• Tips gratefully accepted here. Thanks!:

  • Recent Comments

    HerstoryRepeating on Black Ice
    riverdaughter on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    Sweet Sue on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    riverdaughter on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    riverdaughter on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    someofparts on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    riverdaughter on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    Sweet Sue on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    riverdaughter on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    atl on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    HerstoryRepeating on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    Ivory Bill Woodpecke… on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    riverdaughter on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    riverdaughter on Happy Valentine’s Day!
    jmac on Happy Valentine’s Day!
  • Categories


  • Tags

    abortion Add new tag Afghanistan Al Franken Anglachel Atrios bankers Barack Obama Bernie Sanders big pharma Bill Clinton cocktails Conflucians Say Dailykos Democratic Party Democrats Digby DNC Donald Trump Donna Brazile Economy Elizabeth Warren feminism Florida Fox News General Glenn Beck Glenn Greenwald Goldman Sachs health care Health Care Reform Hillary Clinton Howard Dean John Edwards John McCain Jon Corzine Karl Rove Matt Taibbi Media medicare Michelle Obama Michigan misogyny Mitt Romney Morning Edition Morning News Links Nancy Pelosi New Jersey news NO WE WON'T Obama Obamacare OccupyWallStreet occupy wall street Open thread Paul Krugman Politics Presidential Election 2008 PUMA racism Republicans research Sarah Palin sexism Single Payer snark Social Security Supreme Court Terry Gross Texas Tim Geithner unemployment Wall Street WikiLeaks women
  • Archives

  • History

    November 2008
    S M T W T F S
    « Oct   Dec »
     1
    2345678
    9101112131415
    16171819202122
    23242526272829
    30  
  • RSS Paul Krugman: Conscience of a Liberal

  • The Confluence

    The Confluence

  • RSS Suburban Guerrilla

  • RSS Ian Welsh

    • Republic’s End: Trump’s National Emergency
      “Well, Doctor, what have we got—a Republic or a Monarchy?” “A Republic, if you can keep it.” (Benjamin Franklin) So, apparently Trump has said he will declare a national emergency to build his wall. I’m going to make one point about this. If you have an abusable law or power it will eventually be abused. […]
  • Top Posts

  • Advertisements

Hillary Secretary of State Open Thread

Clinton 2008

There has been a controversy here in recent days over the prospect of Hillary Clinton being nominated and accepting the position of Secretary of State in Barack Obama’s cabinet.  I’m not going to rehash all the arguments for and against the idea, but if you want to discuss it here is your thread.

The usual rules governing comments still apply, and keep in mind that we are all Conflucians, and this is an emotional issue.

I am moderating this thread and I expect you all to behave.  If you don’t want to discuss this topic, find another thread. 

Thank-you in advance for you cooperation

Advertisements

80 Responses

  1. The below article got me thinking hard and long about the SOS position.
    Will We See a Woman President In Our Lifetime?
    http://www.noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/11/22/will-we-ever-see-a-woman-president-in-our-lifetime/#comments

  2. So, the headlines are that she will be an ‘Aide’, not Madame SOS.
    Clinton-Obama Détente: From Top Rival to Top Aide
    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/23/us/politics/23hillary.html?hp

  3. I understand why she may want the job and the Senate seniority system, blah blah blah.

    As of now, after reading the comments of the Obots, if she wants it and they give it to her good! It will make the Obots’ heads explode and that’s good enough for me!

    I still think she’s gonna get screwed on the deal, but she’s a big girl and knows what she’s doing.

  4. Totally OT, but I had to guffaw at this comment in Oblahblah’s Treasurary Secretary pick:

    “While Rudelson and other friends say Geithner’s temperament is similar to Obama’s — calm — critics say he’s thin-skinned and tends to take disagreements as a personal challenge.”
    http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/text/2008422095_geithner22.html

    Obama may look calm but he damn sure takes disagreements as a personal insult to Himself.

  5. If Hillary takes the SoS position, who do y’all think will replace her in the Senate?

    Caroline Kennedy comes to mind. Anybody else want to hazard a guess?

  6. I think Hillary as SOS is the only right thing BZero’s done for this country. I think he knows he’s barely got his head above water and needs help. If ,OTOH ,he wants to use her strictly as a tool, I bet he’ll have some surprises coming.

  7. My personal view is that Obama is gonna be the only President we have for the next four years so I hope he succeeds. If he fails we all suffer.

    Hillary will help him succeed.

    That doesn’t mean I will ever forget or forgive

  8. I am not happy about it and try to give it the least thought possible.
    In other news, teachers humbly demand a non-Bushco type of Secretary of Education (you know, the kind ready to privatize everything). Good luck with that from Jr.jr
    http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2008/11/22/teachers-squirming-under-the-bus/

  9. warrior princess, on November 22nd, 2008 at 1:50 pm Said:

    I am also a 4H kid, and I am definately having turkery this week, and beef tonight. If Sarah decides to take another run in the national spotlight, I will probably do what I can to back her.

    At the same time, I have to say again that I am amazed that more people aren’t showing true horror at Hillary taking the SOS spot. She can’t do anything to help our standing in the world. SOS only does the Pres. bidding. They advance the Pres. view to the world, and are only involved where the Pres. wants them to be. They are also, as a member of the cabinet, expected to keep their opinions to themselves while they are serving,since they represent the administration’s point of veiw.

    Also, only one SOS has lasted eight years, and he isn’t someone to emulate. That means that if there is a dust-up during BO’s run then the SOS is expected to fall on their sword, and leave quietly. Is this really what Hillary’s true supporters want for her?

    I am amazed at the lack of conversation on this topic.
    ***
    Reposting Warrior Princess’ good points and questions.

  10. Nell, it will be up to the NY governor to appoint someone, I believe.

  11. Nell, on November 22nd, 2008 at 2:30 pm Said:

    If Hillary takes the SoS position, who do y’all think will replace her in the Senate?

    Caroline Kennedy comes to mind. Anybody else want to hazard a guess?
    ***

    So, this is really a point for Caroline to be on the ticket as soon as she is elected like Obama. So, look for Caroline on 2012? No offense to her father, but she hasn’t done the work that Senator Hillary has done in 35 + years of service.

    OK, who is really running the country and why don’t the American people know what deals are being brokered! Does one have to get special permission from an ‘Elite’ group, and is this why Sarah is such a threat, because she is just ONE OF US?!?

  12. Hillary has some serious challenges ahead.

    This is an opportunity for her.

    She’ll be a powerful SOS and she’ll create a legacy for herself.

    Still pissed as hell at the dems..

  13. WV Sarah is def not in “the club”

  14. My brother-in-law, a true computer genius, gave Hillary $2000. in the primaries, then, when she was pushed out, said that it was because her campaign messed up.

    So, I wondered what would she have had to do to not be sidelined? Had she(her campaign staff) thought to import people into the first caucus states to rig the voting. That would have helped. I don’t know what she could have done with the media. Maybe, she could have come out both barrels blazing and made the media look so bad from the get -go that they would have pulled back their burned little paws. It worked for McCain with the race baiting. Granted he still lost, but he did stop the race baiting nonsense.

    She could have been a little savier about fund raising. I mean just a few changes to the donations page, and she and Bill could have funneled all kinds of money in there. Let;s face it, it wasn’t so much the advertising with all the money that brought people over, it was the fact that he was raising that much money.

    It would have been helpful if she could have gotten one whole demographic behind her. You know, blacks for Obama, women for Hillary. Then again, women aren’t a demographic that tends to support their own.

    In short, had she done the things that were so successful in this contest, she wouldn’t have been Hillary, and we would be looking askance at her, even if she won. I remember before the primaries, a friend telling me that she thought Hillary had become too much of a politician, and that would hurt her. I replied that only a politician can be a President.

    Now, we have this new problem. We would love to see Hillary in the public, and want to think that as SOS she will be involved with foreign policy and out there as a role model for young women. What about Condaleesa Rice? She is out there, she is in the public all the time. We consider her part of G.W..

    Hillary will break no glass ceilings with this one, she will be the third female SOS. She will advance no programs of her own, they will all be Obama’s, and she will be part of the administration of one of the crookedist, nastiest, most sexist, egomaniacal men to hold the office of President, that is, if he makes it past Justice Thomas on the 3rd of Dec..

    Whether she can make it to the Pres. or not, I would rather see a strong, honest, Hillary, in the Senate, fighting for all of us. That is the person we were so willing to follow. If we loved Hillary, but couldn’t vote for Obama, then why would we want to follow her into his administration, won by trampling over the basic rights of so many of us?

  15. myiq2xu, on November 22nd, 2008 at 2:31 pm Said:

    My personal view is that Obama is gonna be the only President we have for the next four years so I hope he succeeds. If he fails we all suffer.

    Hillary will help him succeed.

    That doesn’t mean I will ever forget or forgive
    ****
    If he succeeds it will be because there were many willing to prop him up, just like those senators in the Illinois senate that had to turn over ‘their’ legislation so that he could run for the US Senate.

    You stand on a keg, he stands on others work. You are more honorable in my eyes, cuz at least its your keg.

  16. As one who did not want her to take the SoS job, I now applaud her for taking it if that’s what she wants. I’m sure she sees benefits I don’t. SoS was the most important job, after the president when the nation was young. In fact, it was almost understood that the SoS would run for president, as Thomas Jefferson did. So maybe Hillary wants to bring back the glorious days of that office. I wish her success.

  17. Fredster
    technically, yes. It’s the governor’s decision. I still think the state party will have a say in it, although NY Post the other day seemed to imply it’s all Chuck Schumer’s decision – and he wants a Jr senator that is unknown enough so as not to overshadow him this time around.

  18. That doesn’t mean I will ever forget or forgive

    Ditto myiq. Having said that, HRC will do a great job keeping our country safe, and making sure Hopey Changey doesn’t have cocktails with Putin any time soon.

    Re: Caroline Kennedy. I don’t know why people keep bringing her name up for political office. Caroline has lived her entire life, except for the BO endorsement, in a private capacity. She has written books on the Bill of Rights and the Right to Privacy, and is a dedicated mother. She serves on several boards, but I have never seen any indication that she wants to enter the political arena. The names being thrown around for HRC’s senate seat are Nita Lowy & Vasquez.

  19. Re: SOS. I think HRC is a public servant in her heart. She is keenly aware of the damaged reputation of the US around the globe, and sees both an opportunity and a responsibility to do what she can to repair it. Personally, I will miss her as my Senator, but will enjoy watching her stride the globe with strength and grace.

  20. If Hillary is pissed at Dems – she’s not showing it! And now is not the time to be pissed in any case. January through November 4th was the time for Hillary to be ticked off. But she was a team player. And then her Senate colleagues gave her the finger. And she still campaigned for a crapload of them through Autumn. And then they pointed her towards the Senate hierarchy and rules and her junior status. And suddenly she’s pissed and is going to stomp away angry to join Obama’s administration? She’s more than capable of being an SoS – but to what end? What does she think she will accomplish when it is the job of the SoS to do the President’s bidding. Look at what happened to Colin Powell. I fear Hillary will suffer a similar fate. I do not understand her interest in the position. Instead of taking her party head on – yes, even now – she’s going to politely remove herself from the mix and let them off the hook. Curiouser and curiouser…

  21. Whether she can make it to the Pres. or not, I would rather see a strong, honest, Hillary, in the Senate, fighting for all of us

    As I said above:

    I still think she’s gonna get screwed on the deal, but she’s a big girl and knows what she’s doing.

  22. WV:

    Like it or not, he’s gonna occupy the Oval Office.

    Can we really afford to let him fail?

  23. From Politico:

    “Sen. Clinton has been at the helm in two big undertakings — had two big executive leadership tasks,” wrote Josh Marshall, the influential founder of Talking Points Memo. “One was health care in 1994, and the other was her presidential bid in 2007-08. Each was something of a train wreck from an executive-level management perspective.”

    John Aravosis, founder of the left-of-center AMERICAblog, says most liberals implicitly trust Obama more than any Democrat in recent memory — and they understand that not every compromise he makes is a sellout.

    ttp://www.politico.com/news/stories/1108/15845.html

  24. Amazing…And someone cares about what John A. sez?

  25. warrior

    Condi IS part of Bush.
    I still cringe every time I think of her telling the Iraqis to “settle your differences quickly”

    Hillary will not be like Condi. Just that she’s there says she is not without considerable power.
    There will be some ugly foreign matters to address these next few years, and many years to come.
    Don’t you feel safer with HRC? It could have been Kerry or Richardson.
    I’m not trying to sugar-coat this. What Obama and the DNC did is still fresh in my mind but I have to separate that from the HRC appointment.

  26. fif:

    Politics takes a special kind of person. I could never be a politician, I don’t have the “people skills.”

    Bill Clinton is a brilliant politician, but part of what makes him great got him in trouble too

  27. fif @ 2:48 pm

    They just can’t help themselves, can they?

  28. Not at all. I very very rarely look around the internet, but checked in at Politico today. It’s all Obama all the time. There were five positive headlines about BO, and one about HRC that said he was “taking a gamble on her, because of her own ambitions yada yada yada.”

    If they still trust Obama after all the shifts he’s made, who’s the stupid one? Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice…

    [or as Bush said: “Just don’t go foolin’ me.”]

  29. I thought “avarosis” was an infected hemmorhoid

  30. Nell, on November 22nd, 2008 at 2:30 pm Said:

    If Hillary takes the SoS position, who do y’all think will replace her in the Senate?

    Carolyn’s name has not come up – an Hispanic congresswoman’s name and another fellow’s name has been floated so far.

    We need someone of Hill’s standing in the world to fill the SOS position. She already has the contacts and is liked – our reputation in the world has suffered terribly under Bush and it needs quick repair – Hill can do that – she’s not working for him – she’s working for us – the US.

  31. warrior princess, on November 22nd, 2008 at 2:41 pm Said:

    It would have been helpful if she could have gotten one whole demographic behind her. You know, blacks for Obama, women for Hillary. Then again, women aren’t a demographic that tends to support their own.

    Whether she can make it to the Pres. or not, I would rather see a strong, honest, Hillary, in the Senate, fighting for all of us. That is the person we were so willing to follow. If we loved Hillary, but couldn’t vote for Obama, then why would we want to follow her into his administration, won by trampling over the basic rights of so many of us?
    ****

    I agree with you on these points and that is why I am not jumping for joy at the prospects of the SOS position. When Condi Rice was present with Bush, she never said a word and all the other words were very measured to the Bush spin. I don’t think they will make special rules for her and my conspiring mind says she is only being offered this because of the tensions between Israel and Iran.

    The thought of a pre- Obama strike is not one they want to walk into and we know that people will say many things in public, but do they have trust in Obama. My guess is that she has the trust, but then she isn’t the president elect, so they will still be dealing with him.

  32. I’m not happy with the idea of HRC as SOS. It’s like the story that she tells about being passed over for student body president for a guy but ended up doing all the work. I also think her prospects for the presidency will diminish – she can’t run against her “boss” in 2012 so it almost guarantees that Obama will serve two terms unless he totally screws things up. In 2016 she will be viewed as “too old” (women are held to a higher standard) and she will have to vacate the SOS spot in 2014 so that she can start her campaigning. Also to keep in mind is that it’s been over 150 years since a SOS became president. I may not see a woman president in my lifetime. HR is the real deal – I can’t think of another woman in the horizon. Anyone have any thoughts about “up and comers”?

  33. John Aravosis, founder of the left-of-center AMERICAblog, says most liberals implicitly trust Obama more than any Democrat in recent memory — and they understand that not every compromise he makes is a sellout.

    implicitly trust??
    like jesus Christ?? more like blindly follow .. where did they think the kool aid analogy came from ??
    which reminds and totally ot…
    what is the deal with cnn and msmbc both recently running documentaries on Jim Jones and the real kool aid story ….

  34. It still amazes me that people on the left BLAME HRC for her health care efforts in the 90’s. Who else had ANY courage to even take it on?? And it failed because of the intense insurance and conservative lobbies. So, she “failed” for even trying? She put the issue on the national stage, and has continued to push it for 15 years. Now, it’s actually a regular topic of discussion, and she is STILL pushing it–more so than Obama ever has. They just refuse to credit her for anything or give her an ounce of respect. Nitwits. What’s beautiful about Hillary is that she ignores them, and as she counseled, she “just keeps going.”

  35. swan: this morning I was talking to a friend about the correlation with fascist propaganda tactics and the creepy parallels to the O campaign’s “feel don’t think” group mentality. She countered with, “Yea, but Hitler was about fear and this is about people being excited about positive change.”

    Uh…no. Hitler also promised change and savior psychology in a time of economic depression. I am not equating O with Hitler, but the mass psychology we have seen is disturbing and dangerous, prone to abuse of power. The O campaign deliberately created and fueled it.

  36. myiq2xu, on November 22nd, 2008 at 2:51 pm Said:

    I thought “avarosis” was an infected hemmorhoid

    That’s from trolling DuPont Circle! 😳

  37. Anything that makes Tweety Bird unhappy makes me happy, and he’s not happy about Hillary as SOS.

  38. No matter what HRC does, there is always an evolving narrative that explicates why Hillary has done as she has and why it is the best that can be done in the circumstances, etc….. right down to save the world… [ If they aren’t going to let her win, they aren’t going to let her get in the way of the “plan”; “be a good girl Hilly, give the speech, and don’t show those “ankles”, etc…]

    Q: Why?
    A: [standard refrain] ” Well, she is Hillary!”

    [ If they aren’t going to let HRC win, they aren’t going to let her get in the way of the “plan”; “be a good girl Hilly, give the speech, and don’t show those “ankles”, etc…]
    Anyway, who can resist the Siren call of being the executive scapegoat….. and the obots get to keep their pinata! I very much it will hope turn out otherwise, an argument, because in this case I WANT to be wrong.

    hooray.

    WV “…why is Sarah such a threat, because she is just ONE OF US?!?”

    That ought to be repeated every day ad nauseam.

  39. our reputation in the world has suffered terribly under Bush and it needs quick repair – Hill can do that – she’s not working for him – she’s working for us – the US.

    Joanelle: that’s exactly how I see it, and how I think HRC approaches it. It’s not about BO. I don’t even see him. Our country needs her skills and she is stepping up. She would do the same in the Senate, but be very limited by the stupid seniority crap. Beyond SOS, HRC will continue to contribute and reinvent herself. Never count her out for anything.

  40. The “boys” don’t want Hill back in the Senate – she showed up many of them by the number of votes she was able to garner (18,000,000,000) in the primary – she did not get a warm welcome back and would not be able to do the same level of work there as she did before – I believe the technical term is :jealousy

    Obama needs someone in the SOS position who has respect of other world leaders =HRC; is tactful and understands implications of actions and words = HRC; has had personal interactions with other leaders in order to hit the ground running = HRC; can smooth over the rough spots left by Bush = HRC.
    She is the best person for the job – yes, I would rather she were in the President’s seat but the fix was in years ago, so let’s make the best of what we have.

  41. And I realize many SOS’s don’t even make it thru the first term.

  42. Cannonfire had two excellent posts on the Hillary/SOS point. Here’s one:

    Hillary will be the Secretary of State, it seems. A few posts down, I reminded readers that the SOS position was robbed of its usual significance and power during the Nixon administration, when national security adviser Henry Kissinger began running foreign policy, shunting aside William Rogers.

    The Kissinger of the Obama administration will be Marine General Jim Jones, who is poised to become Obama’s new national security adviser. (There was previously some talk of Jones taking the veep position.) This piece makes clear that Jones is demanding as much power as possible, so I don’t think that my Kissinger/Rogers reference is wide of the mark.

    Yeah, I know: Jim Jones. You may as well get your Kool-Aid jokes out of the way right now, although a better use of your time would be to check the man’s resume.

    Which seems to say Hillary as SOS may not be the dominant force in the admin on foreign policy.

    All we can do is trust her.

  43. myiq2xu, on November 22nd, 2008 at 2:47 pm Said:

    WV:

    Like it or not, he’s gonna occupy the Oval Office.

    Can we really afford to let him fail?
    ****
    Well, I couldn’t afford for BUSH II to fail (another stolen elect) either, but that didn’t get me all fuzzy and willing to sing in the BUSH Choir. In fact there is a photo in a file of me protesting him…so, just staying true to form. I would rather go and volunteer with Ralph Nader and that cutie Matt (gosh does that guy have a beautiful mind).

    So, we will each do what we have to do, but I won’t be an OBAMA GIRL…can’t handle someone that would campaign with a supporter of Sharia Law, even if it was his cousin (Odinga). I will put most of my energy and my two nickles into women causes.

    Do post a photo of you when you get your pom poms and show us the vid of your Obama is going to fix it song though… 😯

  44. Blind trust in Hillary is no better than blind trust in Obama or Bush.

    Ultimately Hillary will do what she deems necessary (not always what she wants). If you don’t want her to take SoS, let her know. If you want her to take it, let her know as well.

    Hillary is the last member of Congress I trust and with her doing Obama’s bidding at state (and don’t kid yourself, SoS *always* pushes the policies of the president) there is no one who will be the voice of the invisible. She can’t do anything for me at State even if she wanted to. Plus, it will be a man, and not her own right, that will be responsible for her position. That’s exactly how history will be written by the Obama supporters.

  45. I am still hurt/upset about Hillary & the whole primary/convention. I am still waiting for her to become POTUS, we will try again in 8 years if she feels up to it.
    SOS: If she stayed in the Senate, then Harry Reid would make up his fake position to keep her quiet. I am confident that she will be an amazing SOS and I can only hope that she gives BO hell in the process.

    She will help improve our standing in the world.

  46. right fif.. and this part is exceptionally laughable
    and they understand that not every compromise he makes is a sellout.

    not every one?? Ok, just every other one?? Every fourth ” compromise ” is not the sell out and all those in between are ?? is there a mathematical computation or formula we can use to figure out which ones are not sell outs ??

    and as for the germans ..they were high on the new state germany would be and were promised the world on a plate…….. not unlike…..

    um someone we know he definitely did not encourage thinking and he still does not

    The interesting thing will be that bo never did withstand too much scrutiny , and he will be much more revealed in office .

  47. What is of more importance to those in the international community: America’s international policies or who communicates them? I’m sincerely asking.

    In my book, as one friend noted, having someone of HRC’s caliber as SoS will merely highlight how completely fucked our country is in our having elected a place holder when we could have had a stateswoman.

    “All we can do is trust her.”

    When does trust become faith?

  48. gqmartinez, on November 22nd, 2008 at 3:18 pm Said:

    Hillary is the last member of Congress I trust and with her doing Obama’s bidding at state (and don’t kid yourself, SoS *always* pushes the policies of the president) there is no one who will be the voice of the invisible. She can’t do anything for me at State even if she wanted to. Plus, it will be a man, and not her own right, that will be responsible for her position. That’s exactly how history will be written by the Obama supporters.
    ****

    That will be the biggest loss…losing the voice of the invisible. I knew Senator Hillary Clinton could see me and others like me. I will write a letter, albeit I don’t think it will matter, but I will make the effort.

  49. Obama may look calm but he damn sure takes disagreements as a personal insult to Himself.

    Yeah, this is one of the points all these people lavishing praise on Obama’s temperament — including, bizarrely, Charles Krauthammer — seem complete to forget: just about no other major politician seems to get more aggrieved, entitled, dismissive and arrogant than Obama when real criticism comes his way. Only Bush himself seems to be nearly as petulant and vindictive.

    One of the remarkable things about Bill Clinton is that criticism seemed to put him at the top of his game as a politician. That’s when the charm most came through, allowing him to win back support, even grow that support. Hillary likewise turned criticism to real advantage — hence her success later in the primaries despite being dismissed as a candidate.

    Of one thing we can be certain: Obama will enter a period in his Presidency, as has every President, when biting criticism will be directed toward him. That’s then we will see him at his very worst. And all the Kings horses and all the Kings men won’t keep his image intact at that stage.

  50. I would hope, if events on the world stage come down to it during the next 4 years, that it is Hillary standing in the breach and not say…. Bill Richardson…

    yikes! what a scary thought!

  51. jvsp, on November 22nd, 2008 at 3:19 pm Said:

    we could have had a stateswoman.

    “All we can do is trust her.”

    When does trust become faith?
    *******
    Yup, we could have had one, the real one, the one that put in the work, isn’t that what the American Dream is supposed to be about. WHA… 😦

  52. Like it or not, he’s gonna occupy the Oval Office.

    Can we really afford to let him fail?

    I would turn the question around: if Obama is at least perceived as a great success, how does change from all that he has represented ever come about?

    The at least valid question is: how can we afford for him really to succeed?

    While the circumstances are different, of course, many Conservatives were happy that Carter got elected over Ford and failed, because they knew it would speed the way for real change in the person of Reagan.

    I don’t see even the hope of real change and a genuine liberal/progressive movement if Obama is perceived as a major success. He will define down “change” for decades, if he does.

  53. The names I have seen floated for HRC’s Senate seat are Kirsten Gillibrand and Andrew Cuomo. I would prefer to see another woman, and Gillibrand is supposed to be a great up and comer.

    Here is how I think the timeline went:

    11/4 – HRC on CBS News: “I have no interest in serving in Obama’s Administration.”

    – HRC goes to the Senate, says she wants to be in charge of health care. Ted Kennedy says no, it’s MINE MINE MINE!

    – HRC realizes the Senate is going to treat her like dogsh*t.

    – Obama realizes she is open to other options. He wants her answering the red phone instead of him.

    – Obama offers her SOS.

    11/22 – Waiting for her to say yes or no…

  54. Obama’s appointments are all Clintonites except for White House staff.
    Center for American Politics headed by John Podesta
    Media Matters
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/bloomberg/20081118/pl_bloomberg/af7fb1pf0npg

    Both groups said to be founded by Hillary Clinton:
    We are certainly better prepared and more focused on, you know, taking our arguments, and making them effective, and disseminating them widely, and really putting together a network, uh, in the blogosphere, in a lot of the new progressive infrastructure, institutions that I helped to start and support like Media Matters and Center for American Progress. – Hillary Clinton at Yearly Kos, 2007


    at about 2:40.

    Barack Obama is Hillary Clinton’s waterboy.

  55. madamab, on November 22nd, 2008 at 3:37 pm Said:

    – HRC goes to the Senate, says she wants to be in charge of health care. Ted Kennedy says no, it’s MINE MINE MINE!
    ******
    If you needed an ambulance would you trust him to get help or that hairy 7 foot clown running around here?

  56. Obama can fire her whenever he wants.

    And unfortunately Barack’s Cheney is Axelfraud-a man said to be of twisted intelligence who dislikes both Clintons.

    She can also be blamed for whatever goes wrong.

    Successful SOSs, such as Madeleine Albright and Henry Kissinger, had freedom of movement.
    There has always been a sense of control, at times of intimidation hovering around the Obama camp.

    Yet even Albright working for a supportive President like Bill Clinton, was massacred by the Press.
    from Wikipedia:

    She was also criticized for defending the sanctions of Iraq under Saddam Hussein in a 1996 interview with Lesley Stahl on CBS’s 60 Minutes. When asked by Stahl with regards to effect of sanctions against Iraq: “We have heard that half a million children have died. I mean, that’s more children than died in Hiroshima. And, you know, is the price worth it?” Albright replied: “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.”[10] She expressed regret for this remark in her 2003 autobiography, where she wrote,

    I must have been crazy; I should have answered the question by reframing it and pointing out the inherent flaws in the premise behind it. […] As soon as I had spoken, I wished for the power to freeze time and take back those words. My reply had been a terrible mistake, hasty, clumsy, and wrong. […] I had fallen into a trap and said something that I simply did not mean. That is no one’s fault but my own.[11]

    This “trap” has been identified as a loaded question.[12][13] Her failure to “refram[e the question] and point[] out [its] inherent flaws”[11] has been called “the non-denial heard ’round the world”[14] because “by not challenging the statistic, Albright inadvertently lent credence to it.”[12] When asked about her response in 2005, Albright said “I never should have made it, it was stupid,” and that she still supported the concept of tailored sanctions.[15]

  57. I think she’ll be a teriffic SoS. Plus, the foreign policy experience will add greatly to her resume.

    The thing that troubles me the most about the Obama situation is that the Arab world is finally waking up and realizing that he is NOT a Muslim, after all. Apparently, they had some belief that he was a Muslim pretending to be a Christian to get elected (and that, BTW, is the source of those rumors, not the Republicans, who were merely discussing what was said by Kadaffi and bin Laden– Rush and Sean never bit into that one).

    However, the first thing Obama did after the election was select Rahm Emmanuel as his Chief of Staff– not merely Jewish but a past member of the Israeli Defense Force. Now, Jihadi World is ticked off at him, since it’s been made clear that he is NOT Muslim– or at least not a Muslim compatable with the extreme beliefs of those particular leaders.

    What those Muslim leaders were thinking, I believe, is that since Obama was raised Muslim, attended a maddrassas, etc, he must still be Muslim and in the process of hoodwinking the US population through the election. However, now they know that he is an apostate, since he chose to be Christian after he grew up.

    Even in US-friendly Muslim nations with Sharia law, like Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, apostasy is a capital crime.

    I’m waiting to see how these leaders will deal with this. Dealing with a mere Infidel like Bush is one thing. But Apostates are to be beheaded.

    What will come of this? We must wait and see.

    Hillary has her work cut out for her.

  58. yep, madamapajamas-I always felt that there were a large number of Arab fratboyz out there sending money fom abroad to support “their” candidate.

    After all, as BB pointed out why let Joe six-pack choose ?

  59. “I’m waiting to see how these leaders will deal with this. Dealing with a mere Infidel like Bush is one thing. But Apostates are to be beheaded.”

    I wonder if those Belgian cartoonists will get to visit the White House…. Maybe Salman Rushdie can stay at the Lincoln room, or the teddy bear Muhammed can go to the berry-kid’s show and tell……….

  60. Laurie – The thing is, Hillary is already a very well-known politician with a huge following. If we back her up and don’t throw her under the bus, she could be a very powerful force for good in Obama’s Administration.

    If she were to take a Cabinet position, I would have preferred her as HHS Secretary or Treasury Secretary. But I was floored by her knowledge of foreign policy in the debates – in fact, that’s what moved me into her camp. She just seemed to understand EVERYTHING.

    I’m hoping for the best.

  61. Yep…that’s what I said

  62. I’ve heard, Higgins from upstate NY and Nydia M. Velasquez, from Brooklyn as possible nominees for Hill’s seat.

  63. Well, madamab-Hill would obviously be the best choice for the country-it all depends on how much support and backing a person gets from their employer.

    Statesmen abroad are particularly sensitive to the status their interlocutor has-i.e. if that particular SOS has, or doesn’t have the ear of the POTUS.

    They don’t like wasting time dealing with people who are pushing their own agenda or are out of touch with realities back home.

    Hill may spend enormous amounts of energy and reams of competent planning, only to find it all gets thrown out at the man to man stage.

    At the moment problems are economic. Russia has, for example, just lost 70% of its stock market, and people there are deeply worried about a return to the extreme poverty and breakdown of the 1990s. All of Europe is in “technical” recession.

    There are going to be many big summits. And less room for SOSs to maneouvre (but plenty of room for SOSs to get the blame).

    To tell you the truth I don’t know what to think about this issue…

  64. lol…great picture.

  65. I will admit to being as confused as the next one. Whether this bodes for ill or good only time will tell. Just let it be said that I have been severely disappointed throughout this election so what’s one more.

  66. My husband says “Hope is the new Progress”. I say “Hope, now with 150% less progress”.

    I don’t want Hillary to take SOS. There are plenty of you talking about how Hillary can heal the negative perceptions of the US out in the world. That’s bullshit. First of all, most citizens of other countries couldn’t tell you who the SOS is. Secondly, the SOS could be Jesus Christ or an army of CareBears, it’s not going to do any good if your President sucks because the SOS is stuck mouthing the party line. I speak here as someone who grew up in Canada and couldn’t name even a single SOS, despite being able to tell you who ran for President against Bush Senior (and I was a kid then).

    I don’t believe that she will be in a position of power as SOS. I think the country will feel her loss from the Senate far more than they would benefit from her as SOS. As SOS, Obama will take credit for any good she does and she will take the fall for his mistakes. She will never be President if she takes SOS. If she stays in the Senate, she has her own voice, and she can work towards her own goals. She could still run in 2012.

    Beyond that, it is OBAMA’s responsibility to choose credible people for his cabinet. It is not Hillary’s fault if he picks someone terrible for SOS after she (hopefully) refuses. I am sick to death of seeing Hillary be a good girl and do what others say she should. There is NOTHING about the SOS post that will benefit her. But it will get her out of the way for every other politician who prefers that she stop setting the bar so high. That doesn’t benefit the country, it benefits the fatcat male politicos, and only them.

    Finally, I don’t care if Obama is the only President we’ll have for the next four years. I still don’t want him to succeed. I want his failure to have non-catastrophic consequences, probably. But I want things to suck bad enough to wake up the wholefoods nation. I want things to suck bad enough that people see that they should be wary of voting for a brand instead of a politician. I want things to suck bad enough that people can see that no good came of a campaign waged on race-baiting and misogyny and homophobia and hatred and groupthink and mob mentality. I don’t want more wars. I don’t want an economic collapse. I don’t want everything to go to hell. But I don’t want to see everything that motherfscker did en route to the White House justified, and I do not want to see him go down in History as a good President. That widespread realization to me will represent progress, even if it comes at a great cost.

  67. Let’s for argument’s sake say that obama is a lying, thieving, psychopath and you work your heart out for Hillary Clinton who is a great woman. And then, by cheating, obama “wins” and then Clinton supports the lying, thieving psychopath by joining his administration. And now we are to say, okay, it is good for the country? No, you never join the nazi party or whoever you don’t believe in. You work from within your own good conscience as a US Senator. I will never support her decision to be SOS. That is what I believe.

  68. fif’s comment. rinse, and repeat. and repeat. and repeat:

    It still amazes me that people on the left BLAME HRC for her health care efforts in the 90’s. Who else had ANY courage to even take it on?? And it failed because of the intense insurance and conservative lobbies. So, she “failed” for even trying? She put the issue on the national stage, and has continued to push it for 15 years. Now, it’s actually a regular topic of discussion, and she is STILL pushing it–more so than Obama ever has. They just refuse to credit her for anything or give her an ounce of respect. Nitwits. What’s beautiful about Hillary is that she ignores them, and as she counseled, she “just keeps going.”

    And this from Sandra S.:

    I want things to suck bad enough that people can see that no good came of a campaign waged on race-baiting and misogyny and homophobia and hatred and groupthink and mob mentality. I don’t want more wars. I don’t want an economic collapse. I don’t want everything to go to hell. But I don’t want to see everything that motherfscker did en route to the White House justified.

    So I hate the thought of Hillary propping up that lying, thieving whatnot with her competence. I really, really, really hate it.

  69. I don’t know why, I have no opinion or emotion on this subject.

  70. It’s some sort of painful compartmentalization, I guess, for which I’ve I lost the key. I can focus on other elements like election reform, caucuses, misogyny. Or maybe, because it is what it’s going to be and I can’t change it. What’s best for the country, her constituents, the rest of us? I see no choice that can involve what’s best for her.

  71. Hillary deserves a platform for her idealogy. She deserves recognition for her intelligence. She deserves loyalty for her many years of service to the DNC, as well as to the American public.

    Sadly, the SOS position will not give her any of the things she deserves. The Obama administration will use her, just as the DNC did. The media (MSNBC/Chris Matthews) will criticize and demean her daily, as they did during the primaries, as they continue to do during the cabinet speculations.

    “The All Boys’ Club” clearly is not ready or able to recognize or accept a “superior” intellect in the female guise. So, in sheer envy, they attack, demean, and sabotage her.

    Stay in the Senate,Hillary. Build your own legacy. Follow your own agenda. You don’t need to “prop up” those weak boys anymore. Tell them all to go to hell.

  72. I wrote to Senator Clinton urging her to remain in the Senate. Not that my voice will make any difference; I am beginning to believe nothing I say matters to the people at that level, not even to her. But I agree with Anna Marie and the others who said she deserves more than to prop up the weaklings who have taken over the Democratic party. I also agree that I want the next administration to spectacularly fail…but I doubt it will wake up any of his followers. They will simply blame racism and people like us for his failures.

  73. Of course there isn’t anything remotely thruthful in the news media of late. So, heres is what I have about the new and improved Hillary v Obama image.

    http://pumasunleashed.wordpress.com/2008/11/23/clinton-obama-detente-from-top-rival-to-top-aide/

  74. This article in the Independent (UK) has some interesting details about her acceptance of the post:
    “Before Hillary Clinton has been formally offered the job as Secretary of State, a purge of Barack Obama’s top foreign policy team has begun.

    The advisers who helped trash the former First Lady’s foreign policy credentials on the campaign trail are being brutally shunted aside, as the price of her accepting the job of being the public face of America to the world. In negotiations with Mr Obama this week before agreeing to take the job, she demanded and received assurances that she alone should appoint staff to the State Department. She also got assurances that she will have direct access to the President and will not have to go through his foreign policy advisers on the National Security Council, which is where many of her critics in the Obama team are expected to end up.”

    http://tinyurl.com/5qc943

    Sounds like National Security Council and State will be opposing camps.

  75. I read somewhere that Hillary & Jim Jones (NSA) are good friends and allies…can’t remember where, so don’t have a link. But if that is true, maybe all isn’t as ominous as Joe Cannon surmises.

    I hope among Hill’s first picks for her team will be former Amb. Joe Wilson. and/or Valerie Plame. They were among the most loyal of her supporters from day 1 and both have far too much fp experience to waste.

  76. my thought on Hillary as S.O.S. is basically if that’s what she wants to do then more power to her. After everything that she has done and been put through, nobody should question her decision. She should be the President, but that wasn’t to be (because people basically suck – and are fools) My hope is that BoBo knows he’s not up to the challenge of being POTUS, and Hillary is accepting the position because SHE will be in charge of foreign policy. I’d sleep much better if Hillary were the President elect, but knowing that she’s at least in the mix I at least feel that someone’s got my back.

    Ed

  77. look the cannons of the world are trying to save face and encourage this type of speculation. they want trouble between hillary and jones. it serves their purposes. i don’t know much about jim jones but i hope he loves his country first and foremost. wouldn’t it be grand if clark played a part with state!

  78. I think Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. will be the appointee for his father’s seat. I believe I am remembering correctly. Didn’t Hillary say that once?

  79. Joanelle,

    ‘she’s working for us – the US’.

    That is so cool!

    As far as I’m concerned as long as Obama signs on the dotted line and does not veto progressive stuff, I will continue to support certain issues and oppose others. I will compromise in exactly the same measure I feel they are willing to compromise.

    About SOS I really think it is important that Hillary knows exactly what it is that Obama hopes to achieve and the strategy he will try to use to achieve it. If she feels this is not, in her opinion a good position for the US, I hope she will not take the appointment. As far as I believe, she brings with her a credibility that many trust her, and the worst thing would be to use that trust to pursue policy that is not in her opinion in our best interest.

  80. “’she’s working for us – the US’.
    That is so cool!”

    As much as I admire what will soon be my former Senator, other than attending to her career, for whom she is working is less than clear.

    Trust or faith……….

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: