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Saturday: Take an old cold tater and wait

Protesting the H8 in CA

Protesting the H8 in CA

It’s funny how the people who manage to make their way to the top seem to think it is O. K. to do it by stepping on the heads of the people who helped them get there.  The passage of Proposition 8 in California, that defines marriage as between only a man and a woman, is the unpredictable fallout of the Obama victory.  Christian conserverative African Americans and Latinos turned out to establish a new pecking order.  Some of these people think that homosexuality is a behavioral choice even though there is a growing body of scientific evidence that it is not.  And if it is not, then how does one reconcile a loving god with the mandate to be forever celibate, forever consigned to the role of child in the family, forever unable to have a loving partner and family?

For too long, religion has concentrated on proscriptions about sex, putting love, commitment and protection of families secondary.  This is what Proposition 8 puts into law.  It says, “We aren’t too concerned what you do after you are married, just as long as you have slot A and piece B.  As long as your anatomical features are correct, you and your family are entitled to the full protection of the law.  Gay couples and their children are not entitled to the full protection of the law because they might do something icky with their privates.  Of course, heterosexual couples might do something icky with theirs as well but it’s legal because they’re married and therefore, none of our business.”

This is how the Obama presidency is starting.  One group of people get their long awaited triumph and then turn around and screw another demographic.  To those of us who have followed the campaign for months, this shouldn’t come as a surprise.  Obama made appearances with anti-gay people and made a point of reaching out to the evangelical community.  What he did was surreptitiously court the bigots in the religious community over issues of homosexuality and abortion.  He gave these groups tacit approval of their prejudices.  What makes his behavior different than that of a Republican like George Bush?  He got away with it because journalists completely failed us.  (Listen to the post-election Fresh Air interview with Bill Moyers if you can stomach it.  The blinders on these people need to come off and soon.)

This is not an auspicious start to the era of Hope and Change! There are persistent rumors that Larry Summers may be nominated as Secretary of the Treasury as well.  This is the former president of Harvard that said that women are innately incapable of competing with men in math and science.*  Science had some recent articles saying Larry is full of it. (pending citations)  So, is the media going to pick up on this or are they going to continue to grind women to political pulp? We shall see.  But if he appoints Summers, there’s a good chance that gay people won’t be the only ones protesting.

In other news:

  • Day care centers are seeing their clientele dwindle as parents cut costs.
  • Sarah Palin is engaged in an epic battle with the Bushies. It looks like the Bushies are still trying to blame their catastrophic failure as a party on her.  We shouldn’t let them get away with it.  If there is any hope for reforming the Republican party, it rests in people like Palin.
  • Anglachel covers Hillary’s newest initiatives.  It looks like Hillary is going to be a burr in Obama’s saddle for a long time in the Senate.  Take that Nancy! As Anglachel says:

I love her line: “We are in a recession and we must act decisively and wisely to change course, hasten a recovery, and reform the broken economic policies that will be the sad and disastrous legacy of the Bush Administration.” More of this, please. More nicely, sweetly partisan knife twisting to ensure that Bush is never spoken of without BartCop’s tag line – Worst President Ever.

*I just saw a reference to Larry Summers being a managing director of D. E. Shaw’s group.  This is an unusual group founded by David Shaw, a biophysicist, who made a killing in the stock market.  I’m not clear on how he did it but in the studies of proteins, there is a kind of sensitivity analysis that can be performed to observe what happens to a system when a small part of it is perturbed.  A satellite group of his is involved in a program I use at work called Desmond, which calculates protein molecular dynamics.  It kind of gives you a sense of what the hell their doing on Wall Street with all of the simulations.  The thing is, the simulations are only as good as the understanding of the system they are supposed to model.  Very interesting and very disturbing that Summers is tied to this group.  It must drive the female computational modelers in Shaw’s group up a frickin’ wall.

119 Responses

  1. sending a link of this to my buddies across the street who mocked me for supporting McCain.

  2. been out chalking the sidewalks around the local Mormon church with anti-8 slogans…

    I hope to disturb these people as they seem so surprised that anyone might object to them pumping millions of dollars and an army of sign wavers…. “who ME? a bigot??!!??”

    Yes, you…

    we have had enough.

  3. Good Morning, Riverdaughter — I love this post. I’ve seen some signs that the blinders are starting to slip. I think the time between now and the inauguration will be very interesting.

  4. Kbird: Well, the slipping needs to hurry up. The Moyer’s interview was sickening. To him, Obama poops patchouli scented turds. He simply cannot do anything wrong. I am convinced that Moyers latched on to Obama’s skin color and never bothered to look any deeper than that.
    I’m so completely disappointed and disgusted with him.

  5. I like Obama. Sure, his policies are depraved but he has very good style. I watched his press conference and for the most part thought he did fine, except for the Nancy Reagan comment.

  6. yes RD you mean the way women cannot do math chemistry or science so that men can take credit for their work??

    In the early 1950s, the race to discover DNA was on. At Cambridge University, graduate student Francis Crick and research fellow James Watson (b. 1928) had become interested, impressed especially by Pauling’s work. Meanwhile at King’s College in London, Maurice Wilkins (b. 1916) and Rosalind Franklin were also studying DNA. The Cambridge team’s approach was to make physical models to narrow down the possibilities and eventually create an accurate picture of the molecule. The King’s team took an experimental approach, looking particularly at x-ray diffraction images of DNA.

    In 1951, Watson attended a lecture by Franklin on her work to date. She had found that DNA can exist in two forms, depending on the relative humidity in the surrounding air. This had helped her deduce that the phosphate part of the molecule was on the outside. Watson returned to Cambridge with a rather muddy recollection of the facts Franklin had presented, though clearly critical of her lecture style and personal appearance. Based on this information, Watson and Crick made a failed model. It caused the head of their unit to tell them to stop DNA research. But the subject just kept coming up.

    Franklin, working mostly alone, found that her x-ray diffractions showed that the “wet” form of DNA (in the higher humidity) had all the characteristics of a helix. She suspected that all DNA was helical but did not want to announce this finding until she had sufficient evidence on the other form as well. Wilkins was frustrated. In January, 1953, he showed Franklin’s results to Watson, apparently without her knowledge or consent. Crick later admitted, “I’m afraid we always used to adopt — let’s say, a patronizing attitude towards her.”

    Watson and Crick took a crucial conceptual step, suggesting the molecule was made of two chains of nucleotides, each in a helix as Franklin had found, but one going up and the other going down. Crick had just learned of Chargaff’s findings about base pairs in the summer of 1952. He added that to the model, so that matching base pairs interlocked in the middle of the double helix to keep the distance between the chains constant.

    Watson and Crick showed that each strand of the DNA molecule was a template for the other. During cell division the two strands separate and on each strand a new “other half” is built, just like the one before. This way DNA can reproduce itself without changing its structure — except for occasional errors, or mutations.

    The structure so perfectly fit the experimental data that it was almost immediately accepted. DNA’s discovery has been called the most important biological work of the last 100 years, and the field it opened may be the scientific frontier for the next 100. By 1962, when Watson, Crick, and Wilkins won the Nobel Prize for physiology/medicine, Franklin had died. The Nobel Prize only goes to living recipients, and can only be shared among three winners. Were she alive, would she have been included in the prize?

    Perfect example of how women cannot do science is it not?? Sorry if my sarcasm is spilling over on this tpoic … I got straight a’s in chemistry and physics and I loved it … adored it … still do ..

    this is one of the perfect reasons history has to be truthful

  7. Obama poops patchouli scented turds

    Riverdaughter, that might just be the best thing you’ve ever written! Well, not really — but, I like it a lot.

    Moyer’s isn’t going to slip on this. If he could talk to Rev. Wright for an hour without ever asking about how he came to brutally attack Hillary Clinton from the pulpit (or why it makes sense for a man-of-the-cloth to pray that God Damn America) then, it’s clear he (Moyers) isn’t really interested in anything but the Glossy Finish of Hope and Change.

    The slipping going to be really slow for some people. Yesterday, my mom said that she’s really happy that we’ll be agreeing about everything again now that the election is over. Like suddenly I’m going to like Obama? Not likely.

  8. johninca, “I like Obama.”

    Is a comment I would delete if this was my thread.

  9. I am glad I am with the majority on Sean Connery 🙂

    {Hitchcock’s Marnie is Connery’s best, IMO. }

  10. Episcopal Bishop Gene Robinson, the only openly gay Bishop in the Anglican church, made the comment that “at its root, the hatred of gays is driven by a hatred and second-class status of women.” I think he’s spot-on in this remark. As far as the church is concerned, Robinson believes that gay Roman Catholic priests need to lobby hard for the ordination of women, because only when women are accepted as equal will gays begin to be accepted as equals. My guess is that this applies to politics, business and other areas where the glass ceiling is in place.

    Women are approximately 52% of the populace. Until we can unite for our own interests and stand up for ourselves, regardless of religion or political party, I don’t see much hope for us or any other unfairly treated members of society. We have allowed the men in this country–and many women–to promote the idea that being feminine is inherently bad. (Of course, many other cultures are guilty of this as well.) We need our own outrage, our own civil rights marches.

  11. johninca, “I like Obama.”

    Is a comment I would delete if this was my thread.

    On what basis?

    I hate his policies and evil actions, not the man. In all seriousness, even if he were my personal enemy, as a Christian I would be obliged to love and pray for him.

    I don’t understand how my comment would be unacceptable.

  12. Is this the same johninca who was critical when RD write that celebratory post (I saw a few comments to that effect in NQ as well)? Glad to see such quick turn around (sarcastic comment).

  13. johninca: Weren’t you the guy who said you were outta here when I wrote the infamous celebration post?
    See, I’m all for celebrating AA’s getting to the mountaintop but I seriously do not like Obama. Not even if he is smooth.

  14. grayslady , the current pope recently issued a proclamation that any women “ordained” as priests or anyone helping women become ordained or supporting their cause would be summarily excommunicated. from the RCC. so catholic women had better get back in the goddamm kitchen kick their shoes off and get pregnant …seems to me …..
    and any woman in the bo administration had better be servile and know their place as well .
    mo announced quite pointedly that she was going to be ” Laura Bushlike” ( ok that is hilarious and ripe with promise of future humor but I am going to save it for now ) first lady ; as opposed to a Hillary like firstlady.
    And they say this administration is not a great source of humor??

  15. johninca, on the basis that I moderate comments for trollish remarks and historically comments that begin, “I like Obama” are from trolls.

    And your comment was too simplistic to support the comment. You went on to say,

    his policies are depraved but he has very good style. I watched his press conference and for the most part thought he did fine, except for the Nancy Reagan comment.

    Well, he’s often said things that I agree with — but, since he’s a lying liar, I don’t see how that changes a damn thing. And style? OK. So what?

    Regular commenters get some slack when I’m moderating someone else’s thread. But, I’ll say it again. I’d have deleted it from my own thread.

  16. Voted for Roger Moore and I really dislike Obama. Nothing is ever going to change that.

  17. Riverdaughter, I had a feeling all along that you may be (or might have been) working w/ proteins, and have wanted to ask you if you have any info other than what shows up on Google search, about new incites on protein behavior in Parkinson’s that may bring an effective med soon. Treatment for these types of diseases, as you no doubt are aware, is still just action to try to make symptoms subside.

  18. swan: does this mean Mo is going to get a valium script and sleep through life happily ever after?

  19. RD, you have a more generous heart to give a platform to Anglachel. I haven’t been able to go back there since she made those false accusations singling you and NQ out (what bugged me more was that she did not have the courage to post some of our comments on that blog). If she could not understand how we needed these blogs to negate the cacophony of the incompetent and deceitful media, then all her other analysis is kind of irrelevant to me. I don’t have to be “cheer leading” her. {But if I ran a blog, I would do what you do.}

  20. RD – very good article. You always say what I am feeling but cannot put into words.

    Speaking of journalism, I couldn’t go to the Moyers interview. I just couldn’t stomach it because I’ve already read my emails and had enough. I got an email from another PUMA site, Toni Alves; she had put a snip in it that Chris Matthews had said something to the effect of “it was his job to make Obama a success.” My God! Apparently, Scarborough reminded him it’s his job to report, and not spread propoganda.

    Speaking of Larry Summers (a very scary thought), thank you for pulling out the article from the Boston Globe and pointing this out. Lest any of us forget our own RD is a scientist; and we should also not forget the great Madame Curie, discoverer of radium, opening the door to a new era of medical treatment?

    As for Prop 8, there are no words to describe my disgust at this “thing” passing. It seems hypocrisy has been the basis all the way around. I am in CA, but in a “right winged” area. The Prop 8 signs all around me make me sick and I want to tear them all down.

    Katiebird, dont’ feel bad – I am “this close” to not speaking to my 85 yro father, an extreme liberal. But, I take his age into consideration and try to forget his snarky comments to me when I even attempt a discussion of the Great One. I’ve decided not to discuss it with him anymore.

  21. This is not an auspicious start to the era of Hope and Change! There are persistent rumors that Larry Summers may be nominated as Secretary of the Treasury as well. This is the former president of Harvard that said that women are innately incapable of competing with men in math and science.*
    Who really won this election, Hope/Change or MISOGYNY AND HATE?!?

  22. johninca: Weren’t you the guy who said you were outta here when I wrote the infamous celebration post?

    I was indeed pained at your post, but I never stopped liking you.

    It’s a great paradox, isn’t it. For five months I have criticized Obama ruthlessly, called his policies aberrant, maintained that he has blood on his hands, took his election as the crucifixion of my country… and still I have a visceral liking for him.

    It’s because as a Christian, I have been taught to love my enemies, to convert the enemy, to remember that he too could change and be forgiven and become a partaker of eternal life.

  23. Secrets: Palin ‘One Step’ From Stealing

  24. I think heterosexual marriage should be restricted to a man and a woman! Two people of the same gender should be restricted to homosexual marriages *only*!

    Zheesh — the politicians are wasting my money peering in people’s bedrooms & trying to prevent people who *want* to take care of each other from doing so? And claiming it’s based on “values”?

    Add petty mean-spiritedness and pandering to a public fearful of what they don’t know to my list of why I don’t like most politicians.

    The correct answer is Sean Connery, but I will listen to other arguments as well.

  25. “is the unpredictable fallout of the Obama victory. Christian conserverative African Americans and Latinos turned out to establish a new pecking order. Some of these people think that homosexuality is a behavioral choice even though there is a growing body of scientific evidence that it is not. ”
    That is the paradox of the “new” Dem party. Both Hispanics and AA’s are traditionally socially conservative. Obama said during the primary that he was against gay marriage but “could afford to give some rights to gays”. And the LGBT community supported Obama..go figure.

  26. “It’s because as a Christian, I have been taught to love my enemies, to convert the enemy, to remember that he too could change and be forgiven and become a partaker of eternal life.”


    One more comment like this and you’re out of here. This is NOT going to descend into an, “I’m a better Christian than you thread”.

  27. woman voter, what is on the video? I don’t want watch.

  28. {{{BFF}}}

    I’m so glad to see you, i’ve really missed you!!

  29. right on, katiebird.

  30. Secrets: Obama ‘A Difficult Person to Know Well’

    Palin A THIEF…
    Obama A Difficult Person to Know..

    Gee maybe if they did their jobs as journalists they could have found out by NOW after two years.

  31. Karolina NYC: Sorry, Parkinson’s is not my area. But if I run across something, I’ll let you know.

  32. woman voter, sorry, why a thief? (ok, next post, you’ll tell me to watch the video, 🙂

  33. pm317, on November 8th, 2008 at 11:49 am Said:

    woman voter, what is on the video? I don’t want watch.
    LOOK 😦 it is the beginning of sending a MESSAGE to WOMEN…DON’T RUN WE WILL RUIN YOU! Clothes scandal yet he got NOOOOO ‘REPORT’ on his MANSION deal with Rezko. Gee, I am surprise there aren’t any public stoning happening now.

  34. dakinikat ..can we find a doctor to prescribe mo the valium ???I wouldnt mind her being quiet for the next four years….. first dad can take care of the kids .. the way Sarah Palin would have right??

  35. I have always been fascinated by the idea that the most religious and the most socially conservative groups are the most exclusive, territorial and emotionally (and physically) brutal. Think it has something to do w/ fear? Duh. But, isn’t being spiritual supposed to make people stronger, because they believe that they are frigging protected?????

  36. Obama poops patchouli scented turds

    must be the family thing- I leapt on this line too.

    I hope you are right, sis. I want to see some real revelations before christmas–just to get me through that time. forgive me, but my mom has been making me sick lately–can’t talk to her right now. how sad is that?

  37. ps–Daniel Craig. YUM!

  38. Thank you, RD.

  39. There are protests galore out here right now. It is so sad. Earlier on in this whole deal when we still had Hillary I had a SFgate piece on Gavin Newsom. O was out here courting the gay vote in LA and raking in the $$$$$$$$, of course. But, he refused to pose with Newsom in SF for a picture. Because Newsom was gay and it wouldn’t look good — NQ had the ad that was running.

    This is the whole problem with the divide and conquer marketing that was done in the web. LGBT was one of his hugest supporters, no?
    Yeah right.

    California is going to be very vocal about this — have no doubt. It’s all over the news… He used them, RD. For the $$$$$$$.
    Anyone interested in more about this can get links from what I wrote back in Feb. below. The colored words are links to articles, and even that little Rainbow variation of the logo, yeah. I had his number so long ago RD. I really did. Pass the cursor over those words and you can see the links, then double click and go…for the evidence and stories. This issue is another RIP in the fabric of what was the Democratic Party.

    RD, I saw Violet was on the Summers……thank god.


  40. NEWSWEEK is making Palin out to be a CLOTHES THIEF…Wasilla Hillbillies…SHE SHOPPED TIL SHE DROPPED (they are making her to mean CHARGE as CHARGE IT TO THEIR CREDIT CARD…thief) AND THEN WENT ROGUE!

    Yet their report on Obama is glowing, fawning…

  41. RD wrote that passing of Propostion 8 was “…the unpredictable fallout of the Obama victory. ” I must beg to differ. This was definitely not unpredictable. The NY Times published an article about it several weeks ago – saying that a large turnout for Obama in CA would mean that Proposition 8 would pass. And considering that Obama had Douglas Kmiec campaign for him in CA – its defeat would have been the unpredictable thing!

  42. I thought I knew Moyers thinking quite well but I continue to be amazed at the astonishing transformations of various media people I had always respected. In fact, he was in my graduating class in journalism. It so happens, although people scoff at this today, that we had professors who were very high-minded and constantly preached accuracy and ethics to us. Over the years, Moyers has exhibited these traits so very often — but something seems to have happened during the primary season, just as it has happened to so many other media stars. Deeply, deeply disappointing.

    I’m more disappointed, however, by the amazingly dishonest and brazen bias being shown against women in America. I know first-hand, as most others do, that women have always done a great deal in science, math, and other fields — often without getting credit. If we don’t counter all of this betrayal now with a massive response, we are going to be suffering far into the future. We ourselves must be the key to leading this civil rights movement for those being left out.

  43. swanspirit–RE the Pope: No one said it was ever going to be easy.

  44. I truly think that for bo , misogynistic roots run deep .
    I think they originate from as far back as his early childhood and early male and cultural influences and he cannot help sending that message consciously and subconsiously . His condescending attitide toward women permeates his being, it saturated his campaign and will be a hallmark of his administration , I promise you .
    The faith based initiatives are simply a means for him to accomplish his reparative money funnel to AA churches . The constitution means nothing to him; but is something to circumvent , as far as he is concerned . Other wise he would not have backed down on FISA as well.

  45. RD:
    See, I’m all for celebrating AA’s getting to the mountaintop but I seriously do not like Obama.

    Actually I might have agreed with your post if you had written it differently. If I had seen Jesse Jackson with a tear in his eye, I might have shed a tear myself. Only a Jesse Jackson, who grew up in the old south under all the horrors, could tell you how much that moment meant to him.

    I said yesterday that in the abstract, the election of a black president would be beautiful, and that blacks have the right to see such a beautiful moment.

    The reason I was pained at your post was that you didn’t use language like “in the abstract” or “hypothetically speaking,” or “all things being equal…” I felt that your post, as written, glorified the election of Obama, an act that was profoundly wrong and made the angels weep.

    I felt that perhaps you intended to convey a thought similar to this comment, but used the wrong words. So I satirized you
    (in a very affectionate way, I thought) for the next three days.

    The ‘farewell’ comment was either an overreaction, or something I just could not follow through…

  46. Oh, and as far as James Bond goes. Roger Moore was the first Bond I saw. But I think George Lazenby was hands down the best. He, of course, only did one movie (and it’s one of THE best Bond movies). I think his performance was a perfect combination of Connery, Moore, and Dalton: he was sexy, suave, dangerous. I don’t think any other bond combined all three of those characteristics so perfectly. It’s too bad he, by his own admission, became such a prima donna during production that they refused to rehire him.

    I like Dalton also, but Dalton was a very serious Bond. Brosnan is too pretty. Moore was too clownish. Connery – too cool for school.

  47. Good thing this about to be ex-Dem is used to losing because I picked Pierce Brosnan.
    Seriously, bambi has to apologize to Nancy Reagan for a silly seance remark but no way can he apologize to Hillary, Sarah or all the women he has trashed and allowed his supporters to treat crudely and with extreme vulgarity. No way can I forget or forgive. Puma in hiding now.

  48. Thanks woman voter. Yea, she shopped till she dropped and went and addressed all those thousands of crowds in multiple events per day and did interviews and got briefed and brought up to speed on McCain’s policies/positions and worked on her multiple stump speeches. Oh, she is superwoman! We will need her in 2012.

    I wonder if it is Obama’s camp still trying to bring her down so she will be a non-issue in 2012. If all those Republicans had gone to the polls this election like they did for Bush, I think Obama would have had to stuff more ballots.

  49. Sam Harris: Proposition 8 and The Aftermath of Injustice.

    “I feel betrayed!”…
    [his closing thought]
    “Stand up for what is right, do the right thing, leave a legacy, to your family, and your friends, and your children…that you did the right thing, teach your children the right thing. I am sorry this has tainted the victory of Barrack Obama, but I guess its necessary for change to happen. Alright, do some thing wonderful for somebody, do some thing wonderful for yourself, stand up for someone else.”–Sam Harris.com

  50. johninca:

    One more comment like this and you’re out of here. This is NOT going to descend into an, “I’m a better Christian than you thread”.

    Whether I’m “out of here” is up to the moderators, and always has been. I said nothing about “I’m a better Christian than you”. Nothing. I was asked a question, and gave a straight answer. If I get banned, so be it.

  51. pm317, on November 8th, 2008 at 12:04 pm Said:

    Thanks woman voter. Yea, she shopped till she dropped and went and addressed all those thousands of crowds in multiple events per day and did interviews and got briefed and brought up to speed on McCain’s policies/positions and worked on her multiple stump speeches. Oh, she is superwoman! We will need her in 2012.
    They are trying to bring any woman that dares to run down. That was Hillary’s crime, she dared to run for POTUS. So NOW they are trying to say Palin is a ‘Typical Woman’…all she thinks about is clothes, clothes, shopping and more clothes and well, HOW DARE SHE want good things…then McCain aides (some mention of someone named Nicole) brought out the ‘Wasilla Hillbillies’.

  52. By Vbonnaire: ” . . . .I had a SFgate piece on Gavin Newsom. O was out here courting the gay vote in LA and raking in the $$$$$$$$, of course. But, he refused to pose with Newsom in SF for a picture. Because Newsom was gay and it wouldn’t look good — NQ had the ad that was running.

    Um, I don’t think Gavin Newsom is gay. Where did you get that? I understand about BO not posing for a picture with Gavin Newsom (mayor of San Francisco) but that was because of Newsom’s deeply rooted beliefs in Gay Marriage. Not because he himself is gay. He was married to a FOX reporter (forget her name) and is engaged (or already married again) to another woman.

  53. well, there might have been a lot of AA crying about reaching the mountain top, but many more will be crying when we all meet in the valley

  54. DYB – what you said. It was absolutely predictable.

    As a member of the LGBT community let me say this – we have not been well served by our so-called leaders and organizations for several years.

    And, the treatment/mistreatment of my community by the DNC since the arrival of Howard Dean and his AA contingency of gay haters has been successfully hidden from the gay community (and the greater community) by The Gay/Lesbian D.C. Village Elitist. They just raise money, lots of money, from my community in order to keep their jobs and go to cocktail parties.

  55. My expectation is that the Obama camp is going to fracture the coalition of the Democrats, which used to unite together,among others, AAs, GLBT, and women.

    I think that the “landslide” win they imagine they have won (despite it’s really being based on the external factor of the worst economic crisis since the Depression) will make them simply dismiss any concerns raised by elements of their coalition as irrelevant to their electoral prospects (the only thing they have ever cared about). Their natural arrogance will only further this inclination. Their success of that arrogant attitude in this election will only encourage more of same. They have never been about building coalitions, and satisfying constituencies — they have always been about assuming that the components of the coalition will just have to get on board because they have nowhere else to go.

    But the fracture of the coalition will turn out to be real and important. After the passage of Prop 8 largely at the hands of an element of that coalition, the AAs, it will be very hard I’m sure for GLBTs, and the many, many people who have great sympathy with their cause, to feel the same way about going out of their way to support AAs in their own causes. Really, the statement by many AAs that “we can’t choose to be black, but they can choose to be gay” must burn deep resentment into many GLBTs. (And it’s absurd to think that GLBTs won’t single out AAs who profess this view — unlike the white religious right and others who voted for Prop 8, the AAs are supposed to be allies, and have received steadfast support from the GLBT community).

    The deeper political/cultural problem for the Obama camp is that GLBTs are, in the eyes of the larger leftist community, considered every bit as much an oppressed minority worthy of support as AAs. It’s considered as much a sign of unregenerate bigotry to discriminate against or disrespect GLBTs as it is to do so with AAs; hate speech codes in academic circles are as much geared toward GLBTs, for example, as they are toward AAs. Essentially, both groups enjoy equal status in the hierarchy of left wing protection against discrimination. For one group who has achieved success with the support of the other to turn on that other group with such overwhelming numbers cannot go down well.

    Women, I think, are going to be the next group to realize how little their concerns have been listened to. Appointing Larry Summers would signal the real propensities of the Obama governing faction in a way that thought leaders concerned with women’s issues will not be able to ignore.

  56. johninca: Take a break, buddy. I’m going to clean my basement today so the construction crew can finish it. I’ll bet you have projects you’ve been putting off too. How about we all get some work done today?

    BTW, John, I’ve always made it clear that the majority if not all of the bloggers here are pro-choice. We may disagree how we got to that point but there it is. I know this has been a major sticking point with you. There are also a significant number of us (myself, SM77 and myiq2xu) who have lived with religious conservatives and we utterly reject that way of thinking and worldview. People who grew up with a kinder and gentler religion probably do not fully understand what it is like to live with strict moralists, eschatologists, fundamentalists and evangelicals. I’m sorry but I can’t handle anything but the gentlest Christianity as described in the New Testament and only in the first four books but only if in concordance and approved by experts in the field. I don’t particularly care for Paul, except in a few of the more poetic passages, and I consider Revelations to be over the top. I’m sure as heck not waiting for the end of the world.
    Old Testament is an interesting mix of history and mythology. I believe in doing what is right not what is written.
    Anyway, that’s where I stand. So, any attempts to move the religion issue to the right here is probably not going to go over well. I’m not going to stop anyone from doing it but it just seems to me that there are other blogs more suitable to such a thing. Maybe my mother will start one.

  57. Palin’s aide Stapleton(?) came back with a rebuke (I think it was in abcnews) and one of the things she said was that Palin refused to wear something that had a price tag of $3500. It is more like a NY stylist gone wild than Palin. Whys is it such a big issue — she is an Alaska governor, who knows if she goes to work in snow boots? 🙂 She is not a wealthy person to begin with. She needed good looking clothes to be in front of the camera and millions of people. Why is it such a big issue? I hate these journalists. In that Rose’s show, that Evan Thomas looked silly for his age and position to be talking about gossip on Palin. BTW, Greta has a 10PM interview on Monday with Palin. Hope she strongly condemns all this.

  58. Advertisements [?]
    According to a high level Obama staffer via Ben Smith, “”He is never going to serve in our administration, and we may give San Francisco to Canada.”

    This was in respose to a story which appeared this morning in the San Francisco Chronicle:

    “I gave a fundraiser, at his (Obama’s) request at a Waterfront restaurant,” said former San Francisco Mayor Willie Brown. “And he said to me, he would really appreciate it if he didn’t get his photo taken with my mayor. He said he would really not like to have his picture taken with Gavin.”

    More from the Chronicle story: “In fact, early last year, Newsom alluded to the incident in an interview at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. Speaking to Reuters on Jan. 26, 2007, Newsom was asked about three potential Democratic candidates: Obama, Hillary Clinton and Al Gore.

    “One of the three Democrats you mentioned as presidential candidates, as God is my witness, will not be photographed with me, will not be in the same room with me,” Newsom told Reuters, “even though I’ve done fundraisers for that particular person – not once, but twice – because of this issue.”

    It was well reported, he went to SF for his senate run (TWICE) and went there to pick up the big $$$$ BUCKS and this happened not once but twice.

  59. I strongly suspect that a lot of those expensive N-M clothes and accessories are currently hanging in the closets of of former Palin aides who went shopping for themselves on the GOP dime.

    The technical term is “embezzlement”

  60. Sorry the link didn’t make it.

  61. myiq2xu, on November 8th, 2008 at 12:31 pm Said:
    I strongly suspect that a lot of those expensive N-M clothes and accessories are currently hanging in the closets of of former Palin aides who went shopping for themselves on the GOP dime.

    The technical term is “embezzlement”

    HAHAHAHA now there is a thought ………. you mean they might have done this??
    order one ( for her )in a size 6 and( one for me) in a size 12 ??


  62. Hmm, I see that most people like Roger Moore about as much as I do. Too sarcastic and smarmy.

  63. and just totally OT …Oprah is a ratings whore…….. She invited SARAH PALIN to be on her show?? why not invite HILLARY FIRST you fucking whore … you dont own the world , no matter what you think ,

    i guess I am losing it , but damn …..

  64. <<<>>>>

    Yes, I know this story. What I was saying earlier is that the poster here said that Obama would not pose “because Gavin Newsom IS GAY.”

    I was only pointing out that Newsom is NOT gay himself. He supports Gay Rights, and is all for Gay Marriage. That’s all I was saying. To keep the story straight and accurate. That’s all.

  65. Would like to reinforce that the passage of Prop 8 was not unpredictable.

    In the VP debate, Ifil ASKED Joe Biden about gay marriage……he clearly, on a national stage, said absolutely not, and that he and Barak Obama believed marriage was only between a man and woman. Basically, Biden publicly agreed with Sarah Palin that night.

    This was no surprise at all. Biden told Obama’s supporters exactly what the Dem Party supported.

    I’d sure like to know how all the gay Hollywood Obama supporters are feeling right now, wouldn’t you?

    Blaming the Mormons is a complete copout.

    Joe Biden sent the signal the night of the VP debate, loud and clear.

  66. Oh, and by the way, it’s nobody BUT Sean Connery!!! Sheesh! LOL

  67. Ok, who’s the other Dalton fan?

  68. Sheri: I beg to differ. I loved Connery but Pierce Brosnan was my fav. Although, I could be persuaded by Daniel Craig…

  69. I was asked by a stranger in a parking lot why still had Hillary’s sticker on my car about a month ago and I was one of those? We got into a back and forth and he admitted he was gay and said Obama would be better for him and I had said I didn’t think so. I wonder how he feels now?

  70. Was it myiq who posted here about a grafitti warning about the oppressed becoming the oppressors? I lived through this once before.
    Meanwhile, Wright is back and bitching

  71. Sheri, on November 8th, 2008 at 12:43 pm Said:


    Yes, I know this story. What I was saying earlier is that the poster here said that Obama would not pose “because Gavin Newsom IS GAY.”

    I was only pointing out that Newsom is NOT gay himself. He supports Gay Rights, and is all for Gay Marriage. That’s all I was saying. To keep the story straight and accurate. That’s all.
    Well, you know, some people think if you support it, you must be gay. I recall when the Obama supporters showed up at GWT and asked if we were all gay, they wouldn’t waste their time (logic being that it wouldn’t be a very big bloc) and they were trying to goad us. So, the same thing happened to Gavin.

  72. Pierce Brosnan acted too much like a know it all. I didn’t like his attitude. He had a smug face. Connery was good but kinda abusive in the way he treated the women.

  73. Sheri—–Maybe I screwed up! Newsom is SUPPORTIVE in San Fran. You can see that ad. Anyway– who cares if he is gay or not? Out here people are all kinds of things and California has always supported its own — whatever they chose to be sexually?

    This is the MOST liberal state there is.
    We are.
    So, if I screwed up on Newsom — O well. But it seems to me that he was for allowing marriage up San Fran way.
    Personally, I’m for people getting married, I don’t draw a line when people love each other — and I’m hetero, and married.
    I’m also a Californian.

    ps: I am so furious about what they are doing to Palin you guys.


    This just diverts the focus from more important things.
    Anyway about the AA deal. Well, I think Colin Powell or Jesse Jackson should have been prez. Not O. He cannot even relate to what black America went through. He used Wright too, Didn’t he for all that $$$$$$$.

    You know what would have made me respect him?
    If he had helped the poor with all those advertising dollars.
    The most honest critiques of him were written in my opinion over at Black Agenda Report by the editor Glen Ford.

  74. I like Dalton too but not as much (voted for Connery). Wasn’t Dalton Mr. Rochester in Jane Eyre in one of its many offerings? Liked the Rochester character too!

  75. The Yes on 8 folks used audio of Obama saying marriage is a sacred union between a man and a woman:

    One complicating factor was that both sides in the campaign had plausible reason to claim Obama’s support. The president-elect strongly stated his opposition to the proposition, calling it “divisive and discriminatory.”

    But he has also said in public speeches that he opposes same-sex marriage. In the days leading up to the election, some Democrats received “robo-calls” on their cellphones containing an excerpt from such a speech.

    “Here is Barack Obama in his own words on the definition of marriage,” the call began.

    Then the voice of Obama speaking to a crowd comes on: “I believe marriage is a union between a man and a woman. Now, for me as a Christian, it is also a sacred union. God is in the mix.”

    A narrator then urged a yes vote on Proposition 8.

  76. Oh, as of the James Bond important issue: I hesitated between Brosnan and Moore. It’s not that I didn’t love Connery – but after he made a remark a few years ago about “smacking around the little woman” I kinda reviewed my tastes. Some things just invade the fantasy world.

  77. I agree, RD, Paul was my least favorite member of the New Testament- he started the fear and exclusivity meme in my opinion (from what I can remember). However, I always found Roger Moore to be quite likeable.

  78. sod – The idea that it is not a civil right can not be changed. They learn it up at the church and therefore it is gospel.

  79. indy
    All Obama had to do was publicly denounce the misuse of his voice. But had he done that, fundies would have come out to vote and he would have lost. It was a contractual obligation.

  80. dakinikat has a new post up

  81. RD — thank you so much for the post.

    I was there last night protesting, a few from the group was. Two of my friends who are Obots came to my house before hand and I don’t keep quiet on nothing. I flat out said – he has no problem being on stage with Don McClurkin and no the AA vote came out in droves – how ironic that their only mission was to vote Obama and Yes on 8 then leave the voting booth. One of my friends, a gay man, said “yeah, well they were slaves” – WTF ? When? When have any of todays voters been slaves? They said Obama will do something about this.

    I told them —– Obama will do nothing about this. Sarah Palin did more for gay people than Obama ever has (her veto of a bill wanting to stripping gay rights from gov’t employees).

    OK — RD – have fun cleaning the basement. I am heading to San Francisco to shop.

  82. Yes, they need to know that Gays and Women are human beings to, deserving of equal protection, equal rights and equal pay. LBG & ERA RIGHTS long over do! If the LBG community is going to do a big march lets us wimin folk join in.

    Did HOPE/CHANGE win the election in 2008 or was it MISOGYNY AND HATE?!?

  83. Thank You RD dont forget Florida’s amendemt # 2. The fact that this passed is a even bigger travesty.

    Florida requires “super majorities” of 60% to pass petition driven amendments to the constitution.

    That means that 40% + 1 vote NO on #2 would have defeated it. Obama wone florida by it looks like 50.1% to 49.9% now so if 80% of Obamas supporters had said no in #2 then it would have failed.

    Actually seems about 15-20% Of McCains supporters voted no on two so maybe 65% support of Obama bots would have carried the day.

    Guess in Florida Hopey Changey doesnt apply fo everyone.

    RD I love you but Sean Connery 100% the beard and for the record he has aged better than the finest french red wine…look that guy could be my father and he is still hot! Oh and in a Kilt no less!

    RD you have to admit that poor old Pierce Brosnan sucked royally in Mama Mia!

  84. Please. Sean Connery *is* James Bond. It’s as simple as that. The rest are just pretenders.

    I guess my flu is still hanging on a bit. I can’t believe I slept until noon! I finally read all the comments and there is so much here!

    Swanspirit–thank you for the history of the discovery of DNA. I can’t believe I didn’t know about Rosalind Franklin. We need a whole new women’s movement!

    There is just no doubt that homophobia and the hatred of women are connected. Garychapelhill has said this many times.

    Katiebird–I read the Open Left post {shudder} but the commenters are all blaming Rahm Emmanuel and acting as if poor Barack just doesn’t know who Rahm is or something. It’s going to take a long time for the koolaid to wear off, IMO.

    RD–Thank you for this post. As usual, it is spot on. I had to stop watching and listening to Bill Moyers quite awhile ago, and I couldn’t stand to listen to the clip yet. I heard a bit of what he said on Fresh Air when I was switching stations in the car. It’s very sad that so many of these people I thought were actually liberals are really only concerned about the rights of straight men. Women and gays don’t exist for them.

  85. swanspirit, on November 8th, 2008 at 12:43 pm

    I wouldn’t call her a whore even though am not fond of her. It is good she invited Palin rather than Hillary where the only information Oprah will want is to know how great Hillary thinks Obama is. Oprah is a hypocrity and I have thought so since 2005.

  86. The Chicago School of Medicine was renamed after Rosalind Franklin. Belated but fitting.

    And women aren’t talented in computation? http://ftp.arl.mil/ftp/historic-computers/jpeg/first_four.jpg

  87. Michelle – the “Mom in chief”


  88. Dee, on November 8th, 2008 at 12:55 pm Said:

    sod – The idea that it is not a civil right can not be changed. They learn it up at the church and therefore it is gospel.
    Dolores Huerta has spoken up about this and said so in San Francisco and she supported Hillary! The LBG Community needs to do outreach to her and have her be their main speaker and she has a lot of love for the LBG community.

  89. sorry but his voice was absolutely gawd-awful!

  90. Swan, as an undergrad I was taught to revere both Watson and Crick and then when I actually read the true story and saw photos of the lithographs Franklin made I knew the truth. They stole her work and then upstaged her to get all the credit and glory. Neither did any work that led to real results. The whole story about getting the epiphany while working on the model while drinking beer in the pub always sounded like hogwash to me. Now we know that they are complete and utter frauds. They only got away with it because (a) she was a woman and (b) she was very ill. It still chaps my ass to think about it. If you look at those photos anybody and I mean anybody with any decent training at all could understand what they meant. Franklin knew what they were. She understood. She was just doing science properly. Getting all the facts before publishing. Watson and Crick both got published without doing the proper work. Very disgusting. And to hear how they talked about her after she had been dead for many years any person with a decent BS detector could understand that the reason they were both so defensive and condescending is because SHE was the one who made the discoveries and they were the frauds.

  91. New thread ….

  92. Sheri? I replied but it got stuck in moderation. Oops. Newsom was the supportive person in SF — Anyway–RD? I think I might have had a trigger word in that comment.

    I hope you can see what I wrote?

    anyway…. the links are in that piece that people can use for their own articles…or research on this matter.

    California is the most liberal state, I think. I know because I am a native. We are the tolerant, open minded part of the Dems out here. I thought.

  93. Obama certainly does assert that he’s against gay marriage. Yet he also claimed (in a much lowered voice) that he was against Prop 8, because he thought it would be discriminatory.

    His own words in his own voice were used by advocates of Prop 8 to get people to support it. Opponents of Prop 8 called that technique “deceitful”.

    Yet who clearly had a moral obligation to set the record straight here? Obviously, Obama, who was in the unique position to do so, given that it was his own words.

    Did he do so in a way that might counteract the aggressive campaign of the advocates of Prop 8? Did he record a robocall that countered the “deceitful” one, or issue a very public condemnation of the robocall and other material put out by the advocates of Prop 8?

    No. He did nothing himself — and his campaign only, in the least publicly visible way possible, asserted that Obama was opposed to Prop 8.

    Given the closeness of the election, I have no doubt that had Obama made an emphatic public statement of his own claimed position, Prop 8 would have gone down in defeat.

    And there’s exactly no doubt in my mind that he didn’t do this because he wanted to run up the numbers in the election. It was not even plausibly an issue of political “safety” — as if that would have excused his moral obligation in any case — he was up 6-10 pts in the polls and was for all practical purposes measuring the drapes in the WH.

    In the end, and as always, it was all about Obama and his adoration by the crowd.

  94. boston boomer-I so agree…..Sean is my special sweety-if only he played for my team!

  95. I think I’ll call up my county clerk and ask if I can exchange my straight marriage license for a gay one. That way we’re automatically divorced. Lot cheaper than filing.

  96. Palin on w/Greta Monday night. I hope she says a big “Thanks, but no thanks” to Oprah.

    RD, we have been very disappointed in the Prop. 8 thing. I told my partner Amy before Tues. that the big turnout of AA’s in CA would elect Obama in CA and pass Prop. 8. Ironic? You bet. GLBT’s are the ugly step-children. We ‘choose” to be gay so we’re an abomination. Right. Like who would “choose” to be different? Cause we want to be looked down upon, and live our lives in secret? Look, oppression is oppression, because of your sex, your skin color, sexual orientation, disability, whatever. But I guess once you don’t feel oppressed any longer, to hell with those left behind. We’ll just have to deal with it.

    Amy says if we had settled for “civil unions” instead of “marriage” maybe we wouldn’t have had these defeats. Maybe. I just know, we have taken some huge steps backward in equality for women and GLBT people during this election. And it makes me very sad.

  97. As far as the concept that AAs are more “oppressed” than GLBTs, it’s useful to think about the following question:

    The American public has just elected a Black President. Do you think they might have equally well elected a GLBT President (with, say, a same sex partner) at this time?

    I think we know the answer to that question. So claiming that AAs bear the brunt of the greatest prejudice in contemporary America is going to be a little hard to make out.

  98. Frankly:

    Gays, and atheists (and women) are at the bottom of the barrel when it comes to the high opinion of the American people.

  99. I think all us GLBT’s, atheists and women should keep our tax money, since it is obvious we’re 2nd class citizens, and they really don’t want our tainted money. I’ll be glad to keep my paltry little bit. Since my partner can’t be on my health insurance, that money can used for that when she retires. Works for me. Think they’ll come and put me in jail?

  100. lillam: that has got to be the weirdest non-sequitor of a comment that I have ever read. LOL
    Downticket- it could be that I identify with smug knowitalls.

  101. Griffithinc,

    It’s never wise to settle for less. That is what women have done forever and ever. Until we are all free and equal, none of us are.

  102. Oprah invites Palin? Oh pahleeze. She refused to have Palin and Hillary on her show during the elections. Saying something about not using her show for politics? Are you serious, Oprah? You inserted yourself into politics when you endorsed and campaigned for Obama. Refusing to have Hillary and Palin on during elections was the height of irresponsibility. I hope now both Hillary and Palin tell Oprah to take a very long hike.

    I can not believe we’re still talking about Palin’s clothes. I conducted an experiment today. I asked several of my co-workers, all Obamabots, to explain to me Obama’s plans for Iraq. I received puzzled looks. Obama’s plans for the economy? A few “hmms” and “aahhhs” followed. I asked them how much Palin’s clothes cost. They all knew the grand total. And that’s journalism in a nutshell for you.

  103. I’m with you RD, Pierce Brosnan. He was Bond before he was ever cast as Bond. Just something natural about his fit there.

    I love Sean Connery too, but Brosnan…

  104. simofish; I am one of those people who are very happy for AAs for overcoming a huge cultural barrier with the help of the rest of the country. I was profoundly moved and don’t feel guilty about it. But what happened with prop 8 and prop 2 in FL demonstrates to me that Obama is no leader. Instead of pushing forward against bigotry he benefitted by exploiting it.

  105. ugsome: LOL!

  106. You know, we’ve talked this to death, but I’ve always thought this thing should be called “civil agreements”. If you don’t want to be “Married” as in a church, your union is a “civil” one. Now it shouldn’t matter if that “civil” agreement is with a man a women, opposite sex or same sex. It is an agreement, on paper with this other person. If you are “religious” go get married in a church and call yourself married, but according to the law, you still have to have this “civil” piece of paper for it to be legal. I believe that the whole arguement against gays getting “married” has been a religious one. Well fine. I don’t want to be joined in your church, I just want a piece of paper that guarentees that my partner has say over what happens to me if I’m sick or disabled, and that she gets all my stuff when I die and vice versa. Why is that so hard for people to deal with? Also, if marriage is goddammed sacred, why do straight people get to do it more than once? Shouldn’t that sacred thing be limited to one time?

  107. Good afternoon Conflucians!

    I’m sneezing my head off with allergies which makes typing (and everything else) a chore.

    Good post RD – as always!

  108. I just came from Violet’s. RD. Why does this whole thing feel so bad. It just feels bad — for months now — and now?
    Half the country is in celebratory madness mode and the other is out protesting, and women are watching in stunned silence — after the effing savagery towards Hillary and Sarah.


    There was a really great piece for us from Bud — he writes for NQ — it was about a guy who cried for what women must be going through right now — so here that is:


    I am so sick of the free pass vs the utter cruelty after all that has happened, all we have witnessed.

  109. Just a note to RD: David Shaw essentially invented “program trading” and hedge funds when he worked at Morgan Stanley.

  110. propertius: Given what I know of his computational and biochemical modeling, I can well believe it. It sounds like a natural transition. I know of a couple people, women in both cases, who were approached by his group after they got their PhDs in computational chemistry techniques. Given what I know of their backgrounds, it made perfect sense that he would want to hire them. One of them turned him down. I’m not sure what happened to the other one.

  111. vbonnaire: I know there is great sadness. I feel torn myself. I couldn’t help but respond to what happened on Tuesday. Even though I loathe Obama, I was ecstatic for us as a nation that we took a giant step towards putting the past behind us when it comes to slavery and the bitterness of segregation. I was intensely happy. And the weird thing is that I’m going to be dancing in the streets during the inauguration too. I can’t help it. It seems like I’ve been waiting for it all my life.
    But I can’t help but be majorly pissed off that Obama accomplished it on the backs of women and gay people. That sullies the triumph quite a bit. We have to really press on him now to recognize the rest of us. That’s what we expect from a leader.

  112. Just a reminder that 3 out of 10 AA’s in California voted against Prop 8. They are our allies and should be honored as such.

    Unrelated – there is another loud Obama celebration in my neighborhood, and I think I am going to puke.

  113. Battlecat: Go with it. There is precious little to celebrate in this election season. Enjoy the fact that the nation got over the color barrier. It really is important and noteworthy and you’ll feel better when you let yourself experience the good stuff. Try to put out of your mind how it was accomplished and by whom and just enjoy the moment It will pass all too quickly after the inauguration.

  114. The passage of Proposition 8 in California, that defines marriage as between only a man and a woman, is the unpredictable fallout of the Obama victory.

    I echo others who have said this was not an unpredictable outcome. The very scenario that happened was being predicted long before election day.

  115. “I strongly suspect that a lot of those expensive N-M clothes and accessories are currently hanging in the closets of of former Palin aides who went shopping for themselves on the GOP dime.

    The technical term is “embezzlement””

    This is exactly what I thought when it was reported that Sarah Palin had taken “all the clothes, even those that didn’t fit.”

    Someone should go through the closets of those campaign aides.

  116. This NEVER would have happened if the people had elected McCain!

    Oh wait…

  117. It was not the “unpredictable fallout” of the Obama campaign. Gary and I had been warning of this the whole time. Obama’s faith and values tour with ugly homophobes like Douglas Kmiec, Donnie Mckurklin and his “gospel tour” in the primaries were obviously a pander to black evangelicals to vote Obama. Obama is a homophobe, surprise, surprise!

  118. Hi {{Mawm}} I agree that it was predictable — at least by people who paid attention to what Obama said and did.

    ** I’m so happy to see you! **

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