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Whither Roe?

Whither Roe?

For many months, we PUMAs heard that the main reason people were voting for Obama was the Supreme Court. NOW and NARAL endorsed him without qualifications, so Obama must be pro-choice, right? Hey, ladies, what’s yer problem? Barack Obama will preserve Roe v. Wade forever, won’t be too mean when you’re periodically down, and will even give you a kiss, sweetie!

Well, now that a majority of women believed this Supreme Court Roe-Hopenol and voted for Obama, let’s see how realistic that whole relentless campaign was, shall we?

For example, who among the four “liberal” justices is planning to retire? Justice Stevens seems to be the most likely, since he is already 88 years old.

Or, maybe not.

GAINESVILLE, Fla., Nov. 18 (UPI) — U.S. Supreme Court Justice John Paul Stevens, at 88, isn’t showing any signs he’s considering retiring from the bench, observers say.

Stevens, who leads the high court’s aging liberal wing, remains vigorous, still plays tennis, swims in the ocean and says he doesn’t consider the Supreme Court’s workload to be overly taxing, The Washington Post (NYSE:WPO) reported Tuesday.

A prime motivation for some voters in backing the campaign of U.S. President-elect Barack Obama was to ensure a Democratic president would be in a position to replace Stevens and fellow Justices Ruth Bader Ginsburg, 75, and David Souter, 69, with other liberals. But none of them, especially Stevens, has indicated any plans to retire soon, the newspaper said.

Huh. Stevens, Ginsburg and Souter are not planning to retire anytime soon. Ooooops!

Well, what about Justice Anthony Kennedy, who is not a liberal, but who is often a key swing vote for the liberal wing of the Court? Kennedy is 72, but despite repeated searches on Teh Google, I cannot find any stories that quote him about his intentions to retire before 2012. The most I’ve seen is a lot of wishful thinking from Obama supporters based on his age and health. Oooooops!

Okay, but what about Stevens standing before The Ultimate Judge in the next four years? It’s entirely possible that the 88-year-old (Gawd forbid) could pass away anytime. (Of course, so could any of the Justices, so I’m a bit dubious regarding the wisdom of basing one’s electoral strategy on when the Grim Reaper will strike). Assuming this sad event does in fact occur, who, oh who, will Barack Obama place in his stead?

If you read through the list linked in this Salon article (Salon being an extremely Obama-friendly press outlet), you will see a diverse mixture of men, women, moderates, liberals and nods to various ethnicities. Sounds great at first.

But do you notice anything about the summaries next to the candidates’ names? Not one of them mentions Roe v. Wade.


Are we now supposed to pretend that Obama has no responsibility to live up to the expectations of his female voters? Are we women, and the men who support us, supposed to forget that his campaign scared us for months about McCain and Palin and their extreme anti-choice views leading to the overturn of Roe v. Wade? Now, we don’t even merit a mention, as if Obama does not even have to consider Roe v. Wade in his possible judicial appointments?

I see the Obamedia is still covering for Obama and his complete lack of regard for womens’ issues. But that’s okay – we can do our own research on the Internets. Thanks, Al Gore!

Many of the names on Salon’s list strike me as purely speculative. The name I have heard over and over is Cass Sunstein, newly married to fellow Obama crony Samantha “Hillary is a monster” Power. Surely he must be fully committed to Roe v. Wade, given Obama’s ever-so-strong pro-choice credentials.

INTERVIEWER: The Supreme Court decision to legalize abortion has probably been one of the most controversial rulings from that era. Do you feel that, given how divisive the issue of abortion continues to be, Roe v. Wade was a mistake in any way?

SUNSTEIN: Roe v. Wade itself was probably a horrible moment for liberal politics and almost certainly created the Moral Majority. Roe simultaneously demobilized the pro-choice movement in politics and fired up the pro-life movement everywhere. There probably would’ve been an Equal Rights Amendment without [Roe v. Wade], less agitation with the process, and stronger legal commitments to sex equality in general. It’s absolutely true that if the court goes in the teeth of the public, it can hurt the cause that you’re trying to promote.

So, in Sunstein’s view, the Supreme Court’s Roe v. Wade decision gave rise to the Moral Majority and prevented the ERA from being ratified.

I’ll let that simmer for a while.

Sunstein goes on to give the Chief Justice Roberts-like disclaimer that Roe v. Wade is now settled law and shouldn’t be overturned. (Um, yay?) But in his ideal “minimalist” judicial world, this is how the Supreme Court should have proceeded:

INTERVIEWER: So let’s say the Roe v. Wade ruling was approached from a minimalist perspective, where would we be then regarding abortion rights?

SUNSTEIN: The court might’ve gradually built up to something pretty close to Roe v. Wade without anything like the intense public backlash that Roe itself yielded. We would’ve eventually gotten there through the slow process of case-by-case decisions. Another possibility is that the court would permit some restrictions on abortion rights — more restrictions than it now does — and we would see some variability across the states. Some states would basically ban abortion, with exceptions for rape and incest, but most states would allow abortion, probably quite freely. We wouldn’t have the intense political tangles we now do, and things would be much more congenial between pro-choice and pro-life people.

This is quite possibly the most ignorant bunch of crap I’ve ever heard.

He thinks that curtailing abortion rights and outright bans of abortion in some states would have been a better road for women. Moreover, such a restrictive and narrow ruling in Roe v. Wade would have helped prevent friction between the pro-life and pro-choice movements. Indeed, the ERA would have been passed faster if womens’ rights had only been abridged and completely taken away in some states! Had we followed this brilliant path, why, a virtual paradise of equality would have arisen, where fundamentalists who believe abortion is murder and radical feminists who believe they should have absolute control of their own bodies would skip hand-in-hand down green swards littered with roses and rainbows!

The tortured, Orwellian thought process demonstrated by Sunstein in this interview is a sure hallmark of a member of Obama’s inner circle.  It reminds me of Pippin’s assertion in the movie The Two Towers: “The closer we are to Isengard, the further we are from danger.”

But what really gets my goat here is Sunstein’s enormous sexism and elitism. His “ideal” scenario would have caused millions of poor and middle-class women enormous pain and suffering, and he admits it might never have granted women the same level of protection as Roe v. Wade; but he would have preferred it to the real ruling. And for what reason? It might have upset the Moral Majority a little less. There would have been more “unity.” At least, so he believes, without understanding why the Moral Majority is against abortion, or even considering the women who would have to live in those anti-abortion states he so casually dismissed. As for his claims about the ERA, they are beyond ludicrous, since a restrictive ruling by the Supreme Court would have led to the opponents of the ERA (and abortion) being STRENGTHENED, not weakened. They could just point to the fact that “even the Supreme Court thinks” women do not deserve to have control over their own bodies.

This man, unfortunately, is the PERFECT Obama Supreme Court nominee. He pretends to be so thoughtful and uninterested in the politics of division; to be solidly in the center of all issues; to practice judicial “minimalism” – a meaningless term similar to “hope and change” – but puts a fantastical vision of “unity” between pro-life and pro-choice believers above the reality of the suffering that vision would cause to women all over America.

I do not trust his throwaway assertion that he will regard Roe v. Wade as settled law. Clearly, he has put a lot more thought into why Roe v. Wade is wrong than why Roe v. Wade is right. Would he vote to overturn the decision? Who knows? But how would he rule on related issues, like birth control? Let’s just say his commitment to pro-choice women on reproductive issues seems, um, rather weak.

I feel very sorry for the women and men who voted for this fraud, thinking he would protect womens’ rights. It’s not their fault; they had a very tough choice to make this year. And besides, they were dosed with Roe-Hopenol.

145 Responses

  1. so I’m a bit dubious regarding the wisdom of basing one’s electoral strategy on when the Grim Reaper will strike

    I agree — but that was, in fact, a main argument by Obots as the reason NOT to vote McCain — he was going to die & the “scary lady parts” would be running things.

  2. What advice will be given?

  3. ah, but Appalachia runs through most of those “anti-abortion” states, so who cares about those hillbilly wimmen?

  4. Seriously AngieNC – Obama’s “people” (and I use the term loosely) are such elitist scum. They make my head explode!

  5. Stevens is actually pretty much a moderate — well liberal compared to Scalia, Thomas, Roberts & Alito — but he was appointed by Ford.
    His health is great though (knock on wood) — he plays tennis regularly — he comes from hardy stock.

  6. backtrack will appoint whoever his handlers tell him to appoint.
    Is there money in overturning roe vs wade? Then he will appoint a person who is against it.
    He is a bought and paid for president. Check what the people behind him want.
    He will use anyone anytime no matter what their beliefs.
    Do the right to lifers benefit his handlers or do the pro choice people benefit his handlers?
    Which ever benefits the people behind him is the way he will go.
    The most important thing to them is business as usual.
    Do not appoint someone who will help the consumer over the corporation.
    backtrack himself has no core beliefs, he told everyone ” I am a blank slate, see in me what you will”



  7. great arguments madamab! i think we can’t trust a thing he says frankly … look at all the flip flops just recently!

  8. SOD – My ideal scenario (okay, I know this is NOT gonna happen):

    1) The BC issue actually turns out to be relevant and Obama is disqualified from being Preznit.
    2) Joe Biden becomes President and takes HRC as his VP.
    3) Biden doesn’t run for re-election in 2012.
    4) HRC and Sarah run against each other in 2012. HRC beats the pants off her, but in a respectful way.
    5) HRC is President for the next eight years, and appoints Sarah to a cabinet position.
    6) Rainbows and butterflies!

  9. And Cass Sunstein, of course, spent most of his career at, drum roll please, the University of Chicago Law School. The CONSERVATIVE University of Chicago Law School. The “birthplace of the law and economics movement” University of Chicago Law School. The “chain link fence separating us from the black neighborhood” University of Chicago Law School. (This is actually literally true, at least back when I was an undergrad there.)

    Fun story I have heard about Cass Sunstein from a friend on the law professor circuit. Allegedly, back after his last wife threw him out because of his relationship with the lady who preceded Samantha Powers, he called his secretary to help him furnish his new apartment. Because he didn’t know how.

    But yeah, I’m sure he will be GREAT for women and the great unwashed masses.

  10. And I wish I had not just spent 10 minutes cruising through the U of C law faculty website. They seem to employ many, many boy-men who I clerked with. I, of course, am not qualified to teach law school (per my law professor friends) because I was not able to practice at a 2000 hour billables law firm, be a single mom, AND write law review articles all at the same time — and now that I have a little bit more time (because I scaled back the practice), 10 years out of law school is just too late to get into the market.

    I am feeling extraordinarily angry today.

  11. It has been VERY clear for a VERY long time to anyone who has been paying attention (i.e., not those morons who voted for B0 to “protect Roe”) that Roe isn’t going to be overturned — even Scalia is saying it is “settled law” for the love of God. Roe is staying “good law” while the rights Roe purports to give women are slowly chipped away via parental notification, “waiting periods,” spousal consent (I bet B0 would support THAT one), etc. — while the Dems say nothing, as they have done for the last fucking 20 years.

  12. angienc: you forgot the required ultrasound viewing. I would not be surprised if the f*cking Dems rolled over for a requirement that the woman name the fetus.

  13. My sister got a funky mammogram and she wants a ‘second opinion’ that it is ok to wait six months and see what it looks like. Sounds like a great six months, hey!! Her insurance is giving her problems, but we are going to require women to get ultrasounds in order to exercise their constitutionally protected right.

  14. Jadzia — exactly — For crying out loud alleged B0 refers to late-term abortions as “partial birth abortions” even though that is a made up term by the anti-choice crowd. Anyone who expects him to “stand up” for female autonomy is delusional. By the time B0’s term is over, the first thing a woman will hear upon entering an abortion clinic is “And why do you want to kill baby Emma?”

  15. btw: and the second question will be “And do you have the consent from your priest, husband and/or significant other?”

  16. angienc: And THAT is when the claws will come out. : )

    (Of course, mine are permanently extended these days. Just ask my smarmy boy-man opposing counsel! Whose ass I righteously kicked today.)

  17. my post at 7:06 should read “alleged Democrat B0”

  18. I had a physicist friend of mine say that there are millions of altrernate realities living side by side seperated by the thin viel of the cosmos….

    If this is true some where there is an alternate reality where Hillary won the Presidency and there was a fuzzybear who supported Obama that is very unhappy and upset…..

    I would gladly trade places with that fuzzybear making both of us happy…specially if in tht reality fuzzybear just hit the $21 million florida lottery…

    Oh I would want to take a few obamabots with me like Tommy Chri$topher and Chri$tina because I would love to see them suffer~!

    Anyone want to join me in piercing the viel and crossing over?

    where is RD our resident scientist when we need her?

  19. Jadzia — I love a righteous ass-kicking of a smarmy boy-man!!! LOL

  20. My claws are permanently out too. Plus, I am bitter.

  21. Not only was it righteous, it was richly deserved. The little twit refuses to speak to me, and at one point called me a secretary.

    Not that I think there is anything wrong with being a secretary (because I used to be one, and my sister and stepmother currently have that thankless job). But this guy? He does think there is something wrong with it.

    Topic? Thanks to the Napolitano appointment, Arizona’s new governor is a pro-life Republican who is expected to sign abortion restrictions that Napolitano had previously blocked: http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/269628.php. Thanks a lot, BO!

  22. sorry ladies Obama is a sorry excuse for a person and absolute pond scum bottom feeder!

  23. Hey, I made a comment to this… but I don’t see it on here.

  24. Karen — sometimes a comment will go straight to the filter for reasons only known to wordpress — did you have a link? posts with links are more prone to be victim to this phenomenon.

  25. Oh, Jadzia. Fuck me sideways.

    Who thinks Napolitano’s appointment is a payoff to the anti-abortion crowd?

  26. Even when we take a step toward the 30% solution, we take a step back altogether.

  27. Jadzia — oh fuck him — I agree there is nothing wrong with being a secretary, but he obviously thinks it is an insult. Intent is the thing that counts. I hope you intend to continue to kick his ass — next time you win a motion or something against him, tell him (once you are off the record) “Not bad for a secretary.” LOL

  28. yes, it contained a link! It was a link revealing that Obama is either 1) pro-abortion 2) highly manipulative or 3) both. What I was trying to say is that Conservatives condemn Obama for being pro-abortion while Liberals condemn Obama for being anti-abortion. Apparently, Obama is so manipulative and skilled at twisting how people perceive him that not even his opponents can agree upon the facts surrounding him…

  29. I don’t at all think that Napolitano’s appointment was a payoff to the anti-abortion crowd. What I do think is that the effect on abortion rights was not a consideration at all.

  30. angienc: Yeah, off the record is definitely better. I foolishly lost my temper with the guy on the record (via email) early in the case and it was a mistake. Sometimes it is better to retract the claws! (For example, when tempted to say obnoxious things to other posters on this board, because we’re all on the same side.)

  31. I don’t understand these effing people. The freaking Repubs love the fetus but couldn’t give a crap about the child or SCHIP would have passed. If having smaller government is so important then keep your f@#$ing laws off our bodies.

  32. spammy must be working overtime!

  33. ¨Karen, on December 4th, 2008 at 7:27 pm

    It is because he is bothways Barack. He is for and against most issues

  34. Puma–SF — yes, one of life’s great ironies — the anti-choice crowd loves unborn “babies” but wants nothing to do with the kid once it is born & are the first to scream for handing out the death penalty (except for Catholics, I do give them credit for being consistent on the “respect for all life” front).

  35. I agree with you Jadzia that the pro-choice/pro-life issue never affected Obama’s decision to appoint Napolitano.
    I think Obama’s decision to appoint Napolitano was founded largely on her inability to seal off her borders to illegal immigration. The propriety of illegal immigration is irrelevant. The fact is that Napolitano’s duty was to stave illegal immigration, and she fouled up the job she was assigned to do. Now, he placed her in charge of national security issues. I think Obama wants people who are either incompetent or are willing to please him and do as he says.

  36. Hey ladies and gentleman-didnt you know Obama sold the “rights to put their hands on our bodies” to the Republicans….

    How do you think he got elected?

  37. Any one here buying that Obama Holiday mug the Dem Party is Hawking? or is that a silly question….

    High Angie and madamab…should I send you yours giftraped?

  38. Yeah, I learned all about his fake full-of-lies websites to pander to the Conservatives. He pandered to everyone. I believe he is pro-abortion, however. He has contributed to Planned Parenthood.

  39. Jadzia – I don’t know. There was a reason the Repub evangelicals stayed home this year or voted Obama.

  40. fuzzy — if you send me an Obama mug you better duck, because it is going to come flying at your head!!!! LOL

  41. angienc: Boy, you got right but at least we have this to look forward to:


  42. Madamab — I think I might have a fuzzy head this afternoon and may need to be spoken … to … slowly. I thought you were telling me I was being ridiculous for implying that Napolitano was elevated to get a pro-life Repub in. But now I am thinking that you might have been saying the opposite.

    The language, it is not strong with me today. : )

  43. Actually, a number of evangelicals were frantic to get the word out that Obama was pro-abortion. Obama lied so convincingly to the congregations.

  44. Karen:

    Immigration is a federal issue, and the states don’t deal with border security.

  45. angienc: I was thinking of trying to rustle up an Obama mug for my bitter, bitter Serbian dad! Of course, it would only be funny if there wasn’t a donation to the DNC involved.

  46. madamab & Jadzia — I’m willing to believe anything about Obama at this point — the Napolitio appointment was a pander to the anti-choice crowd, he was born in Kenya, he is a martian whose mission is world domination– anything.

  47. wait wasnt the old saying about “greeks bearing gifts?” there was nothing about beware of giving greeks gifts?

    I just think that I still get these offers for a free gift if I give the DNC $$$ are so late night tele-evangelist…

    next I will be hearing about Michele and Barak lawn furniture and steak knife set….

  48. Immigration is both a federal and state issue in which the states and the feds should have been working together. Napolitano as governor should have been dealing with immigration. After all, her state is a border state.

  49. Day without a Gay! I love it!! I wish I was gay — I love playing hooky from work. Perhaps I will take that day off in solidarity with my GLBT brothers & sisters. Of course, the only “service” I will be involved in will be to catching up of sleep — I can sleep with the best of them — if sleeping was an Olympic sport I’d be a gold medalist.

  50. hey…how about one of those audacious rings?

  51. Hi madamab – just got your PUMA petition on Carolyn Maloney as a replacement to HRC in the Senate. We’re in her district too, and actually met her.
    Walked into her office in DC a few years ago to request passes to see the House/ Senate in session. She greeted us warmly as “real live constituents” and assigned one of her interns to give us a full 2+ hour tour. Very classy.

  52. These adoring gift offers are making me think about the coronation on January 20. Since D.C. will be bursting, where would it be a good time to travel?

  53. myiq — I don’t know anything about Napolitano but when they were discussing her outstanding qualifications for Sec. of Homeland Security on NPR last week they were talking about all her experience in AZ with immigration & securing her state’s borders.

  54. Fuzzy – I thought we were friends! How could inflict an Obama mug upon me?

    Jadzia – I wasn’t implying you were ridiculous in either case! I’m with Angie. The guy is a cipher.

    I don’t think he is pro-choice. Furthermore, I think Karen may be a plant, because no one is “pro-abortion.” That’s rightwing nonsense.

  55. madamab — I was thinking the same thing about Karen — I recoil from wingnut terms like “pro-abortion” but after misunderstanding catarina’s comment on SOD’s thread earlier (about women without children) I’m trying to reign myself in.

  56. Karen:

    States are not allowed to regulate immigration.

  57. honora — if you’re still here, tell your friend better safe than sorry. I had a similar experience and the mam site was the one who said I could wait. I went and got a 2nd opinion – the doc ordered a biopsy. Thank God all was well.

  58. I thought the minute men were in charge iof border security in AZ?

  59. My ex-wife called me “minute man”

  60. fuzzy — I think the minute men like to pretend they are in charge of border security in AZ.

  61. myiq2xu — they make pills for that now. 😉

  62. Betuscha – that is too cool! 🙂 I am glad you got the petition. I’m trying to spread it thru the PUMASphere!

  63. myiq — no offense, but I think your ex-wife was full of it. I bet you’re a “60 minute man” (at least).

  64. And don’t forget that these judges are soooo OLLLLD and nobody over 50 can lead, right?

  65. I am a moderate. I used the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” because they sound more neutral than “pro-choice” or “pro-life.”

  66. NY gov. outraged no women nominated for top judge


  67. LOL fuzzy!

  68. Karen: Isn’t it really pro-female privacy/anti-female privacy?

  69. I want to go live in madamab’s and fuzzy’s alternate/fantasy realities. But I need to be able to take my grandkids with me.

  70. No one knows what tomorrow will bring — I know a 40 year old man who just died in a boating accident — and I think it is bad luck to talk about people dying — but these are teh ages of all the Justices:

    John G. Roberts (Chief Justice)
    born 27 January 27, 1955 (age 53)

    John Paul Stevens
    born April 20, 1920 (age 88)

    Antonin Scalia
    born March 11, 1936 (age 72)

    Anthony Kennedy
    orn July 23, 1936 (age 72)

    David Souter
    born September 17, 1939 (age 69)

    Clarence Thomas
    born June 23, 1948 (age 60)

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg
    born March 15, 1933 (age 75)

    Stephen Breyer
    born August 15, 1938 (age 70)

    Samuel Alito
    born April 1, 1950 (age 58)

    Frankly — any of them can go at any time.

  71. angienc wrote “…her experience in AZ with immigration & securing her state’s borders,” which… well, it proves my point as to what Napolitano’s duties were, but the article I read a while back said she did a crap job of it. And the article I read came from a news blog I trust and read often. After the hideous bias and blatant misinformation present in the mainstream media, I trust this blog more than anything else.

    How critical has NPR been of Obama? Because “outstanding” does NOT sound like Napolitano at all…

  72. madamab I was only kidding I would never send you an Obama holiday mug….I donated it to the Obama library….

  73. Karen — NPR is Obot central — I actually stopped my monthly donation to them back in February & stopped listening to them at the same time — I thought it might be “safe” to listen to them again, which was the only reason I was listening that day — I quickly learned the error of my ways.

  74. Crap Thomas Alito and roberts have 20 more years on the bench? at least…what do these SCOTUS folks do to live so long?

  75. Abortion wasn’t an option for me but I support choice, therefore I’m pro-choice.

    I also support the choice of birth control, something many pro-lifers are against. And in this instance abortion isn’t even in the picture.

    I find the term pro-abortion offensive because it is not an accurate description of the complexity of the issue and the many people (the majority) who support a woman’s right to chose.

  76. fuzzy, with our luck they’ll live to be 150 years old.

  77. I believe every one is pro choice they are free to choose what side of the debate about who controls a womans body they support!

    Gosh isn’t freedom great….enjoy it while it lasts!

  78. gxm — my mother is pro-choice too — she choose to have her children — contrary to popular belief among the anti-Palin crowd, choosing to have the child is a valid choice too.

  79. yes it is the pro-chioce groups should taut they are for having childern too….

  80. madmab, I have been telling Obots this for months. I am now a racist for it. Thanks for this post. I wish I could have put it together this well before the primary. They just would not believe me. And here we are. NARAL KISS MY ASS!

  81. Angie – yup, of course they can.

    Should Obama nominate someone, I am quite sure it will not be a pro-freedom person. Oh, did I mention Sunstein is in favor of telecom immunity and the Unitary Executive theory? He doesn’t think Bush and Cheney should be prosecuted for their crimed.

  82. gxm17, I apologize for using those terms. I’ll go back to saying “pro-choice” and “pro-life”

  83. Fuzzy, didn’t madamab give up coffee? So an Obama coffee mug is doubly cruel.

  84. Yes! lol

  85. I have an exclusion of the unitary executive theory….to the point that any unitary executive should be excluded form consuming oxygen!

    I think Obama should be the first one to thes that theory

    Mr Obama please help save Mother Earth Conserve oxygen “stop Breathing”

  86. Briana … great link. Maybe Paterson will seriously consider Rep. Maloney after all.

  87. Oh – no one uses the term pro-abortion but right-wingers. I like the term “pro-freedom,” but that’s just me. Pro-abortion is inaccurate and offensive.

  88. should be test that theory….

  89. I’ve taken a page from Northwest Rain’s book & am teaching my Pepa to poop when I say “Obama.”

  90. Karen:


    The police cannot arrest illegal immigrants unless they commit a violation of state law.

  91. Thank you britgirls! Slowly weaning myself off…I’ve given up soda and have cut back, but not cut out, the coffee. I’m hanging on by my fingernails!


  92. “I used the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” because they sound more neutral than “pro-choice” or “pro-life.”

    This is a spoof, right?

  93. myiq2xu….last thread I put some of my conversation with an obat friend of mine you are spot on about how they operate….errr educate….errr blovate….ummm

    amazing I cannot believe it had the nerve to tell me not to call him an obama-bot

  94. Myiq – Yeah, um…not buying it.

  95. myiq2ux, Agree, that must be a spoof. During the 80’s I screamed my lungs out over this shit. But the MSM LOVED giving the NAME TO IT! but Regan was their guy then. Trust me, Obama will never get the Bill Clinton treatment.

  96. I honestly thought the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” were the most neutral because the terms “pro-choice” and “pro-life” were created to glorify each position and portray the position as morally better than the other, but when you get to the basics of the issue, the issue is all about whether abortion should be acceptable or unacceptable. Hence, my reasoning for viewing the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” as the most neutral.

  97. BTW – The teeny-weeinies at ButtBurger apparently want to see if they can get PUMA blogs to dlsseminate plausible but false rumors.

    Don’t believe everything you hear – make sure it comes from a credible source.

  98. Hi everyone, you’ve seen me on here before…I’m not a plant. I’m curious about why the terms “pro-abortion” and “anti-abortion” are offensive. Will someone kindly explain? Thanks.

  99. isnt it a sign of a weak debater if you answer a question with a question and dont follow it up with an answer? at least eventually?

  100. Dora:

    Nobody said they were offensive.

    Nice try

  101. OT
    I just talked to my daughter and my youngest granddaughter got a piece of mail today inviting her to a seminar at Princeton for future leaders.
    She is in tenth grade and an all A student.
    Her parents are going to look in to it .
    My grand daughter might grow to be part of the 30% solution.
    We will teach her young not to settle for 2nd place and don’t let them befuddle her with bs.



  102. myiq — “buttburger?”

  103. It seems to me that the most neutral, as well as accurate, terms would be “pro-choice” and “anti-choice,” since that is the real issue. Anti-choice people aren’t “pro-life” with the exception of lives that haven’t started yet. Pro-choice people aren’t necessarily “pro-abortion.” They just don’t want any woman to be forced to do something against her will.

  104. “During the 80’s…” Go figure. I only became politically aware 20 years after the 80s. I am certain that if I had been more aware back then, I would have not made this mistake. Unfortunately, I did not exist for the majority of the 80s.

  105. Really? People really need this explained?

    People are not pro-abortion. They are in favor of women controlling their own bodies. The issue includes birth control, education and abortion.

  106. SOD:

    I’m not using the site’s real name, they aren’t worthy of the attention or traffic

  107. BB — you’ve got mail

  108. Karen
    I agree with bostonboomer the terms pro-choice and anti-choice would be best.



  109. Thanks BB. Myiq–you’re right. No one said the word “offensive” but I thought that was the implication.

  110. what is buttburger…cannot possibley be kosher?

  111. Dora, I already did. See my post at 8:24pm.

  112. bb — I’m in total agreement re: anti-choice & pro-choice being the most accurate words for the debate.
    The ONLY people who are not “pro-life” are the suicides.

  113. I thought it was a fast food joint buddy’s ButtBurger…

    Like Shoney’s Big Boy

  114. Y’all chat with the thread-jacking tro!!s.

    I have better stuff to do.

  115. it’s inconsistent

  116. SOD — so true — except for the Catholics — I hand them that one — they are at least against the death penalty too.

  117. SOD – and of course, they supported the war too. Because killing people for Jesus is teh awesome.

  118. Thanks gxm17. I did read it the first time but I didn’t really understand your point about the complexity of the being pro-choice, but I get it now after reading it again and BB’s comment.
    Myiq–I don’t comment often but I’m not a tro11

  119. angienc, 8:27: I have been saying that for years. I swear it’s the MSM that chose the terms we use. I HATE them for the LIES and choosing the “narrative for the important stories”. Great example, Clinton = Drama. I will die , I know, before the Dowd, Rich, Broder, Hitchens, Sullivan, Dick Morris, Huffington, David Corn, WKJM, Sally Quinn, Daily ASS, and anybody trying to “break into the MSM ever tell the truth . Help me think of the other assholes, my head is exploding over the “pro abortion” comment.

  120. angie — I’m Catholic and believe me, even though Pope John Paul was against the death penalty, the vast majority of Catholics in the pews supported the death penalty.

  121. Daily ASS. LOL! (And I’m not even a DK exile)

  122. they always used the old “eye for an eye” passage to justify it.

  123. Thanks, gxm17, I needed to calm down.

  124. SOD — after I wrote that I realized I should have clarified that I was talking about the “official” position of the Church — I went to Catholic school — a lot of girls in my high school were members of the “pro-life” club who –what do you know! — had abortions by the time we graduated. {rolls eyes}

  125. gxm17, I was ready to tear my clothes off and run around the house over the “pro abortion” comment.

  126. Look alot of catholics also support birth control use too…oh and they dont believe in euthanasia either

    this is sometimes confused and my friend asked me what catholics have agains echanasia…wifh is an herbal remedy for immune system boosting also it is called the purple coneflower….in the color purple they were in miss ciely’s front yard…

    catholics have no problems with echanasia at all for the record~!

  127. Yes…cherry picked doctrine

  128. new thread … didn’t mean to but it i just came across it and it had to be said

  129. and it will be shortly pre-empted by RD and the confluence show … dont’ forget that coming up 🙂

  130. I thought the catholics had a problem with the poor Asian kids – you know, the youth in Asia

  131. pdgrey, when I took part in the pro-choice march in DC several years ago the one time I lost it was with the woman screaming at me who was holding up a sign with a tombstone and the date of her abortion. It was the same month/year that my daughter was born back in the 70s. I turned to her and started screaming: That’s when my daughter was born. You made your choice. I made my choice. You have no right to take away my choice. I was freakin’ livid. And the look on her face. Priceless.

    Choice means choosing to carry a pregnancy to term as much as choosing to terminate it. In China there are forced abortions. It is the flip side of the same coin as forced pregnancies.

  132. gxm — THANK YOU for saying that to that asshat — sincerely, I cannot thank you enough.

    That’s when my daughter was born. You made your choice. I made my choice. You have no right to take away my choice.

  133. re: Obama mugs> My lips will never come near Obama’s mug.

    re: media talking about Clinton drama> It’s a lot like a teenager who passes gas and then asks loudly: “Who farted?”

  134. I’m pro-abortion, the same way I’m pro-dental-implant — if you need it, you get it. And “anti-abortion” is way more accurate than the marketing term “pro-life.”

  135. gxm17, excatly, this is what I couldn’t understand during the election and the “screaming about Sara Palin and her daughter over their CHOICE. So called women’s rights leaders made me sick. It’s a woman’s right to control her own body, period.

  136. “Pro-life” and “pro-choice” are not good terms. Well, “pro-life” isn’t. One can be pro-life and pro-choice at the same time. Meaning you are against abortion, but you think individual women should have the right to decide what’s right for them. Calling someone pro-abortion suggests that this person is all gun-ho for abortions. “Everybody should have one!” Until this year I didn’t think such people existed, but they made themselves heard when Palin came on to the scene. Most people I know are not fans of abortion, but they are for a woman’s right to choose to have one.

  137. Birth control prevents conception while abortion is for after conception, so I do not see what is hypocritical for Catholics using birth control. Of course, I am certain some Catholics are more liberal than other Catholics. And the term “conception” I use refers to the when Christians view life as beginning; this is when the embryo attaches itself to the uterus; this is when women offically become pregnant. Birth control prevents the attachment from occurring in the first place.

  138. gmanedit, 9:37, where did you learn that term, “pro abortion” from the media?

  139. gmanddit, the true term is anti- abortion, not pro life. CHOICE IS CHOICE!

  140. DYB,9:41, excatly!

  141. DYB, I just saw your “who farted comment”,LOL!

  142. CLEAN UP…aisle 7….someone dropped some ‘eggs’

  143. Karen: Birth control encompasses contraception and abortion.

    pdgrey: Are you agreeing with me, disagreeing, or both? How about if I say I’m pro safe abortion?

  144. gmanedit, 10:01, I don’t have a problem with pro safe abortion, I have a problem with the way the media and some liberals let the pro abortion tag get started. We all should have stopped the media then. Now everbody is having trouble explaning the true meaning of choice.

  145. pdgrey: Back in the sixties and seventies, we chanted “Free abortion on demand!” The euphemism “choice” came along later, to counter the euphemism “pro-life.”

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