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Party to the Battle of Terrorism

“There but for fortune go you and I, you and I.”

To live in peace, to be with family and friends, to love, to laugh, to enjoy life — to have a life that helps us escape from the dreary misery of boring existence — to connect with something larger than ourselves, whether it be belief in God, religious worship, service to others, community that bonds us together — this is what most people want from life. To create, to express, to dream, to wish for something beautiful. To share with others, to not feel alone in this world — this is also what spiritual servants do to lift up their congregants.

What gives people the right to kill innocents? Not the right, what gives them the impetus? The hatred? The passion to justify extreme violence meant to send a message of fear to the world? After sixty years, in September, 2008, India and Pakistan took a big step toward peace in signing an accord about their trade routes called the Indus Waters Treaty. Then on the very same day of the Mumbai attacks, India and Pakistan signed a “joint anti-terrorism mechanism.” Is this why terrorists attacked Mumbai’s affluent and popular spots?

There was initial speculation that the murder of the young Rabbi Gavriel Holtzberg and his wife, Rivka, at the Chabad house in the Colaba district might have been a random act. It seemed obvious to me that once again Jews were a target, the center was deliberately attacked as a statement against Israel. This was confirmed by the captured terrorist, Kasab, who initially pleaded for his own life after being disturbed at the sight of his dead comrade in crime. That chickenshit plea disgusts me.

Israel’s foreign minister challenges the world in her statement, quoted here from the NY Times:

In a news conference broadcast Friday on Israeli radio, Tzipi Livni, Israel’s foreign minister said: “We know that the targets there that were sought out by the terrorists were Jewish and Israeli targets as well as targets that are perceived as Western targets — American and British.”

She added: “We need to understand that there’s a world here, our world, that has been attacked. And it doesn’t matter if it’s happened in India or somewhere else. We have here radical Islamic elements who do not accept either our existence or the values of the Western world. And only when incidents of this sort occur is it suddenly understood from conversations with leaders from around the entire world that we are actually party to the same battle. (bolding mine)

After planning and plotting, hijacking a boat, scouting out their targets in advance, donning police uniforms after murdering their wearers, killing whomever they pleased at the CST train station, then at the Oberion, the Taj Mahal Hotel, and local cafe, it is becoming clear that this was a well-planned attack. Perhaps it’s my love of the gentle, generous demeanor of the Indian people, the way my ears perceive the melodious tones of their accents, or their sensual love roots in the Khama Sutra, or the attack on the world’s largest Democracy. The hotel workers were repeatedly cited as heroes, placing themselves in the line of fire to save hotel guests. They were, afterall, only paid workers, but their dignity shone through.

The innocents the US kills in this battle of terrorism to counter those who killed us. The tribal warfare, the retaliations, enslavement of women, of children, even the anger and resentments, the self-otherness of those who cannot tolerate people different than themselves. The self-righteousness of people who fail to see beyond themselves. Frankly, I’m just sick of it.

Tenets of Buddhism posit that even anger is a form of violence. I’m even tired of complaining about politicians, businesses, governments, systems, and sects that screw others for their own gain. I’m just sick of fighting about anything. Perhaps, it’s just the holidays and families gathering together, attempting in their big or small ways to get along and put their screwed up history of interactions behind them. Perhaps, it’s me resolving to reclaim my dignity and honor that of others.

“I’m tired of fighting, tired of fighting, fighting for a lost cause.”

(Please note: my computer charger broke, I’m out of town and have to go out with my host, mom. I won’t be able to monitor comments, as I have little battery left until Wed. However, I felt like I had to post this, before my computer went down. Please talk amongst yourselves and be good to each other. I’ll read your comments when I return at around 8:30 ET. Thank you for reading! P.S. Oh, and remember to listen to the mood music, which is part of the post. XO, LBNYC)

263 Responses

  1. I hate fighting. You’re right. I love Indians too. Especially Khuma Sutra. They know how to make love. 🙂

  2. People do more harm in God’s name then they do good.
    He must look down and cry every day.
    The misuse of free will is the worst sin of all.

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  3. The workers of the Hotel deserve a big shout out, especially since without them, the numbers would be higher. Their knowledge and willingness to put it all on the line is what saved countless lives….

  4. Helenk:
    God weeps for all of Her suffering Children.
    Got to go, be back later tonight.

  5. I understand. Fighting is just enough. Even thinking about it is just enough. No one lives. Everyone’s a martyr.

    Great post. Lady Boomer.

    Being angry is violence enough but not for everyone.

  6. This is not fighting. This is sheer, unadulterated murder. No excuse or rationale attached. Just the thrill of killing under the guise of some twisted mindset that bears no degree of logic.

  7. littleisis-I agree that Left Behind is a silly missinterpretation of a bad possibly drug induced dream or vision by someone named John…the fact that the acting was bad only added to the humor!

    I have seen that the Mayan calenders current cycle ends in 2012 but there is some disagreement wether it is an end or just the end of the current cycle….

    I cant wait to get your autograph on your first best seller.

    I often turn into TBN to see the “Purple Haired Lady” it gives me a laugh when I am down and alone on late friday nights….

  8. “What gives people the right to kill innocents?”

    Lots of people do it in the name of Islam.

    Not religion.

    Islam.

  9. I agree with the statement by Tzipi Livni- it was an attack on “our world”-
    as when after 9/11, around the world, it was “we are all Americans”, so too now I would hope it is “we are all Indians”.
    I believe in peace, but sometimes fighting is necessary to acquire that.
    I only hope we do not have to battle for the rest of my life.

  10. fuzzybeargville, on December 1st, 2008 at 6:42 pm Said:

    littleisis-I agree that Left Behind is a silly missinterpretation of a bad possibly drug induced dream or vision by someone named John…the fact that the acting was bad only added to the humor!

    I have seen that the Mayan calenders current cycle ends in 2012 but there is some disagreement wether it is an end or just the end of the current cycle….

    I cant wait to get your autograph on your first best seller.

    I often turn into TBN to see the “Purple Haired Lady” it gives me a laugh when I am down and alone on late friday nights….

    LOL. Well, I was once told by one of my mother’s kooky non Denominational Prophets that I have the gift of Prophecy and that I will one day have a life filled with Joy, and that I will have a voice that speaks to Nations…
    Who knows? Could be true. I will enjoy telling Nations my story about my Gandaddy and the Mary Jane Brownies.

  11. Regency, you have no claim to Little Big Dawg and the Pantsuity Wife. We were all ready enjoying ourselves while you were writing your post.

  12. An eloquent and poignant post, Lady Boomer, and it expresses so well what many of us of various faiths feel.

  13. go to my blog to see how Terrorism actually goes against Islam:

    http://littleisis.blogspot.com

  14. The fact that millions of people who have no belief in a Creator Father Mother God/des still live good and aulturistic lives is much more admirable than those who do good deeds for some possible reward or avoidance of punishment in a possible afterlife.

    I amazes me that most acts of terrorism and war are fought in the name of God and not in the absence of belief in the highest power.

  15. littleisis, all the evidence in the world, i.e. Muslims blowing things up and murdering things, makes your claim sound rather ridiculous. Sorry, but it is a religion of terrorism, even if many individual Muslims are peaceful, loving people.

  16. The fact that some so called devout followers of the Allah or YHWH or God committed such unimaginable acts is surely testament against them but I still leave to God/des the punishment that she/he thinks they deserve.

    I am totally incapable of giving them their measure of justice…but if they were to do such acts in my name I know just what I would do to them….if she is looking for suggestions I do have a few…

  17. someday we will become like vulcans imersed in the kolinar gaining mastery over all our baser emotions…In this universe there are no one sided doors if hate goes out the window can love be far behind?

  18. Battlecat:

    Christians have killed more innocents in the name of the Prince of Peace than Muslims have killed in the name of Allah.

    The Hebrews weren’t exactly kind to the Caananites either.

  19. Where did you find that stat, myiq?

  20. Battlecat- true so true at times and the direct desendants of mohamed are silent the House of Saud as the hereditary keepers of the holy cities of Mecca and Medina have yet to call downthe judgement of the prophet on these evil men…

    I truely doubt the peacefulness of a religion that demands total unquestioning submission to the prophets interpretation of the will of Allah

  21. Thank you Myiq. You have saved me from saying something very rude to BattleCat.
    (struggles not to blow up)
    Battlecat, you should be careful because Bigotry and ignorance will get you nowhere.

  22. jvsp:

    Just a rough estimate adding up the number killed during the Crusades, various pogroms and inquisitions, and what happened to Native Americans and African slaves in the New World.

  23. in the words of the “Holy” Koran….”blessed be Allah praise his holy name who created all the sexual pairs and makes them holy”

    and yet these folks drop walls on people precieved to be LGBT…

    Remember Islam was spread across the middle east and north africa at the point of a sword…not a quill…

    Christians were only trying to liberate lands that were in their minds originally Christian…

  24. Fuzzy:

    Christianity requires total and complete subserviance to Yahweh and Jesus.

    Explain to me the difference.

    (rising anger)

  25. LI: I wrote that post over a week ago. You’ve overstayed your welcome in my bed, hon. Out with ya, young’n!

  26. the crusades happened 1000 years ago… during the dark ages…

  27. I am not saying there is any difference…Religion I am sure had a purpose in less “civilized” times in binding communities together and assisting in cooperation but I believe it may have out lived its purpose.

  28. Fuzzy:

    The Bible says the exact same thing about homosexuality. That they should be put to death, along with adulterers (including girls who are raped.)

    And no, the people in the Inquisition tortured and murdered and raped millions because they were women who thought for themselves or they were different.

    I am ashamed of you Fuzzy.

    I had better shut up now before I say something I regret.

  29. fuzzy:

    You do realize that Islam recognizes Jews and Christians as “people of the book” and does not require them to convert?

    Allah, Jehovah and Yaweh are all the same God.

  30. Be back later if I can guys. Got a conference call in 40 min. and a paper to write before tomorrow morning.

    Good night.

  31. Robert Spencer is a strong critic of Islam.
    But here he has a point:

    http://tinyurl.com/642m4y

  32. sorry Isis –

    I may be misunderstood….I am not advocating any monotheistic religion…as purer in the persuit of enlightenment than any other I always address the creative force as the “Creator Father-Mother God/des” remember…

    dont be mad at me!

  33. There is no statute of limitations on murder

  34. fuzzy
    you are right. Terrorists are wreaking havoc in the name of Islam right now. Mumbai happened last week, not centuries ago.
    This is happening right now.

  35. Islam and terrorism? While in Europe I was engaged to a woman who was raised in the M.East in one of the most “liberal” countries there; and after her graduation we would have moved to said country. It didn’t work out.

    Why? Try maintaining a relationship with someone who has been so damaged that with too much stress her body attacks itself and she ends up in hospital for a month. That is what being beaten your entire childhood with whatever is available and watching your mother endure the same does. And Allah forbid if mom doesn’t produce a son. And oh my, if you’re a woman and you aren’t married by age 25 there must be something truly wrong with you. Oh the shame, the shame for the family! Wasn’t there anybody with whom your father could arrange a marriage for you?

    And no, that isn’t some story from the far edges of society, some “peasant girl”, an anomaly. That’s the story of the daughter of distinguished Dr. And yes, that is only the beginning… We have other stories of other people we can tell. But I digress. Back to the main nightmare… if you should be raped, whatever you do, do NOT report it! Oh the shame!!! EVEN if you are in another country, because a police record is evidence of the shame, a shame that one doesn’t want their father or uncles to know. Hell, they will confiscate your passport for which you spent so much time persuading them to give you so you can study abroad. You wonder how that father, that uncle from way over thar would find out about how you shamed your family by getting raped in another country? Why via that community that is so close both at home and abroad. Things spread like wildfire.

    Yes, “moderate” Islam doesn’t breed terrorists? Well, they are cultivated in the home where they get “practice”.

  36. I believe that early christianity was not so dogmatic and actually challenged the believer to find his own path to the Savior child of God/des…I fact the Child of God/des said “In my Parents house there are many mansions if this were not so I would have told you…”

  37. The killing of innocents goes against all religions.
    Organized religion was started by man.
    Before Christianity there were other religions that did harm also.
    Religion is just a excuse for man to gain power over another be it by war in Gods name or segregation in God’s name.
    It is a power thing always
    I do believe in a higher being because to believe in man only with the damage people do kind of sucks

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM,AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  38. sorry fuzzy — many Crusaders who were “liberating land they believed were Christian” stopped on the way for repast in Constantinople (now called Instanbul & still the see of the Eastern Orthodox Church) saw the riches there & plundered it killing many, many Christians. Most of these “Crusaders” never even made it to Jerusalem.

    Many wrongs have been done by men of many different religions who have called their will “God’s will.”

  39. I agree Little Isis….with you the Bible is a book no matter how well inspired that contains all the misconceptions of those (for the most part) men who set it to scrolls…..it was probably the best a very disapointed Creator could get simple minds of that time to accept.

    There is strong evidence that a woman may have actually concieved the original gensis text….it was later changed…by men of course…

  40. Regency:

    My steamy romance with the Pantsuited one will not end simply because you caught us in your bed.
    Experience with Big Dawg and Little Big Dawg has taught her that it doesn’t matter the time or the place, it doesn’t matter what you’re heating up.
    Sheets, Car Windows, Chandeliers, Walls, Zoo Pens, Jungles, The White House Lawn, Hot Tubs, Trees, Playpens, Massage Chairs, lampposts, Campaign Buses, the War Room…
    anything will do.

  41. Angie I am in total agreement on the rape of constantinople….was a black mark on he western rite…It cannot be defended in any way…..

  42. littleisis, Said:

    (I won’t repeat it.)

    OK, LI, I don’t know why you’re waiting to write your steamy romance novels. I’m sure you could be financing your education and other projects right now!

  43. “Battlecat, you should be careful because Bigotry and ignorance will get you nowhere.”

    littleisis, you should heed your own words. Shall I read the Koran to you? Are you really that oblivious to what Muslims actually do in the world? Beheadings, bombings, beatings, hangings, war, terrorism, hijackings, forced marriages, female mutilation, racism, slavery, etc. It’s a horrible “religion.”

    I didn’t open fire in a hotel and deliberately target Westerners and Jews. Muslims did. And yet, you call me ignorant and defend them.

  44. Battlecat:

    Those Muslims also happen to be Pakistanis who are in a conflict with India over Kashmir.

    So was it religion or nationalism?

  45. of course the See of Rome was not totally innocent in the pillage.

    The excommunications that both the Eastern Rite and the Western Rite placed on each other were only removed under the Papacy of Paul the VI…..

    I prefer the eastern rites administration with their primacy refered to as the first among equals….no pretention in the infallability practiced by the western rite…

    In fact Papal infallibility is a modern construct Pope Leo the XII pomulgated the concept….in the late 19th century….I believe that Leo was in error here…only the creator is infallible if even she/he….

  46. I have to run, so you all have a nice evening!

    btw, I was sincere in asking about the stat, myiq. So, sorry if it came off wrong.

  47. “You do realize that Islam recognizes Jews and Christians as “people of the book” and does not require them to convert?”

    Sorry myiq, that’s not true.

    From Wikipedia:
    Christianity and Islam are major religions which emphasize the desirability of conversion. Buddhism has done so historically, and still witnesses modest levels of missionary activity. (Many Buddhists hold multiple religious identities.) Judaism allows in-conversion, but generally does not encourage it. A few sects of Hinduism promote the possibility of “becoming a Hindu” (or a Brahmin), but their stance does not meet with wide acceptance in Indian society.

    Futher along on the page:
    “A person is considered converted to Islam from the moment he or she sincerely makes this declaration of faith, called the shahadah. It is common belief among Muslims that everyone is Muslim at birth [derived from a single source and brought into being by the single entity] but sometimes chooses to take steps to revert back to their origins.”

    You can convert TO Islam, but if you try to convert FROM Islam:

    Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda‎) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.

    The four major Sunni and the one major Shia Madh’hab (schools of Islamic jurisprudence) agree that a sane adult male apostate must be executed.[1] They differ on the punishment for a female apostate – some schools calling for death and others for imprisonment. According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur’an,[2] although the jurist al-Shafi’i interpreted the Qu’ranic verse 2:217 as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]

  48. The United States is a “Christian” nation. Was our invasion of Iraq (and the killing of thousands of innocent Iraqis) a “crusade?”

  49. kjmontana:

    Where in that quote from wiki does it say Christians and Jews are required to convert?

  50. jvsp:

    I didn’t see anything wrong with what you asked.

  51. Battlecat: and when our “President-elect” goes guns blazing into Pakistan because the Pakistani government doesn’t turn over bin Laden what is that?

    People who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones & western civilization is in one hella of a glass house.

    Additionally, the same way that not all Jews are Zionists & not all Christians are fundamentalists bombing abortion clinics, not all Muslims are terrorists.

    Of course, none of this excuses the atrocities of the East, but pretending it is only the East isn’t very honest.

  52. Gee, myiq2xu. There’s always an excuse, isn’t there?

    Hamas wants to murder all the Jews and instill an Islamic state in its place. Nothing to do with Islam. Nothing to see here, move along. Just a Middle East conflict.

    Saudis hijack commercial aircraft into the WTC, and it’s because of American foreign policy, right?

    Muslims riot in France, and it has nothing to do with Islam. They’re just unemployed. Isn’t that what all unemployed people do?

    Muslims beat up gays in daylight in Amsterdam, and shucks, that just has nothing to do with this peaceful religion Islam. That’s just crime, right?

    Muslims blow up Buddha statues, and that’s not Islam, that’s just the Taliban.

    Somali pirates hijack ships, and that’s just piracy. Nothing to do with the fact that they are all Muslims.

    Muslims go rioting in Pakistan, Nigeria, France, or anywhere, really, but it has to do with poverty or Western racism, right? Can’t possibly have anything to do with Islam. It’s a religion of peace.

    Muslims behead monks in Thailand. Muslims attack other religions in the Philippines. Muslims blow things up in Chechnya and hold a Moscow theater hostage. Gee, that has nothing to do with Islam.

    All those tapes on YouTube reciting the Koran to justify murder against Jews, Crusaders, and other infidels. Nothing to do with Islam. It’s just a misinterpretation of the Koran, right?

    Islamic Revolution in Iran? Well, let’s blame American foreign policy.

    Do you really believe it’s not about Islam?

  53. fuzzy! I love how much you know about my Church history (I’m Greek Orthodox — the one true holy catholic (little “c”) Church — LOL)!! I knew there was a reason I loved you so!!! 🙂

  54. There are people (a lot of them) who are different from me because they believe in enslaving women. This is not a difference I “accept” or “tolerate.”

    All major religions, including Buddhism, are patriarchal and male supremacist. Islam happens to be the worst at present.

  55. myiq2xu: “Was our invasion of Iraq (and the killing of thousands of innocent Iraqis) a “crusade?”

    Official stated reasons of U.S. President W

    1) Iraq is/was part of the axis of evil – evil here I think is derived from a religious context.

    2) Weapons of mass destruction or let’s kill them before they kill us – preemptive self-defense?

    Anything else?

  56. Just because a Muslim does something doesn’t mean it has a religious basis. It may have been done for cultural, national or personal reasons outside of religion.

  57. It doesn’t say require, it says “emphasize the desirability of conversion”.

    But ask any Christian in Iraq right now how much ’emphasis’ they are under to convert to Islam. 60 Minutes did a whole segment on Iraqi Christians who survived the bombings of their churches and now have to hide their faith and live in fear every day. I’d say the ’emphasis’ is definitely there.

  58. BattleCat:

    I am completely aware of what Muslim extremists do in this world. But they are no more Muslims than a member of the KKK is a Christian, yet, the KKK has comitted terrible crimes in the name of Christianity.

    I’ll ready you a passage from Benazir Bhutto’s book, RECONCILIATION (btw: a moderate Muslim woman slayed by extremists of her own Faith)

    “During the Darkness of the Middle Ages in Northern Europe, when barbaric hordes raped and pillaged at will, Islam was building the great libraries and university’s of the world, developing the arts, sciences, and humanities. When women were viewed as inferior to members of the human family and treated as property belonging to men all over the globe, the Prophet Muhhamed accepted women as equal partners in society, in bussiness, and even in war.”

    During the Crusades, millions of Peace Abiding muslims were slaughtered by Christian Men claiming to do God’s Will, when they were really only doing their own.
    But is Christianity to blame for all of this senseless fighting and killing? No more than Islam is. Man is to blame. And you clearly know nothing if you believe that the Koran is any more war like and hawkish than the Bible.

    I am sorry to offend you, but you offended me. You should let go of your anger and try to learn a little bit about Islam and other Religions.

    PurpleFinn:

    Maybe so!!! Maybe that’s how I’ll be speaking to Nations. Through my steamy love scenes in the pages of my best selling books. Tee hee!!!

  59. “Christians have killed more innocents in the name of the Prince of Peace than Muslims have killed in the name of Allah.”

    Sorry guys but statements like this make me very upset. While I recognize the larger point that many people have killed in the name of religion, to say that Christians killed more than Muslims makes it seems as if someone is saying it’s OK. Like there is some debt to repay. Like Christians are more terrible.

    As I said, I’m guessing that was not your intent, but I’m upset after hearing so many dismissals of the very real reality we face- terrorism, piracy and Islamic extremism. Yes, Islam. To dismiss the religion is to miss the WHY. Religious fanaticism is a dangerous thing. Christianity has had its reckoning many times over. Many Chrisitians today just want to be left alone. That is the truth. But how did that change? Christians had to change.

    Islam is going through its own reckoning. Islam has to face the fact that people are using their religion to murder. But every time I turn around I get the same piecemeal, simplistic, over-used statements. Something along the lines of: “That’s not all Muslims”. Well no sh*t Sherlock. Except for some kooks, everyone knows that. It just seems to me that a large portion of the Muslim community refuses to acknowledge the reality. For what reason, I don’t know. And we refuse to acknowledge it because: “I don’t wanna seem racist.”

    But, THEY have to face it, THEY have to tell them, THEY have to stop it. We can try and put a happy face on it, we can try to reason it away, we can try to ignore it, and we can try to fight it; but in the end we can’t do anything until the majority of the Islam believers say “Enough!”

    Until then, the wars and fighting will continue.

  60. LI: You should write for Harlequin. You can y’know. My mom is trying to do it.You write it steamy-hot-hot.

    And I don’t care what you say, Hillary is loyal to me–mostly. Get your hands off her pantsuit before you get smudges on it.

  61. myiq2xu-the 6th century mindset in the Koran is not even marginnaly better than the mindset of the writers of both the old and new testaments…

    I am more and more convinced that it is the fact that those who cause the most trouble in Islam whether because they use it as a viel for nationalism or because they are ortodox true believers, have a problem with wanting to freeze the worldview in mindset of the original writers of the Koran text.

    they are trying to apply a 6th century text to a modern world that has discovered the exsistence of the subatomic and the limits of relativity….

  62. “It may have been done for cultural, national or personal reasons outside of religion.”

    But it isn’t. These acts are in the name of Islam. How many excuses can you make for these people before you see the connection?

    Please, do yourself a favor. Get a copy of the Koran (or find it online) and start reading. Don’t take my word for it. Go straight to the source.

  63. Battlecat — you have it exactly wrong — all those atrocities of which you speak are done by men PRETENDING they are doing it in the name of God. And all those atrocities have been done before in the name of the Christian God, the Roman gods, the Muslim God, etc. No one is EXCUSING those acts, we are saying don’t confuse the religion with the men who use it for their own will.

  64. Fuzzy and Angie:

    You are both right. Sorry I PMSed on you Fuzzy!!! I don’t know what it is, I just keep losing my temper today for no reason.

    I love you so, Fuzzy!!!

  65. littleisis, the Crusades were defensive. Muslims were trying to take over Europe – kinda like they are now.

  66. purplefinn:

    Iraq was not an Islamic Republic ruled by Mullahs, and it was pretty brutal in suppressing fundamentalists under Saddam.

  67. Battlecat:

    The Crusades WERE NOT defensive.

  68. angienc, you are partly right. You can find the Koran online. I suggest you read it.

  69. Battlecat: Do yourself a favor & recognize that your interpretation of the Koran without the proper context & study of it is as meaningless as the EVs who think they can “interpret” the Bible just because they can “read” it. Without the proper education in the subject it cannot be done.

  70. Regency, on December 1st, 2008 at 7:47 pm Said:

    LI: You should write for Harlequin. You can y’know. My mom is trying to do it.You write it steamy-hot-hot.

    And I don’t care what you say, Hillary is loyal to me–mostly. Get your hands off her pantsuit before you get smudges on it.

    I know I do!!! Truth is, I write it steamy hot for all the nations of the world. (according to those who would prophesy over my hot-hot-hot)

    And there are no smudges on the Pantsuits. The Pantsuit is taken off to quickly. The only person who ever smudges the Pantsuit is Little Big Dawg.

  71. My advice to you all is to go straight to the source. Find a copy of the Koran online and start reading.

    I’m not in any way suggesting all Muslims are terrorists. I’m saying that these acts of terrorism are Islamic.

  72. Well angienc, let’s see if your interpretation is much different from mine. Happy reading!

  73. myiq2xu, I don’t recall implying that Iraq was an Islamic Republic. Those reasons were what I thought I heard W say.

  74. BattleCat:

    That’s it.

    Are you on drugs???

    SLAUGHTERING MILLIONS OF INNOCENT PEOPLE IS “DEFENSIVE”???
    The crusade in the Holy Land was an INVASION. The Europeans were convinced that they owned it by some god given right.
    Sounds familiar, doesn’t it?
    Take off the Rose colored glasses.

    Taking over Europe… back then???
    You must be out of your…

    Shut up, Little Isis, shut up, shut up, shut up…

  75. Someone give me some Midol, please.

  76. lady boomer – Thanks for sharing. Recall the late Phil Ochs wrote, “There But for Fortune”, yet I like Joanie’s version best (especially the guitar picking).

  77. kjmontana:

    The fact that there are Iraqi Christians in the first place proves my point.

  78. myiq-if the last words on the lips of a person who practices Islam before he commits an act of terror are “Allah-a-aqakbar” or “God is Great” then I would have to say it is that persons religious beliefs that compel them to commit the acts.

    I would also say that religion needs to do some serious searching of its soul to see why they produce so many people who feel so compelled to violence.

    That goes for all religions…ALL (read my caps)….that compell people to violence against women children or men.

  79. myiq2xu, on December 1st, 2008 at 7:21 pm Said:
    There is no statute of limitations on murder

    Here, here, Myiq – dead is dead for a long time and I’m not sure how you justify killing innocent civilians – I can’t see anyone justifying that.

  80. Battlecat — get off your high horse — I’ve read the Koran and I’ve read the Bible — have you? Nothing in the Koran is anymore “war like” to the untrained & unlearned eye than:

    You will chase your enemies, and they shall fall by the sword before you. Five of you shall chase a hundred, and a hundred of you shall put ten thousand to flight; your enemies shall fall by the sword before you.” (Leviticus 26:3)

    “Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you.” (Luke 10:19)

    “No weapon formed against you shall prosper, and every tongue which rises against you in judgment you shall condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is from me,” says the Lord. (Isaiah 54:17)

    It is God who arms me with strength, and makes my way perfect. He makes my feet like the feet of deer, and sets me on high places. He teaches my hands to make war, so that my arms can bend a bow of bronze … I have pursued my enemies and overtaken them; neither did I turn back again till they were destroyed. I have wounded them, so that they were not able to rise; they have fallen under my feet. For You have armed me with strength for the battle; You have subdued under me those who rose up against me.” (Psalm 18:32,37)

    I could go on, but I think I’ve made my point.

  81. I’ve always loved Joan Baez singing.

  82. Fuzzy:

    Exactly. Organized Religion is realizing that it’s losing power in the world. That’s why they use women’s issues and gay rights issues as wedge points to promote their agendas.

  83. When Europeans invaded the New World and killed or subjugated the Native Americans they claimed they were doing God’s will.

    That was just their excuse.

  84. myqi2xu- the moorish invasion of Spain and the christian response to it was defencive in nature. Isabella and Ferdinan the warrior Queen and King in the name of their Catholic Faith Drove out the muslims from Spain….

    When the Prophet “bless his holy name” spread Islam outside of pagan Saudi Arabia into the eastern christian territories of Persia, Byzantium, Egypt, and North Africa they converted Christians to Islam by the Sword…regardless of the so called “tollerance” preached in the “Holy Koran”…

    6th century thinking….that was 400 years before the crusades

  85. fuzzy: I believe the individual terrorists themselves (the hoi poli, if you will) do believe they are doing these acts for “religious” reasons because they have been duped by their Mullahs, priests, rabbis into believing they are.

  86. littleisis, admittedly, I haven’t read any steamy romance novels. Are there many that include humor? politics?

    I read mystery novels, some of which include humor. A few include politics, but often subtly. You could create an interesting genre, or advance one.

  87. Thanks Angie. You have proved my point with those passages.
    I’m impressed that you’ve read both the Koran and the Bible. That’ what I’m doing right now.

  88. I don’t know, littleisis,

    I’m in some agreement with BattleCat. Arab Muslims did come in and take over sections of the former Byzantine empire then. Many Christians at the time saw it as an invasion. Which would qualify the crusades as a defensive action.

  89. xax:

    Then explain why they sacked Constantinople?

  90. Myiq2xu totally agree with you there…but I would have converted the Aztec’s too if I had seen them rip out the heart of a living human being and smash it into the mouth of a stone God while the poor sod sacrificed was still breathing~!

    Convert them I would have committed violence to stop that barbaric practice.

    Of course the Native Americans of the USA for the most part were peaceful people that live with in the balance of nature. the distruction of their culture was a great sin we must all carry on us.

    I will not defend the European treatment of the indigenous people of the new world~!

  91. Purplefinn:

    I think there are some. I graduated early from my High School, and it was my last day and I had to do a book report presentation for my Honors Engish Class on my last day of school. I felt like being naughty, so I did mine on a racy Romance Novel….
    My teacher gave me the meanest look, but she couldn’t say anything… still makes me laugh to think about it. Little Isis was a bad girl in High School!!!
    Anyway, I know that my steamy romance novels will be a new type. The ones these days get pretty repetitive, that’s why mine will be so good. They’ll be Novelties.

    So of course, there’ll be humor and politics and all sorts of stuff in my books.

  92. Fuzzy:

    The Moors invaded in the 8th Century. Ferdinand and Isabella came along over 700 years later.

  93. myiq2xu, on December 1st, 2008 at 8:09 pm Said:

    xax:

    Then explain why they sacked Constantinople?

    Exactly. No excuse.

  94. Little Isis — don’t be so impressed — I’ve got a (cough) few (cough) years on ya! LOL

  95. Regency – FYI – you have a couple of more comment/compliments on your 2008 diary (one from me, too).

    You youngsters (on this post) have a fun sense of humor, too!

  96. littleisis, Said:

    “Anyway, I know that my steamy romance novels will be a new type. The ones these days get pretty repetitive, that’s why mine will be so good. They’ll be Novelties.

    So of course, there’ll be humor and politics and all sorts of stuff in my books.”

    ***********

    OK, I’ll read my first steamy romance novel, when you write one. Whew, temperature rising just thinking about it..

  97. I’ll be back later gators!

  98. Myiq2xu-

    The Sack of Constantinople was an act of depravity but as I told Angie the Eastern and Wester Rite of the Catholic Church were at odds with each other in fact the Metropolitian of Constantinople and the Pope in Rome had excommunicated each other and their followers as heritics…

    In that sense the Western Churches Sacking of Constantinople was seen as an act of removing Heritics from the city and reestablishing the Roman Primacy over the Eastern Rite.

    It was incorrect and later condemed by Paul the VI as both Church leaders openly stated that the apostolic succession was never broken when the east and west split.

    The arguement of reconsiliation/reunification of the Anglican communion and The Roman Rite hinges on an interpretation by Pope Leo XIII on the fact that Apostolic succession was broken in the establishment of the C of E. I again believe this is incorrect. For an infallible Pope Leo made some huge eclesiastical blunders.

  99. Careful Purplefinn, don’t set off the smoke detectors!

    Steamy Romance Novels won’t be my only forte though. I’d also like to write fantasy young adult books and other things. I’d like to learn to be a very broad author.

    I am multi talented…
    Just like my Pantsuit wife and Little Big Dawg…

    Angie:

    That’s your real picture isn’t it? You’re very pretty. I don’t care how old you are 🙂

  100. To littleisis:

    “The crusade in the Holy Land was an INVASION.”

    Yes, of course. Because the Jewish (and later, Christian) Holy Land just decided one day to convert to Islam. Muslims never invaded and conquered the region by jihad, right? Everyone just woke up one day and was suddenly a Muslim. Lol.

    To angienc:

    I find it utterly baffling that after reading months of your posts decrying sexism and homophobia, you would equate the Koran to the Bible.

    1. The Bible passages you quote do not specify the enemy. The Koran passages single out Jews, Christians, and infidels – precisely the targets of modern-day Muslim terrorists.

    2. As vile as Christian fundamentalists are, Muslim fundamentalists are by far more deadly in the intensity, magnitude, and scope of their global atrocities.

    3. The Koran mandates a woman’s second-class status to a man. I’m not saying every Muslim agrees with that, but I’m saying that is what Islam is.

    To all:

    “Make war on them until idolatry is no more and Allah’s religion reigns supreme.” Koran 8:39

    “When the sacred months are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them, besiege them, and lie in ambush everywhere for them.” Koran 9:5

    “Fight unbelievers who are near to you.” Koran 9:123 (different translation: “Believers! Make war on the infidels who dwell around you. Let them find harshness in you.” or “Ye who believe! Murder those of the disbelievers….”)

    “When you meet the unbelievers, smite their necks, then when you have made wide slaughter among them, tie fast the bonds, then set them free, either by grace or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens.” Koran 47:4

    I can’t vouch for the translations, but it explains quite a lot about the behavior of many Muslims. (Obligatory disclaimer: of course not all Muslims are like that. Duh.)

  101. Myiq2xu-I agree but the battle on the Iberian Penninsula continued from the time of the moorish invasion in the 8th century until they were driven out by the Catillian Monarchy in the 16th century.

  102. later myiq!!!

  103. xax — many Muslims did take over Byzantine but trust me many so-called christians did to — it is what caused the schism in the catholic church, of which I am a member and in which history I am well versed.

  104. Notice that Muslims are at war with Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, and Ba’Hai, but none of these religions are at war with each other?

  105. Isabella and Ferdinan (note that she is always first) were great warrior monarchs and of course very staunch Catholics…the Inquision et al.

    Isabella was the stronger of the two and history acknowledges her superior intellect…Like Elizabeth of England after her she was a consumate statesperson.

  106. BattleCat:

    You are clearly blind to everything that Angie and other have been saying to you throughout this entire thread. Trying to convince you of anything other than your own opinion, I can see, is pointless.

  107. Here is an uplifting story from the Mumbai horror. The Indian nanny and another man were hiding in a closet during the attack on the Chabad house. At some point she heard the little kid calling her name. She said to the man that she had to go out there to get the kid — she had tucked him in bed earlier and thought he was asleep. The man who was with her called her crazy but out she went anyway to find the kid on the second floor near his parents’ bodies. She grabbed him and ran out and it is not known how she missed the attackers but she did and saved the kid. I have a lot to say about Mumbai and Pakistan and ISI and AQ and Lashkar. But in a nutshell what happened in Mumbai could happen anywhere until and unless the world community comes together and stops funding these groups and in some case sending aid to countries like Pakistan. Call them out for what they are — states sponsoring terrorism.

  108. Battlecat, on December 1st, 2008 at 8:24 pm Said:

    “I find it utterly baffling that after reading months of your posts decrying sexism and homophobia, you would equate the Koran to the Bible.”
    **********

    This statement makes me wonder what , if anything, you would equate the Bible to?

    And what, if anything, you would equate the Koran to?

    BTW, I’m getting quite an education here from everyone.

  109. Battlecat: yeah, the Christians have NEVER been at war with the Jews. LOL

    Gotta go for a while guys.

  110. Got to go for a little bit. Be back in a few.

  111. LI: you are so bad. Lil Big Dawg wears a bib! No dribbles.

  112. The conclusion we must arrive at is that homo sapiens will come up with all sorts of justification for, and glorification of, murder. Religion is just one of the many ruses. It’s sad that this is what we’ve used our big brains for. Seems our so-called intelligence doesn’t set us that far apart from any other pack animal. Actually, animals often seem to be much more civil.

  113. *Isis is back!!!*

    Regency, you only THINK Lil Big Dawg wears a bib.

    Our Pantsuit wife knows. She has many ruined pantsuits as a testament.
    There were just times when she couldn’t get them off fast enough.

  114. littleisis, you really don’t know what you’re talking about.

    angienc, you do, but you are missing my point.

    1. What context do we need to interpret the Koran? Just read the plain language. If we spent our lives studying it, like many Muslims in Madrassas do, then we would probably end up blowing ourselves up, just like they do. Islamic acts of terrorism are all the context we need.

    2. “yeah, the Christians have NEVER been at war with the Jews.” My exact words were “none of these religions are at war with each other,” the key word being “are.” We are talking about the present day. (Well, at least I am.)

    My point is simply that Islamic terrorism is carried out by devout Muslims in the name of Islam because that’s what the Koran and many of their religious leaders tell them to do. I am not saying all Muslims are fanatic, violent terrorists who blow things up. I am saying that those who do are Muslim terrorists committing these acts in the name of their religion. No qualifications, no comparative religious studies, no historical justifications, just an observation.

  115. gxm17, as Mark Twain said, “Man is the Only Animal that blushes. Or needs to.”

  116. BattleCat:

    You lost the argument. Get over it or leave, because you are really pissing me off.

  117. My point is simply that Islamic terrorism is carried out by devout Muslims in the name of Islam because that’s what the Koran and many of their religious leaders tell them to do. I am not saying all Muslims are fanatic, violent terrorists who blow things up. I am saying that those who do are Muslim terrorists committing these acts in the name of their religion. No qualifications, no comparative religious studies, no historical justifications, just an observation.

    That is the EXACT observation that was made by many people here about other people that have committed violent acts in the name of their religions. It has nothing to do with THE Religion. What is your problem?
    It. Is. Over.

  118. Little Isis — real quick — that is my real picture — it was taken October 2007 so I look the same.

  119. littleisis, when adults discuss things with each other, they understand that other people will have different opinions. They may disagree sharply with each other, but they do not tell each other to “leave.” I don’t care if I am pissing you off. Your anger is *your* problem.

    And your declaration that I have lost the argument does not make it so.

  120. “It has nothing to do with THE Religion.”

    Read the Koran. Read the Hamas Charter. Browse through some of the laws in Iran and Saudi Arabia. Learn something first, discuss it second.

    The article was about Mumbai. It was not about the Crusades. Yet some people will do backflips trying to excuse, justify, or whitewash Islamic terrorism. Point the finger at every other religion, or at religion in general. But this act of terrorism was purely Islamic.

  121. Muslims refuse to bury militants

    Indian Muslims say they do not want the gunmen killed by the security forces during the attacks in Mumbai to be buried in Muslim graveyards.

    Community leaders believe the militants cannot be called Muslims because they went against the teachings of Islam and killed innocent civilians.

    One leader said the militants had “defamed” the religion.

    snip
    “They are not Muslims as they have not followed our religion which teaches us to live in peace.

    “If the government does not respect our demands we will take up extreme steps. We do not want the bodies of people who have committed an act of terrorism to be buried in our cemeteries.

    “These terrorists are a black spot on our religion, we will very sternly protest the burial of these terrorists in our cemetery,” he said.

    Other Muslim groups have written to their local assembly representatives to say that if the authorities force the militants to be buried in a Muslim graveyard, they too will come out on the streets in protest.

    ———————————————————————
    India is believed to have the world’s largest Muslim population after Indonesia.

    Story from BBC NEWS:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/south_asia/7758651.stm

  122. BattleCat:

    Who says I’m an adult?
    And the things you are saying can be offensive to a lot of people. If there were any Muslims on this blog I’m sure they would be reacting the same way.

    I apologize for losing my temper, but you should think before you insult one of the fastest growing Religions on this planet. An opinion is fine, but saying nasty things is not nice.

    This entire post was about not fighting and then you started off by saying something that I found to be bigoted. I called you on it.

    If I said something offensive to you than you would not hesitate to do the same to me.

  123. Briana,

    I’m sure much of that is true, but it’s from the BBC, so they may have made the whole thing up. The BBC has a very strong, pro-Islam bias. Notice they do not have the word “Muslim” or “Islam” in most of their articles about Islamic terrorism. When they include those words, it’s usually just to say that Muslims are the victims – that they are the target of racism because people call them terrorists.

    Look for this in future BBC articles. They are practically scripted.

    Other things to watch in biased BBC articles:

    When “Palestinian” teenagers or children are killed, their ages are listed. Always. When Jews are killed, they were “settlers” or “soldiers.” Maybe they were only “lightly injured.” Their ages are never revealed.

    Look for this. It is always present in a BBC article about the Mideast conflict.

    Another BBC favorite: “sources say,” “according to sources,” “local sources.” Yeah, right. Who are these sources? Why are they not cited?

    The BBC makes up quite a lot of its far-left, anti-Israel, pro-Islam propaganda.

  124. Hitler – the good Christian & the good Germans …

    big killers .. very big killers .. !

  125. Thanks Brianna.

    I am not justifying any acts of violence. That is completely false and the fact that you would suggest that I was is the exact reason I reacted in anger. Attitudes like yours simply infuriate me. Get off of your high horse of Moral Superiority. You’re the one who started this entire argument:

    littleisis, all the evidence in the world, i.e. Muslims blowing things up and murdering things, makes your claim sound rather ridiculous. Sorry, but it is a religion of terrorism, even if many individual Muslims are peaceful, loving people.

    I would never have said anything to you if you hadn’t posted that gem.
    I know about the laws of Iran and Saudi Arabia. I know what the Koran says. I know that passages of the Koran are peaceful and other warlike. Just like the Bible and many other religious texts.
    I find it astounding that after Lady Bloomer’s post you would write such inflammatory, bigoted things.

  126. littleisis,

    “you should think before you insult one of the fastest growing Religions on this planet.”

    Why, because they might blow up or bomb something? So much for freedom of speech because violent Muslims don’t like to be called violent?

    Islam is also the fastest *shrinking* religion on the planet. More people leave Islam than any other religion. The net effect is that Islam is not the fastest growing religion at all. It’s actually Mormonism.

    Again, learn about something first, discuss it second.

    “If I said something offensive to you than you would not hesitate to do the same to me.”

    No, because I am not part of ‘Generation I’m offended.’

  127. Briana,

    Hitler was not a Christian. He may have been born one, but the Nazi movement was pagan in origin. They were not religious. They committed atrocities in the name of Naziism, racial purity, the Fuehrer, and the Vaterland. Not in the name of Christ or Christianity.

    What is this, college freshman night at the Confluence?!

  128. Battlecat, yup it’s Freshman night. Finals are coming and we need a break. Problem?

  129. You all seem to be arguing an argument with another argument that has no end. If everyone would just concede that the words contained in the Torah, Bible, Koran, or whatever book we choose to cite were all written by men living in their time we would more than likely conclude that the word of God has been invented to enthrall.

    All that has been written and sanctified has been done by human beings alone and is not the word of God handed down through tablets or plates.

    If this was used as a consideration than all these arguments would be moot. Killing is killing and cannot be justified for any reason let alone done in the name of “religion” To think otherwise is insanity.

  130. BattleCat:

    You disgust me.

  131. littleisis, you are attacking me, not what I said. Look up the phrase “ad hominem attack.”

    You have not actually disputed anything I’ve said. You’ve only called me names, told me I’m wrong, told me to leave, pointed the finger at “other religious texts,” and declared the debate over.

    I say Muslims blow things up, and you call me a bigot. My statement is factually correct in many parts of the world. You have not offered a single argument to the contrary.

    You know what’s bigoted? The Koran. Go read it.

  132. Thanks, Pat. I needed that.

  133. Littleisis – I don’t believe any killers of mankind are any religion .. they ALL use it ..

  134. Pat Johnson, on December 1st, 2008 at 9:18 pm Said:

    You all seem to be arguing an argument with another argument that has no end. If everyone would just concede that the words contained in the Torah, Bible, Koran, or whatever book we choose to cite were all written by men living in their time we would more than likely conclude that the word of God has been invented to enthrall.

    All that has been written and sanctified has been done by human beings alone and is not the word of God handed down through tablets or plates.

    If this was used as a consideration than all these arguments would be moot. Killing is killing and cannot be justified for any reason let alone done in the name of “religion” To think otherwise is insanity.

    Exactly, but BattleCat likes to say that it’s the religion of Islam alone that causes this, not the men who do it in Islam’s name.

    He/She has just said that the Nazi movement was “Pagan in nature” probably not realizing that there may be Pagans on this thread who might be very hurt by statements like these.

    He/She probably doesn’t realize that this “Generation Offended” person, is in fact, deeply offended and very upset

  135. Briana, on December 1st, 2008 at 8:58 pm Said:

    Muslims refuse to bury militants

    Indian Muslims say they do not want the gunmen killed by the security forces during the attacks in Mumbai to be buried in Muslim graveyards.
    —————–

    Another sign Indian Muslims have more courage and conviction than other Muslims around the world. I like it that they are protesting and rejecting these terrorists and making a statement with this. Good for them. All those bodies should be sent back to Pakistan where they came from.

  136. The Greeks, long before the time of Christ, wrote mythology to entertain. Many of those stories are carried over into the Christian religion. Virgin births being one of the many. Somebody was always avenging somebody or smiting his enemy. Far better to read Greek mythology before tackling the Bible, the Koran, or the Torah. Then look for similarities.

    My point being that no one has a lock on the word or God but those who cling to the beliefs of the middle ages will never budge from those beliefs. Each religion and their breakaway sects are convinced of their righteousness. Reasoning has no place.

  137. Thank you for a beautiful, heartfelt post, Lady Boomer. I’m tired of the fighting too, and tired of complaining about politicians. I just don’t know what the alternative is. If only there were a way for people to just live and let live in peace.

    John Kennedy wanted to make peace with the Russians, pull out of Vietnam, and end the cold war. And he was murdered for trying. Is there an answer? I don’t know.

  138. Battlecat:

    And you have repeatedly insulted my intelligence, starting from the beginning of this thread, simply because I said Islam is a Religion of Peace.

    It’s really cute that you said this was college freshman night and asked me to look up words. Adorable. Did you know that Regency is a college freshman? That I am a college Freshman?

    An opinion is one thing, but you threw the first insult.

  139. littleisis: The blood of the innocents can be shared by all religions through the ages. Right now Islam appears to be front and center. Wait another 100 years and someone else’s religion will take its place. History has a way of repeating itself.

  140. Thanks Pat. I shouldn’t have lost my temper. You are calming me down.

  141. Pat:
    I know. That’s what I’ve been trying to say. But I keep getting interrupted by people telling me that I’m wrong because

    “I say Muslims blow things up, and you call me a bigot. My statement is factually correct in many parts of the world. You have not offered a single argument to the contrary.”

  142. Battlecat, on December 1st, 2008 at 9:04 pm Said:

    Briana,

    I’m sure much of that is true, but it’s from the BBC, so they may have made the whole thing up. The BBC has a very strong, pro-Islam bias.
    ———————————-

    I read this same story in other Indian News papers. Why would you say they made it up? The article if you have read it, has no pro-Islam bias. It shows how the Indian Muslims are taking a stand against these terrorists and their horrible actions. Isn’t that a good thing, something to be appreciated? You don’t see that from other parts of the world.

  143. Briana- I have to call bullshit on Hitler being a Christian Hitler was a “Germanist” not a Christian and Mien Kampf was the bible of their religion they used pagan symbols also they sent may Lutheran and Catholic Priests to the Gas Chambers and Consentration Camps.

    THe Nazi Mythos was woven around the master race of “pure” pagan Germans who were polluted but the introducton of monotheistic worship by mongrel races.

    Sorry but they murdered not in the name of Religion but in the name of Protection Of the German People from mongrelization by so called Inferior Races.

    Jesus Had nothing to do with the rize of NAZISM.

  144. littleisis: The difference is that weapons of mass destruction are more readily available and for sale right on the internet. The press is a 24 hr feast with constant replays. The world is shrinking in a sense. If this same type of behavior had occurred a mere 100 yrs ago the time and distance involved would not be as marked as it is today.

    Every religion with their standard and rigid forms of behavior have added fuel to the fire over the last 2000 years. History will attest that most wars started as a result of religion. Think of England during the times of Henry the 8th as an example. Catholic vs Protestant. This carried over even into this century in Ireland where blowing each other up was an act of religious bigotry.

    Not one religion can claim purity. But right now we are witnessing a phenomenon based on technology and an adherence to something that has its roots in the middle ages.

  145. Fuzzy:

    Yes, and Hitler was, of course, not a Christain, but he used the crucifixion as justification for his anti-semetic mass murdering.

  146. Kids, kids, kids, okay, I’m back for a sec until who knows when I’ll get my MAC back. It’s about to die from low battery fever (waaa waaaaa.)

    I’m not a student of history, so many of you can school us in that, and this is all interesting conversation. Just remember that peace and heart were the primary points. It seems to me that any religion, or person, who is so convinced that their POV is so very important that they must kill or convert another in order to feel validated is at the root of the problem. The other point is that people have been doing it to each other forever, unfortunately. We think, we say, that we’ve evolved, but have we? Even animals, as someone pointed out, often treat each other better. However, many animals, like dogs, horses, animals in the wild are herd animals, have pecking orders, throw others out of the pack, and do what they have to in order to survive.

    Humans, perhaps, have the consciousness to do better, IF they can move beyond exerting their power over others. It’s all about power.

    How can humans cultivate a higher consciousness in order to rise above their fighting, their pettiness, their self-otherness in order to love others as themselves. Some cultures, peoples, religions, families, groups countries are willing to be less suspicious and give strangers the benefit of the doubt, because they see that we are all human. (Think of those who took in Jews to save them from the Nazis.) Others remain suspicious and skeptical of strangers. What was it in those Mumbai worker heroes’ makeup that allowed them, under pressure, to jump into the skin of their humanity and see potential victims as someone to save instead of saving themselves? Such integrity and heart is something to be admired and honored in a world where often people only look out for themselves.

    How can the world cultivate the best side of its inhabitants humanity? These are the questions and ideas I wonder about.

    Ahh, I’m melting. See you soon. XO, LBNYC

  147. I read this same story in other Indian News papers. Why would you say they made it up? The article if you have read it, has no pro-Islam bias. It shows how the Indian Muslims are taking a stand against these terrorists and their horrible actions. Isn’t that a good thing, something to be appreciated? You don’t see that from other parts of the world.

    BUT BRIANNA!!! Other Muslims have blown things up ELSEWHERE!!! So how can that be true???

    Besides, Islam is a religion for world dominance, because, they don’t believe exactly the same things WE do!!!

    Pat Johnson, on December 1st, 2008 at 9:39 pm Said:

    littleisis: The difference is that weapons of mass destruction are more readily available and for sale right on the internet. The press is a 24 hr feast with constant replays. The world is shrinking in a sense. If this same type of behavior had occurred a mere 100 yrs ago the time and distance involved would not be as marked as it is today.

    Every religion with their standard and rigid forms of behavior have added fuel to the fire over the last 2000 years. History will attest that most wars started as a result of religion. Think of England during the times of Henry the 8th as an example. Catholic vs Protestant. This carried over even into this century in Ireland where blowing each other up was an act of religious bigotry.

    Not one religion can claim purity. But right now we are witnessing a phenomenon based on technology and an adherence to something that has its roots in the middle ages.

    Exactly. No religion can claim purity. Because man cannot claim purity. Have you ever read A Thousand Splendid Suns??? It is one of my favorite books, by the guy who wrote the Kite Runner.

  148. Love you Lady Bloomer. 🙂

  149. 🙂 Rest easy, littleisis!

  150. Bush tells us how great he is:

    This week Bush provided his assessment of his legacy:

    “I came to Washington with a set of values, and I’m leaving with the same set of values. And I darn sure wasn’t going to sacrifice those values; that I was a president that had to make tough choices and was willing to make them,” he said.

    …The president told his sister he is proud of the “tough decisions” he made.

    “I surrounded myself with good people,” Bush said. “I carefully considered the advice of smart, capable people and made tough decisions.”

    Or as Stephen Colbert said so much better a few years ago:

    The greatest thing about this man is he’s steady. You know where he stands. He believes the same thing Wednesday that he believed on Monday, no matter what happened Tuesday. Events can change; this man’s beliefs never will.

    Indeed, befitting the simple mind of a simple man, Bush has always found it easy to make tough decisions.

  151. littlieisis: I read both books and wish he would write more. They were both exquisite.

    My opinion, and it is probably too simplified to consider, is that there are just too many of us in this world and for all the technology that allows us to cruise the net, we have very little, if any, understanding of one another as individuals. We are so wrapped up in ourselves and what passes for nationalism mixed with our own versions of religion, that we do not bother to make use of this technology to better understand what goes on beyond our own limited realm.

    An example right here at home is our basic ignorance of the American Indian experience. We need not travel far and wide to see that these members of our own society are suffering. Therefore, if we are unable or unwilling to acquaint ourselves with our own citizens, why should we be interested in someone whose life and culture resides thousands of miles away.

  152. Do we need a fund raiser to buy Lady Boomer a new charger for her laptop?

  153. Look the problem is People evolve religions tend to stagnate…..

    In the 7th century when islam was invented (Christianity was invented in the 1st and 2nd century and Judaism during the bronze age) on the arabian peninsula west of petra there was lawlwssness and a spiritual void the belief in that area was around water worship and gins…the spirits that dwelt in the wells.

    The Prophet “Bless his Holy name” was a merchant first and formost who had routes that ran from the byzantine empire to Mecca and Medina. His caravans were often attacked and he was robbed there was against all arguments “no honor among theives” so the area was ripe for a “spiritual revolution” some may say awakening.

    Mohammed had come in contact with the Jews and Christians of that era and saw how an organized religious structure could bring civilized behavior to an area of lawlwssness.

    Hence he developed a “business code” that cloaked what in the 6th century was most assuredly taken as civilized behavior in the viel of religion. Much of the Koran is devoted on the conduct of business and interaction between one merchant and another.

    It also shows great influence of the barter system. I fact the whole if you die a mayrtrs death you will be attended by 72 virgins in paradise….I am sure they bartered to 72 because the prophet wanted 100 and Allah said 50 they haggled to 72 because man has to meet Allah more than 1/2 way….

    This is the historical contect of the world the Koran was developed in.

    I could go into much more detail but then I would be like Hillary talking Healthcare….

  154. One good thing about these days:

    Bush is leaving. 🙂

  155. one way Ladyboomer (and a beautiful post by the way; I was so happy to see your byline) is to face the facts and not shrink from them.

    Muslim terrorists are killing innocents today EXPLICITLY in the name of their religion. It IS a religiously motivated terrorism that they practice and no amount of citations of past atrocities by other groups will change that.

    Islam as it is practiced today in every majority-muslim country is a scourge on civilization. It is a murderous, woman-enslaving, jew-killing, woman-killing scourge.

  156. littleisis, on December 1st, 2008 at 9:44 pm Said:

    I read this same story in other Indian News papers. Why would you say they made it up? The article if you have read it, has no pro-Islam bias. It shows how the Indian Muslims are taking a stand against these terrorists and their horrible actions. Isn’t that a good thing, something to be appreciated? You don’t see that from other parts of the world.

    BUT BRIANNA!!! Other Muslims have blown things up ELSEWHERE!!! So how can that be true???
    ————————————-

    Brianna didn’t write that. I was responding to battlecat on what he said to Brianna.

    Other Muslims blowing things up are a minority who are using religion for their own nefarious purposes. We right now have such a fine example in Indian Muslims who are saying that their religion is about peace and these so called Muslim terrorists don’t represent their religion. To me that is wonderful that they are taking a stand against these terrorists and calling them out on it. If the rest of the Muslims in the world are as defiant in rejecting these terror groups and stand up for their religion, world would be a better place.

  157. Here Hitler uses the Bible and his Christianity in order to attack the Jews and uphold his anti-Semitism:

    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people.” –

    Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

    Don’t anyone get confused here .. I don’t think any of these men were spiritual or Christian or any religion – in any way .. HOWEVER .. they used religion to speak to a ‘segment’ of populations … Bush did it … . my gosh – the man got elected TWICE .. !!! ..

    some more on Hitler .. by the way “Hitler was a Christian ” …

    How the Nazi Regime converted the people….

    a) In the 1920s, Hitler’s German Workers’ Party (pre Nazi term) adopted a “Programme” with twenty-five points (the Nazi version of a constitution). In point twenty-four, their intent clearly demonstrates, from the very beginning, their stand in favor of a “positive” Christianity: “We demand liberty for all religious denominations in the State, so far as they are not a danger to it and do not militate against the morality and moral sense of the German race. The Party, as such, stands for positive Christianity, but does not bind itself in the matter of creed to any particular confession…”

    b) The Nazi regime started a youth movement which preached its agenda to impressionable children. Hitler backed up the notion that all people need faith and religious education: “By helping to raise man above the level of bestial vegetation, faith contributes in reality to the securing and safeguarding of his existence. Take away from present-day mankind its education-based, religious- dogmatic principles– or, practically speaking, ethical-moral principles– by abolishing this religious education, but without replacing it by an equivalent, and the result will be a grave shock to the foundations of their existence.” – Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

    c) The Nazi regime began to control schools insisting that Christianity was taught.

    d) The Nazi regime included anti-Semitic Christian writings in textbooks and they were not removed from Christian doctrines until 1961.

    e) The Nazi regime having full blown power over the people began to forcibly convert all its military.

    f) The Nazi regime forced the German soldiers to wear religious symbols such as the swastika and they placed religious sayings on military gear. An example here is this German army belt buckle (I believe my Opa had one) which reads “Gott Mit Uns”. For those of you who do not speak German it is translated as “God With Us”.

    g) The German troops were often forced to get sprinkled with holy water and listen to a sermon by a Catholic priest before going out on a maneuver.

    h) The Nazis created a secret service called the “SS Reich” that would act as spies on the dealings of other citizens. If anyone was suspected of heresy (Going not only against the Socialist party but CHURCH DOCTRINE) they would be prosecuted.

    this is just a little … he used religion just like they all do … for his own evil purposes …

  158. Pat:

    I agree with you. It is so easy to judge others but sometimes we judge without stepping in their shoes or living with their family or their cultures or their life experiences. There are so many amazing, beautiful places in this world, it’s hard to believe that so many people suffer simply because we fail to see what we have in common before we obsess over our differences.

    Fuzzy:
    LOL, exactly. But my Pantsuit Wife taking Healthcare is so nice because she gets all wonky and it’s so cute 🙂 *insert proud Big Dawg Face*

    Did you know that the Prophet “bless his holy name” married a wealthy, intelligent business woman that was seven years older than him?

    Yet another handsome feminist holy man. 🙂

  159. Briana: Please also include that the Catholic Church itself was not sympathetic to the Jews since for centuries they blamed them for the death of Christ. When Hitler embarked on his evil mission he did so knowing that the Church itself turned a blind eye to his deeds and in many instances collaborated with him in carrying out his aims.

    Unfortunately, the Church and Hitler had a common goal and this is not to say that there were clergy who opposed this at the time. However, that being said, it worked. Bloody hands.

  160. Brianna didn’t write that. I was responding to battlecat on what he said to Brianna.

    Other Muslims blowing things up are a minority who are using religion for their own nefarious purposes. We right now have such a fine example in Indian Muslims who are saying that their religion is about peace and these so called Muslim terrorists don’t represent their religion. To me that is wonderful that they are taking a stand against these terrorists and calling them out on it. If the rest of the Muslims in the world are as defiant in rejecting these terror groups and stand up for their religion, world would be a better place.

    That was my bad. I was being sarcastic. Of course, you’re right. I agree with you.

  161. Hey .. let’s all have a ‘kumbaya ‘ moment and sing .. “Onward Christian Soldiers” …

    http://www.hymnsite.com/lyrics/umh575.sht

    🙂

  162. PJ. … exactly.

  163. Briana: Please also include that the Catholic Church itself was not sympathetic to the Jews since for centuries they blamed them for the death of Christ. When Hitler embarked on his evil mission he did so knowing that the Church itself turned a blind eye to his deeds and in many instances collaborated with him in carrying out his aims.

    Unfortunately, the Church and Hitler had a common goal and this is not to say that there were clergy who opposed this at the time. However, that being said, it worked. Bloody hands.

    And no amount of “citations of past atrocities by other groups will change that”

    I’m just saying. At least you didn’t insult the intelligence of people who disagree with you on here.

  164. Let it also be said that when the Catholic Church faced its own moral crisis a few years ago by blindly looking the other way at the national pedophilia that was being practiced, I, as a Catholic, did not, could not, would not, defend their criminality.

    Though it was the hierarchy who chose to condone these actions, many of us left in disgust. The rift has yet to be fully healed but when the Church to this day comes out on their moral high horse by refusing to offer communion to congregants who are pro choice the middle ages again rears its ugly head.

  165. PJ and Brianna:

    Sage words.

  166. PJ:

    I was baptized Catholic as a baby but my mom left the church, so, technically, I am unpracticing. *shrugs*

    I know that a lot of people left the Catholic Church after that incident and couldn’t come back.
    It must have been very painful. I’m sorry.

  167. PJ – The Catholic Church has a lot to answer for when it comes to the Jews. The Inquisition comes to mind, as well as the Holocaust. The Vatican only recently apologized for its role in the Holocaust, by the way.

  168. The above is an actual account of the world the Prophet “bless his holy name” lived in he was a creature of his enviroment and the aincients believed that Man (not woman) was created in the image of God…so mohammed continued the pathos of this in his religion. Women were nothing more than chattel.

    The whole concept of a man “knowing” a woman was about power not about love and respect. This concept was man was created in the image of God. Man (the image of God)knowing a woman is nothing more than taking that which is his property that not made in gods image.

    In this contect Leviticus( the holiness text) takes on whole different tone…A man laying with mankind as with womankind is about man trying to exert his controll of God as his property. Because man is made in the image of God this is unacceptable and to be avoided.

    This is further demonstrated in the fact that when Moshe asks God his name God answers I AM who AM…its the Hebrew way of saying mind your own business…I am not telling you my name because then you will feel you can exert control over me and I am not that kind of god.

    just some more context on how we got here from there

  169. help in modration….

  170. Little Isis .. the truly sad thing about all of this is that these “terrorists” have killed more of their fellow Muslims than anyone else ..

    I’m not talking about since the ‘beginning’ of time …I don’t know the stats on that … ..

    But God/Goddess knows – there has been NO lack of killing but there sure has been a lack of understanding ..

    I’m sorry if anyone thought I was insulting someones intelligence .. The only thing I took offence at was the exact same thing that You did … ..

  171. littleisis; You have nothing to apologize for. You have passion and you plainly put that into your arguments. You are who you are and you feel what you feel. A strong approach in making your case is admirable. Never back down but always try to make sense of the other side.

    Passion is the best way to approach life. It leaves one open to all kinds of thinking. Hold onto it.

  172. Watching Gretawire – poll asks if Former President Bill Clinton would be a good choice to fill out his wife’s term as Senator. (go vote if you care)

    Heard more from a WaPo reporter on the concessions Bill had to make with the Clinton Foundation to insure Hillary would be made SOS. Sounds like he bent over backwards to make sure it happened. As if Hillary didn’t do enough for Obama?

    Anyone hear what will happen to Hillary’s Campaign debt? Has Obama offered to pay down any more of that?

  173. madamab: Exactly. I read a history of the run up to Hitler and all the European nations hated the Jews for centuries so what he did had a basis to start with. The book, and I will have to pull it off my shelf, also went on to say that most Christians in those countries had little if any contact with the Jewish population so their hatred was pathological.

    Hitler did not just emerge for his time, it was waiting all along for him.

    The Catholic Church played a huge roll in perpetuating that hatred sorry to say.

  174. wait did someone call Mohammed a femminist?

    puh-leeze~!

  175. Brianna , I wasn’t talking about you, I was talking about BattleCat. She/He kept telling me to look up words and said it was “College Freshman Night” at the Confluence because I told her the exact same things you did.
    He/She was insulting my intelligence, not you. I appreciate that you stuck up for me. *hugs* BattleCat was saying some things that offended me very much.

    Oh PJ!!! Thanks for that, and thanks for coming to my rescue. You have passion too.

    *hugs*

  176. look it wasnt the just the catholic church….anti-semitism was present where ever christianity was also Hitler believed that Jesus was the bastard son of a Roman Soldier and Mary a Temple Virgin…not the sone of the most High!

  177. It took longer than it usually does, but finally, we can blame it all on the Catholics.

  178. fuzzy:

    I said that. I was kidding. He was a feminist for his time anyway. So was Jesus. They both took great bounds for the rights of women that don’t seem spectacular today, but back then, were out there and scandolous.

  179. Hitler did not just emerge for his time, it was waiting all along for him.

    Sound familiar?

  180. honora: The discussion involved all religions who have not always practiced what they preached. Islam was being singled out as the worst and the discussion went on to point out that all religions over the past 2000 years were implicit in much the same way.

    The argument rested on the fact that most of these religions participated in some form of a “holy war” throughout the ages. As a Catholic, I cited my own.

  181. Madamab .. .. Did Pope John – acknowledge and apologize publicly for that … ?????

    I would like to see our government do that .. Apologize to the Native Americans/ African Americans/Mexicans etc.. – and currently to the Iraqis …

  182. Briana, on December 1st, 2008 at 10:23 pm Said:

    Madamab .. .. Did Pope John – acknowledge and apologize publicly for that … ?????

    I would like to see our government do that .. Apologize to the Native Americans/ African Americans/Mexicans etc.. – and currently to the Iraqis …

    I would too.

  183. look I will tell you honestly I believe in the early times people worshiped, gave honor to is probably a better way to put it, the things that sustained them, those thing; the earth, the rain, the seasons, the light of the sun and moon, the forrests, the rivers and lakes etc had a life force in them the early people believed.

    They believed this life force manifested itself in spirits and these spirits manifested themselves needed to be honored buy festival and offerings….it wasa simple way to worship and it accepted the great cycle of life…

    how we got from there to here is an amazing and often sad tale.

  184. OT .. Miami activist illegally moves people into foreclosed homes — `liberating’ properties, he says

    By TAMARA LUSH , Associated Press

    December 1, 2008

    MIAMI – Max Rameau delivers his sales pitch like a pro. “All tile floor!” he says during a recent showing. “And the living room, wow! It has great blinds.”

    But in nearly every other respect, he is unlike any real estate agent you’ve ever met. He is unshaven, drives a beat-up car and wears grungy cut-off sweat pants. He also breaks into the homes he shows. And his clients don’t have a dime for a down payment.

    Rameau is an activist who has been executing a bailout plan of his own around Miami’s empty streets: He is helping homeless people illegally move into foreclosed homes.

    “We’re matching homeless people with people-less homes,” he said with a grin.

    Rameau and a group of like-minded advocates formed Take Back the Land, which also helps the new “tenants” with secondhand furniture, cleaning supplies and yard upkeep. So far, he has moved six families into foreclosed homes and has nine on a waiting list.

    http://www.startribune.com/nation/35325924.html

  185. The Indians knew there was something out there larger then themselves. Their practice was to take from the land only what they needed to survive. Until we came along.

  186. Fuzzy,

    one word:

    Patriarchy

  187. Bush has only 50 more days in office and I cannot think of one nice thing to say about him. Thank God I am not asked to be present at a testimonial or I would be mute.

  188. we must remember that the catholic church was also he greatest repository of knowledge through the dark ages if not for the great libraries of the church much would have been lost during the dark ages….

    For all its faults the old Church has done a few good things…after the roman empire fell.

  189. Pat — I can say something nice.

  190. SOD: You are a better person than I.

  191. It is sad that we cannot all become directors of our own conscience in matters of faith….each allowing for their own fallibility….one should be able to read from the Bible the Koran and the Gita moving from one to the other with barely a breath between them not caring which tome is being quoted as long as the Creator Mother-Father God/des is being worship by those who choose to do so respecting those who have chosen a diferent path….

    Violence and Intollerance are the greatest sins in such a society….

  192. I’m back and since I can’t let go of an argument here we go:

    My understanding of Byzantine was that is was a Roman civilization. In fact it didn’t become Christian until Constantine coverted. So you can argue about the politics of it all-Roman conquered land and such, but this was not started by the Christians. The Roman hated the Christians.

    My only point in that matter was that given Byzantine held one of the holiest cities to all major faiths, to the Christians it was an outright attack on their religion and the birth place of their holy land. Agree or disagree that’s your choice.

  193. Pat J I have something nice to say about Bush….

    “Nothing so became him of his Office as his leaving of it”

    to Paraphrase The Bard

  194. Right on Michael! But if one refuses to look the transgressor in the eye than one is no better than the transgression.

  195. We will know there is a hell and we are in it when we turn on the TV and all channels show the Tweety and KO show 24/7/365 with an occasional guest appearance by Rachel Maddow Jack Cafferty and Donna Brazile!

  196. New Open Thread!!!! Come on up!

  197. SOD:

    I don’t know which one is worse.

    Bush or Obama.

  198. Me too Pat J.. me too …….

    “Bush has only 50 more days in office and I cannot think of one nice thing to say about him. Thank God I am not asked to be present at a testimonial or I would be mute.” …… Pat Johnson

    ooops … wait – I think I can say “He is doing the ‘transition’ well,, but .. …. but then I hear he is passing laws to kill the wild Mustangs .. .. so fk him ..!!!

  199. sorry but I just wanted to remind everyone of the possibility…..

    I would say it to his face Pat J and offer him a glass of grape koolaide!

  200. I’d like to see the world apologize to women for thousands of years of subjugation and abuse.

    But honestly I think public apologies for past crimes are meaningless in the face of current atrocities.

  201. myiq2xu, on December 1st, 2008 at 7:59 pm Said:
    kjmontana:

    “The fact that there are Iraqi Christians in the first place proves my point.”

    And the fact that some are dying by trying to STAY Christian proves mine.

  202. BOSTON BOOMER HAS A NEW THREAD UP!!!!

  203. Pat Johnson said: “those who cling to the beliefs of the middle ages will never budge from those beliefs.” Go over to Asian Times and read “Spengler,” who has a fascinating series on the inability of Islam to emerge from the middle ages. The holy books of Judaism and Christianity were written by men, and so are subject to scholarly criticism, but the Koran supposedly was divinely dictated to Mohammed and is therefore inerrant; criticism is heresy. (Unfortunately, it looks as if Mohammed never existed: http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/JK18Aa01.html.)

    Islam is a political movement of conquest, incompatible with modernity. Moderns ask questions and aren’t satisfied with “STFU.”

  204. gmanedit: And if you are at all familiar with Mormonism, Joseph Smith was given the golden plates by the angel Moroni. Each religion shares a common theme. Saviors arriving from space, heaven, somewhere. Just like the stories of Greek mythology.

  205. Battlecat:

    Your statements about Aisha (Muhammed’s favorite wife) reveal your ignorance and bigotry.

    You should stop now.

  206. Pat Johnson: “Each religion shares a common theme.” Sure — they all steal from their predecessors.

    I can understand people believing in the longstanding religions they were brought up in, but I despair at Mormonism and Scientology, whose founding myths were created before our eyes.

  207. myiq: Where should we go to learn about Aisha? Is what this guy (http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/ayesha.htm) says not reliable? Or this guy (http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm)?

    I don’t take any of these religions seriously as history, but if this is what the holy documents say . . .

  208. I wouldn’t rely on an bigoted anti-Muslim site for accurate information.

    That’s like asking the KKK for information on the Civil Rights Movement

  209. Confluence Readers:

    I have set up a short-term website to post a prayer, comment or condolence to those affected by the terror attacks in Mumbai. Please drop by and leave a note, prayer, or condolence.

    http://prayersformumbai.wordpress.com/

    It is just my small effort to make this world a little bit better.

    Topher
    Formerly: BlueDawgDemocrat

  210. Here’s some stuff from wiki for starters:

    From the 20th century onwards, a common point of of Muhammad has been his marriage to Aisha, who might have been six or seven at the time. [17] American historian Denise Spellberg states that “these specific references to the bride’s age reinforce A’isha’s pre-menarcheal status and, implicitly, her virginity.”[17] She might have stayed in her parents’ home until she was nine and then her marriage with Muhammad was consummated.[17][18]

    However, some Muslim scholars and historians, such as Mohammed Ali in his book “The Prophet of Islam”, through historical calculations based on known events at the time believe that Aisha was at least 10 when she was berothed and at least 14-15 when the marriage was consumated. [19]

    The age of Aisha is cited by some critics who denounce Muhammad for having sexual relations with her. American Baptist pastor Jerry Vines called him a “demon-possessed pedophile”.[20] Jewish leaders and mainstream Protestant groups joined Muslims in denouncing the comments made by Vines. Abraham Foxman from the Anti-Defamation League described Vines’ comments as “deplorable”, adding that they were “not surprising coming from the leadership of the Southern Baptist Convention, which has a track record of denigrating and delegitimizing other religions.”[20]

    Colin Turner, a professor of Persian language and Islamic history, states that Muhammad’s marriage, in its historical context, would not have been considered the least improper. Such marriages between an older man and a young girl were customary among Bedouins. Turner further writes that Arabs in the 7th century tended to reach adulthood at an earlier age.[21]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad#Aisha

  211. Battlecat, since you can’t seem to talk in a respectful way:

    Once again, learn about something first. Discuss it second.

    and

    Just a thought for the regulars on this board:…

    You are banned.

  212. Thank-you KB

  213. I’m sorry I was so slow, MyIQ — I just caught up on this thread or I would have stopped it hours ago.

  214. Katiebird:

    Thanks for that. i just came back and read what he/she said to me.
    I was stunned. Again, thank you.

  215. littleisis, I think I’ve cleaned those comments out too. I’m really, really sorry that I wasn’t watching this thread.

  216. To the now banned, If my ex saw all that you have written regarding Islam, she would bitterly agree with much of it as she was raised in Islam, in the Middle East and still living there: exceedingly bright, educated, attractive, and yet still not quite more than half a “person”.
    I have spent years wrestling with what I experienced. I have loved one of it’s victims, one of its many victims. There is no description. They have no voice except one: ours, and what do we say?
    All that can be mustered in its defense is to first raise that precious “jack and jill” argument of 6 year olds: “since jack hit me yesterday, I can hit him now!” That is, we never investigate the Islam of TODAY, because the focus of the discussion always turns to comparing Christianity to Islam, tacitly approving of what constitutes modern Islam by yet again resurrecting all the sins of Christianity past, present, and future. Sins of the Father arguments go nowhere.
    And second, accuse the “intolerant” of ignorance, i.e. elitism.
    If I have expressed myself poorly so as to have given anyone reason to feel insulted, I do apologize.

  217. It’s okay KatieBird. It’s fine. Just thank you. 🙂

  218. jvsp:

    She was raised in a Middle East culture too. Was it the religion or the culture? Or just a seriously f*cked-up family?

    When someone declares that Islam is a violent religion, I respond by pointing out the violence associated with Christianity. Was Christian violence part of the religion or an aberration?

  219. jvsp — your experience was sad, but I still believe it is wrong to extrapolate one person’s experience as the “norm” for an entire religion.

    Also, anyone who believes Islam has cornered the market on “religious violence” didn’t go to Catholic school.

  220. myiq –

    I would very much like to believe that my experience with her family was just an anomaly, but unfortunately it wasn’t. I would like to believe also that Islam is not deserving of the onus, but it is. At the very epicenter of Islam they have women in bags, women stoned, women killed for having been raped, etc. The culture is to some extent an expression of the religion. The two are inextricably entangled (theocracies at their “best”) Placing blame on the family, the culture, still leads one back to the religion. Where is all of their outrage?

    angie -it wasn’t sad; it was a nightmare! LOL! (kind of…)

  221. are any of you aware of the fact that India has been opressing discriminated against and murdering Muslims within its borders for decades? That maybe all your complains come from a lifetime position of unbelievable privilege from the POV of the rest of the world?

    Terrorist is a relative term. When they win, we calll them freedom fighters. Or… Founding Fathers.

  222. A major point missed in the above article is the group that the captured terrorist said he was a member of. It is a group formed by the Pakistani government to stir up trouble in Kashmir.

    The troubling part is, of course, how much the Pakistani government had to do with this terrorist attack.

  223. jvsp, on December 2nd, 2008 at 1:37 am Said: At the very epicenter of Islam they have women in bags, women stoned, women killed for having been raped, etc.

    This is very much an outside view of the culture. I have never seen women stoned, and I don’t know what the bag thing refers too–the fashions? But “killed for having been raped”… now this may refer to the “honor killings”. Women are expected to be virgins when they get married, and even the appearance of a lack of virtue can send their brothers off into homicidal frenzy. When I was over there a girl was stangled by her brother with a telephone cord because her 13-year-old brother thought she was talking to a man on the phone. This is very much something a boy could get teased about at school. The boys usually turn themselves in to the police right away and are acquitted by the courts. Since I left,honor killings have been made illegal, but I understand there is no provision for enforcement of the law. The city Arabs are the ones who want to do away with the law, and the Bedouins are the ones who want to keep it. I has nothing at all to do with religion, except that the Koran forbids parents from killing their children, and also requires children to obey both parents, so fathers sometimes order their sons to kill their daughters.

  224. soopermouse, on December 2nd, 2008 at 2:21 am Said:

    are any of you aware of the fact that India has been opressing discriminated against and murdering Muslims within its borders for decades?
    ——————————————–

    This is utter nonsense.

  225. my bad, I was tired when posting and was thinking in a different language
    Let me rephrase:
    Are you aware that India has been opressing Muslims as a matter of state policy for decades? That many Indian Muslims had to leave the country because of it? That the oppression and discrimination have been happening without any of India’s allies batting an eyelid at it?

    terrorism is a weapon of the powerless against the powerful. Also, isn’t it funny how the terrorism of Palestinians against Israel is applauded in the same circles that consider the Mumbai attack as bad and horrible?

  226. soopermouse, on December 2nd, 2008 at 6:27 am Said:

    my bad, I was tired when posting and was thinking in a different language
    Let me rephrase:
    ——————————–
    I still call it nonsense. It is propaganda from Pakistan. I am not going to say there are no problems but your characterization is also gross and inaccurate generalization. Indian govt has always accommodated the needs of minorities and offers legal protection and in fact, they have bent over backwards for decades to provide such protections that there is a Hindu resentment and backlash in the recent years. By and large, the majority of Muslims in India if given a choice to go live in other Muslim countries, don’t want to leave India. Politicians are crooked sometimes and they have used Muslim enclaves as vote banks and that is a problem because it segregates them from becoming one with the mainstream (much like what is done here with the Blacks the benefit of which we saw very clearly in this past election). Even in this recent Mumbai event, many of the Indian Muslim organizations are rejecting what the terrorists have done in the name of Islam and they don’t want to have anything to do with them (including burying those horrible creatures in their cemeteries). If terrorists (and Pakistan), can incite the division within India between Muslims and Hindus and start an internal conflagration, their goal will be realized. India can then rot just like them. So if you are an American, spitting these ideas without documented evidence and knowledge of the history of the place, then I ask you to stop it.

  227. soopermouse, I have never heard of India discriminating against Moslems, and I am quite familiar with the country, its history, and its people.

    India is a great democracy. As a country, it is much more humane toward people than most Moslem countries are toward their citizens, especially their women.

    Frankly, I can’t understand how anyone would want to be a part of a system (a religion) that, in effect, minimizes the importance and power of its people as individuals. I have found that for me with Moslem people that I have worked with, their personal humility in front of “God” coupled with their overbearing pride in the religion, can be burdensome on a day-to-day level unless I manage to keep all interaction and communication strictly professional.

  228. Lady Boomer said near the end of her post:

    Please talk amongst yourselves and be good to each other.

    Lots of folks seem to have missed the “be good to each other” part.

    So interested in insisting that “their” point of view is the only point of view and the truth “they” see is the only truth that they are quite willing, even eager to pound on one another.

    In my own mind, I find nearly all organized religions to be patriarchies and thus, to me, evil.

    Quakers I believe, although I have not studied the religion believe both in peace and equality of the sexes. But I am sure someone will stomp me flat for having the audacity to say something without having any proof. Peace.

  229. can someone please rescue my comments from the mod queue? I have been acused of being uninformed and I have to defend myself.

  230. “If there were any Muslims on this blog I’m sure they would be reacting the same way.”

    I am not a Muslim and I am extremely offended by Battlecat’s racist and ignorant statements here.

    Ah, I see he/she/it has been banned. Excellent work!

  231. Daniel Pipes
    What is Jihad:

    http://tinyurl.com/5zze88

  232. catarina, pipes is hardly a disinterested scholar. He’s a raving anti-Muslim racist.

  233. pm317

    I suggest you go and google Hindvrat and the Gujarati Massacre before discussing this issue. Your ignorance of an issue does not make it inexistent.

    Karolina
    I am an Atheist who is also ethnically Jewish. However, I do not condone oppressing anyone because of their religion, whatever that religion might be. There is far too much anti Muslim hysteria in all white western media nowadays for anyone to be able to claim they have a correct view of things that happen in areas where the MSM does not care to go without actually going there.

    Have you heard of the Gujarati massacre? No? Then I believe you have no right to talk about this subject since your ignorance is obvious. No, reading the wikipedia entry on it doesn’t count.

  234. Catarina:

    Who is Daniel Pipes?:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Pipes

  235. I’m sorry if my tone sounded curt or dismissive, but too much anti-Arab propaganda is accepted and presented in our society as legitimate, and with little room for dissent. So I tend to be a little hair-trigger when I see it; it’s one of my pet issues like animal abuse and misogyny.

    Pipes is a neocon, a racist, and a huge supporter of the war on Iraq in addition to being known for making jaw-dropping remarks about Arabs and Muslims that would have him stripped of all credibility if he made them about blacks, women, or Asians. He blamed Muslim terrorists for the Oklahoma City bombing (he has since recanted, not like he had any choice) and is one of the founders of the McCarthyesque “Campus Watch” organization (I think Joe Lieberman was involved with that, too) that monitors college professors for any professed anti-Israel bias. Pipes is no better than any mouth-foaming KKKer except he gets lots of prestigious media placements and was nominated to Dubya’s U.S. Peace Institute.

  236. Why iz I in moderation?

  237. cuz u iz radical

  238. From the link on Pipes:

    On his own website and in articles for The Jerusalem Post, Daniel Pipes claimed that Barack Obama was a former Muslim

    […]

    Pipes was a firm supporter of the Vietnam War

    […]

    Pipes encouraged the United States to provide Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein with upgraded weapons and intelligence

    […]

    Pipes was a strong backer of the Iraq War

    […]

    Pipes is a supporter of Israel in the Israel-Palestine conflict and an opponent of a Palestinian state

    […]

    Pipes has advocated that the U.S. “unleash” the Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK) against Iran

  239. Indian security forces killing Islamic kashmiris:

    http://www.hrw.org/legacy/reports/1999/kashmir/abuses.htm

  240. From Human Rights Watch:

    The Indian government should repeal the Armed Forces Special Powers Act, which has prevented the military from being held accountable for human rights violations, Human Rights Watch said today as civil society groups from across India gathered in New Delhi to protest the law.

    The Armed Forces Special Powers Act (AFSPA) grants the military wide powers of arrest, the right to shoot to kill, and to occupy or destroy property in counterinsurgency operations. Indian officials claim that troops need such powers because the army is only deployed when national security is at serious risk from armed combatants. Such circumstances, they say, call for extraordinary measures.

    The AFSPA, which has been in force for decades in Jammu and Kashmir state and the seven northeastern states, has provided immunity for killings and other serious human rights violations committed by the army. Human Rights Watch has documented many cases in Jammu and Kashmir, such as the killing of human rights lawyer Jalil Andrabi in 1996 and the student Javed Ahmed Magray in 2003. In both cases, when police inquiries identified the perpetrators as members of the armed forces, they were shielded by the impunity offered by the AFSPA.

    http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2007/11/19/india-repeal-armed-forces-special-powers-act

  241. myiq

    Pipes has said some wackadoodle things. I don’t agree with everything he has to say.

    But I didn’t post the link above to promote Pipes-I posted it because it discusses Jihad as a right now modern day problem and I believe that to be the truth.

    The article also acknowledges that there are moderate Muslims.

    I’ll be back later if the flu doesn’t take me.

  242. This is the guy whose website Battlecat linked to:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Vines

  243. Catarina:

    When you use ther term “jihad” you classify all violence as religion-based.

    It’s not.

  244. oh crap my head
    loonies like that scare people away from the very real facts

    there has to be some sort of happy medium where there is neither villification or dismissal and denial.

    ok the text is swimming before my eyes ttyl back to bed for me!

  245. Nijma, with all due respect, I have never seen someone murdered. That doesn’t mean no one has ever been murdered.

    In recent news a 13-year old girl was stoned to death for the crime of being raped. Even if she had been a 23-year old adulteress, as initially claimed, her murder would be brutal and heartless. But a raped 13-year old girl? Who would, who could, do this in the name of god?

    So I guess you might be technically correct, Islamic extremists don’t stone women, but they do stone children to death.

    AmnestyInternational

    BBC

  246. “Amnesty International has campaigned to end the use of the punishment of stoning, calling it gruesome and horrific. This killing of Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow demonstrates the cruelty and the inherent discrimination against women of this punishment.”

    source link
    AmnestyInternational

  247. Battlecat:

    Christians have killed more innocents in the name of the Prince of Peace than Muslims have killed in the name of Allah.

    The Hebrews weren’t exactly kind to the Caananites either

    Got real stats or are you just spouting Internet anti-chirstian religion 101?

    In addition, you have equated everything bad done by a christian as in the name of Jesus and yet you argue just the opposite about Muslims. This is all so silly folks. Get over your hate america hate christians first mentality. The majority of Hillary voters and PUMA people would no doubt in my mind be offended by much of this conversation.

    Here are the facts… When Christians did brutal and evil things in the name of Christianity, it was long long ago. Christians are not currently doing anything close to the sick behaviors of SOME Muslims and yes it is in the name of their religion.
    They are us 400 years ago.

  248. This is the guy whose website Battlecat linked to:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerry_Vines

    so what? Good lord, will you stop with the dkos inspired bully behavior? Now we are posting links to make other people we disagree with look bad? I could get this at dkos, but I can’t stand the place anymore. Must you really drag that behavior in to this forum?

  249. badtothebone: I don’t think battlecat said that, actually. I think myiq did.

    This is a fascinating read. Lady Boomer’s posts are always followed by lively commentary.

  250. Again, you quote myiq and i agree that you shouldn’t attack battlecat after s/he was banned. Its not good form.

  251. And, while I’m on the subject, IMHO, Battlecat made some good points and littleisis defended herself well, with additional help later by Pat J. IRL, you couldn’t just ban someone and shut them down.

    Ok, I’m going to read other posts now.

  252. and yes there is something more brutal about beheading someone, an innocent, with a dull knife than there is about dropping a bomb in a war zone that might kill innocents.

  253. I strongly disagree with you – badtothebone . Iraq was attacked by US in 2003 . .. not that long ago. They were in no way a threat to us.

    We are considered a Christian Nation by the world. We attacked a secular Country that had nothing what so ever to do with 911 . AND – oh, btw .. we all ready had that country totally contained – remember …The “No Fly Zone”. ???

    Further more – We set that ‘dictator up’ and supplied him in the 80’s – . Oh We have killed all over this world in the past 40 years . Don’t get me started . Carter – Afghanistan .. Start there. Now, maybe we didn’t drop a bomb or deliver weapons of mass destruction with the words .. ” In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ” .. However, I repeat .- we are known as a Christian Nation.

    Currently in Iraq – we are responsible for 1 million deaths .. maybe more … 4 million Iraqis are displaced … Our country is bankrupt and foreign countries have been paying our credit card debt .. This is NOW ..

    http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10907.htm

  254. badtothebone:

    Stop comparing me to dkos.

  255. soopermouse, on December 2nd, 2008 at 10:03 am Said:

    pm317

    I suggest you go and google Hindvrat and the Gujarati Massacre before discussing this issue. Your ignorance of an issue does not make it inexistent.
    ————————————-

    I am well aware of these developments in the last five years. It again makes my point of outside forces instigating division between Hindu and Muslims within India to destabilize it. Hindus are humans and not saints — they will resent all concessions being made to Muslims when the return is total obliteration of Kashimiri Pandits and other terrorist actions from Muslims (many of whom are not locals). Your accusation of discrimination as a state policy — I still call it nonsense. Muslims have so many role models in Indian society right now if they want to make something of themselves and most do. The Indian President was a fine Muslim gentleman and a scholar. There are so many artists, entrepreneurs, sports people, Journalists, you name it who are Muslims and are offered equal opportunity at everything. Poverty and illiteracy dogs them too as much as it does others but to equate that to discrimination is nonsense. Again, there are many on the outside who benefit from destabilizing India by fomenting division. Let us not fall prey to their propaganda and make it even worse by false exaggeration.

  256. soopermouse, on December 2nd, 2008 at 10:03 am Said:

    pm317

    I suggest you go and google Hindvrat and the Gujarati Massacre before discussing this issue. Your ignorance of an issue does not make it inexistent.
    ————————————-
    One more thing, since you speak of Gujarath massacre. I don’t think LA riots define Black-White race relationship in its entirety in this country and Gujarath riots do not either. Look at how people are responding to the Mumbai horror. Most people are more interested in the growing economy right now (unless some idiot politicians start to stir things up between Hindus and Muslims aided by these terrorists.) But I hope there is enough restraint to prevent another Gujarath riot. Again, people who don’t know the full extent of the history and the politics of a region should not comment with false authority.

  257. I saw the picture of that sweet little boy at his parents funeral and now I cannot stop crying.

  258. myiq2xu, on December 2nd, 2008 at 10:37 am Said:

    Indian security forces killing Islamic kashmiris:

    ———————-

    What do you know about what happened to Kashmiri Pandits? If you want to talk about Kashmir, there is enough on both sides and more. India is not the one committing terrorist acts on Pakistan. Half knowledge is not something I would advocate.

  259. soopermouse—sorry to have to correct you, but it is YOUR ignorance that is obvious. I know India well, and have friends in Delhi and other areas. You are the one posting your opinion as fact. Apparently, you are not even aware that India’s enemies are working to create a nuclear war between India and Pakistan. Your words promote those enemies’ sweetest hopes and dreams…

    BTW, I personally do not discriminate against Moslem people any more than the Hindu Indians do, but I avoid discussing religion with them in order to keep a good resonance in the interactions.

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