• Tips gratefully accepted here. Thanks!:

  • Recent Comments

    William on Another “Morning After…
    Seagrl on Another “Morning After…
    Seagrl on Another “Morning After…
    Ga6thDem on Another “Morning After…
    William on Another “Morning After…
    Ga6thDem on Another “Morning After…
    Ga6thDem on Another “Morning After…
    William on Another “Morning After…
    Alessandro Machi on Another “Morning After…
    jmac on Another “Morning After…
    Propertius on It is Time for Drastic Ac…
    jmac on It is Time for Drastic Ac…
    James Bowater on It is Time for Drastic Ac…
    William on WORDLE!
    jmac on WORDLE!
  • Categories

  • Tags

    abortion Add new tag Afghanistan Al Franken Anglachel Atrios bankers Barack Obama Bernie Sanders big pharma Bill Clinton cocktails Conflucians Say Dailykos Democratic Party Democrats Digby DNC Donald Trump Donna Brazile Economy Elizabeth Warren feminism Florida Fox News General Glenn Beck Glenn Greenwald Goldman Sachs health care Health Care Reform Hillary Clinton Howard Dean John Edwards John McCain Jon Corzine Karl Rove Matt Taibbi Media medicare Michelle Obama Michigan misogyny Mitt Romney Morning Edition Morning News Links Nancy Pelosi New Jersey news NO WE WON'T Obama Obamacare OccupyWallStreet occupy wall street Open thread Paul Krugman Politics Presidential Election 2008 PUMA racism Republicans research Sarah Palin sexism Single Payer snark Social Security Supreme Court Terry Gross Texas Tim Geithner unemployment Wall Street WikiLeaks women
  • Archives

  • History

  • RSS Paul Krugman: Conscience of a Liberal

  • The Confluence

    The Confluence

  • RSS Suburban Guerrilla

    • Yet another criminal plot
      NEW: A newly released Census Bureau email details the scope of former President Donald Trump administration's attempts to tamper with the 2020 census, including pressuring civil servants to alter plans for protecting privacy and producing accurate datahttps://t.co/TPz5YoZNC5 — Hansi Lo Wang (he/him) (@hansilowang) January 15, 2022
  • RSS Ian Welsh

    • Week-end Wrap – Political Economy – January 16, 2022
      Week-end Wrap – Political Economy – January 16, 2022 by Tony Wikrent Strategic Political Economy [Twitter, via Naked Capitalism 1-10-2022] World's greatest democracy pic.twitter.com/Hmnmhptxiv — Mary Tracy (@MaryTracy) January 9, 2022 . Heather Cox Richardson, January 14, 2022 [Letters from an American] Yesterday, by a vote of 6 to 3, the Supreme Court […]
  • Top Posts

You Talk Too Much

From Swanspirit:

The latest stat I heard was that if a woman speaks for over 25% or 30% of the conversation WITH A MAN or MEN in almost any interaction, professional or social or personal …she is considered overbearing and monopolising the conversation …

144 Responses

  1. Based on the amount of violence men are involved in I’d say they don’t talk enough. NOthing like handling things like two year olds squabbling in a sandbox.

  2. I wish men talked more; I hate carrying on discussions all by myself!

  3. OT but Blago has gone mad

    ABC gets first Blago interviews; ‘GMA’ and ‘The View’

    The rumors were true! ABC has nabbed Gov. Blagojevich for his first national television interviews since corruption allegations in November, according to a network spokesperson.

    On Monday, Blagojevich will appear live on Good Morning America, skipping his impeachment trial that starts the same day. Following that, he will appear on “The View” with this wife, Patti.

    UPDATE: ABC anounced Friday that the network had snared the first Blago interview, but that was before he went to NBC. Blagojevich said down with NBC’s Amy Robach for an interview airing on Sunday’s “Today” and “NBC Nightly News.” In the interview, Blagojevich put himself in some pretty illustrious company: Mahatma Gandhi, Nelson Mandela and Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.


  4. I’d say they didn’t listen enough.

  5. LOL i love it !! Thank you so much ..and I have one for YOU !! myiq
    This is what Sam Donaldson looks like to me after making that statement , but of course his singing ability is not on a par with Joe Jones

  6. Blago makes me laugh. The guy takes liscense for sure but he is extremely entertaining and I am hopeful that if he goes down he takes a half a dozen Obama faithful with him.


    Evidently it is too taxing to filter a conversation and sift through to get the main points for some men.

    Personally I am all for a “Use your words” campaign.

  7. That seems to resonate purplefinn. Though what Swanspirit said definitely applies in the professional workplace and boardroom. I once worked at a corporation with a woman CEO. From time to time I would overhear conversations on the stairs between senior male executives talking about how the “woman” had to be replaced. And they would not even whisper, thinking of course that as a man I would be on board, maybe spread the dissent. Dark ages!

  8. This is what Sam Donaldson looks like to me

    You were referring to the one on the right with the big ears?

  9. myiq2xu, on January 25th, 2009 at 4:20 pm Said:
    This is what Sam Donaldson looks like to me

    You were referring to the one on the right with the big ears?

    Take your pic BUT now that you mention it the big earred one looks like bo when his inner beauty is showing

  10. Reading that about Blago, I could just feel the sweat seeping out of Rahm.

  11. Something I said? Rahm, have you been lurking?

  12. Oh yea? Well, I’ve got something to say about that…

  13. Blago is my new favorite celebrity.

  14. This may be OT but a weekend note. I just finished reading Galbraith’s book on The Great Depression of 1929. In the intro he says about the era that it was a time when “glamour was a substitute for substance”. That really did ring with me and reminded me of what I so dislike about the Obama reign.

    The latest New Yorker has an Obama with a George Washington wig on his head on its cover. The article on Obama as Pres is actually very good. There is an excellent article there about health care systems—much of which blows out a lot of the myths we have about European and Canadian approaches. It turns out all those systems are actually unique to each country. The article talks about the importance of the past as pathway and why ideological approaches to systemic change crash. Quotes a lot of Krugman’s research on why this is so. It also helps me understand at a deeper level why Hillary’s approach was Krugman’s pick and our best bet. There is also an article in this same issue on the concept of Smart Power—came from a woman and Hillary is the person who has brought that term forward—not Obama, although he is now using it.

  15. If you want to follow what’s going on with HRC at State, you can sign up to receive the daily press briefings, SOS schedule and SOS remarks, etc.

    Info is at No Quarter:


  16. Jangles,
    Thanks for the summary of the latest NYer. My husband reads it, but I stopped doing so long ago. Perhaps I’ll take a look at this issue…

  17. Obama and better test scores for AAs. Look I am probably about as disgusted with the Obama ponzi as anyone here and I do not buy for one moment that Obama will make anyone smarter. However, as one who as worked with inner-city LA gang members, both AA and Hispanic I can say this. If Obama’s election causes AA students to look in a positive way toward school, that can only be a good thing. If AA students begin to attend regularly, actually do school work, believe they can get smart by doing school work—they will improve their test scores dramatically and quickly. I have seen entire classes of AA test takers approach a state mandated test not with any real attempt to do the test but playing games to blow the test in defiance (games like marking the bubbles to imitate gang sign e.g.) I would be very surprised if Obama’s election does not have a positive effect on AA students, particularly male students. PLEASE NOTE: HILLARY’S ELECTION WOULD HAVE HAD A POWERFUL EFFECT ON FEMALE STUDENTS AND THEIR BELIEF IN THEIR ABILITY TO BE POLITICALLY RELEVANT AND FOR SMARTS TO BE AN IMPORTANT QUALITY OF LIFE—BETTER THAN HAVING A HOT BODY.

  18. myiq — OMG OMG OMG — where do you find that stuff???!!!

  19. he he he


  20. myiq: you are one sick dude.

    & we love ya 🙂

  21. 😎

  22. TOTALLY off topic:

    I wish I understood this post Senate Stimulus Package: Tax Cuts, Social Security & SSI, by Angry Bear

    Currently payroll taxes got to pay for Social Security and Medicare Part A with any cash surpluses credited to the Trust Funds where in turn they draw interest against the time when the Trust Funds need to start being tapped. Which under Intermediate Cost assumptions is 2017. In 2008 the cash surplus for Social Security was right around $80 billion. Given current unemployment numbers we can expect 2009 to come in below that, perhaps $20-30 billion less. If that is right this proposal would more than wipe out the first year surplus ($57 bn plus $15 bn) and likely wipe out the 2010 as well ($57 bn). Unless the Trust Funds are somehow made whole you have blown a big hole in Social Security, because not only will it have lost the cash surplus, it also will lose out on all accrued interest on that, which with compounding adds up to a pretty big total hit to a program whose ‘crisis’ is marked by a gap between projected revenue and projected costs after 2017.

    This doesn’t bode well for the financial summit next month. Because it would seem that the initial response to ‘crisis’ is to choke off revenue which in turn brings Trust Fund shortfall closer and deeper. Which would seem to grease the slide for a benefit cut based ‘solution’. Was Social Security a ‘Phony Crisis’ as Dean Baker insisted in 1999? Well in certainly was and that was still mostly true in 2008. But it looks like someone is trying to make it real through the back door.

    Now it is possible that the proposal does aim to make Social Security whole. But this raises some issues of its own. Social Security as currently configured has no way to hold cash, so a direct transfer from the Treasury is out of the question. The program could be changed in a way that allowed the Treasury to use cash to purchase outside assets and so credit those to the Trust Funds but this would require opening up Social Security itself to all kinds of malicious tinkering, and so probably should be avoided. Which leaves the standard option of Treasury simply crediting the TF with Special Treasuries in the amount of the diverted payroll tax. On paper this would make the TFs whole and avoid the loss of those years of interest. While less than ideal this would be for me an acceptable resolution to the problem created by the dollar diversion to stimulus. I just wish we were not going down this path at all.

    I’ve heard Obama talk about a Social Security crisis. Could he actually be talking about a plan?

  23. Jangles, thanks, on both counts.

    IQ, are you seeing a doctor, because I know some really good ones in the bay area. I know they’d take good care of you.

  24. I just got back from the Tut exhibit at the Dallas Museum of Art and the gift shop had a paperback entitled something like The Boy King and a picture with Tut’s headdress and the face of Obama.

    I’m not kidding. The Boy King, indeed. It was disgusting.

  25. Jmac, Was it “The Boy King” or “The Boinking”? 😉

  26. Jmac, on January 25th, 2009 at 5:59 pm

    That book been around for awhile. One of those things that causes one think Barry has been in the hooper for some time.

  27. katiebird, on January 25th, 2009 at 5:48 pm Said: …..I’ve heard Obama talk about a Social Security crisis. Could he actually be talking about a plan?

    IMO, the plan is Barry is coming after it. That was Bush’s one failure, as far as the Upper Crust is concerned

  28. paper doll, on January 25th, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    oops!….wrong thread

  29. Isn’t this the right thread?

  30. myiq, great post!

    About 2-3 yrs ago a sociology study came out summarizing upteen thousand hours of conversation by men per day vs women per day.

    Guess what? In spite of the stereotypical female who yaks all day long, women actually talked, per day, only about 1-2% more than men.

    Of course, in “mixed groups” it was 80% M, 20% female time-wise. I’ll try to find the journal reference.

  31. Jmac – I saw the same King Tut exhibit in April of 2005 or 2006 – it was phenomenal.

    Obama is more like the Assh_le King or King of the Assh_les, as opposed to “Boy” King.

  32. Katiebird – KISMET.

    I was just searching for latest Hillary photos for article ideas on Yahoo search and saw that & said the same thing!!!!!!!!!!

  33. ♥ — I’d love to see it in your post, SM!

  34. I have something scheduled for 2 hours from now. I hope that’s ok???

  35. Top Obama aides subject of Blagojevich subpoenas

    Sweeping federal subpoenas of Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich’s administration include requests for records involving David Axelrod and Valerie Jarrett, senior advisers to President Barack Obama.

    Among 43 subpoenas released by the Blagojevich administration Friday, one from Dec. 8 seeks notes, calendars, correspondence and any other data that relate to Axelrod, Jarrett and 32 other people and organizations.

    The Illinois House impeached Blagojevich earlier this month. A Senate trial over his ouster starts Monday, and Blagojevich said Friday that he will not participate because he believes the process is unfair.

    The 43 subpoenas released Friday under the Freedom of Information Act, plus seven previously disclosed, cut a wide swath through the beleaguered administration, demanding everything from complex hiring records to Patricia Blagojevich’s appointment calendar.


  36. I’m still trying to figure out how they plan on distributing the tax cut/break/credit since supposedly the unemployed and others are supposed to get the 500 dollars/ 1000 dollars as well.

  37. katiebird,

    I don’t know Angry Bear. Basically, the point the Bear is making is that the $800 billion stimulus package will cost money, and paying for it will threaten our entitlement (excuse the use of that word) programs.

    As we know, at some point in the future, 2017 or sooner, the revenue from income tax will not be enough to cover the SS payouts to the retired. (Medicare would work the same way.) Till now, the pattern has been that tax revenues cover the payouts, then whatever is remaining (surplus) goes into the entitlement Trust Funds to earn interest. But since we have to pay for this ginormous stimulus package somehow, the thinking is that nothing will be left over as surplus after the payouts, and in fact we may have to dip into the principal, the Trust Funds themselves, which would be the beginning of the end.

    Now Angry Bear also thinks maybe Obama is thinking about tackling the entitlement reform issue at large, within the stimulus package itself somehow. To me, that seems ambitious, but that’s just me. The options that Bear sees for tackling this within the package all involve some kind of transfer of funds from the Treasury. (The Treasury, which basically has two main jobs, collecting taxes and printing money.) So any solution to try and head off the threat to the Trust Funds would essentially involve printing money (cause tax revenues are going down with the economy, and also we’re getting a tax cut, yay, snark). He finds that acceptable, I do not, but whatever. In my view, It would result in deeper deficits, devaluation of the currency, and a potential big D depression-like deflationary spiral for the economy.

    I have great respect for Paul Krugman, but I wish he would help me understand how we handle this issue of the deficit as the government presumably spend its way out of our recession. If anyone knows how Krugman sits on that point, I would be grateful..

  38. IQ, are you seeing a doctor

    I was dating a school teacher for a while, but right now I’m not seeing anyone.

  39. I saw a Tut exhibit way back in grade school. One of the benefits of growing up on Lawn Guyland was lots of exposure to culture. My husband laughed because we went in a consignment shop the other day that was playing opera and I sighed. It made me wistful.

  40. The sad thing is that Social Security has had surpluses for a while and if it hadn’t been utilized to pad the budgets for war and all sorts of other gimmees we probably wouldn’t even be talking about a shortfall.

  41. Three Wickets, I think I saw somewhere in there that there is a proposal for a Payroll Tax Holiday (for workers, possibly not employers) and (I thought) Angry Bear is worried that the Payroll Tax Holiday will cause a Social Security Shortfall.

    For workers we have a proposal for a $500 tax cut per worker, $1000 per couple for 2 years, to be delivered via a payroll tax holiday on the first $8100 for each worker.


    Instead we have lower income workers having much to most of their federal tax burden eliminated for at least a two year period. Which is good for them in that sense, but ends up validating the Right talking point that poor people don’t pay taxes. In reality poor people pay all kinds of taxes directly and indirectly from sales taxes to property taxes funded via their rent payments. And until this proposal came along in the form of FICA payroll taxes to fund a combined insurance/pension plan. Now it looks like that dignity of largely paying for your own retirement is at least temporarily stripped away.

    And, I guess my fear is that by calling for this “holiday” we’re taking the first step toward making Social Security an Option rather than an Obligation.

  42. Katiebird – GO RIGHT AHEAD & USE THE PHOTO please!-

    I was thinking about doing a post on Domestic President Obama vs. Foreign President Clinton… but my thoughts aren’t all there yet.

    (I’m indulging in some CVS Oak Creek 3.00 wine right now!)

  43. SM, No I meant I’d love it if you used it. I’ve got the Book Club post scheduled. But, the photo wouldn’t fit into that at all….

  44. CWaltz, whatever happened to that “lock box” idea?

  45. Downticket – HA!!!!!!!!!

    Valarie Jarrettt the Real Estate executive now Obama Staffer was one of the seantorial picks to “buy” the seat.

    Jesse Jackson Jr. was the second choice.

    I’m doing a happy dance none of them got it.

    I just WISH that Cabbage Patch Blago spills the beans!!!!!!!

    Rezko is hoping for a presidential pardon – which he’ll get.

    C’mon Blago, give us the scoop!

  46. Katiebird: I’m not going to post today anyways. I only mentioned it because you posted the exact photo I was admiring not even minutes ago.

  47. They have been after SS for years….very actively since Newt got in in ’94. They will use this down turn as the cover for all matter of looting. As I explained to my WW2 era father in law, if the economy is in any way fixed, the bailouts will cease. So it will not be fixed. Bailouts are not the means, but the ends.

    in a way Hill had to leave the domestic stage because she could not stop the blood bath on the horizon .Thankfully she’s on the world stage .

  48. sm77, on January 25th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

    I think Blago has gone mad. He is going to skip his impeachment trial for guest spots on morning shows and the view. He is in serious trouble but he doesn’t seem to care about that.

  49. OK, I went to check the professional literature and …… Big Surprise! The claims that women talk more than men are not backed up by any good studies. The studies done with appropriate research methods have had varying results, depending on situation, topic, and other variables. For “gender neutral” topics, men tended to talk more than women.

    For a more detailed bashing of the “women talk too much” concept, see:

    BTW that entry also points out that the research does not support the concept that women think about sex much less often than do men, per day.

  50. The weird thing about the book on Tut with Obams’s face was it was a book about Tut. I can’t imagine buying a book on Queen Victoria only someone put Hillary’s face under her crown- just too weird.

    We’re all being boinked all right.

  51. sm77, on January 25th, 2009 at 6:47 pm Said:
    Rezko is hoping for a presidential pardon – which he’ll get.
    I doubt it. Obama uses people like toilet paper then throws them away. More important is the reason that Bush didn’t give a pardon to Libby as he left office. A full pardon would mean that Rezko (Libby) would loose the 5th amd. rights of self incrimination. Rezko would, if asked, have to tell everything about his dealings with Obama. Ain’t gonna happen.

  52. Downticket – this is why he is ripe for an on air meltdown.

    PLEASE, dear God/Goddess, let BLAGO blow!

  53. I also noticed a lot of the exhibits had BCE and then a date.

    BCE stands for Before the Common Era and is replacing AD and BC.

    Does O’Reilly know about this?

  54. Downticket, on January 25th, 2009 at 6:52 pm Said:

    sm77, on January 25th, 2009 at 6:47 pm

    I think Blago has gone mad. He is going to skip his impeachment trial for guest spots on morning shows and the view. He is in serious trouble but he doesn’t seem to care about that.
    It’s not a crazy as it appears. The Senate “trial” is a political process and not a judicial trial. Blago is trying to counter politics with politics. Will it work? Probably not…but neither will showing up.

  55. Smart Power: Hillary has used this term frequently as she moves forward as SOS. Smart Power was the title of an article written by Suzanne Nossel in a 2004 issue of Foreign Affairs. The essence: “You can be too hard, you can be too soft, and you can be too clever by half. But you can’t be too smart.”

    Nossel was a deputy under Ricard Holbrooke in the Clinton Administration. Her blog is DemocracyArsenal.org. Married to David Greenberg, Rutgers history prof and Slate commentator.

    Her comment on the SOS.
    “Hillary was impressive. She didn’t gloss over the difficulties, but at the same time she was fundamentally optimistic. She’s saying that , by using all the tools of poser in concert, the trajectory of American decline can be reversed. She’ll make smart power cool.”
    I think we have an admirer here.

  56. katiebird,

    It’s a tough call. Lower income workers could use the help, but so could the unemployed and retirees who are not solvent. I believe the plan currently calls for about a third of the stimulus package to go the tax break. But that is meant to be a tax break that energizes or at least warms the economy up a bit, not necessarily as a safety net. Still, given how uncertain the economic outlook, it seems unlikely that people are going to rush out and spend that $500 or $1000 when they get it, which is supposed to be the point of the stimulus tax break. So one needs to weigh the impact of the significant tax cut against the risk to Social Security and Medicare. Again, if people are not going to be immediately spending the $500/1000 checks they get, than govt fiscal responsibility could be the better path, with a longer view, especially for retirees.

  57. We are in a post rule of law era and Blago has as good a chance on the View as he does in a court. lol!! Both are scenes of kabuki playacting .

  58. That should be: all the tools of power.

  59. Bush giving us a few hundred dollars a year or two ago didn’t do anything. Why exactly does Obama think it’s going to do anything now? Or is this not a one-time offer? Because if I get a single check for $500 – I’m not going on a shopping spree.

  60. Summers: We have a trillion dollars to bail out irresponsible lenders but not nearly enough to pay for the entitlement programs we’ve been robbing to pay the bills.

    Okay I am paraphrasing but that pretty much sums up the Obama adminstration and the Democrats position on Social Security. Liberals, my backside.

  61. CWaltz, on January 25th, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    Well put. If things are so tough, what are Bush’s tax cuts left in place?

  62. Stimulus package. What happened to the Obama plan to reduce payroll taxes by $40/wk. Actually the research shows that there is much greater liklihood that people will spend this than if you give them a check for $500 or a !000.

    This is a quote from some of the research by Richard Thaler.

    “If you want people to spend the money, you don’t want to give them one big check, because that makes it more likely that they’ll think of it as “wealth” and save it. You want to give them small amounts over time. And you the the rebate to show up as an increase in people’s take-home pay, because an increase in steady income is more likely to translate into and increase in spending. ” Reducing people’s withholding payments does both—it is in small increments over time and it shows up in their paychecks like a pay increase—for them it is a pay increase because they have more disposable income.

  63. DYB

    Supposedly, those who are working would see an extra $50 in the paycheck for several months. Rather than a lump sum payment.

    I’m still waiting for someone to call Obama on his support for the original stimulus plan and his teams ridiculing the idea of spending on infrastructure when Clinton suggested it. We’d already be a year into the government spending had they listen to thje “girl” to begin with. I think it is astounding that Summers thinks that girls don’t know math. I can balance my budget. That gives me one up on the boy dominated Congress.

  64. Re the shortfall –
    Tax the rich, tax the rich, tax the rich.
    You know those multi-billionaires. Those multi-
    multi-millionaires. Those people who couldn’t spend
    all their money in ten lifetimes. (not the guy with a million
    or two.)
    Redistribution of wealth? Hell, yeah!

    It’ll never happen. I know that. But I can dream,
    right? I know this probably wouldn’t solve everything,
    but it would be a start. Or, who knows, maybe it could.
    But instead we give more money to that sector.
    And Blago exposing Obama people? That’ll
    never happen, either. I think O’s people have taken
    care of that already, and it would have already happened.

    Krugman does address the longterm effect of
    putting more money in now. I don’t remember the
    exact ideas, but the gist is that the results of doing too
    little now are so dire that we have to do that. Also, if
    we rebuild a healthy economy, that money will accrue
    and be paid back. Kind of like investing in a new business.
    Only way bigger.

  65. CWaltz> Honestly, I think that $50 is a drop in a bucket. I’d prefer a lump sum!

  66. sm77: Foreign President/Domestic President—-that concept was actually considered among the academics at least in the 60s 70s—-that the scope of the job had become too big for one person. Looking forward to your post on that topic.

  67. Jangles,
    or it will go to pay for the inflation that we’ve experienced in food and gas. Gas and food are going up despite the low price on oil. 50 dollars isn’t going to do much IMO. As far as I can see they are mainly doing this for political kabuki anyway just as now they are downplaying expectations.

  68. Jmac:

    I saw the Tut exhibit in Ft. Lauderdale’s Museum of Art. The most disappointing part was at the end, when they showed this French scupltor’s view of what Tut would’ve looked like.

    According to the sculptor, Tut looked like a bald Barbra Striesand drag impersonator, yet NOTHING that you saw previously proved that case.

    The most likely image of Tut is the bust:

    He had dark brown skin, large brown eyes, delicate facial features, not this Barbra Streisand in Drag look.

    And if ancient Egyptians can scupt a COW to it’s likeness, see here:

    DON’T TELL ME that King Tut didn’t look like the bust link above.

    (No offense to Barbra Streisand female impersonators)

  69. Redistribution of wealth. That’s what the graduated income
    tax is. They act like this is a new radical evil idea. They
    full well it’s not.
    Actually, redistribution of wealth has been happening
    big time since the Reagan years. Only being distributed
    to them.
    These last bailouts are a “surge” of that process.

  70. Last I heard about those tax breaks – they’d be broken
    down to weekly $!0 more. How much could that help
    the economy? When you think of the total amount
    used for that, it would seem there are better ways
    to use that money.

  71. speaktruth, I’ve always thought we should tax income above $10 million a year at 95% or even more. I mean, really — how much money does a person need?

  72. jangels – I’m still toying with it – I’m HAPPY, but I’m PISSED about it.

    Here we are, needing Hillary’s “Smart Power” on the domestic front (becuse we are all f_ing screwed with Assh_le in Chief) – but then again, Hillary will become that living Statue of Liberty female empowerment symbol for the world. Hillary is proof of what IS GOOD about the USA. and the great thing is, everybody around the world KNOWS SHE CAN undo the Bush/Cheney policies.

    But back home, we suffer while the rest of the world gets the SMART POWER. We end up with Opportunist-in-Chief.

    I’m conflicted about it.

  73. 50 dollars, 500 dollars six and one half or a dozen……..It isn’t going to fix the housing market which is a HUGE factor in this downturn. (How in the world is the median income $40,000 and the median housing price over $200,000? With a $40,000 a year job the median ought to be somewhere around $110,000 when you use 1/3 of a family budget)They need to go ahead and create a moratorium on foreclosures and reassess property values. Come to think of it they need to reassess how they configure poverty. Now would be a great time to do that since it would likely have negligble political consequences.

  74. I’m with CWaltz on the reassessing of property values. I live in NYC – and give me a friggin’ break. An apartment the size of a prison cell in Manhattan costs thousands of dollars of month. I’m not exaggerating. We are spending more than half of our income on a place to live. As Regis says: “IT’S OUT OF CONTROL!!!!”

  75. speaktruth,

    kind of like borrowing from your parents to invest in a business, while you’re living with them not paying rent..

  76. CWaltz – the housing bubble created the MYTH of more value to homes, but thanks to Greenspan & Bushites, banks financed mortgages based on the “bubble” cost, yet the actual value is exactly as you said.

  77. The only thing big and bold about the Obama administration thus far is his ego.

  78. DYB – I used to live on 3rd & 14th st back in the 90s and it was a crack den back in the day. I used to live right across the street from the L train stop. Crack vials, syringes – EVERYWHERE. I split the rent with 2 college roomies at 900 total. 300 each.

    Now, that same dilapidated railroad apt is prolly worth 3000-4000 (if not more) now.

  79. You can figure out who Congress allays itself with though. They ram through bailouts regardless of what the constituency thinks but are hesitant to give the investment sector the finger and tell them it’s their turn to bendover because there are going to be adjustments whether it is peachy keen with them or not.

  80. Exactly, kb. Although I’d be even more moderate. Wait until
    $20 mil/year to go to 95%. Anyway, the concept is
    That much money becomes about power, owning
    people, owning government. So it’s self-perpetuating
    and we don’t have a chance if there’s not someone
    with that power out there fighting for us.
    The changes for a better world are so obvious –
    UHS, programs that help people to help themselves
    (education, business loans), and programs for those
    that can’t help themselves. I’m sure money could
    be found to enact these measures, if it weren’t being
    used for all the wrong things.
    As Barney Frank said, for compassion reasons,
    but also, it would improve the economy for everyone.
    Except those greedy privileged few. Although it is
    becoming obvious that there is “trickle-up economics”.
    Unfortunately, there are still many making money
    in this economy, on the misfortunes of others. (People
    buying foreclosed real estate, stock at low prices.)
    When you have that much money the risk is
    minimal, you can wait it out.

    Was this whole “recession” planned, so some
    can get even richer?

  81. DYB

    A reassessment may or may not affect the apartment dwellers. If the demand is high enough they still might be able to ask for a 4 figure rent even if their property is worth less than that valuewise. That said, fixing property values might make buying more attractive then renting(which could potentially lower rent) and if you actually regulate lenders so that they aren’t approving people making $25,000 a year for $250,000 houses than things might go back on track somewhat. When people are spending 50% of their income on housing that is 50% of their budget already being spoken for and that can not go into buying other things.

  82. Yeah, what sm77 said.

    Actually, on bailouts, housing market, bubbles, all of it comes back to degree of leverage imho, which also translates to degree of risk. We were way over leveraged across most things: banks and brokerages to mortgages to credit cards, so on, and we’ll feeling the pain now. But as hard as it to accept right now, our system of govt and economy needs to run on some leverage, the right level of leverage. Otherwise, we return to horses and carriages.

  83. Kb

    but but then Britney couldn’t buy diamond encrusted bling for little Jayden and Paris would have to forgo that “hot” dog collar and that would be so unfair. Better the old people pay for wars by taking a cut in their “entitlement” program then requiring the CEOs who make 360 times what their workers make pay for it.

  84. The other problem is that house values have gone down
    do much for the middle-class – those who count on their
    houses as their main or only investment in their future.
    As much as people want home prices to be low
    before they buy, once you do buy, you want to see
    appreciation in your main lifetime investment.

    The ironic and evil thing is that prices in NYC
    and other very high end real estate seems not to go
    down at all – so they two-bedroom apartments in NYC
    still are way over a million, and many apartments are
    25 million. (Check out real estate show on NBC early
    Sunday morning.) It’s so outrageous.

  85. Ooh sm77, forgot to ask. When you lived there on 14th, was Julian’s pool hall still open between 2nd and 3rd.

  86. People who bought high are going to lose. Investments don’t always pan out and their is risk in investing in anything.

  87. katiebird, on January 25th, 2009 at 7:27 pm Said:

    speaktruth, I’ve always thought we should tax income above $10 million a year at 95% or even more. I mean, really — how much money does a person need?
    Just going back to the Clinton era tax rate and close some of the obscene loop-holes. One of the worst is compensation for hedge fund directors…They are taxed at 15% and no FICA..these are people who where/are getting >$1 billion/year.

  88. DYB, yeah I used to do 50% of paycheck too for rent. It was sick. And as speaktruth says, what’s up with the non correction in Manhattan condos and coops. I know residential inventory is way up there. People hanging on, not letting go I guess. The wall street tsunami is coming though.

  89. Three Wickets:

    I never made it to 2nd ave unless I walked down 12th st. Too many rapes & muggings were reported between 2ns & 3rd, so I always went down 12th.

    Also what helped – sandwiches & coffee to the homeless out there. I;m a hopeless liberal, so I always was giving out food, clothes, blankets, shoes, money – anything I could afford (and I still do to this day).

    The homeless on 3rd & 14th saved me once from an over aggressive cabbie that locked me in his cab unless I gave him my number. I cracked the window & shouted – they came banging on the cab & horny cab driver let me out.

    NYC is truly a great town.

  90. We definitely need to teach people what an investment is

    “In each case, the consumer obtains a durable asset or investment, and accounts for that asset by recording an equivalent liability. As time passes, and both prices and interest rates change, the value of the asset and liability also change.”

    This sounds mean but I always saw investing as the rich people version of a scratcher. Sometimes you get a winner, sometimes you don’t.

  91. The markets are supposed to really “tank” this week in reaction to horrible economic news from business. The US banking industry is also bankrupt with ~$1.5 trillion in assets and $2.5 trillion in bad loans.

  92. Wuw 15%, I didn’t know that SHV. Is that the “effective” tax rate after the accountants have had at it.

  93. SpeakTruth –

    Yeah, but – the secret is that home values came down to what they are really are worth VS. the Bubble Myth.

    In 2002, my ex-neighbor sold her house for 150,000 – and in my neighborhood, the average is 90-100K.

    So now my new neighbor is paying approx. 50K more what his house is actually worth. THAT’s the problem.

  94. sm77, I feel like I just read a short story. Thanks for that.

  95. They need to do away with the flippin cap on FICA. I’d also like to see investment taxed.I’d be okay with exempting the median income but those that exist solely on investment or mainly on investments shouldn’t be able to escape what the working class schmoe has to pay.

  96. CWaltz,

    The value of the asset and liability do not always move like tango, especially if you have a fixed rate mortage, say.

  97. sm77

    I think that is why they are balking at readjustment myself. The localities rely on those taxes to pay for things, particularly since the federal government has gotten all cut happy regarding taxes.

  98. Jmac–

    Obama is ringer for Akhenaten, Tutankhamen’s father. If you look at BO’s baby picture, the one where his mother is holding him, he looks exactly like the child Tutankhamen.

    Michelle, alas, does not look like Nefertiti.

  99. Three wickets – even with all the typos????


    Yeah, my slooow laptop is an old fillie who’s still chugging along, but at her pace. Some of the keys don’t work unless I BANG the letter hard. But she still runs. It’s a blessing.

    Or it’s the wine.

  100. cwaltz – I think we may be “neighbors” so to speak … I saw in the last post you are SWVA, and so am I.

  101. That’s why Arnold’s having his problems in CA, prop 13. I don’t have a pov on that btw.

  102. Ooh wine, good idea. After puppy gets her pee.

    CWaltz, could you slow down a bit. My keyboard’s giving off a smoky smell.

  103. The value of the asset would fluctuate though based on demand. If you are treating a house like it is an investment then fluctuation makes sense. Personally, I treat mine as a place to live. Instead of paying rent I pay a mortgage(fixed). In two years I will have the luxury of having my housing paid for. That’s just me though. Housing does fluctuate even if you have fixed rates. If a commercial property moves in it can cause your property to depreciate. This idea that an investment will always appreciate vs depreciate seems to be absurd and yet seems to be what many seemed to think would happen forever and ever to their investment.

  104. Three Wickets, on January 25th, 2009 at 8:05 pm Said:

    Wuw 15%, I didn’t know that SHV. Is that the “effective” tax rate after the accountants have had at it.
    Their compensation is taxed at cap. gains rate of 15%

    “In addition to being unregulated, these financial institutions also reap substantial benefits from special tax provisions that, like the regulatory framework, are no longer appropriate. The professional fund managers of these hedge funds and private equity firms are allowed to treat a substantial portion of their compensation as capital gains, meaning they are most likely taxed at 15% rather than the 35% rate that applies to ordinary income such as wages and salary. Such an exemption, however, makes little sense: in economic terms, the fund managers (also known as investment advisors) perform a professional service, much like lawyers or doctors, and receive remuneration for their labor.”


  105. I live in Blacksburg, home of the VT Hokies indigo.

  106. Okasha – YES. There is a resemblance in appearance!

  107. In the military I was considered the “energizer bunny” 3 wickets

    What is this “slow down” of which you speak?

  108. I live in Ferrum, home of the Ferrum Panthers! Cool ~ glad to know I’m not the lone PUMA

  109. As someone who has had a fascination with real
    estate for almost forty years (my first house almost doubled in
    price, I was shocked and delighted),( Plus, it’s also been
    my business), I think some of that bubble vs. true value
    was concocted by who? powers that be – to explain the
    f*cking of the American people. Again, it depends on
    whether you own or want to own.
    There is no real value in real estate. It has changed
    greatly over past fifty – sixty – hundred years.
    A lot of it depends on interest rates, among other
    factors. I think having real estate go down is criminal.
    Only times in my lifetime it has, is under Bush 1 and 2.
    As Dakinkat says, it’s long been for the poor to make
    money and rise into middle class, or even upper class.
    Possible mostly because of leverage. That’s a good
    thing, since it helps the little guy.
    OTH, it hurts the little who wants to buy and can’t,
    because prices have become out of range.
    I believe there must be answers that address needs
    of both groups, though it’s complex. I have a few ideas,
    but won’t go into them now.
    At any rate it’s a complex issue, but fixing prices won’t
    solve it. I think government and banks should be helping
    “little guy” more, maybe guaranteeing more.
    Of course, that kind of consciousness change is my
    answer to everything. And one that the big guys (powerstb)
    don’t want.

  110. SHV, oh that’s right, those damn “fees from profits” they call their compensation. The hedge funds that is.

  111. sm77, but Kenya is a long nile mile away from Egypt. Do we have to begin building a pyramid for Barry now.

  112. CWaltz:

    This is why Florida is in a major shithole without any help for a while. FL’s economy relies on 2 industries: Homebuilding and Tourism.

    Fortunately, I held on to my nest egg and decided to rent when I did have the money to put on a deposit on a house. Nest egg is gone now, but in 2002 I had it and the Federal Reserve dropping the rates as it did felt a little too weird for me to dive into at the moment. I’m not an economist like the great DakiniKat, no am I good at math, but that shit just didn’t feel right!

    How was it that a house that was worth 100K suddenly jump up to 150K in 2 -3 months – and salaries didn’t jump at that same increment? Something in the milk wasn’t clean (at least to me), and my ex-neighbor wanted to sell the house to me and the price she was asking was too high.

    The only way I was going to qualify at the time at the 150K price was with an ARM mortgage.

    Had I done it, I’d be in foreclosure right now.

  113. CWaltz, I knew I should have enlisted when I was young. Now I’m older and huffing and puffing to keep up.

  114. SHB, and again, when “they” talk about raising or lowering
    capital gains tax, they make no distinction between
    guys like this, playing with millions and billions, and the
    little guy, selling a house or forty thousand in stocks, which
    could be lifetime investment.

  115. And CWaltz, appreciation is something to hope for actually, cause that means we’re in a recession and not depression, and that all this money Bernanke is flooding the markets with (which then the banks just hog on to) will eventually result in silly inflation, and real estate is the best hedge against inflation, I think..

  116. Three Wickets:

    Ahkhenaten was also a pariah in Egyptian culture. He had to march out the hell out of Thebes to build Amarna to form his religion. He and his wife were the closest thing to Aten/Ra (the sun god).

    Some scholars attribute the creation of Monotheism to Akhenaten, but even I can acknowledge that Judaism precedes him, as Queen Tiye (Ahkhenaten’s mom) was the daughter of Yuya (Joseph of Technicolor Coat fame).

  117. cwaltz and speaktruth,

    wife and i want to own, we want to own. investment, dirty word. puppy needs a roof.

  118. sm77, I’ll leave that last post of yours for tomorrow’s homework. I do have a problem believing that any monotheism could have preceded Abraham and the whole covenant thing he got into with God over Isaac.

  119. NHC says housing should comprise 1/3 of budget. Over 13 million families are paying 1/2 of their budget. Housing is not in line with wages. Something was going to eventually give. There was a reason they set 1/3 as a benchmark. it allowed a family to have some sort of savings. You couple people paying 1/2 their pay with “creative mortgages” and you have a recipe for disaster.

  120. Three Wickets – there are some books about Ahkhenaten that want to give him that title.

    Queen Tiye (Ahken’s mama) was probably the first cryto-Jew in high places of Egyptian society.

    So nope, he’s not the guy that created Monotheism.

    PS: Abraham was originally was from Mesopotamia, who was inspired by the Divine to lead his people to Canaan. Yes, I know – some will dispute that.

  121. Yup, knew that about Mesopotamia. Always thought that would have been an arduous trek. Btw sm77, not to get too nosy, but when you were in NY, were you also working in advertising/marketing?

  122. ThreeWickets:

    No…I was in college, also working at work study at school & another part time in Kinko’s. I did get to move up & out to the UWS in the 90s & Amstrerdam after I got a better paying job – but I still miss the hardcore street life & the people I met on 14th when it was ghetto to the ghettoest.

  123. TW,
    Then why own if not for investment. (Even if
    investment in security). Otherwise, why not rent.
    Am I picking up resentment between owner and
    potential owners?
    We should be on the same side. Potential owners
    will one day be owners – then what?
    The sides are all of us – against the powerful who
    want to exploit us.

  124. sm77, I was right around there, probably from about a decade earlier than you. 14th was scary, no doubt. But walk below 6th on 2nd avenue, and you were dead. Grand central heroin. But we kept pushing the envelop, because that’s what New York used to be about. Who knows, we may be getting back there again soon, and it won’t feel so damn romantic anymore.

  125. Three Wickets: It truly was. Then NYU moved in. Blech.

  126. speaktruth,

    Because I watched my conservative pay for everything in cash, always, cars, house, no matter how run down we had to be. And I see them today retired, with surprisingly few worry lines. They’ve been in their current house for two decades now, and I don’t see them ever leaving. That’s ownership, at least for them. I do understand the need for dynamism and circulation in the marketplace though. I am personally more from the latter school, but like everyone else, watching interest rates.

  127. SM77, blech is right. Nothing against those kids. But you should see it today. Dorm buildings as far east as 1st Avenue. Sacrilege. Though they keep the Pyramid Club open, like some kind of museum to the days of combat boots and mohawks.

  128. speaktruth,

    that’s “my conservative parents”

  129. I used to go to 6th st to eat great Indian food on a college kid’s budget. Was it 6th st? Ugh, can’t recall, but I think it was 6th st.

    St Mark’s Place WAS THE PLACE. Simply awesome.

    Save the Robots – the BEST afterhours I’ve YET to experience.

    Too many others to remember. Hard times, but great times.

  130. Yes SM77, 6th street.

    YET to experience, again, you mean. Was it still there when you lived there. Forgot about Save the Robots. Used to slam dance there till dawn, go home to take a shower, then go to work. Nice memories, I guess… Main thing was, for all of its many many flaws, it was an edgy downtown. I mean today, Ludlow below Houston is all boutiques and expensive (not for much longer) restaurants.

  131. Three Wickets:

    I don’t know exactly when Save the Robots closed, but I think it was about a few years ago.

    It was definitely there when I lived there during the early to mid 90s. Amazing enough (thanks to my mom), I NEVER did drugs. Never even was tempted to try a toke, line or hit, NOTHING.

    It was all about the music and the vibe.

  132. SM77,

    Can’t say I was always that pure, though I also have a great mom, but STRobots was never about drugs for me. It was just about youthful energy, in the now. And it helped that the music was better (in my memory at least) than it is today. Listen to me go on.. As if I was going to start slam dancing into the walls, right here in my little suburban house. That would get puppy’s attention.

  133. ThreeWickets:

    I forgot to mention all the Long Island Iced teas … yeah… GREAT TIMES indeed!

    But I LOVED Saved the Robots.

    I didn’t partake in slam dancing, too much for me. I was the electronica, deep house person.

    I gotta go to bed soon – taking PUMA cub to schoolearly in the AM & need the sleep…….ACK!!!!!!!


  134. Enigma, Art of Noise, I remember. You’re probably into Thievery and Groove Armada.

    Hope PUMA Cub sleeps well, you too. Come back whenever you can. You know we’ll be here.

  135. EWWW!!! NO.

    Thievery is good. BUT NOT what I was into.

    They are eh, ok. Roger Sanchez, Little Louie Vega, David Morales, etc.

  136. Frankie Knuckles, Francois K, … deep house guys.

  137. Alright already. Off to bed you go. I clearly need to spend more time in Tampa or at least South Beach. Maybe the recession will have cooled down Ocean Drive a bit. Like Disneyland, last time I was there.

  138. I get it. I get it. Not.

  139. SM> You’re absolutely right. Guliani really cleaned up the streets – and the property values have multiplied many times over. If you’d stayed there, you’d be living in prime real-estate!

  140. ThreeWickets> Prices in Manhattan, as someone else pointed out, have not dropped at all. They are continuing to climb, if at a slightly slower pace. I’ve given up any hope of ever living in Manhattan. I live in Queens, where I pay close to 50% on my rent anyway. And I have 1+ hour trip each way to work.

  141. Baa baa ba baaah!

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: