• Tips gratefully accepted here. Thanks!:

  • Recent Comments

    William on Last GoT post, I promise
    HerstoryRepeating on Last GoT post, I promise
    Kathleen A Wynne on Last GoT post, I promise
    William on Last GoT post, I promise
    William on Last GoT post, I promise
    Kathleen A Wynne on Last GoT post, I promise
    bellecat on Last GoT post, I promise
    William on Last GoT post, I promise
    William on Last GoT post, I promise
    William on Last GoT post, I promise
    Propertius on GoT finale: Art imitates …
    Catscatscats on Last GoT post, I promise
    Catscatscats on Last GoT post, I promise
    bellecat on That damn crossbow
    HerStoryRepeating on That damn crossbow
  • Categories


  • Tags

    abortion Add new tag Afghanistan Al Franken Anglachel Atrios bankers Barack Obama Bernie Sanders big pharma Bill Clinton cocktails Conflucians Say Dailykos Democratic Party Democrats Digby DNC Donald Trump Donna Brazile Economy Elizabeth Warren feminism Florida Fox News General Glenn Beck Glenn Greenwald Goldman Sachs health care Health Care Reform Hillary Clinton Howard Dean John Edwards John McCain Jon Corzine Karl Rove Matt Taibbi Media medicare Michelle Obama Michigan misogyny Mitt Romney Morning Edition Morning News Links Nancy Pelosi New Jersey news NO WE WON'T Obama Obamacare OccupyWallStreet occupy wall street Open thread Paul Krugman Politics Presidential Election 2008 PUMA racism Republicans research Sarah Palin sexism Single Payer snark Social Security Supreme Court Terry Gross Texas Tim Geithner unemployment Wall Street WikiLeaks women
  • Archives

  • History

    November 2008
    S M T W T F S
    « Oct   Dec »
     1
    2345678
    9101112131415
    16171819202122
    23242526272829
    30  
  • RSS Paul Krugman: Conscience of a Liberal

  • The Confluence

    The Confluence

  • RSS Suburban Guerrilla

    • An error has occurred; the feed is probably down. Try again later.
  • RSS Ian Welsh

    • Everyone’s Noticed The Oncoming US/China Cold War
        Horowitz calls it a tech cold war, but it is unlikely to stay that way. Cutting Huawei off from all non-open source Google services, including the play store, and not allowing it to buy US components is a huge blow to Huawei. Huawei is ahead in 5G, and American allies have been reluctant to […]
  • Top Posts

  • Advertisements

Friday: Cocco Puffs

Marie Cocco wrote a face slapping Hai Karate piece yesterday on the status of women.  The Glass Ceiling Still Holds is not for the feint of heart:

It is time to stop kidding ourselves. This wasn’t a breakthrough year for American women in politics. It was a brutal one.

The glass ceiling remains firmly in place — not cracked, as Hillary Clinton insisted as she tried to claim rhetorical victory after her defeat in the Democratic nominating contest. It wasn’t even scratched with the candidacy of Sarah Palin as the Republican vice presidential nominee — unless you consider becoming an object of national ridicule to be a symbol of advancement. As divergent as these two women are ideologically and temperamentally, as different as are their resumes, they both banged their heads — hard — against the ceiling. Both were bruised. So was the goal of advancing women in political leadership.

But, we are invariably told, surely there are enough women moving through the “pipeline” of lower offices so that someday, some woman from somewhere will win the presidency or the vice presidency. Well, here is how things stand: Eight women will serve as governors in 2009, the same as this year. The proportion of women serving in statewide elective office actually has dropped since it reached a high of about 28 percent in 2000; it is now about 24 percent, according to the center.

Yes, ladies, we have actually *lost* ground.  There will likely never be another Hillary Clinton in our lifetime.   That’s because in order to get to Hillary’s stature, a woman will have to be in the public sphere for a long time so that the electorate can achieve a kind of comfort level with her.  There aren’t any women coming up that are going to have those opportunities.  Most Americans don’t even know who Nancy Pelosi is and those who do would like her to grow a spine.  Katherin Sebelius?  She’s as washed out and flavorless as a politician can be.  Besides, these women are not on TV everyday, doing things, whether you like those things or not.  The thing Clinton had going for her was seen as a liability by her party- her ability to polarize people.  She was a well known commodity. The public watched her grow from a first lady to a senator. You either loved her or hated her. But during the campaign season, even the people who thought they hated the Clintons came to have a grudging respect for her.

There is a section of Cocco’s piece that I take issue with:

Those who watched the media’s sexist hazing of both Clinton and Palin often rationalize this treatment as the result of these two candidates’ particular personalities and the legitimacy — or presumed illegitimacy — of their campaigns. But Barbara Lee, whose Boston-based family foundation has conducted extensive research of gubernatorial races involving women, routinely identifies the same undercurrents in state campaigns. Voters demand more experience of a woman candidate, and judge her competence separately from whether she is sufficiently “likable.” Male candidates typically must clear only the competence bar to be judged — as Obama indelicately put it during a primary debate — “likable enough.”

“We heard that over and over again — that no woman is ever right,” Lee says of her focus groups. “They like the concept of it but when it comes to a real, live, breathing candidate, they don’t.”

The problem was not voters.  The problem was that the media didn’t like her, her own party didn’t like her.  And what do these two entities consist of anyway?  From what I can tell, they are overwhelmingly white, late middle aged men.  Is it any wonder that they were not Hillary fans?  Maybe this in part explains the strange phenomenon of Hillary winning primaries after the media had pronounced her dead.  The institutions that arrayed against her were anachronisms.  Their pronouncements didn’t resonate with the millions of men and women who are in the rest of the workforce and who grew up, got educated and clawed or are clawing their way up the corporate ladder.  In the REAL world, women still have it tough but they have cracked a lot more glass ceilings than they have in the boardroom of GE or the Democratic party inner circle.

The party could have won easily with Hillary.  She inspired confidence, capability, intelligence and intestinal fortitude.  This was her year.  It was OUR year and it was brutally suppressed by a bunch of fricking neanderthals who refused to evolve.

They’ve got to go.

Advertisements

192 Responses

  1. “They’ve got to go.” Yes, they do.

    I’m sending this to my mom who still doesn’t really understand why any self-respecting woman could never have voted for Barack Obama.

  2. The Democratic Party, the media and the big money behind them. Our wealthy donors and corporate influence make democracy a hard goal to achieve in the U.S.

    I keep remembering the State Senate in New Hampshire that did have a breakthrough this year. Are there more women in the U.S. Senate than we’ve had before with the addition of Jean Sheehan?

  3. That should be Jeanne Sheehan.

    Yes, we did make some progress in the congress:
    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/13/women.in.politics/index.html

    “In the House, 10 new congresswomen will join the 64 incumbents who were re-elected, according to Rutgers University’s Center for American Women and Politics, bringing the number of women in the 435-seat body to a record 74. The 100-member U.S. Senate gained one woman, Democrat Jeanne Shaheen of New Hampshire, who became the 17th female senator.”

    Does not negate the misogyny or the defeats in the big offices. It’s all about power. It isn’t shared, it’s wrested when it changes.

  4. World Net Daily has officially taken up the cause of digging up the truth about Obama’s birth certificate! Please go read, DIGG, and sign the petition at World Net Daily:http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81581

    Thanks!

  5. I’m still hoping she gets to run again in 2016. I know, I know … “they” will say she’s too old. But if she cared what the media thought she’d be in a padded cell somewhere right now.

    Having a Clinton in the white house is our best shot at instant 30% solution.

  6. Alex … tell it to NoQuarter. BC is off topic here.

  7. …and we need to call them on it. Great post RD – we need to barrage the management of those newspapers, radio & TV stations and magazines each and every time we see/hear one of those articles until the management gets it that those guys are dinosaurs. They no longer reflect the needs and wants of their consumers.
    Note that use of all media except online is down.
    I wrote to Marie yesterday, her response was interesting:

    Thanks. I find Maureen Dowd to be a caricature of herself. I can’t even read her.

    Frankly, some of the sexism liberals threw at Sarah Palin was equally disgusting. Men and women on the liberal side were equally guilty

  8. I have to put my two cents in regarding voters. As we certainly saw, there were more than enough women lining up to brutalize Hillary and Sarah. And there was a segment of those that didn’t that quietly expressed an unwillingness to have a woman with THAT MUCH power.

    I always wonder how much my small circle of experience reflects the greater world. But in my small circle, I see I daily. In just my extended workplace, there are plenty of women resenting other women, undermining, brutalizing. And those that don’t quietly go along.

    One workmate told me she that Hillary was more experienced hands-down, but that she felt it was “more appropriate” for her to stay in the Senate.

    I’m thinking, “This is Seattle in 2008! Holy Shit!”

    In 1984, just after I graduated college after studying filmmaking, I could only get industry jobs that involved support like travel arrangements for crew. Meanwhile, guys with no training or experience were getting hired off the street as grips and in other tech roles. Nothing has changed.

    I am proud of my boys, who have seen firsthand my heartbreack over this. I love hearing these young guys that will grow-up feminists. I think there is a next wave coming, led by the off-spring from movements like this.

  9. britgirls (?), thanks for the suggestion :-).

  10. Alex, it’s true that RD has asked that we not go over that here. Personally, I am curious why all the evasion, but that’s the drill.

  11. joaniebone – I have the same experience at work. In fact, two co-workers, HRC voters in the primary turned gleefully vicious on Palin and believed every smear and slur immediately and without question. I can’t even look them in the eye any more. I have no respect for them. One is even a grandmother to two adorable little girls. I find it appalling.

    So though I agree with RD that it comes down to baby boomer dem men in the establishment of the party and the media who deep-sixed Clinton this year, there is a wider and more intractable problem.

    My husband once asked me why women don’t unite against the oppression of women in, for example, muslim countries. Same problem as here – many women are part of the oppression of women. And like my co-workers – the are double agents.

    They don’t go by principle, consistently applied.

  12. I have to agree with Cocco that this was a bad year for women. The nation witnessed a brilliant, qualified female candidate getting beat down and put in her place. I think it makes no difference whether it was the media or the voters, the message was clear, “Don’t you dare even try!”

    Women may have taken some congressional seats, but all politics is local. On a national level, we got slapped and slapped hard. There is much work to do.

  13. perries,

    Fow do we deal with this? I reduced to trying a marketing campaign to make feminism COOL again?

    what about a big”F” logo in the middle of a daisy?

    The closest thing we seem to have in terms of broad participation in support of women is the pink ribbon fight against breast cancer. It has always bugged me that we are symbolized by pink ribbons.

  14. what about a big”F” logo in the middle of a daisy?

    that was snark–kind of.

  15. ouch, my typing –5:45 am.

  16. lol, I like the idea of an “F” logo, but for other reasons!

  17. there was definate double meaning there, janicen!

  18. myiq? Still here? Is your kitty-cat okay?

  19. janicen, on November 21st, 2008 at 8:41 am Said:

    “Women may have taken some congressional seats, but all politics is local. On a national level, we got slapped and slapped hard. There is much work to do.”
    *********

    Absolutely! We’re witnessing the birth of the fourth wave of feminism.

  20. I also want to add that, in order for women to be successful, they must also be beautiful. I believe that, if Sarah Palin was less gorgeous and a little frumpy, she would not have gained the following she had.

    Now that I’ve said that, I also think it may have hurt Palin to be so attractive because it may have added to the “dumb” image. Let’s face it, women just have it hard.

  21. But Hillary isn’t (traditionally) attractive and she still managed to wield incredible power.

  22. purplefinn, on November 21st, 2008 at 8:50 am Said:

    Absolutely! We’re witnessing the birth of the fourth wave of feminism.

    ************

    Well, I was a proud participant in the third wave, and I will stand with my sisters in the fourth or fifth or sixth or however many it takes. I’ll be ninety five and still be a feminist!

  23. Movements have never depended on becoming mainstream from the start. During the second wave the standard phrase was “I’m not a feminist, but….. I believe in equal pay, Title IX etc. We just need to move the bar so that some of the things we are fighting for come after the “but” whatever the name of women’s rights activists.

    Quotes I like:

    “I myself have never been able to find out precisely what feminism is; I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat or a prostitute.”
    — Rebecca West, 1913

    Margaret Mead said ”A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it’s the only thing that ever has.”

  24. Reg, I have to disagree. I think she’s gorgeous. Even moreso in person than on TV. My husband thinks so too, so at least one man thinks she hot!

  25. this year was doubly bad for women because we not only lost the nomination of Hill but our daughters/grandaughters got to witness a futile fight for equality. What lesson did they learn in that?

    Another slap down! 😦

  26. before I forget, I want to mention how much I like the tiny piece of code that put a smiley face on the right side of the border on your page.

    I had an interesting discussion with my brother about Hillary. he said he didn’t like her because she was an “angry and bitter candidate”-rather than react to this I tried probing the source of this, we weren’t able to identify any actual, you know FACTs that would support this-rather, the whole “Hillary is an angry bitter c&*t” is an entirely created media narrative.

  27. This may be a bit OT: The beautiful Hill & Bill pics in the last thread crystallized something for me. It’s that Bill is a supportive, feminist husband. Also, too, is Todd Palin.
    (And not to be cutting, look at the contrast to how BO so far treats MO … whether she gains a more powerful role is yet to be seen).
    I guess I don’t think of it that much because I have daughters, not sons — but clearly raising secure, confident boys who can accept women as partners and not threats is vital.

  28. janicen, on November 21st, 2008 at 8:56 am Said:

    Reg, I have to disagree. I think she’s gorgeous. Even moreso in person than on TV. My husband thinks so too, so at least one man thinks she hot!

    ***********

    that is what I experienced during the campaign. I didn’t think that Hillary was particularly attractive. But the more I saw of her, especially in person, the more I saw her beauty. Other people experienced this too.

    I was wearing a button with the Hillary in the rain picture on it. My neighbor, Jim, looked at it and said,” Who’s that?” when I told him he said, “Well they must have done something to the picture, she’s not that pretty.”

  29. purplefinn, great quotes!

    off to work, but not without saying that the deck is stacked either way.

    If you’re beautiful, the Palin blow-up doll.

    If you’re powerful, the nutcrackers.

    If you’re both (in the case of both women) heads explode, and dummies are hanged.

  30. Hillary was too cold, Palin was too hot. Is there a woman who’s just right? Let us not hold our collective breaths.

  31. purplefinn, since you mentioned Title IX, I want to stray a little OT to mention the undermining of Title IX that’s going on in schools today. We just moved from the Seattle area to the Richmond, VA area this past summer. My daughter has been in both school systems. In both systems, PE classes are now co-ed. When the change was made in the Seattle area, the kids were told it was because of Title IX. In both school systems, the girls have suffered because of the change. The boys physically dominate during team sports and the girls tend to shrink to the sidelines, therefore, they are getting less physical activity and, when they insist on participating (as my daughter does) they are often the subject of ridicule.

    I think educators are deliberately interpreting Title IX in such a way as to undermine the benefit to women.

    Just my two cents.

  32. Y’all know I’m in thrall with Hillary but a lot of people who don’t usually look at her thought of her as unattractive at first. I admit to being one of those people who never looked at her really before she ran. Then, I did and I was knocked out. She’s sill my screensaver on both of my computers. She has incredible physical beauty but I didn’t know that when I started taking her side.

  33. DYB, on November 21st, 2008 at 9:01 am Said:

    Hillary was too cold, Palin was too hot. Is there a woman who’s just right? Let us not hold our collective breaths.
    **********

    RD: “Katherin Sebelius? She’s as washed out and flavorless as a politician can be.”

    Sounds like lukewarm won’t do it either. Maybe it’s not about temperature after all – scary lady parts?

  34. I don’t have any answers, but I feel it is of the utmost importance that we support the principle of women’s self-determination, even if we don’t like the choices an individual woman makes.

    What Gloria Steinem did this year, saying that to be a feminist you must believe certain things – is tantamount to fundamentalism. Only the elect are pure. Total betrayal of principle. Total estrangement from principle.

    I think there’s a deeply myopic vanity running through the entire discourse this year. Almost everyone I know who voted O did so for pure symbolism and ‘feel-good’ reasons. That’s vanity. The reason that nobody cared about his incoherent policies and crazy proposals (bankrupt the coal industry? what?) is because none of that had anything to do with the reasons they voted. So perhaps it is meet that the culture of vanity and self-regard elects this narcissist. It’s not just the adulation they reflect at him, but the exalted images of themselves as elite that he reflects back at them. Save me from these damn idiots. -oops – /rant

  35. I’ve always thought of Hillary as polished and attractive — but during the campaign I saw some photos of her when she was young — the frizzy hair and big glasses — I just fell in love. So adorably geeky looking in the old days. So real.

  36. That writer had it a bit right, I think. As politiician’s can’t ever be right. They can’t ever be just right either. Hillary and Sarah were both too pretty and too capable and too smart. Neither were half-hearted or shifted or lackluster. They were everything and more than successful male politicians are expected to be.

    (Aside: I showed someone from my grad class a picture of Hillary back in March. I told him she was 60. He was like no f-ing way. That woman ages like a little black dress–never going out of style.)

  37. Hillary is beautiful from the inside out. At the beginning of the election, I thought she was attractive, but the more I saw of her, I saw her strength shining through. She may not be beautiful in the way Sarah Palin his, but Hillary Clinton exudes a radiance and strength that I am not sure can ever be matched, IMHO>

  38. Regency, on November 21st, 2008 at 9:04 am Said:

    *********

    Yes. Getting to know Hillary was a wonderful experience for so many of us. And no one doubts your admiration! Interesting – my Republican mother (94) has always liked Hillary and was all primed to vote for her. She could see through the media smokescreen.

  39. VM: I’ve actuall seen a younger pic of Hillary before the frzzy hair days. She looked kind of like Angelina Jolie. Big transition from one state to another. Then she went to Washington for the Watergate hearings and she seemed to be balancing being a wholseome knockout with being very serious. (IIRC, that’s when Chris tried to catch her.)

  40. The party could have won easily with Hillary. She inspired confidence, capability, intelligence and intestinal fortitude. This was her year. It was OUR year and it was brutally suppressed by a bunch of fricking neanderthals who refused to evolve.

    Wahhh…I’ll never “get over it.” This was definitely her time. They don’t care. That kind of “historic” breakthrough doesn’t interest them.

  41. That latest HRC news bubbling up this a.m.:

    WASHINGTON: Democratic leaders in the Senate are prepared to give Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton a still-undefined leadership role there if she does not become Barack Obama’s secretary of state, Democratic officials close to the situation said.

    The discussions about an enhanced position for Clinton are factoring into her deliberations over joining the cabinet, the officials said Thursday. Clinton, the junior senator from New York, is wrestling with whether to become the nation’s top diplomat or to remain in a chamber where lack of seniority limits her influence.

    Clinton asked to join the Senate Democratic leadership after the Nov. 4 election, and party leaders began trying to figure out a way to accommodate her without dislodging any of the current leaders, Democratic officials said.

    But driving her consideration, friends said, is a sense of disenchantment with the Senate, where despite her stature she remains low in the ranks of seniority that governs the body. She was particularly upset, they said, at the reception she felt she received when she returned from the campaign after collecting 18 million votes and almost becoming the first woman nominated for president by a major party.

    Reid wants to come up with some sort of leadership position to recognize Clinton’s standing as one of the party’s most popular figures, and aides said he was confident that he could arrive at something with sufficient muscle to appeal to her.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/21/news/transition.php

    But also:

    WASHINGTON (AP) – President-elect Barack Obama plans to nominate Hillary Rodham Clinton as secretary of state after Thanksgiving, a new milestone for the former first lady and a convergence of two political forces who fought hard for the presidency.

    One week after the former primary rivals met secretly to discuss the idea of Clinton becoming the nation’s top diplomat, an Obama adviser said Thursday that the two sides were moving quickly toward making it a reality, barring any unforeseen problems.

    Clinton has been mulling the post for several days, but the comments from the transition aides suggested that Obama’s team does not feel she is inclined to turn it down.

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081121/D94J7UM01.html

  42. TRK: Agreed. The tougher she got, the more she seemed to glow and be energized. She was up for anything. It was amazing. I want her in charge to this day. She doesn’t wanna just eat her wafffles. She gets up in the morning. Gets her hair did. Puts on her makeup. Buttons up her pantsuit and face the day with nothing more than a silk scarf and these wits to get her through.

  43. janicen, 9:03 am Said:

    “I think educators are deliberately interpreting Title IX in such a way as to undermine the benefit to women.”
    *********

    I am sorry to hear that. It’s so not with the spirit of the law. I fear that as our recession deepens, schools will cut more and more programs and extracurricular activities. I expect football to go last.

  44. Regency, I wish I’d seen that pic.
    What do you mean by ” that’s when Chris tried to catch her.”?

  45. Regency, you’re such a poet!

  46. I think there’s a deeply myopic vanity running through the entire discourse this year. Almost everyone I know who voted O did so for pure symbolism and ‘feel-good’ reasons. That’s vanity….So perhaps it is meet that the culture of vanity and self-regard elects this narcissist. It’s not just the adulation they reflect at him, but the exalted images of themselves as elite that he reflects back at them.

    Excellent point perries. I met one older guy who practically patted me on the head like a “little girl” when I told him I supported HRC. He said his wife did too, and “you girls go talk.” The last thing he said was, “Did you know that the most educated people support BO?” He was SO very proud of himself for being a part of that special special group.

  47. I tried to post something long as an HRC update, and it went into moderation. Too long? OT? Post again?

  48. I wrote about this a long time ago- It was clear to me then that the DNC- the media and even women themselves were not ready to let other women have the fighest office.

    The bulk of pieces I wrote for weeks after Palin came on the scene were dedicated to the very subject – that perhaps we had not gotten there at all.

    My piece women against women laid that out clearly- — Ms. Coco and others are a little late figuring this out now!

    Black women clearly clearly have no problem being enslaved as long as they are not enslaved as black women.

    R’s can’t vote for a D and D’s can’t vote for an R . Wives still reflect their husbands wishes and some still do what the church tells them and finally some are easily gullible to some ads.

    What we need is a true sisterhood- Not any of the old sold out groups or the newly hatched left leaning Women Count – but hopefully that will be embodied in ‘The New Agenda’ and in passing the ERA.

    Tune in Mon. 8 PM Eastern – Do not miss my guest Idella Moore- who has worked tirelessly to educate women on why we need the ERA and how close we are to getting it.

    FreeUsNowPassERA Radio Mondays 8pm est
    Link is – http://www.blogtalkradio.com/FreeMeNow
    Call-in Number: (347) 838-8011

  49. VM: Chris Matthews. That’s when he tried to get her to go out with him. He failed.

  50. I watched a clip of Dee Dee Myers talking about women in politics, and she cited a study in which musicians were auditioned behind a screen of orchestras. FIVE TIMES MORE women were hired when the auditions were done behind a screen–out of sight.

  51. Fif: It might be in her book, “Why Women Should Rule the World.” I bougth that for mom for her birthday. I’ll check and see.

  52. If we look closely at the races where women gained, many had to do a lot of work for support. The DNC gave them practically no help.

    Re: the no-no BC topic: as I see it the real problem we should FACE UP TO is that a district court declared that no individual voter had standing to sue to enforce the provision of the Constitution that forbids foreign born people from being president. I am more concerned about the fact that the court keeps denying to standing to see electoral fairness except when it wants to select a president as in 2000.

  53. for orchestras (not of)

  54. I’m trying again:

    WASHINGTON: Democratic leaders in the Senate are prepared to give Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton a still-undefined leadership role there if she does not become Barack Obama’s secretary of state, Democratic officials close to the situation said.

    The discussions about an enhanced position for Clinton are factoring into her deliberations over joining the cabinet, the officials said Thursday. Clinton, the junior senator from New York, is wrestling with whether to become the nation’s top diplomat or to remain in a chamber where lack of seniority limits her influence.

    Clinton asked to join the Senate Democratic leadership after the Nov. 4 election, and party leaders began trying to figure out a way to accommodate her without dislodging any of the current leaders, Democratic officials said.

    But driving her consideration, friends said, is a sense of disenchantment with the Senate, where despite her stature she remains low in the ranks of seniority that governs the body. She was particularly upset, they said, at the reception she felt she received when she returned from the campaign after collecting 18 million votes and almost becoming the first woman nominated for president by a major party.

    Reid wants to come up with some sort of leadership position to recognize Clinton’s standing as one of the party’s most popular figures, and aides said he was confident that he could arrive at something with sufficient muscle to appeal to her.

    http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/11/21/news/transition.php

  55. Someone posted that, Fif, last night I believe.

  56. I’m curious why anyone would go to all the trouble of trying to keep Hill happy in the Senate if everyone thinks it’s best she should go to the cabinet. Interesting.

    Except, not really. I’m bored now. Someone make a decision!

  57. fif, 9:23 am Said:

    “Excellent point perries. I met one older guy who practically patted me on the head like a “little girl” when I told him I supported HRC. He said his wife did too, and “you girls go talk.” The last thing he said was, “Did you know that the most educated people support BO?” He was SO very proud of himself for being a part of that special special group.
    ******************

    That reminds me of miq2xu’s post:

    “Newsweek has published the first chapter of “Barack Obama: How He Did It“ which is a multi-part series explaining how an empty-suit got elected to the most powerful job in the world.

    The article begins with:

    Barack Obama had a gift, and he knew it. He had a way of making very smart, very accomplished people feel virtuous just by wanting to help Barack Obama.”

  58. Kerry wants to be SoS. If Hillary stays in the Senate, he gets his wish. Or so they say.

    Obama said he wouldn’t announce cabinet appointments until after Thanksgiving. So far, none of the names floating around have been formally announced. I think they’ll probably stick to their schedule.

    Personally, I think he needs to get moving on an economic team.

  59. freemenow, at 9:25 am Said:

    Well said!

  60. But also:

    WASHINGTON (AP) – President-elect Barack Obama plans to nominate Hillary Rodham Clinton as secretary of state after Thanksgiving, a new milestone for the former first lady and a convergence of two political forces who fought hard for the presidency.

    One week after the former primary rivals met secretly to discuss the idea of Clinton becoming the nation’s top diplomat, an Obama adviser said Thursday that the two sides were moving quickly toward making it a reality, barring any unforeseen problems.

    Clinton has been mulling the post for several days, but the comments from the transition aides suggested that Obama’s team does not feel she is inclined to turn it down.

    http://apnews.myway.com/article/20081121/D94J7UM01.html

  61. Why would they need to “create” a position for Hillary?

    What would it be, something like “Women’s Auxillary Leader?”

    Are they gonna give her authority by putting her in charge of getting coffee and cigars for the penisfolk?

  62. Barack Obama had a gift, and he knew it. He had a way of making very smart, very accomplished people feel virtuous just by wanting to help Barack Obama.

    And thus it is proven: “very smart, very accomplished people” can have their heads up their a$$ just like anyone else.

  63. oh, I’m behind the curve. I love that HRC is in demand–even if it is too little too late.

  64. They may be finding resistance for Treasury. Who wants to be linked historically to the coming mess.

    Kerry seems like the Dimocratic fave for SoS but everyone with brain knows it should be Hildawg.

  65. fif, thanks for posting that piece. I hadn’t seen it.

  66. you love HRC, you’re never behind the curve.

  67. angie: my sister works at MIT, and she attended a diversity seminar yesterday with people from around the country. She said there were people of the highest levels of academia gushing about how “smart and transformational and wonderful” BO is, and he’s going to chaaange the world. There is something very troubling about the suspension of analytical thought and the willingness to follow a crowd. It’s all about feel-good fantasy, and it leads to bad decisions and dangerous consequences.

  68. Regency: you’re such a doll–my fellow HRC lover.

  69. fif, on November 21st, 2008 at 9:44 am Said:

    It’s all about feel-good fantasy, and it leads to bad decisions and dangerous consequences.

    **************

    Nutshell.

  70. angienc, on November 21st, 2008 at 9:40 am Said:

    Barack Obama had a gift, and he knew it. He had a way of making very smart, very accomplished people feel virtuous just by wanting to help Barack Obama.

    And thus it is proven: “very smart, very accomplished people” can have their heads up their a$$ just like anyone else.
    _________________________________________________
    pffftttt!
    and thus, it is proven that sometimes very smart, very accomplished people think they are much smarter than they actually are!!

  71. Fif: Have you heard that “educated” people are more easily convinced or “deceived” than “non-educated” people? It stands to reason.

    *hillary hi-five* I’m porcelain, y’know.

  72. Reg: you do know that Kerry was tapped to be Chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee right? He’s out as SOS. It’s down to Hill & Judas. I cringe at the thought of Richardson, such a wishy-washy pandering fool, facing down Russia or Iran. That worries me. We need someone very strong and perceptive in that role.

  73. Now that I’ve had my daily dose of abuse, I agree that they have to go. But how can we get them gone? The female gender traitors, imho, are far worse than the male pigs like Tweety. Ladies, it’s up to you to deal with them– I can’t lay a glove on them. But shitheads like Chris Matthews and his ilk I can at least swear at and not watch their crap nor but their sponsors products. The women… I dunno. And yes, when in doubt, I always vote “woman”; we need a 51% solution, not less. We need female majorities in politics, not a “representative” sampling.

  74. Fif: You know, I did know that. Eh, Judas…that would complete the circle of Epic!Fail that is the Obama administration. I hope he has a 3rd choice.

  75. RD: I’m literally about to board a plane back home after a business trip. So very glad I read this post – this is the beginning of how to think about what is going on at all levels with regard to the absence of women leaders.

    They are calling me to the plane…

    But may I put in a plug for all of us to think about how to pressure the administration to create a President’s Commission on Women in the first 100 Days – and a new thought: same sort of demand should be put to Democratic Party –

    Must board or be forever left in freezing lands of the midwest.

  76. EoF: There he goes again.

  77. Does anyone here think that Hillary could have been President if she would “play the game”. pols is pols? If she dropped her principles? Does anyone think the media would back a highly principled candidate? We sure know BZero is not. Does anyone here think the media was fair and balanced with Bill Clinton? Can any of us forget the constant 24 hour Clinton hate of a sitting president with 65% approval rate at the end of his 8 years……

    I’m just curious. The media selected Bush. Bush’s reign has been nothing if not criminal – gutting of our constitution, DOJ – illegal war, outing of a CIA agent – long list of crimes. The next CRIMINAL President is set to steal this country blind and he is another selected by the media. I have always said/thought I was for human rights – all humans. I have been told I was a feminist because I stood up for myself and for others and I am female. I never accepted being limited to what others perceived me as – just on looks and being female.

    I was cruising through the so called news channels and caught a snippet of a Valarie Jarrett waxing poetically on BZero. I almost gagged before exiting. I had no idea who she was. I do now. Check out Bio.com for the latest from the Canandian Press if you don’t know who she is. There is nothing in our press to google that I could find. She has a long history with both O’s, Chicago Daily machine and she is a slumlord. There is a female who will go far – dunnyaknow. There are many examples of her – she is just new to me since I really do not do “media” anymore and no one is “reporting” her history in this country.

    My point is, no one with principles is going to get in position of power – rather they be male or female as long as we have the present media and election laws.
    My soul is bleeding from what my former party did to Hillary and what happened to Palin but I think there is a deeper reason and that is the parasitic media and politicians controlled by the predatory corporate investors. Sorry this is so long – I need to learn brevity.

  78. The “boys” at msnbc were at it again this morning … making fun of Sarah Palin because when she went to a turkey farm to to do her gubanatorial pardon and give one turkey its grace …
    Sarah happend to be standing in front the area where turkeys were killed., and she didnt show the “proper feminine squeamishness ” I am guess was the point ….and the “boys”( including Mika the suck up ) for some reason , thought this was hilarious .
    None of them professed to being vegetarians… I wonder how they think their food makes to the grocery store ; much less their table .

  79. fif — the problem with “very smart” people is that they’ve been told for so long how “very smart” they are that they think they are smarter then they are — they are also more wary of going against the “other very smart” people they know — that is, they are MORE LIKELY to be leminglings because they are afraid to lose their “very smart” status. Its the people who don’t much give a damn what others think of their intelligence that are more likely to go against the crowd.

  80. NYT and Wapo say this morning that Obama transition spokesperson called reporters Thurs night to say that Hillary appt is on track and it will be announced after Thanksgiving. Basically in Hill’s court now. NYT says Hill is going back and forth and she doesn’t feel happy with the reception she is getting from Senate Dems.

    I have a feeling that she will take SOS and the final negotiations may be abt who is going to be her deputy SOS and so on. Obama is talking with nato commander/ex-marine general JAmes Jones for SOS
    (in case Hill turns down) or Nat sec adv.

    In all this, Kerry’s name doesn’t come up at all. I don’t think he was actually on obama’s list.

  81. I just caught up on the early thread with the HRC pix. I loved that! Feeling all warm and fuzzy, if a bit forlorn now.

    Last night I caught “Ugly Betty,” and America Ferrar did a mock magazine cover of strong women for a competition. She included a big picture of HRC on the front–an inside nod to HRC supporters.

  82. fif, on November 21st, 2008 at 9:23 am Said:

    Excellent point perries. I met one older guy who practically patted me on the head like a “little girl” when I told him I supported HRC. He said his wife did too, and “you girls go talk.” The last thing he said was, “Did you know that the most educated people support BO?” He was SO very proud of himself for being a part of that special special group.

    fif – exactly – case in point. The smug, the self-regard, the vanity. They live in a dream bubble of their own self-love.

  83. Fif: I knew America still adored our girl.

  84. If BO has seemingly better options for State, why not pass over HRC and go to them? I don’t get the hamfistedness about Hillary.

  85. swan: I am so damn tired of the gleeful, smug, sanctimonious Palin mocking. I was on a train from NYC last week, and heard some guy across the aisle make a Palin joke to two women, and they all laughed. It goes with the vanity comments above: it’s the new trendy, “I’m so with it” dinner party banter: isn’t it a riot how stupid Palin is? It infuriates me that the media so successfully framed and spoon fed this caricature to the public and they ate it whole.

  86. Please – don’t read the comments for the Cocco article. They will make your head explode!

  87. Very smart people are absolutely not smart in every area…. there is a well known phenom of MDS not having social skills because they have never developend them…
    people who are smart in one area even geniuses , can be extremely deficient in other areas . They can still have all kinds of issues , mother /father issues, abuse issues, relationship issues , covert sibling rivalry can devastate a persons ability to interact well with others….. book smart does not equal experience ..
    ever see someone try to lear to swim from a book ?? at some point someone has to get in the water 😉

  88. But how? How do we do this?

    Reasons people didn’t for the two accomplished, qualified women:

    Palin: She was too beautiful, women said she was a bimbo. She has a down-home way of speaking, people think this indicates less intelligence (being Southern, I really get this one). Not experienced enough (so they said). She is an unknown.

    Hillary: Attractive, but not to the point of intimidation. Intelligent to the point of intimidation. Powerful, she is an ex-first lady. Too much experience. Too much of a Washington insider.

    So we have opposites almost and neither one was good enough. It almost seems that with a woman you are damned if you do and damned if you don’t. So how does a woman win?

  89. fif
    lets send them a dead fish or even better , a live turkey , I am sick of them too they are beyond disgusting

  90. swanspirit:

    You mean those turkeys didn’t die of natural causes?

    Next you’ll tell me that tuna doesn’t come from a can!

  91. Swanie — the boys would die from laughter if they’d met my great-grandmother — she was able to wring a chicken’s neck with one hand. HILARIOUS! /s

  92. Yes actually they did, LOL they naturally had their heads cut off … and those same people ..speaking of cans , i wonder what they think is in those cute little cans of cat and dog food they feed their kitties and pups… Where did those turkey heads go ??

    Where does Jello come from ?? turkey and chicken feet?? wow no kiddin

  93. Interesting read:
    Emotional Intelligence: Why It Can Matter More Than IQ
    Daniel Goleman

  94. TRK – but remember this year both of these women were up against the huge money, no character, ACORN operatives, free media support juggernaut of the Obama campaign.

    Under different circumstances would it have been this extreme?

    Sad thing about Palin is that her record shows her to be an effective governor and one with integrity (not forcing personal values on the people, for example) and the interests of constituents genuinely at heart. People don’t want to see it.

    You know, I resent having to suffer for the next 4 (to who knows how long) years thanks to the stupidity, vanity and assorted character flaws of others. God give me fortitude.

  95. Perries: If women make up 52% of the population, then it is women that can see to it that we get the 30% needed, but how do we get them past the pettiness, that you and I both know women have a tendency to exhibit? We expected it from the men, but the women that howled over Hillary and Palin astonished us.

  96. Yes, ladies, we have actually *lost* ground.-RD
    ***

    Yes, and we have Pelosi, Dean, Donna Brazile, Axelrod and Barrack Obama and Michelle Obama too to thank for setting ‘wimin folk’ back YEARS. Progressives means to only look out for your interests and your pocket book NOW!

    NO DRAMA OBAMA…is a myth. There is no drama, just because NO ONE WANTS TO LOOK (they are all in the tank…) and THE PRESS DIED IN 2008!

  97. Ahhh the EQ absolutely!!! … very interesting stuff , The Eq is a very powerful and not well enough known parameter for behavior.
    For instance , the NATURAL response to illness or injury is a temporary regression to younger and possibly even childhood coping mechanisms . So for children , when they get sick they will regress its perfectly natural , and also for adults > it is to be expected , and the degree to which someone regresses sometimes in proportion to the degree of illness or injury . Knowing this makes treating people who are ill much easier, and helps them get thru with much more ease .
    And there is also a small but growing branch of psychology ( I may have said this before ) that puts forward the ideas that because people are out of touch with the nature the earth and its cycles , we suffer from differing degrees of psychological damage .

  98. Reading all the comment here today I realised just how backward America is when it comes to women.
    Isreal a small country always under attack had the fortitude to have Golda Meir.
    India a very troubled country had Mrs ghandi.
    In America life – liberty – and the persuit of happiness is not for women.
    This country became great due in part to a great number of women but is too backward to admit it.
    I think Golda Mier would have told the traiterous women who are afraid to stand up for themselves and other women to “go to hell”

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  99. I hear you TRK, but I don’t know. I mean, I value the golden rule, but if other people don’t care and mock that kind of thing and think whatever they can get away with or whatever goes their way is what is ‘good’ – then how can you reach people like that? Is it just that they don’t see, or is it that they do not agree because their morals come down to “Life is right when I’ve got mine.”

  100. Here’s the great turkey massacre video:

    http://myiq2xu.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/where-food-comes-from/

    WARNING: NOT SAFE FOR CITY FOLK

  101. angienc, on November 21st, 2008 at 10:15 am Said:
    Swanie — the boys would die from laughter if they’d met my great-grandmother — she was able to wring a chicken’s neck with one hand. HILARIOUS! /s

    My grandmother took me by the hand when I was very small child to the market. It was in the inner city in Baltimore at the time on Lombard Street .. and you picked a live chicken , and they cut off it s head , and plucked it for you on the spot ! I was not “traumatised” because it was all so natural and matter of fact and not horrible to know where your food came from . Gratitude and grace before dinner have the same meaning as the native Americans have when the bless their kills , but now i think its perfunctory ….and lacks meaning in our lives , and we lose the value of taking a life so that we can eat.

  102. What will it take for the younger women who didn’t have to fight for everything the older feminists did to get angry and realize their interests are not being served?
    Women need a reason to band together and the younger ones just don’t seem to get it.
    How far backwards will things have to go for them to get pissed?

  103. Did you all see that HRC has a new DVD out to reduce her debt? There is a quick preview at http://hillaryclinton.com/, but it immediately brings back the power and drama of the primaries. I still can’t believe it…

    &#(*$ makes me angry all over again. Her campaign’s screw ups (how could they not plan past Super Tuesday?!), BO, the DNC, the media. Especially now, with the economy teetering, she would have been spectacular. WHERE is Obama–going to the gym every day? With the auto industry in crisis right now, you just know she would have been front and center with a 10 point plan, pressuring the Bush Administration and charting a new course daily. Instead, we get Tom Daschle & such.

  104. What will it take for women to realize that their own behavior is destroying the hopes of their daughters and granddaughters?

  105. Poor Hilary. She expected to be recognized for her incredible achievements. She thought she could win fair and square when the game was rigged against her. She doesn’t know how to do anything but work twice as hard, be twice as excellent, and smile while they’re stabbing you in the back. She is a direct person who has earned every scrap of power and influence she has.

    If only she had Barack Obama’s “gift,” she’d be appointing her Cabinet right now.

    But you know what that gift is? He’s emotionally manipulative. He is skilled at manipulating white guilt. It’s as simple as that.

  106. Hm, unbelievable. I have a post in moderation – there are no r words, no BC, reference, no links – we moderate for boredom now? If there is anyone here to check, let me know what I did wrong.

  107. I got swept to moderation for two posts this a.m. too Boo. It’s a quirky thing sometimes.

  108. Just an odd thought.

    One of the main characteristics that is often used to tout an upcoming politician is that he is claimed to be “charismatic”.

    Now I say “he” here quite deliberately. I do it because I can’t think of a single case in which a woman politician has ever been called “charismatic” by our media or in our culture.

    My guess is that “charismatic” is a term reserved in our culture for those whose presence inspires admiration and some awe across a wide swath of people. That is not, it seems, a natural response toward any woman for a lot of people in our culture — and I’m sure it’s essentially never a natural response for those most in the business of broadcasting the adjective “charismatic”: the middle aged guys who run the media and the government.

  109. madamab

    Do Obama and the Dem imposters think the HRC/SOS appointment is going to smooth it all over?
    If they think they are throwing a bone to the PUMA’s they can shove it.
    I don’t think anyone will quickly forgive and forget that the nomination was stolen from her.
    I support her accepting the position but for me the fact that she
    was not given the top job doesn’t change.
    I’ve already had people say to me, “are you happy now?”
    fuck no, I am not.

  110. Catarina: The young women think ERA has passed, ask them. They are the low information voters. They don’t even think about equality. Most of them ware raised with a mom who worked and took care of the house, so it is basically a non-issue for them.

  111. frankly
    that is an interesting and important observation. will be chewing on that for a while..

  112. TRK
    it’s true-they take so much for granted!
    I’m hoping the groups that are forming post-election will pound them with facts.
    They need to know that compared to other countries women are grossly underrepresented. They need to know they are underpaid, discriminated against, and even victimized.
    They need to be aware before the next election that they are voting against their own interests.

  113. I would love for someone to do a poll on college campuses and high schools to see just how informed todays young women are regarding women’s rights.

  114. catarina,

    Yeah, I think the point about the restricted use of “charismatic” is revealing because to regard someone as “charismatic”, one has to accept on a basic emotional level that this person has something special to offer in terms of leadership and presence that is really beyond one’s own capacities. One is, emotionally, required to put this person on some kind of higher plane than oneself; that’s what makes the “charismatic” effect work.

    I don’t think the middle aged men running things ever have that reaction to a woman. Perhaps, grudgingly, they will acknowledge her competence when it really can’t be denied. But to place her on a higher plane as a person? Not going to happen.

  115. TheRealKim, on November 21st, 2008 at 10:46 am Said:
    I would love for someone to do a poll on college campuses and high schools to see just how informed todays young women are regarding women’s rights.

    Perhaps that is something we PUMAS need to do kim I would LOVE to do that !!

  116. Has anyone worried about why BHO wants in off flying around in a plane? larkatdawn, this morning – threw me a curve – that sent shivers up and down my spine- God help us if he is this sinister.

    larkatdawn, wrote: “As I thought of Hillary flying the world as SOS, Ron Brown came to mind.”

  117. Yes, Hillary is beautiful, and she’s always been beautiful. Now that she is older, she is even more beautiful because she has life-experience in addition to her intelligence (that was alwyas there).

    But look at the myriad of makeovers she’s goine through by “professionals” since Bill became a public figure. When you look at pictures of Hillary when Bill first started, they changed her every which way to make her “fit” some image that people have about women. But look again at pictures of Bill throughout the years. Other than looking a little older, he’s basically looks the same.

  118. If we do not stand up for ourselves after this discusting display of sexism in this election cycle , WHEN WILL WE?
    No woman should ever have to go thru what Senator Clinton and Governor Palin went thru in the so called land of the free.

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM, AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  119. Education of women as to their true postition in the scheme of things is terribly important. Young women don’t think it affects them, and older women think they need to stay in their place.

    We talk about the fact that there are no Hillarys on the horizon, but what if there were? Do you think an intelligent woman would even want to go through what she did? To raise that much money, get that many votes, and then end up a shill for a loser like BO? Who would do that to themselves?

    I have asked this repeatedly, with no answers forthcoming, but again, I ask, does anyone out there see an upside to Hllary signing on as SOS? She gives up her fight for issues in the Senate, does only what Bo instructs, and seerves only as long as BO wants her to. If she leaves the Senate, and he kicks her loose in six months, she has lost her power base, lost her ability to reach the American public on a regular basis, and the chances of getting her Senate seat back, are slim to none.

    Now, we are discussing the future of women in power in this country, and what happened to two strong female politicians who dared to try for higher office this year, but staring us right in the face is the squandering of a tremendous pwer asset for women, Hillary Clinton, and no one is making a fuss.

    We should all be reaching out to Hillary asking her not to do this. Not because of what Bo did to her in the primaries, or because of the sleaze he is, but because it puts her ability to help all Americans at risk.

  120. frankly
    “charismatic” women are sex objects!
    the men running things want to fuck them-they as much as said so about Palin
    we are so screwed.

  121. Upthread some one mentioned feeling like a man was patting her on the head and pushing her along when she said she supported Sen. Clinton. This sort of sh!t drives me insane. All the times, that I have brought up current events, public affairs, politics and the election, men have been almost condescending. I felt like they were thinking, “see the pretty little lady bothering herself with serious stuff like that, now scoot along and don’t worry your pretty little head.” I wanted to perform a bobbitt each and every damn time. And people wonder why I just stay at home.

  122. Catarina-You are right. Women are not referred to as charismatic, they are called kittens, alluring, beguiling and all of those references have sexual innuendo attached.

  123. helenk, on November 21st, 2008 at 10:54 am Said:
    If we do not stand up for ourselves after this discusting display of sexism in this election cycle , WHEN WILL WE?
    No woman should ever have to go thru what Senator Clinton and Governor Palin went thru in the so called land of the free.
    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM, AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS
    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE
    ***

    YEA! I am mad as @@l today as ever and I won’t let one dime go to the Un-Democratic party again until they fess up and admit that it was wrong to USE MISOGYNY/SEXISM to win. The won, but ‘wimin folk’ LOST MORE AND IN TIME SOME OF THE YOUNGER WOMEN WILL BEGIN TO SEE IT IN OUR SOCIETY UNABASHED. Once it is unleashed it is hard to get a grasp of it and control it.

    Women have been set back years…

    I won’t partake in Palin bashing. Senator Hillary Clinton was bashed and in many ways continues today. This morning I heard, “Why would Obama want the Clinton Drama, he is no Drama Obama”. Gee, maybe if they got off their tuckuses and actually did some reporting they could see that there is truck loads of ‘Drama’ but they refuse to look at it for fear of being called a ‘racist’. The media has learned a lesson and that is that its OK, even sanctioned to be misogynist/sexist, just look at craz-O Keith Olbermann’s 30 million THANK YOU CONTRACT by the MISOGYNY MSM.

    Ladies we have lost ground…

  124. Regency, on November 21st, 2008 at 10:08 am Said:
    If BO has seemingly better options for State, why not pass over HRC and go to them? I don’t get the hamfistedness about Hillary.
    It’s the scary womanpart (as myiq would say) that have them all twisted – they know they did something “bad” and are trying to “fix it” HAH! 👿
    I just got a call from the Civil Liberties Union – before she even started I asked where the heck they were during the election – she stuttered a bit and said she didn’t know what I was talking about – I calmly explained – then thanked her for calling and hung up the phone.

  125. And when the line of decency is crossed it’s accepted!

    Men considered attractive and charismatic are put on mag covers and called “man of the year”

    Attractive and charismatic women, like Palin have their images used in porn flicks, made into blow-up sex dolls, are photo-shopped and circulated in viral emails in compromising positions, etc.

    more double standard. where is the outrage?

  126. Good grief, I lost my avatar and now I keep landing in moderation – I didn’t use any “bad” words -what’s going on?

  127. Um, the Secretary of State position possibly being given to Hillary does not change history. I can’t imagine any PUMAs thinking otherwise.

    We will not forget.

  128. frankly — hold up — I’ve been described as charismatic my whole life — of course, only by my mommy, but still! 🙂

  129. Catarina – As a group, powerful men still cannot deal with women who charm them without flirting or resorting to sexual manipulation. They don’t know how to classify these women. Hillary is one, Sarah is another. They may be attractive, but that is not why they are successful.

    These men are threatened by women like that. So, they do their best to smack these women down and keep them out of power.

    As Tucker Carlson says, Hillary makes certain types of men want to cross their legs to protect their penises. It’s a symbolic castration to them, because the reason for their domination of society is being diminished.

  130. madamab

    it was not a puma who asked me if I was “happy now”

    it was a hillary supporter who got me interested in her candidacy last year and then flipped right to Obama even though he knew what went on in the primary.

    very disappointing and we are barely speaking to each other. Honestly, I’d like to kick him right in the shin.

    When I was distributing McCain/Palin gear he told me he couldn’t believe I was voting Repub and called me a traitor!

    Stupid sonofabitch.. “are you happy now” indeed!
    Some people are just not worth the time..

  131. Catarina-We allow it. We do, we cannot say otherwise. We hold ourselves to a different standard here, but frankly why didn’t we respond. SUre , we do BO in grecian robes, but we never really fight back.

  132. crap
    are men just a lost cause then?

  133. catarina:

    Harry Burns: You realize of course that we could never be friends.
    Sally Albright: Why not?
    Harry Burns: What I’m saying is – and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form – is that men and women can’t be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.
    Sally Albright: That’s not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.
    Harry Burns: No you don’t.
    Sally Albright: Yes I do.
    Harry Burns: No you don’t.
    Sally Albright: Yes I do.
    Harry Burns: You only think you do.
    Sally Albright: You say I’m having sex with these men without my knowledge?
    Harry Burns: No, what I’m saying is they all WANT to have sex with you.
    Sally Albright: They do not.
    Harry Burns: Do too.
    Sally Albright: They do not.
    Harry Burns: Do too.
    Sally Albright: How do you know?
    Harry Burns: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.
    Sally Albright: So, you’re saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?
    Harry Burns: No. You pretty much want to nail ’em too.
    Sally Albright: What if THEY don’t want to have sex with YOU?
    Harry Burns: Doesn’t matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.
    Sally Albright: Well, I guess we’re not going to be friends then.
    Harry Burns: I guess not.
    Sally Albright: That’s too bad. You were the only person I knew in New York.

  134. Kim, I’m fighting back-and so are many other women who are horrified at what they just witnessed.
    There are many opportunities that have sprung up post-election and I plan to fit in as many of them as I can.

  135. I refuse to stereotype, but a lot of them are a lost cause. The men here are not, so we know there are still some out there that will fight for our cause. However, they seem to be few and far between.

  136. I still like to use them for sex though.

  137. I am willing to exhaust my savings to make it better for women, but if we have those food strikes, can someone throw me a banana or a slice of bread?

  138. myiq

    *sobbing and banging head against desk*

    http://tinyurl.com/2koqxy

  139. kim, i know you have chips
    are you going to share?

  140. My husband once asked me why women don’t unite against the oppression of women in, for example, muslim countries. Same problem as here – many women are part of the oppression of women. And like my co-workers – the are double agents.

    or maybe it’s the fact that feminists are perceived as these people who go around saying anyone who does not agree with them is “part of the oppression against women”.

    Or (elsewhere in thread) ‘in need of education’.

    Apparently even feminists think women are dumb and bitchy.

    I do not understand why this belief that, while it’s normal for men to engage in competitive behavior, political behavior, pursuit of self-interest, etc., women ought to behave in ways that are “good for other women” – that is, ought to do what is “right” for women, as determined by NOW and without consideration for individual, personal cost-benefit trade-offs.

    If you framed your goal in positive, not negative terms, what would the end goal look like? Because negativity begets negativity. Personally I interpret this past election as at least partly due to accumulated backlash generated by arguments taken verbatim from Rev. Wright’s playbook, only swap “European” for “patriarchy” and “white” for “male”.

  141. I think we did and do fight back but we don’t have platforms like the media or talk show hosts or any of that. We shout against soundproof glass. There is a really strong high tide flowing right now.

    And it’s about holding power and using power, about strategy, organization and planning. How many of us kicking the cnoversational can around know much about that? Not me – only what I’ve read about and observe and practice on a personal scale in my own life – by not allowing anyone to disrespect me without strong response and/or removing myself and my support from the entire situation – starving the fire.

    Men aren’t a lost cause, nor are women, because we are none of us monolithic. My husband totally gets it and I am sure millions more men get it as well. The women and men who get it – maybe we need to be talking with them and working with them. Demanding to be ‘understood’ by a bunch of people who have no intention of listening because they are having it ‘their way’ – that’s not going to work (look at NOW and NARAL pfft what a bunch of handmaidens).

  142. Yes, I will share my chips.

  143. So again, what do we do?

  144. mm
    not sure I understand what you’re proposing.
    Is it the old “you get more with sugar..” theory?
    I don’t think that will be helpful when it comes to addressing the complacency of the young women who were conned into supporting BO.
    They need to see facts about the status of women.
    Is that negative?

  145. TRK – @ 11:27 am – definitely, but makes you and me unmentionable. The males that operate that way are only doing what comes natural.

    Catarina – thanks for the mention on Daniel Goleman – interesting.

    Shainzona – I had to read the comments sicne you said not too – sheesa, I wonder if the light is blinding them since they just came out of a cave.

  146. mm – you make great , thoughtful points and it is making me examine my assumptions – that’s going to take a while.

  147. Education of women as to their true postition in the scheme of things is terribly important. Young women don’t think it affects them, and older women think they need to stay in their place.

    Most of the younger females I know are aware of the problems. They just don’t have any faith in feminism because it hasn’t done anything real in decades, because they (young people) don’t get input into the agenda, and most especially because they’re not willing to put up with the backlash.

    Feminism does not care how much backlash it generates. It responds to complaints about backlash with mocking (example: backslash-whine: “but what about the boiiiiz?) or snark (example: “a man of quality wouldn’t be threatened by a woman for equality”
    – in other words, you’re just complaining because you’re not a “man of quality”, a nice petty sort of insult, which does nothing constructive; (2)your complaint isn’t real it’s just that you’re “threatened”, implying sexually dysfunctional to boot, also offensive and not constructive, and I am a “woman for equality” – language suggesting possession of the monopoly. I am for equality, you are for not-equality, that makes me right and you wrong….I win! Shuts dialog RIGHT down…..)

    People are rational actors who will pursue their own self-interest. When feminism is examined from that perspective, the problem becomes obvious: feminism is not offering much to an awful lot of women, let alone most men.

    Maybe instead of polling young people on whether they are educated enough, it would be better to listen to their concerns.

  148. Women are too ‘nice’ and will not fight back as they should.

  149. lol boo radly. I read some of the comments yesterday but they made my eyes roll back in my head and blood come from my ears.

  150. …and some women want men to be in charge.

  151. We have economic power. Use it.
    We can teach the young what is acceptable and what is not. Do it
    We can demand respect and act like we deserve it. Do it
    We do not have to tolerate bad behavior. Don’t tolerate it.
    If every women took one step towards being respected we would be respected.
    I am 70 years old. i will not see another women like Hillary Clinton in my lifetime.
    But I want my daughters and granddaughters to be able to vote and elect such a woman.

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM, AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS, BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  152. helen, thank you.

  153. mm – I absolutely agree with your points.

    There is a reason why feminism went out of vogue. It was not appealing to enough people, men or women, and it’s because (IMHO) it lost its focus and goals.

    A movement that has concrete, positive goals will be a lot more appealing than one which has an angry, nasty, morally superior vibe. I saw so many “feminists” attack Sarah Palin this year on the basis of her views on abortion, her prettiness, her alleged lack of intelligence and her middle-class status, that I wanted to vomit.

    I have said this before, but I think we need to take the emotion out of feminism as a movement. Just focus on our goals. My two goals are ratifying the ERA, and achieving a goal of 30% women in our federal government – including a woman President and a Cabinet that has gender parity.

    In my opinion, this approach would be a lot more inclusive than exclusive; and exclusive is something which the “feminists” of today have proven themselves to be. We shouldn’t kid ourselves that their ugliness towards Sarah Palin (and Hillary Clinton) has gone unnoticed by men.

  154. In the Puma prowls, when women were treated badly, we sent letters to the station. The letters should have been sent to the station’s sponsors. We are the consumers, how do you think Kellogs or Dawn Dish Detergent would feel if they received 300 angry letters or emails from women? If there is one thing I know, men may think of us as sex objects, they may think all kinfs of things, but hit them in their wallet and POW, you have their attention.

  155. >People are rational actors who will pursue their own self-interest.

    Uh, no, very often people are irrational actors who act on emotional impulses that barely comprehend. We are hairless apes, just down from the trees, and all too often we act like that.

  156. madamab

    to get women on board with those goals they first have to know why the goals are so important.

    how will you get young girls to support either the 30% solution or the ERA if they don’t even know why they are necessary?

    If women don’t know they will benefit from a movement how do you get them to sign on?

    Providing information about discrimination, equality in the workplace, gender parity in government, etc. is critical.

  157. TRK – In these days of globalization, I’m not sure that’s the way to go.

    I believe womens’ equality will have to be enshrined in our Constitution before the generalized misogyny in our society is recognized as a problem. The Powers That Be will keep denying the problem even exists until that happens.

  158. I had some Puma friends over last night, and we watched Hillary’s speech the night she lost. It was so sad:

  159. You don’t think it is a good idea to hit the sponsors when a newscaster makes a totally misogynistic remark?

  160. catarina – Of course! We are on the same page here.

    🙂

  161. RD, a great post although a sad post. To me, though, let’s never forget that “the fix was in” as others have alluded to here. I choose to believe that things happen for a reason; Hill fought and fought hard. The reward will come.

    Here is a little story from my daughter’s elem. school days. I think it was 2nd grade. The principal at her school, whom we adored, was from another generation. A kind man. Ready to retire. One day, the school had “dress opposite day” – as in girls will dress as boys, and boys will dress as girls. How fun! LOL

    My dtr had long, long hair down past her waist. She wore pants, oxford shirt and a tie. Of course, her hair was so long that she didn’t look like a boy at all. So, we tied up her hair and put a cap on her.

    The boys at the school wore skirts (it was much more funny than girls wearing pants of course ????); they also wore makeup (lipstick) and WIGS (a hat?). It was all in fun.

    As my daughter walked down the halls, a teacher came up to her and told her to remove her hat. Hats are not allowed at school!! Not even on “dress opposite day.” Of course, she dutifully removed her hat and walked around as a boy all day with her long, long hair flowing down her back. In actuality, not looking at all different than any other day except basically for the tie. The boys were NOT told to remove their “wigs” (hats?) – those were allowed.

    When she came home, I was stunned! And, I was mad. I did, afterall, live through the 60’s. I wrote a letter to the principal and voiced my concern about sexism – that it was wrong to have her remove her hat (to hide her long hair and look more like a boy) and not have the boys remove their wigs. He agreed 100%. (Or, was he just saying that to make a parent happy?)

    At any rate, my daughter got the message – stand up for your girl’s rights. I hope it sunk in. It is the small things that make a difference in life. There were many lessons from that day.

  162. You know, I don’t even know what to think or feel anymore. Helpless is the word.

    We don’t have ONE women’s group that supports all women. We need to get away from Democrat / Republican and focus on WOMEN.

    NOW isn’t anything more than an “abortion” group
    Women’s Count reminds me of Emily’s list.
    Emily’s list is another “abortion” group

    WE NEED A MEDIA WATCH GROUP — we need to call women out who are sent to CNN, MCNBC, FOX, etc to degrade women. We need to go after the heads of MEDIA and NOT back down.

  163. TRK – Nope. They are so big now that we can’t hurt them economically unless tens of millions of people boycott them. Calling the station is a better way, IMHO.

  164. Good for you, Sheri!

  165. Why don’t women fight back? I believe it’s because of the “r” word — religion.

    The bible says that women should be subservient. Many women take that BS at face value.

  166. The bible says that women should be subservient. Many women take that BS at face value.

    Yeah, I find that so weird. I think at some level they must want things to be that way???

  167. I still disagree Madama. TV stations get thousands of calls. They don’t really care about losing viewers, they care about losing sponsors. We can’t take down the station, we can hurt the show that allows it. Advertisers know women are the ones with buying power. You really think that if 3 or 4 hundred pissed off women call and say they will boycott Stayfree, and include that they are part of a PAC, they will not even consider it?

    That is almost like admitting defeat, because we cannot take down MSNBC.

  168. Here’s a rundown of the creeps Dean and his “concern” about how women were treated this year…. and thanks to Cocco for some real commentary of substance….”in the pipeline”..More like “down the tubes” thanks to the DNC and the media…and a bunch of complacent younger women voters….

    Howard’s Agony: Seems Like We’ve Been Here Before

    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/2008/11/21/howards-agony-seems-like-weve-been-here-before/

  169. How about a women’s group that focuses on RESPECT for All women?
    Without respect we will get nowhere.
    We need a common goal that all women can understand .
    Simofish
    You are right about the media but the problem extends into everyday life without many realizing it.
    Every woman has to speak out against and refuse to tolerate disrespect every day of their lives.
    Remember to some women are Those People.
    We have to remind them Those People Rule.

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  170. T. @12:10pm – when I recently viewed The Da Vinci Code again, I thought of how the deck was stacked starting back in biblical days. By Males. Makes one tired except, other countries have female leaders – we are a third world
    country in more ways than one.

  171. Sorry, I meant “creep Dean” or “creepy Dean,” whatever you so choose!!! LOL!!

  172. New thread up

  173. The bible was written by men. That explains the treatment of women.
    The expression ” rule of thumb” came about because church law was you can only beat your wife with a stick that is no wider then your thumb.
    Maybe i am wrong but the treatment of women in Islam is the same as it was in the middle ages by the western religions.

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM, AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  174. Boo Radly, on November 21st, 2008 at 12:19 pm Said:
    T. @12:10pm – when I recently viewed The Da Vinci Code again, I thought of how the deck was stacked starting back in biblical days. By Males. Makes one tired except, other countries have female leaders – we are a third world
    country in more ways than one.

    TOTALLY AGREE!
    Our problem today is not enough ‘liberated women,’ those who realize and believe that high intellect is not gender-based; that to be the equal of men means having the ability to think independently and adhere to your individual sense of right or wrong based on your independent analysis–everything that makes one a good human being.

  175. correction – the bible doesn’t say that women should be subservient — people interpret certain passages to imply that, but the bible doesn’t say anything of the sort.

  176. What will it take for the younger women who didn’t have to fight for everything the older feminists did to get angry and realize their interests are not being served?
    Women need a reason to band together and the younger ones just don’t seem to get it.

    Years ago I was a card-carrying member of NOW. I quit because the feminists I saw never did anything I admired. They wrote a lot of letters complaining about this or that. They never enabled any change, just complaining when change didn’t happen, always scolding and judging as if it were for them to decide how the whole world ought to be making life choices and what our concerns and issues ought to be. And engaging in name-calling, blaming, insulting, etc. when women crossed the wrong side of predetermined “identity politics” lines. Which to me looked (and still look) a lot like economic lines.

    It’s been over three decades since Nixon ixnayed the last serious attempt at addressing the day care crisis, and I see no sign that feminism has spent one tiny moment worrying about that. It’s thrown in the pile along with all the other issues that feminism will no doubt get to, once it has established once and for all that we have the right to an abortion….

  177. How about a women’s group that focuses on RESPECT for All women?
    Without respect we will get nowhere.
    We need a common goal that all women can understand .

    I like this.

  178. Angry Puma – you all are stronger than I – I can still remember how excited and proud I was of Hillary. The hope she gave me for our country. It was amazing. To refresh my memory I went back to TL(for the first time in 5 1/2 months) to read my comments. Hillary glowed and inspired me. I wouldn’t be able to view her speeches for a while – I’ve cried too much.

    Then I noted that BTD had a post up titled “Obama Rejects CDS” – jeesh, talk about reaching. I really do sympathize with you who have friends, family or co-workers who support BZero – it just boggles the mind how people WORM for him – and he is a cipher. Oh, BTD got an pols is pols in.

  179. T, on November 21st, 2008 at 12:10 pm Said:
    Why don’t women fight back? I believe it’s because of the “r” word — religion.
    The bible says that women should be subservient. Many women take that BS at face value.

    There are as many passages in the bible that contradict that notion. I don’t know why many women have never bothered to read the whole bible and realize that it was never intended for women to be subservient to men. The Old Testament is replete with the heroic roles several women have played, like Deborah, Rehab, Judith.

  180. TRK @12:18 – YES!!!

  181. simofish

    I had also been hoping for the creation of non-partisan groups and causes.

    Until I attended a Republican Town Committee meeting a few nights ago.
    What an eye-opener. I’m still talking to myself.
    I feel like the man who chased his hat on a windy day. WTF!

    It was the first meeting this particular group held since before the election.
    A speaker gave a decent presentation about going forward and supporting the new President. He talked about Republican dignity and common goals.
    When he finished it was time for open discussion.

    The conversation quickly turned into rants about “Traditional Marriage” and “The Unborn.” It was shocking, ugly, and offensive.

    How do women work together when they can’t agree on issues like reproductive privacy or same sex marriage?

    There were some hard-core “pro-lifers” in that room. The only cause they seemed to support was the cause of making abortion illegal (yes, we NEED those pro-choice groups, unfortunately. See my rant at the tail of madamab’s Potpourri post yesterday.)

    There were others in attendance that insisted allowing gays to marry would be the downfall of America. I kid you not. Some of the comments were so outrageous and intolerant I thought they had to be facetious. They were not.

    The gist of their discussion was that conservative values needed to be resurrected for the next election and the moderate wing of the party was responsible for McCain’s loss with their “watering down” of Republican values.

    I watched in horror at all the nodding heads.

    I could not get out of there fast enough, and when I tried to escape they chased me and stuffed more literature into my hands.

    I’m still regrouping-it was one hell of a reality dose.

    Non-partisan women’s groups?
    I’m no longer sure.

    I might have to stay in the trenches with the unholy abortion advocates and the LGBT’s hellbent on destroying the country for a while longer.

  182. helenk, on November 21st, 2008 at 12:19 pm Said:
    How about a women’s group that focuses on RESPECT for All women?

    That is what Free US Now is and has been all about for One year now. it’s all in our name. Check us out – and now that the election is over we are dedicating Monday night to a Non partisan all womean ladies night – we are pushing Womeans right s are human rights – we are the ones we have been waiting for – we ledt Denver and went to St paul- – All women are worthy of our respect and we iontend to make it happen.

    Plase tune in Monday night at 8.

    FreeUsNowPassERA Radio Monday 8pm est
    Link is – http://www.blogtalkradio.com/FreeMeNow
    Call-in Number: (347) 838-8011

  183. Thanks RD. Somebody had to say it, and you always do. The demographic you nailed — malewise, are the men who worked with “Hillary’s” in their lifetimes. They didn’t like them having power there (in the workplace) and they didn’t want to see her have it “there” — that is my take.

    The bashing of the two of them was what we did not expect. My sense is that the media is “framing” this — with TV shows. I watched a few the other night — I can’t even believe what I am seeing! The women characters aren’t strong types — we grew up with those — heroic figures, didn’t we?

    I’ll tell you this funny story from when I was in that writer’s group. Nobody wrote “equality” except me. The men portrayed themselves as “masters” and the women were “sl*ves” — it used to infuriate me. Really. Of course this is a fantasy they would like to believe?

    Feminism was about women having their own money — so they could have their own lives. “Choice” of life — rather than be married off.

    So, I’m watching this show about the police — I don’t know the name of the show but they were tackling the whole “polygamy” deal in the plot. You wouldn’t have believed what the female character was! She was going to go back after having escaped because it was “the right thing” — O brother.

    It was all about “our lifetimes” with Hillary. She is just like us — and to see the savagery? — but to see what is getting a free pass? Ugh.

    If anyone Hillary EARNED IT! It’s going to take a long, long, time for all the pieces to be written about this. I think we are all shocked beyond belief. At what we saw.

    For me, late 80’s forward “feminism” on the job was up to the individual — all the women were advancing but it was slow in the newspaper biz. Very slow. In fact, it was only in the 80’s that women started to write hard news, instead of the recipe section!

    I think we have this whole “chunk” of history that hasn’t been explored for the gen who came of age then — because we haven’t written it yet? I read a piece the other day — on how they decimated Hillary over that tear she shed. Then it talked about how Palin was also decimated in her own ways–

    We have a long way to go, if we pick up that thread and run with it.
    Our feminism was “individual” — I think. We were the recipients of the battles fought in the sixties — twenty years later.

    The Third Wave Violet refers to has no idea of what they just did.
    What is so unusual to watch is the prop 8 thing. We are seeing our gen (tail end baby boom) rail against the machine!

    (Like it always did) —

    Hey, don’t work too hard in that cube. Especially if the 401k has just been taken. Your field was a glass ceiling! RD. Science. Just like Hillary’s. Politics.

    hugs.

  184. I never picked up on it before this election.
    Watch the reruns of I Love Lucy.
    Look how she was treated as a child and everyone thought it was funny.

    WOMEN,MEN WHO SUPPORT THEM AND COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  185. Is this humorous ? I thought it was funny. The absurdity of the idea. Anyway like Angelina’s tattoo says ‘know your rights’.

  186. Madamab,

    The “gift” that Obama has that Hillary doesn’t is a penis!!!!

    Hillary outshines him in everything else. The MSM did everything possible to make her look bad and even then she outshined him.

  187. When all else failed against the British in 1776, American colonists revolted.

    No more taxation without representation. We need to be represented in government at the highest levels.

    It’s time to start the portion of the American Revolution that was left out in 1776 and the one that Abigail Adams spoke about when she said that all men could be tyrants — not a movement, a revolution — the American Women’s Revolution.

  188. What really distresses me is that women who are public figures and have a platform refuse to own up to the blatent misogyny that took place this election year.
    Even the women in congress and the feminist establishment have failed to address this issue with any vigor. As soon as a couple of brave soles stand-up and insist on exposing it, others will follow. But as we all learned from our college women’s studies professors, silence is death and the guilty remain free to continue their onslot of hate. The silence is what has unleashed the acceptence of this hateful behavior. It was better kept under raps. Now that there has been no public outcry from the feminest establishment and public figures, the permission to openly engage in misogynistic behavior in mainstream culture and news outlets is now even more acceptable. This is what makes this election cycle so bad for women and it has effectively turned back the clock on us. We have to push back!!!! If not for ourselves, for our daughters.

  189. Alwaysthinking,

    Here, here. Where do we sign-up?

  190. KJ — I’m thinking the Pumas can play the role of the incorrigible Samuel Adams, who was a bit of a guerrilla and corralled support among the colonies for the revolution. Only, of course, we should take the “civil” (but forceful) approach.

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: