂

  89. Benjamin Button was long as hell but I loved it.

  90. My comment went to spam

  91. Pat J — did you like the movie? I’ve heard mixed reviews.

  92. Thanks for responding, Angie.

    Has it started snowing yet, Pat? I’m afraid to look. Somehow I have to figure out how to get out of my driveway in the morning, rush into Boston for a one hour class and then rush home before the sleet and freezing rain start. Wish me luck!

  93. I loved it too. And whoever did the special effects deserves an Academy Award. Awesome!

  94. bb: Not snowing here yet. Supposed to start here around 2am.

  95. You guys might be interested to hear that my ma is lurking. She read the thread of the night.

  96. Pat, I got to see Benjamin Button at home on DVD with my Academy-Member brother in law (and family) — I don’t know if I could have watched it in a theater. It was over 3 hours long, wasn’t it?

  97. you seldom see a man go into the bathroom carrying Home and Gardens under his arm.

    I usually take the sports page. And the crossword if I think I’ll be a while.

  98. Another for the optomistic side: Krugman hasn’t panicked yet, so take heart. We still have time. And our lovely, competent (bless her) SOS to help on the world stage.

  99. Pat J: Wasn’t the part with the tug and sub amazing?!

  100. angie: I loved it. Brad, Cate Blanchette, Tilda Swenson, you cannot lose. It is almost 3 hours long but the story is sweet. Stuffed my face with popcorn and truly enjoyed it.

  101. katie: since I no longer work for the Fed, I do not have access to that information … but my guess is a lot more than is safe

  102. I thought Brad Pitt was best in Thelma and Louise. He played a sex object.


  103. 3 Wickets — you better re-read — I wasn’t opening up anything & you should stop jumping into conversations half-cocked.

  104. optimistic. Katiebird’s merlot did a number on my spelling.

  105. Regency: I was blown away! But the superimposed head on the bodies of young kids and boys was remarkable. I have no idea how they did it but it was magnificent. Loved it!

  106. BB — LOL!

  107. Hi Regency’s mom! Please join in.

  108. 3 Wickets — you better re-read the entire thread — I wasn’t attempting or about to “re-open” anything.

  109. OT..but this is a good question….

    “Planned Parenthood, and the head of NOW in New York have both put out statements condemning BHO’s plan to sell out poor women in order to curry favor with Republicans. WHERE’S KIM GANDY?”


  110. PumainS: Krugman’s thing is Trade theory … not macroeconomics … panic when Roubini tells you too

  111. dakinikat: My son was in NO last summer and saw a lot of what was in the movie. Those antebellum mansions were gorgeous! He had also eaten at the corner restaurant that was shown almost to the end of the movie and was familiar with some of the landmarks.

  112. SHV: what!!!! where ever did he dump that superfeminist uniform? has gloria been told this?

  113. 3W:

    If you tell Angie not to pick a fight, you just picked a fight with Angie.

  114. May I state for the record that I have never worked inside the banking or financial services industry. I’ve interacted with them, cursed at them, but have never collected a salary from them.

  115. Regency’s Mom: You have much to be proud of with a girl like her. She is a “star”!

  116. Dkat — I see. I will go read up on Roubini. I’m sure you’ve talked about the experts relative to their fields, but I’m a slow learner in economics.

  117. Pat Johnson, on January 27th, 2009 at 11:18 pm Said:

    angie: I loved it. Brad, Cate Blanchette, Tilda Swenson, you cannot lose.

    That is what I figured — I’m especially fond of Cate & Tilda — they never hit a false note, imo. The only “problems” I’ve heard about it is length (which I don’t mind) and “not realistic” (which I also don’t mind — I have no problem with “escaping reality” in movies). I’ll have to go check it out — especially before the Oscars!

  118. Brad Pitt now has one of the worst mustaches I’ve ever seen. Without a beard, the mustache just doesn’t work for him at all.

  119. Pat: Brad’s around here a lot … he bikes here on his way from the quarter to the lower 9 and his project … we see him frequently and ignore him … it’s a Nawlin’s thing … the more famous you are, the more we ignore you and snub you

  120. myiq2xu, on January 27th, 2009 at 11:22 pm Said:

    Aw, you know me too well, myiq.


    Posing for Maxim

  122. SHV — Hahaha. I’m expecting Ms Magazine to do a cover re-do.

  123. kb — I think because it is a blond mustache — just doesn’t work.

  124. Hi Angie…I see your amour created quite the ruckus earlier using the “S” word….

  125. dakinikat: Then they would be “swarming” all over me if the inverse is true!

  126. What was the movie where BP had a beard?

    Legends of the Fall?

  127. Angie, I have dutifully re-read the thread. You are right. I was wrong. Damn. When will that ever change!!

  128. Hey! I thought sex fantasy nite was Friday?

  129. Regency’s MOM: I’m in awe … you’ve raised a great woman there! You should write a book!!!!

  130. Cate rocked her role. They had going from playing her 20-something self to her 80-some+ self dying. It was remarkable and she made every age distinct. I saw it Christmas morning. I loved it.

  131. When you see Benjamin Button do you get three hours younger?

  132. It’s sex fantasy Friday and Dirty Joke Saturday

  133. He was in one a few years back about the Himalayas. I liked that movie too.

    He is right up there with Cary Grant for the most beautiful face on the screen. To die for!

  134. Hey, did I step on Tin-Foil-Hat-Tuesday?

  135. I am saving my sexy PUMA photos for Flash Friday.

  136. 3w: in that case, I’ve been a bad bad puddy kat

  137. Three Wickets, on January 27th, 2009 at 11:25 pm Said:

    Angie, I have dutifully re-read the thread. You are right. I was wrong. Damn. When will that ever change!!

    If you will just keep the fact that I am right in your head as a given we will save a lot of time.

  138. Prolix: You are a master!

  139. Another Conflucian thanks Regency’s mom!

  140. Hey, did I step on Tin-Foil-Hat-Tuesday?

    We only do that once a month and we did it last week

  141. If you’ve seen ——— you can save the 3 hours: You’ve pretty much already seen Benjamin Button too.

  142. {{{{ waving to Regency’s Mom }}}}

    Hi Regency’s mom!! your daughter is Fab!

  143. SOD — my amour was completely right btw.

  144. myiq2xu, on January 27th, 2009 at 11:24 pm Said:


    Posing for Maxim
    Well…in Kim Gandy’s defense, Nancy Keenan is worse.

  145. bboomer, mightn’t your class be canceled? A lot of schools are already canceling tomorrow’s classes.

    I wouldn’t mind continuing the prior discussion, either, esp. bc I missed the exciting middle of it! but I can see how folks are a bit wiped out, too. Well, I guess we just have to wait until myiq digs up the next Obama staffer who’s posed for p0rn.

  146. Regency’s mom is here? Really?

  147. He may not be “mon amour” but I completely agree with him as well. That makes about 4 of us anyway.

  148. “I don’t care about any other rationalizations — male or female — if you can’t be open & candid about every aspect of your life, then something is amiss.”

    Personally, I believe that people are entitled to some privacy and don’t owe anyone a full accounting of their life. There is a reason they call it ,”their life.”

  149. Pat J — I stand by my pronouncement that Paul Newman is the most beautiful face on screen (male or female). I would characterize Cary Grant as the most “dapper” face on screen — but not the most beautiful. Pitt, on the other hand, I characterize as merely pretty. In other words: you can have Brad.

  150. katiebird: Forrest Gump maybe?

  151. DK, bad puddy cat, not to me you haven’t..

    I respect Brad for staying true to his word about moving to NOLA. My favorite movie of his will always be “the River Winds Thru It”.

  152. (Waving) Wow — Hi, Regency’s mom! I hope you’re having fun.

  153. Pat — the 7 yrs in Tibet movie. Gorgeous scenery! Problem was, I’d read Heinrich Harrer’s book much earlier, and Brad Pitt just wasn’t much like the real Harrer. Yeah, they always change the movie. I’m a climber, so I saw it w/some climbing buddies and we all laughed at the hokey climbing scenes.

    Not that I don’t like escapist films, especially these days.

  154. angie: i’ll always have a thing for Sean Connery …

  155. angie: I thought you were going to prepare an Academy Award sheet for us?

  156. kb — by __________ do you mean Forest Gump? Because I’ve heard Button compared to that as well. And, I have to admit, I wasn’t a fan of Gump.

  157. {{{{ just glad regency’s mom was not around for “70’s full disclosure Saturday — whew! }}}}}

  158. Pat J — I am going to prepare that, but it isn’t up yet. (it is on the official oscar website, they have it every year, but it still says “coming soon” — I will keep checking every day — cross my heart).

  159. PumainSeattle: That was the movie! The scenery was breathtaking. I really enjoyed it.

  160. I’ve sat in the corner and lurked all night. I was facing north so I feared that pesky moss problem — again.

  161. I’m gonna have to miss out on Fantasy Friday. There is something about hypocrisy that just frosts my cookies.

  162. dak — 2nd runner up to Paul Newman is definitely Sean Connery. Yowza!

  163. SOD: Regency would be still”standing in the corner” had she been here.

  164. Prolix — are you in a rainy part of the US?

  165. i’m just happy buttons gave nawlins some good exposure and want it to turn into tourist bux!!!!

    the greater ethos knows we sure do need it!

  166. CW, what have you got there, another can of worms we can open up?

  167. CWaltz — spare me. please — I think we can agree to disagree without resorting to name calling.

  168. dakinikat: My son loved it. Said he is going back. Naturally he did all the bars on Bourbon Street.

  169. can’t be here friday, have a gig … doing the depression years music again at the backyard ballroom theatre …


    You have a raised such a wonderful, intelligent, compassionate, and witty daughter–we love her here! 🙂

  171. wanted to sneak by and say nighty night to everyone. It was a heated heated discussion, but hey that’s what blogging is sometimes.

    Oh and Angie!

    I know I am right!

    Talk to ya on Sunday! Luv Ya!


  172. dk — my mom is an “extra” in Buttons — they obviously had run short & begged her (and some friends) who happened to be “at the right place at the right time” to do it. They had a blast — don’t know if they made the “cut” though.

  173. Dakinikat — that sounds fun. (and how apropos!)
    Do you ever record and post your sessions? YouTube? mp3?

  174. Not to turn anyone’s stomach so late, but when oh when will this absurdity end?

    Is Obama the Most Famous Living Person Ever?
    by Dee Dee Myers

    Barack Obama is the most famous living person in the history of the world.


  175. pat: it’s really hard not to fall in love with New Orleans … it has to be one of the greatest cities on the planet. it is NOT full of those nasty boxy malls with no architectual personality and with cafes serving frozen food and piped in music … we are all live, all spicey, and all down home, all the time~!

  176. We can be accused of a lot of things but “hypocrite” is not one of them. If nothing else, we are much too opinionated to be called hypocrites.

  177. taggles — Luv ya too! 🙂

  178. PumaInSeattle — nope, I’m currently in that frozen daiquiri known as the Ohio Valley where it has snowed, rained, sleeted, and basically put everything in one big ice cube for the last 36 hours and is scheduled to keep us iced up for another 36.

  179. My mom knows about your confessions. I told her. we don’t do secrets.

  180. Who is a hypocrite?

    (rolling up sleeves)

  181. Pat and Angie, yes. And I think that’s the first reason I was a little ambivalent about the film. I didn’t hate it like I hated Gump. But, I was distracted by the parallels. Since hearing more about how it was made, I am wondering if it should be considered an animated film.

  182. puma: i have a recording on myspace of beyonce singing one of my songs … mostly what i do in the studio is lay down stuff I write that gets layered over …

  183. katiebird: I just consider it a piece of escapism. With all the cr*p that has reigned down on us lately it is nice to be able to just watch something soothing for a change. Perhaps not the greatest film ever made but a little shot of healing powers to get away from “nasties” we are encountering that threaten to consume us.

  184. 3W – Hard to grow moss when it’s freezing, at least. I won’t make you laugh by talking about our 1″ of snow this morning. Which turned into rain.

    40 degrees and rainy. That’s Seattle most of the winter. (and spring, and fall)

  185. Angie, what scene was she in?

  186. kb — see, that is what keeps me from seeing Buttons — ’cause I hated Gump — I mean with a white, hot passion. But, if you like if more than Gump (or at least, didn’t hate it as much) that, with Cate & Tilda and the New Orleans setting (plus the chance to play “spot my mommy”) means I should bite the bullet & see it.

    Afrocity — all of us, expect CWaltz, I presume.

  187. Bye taggles!

  188. Prolix, no way, the Ohio Valley, really? Where, in Athens? Are you high yet?

  189. DK — ok, I must get on MySpace soon.

  190. We’re gonna condemn men for fantasizing but devote a night to fantasizing, (because I am so sure that you have deep and personal relationships with these people you all are fantasizing about)……Nope, no hypocrisy there. I’m just namecalling.

    I think that if people are going to continue to make digs 3W then they have a right to be called out. I didn’t bring the can opener but I’ll get a fork once the can is opened.

  191. PumainSeattle, but that’s still no excuse for owning the SUV..

  192. Prolix,

    I knew there was something funny going on over there in the corner.

  193. kb — she is sitting in a cafe with other people pretending to be eating, etc. She hasn’t even seen the movie herself, so I don’t even know if her “scene” made the movie, much less if she made it on camera. She would be over Brad Pitt’s right shoulder if she is on screen at all.

  194. 3W, I usually don’t have a clue, but you have just exacerbated my usual condition. Athens? High?

  195. Angie, I liked it A LOT better than Gump. But, there were issues. I’d like to talk about it after you see it.

  196. KB

    Your thread is great. I apologize for joining people in going off topic.

  197. puma: I hardly ever go there … i consider it sexual harassment central

  198. Wow! I have no idea how to respond to that post. Perhaps a sense of humor is in store?

  199. CWaltz, I think I dragged it off topic when I opened the bar. But, I thought we need a little friendly distraction.

    Don’t worry — I’m sure we’ll be talking about Bad Banks again all too soon.

  200. CW, didn’t know about the prudish side. And I’ll bring the switchblades, like Barry…

  201. Night, taggles!

  202. MYIQ: the comments closed on the other thread before I got to comment. I thought it was a really good post, FWIW.

    Angie: how the hell do you function? By my estimation you get about 4 hours a night!!! How do you do it??

  203. I hate passive aggressive people

  204. Prolix, I grew up part of my life in Ohio. Got high once, or twice, in Athens visiting friends at OU, which is in the Ohio Valley. Or are you making up this thing about being from Ohio.

  205. I lived in Athens (Ohio) when I was a kid. My dad was teaching at OU for a couple of years.

  206. CWaltz — Before you can “call anyone out” you have to know what you are talking about. There is a difference between fantasizing & selling one’s self as nothing more than a sex object. Either you don’t get it or you pretend to not get it. Frankly, I don’t care which it is and I’m bored by you.

  207. CWaltz, bring whatever you like to the party but, all our threads are moderated.

  208. 3W, I’m in KY the state that owns the Ohio River.

  209. afrocity, on January 27th, 2009 at 11:50 pm Said:

    I hate passive aggressive people


  210. Micki — who says I function?

  211. BB, sincere apologies. Didn’t mean to imply everyone got high at OU.

  212. KB

    You did a great job. I wish I had an answer to how we could wake people up and that if we did I could guarantee that the folks in DC wouldn’t just pat us on the head and ignore us anyway. It wasn’t like the majority of Americans weren’t opposed to the bailout and look how that turned out.

  213. I’m never bored by CW, for real. Complexity is very often the cure.

  214. I have always smelled a rat and it is here to cause division between us.

  215. Angie: 🙂 You always have coherent things to say. You are coherent with 4 hours of sleep. I applaud you.

  216. Micki — {{kisses}}

  217. I’m with afrocity (surprise).

  218. yes ang,

    You are the expert on sexuality. Evidently everytime you but on your Bobbi Brown makeup you are doing it for the patriarchy(because that is what high heels and make up are for) but are the keeper of what is and isn’t appropriate for womenkind.

    Your bored with me? Wow, I’ll cry myself to sleep knowing that.


    All I ask is that it is moderated FAIRLY.

  219. C Waltz: Personally, I believe that people are entitled to some privacy and don’t owe anyone a full accounting of their life. There is a reason they call it ,”their life.”

    That was in response to a question I asked. When I am paying someone’s salary with my taxes, and they brag about their White House job on gossip sites, I think I have a right to know which of Rahm Emanuel’s deputies they work for. Just my opinion.

    As for fantasizing, I’ve never opposed it.

  220. CWaltz — yawn.

  221. That said CW, I can’t believe you have a problem with fantasy as a concept. After all we’ve been thru.

  222. Whoa, CWaltz. Come on now. What is bothering you? Seriously, you are a valued commenter here. What are you so upset about? Did I miss something?

  223. CWaltz, We try. I’m not saying We’ve never made a mistake but, BB, MyIQ & I have been watching these threads for a long time now and I think we do a pretty good job.

    I’d probably come down a little harder on the delete button (I HATE fights and hard-talk), but they (and Riverdaughter) keep me in check.

  224. 3W — Yeah, the sport-utes that never venture off road. I hate those things with a passion. I’ll drive endless miles of logging roads to get to a trailhead in my little passenger car, and park amid dozens of those gas-guzzlers. I really hate that those SUVs go so slow over the potholes — any NW native knows you have to drive fast enough to sail over the potholes!

  225. Golly Gee let’s have a quilting bee and sit around sipping mint juleps while we dish about contraception. It is the only thing a feminist cares about

  226. It is close to midnight. Anyone who regularly visits this blog during the day will find the Front Pagers writing about topical events and people which in turn invites commentary and often leads to discussion. Some heated, others philosophical.

    The Front Pagers put a tremendous effort into their work. No one could ever possibly disagree. And their work is much appreciated by those of us who read and digest them with the avidness which has grown out of their thinking patterns.

    Often threads tend to wander off topic. It happens. So many voices wish to be heard. But that would be the same in any conversations taking place at dinner tables or outdoor barbecues. No insult is meant when it happens.

    The monitors take care to ensure that the commentators employ the thread in a dignified and civil a manner as possible. They should be applauded for their efforts.

    But as it happens when the thread veers into another direction, possibly due to the lateness of the hour, the posters recognize that this is merely a way to break from the tensions of the day. We need to display a sober attitude at all times. Sorry if those of us who digressed created a bother. It was not meant as such.

  227. ZOMG!

    The fucktards from blogstalkers have crapped all over Egalia’s place.

  228. Angie,

    I agree with you about Paul Newman’s beauty, but for sheer sex appeal, I’d go with the young Marlon Brando.

  229. I admit to being incredibly passive aggressive because my urge to say “oh, the fuck with that” when someone says something I don’t agree with but that’s not productive so i shove a pickle in my mouth and call it a draw.

  230. Uh-oh, what’d I miss?

  231. myiq,

    Did you miss seeing “Streetcar Named Desire?”

  232. Thanks Pat Johnson. I know wisdom when I see it.

  233. for sheer sex appeal, I’d go with the young Marlon Brando.

    Oh, my — This is so true. I’ll never forget the first time I saw (young) Brando in a movie at a Revival House and a full sized screen. It was like a physical blast.

  234. I’m with BB on the young Brando over the young Newman. Very close though.

  235. Pat, That was a wonderful, kind and generous comment.

    But, I don’t want anyone except me taking responsibility for dragging this thread off topic.

    We needed a break and I opened the bar. THAT made it an open thread.

  236. katiebird, on January 28th, 2009 at 12:01 am Said:

    CWaltz, We try. I’m not saying We’ve never made a mistake but, BB, MyIQ & I have been watching these threads for a long time now and I think we do a pretty good job.

    I’d probably come down a little harder on the delete button (I HATE fights and hard-talk), but they (and Riverdaughter) keep me in check.
    This is the best moderated liberal blog. For me it has become what a few of the “old” lefty blog appeared to be until they drank the kool-aid.

  237. I also think the young (and middle-aged) Robert Mitchum was incredibly sexy, but I have always been attracted to the bad boy type.

  238. Who is Egalia?

  239. Everyone — We have so many qualities in common — I hate seeing emphasis on what sets us at odds w/each other.

    (Oh crap, I’ll be talking about uniting not dividing next.) Not to be soppy, but I think most of the time we do so well. A breather once in a while to see if something was taken out of context — we can’t see the other’s expression on the blog — and to give each other the benefit of the doubt.

  240. Did you miss seeing “Streetcar Named Desire?”

    I didn’t miss it a bit.

    But I once saw “A Jitney Named Jonesing”

  241. 3 Wickets,

    Only for the sex appeal. Otherwise, Paul Newman has to be one of the most gorgeous men I’ve ever seen.

  242. Pat — what you said.

  243. Hey everybody… what’d I miss?

  244. the bus named desire drives around a few blocks from me… does that count?

  245. Three Wickets…I made my hubby’s dream come true by taking him to Montana to fish in the Gallatin last year(where “The River Runs Through it” was filmed.) What a gorgeous place!

  246. Frenly, Nothin’ — want a drink?

  247. Puma in Seattle,

    I agree, but it will all sort itself out. Everyone has a bad night–even me {{smiling}}.

  248. katiebird: ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥ ♥

  249. hi elder … we got to send out props to regency’s mom for raising such a great woman!

  250. Hi elderj!

  251. katiebird: you have to watch last The Simpsons to get that thing about Egalia

  252. BB

    Evidently I’m a mole bb and a boring one at that(It’s a great conspiracy theory).

    It bothers me that people think they have the right to be judge and jury. It bothers me that if I don’t think a certain way that I must not “get it”. I saw this kind of behavior during the primaries and didn’t like it. I still don’t.

  253. In my frustration, I just ate half a bag of potato chips!

  254. Thanks, dakinikat — I’ll watch for it. I usually catch up late with Simpson’s episodes.

  255. Resident scary evangelical checking in…


  256. BB, absolutely on Newman, RIP, he used to live closeby.

  257. This is a great blog, a place of sanity, and my gratitude to all the front pagers and moderators.

    Tr0ll swatting must get old, except for myiq who keeps thinking of creative and nasty things to do with ’em.

    Now I must go catch up on clinic paperwork and keep those $#*%&* insurance cos happy.

  258. The resident black Ann Coulter is about to blow her hair weave

  259. I’m going to bed. This has been a busy day and it looks like tomorrow is another one.

  260. SOD, that’s on my to do list, after visiting NOLA.

  261. CWaltz,

    I don’t think that, and I didn’t say that. Sometimes people just disagree. You can’t take it personally. We all have to allow each other to be who we are.

    Personally, I don’t think make up or high heels are inherently bad or damaging to women. But I respect it if you do. We just can’t demand that the other one change their opinion.

  262. Night Katiebird.

  263. Three Wickets, on January 28th, 2009 at 12:06 am Said:

    Down, afrocity, pretty please.

    Ok, I’m getting teed off — afrocity is not a dog & any attempt to at humor in this post was completely off the mark.

  264. TW — We stayed in Big Sky MT and visited Yellowstone..EVERYONE needs to see Yellowstone. What a fabulous place. Between Big Sky and Yellowstone you can access three of the world class fly fishing rivers there: the Gallitan, the Madison and the Yellowstone.

  265. CW, but you have strong opinions too, and that’s just fine. We’re all fine. Can’t we just all get along!! (channeling that guy on the asphalt in LA).

  266. oh brother are we back to heels and make up and if that’s misogynistic? and afrocity was called a dog?? See this is what happens when I leave you guys alone to play by yourselves.

  267. Don’t do that Afrocity, we need you in one piece! What happened with the impeachment trial today? Did they vote yet? I’m rooting for Blago, I must admit.

  268. Anytime a topic revolves around feminism, abortion rights, and religion, the blog is sure to get heated. A large part is owed to generational divides. This blog has the fortunate flavor of attracting people from all over the country, raised with different values, separated by age, race, and gender, and all having very strong opinions.

    Some are expressed soberly, others with wit. But the unification resides in the principles we share. Deep down we are basically the same.

  269. there’s no place like NOLA ….

    there’s no place like NOLA ….

    there’s no place like NOLA…

    can i get a witnesssssss!!?!!!!!

  270. btw — I agree about Marlon Brando re: raw sex appeal (my doggie, may he rest in peace, was named Marlon Brando) But I, like bb, am talking about sheer beauty when I say Paul Newman

  271. night KB!!

    Dak — AMEN!

  272. But why be personal and mention Bobbi Brown? Angie was my secret Santa and gave me a lip pallet for my gift. I was offended by the comment.

    I have in the last two days been called a non feminist and basically told that AA’s need to have abortions and I guess my mom should have because I was raised on welfare. I am pro choice but keeping the fetus is a choice too. Tired of this who is/not a feminist witch hunt.

  273. Three Wickets, on January 28th, 2009 at 12:06 am Said:

    Down, afrocity, pretty please.

    OK, I missed that. Three Wickets, please leave the moderation to those of us whose job it is OK? I’m deleting your comment.

  274. Boomer — It’s great theatre!

  275. Thank goodness for elderj — the calming voice of reason.

  276. SOD — Oh I hope Blago does burn the whole thing down.

  277. Amen Dak Amen. I was offered a job in NOLA after a two day interview and declined because as I told them, “Within 2 weeks I’d be living in the gutter because I’ve had too much fun.”

  278. Blago is like a gift that keeps on giving! You gotta love the guy for this. He has been on more programs in the last two days than Billy Mays selling Orange Glo!

  279. Well if someone had said “down” to me, I wouldn’t have blinked an eye. But maybe that’s cause I’m a sturdy guy.. I apologize, sincerely. I still have more respect for afrocity than that..

  280. Afrocity is my feminist hero!!!! {{{ luvs afrocity!}}}

  281. New thread up!

  282. BB,

    American Thinker has a post on why they love Blago. He is the new political “bad boy” like James Dean.

  283. Pat,

    I’m willing to respect other peoples opinions. I’m not the one who insists that if I don’t see misogyny in person posing in a magazine that I just don’t get sexuality. I’m also not the one accusing someone of coming here to sow dissent. I came here when offered a link here at TL back as far as the primaries but evidently it wasn’t really because I supported Hillary but because I want to sow dissent.

  284. afrocity is exactly right — the ONLY person who got “personal” here is CWaltz — and she felt the need to bring it up on her own accord in this thread when the prior thread was closed. I actually don’t know what I said in the previous thread that was so hypocritical — I stand by everyone of my comments. It is a fact that the sexual objectification of women leads to assaults & abuse of women. The fact that the woman in question here consented to that objectification of herself is irrelevant. That is all I said. And, again, I stand by that.

  285. CWaltz,

    To quote from one of Paul Newman’s best movies, “What we have here is a failure to communicate.” No one actually said that a person posing in a soft porn magazine is equal to misogyny. That just didn’t happen. I felt misunderstood in that argument too, and I’ll bet we weren’t the only ones. It’s a difficult subject. Please just let go of it for tonight. Where’s your wonderful hubby?

  286. I’m willing to respect other peoples opinions.

    and you came here to call me out on my hypocrisy? Physician heal thyself.

  287. Oh goody. Going to look, now Afrocity!

  288. afrocity — I cannot seem to maneuver around the AT site. I’m always lost over there.

  289. CWaltz: I think you will agree that often things get taken out of context as there is no room for inflection when the communication is essentially typing. I am sorry that you feel this way; I don’t think it was ever meant to happen.

    As I said, there is a generational difference in how we view feminism and what constitutes feminism itself. Women need to construct their own definition and not be constructed in the presentation that the male seeks.

    Disagreement is healthy. But it should never be taken personally. We are merely bloggers after all.

  290. Mum says that the debate was definitely spirited. She also waves back. i think she went to bed now though.

  291. Regency,

    See if you can get her to join in next time. Judging by the daughter she raised, I’m guessing she is a very unique and interesting person.

  292. Heh

    Yeah accusing someone of being here to sow discontent isn’t personal.

    Women have been assaulted and abused before these magazines existed. If these magazines were to all fold up tomorrow assault and abuse would still exist(as they do in country’s that don’t have Maxim). Why a person chooses to do something is completely relevant. For all you know she did it because she thought it was empowering(which of course you are going to say is the result of patriarchy and round and round we go).

    If I don a pair of high heels it may have absolutely nothing to do with men. It may simply be about ME. Likewise, if this woman chose to disrobe, it may not have been about being an OBJECT FOR MEN. It may have been about proving something to herself. The fact that men get off on it(which they could do if she were dressed in a pair of pants and a shirt) is what I consider irrellevant. It’s why CHOICE matters.

    We see this diametrically opposite.

  293. If you can’t see hypocrisy in fantasizing about imaginary relationships, when basically that is what Maxim magazine is about, I don’t know what to tell ya.

    In the case of men the relationship is sexual. The fact that you take it a step beyond doesn’t make you superior.

  294. angienc2, on January 27th, 2009 at 11:07 pm Said:

    (snip)I do feel sympathy for us Crying Cassandras who will have to suffer along with them, but at least we will have the comfort of knowing we were right & they were wrong. I’m totally ok with that.

    The mob/masses are so easily manipulated — and they keep letting it happen again and again and again.

    The mob/masses also fall for the same sort of guy — again and again and again.

    Each one of these con artists seems to be worse and more corrupt than the last guy.

    Yep — Cassandras can see and more important we REMEMBER. The same trick or variation 235 of the same trick will NOT work on us ever again.

  295. I’m late to the party and no one will read this post but angie: I hated hated hated “Forrest Gump.” That movie’s casting director works out of the same office where I work and I have to look at the movie’s stinking poster (autographed by Tom) every day – and I spit on it every day, too! One thing to remember is that “Benjamin Button” is directed by David Fincher, who doesn’t do sentimental schlock. He’s one of my favorite directors. What was that line spoken by Helena Bonham Carter they had to cut out of “Fight Club?” Oh yeah: “I wanna have your abortion,” she said. I understand that line was a replacement for “I haven’t been f*cked like this since grade school.” (That’s grade school.) That’s David Fincher for you! He’s a badass.

  296. I am amazed that the public believes that the stimulous money is aimed at them. People actually t5hink that this money is going to get them a job, help pay the mortgage, reduce their debts. Everybody is still hopey-changey. They have no conception of how much money we are talking about and that this is a one-time deal. There is no money and Congress with Obama want to spend as quickly as possible more money than this country spends in a year. As for buying up toxic assets, this will do nothing more than prop up the inflated prices of homes, food, utilities. There needs to be a correction and it should begin with the banks. They are killing us with fees already. This bill says go ahead, keep doing what you’ve been doing, we’ll help ya.

  297. Katiebird, That’s Fabianisn not Republicanism!
    Checkout the Fabians New Deal, the facts of it and not the fairy stories that have been built around it.

  298. The news seems to get worse every day. The only thing we can hope for, it seems to me, is that the people of America will one day soon wake up. We do have a democracy, no matter how much it’s been ravaged, and we can vote these a$$hats out. And we can stop this legalized robbery and put the fat cat thieves in jail. It can happen. We just need to come together on common ground and present a unified front.

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