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Israel begins ground assault in Gaza

gaza_strip_may_2005

Talk about it here, but keep it civil.

138 Responses

  1. It’s off topic, but I wondered if any interested editor types near DC had seen this:

    http://washingtonindependent.com/20751/twis-publisher-is-hiring

    It’s been on their site since 12/3

  2. Amnesty International has called for a cease fire. They have also called for Israel to allow humanitarian aid and foreign press into the region.

    If you want to see AI’s take on this visit
    Amnesty.org.

  3. Israel was attacked with bombs. I wish people remembered that when they start crying about the poor Palestinians paying the price for their unprovoked attack. I am sick of this hypocrisy. If it is OK for America to bomb Afhanistan because of 9/11 it is by teh same measure OK for Israel to attack those who attacked her.

    If any other country was attacked with bombs, nobody would ever say a damn thing about their right to defend themselves. Only Israel doesn’t have that right. Ever wonder why?

  4. No one said Israel didn’t have the right to defend itself.

  5. In some ways this invasion feels just as angst ridden and fear inducing as when shock and awe started in Irag. We have talked and involved ourselves in this history in ways that we don’t in other places. Take for example, this week’s Sri Lanka government invasion of the Tamil area. How many people are following it?

    On the other hand, the complaint I heard( I have to check the source.) was that Obama had commented on Mogadishu, but not this Gaza skirmish. His president elect status did not keep him quiet in that instance. Did he have nothing to say?

  6. This is also off topic but I just got my February issue of Bazaar and there is a spread on Michelle Obama and Carla Bruni Sarkozy, first lady of France. It sort of parallels the two as fashion icons. It is laughable because Michelle looks like a man in most of the photos. Carla is a former model, ugh Michelle is –NOT.

    I could barf. IMHO the last first lady that was da bomb fashion wise was Jackie -O. It does not mean just wearing nice clothes but looking beautiful in them. I am sick of the media trying to shove MO down our throats as some fashion “it girl”.
    Grab me a wastebasket so I can puke. I am about to cancel my subscription if they have one more Michelle spread. Not to mention Vogue, Glamour or any of the others bothered to do photo spreads on Sarah Palin who is gorgeous.

  7. Myiq, no offense. You didn’t. But that is not the case with those who littered the comments on the other thread with unrelated mentions.

    Tell me, how the fuck am I supposed to feel when people like angelasmith come and gloat that ISrael’s action – defending itself after being attacked, was condemned? I have family and friends in Israel. My friend Vera’s house in Beer Sheva was bombed. My cousin Sasha is in the reserves and probably deployed in Gaza already, and he has a 3 months old son at home.

    The people who condemn Israel’s right to defend herself are in fact saying loud and clear that Israel has no right to exist. That it’s ok for my people to be bombed and terrorized and lose their possessions, but it is not OK for them to take their fight to those who attacked them.

    THis is what angelasmith’s posts mean. She does not perceive Israel as having a right to exist, and therefore Israel is performing an illegal act in righteously defending herself.

  8. Don’t target civilians in Gaza conflict: rights group
    4 days ago

    NEW YORK (AFP) — Human Rights Watch called Tuesday on Israel and Hamas not to target civilians in their escalating military conflict.

    “Israel and Hamas both must respect the prohibition under the laws of war against deliberate and indiscriminate attacks on civilians,” the New York-based rights watchdog said in a statement.

    Human Rights Watch said that Hamas rocket attacks into Israeli towns did not discriminate between military and civilian targets.

    “The rockets are highly inaccurate, and those launching them cannot accurately target military objects. Deliberately firing indiscriminate weapons into civilian populated areas, as a matter of policy, constitutes a war crime,” the group said.

    Human Rights Watch said that Israeli bombing of Gaza appeared to be “unlawful” and highlighted three incidents it said had resulted in the deaths of 18 civilians, including at least seven children.

    “Additionally, Israel’s severe limitations on the movement of non-military goods and people into and out of Gaza, including fuel and medical supplies, constitutes collective punishment, also in violation of the laws of war,” the group said.

    Nearly 370 Palestinians — around a sixth of them civilians — and four Israelis have died since Saturday in the exchange of fire.

  9. If it’s a war crime, where is your condemnation of Hamas bombing cities in Israel , angelasmith?

  10. HRW didn’t say a fucking thing when hamas bombed the Israeli cities. I guess there’s no such thing as Israeli civilians. Hypocrites

  11. soopermouse,
    Don’t make this personal. Stay on the issue, not personal attacks. Make your point and join in discussion, not accusations of what another meant by their posts.

  12. soopermouse:

    Make your case without attacking other commenters.

  13. Soopermouse:

    I understand that you believe that Israel’s actions are justified. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing.

    But just because someone disagrees doesn’t mean they think Israel doesn’t have a right to exist.

  14. soopermouse, I strongly believe in the right of Israel to exist. I also believe in her right to defend herself.
    I also believe in human rights as inalienable rights that extend to all people regardless of nationality.

    Amnesty Internation and Human Rights Watch
    are organizations dedicated to promoting and defending the rights of everyone. And that means everyone.

  15. Soopermouse – there are two sides to every story. And this story is getting old.

    When I sat in the Senate at NM State University in the late 60’s, we had an Arab and a Jew that went at each other non stop each and every meeting. We could hardly get any regular business done. It was hard to know whether you just wanted to hog tie them and put them in a corner or put them in the yard and tell them to go at each other until one couldn’t stand up any more.

  16. Soopermouse:

    If you can’t refrain from attacking other commenters then you can’t participate in this discussion

  17. …So has anyone had any good flan lately?

  18. Myiq
    if people feel that Israel does not have the right to defend itself, the logical implication of that is that Israel doesn’t have a right to exist. Tell me, which other country was ever told that it had no right to defend itself after it had been attacked? Israel was attacked by Hamas, and none of those who so righteously defend the palestinians’ right to kill Jews said a thing.

    It was OK by them for Hamas to bomb Israel (tacit approval is still approval). But it is not OK for Israel to defend itself. That is clear, isn’t it?

  19. Soopermouse:

    No one is saying Israel does not have a right to defend itself.

    The question is whether the current military actions are really self-defense.

    Make that that case.

  20. If Mexico were continually shelling Texas, and hiding their weapons in civilian and religious buildings, no one would have any problems leveling the entire country.

    We are not talking about this as an isolated incident. The palestinians have had many chances to have peace with Israel. What Clinton helped negotiate would have given the Palestinians almost everything they asked for, but Arafat had to call again for his Intifada.
    One used to be able to argue that Hamas did not represent the Palestinian people, but guess what, they voted them into power. They voted for people who want to destroy the state of Israel. Since Hamas runs their government now, we are not even dealing with terrorism. It’s one state waging war on another. It’s unfortunate civilians will be killed, but start blaming the disgusting Hamas leadership for hiding their weapons caches in civilian areas.

  21. Mawm!

    Thank you for you input and it’s good to see you.

  22. angelasmith:

    If I’m not going to allow soopermouse to attack you I’m damn sure not going to let you attack her, even if you don’t mention her by name.

  23. Myiq
    If a country is attacked, it has the right to defend itself. Israel was bombed for days before she decided to respond, but you won’t see anything about that in the media, do you?

    The situation of Israel is singular because she has been at what amounts to continuous war since 1948. Israel does not know peace. It operates as a country at war, under constant attack, and surrounded by enemies who have significantly better numbers and resources.
    Which means that Israel has to be on the offensive at all times. What has insofar kept Israel’s enemies at bay? the IDF. The fact that whoever dared to attack Israel received swift and brutal retaliation.
    Now that retaliation part is interesting. The purpose of retaliation is not necessarily of revenge, but of prevention as well. Not only to punish, but to discourage the enemy from attacking you again.

    Israel is not dealing with the sort of enemy we are used to. Hamas has made no secret that its purpose is the complete annihilation of Israel at any cost. This is the same organization that the Palestinians have overwhelmingly voted into power, in what amounts to a democratic electoral process. Hamas represents the will of the Palestinians. It doesn’t appear that that will is for peace and progress is there?

    So what happened now? Hamas bombs Israel and the international media doesn’t say a thing, or buries the news on page 15. Israel responds, and the news are framed to appear as if she is the aggressor.

  24. When do the Palestinian people have to take responsibility for continually voting for and enabling these terrorists?

  25. myiq, howdy

  26. Myiq,
    I did not intend to attack Soopermoose, my apologies to both of you if it seemed that way.

  27. May God help the people on both sides to live together before too many more are killed or injured.
    We all have an allotted time on earth.
    If only we could use it wisely and learn to live with each other what great things we could do.
    Hate accomplishes nothing. Living together and working together for a common good accomplishes a lot.
    I pray for the people on both sides.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  28. mawminc,
    Hammas’ terrorist activities are wrong. They are condemned by Amnesty and Human rights watch as well.
    But as for the Palestinian people being responsible for any action that members of Hammas take– I don’t agree with that premise.
    I did not vote for Bush, I did not want Bush, he’s done disgusting things in the name of my country.
    Certainly they are those in the world who would hold be personally responsible for his acts. But that is not fair.

  29. Angelasmith:

    The Palestinians elected Hamas.

  30. San Francisco has been protesting all week — screaming in front of the Jewish Consultant. They remind of the Obots — blaming Israel for bombing. Yet they don’t say one word about the Hamas. Which blows me away. Just like to Obots — blame Hillary for racism and not the true culprit.

    I say — HAMAS — get out of Lebanon and the Gaza Strip. They are funded by Iran and they keep poking at Israel. If Iran could move the Hamas into Canada and Mexico to aim rockets at us — they would.

  31. myiq,
    The American people elected Bush.

  32. to be honest Mawm, I tend to agree with Shtuey- the Palestinians are fucked. There are questions that nobody outside of Israel ever dared to ask, and the answer to those questions might hold a clue about what IS at stake here.

    Why are the Palestinians still in camps? the whole area is filled with THEIR people, people who speak the same language, have the same religion and are more than willing to fund their war and go to war on their behalf… yet don’t care enough to actually do anything to improve their lives.

    Between 1948-1967 some 2 million Jews who lived in the arab countries surrounding Israel moved to Israel. A large number of them were chased out and despoiled of their possessions, some moved more or less of their own will. So we have a transfer of some 2 million people from the arabic countries towards Israel.
    Would it not make sense for the Arabic countries to take in their palestinians brothers in return?

    UNless someone has quite a bit of interest in keepign the Palestinians derelict and in camps, in a state of poverty, anger and fear. Why?
    Because in that state people are very easy to manipulate and use as weapons. The Palestinians are being used as weapons against Israe by their own leaders and brothers, not to mention the PR advantage of keeping the hearts of the stupid westerners in a state of permanent emotional blackmail.
    Israel did the right thing- it took responsibility for the Jews who moved from the surrounding countries. Israel took care of her sons. But the arab countries don’t give a crap about their own brothers. It sure looks like their “brothers” are worth shit to them if they don’t come with the land.

  33. Was every citizen of Afganistan a supporter of Al Queda?

  34. The American people elected Bush

    So don’t we bear responsibility for what he does?

  35. Actually angela, the American people did not elect Bush. He was appointed by the Supreme Court.

  36. Afrocity — no good flan over here —- we are in the midst of making stuffed porkchops (spinach, cheese, pine nuts) , vegetable soup to start the meal, roasted yams, home made croissants and a delicious apple tart with almond creme.

  37. I don’t know the answer to this…perhaps someone else does. How many Palestinians voted for Hammas
    over Abbas. How many Palestinians actually even voted? And with Hammas in the picture, was the election even a fair one? Was it rigged… certainly we’ve seen rigged elections before (I don’t know.. like maybe in the past year or so.. like maybe BO).
    And were women even allowed to vote?
    I have no idea.
    I just don’t believe in holding an entire people to blame for the actions of their governing group.

  38. soopermoose – you’re making a lot of sense.

  39. soopermouse,
    re your 4:51 comment,
    I believe we agree!

  40. Angela
    i think the Palestinians elections were monitored by a large numbers of international bodies and pronounced to be democratic

  41. Angelasmith:

    So if the election was bogus, where does that leave israel?

    Are they not allowed to defend themselves?

  42. Love you Afrocity
    I really love posters who try to change the subject on controversial message boards and try to make everybody get along.

  43. myiq,
    huh? I thought I already stated that I firmly belive that Israel has the right to defend itself.

  44. I agree Israel’s reaction has been harsh, but Simofish does make a point. If Hamas is the democratically elected government of the Palestinians then any act of violence it makes is an act of war not terrorism.

  45. But as for the Palestinian people being responsible for any action that members of Hammas take– I don’t agree with that premise.

    So who does Israel have a right to defend itself against?

  46. I didn’t vote for George Bush and I opposed the war in Iraq.

  47. Oops! I didn’t finish my comment:

    Would I therefore be exempt from retaliation by an Iraqi “freedom-fighter?”

  48. Israel has a right to defend itself against attacks.
    This is solely my opinion…. Israel had a justifiable right to destroy the rocket launching sites. Israel had a justifiable right to take its case to the UN security council and show that Hammas was perpetuating terrorist attacks on its people. The international community should have stepped in then.
    I can not list the tit for tat back and forth between Hammas and the Israeli government. I can no longer tell propaganda from fact from either side.
    But as I understand it, under the terms of the cease fire that was allowed to expire without renegotiation,
    Israel was to remove its blockade which it did not do.
    Thus more rocket fire from Hammas.
    I have no idea if this is true.
    But I do feel that this action by the Israeli military is
    not sound on many levels.
    And the toll on human life is terrible.

  49. Soopermouse
    Dont get offended nobody said Israel didnt have a right to exist. People are just trying to make sense of this mess.

  50. And the toll on human life is terrible

    Amen!

  51. Not done reading all the comments yet, but I definitely want to have dinner at simofish’s…

  52. I wish this was all over:)

  53. Afrocity,

    About a week ago there were a bunch of stories about which lucky DC area hairdresser would get to do Michelle’s hair. I almost wrote a post on it, but never got around to it.

    Yep, they’re going to try to force us to love her and use her as a role model. But they are emphasize fashion and motherhood, even though Michelle is only the second first lady with an advanced degree and independent career. Hillary was the first, but they attacked her for everything they could think of.

  54. myiq2xu Said:
    I didn’t vote for George Bush and I opposed the war in Iraq.
    Would I therefore be exempt from retaliation by an Iraqi “freedom-fighter?”

    Yup. You get a special shirt to wear and not only that, you don’t have to pay any taxes that go to funding the war.

  55. Sophie — come on over !! We have a 4ft Wolf Stove — we love to cook. Always trying out new dishes.

    I think food is the answer. Get Hamas, Israel & Palenstine people in a room, I will cook — liquor everyone up keep them fed and drunk for 3 days — they’ll come out friends.

  56. Well, if you want to read something from someone from the Palestinian side of this,
    NoQuarter has posted a “View From a Palestinian Leader.”
    I haven’t read it yet. Just found it. Going to go read it now.

  57. Does/did Palestine have/had the right to exist ?

  58. Interesting points, soopermouse. Who gains by keeping the Palestinians “derelict and in camps, in a state of poverty, anger and fear.”

  59. “Israel’s Right to Exist”

    By David Peterson at May 3, 2008

    Off the top of your head, can you tell me the last time you heard a top official in the Israeli or U.S. governments recognize Iran’s right to exist? How about Syria’s? The Sudan’s? Or for that matter Palestine’s — whether within its pre-1948 borders, its pre-1967 borders, or its mangled and entirely unsettled post-Madrid, post-Oslo, and post-Road Map boundaries?

    Yet, here is Israel’s Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni, as profiled last July by the New York Times’s Roger Cohen, explaining what “Her Jewish State” requires: “The West,” Cohen relayed, “needs to tell Hamas, the Islamist movement battling Fatah for control of a Palestinian movement now split between Gaza and the West Bank, that it must not only recognize Israel’s right to exist but also ‘the right of Israel to exist as a Jewish state, which is not that obvious anymore’.”

    http://www.zmag.org/blog/view/1624
    ‘the whole story at the link’

  60. Sophie:

    My point is how do you pick and choose?

    “That guy there didn’t vote for Hamas, so don’t blow up his house. That one over there, f*ck him!”

  61. simo: There is actually something to opposite sides sharing a meal…

    Thanks for the invite—where are you located?

  62. OK this is a good question.
    I think the international consensus is that Palestine has the right to be an independent state alongside Israel. I think putting Jerusalem in its entirety under international authority would probably be the best solution at this point.
    However, in order for that to happen, the Palestinian leaders need to
    1. acknowledge the right of Israel to exist
    2. renounce terrorism
    3. work towards actually making Palestine a functional state.

    Which it isn’t. They have the power, but all of the aid that goes to palestine lands in israel 3 days later in the form of bombs. the Palestinian leaders don’t give a crap about their own people, they want ISrael to feed their people while they’re busy bombing… Israel.

  63. Simo – I think we’re all coming to your house for dinner! 😆

    Hi, Afrocity – happy new year! Michelle just is not the model type – well, maybe she is but I haven’t decided what she’s a model for.

  64. Briana

    I have never heard nor seen anyone denying the right of any of those countries to exist. Thats a huge red herring.

  65. A pop quiz on the Middle East — answers may surprise you

    Published in The Orlando Sentinel, February 8, 1998
    Just so you can keep up with the perpetual crisis in the Middle East, I have a little quiz for you.

    Question: Which country in the Middle East has nuclear weapons? Answer: Israel.

    Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections? A: Israel.

    Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions? A: Israel.

    Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire? A: Israel.

    Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)? A: Israel.

    Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed? A: Israel.

    Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war? A: Israel.

    Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses? A: Israel.

    Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated? A: Israel.

    Q: In what country in the Middle East was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated? A: Israel.

    Q: In what country in the Middle East did the man who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister? A: Israel.

    Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship in international waters, killing 33 and wounding 177 American sailors? A: Israel.

    Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union? A: Israel.

    Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon? A: Israel.

    Q: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders? A: Israel.

    Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes? A: Israel.

    Q: What country is the United States threatening to bomb because “U.N. Security Council resolutions must be obeyed?” A: Iraq.

  66. Soopermouse is right – there are nations whose goverments are considered illegitimate, but the existence of the nation itself is not questioned.

    The right of the nation of Israel to even exist is disputed by its enemies.

  67. Briana:

    What is your point in reference to the current conflict?

  68. Has the incoming admin. made any statements about the current situation in the Middle East other than some vague “there can only be one President at a time”?

  69. Palestinian Election Monitoring, February 2006

    Nonviolent Peaceforce Middle East Report
    February 2006

    Thirty-five Nonviolent Peaceforce supporters including 20 men and 15 women from nine countries served as International Election Monitors in Palestine on January 25. The NP volunteers attended a two-day orientation led by the UN Development Program for all NGO participants and an additional training in violence prevention led by the Jerusalem Office of the American Friends Service Committee. The NP delegation was dispatched to eight areas in groups of three, each group accompanied by a Palestinian representative from NP Member Organization Grassroots International Protection for the Palestinian People (GIPP). About three hundred short and long-term election monitors from the National Democratic Institute/Carter Center, European Union, and Canada also participated

    http://www.nvpf.org/en/palelection2006

  70. Palestinian loss of land from 1946 – 2000

    http://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/read_msg.aspx?message_id=34545924

  71. Briana
    The UN is a fucking joke. Dont take their “resolutions” seriously.

  72. Briana:

    If Hamas is the legitimate goverment of the Palestinian people then they are responsible for any war-like acts committed by the Palestinians.

  73. Myiq2xu
    Yes their “militant faction” is their army.

  74. Briana
    how can Palestine lose land since 1946 ? All of the area known today as ISrael was called Palestine at the time. The Palestine pre 1946 and the Palestine of today are two utterly different entities and to act as if it was one and the same is intellectually dishonest.

  75. Angel:
    I’ve read that piece over at NQ. I found it a crap load of Hamas Propaganda!
    let us not forget that Hamas was sending Quasam rockets into Isreal. They have been lobbing these rockets for YEARS!

    Let us not forget that Hamas and the PLO have been responsible for some of the worst terrorist atrocities ever on CIVILIANS! So cry me a damn river when the same brutality is foisted on your doorstep!

    this is the pattern with Hamas and the PLO before them. Send bombers to attack Isreal. Kill innocents. Men, Women, Children. Young and old meant nothing to these terrorist animals! Attack civilians while they sleep in their homes. You know the drill.

    Now…Isreal responds…Planes drop bombs. tanks lob shells. Soldiers shoot civilians, men, women and children. They even attack those people in their homes.

    So…who is right and who is wrong?

    They both have blood on their hands. Neither is innocent when it comes to the heavy hand of retaliation is used.

    What I find disgusting though is that many forget that Isreal has been taking fire for years. What did we expect them to do? What would you do?

    true, the situation is complex. Isreal sealed off the Gaza strip from the world and that was brutal for the Palestinian population. But Hamas is no innocent here!

    I for one am tired of hearing all the finger pointing in the press. I am sick of hearing Hamas cry foul and I am so tired of all the Pro Isreali people say they were justified! Both Parties Are In The Wrong Here and it is the poor civilian that always pay the price!

  76. I’ll be back

    If y’all can’t be civil, your comments will be deleted when I get back.

    (you’ve been very good so far)

  77. I don’t hold the people of a country responsible for the actions of its governing body. I just don’t.
    I don’t hold Israelis responsible for the Israeli govts actions here and I don’t hold the Palestinians responsible for the actions of Hammas.
    I wish all those who wanted to engage in war would meet somewhere on an empty plain far removed from everyone else and have at it.

    At this point, I am pretty much shaking in my boots for the Palestinian people and for the Israeli people.

  78. Who broke the Cease Fire between Gaza & Israel ?

    5 November 2008 14.32 GMT

    Gaza truce broken as Israeli raid kills six Hamas gunmen

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

  79. RedDragon62,
    Yes, it is always the civilians who pay the price. I read that post and backtracked to the Washington Note and read the comments there. They had people on both sides who expressed their point of view pretty well… somewhere in the middle, my knees started shaking.

    This is horrific.

  80. If we ask whose interest is it to keep Israel and Palestine at war… my answer is that following the money always works.

    The US gives Israel a certain amount of aid a year. What is not known is the fact that Israel can only spend those money on weapons bought from certain American companies, and it is specified also just how much Israel should buy from each of these companies.

    So the aid to ISrael is just a massive cheque written to the US weapons industry by the US government.
    It is also worth remembering that from an international prespective, said companies cannot REALLY compete with other major weapons producers. Russia makes most of them better, cheaper and easier to import, and other countries ( France makes a lot better helicopters, etc) the same.
    So that’s one party interested in keeping the conflict going.

    Another party? Hamas itself
    Hamas recieves significant aid from various countries and charities. A lot of that money goes to the leaders’ bank accounts- see Yasser Arafat. Where do you think he gathered 300 million dollars?

  81. RedDragon
    I have a million dolars question
    if Gaza is so sealed from the world, where do those bombs come from? And how come there’s money for bombs and not for food?

  82. Briana
    Yes they killed the Hamas “gunmen” because they were smuggling weapons to be used against Israeli citizens.

  83. sorry on dish duty – I live in Oakland, CA — love to cook and bake — if you’re ever in the area — come on over

  84. Most of the Israelis that I know want peace and have no problem with the 2 state solution. IF the Palestinians want the same- territory arguments can be resolved if both parts truly want to negotiate- then it is up to them to organize themselves. If they keep giving power to those whose main interest is to continue the war, then they are responsibile for the war.

  85. There are two political parties in Gaza – Hamas , the democratically elected one. Fatah – the illegal one .

    Fatah was fromerly known as the PLO – Arafat .. now headed by Abbas . The PlO is known for it’s blatant corruption – that is why they lost the election .

  86. Is the uncertainty of the Obama administrations position on the Middle East adding fuel to the fire? After doing a search on Obama Israel, there isn’t much to be found. When I did a search on Clinton Israel 1992 there were many pages of Bill Clinton’s thoughts on the Middle East before he became President. The least that Obama could do is say that he is in contact with Bush and his national security team is working with the current admin.

  87. The Palestinians want the UN resolutions that were passed by all parties – including Israel, respected and abided by .

  88. something to consider Soopermouse isn’t it?

    I NEVER believe what I am hearing from the media concerning the POOR treatment Isreal is dishing out to the Hamas terrorist. Nor do I put too much stock into what the IDF says.
    As I have stated: Both have blood on their hands. But who is benefiting from these atrocities?

    Hamas can claim they are protecting Muslim honor and Isreal can proclaim they are protecting their right to exist.

    What I find hypocritical is how Hamas…after running up and punching Isreal in the eye….runs away and moans about the treatment it is receiving after inciting a fight.

    I still remember those people in the West Bank “jumping for joy as the Towers fell in New York!

    Call me insensitive but I have no sympathy for terrorist animals! Be it Government sponsored or home grown Homies!

  89. I’ve made my point clear that I think Israel needs to stop their military actions immediately. That’s my opinion.

    And I would think that even if there were no other players involved in this.

    But there are other players involved in this.

    Iran and Ahmanijedad I see of being much more of a threat to Israel than the Hammas in Gaza.

    If ever there was a person who deserved to be tarred and feathered and placed unside down in the ground, it is Ahmanijedad.

    I fear for Israelis because of what this crisis could spark.

    It seems quite often that the Palestinians are used for propaganda by people like Ahmanijedad. They don’t seem like they want to help the Palestinians, but are
    more than willing to use them as an excuse for their own acts of aggression.

    I thought that the international community (most of it, anyway) sided with Israel again Ahmanijedad’s remarks concerning it.

    Now the international community is calling for Israel to
    have a cease fire. And with Israel not doing this, the international community is in conflict with them.
    How will this also enable Ahmanijedad.

    It isn’t good, no matter how you look at it.

  90. There is no uncertainity about Obamas position on Israel .. Here is his speech to airpac .. same as bush.

    AIRPAC is the second most powerful lobby in the US .

    Transcript of remarks by Senator Barack Obama
    AIPAC Policy Forum (Chicago, Illinois)
    March 2, 2007

    http://obama.senate.gov/speech/070302-aipac_policy_fo/

    at one time – Obama was sympathetic to the Palestinians as Bill Clinton was .. but – as the primary and general wore on … he changed his tune .. due to the fact that Israel was not sure of him … and ‘he needed their votes’ … so – he changed his tune and came out charging …

  91. including the resolution that led to the creation of the state of Israel?

  92. angelasmith
    if Israel would stop now, that would be an incentive for Hamas to continue the bombings because they’d know they got away with it. That’s not an option

  93. Obama will be worthless in the I/P situation. And if Biden is allowed to open his mouth…

  94. soopermouse,
    I don’t know.
    When you are dealing with people who see themselves as martyrs for their cause, what does it matter what they think?
    At some point you have to say that they will put whatever spin they want to on it.
    If Israel could eradicate every Hammas terrorist in Gaza, would it solve the problem?
    Would that give Israel security from those who wish her harm?

  95. if israel wanted to eradicate each and every palestinian, they could have done so.
    A long time ago.
    Believe it or not, there is significant aid going into Gaza, AND significant aid. Otherwise, how do you think those people survive?Gaza produces virtually nothing. Who pays for the bombs?

    And here is the question that never gets answered

    what does Israel owe to the people who want to destroy it?

  96. A couple of nights ago the movie EXODUS wa on tv.
    At the end of the movie they are burying an arab man and a jewish girl together. They talk about in death both side share the land.
    Why can’t they share it in life?
    I am of Irish descent. The hate between Catholics and Protestant went on for years many died , no one won.
    It has to end. I am not smart enough to know how to end it but I pray that both sides find a way.

    WOMEN WITH INTELLIGENCE AND EXPERIENCE, MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  97. which might have gone unnoticed in the US press, but German chancellor Merkel clearly said that it is the fault of the Palestinians and one should not mix up cause and reaction.

  98. soopermouse – Israel has been in the process of eliminating Palestinians since 1948 .. . Israel has taken their land and to this day continues to build illegal settlements on their land .

    What does Palestine owe to the people who stole their land ?

    I am not counting the land that the UN , America, Britain, Russia gave to Israel .. That land is Israel’s – the rest of it isn’t and yet they have taken it and are continuing to take it even on this day ..

  99. No Angelasmith it won’t.

    Isreal will always have to defend itself against those that believe that it should not exist. These are blood feuds that are centuries old and rooted in religious madness. My God is better than your God syndrome.

    Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia and most of the Middle Eastern Community has been pulling the strings on this conflict for generations. If they were so concerned for those Palestinians that want peace, than why do they not step up and help them to broker a solution that is beneficial to all parties?

    They won’t!

    As long as the Mad men that are pulling the Hamas, Fatah, Hezbollah strings can keep these parties fighting, they can go to their populace and claim that They” are standing up to Isreali aggression.

    My prayers are with the unfortunate ones that really want peace and just want to live their lives unmolested by rocket and tank fire. Too bad they have put their faith in entities like Hamas!

  100. Germany is also asking for a cease fire. And asking that humanitarian aid be allowed into Gaza.

  101. I’m not going to argue about innocent Palestinians or Israelites — we all can take it for granted that such people exist — the “little people” who do not make any of the decisions but yet suffer the most as a result of their government/leaders’ decisions. It is a terrible situation for them. However, I am always going to be on the side of Israel in any dispute between the 2 — as pointed out above, Israel is in the unique and unfathomable (for most) position of being constantly at war since 1948 — to pretend now that they are the aggressors is nothing short of revisionist history, imo (albeit, as seen during the Obama campaign, revisionist history seems to have made a “comeback”). Additionally, Israel is our one and only true ally in the Middle East — like it or not, we need her to be strong to maintain the balance in the Middle East. Finally, we (the US) supported her in the beginning and it would be wrong morally for us to withdraw our support now.
    That basically sums up my stance on Israel — and I am unwavering in my position.

  102. Ruh-roh, that’s not good. Maybe Israel figures it will get it’s invasion in while it can, before there is a regime change here.
    OTOH, I’ll betcha the endtimers are going nutz with last minute plans. So much to do before the second coming.

  103. helenk

    both parts have to want to share it, otherwise it doesn’t work.

  104. Further bloodshed serves no purpose.
    It will not solve this conflict.
    I personally believe that there are Palestinians in Gaza who wish they could find those in Hammas who are firing the rockets and cram them down their throats.
    And what can these people do against armed terrorists? Nothing.
    The terrorists have to be seen as separate from the Palestinians. The Israeli civilians have to be seen as separate from the Israeli military. That is the starting point for peace.

  105. HA!

    “OTOH, I’ll betcha the endtimers are going nutz with last minute plans. So much to do before the second coming.”

    You took the words right out of my Apache Mouth River!
    Luv Ya!

  106. Briana
    it is a lot more complicated than that.
    It is rather common knowledge and well doccumented that many an arab leader requested that the palestinians leave their homes in 1948 so that the allied arab armies dispose of Israel. Reemmber that? That it was THEM who attacked Israel as soon as it was born?
    And some Jewish leaders did the same thing- they wanted the Palestinians out- obviously.
    But that does not change the fact that Israel was attacked as soon as it was born, and was at war ever since.

    As for Palestine… no offense, but tlast I checked nobody complained when it was occupied by Egypt until 1967.

  107. angelasmith
    if Palestinians want peace, they have to sort their issues out themselves. The onus is on them, and they do not appear to work towards that goal.

    Say what you want about Israel, their government works. Israel is thriving economically, and its continued existence is a testimony to the fact that it is being kept safe. One defeat is all it would take for ISrael to disappear.

  108. Israel is a great country. Yes, ideologically I side with Israel on all important issues, except how they are dealing with the Palestinians.
    I don’t think it would be a “defeat” in any way for Israel to stop this military incursion.
    I think it would speak well on her behalf.
    I believe the majority of people in both communities want an end to this seemingly never-ending situation.
    How they go about it, I don’t know.
    It would seem Egypt has taken itself out of any role as a future cease-fire broker.

  109. I’m surprised to see that message from AI since I’ve seen from several sources that Israel has allowed humanitarian aid, including medical help and supplies, into Gaza. I’ve even seen some statistics on the number of trucks.

  110. Israel has shown great restraint, essentially doing nothing as thousands of rockets rained down on southern Israel since disengagement from Gaza in 2005. Dozens of truckloads of humanitarian aid have been sent in. IDF phones the places about to be struck to warn the residents. Hamas uses the warnings to bring human shields into the targeted area.

    Terror groups that have been firing rockets and mortar shells at Israel include Hamas, al Aqsa Martyr’s Brigade, and Islamic Jihad. So-called innocent Palestinians who hide munitions in their homes are not innocent according to international law just as anyone harboring a fugitive is also guilty in the eyes of the law.

    BTW, Larry Johnson at No Quarter is on the wrong side of this issue. He and the commenters to his posts have gone around the bend. It’s a shame because we were on the right side of other issues and fought together.

    Any country has the right to do what Israel is doing to defend itself. I recommend these articles:

    An honourable warrior | The Australian
    http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24866318-7583,00.html

    Charles Krauthammer – Moral Clarity in Gaza – washingtonpost.com
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/01/AR2009010101780.html

  111. those trying to force michelle down our throats may find their readership falling off. what a pity! NOT!

    along with that humanitarian aid for gaza, which, is needed, how about some for the people in israel that are constantly be bombarded with rockets too. how about the un do something besides hold meetings. why not send observers between the two. of course the russians and chinese would not see fit to vote for it i think.

  112. Both parties are to blame for the Palestinian conflict. It isn’t like Israel didn’t partially provoke this by withholding funds from taxes they collected

    http://political-analysis.org/polit/id2.html

    Straight from the get go when Hamas was elected the US government and the Israeli government were antagonistic. Hamas is by no means an angel but anyone who didn’t expect this to escalate or wants to lay this at the feet of one party isn’t paying attention.

  113. This quote is from Redstate blog: Mansour adds about the same time McKinney was engaged in her publicity stunt, nearly 100 trucks entered Gaza to deliver aid to the Palestinian people. He points out the Israeli government is working with organizations like the United Nations Special Coordinator for the Middle East Peace Process and the Red Cross to ensure the entry of the required aid, especially food and medical equipment.

    I really don’t know a lot about Redstate. Like some others here, I started going to some conservative blogs after boycotting most liberal blogs this year. Although it is conservative, it seems well-written; I trust it more than I trust the idiocy and blatant lies at my former sites. Take everything with a grain of salt these days.

  114. Of course they were antagonistic! To have Hamas running Gaza was like having Bin Laden Governor of Texas!

    Those that voted for Hamas knew what to expect. Now, do I believe Israel protestations all of the time? No!

    But, shame on you if you think that Hamas has done no wrong and is innocent! As I said above…Hamas enjoys spitting in the eye of Israel and cries when the “Big Boy” strikes back!

  115. I just want to say what I think…. I just returned from work, and I haven’t read all the comments here… I am glad Israel is targetting Hamas, and from the news I have been reading, it sounds like Israel has done a really good job at going straight after their enemy. This is a much better situation than in Lebanon. Unfortunately, civilians always get caught in crossfire. I hate that civilians have to be innocent victims, but Hamas is to blame for firing rockets from civilian zones.

  116. We really can’t even agree that both sides are to blame?

  117. Yes Angel…we can!

    My beef is those that run to defend Hamas and condemn Israel. They both have blood on their hands!

  118. Reddragon

    Are you capable of reading?

    Which part of Hamas is not angelic did you not get

    I just want to make it clear Israel is not an angel either.

    Hamas ran and won duie to the fact that Fatah(who by the way we funneled money to) was steeped in corruption.

    Israel is holding 11,000 Palestinians. Hamas has one soldier. Equal? Not really. Then again Israel specializes in overkill.

    http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4&section=0&article=109201&d=22&m=4&y=2008

    Instead of going in and seizing a terrorist they will bulldoze a whole complex to “prove their point”. They also chose to thumb their nose at a cease fire. Let’s not play pretend here.

  119. angelasmith, on January 3rd, 2009 at 7:52 pm Said:

    We really can’t even agree that both sides are to blame?

    Actually, I can’t agree to that because I simply do not believe both sides are to blame here. Just because it is easy to say doesn’t make it true. I honestly believe that Israel is right in its actions & that Hamas is wrong. Hamas has been provoking this response from Israel for years now — to say Israel is at fault now is, as I pointed out above, revisionist history. I don’t care if it is PC to say so or not.

  120. Yes I can read CW!

    Of course, I am no apologist for Hamas so therefor I can not read?

    Typical!

  121. angienc2,
    you attach no blame to Israel for this escalating mess?
    No blame whatsoever? Everything Israel does is justified? Everything? How can you stand by such a statement?

  122. Furthermore, wtf purpose does it serve for the USA to take Palestine’s side — seriously, what is up with people trying to cast blame on Israel & defend Palestine? This country (the USA) helped created the independent state of Israel in 1948 & we cannot stop supporting Israel now morally, ethically or, to be cynical, selfishly. Regardless of what you may think about this present situation this country must think long term regarding Israel — any action, whatsoever, that would weaken Israel’s independent state status is the wrong action to take.

  123. Your comment was”but shame on you if you believe Hamas has done no wrong”

    Where exactly has ANYONE on this site claimed that Hamas has done no wrong?

    I dare you to find a single post that recuses Hamas for some responsibility for what is occuring.

    That said, Israel is also culpable. They have been attempting to starve a legitimately elected government out of existence and have refused to even attempt negotiating a truce because they do not like Hamas. Not exactly the height of maturity.

  124. angelasmith — I stand by that statement because I know the history of Israel — read my prior statement — Israel has been at war since 1948; she is our one ally in the Middle East; & we helped get her in this mess by supporting her right to exist in 1948 — we must stand with her. point.blank.peroid.

  125. If there is no common ground, there is no peace.
    If both sides can’t admit their role in the I/P crisis then there is no solution– not ever.
    It is not PC to admit common humanity. It is the basis of human rights. It is not PC to admit one’s part in
    a two party conflit.
    And it is not PC to care that thousands of people are going to be killed.
    And I’m going to have to check my bloodpressure if people cannot see Palestinians as having inherent worth, same as Israels.
    If we can’t do that, we’re pretty pathetic ourselves.

  126. http://www.flashpoints.info/countries-conflicts/Israel-Palestine-web/Israel-Palestine_briefing.html

    A history lesson that acknowledges that Israel occupies 40% more land then initially called for when Israel was established.

  127. And, as a matter of fact, I have no interest in discussing the issue with anyone who can actually defend Hamas and/or Palestine.

  128. CWaltz — again — who gives a flying f*ck that Israel occupied 40% more land then they were supposed to in 1948? Does that erase the fact that the USA supported her then and ever since? NO it does not. To try to use such trivia as a basis for the USA to withdraw its support now is utter bullshit.
    You are wrong on this issue & I’m done wasting my time.

  129. Hmmmm.

    This thread seems to be about full

  130. AngieNC

    We supported Saddam Hussein at one time too. Wanna defend him?

  131. You can call me wrong all you like, it doesn’t make YOU right.

  132. My comment was a generalization!

    Never once did I accuse anyone here of supporting Hamas or it’s terrorist activities nor do I fault anyone for supporting Israel and her response.

    you can go back through this thread and read what I wrote. Not once do I accuse this site nor it’s posters of hamas love!
    I simply aired my view on the matter. That is what we were asked was it not?

    And…I stand by my comment!

  133. I put quote marks there for a reason Reddragon. It was an EXACT QUOTE.

  134. Yes I know Cw.
    I am not running from what I wrote but as I stated…it was a generic term. Sorry if it offended you but that was not my purpose.

  135. Okay, this thread is CLOSED

  136. Cwaltz

    the difference is that Israel never advocated for killing all Palestinians. Did Israel do wrong? quite a bit. But it never tried nor advocated the complete annihilation of the palestinians, like Hamas and PLO have done from day one.

    “Israel is holding 11,000 Palestinians. Hamas has one soldier. Equal? Not really. Then again Israel specializes in overkill. ”

    So Israel values its citizens, as opposed to Hamas who’d sending children to die as terrorists. Your point?

    Plus- if you think somethign called arabnews has the slightest chance to be even remotely truthful about this, I have a bridge to sell you.

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