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Misogyny: A Juxtaposition of Different but Eerily Analogous Events

Reported without further comment:

Nov. 3 (Bloomberg)— A 13-year-old rape victim in Somalia was stoned to death last week after being accused of adultery in breach of Islamic law, Amnesty International said, citing her father and other unidentified people.

Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was killed by a group of 50 men in a stadium in the southern port of Kismayo on Oct. 27 in front of 1,000 spectators, the London-based human rights group said in an e-mailed statement on Oct. 31. Yusuf Abdi Mohamed, who witnessed the execution, told Bloomberg News on Oct. 28 that Duhulow was a 23-year-old woman who had confessed to adultery.

“She had in fact been raped by three men and had attempted to report this rape to the al-Shabaab militia, which controls Kismayo,” Amnesty said. “It was this act that resulted in her being accused of adultery and detained. None of the men she accused of rape was arrested.”

More from Bloomberg:

Sheikh Hayakalah, the Sharia court judge, said in remarks broadcast on Radio Shabelle, a Mogadishu-based broadcaster, that Duhulow had officially confirmed her guilt and was “happy with the punishment under Islamic law.”

“In contradiction to this claim, a number of eyewitnesses have told Amnesty International she struggled with her captors and had to be forcibly carried into the stadium,” Amnesty said.

The Guardian adds more details:

Amnesty International said al-Shabab militia, which controls the southern city of Kismayo, arranged for 50 men to stone Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow in front of about 1,000 spectators. A lorry load of stones was brought to the stadium for the killing.

Amnesty said Duhulow struggled with her captors and had to be forcibly carried into the stadium.

“At one point during the stoning, Amnesty International has been told by numerous eyewitnesses that nurses were instructed to check whether Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was still alive when buried in the ground. They removed her from the ground, declared that she was, and she was replaced in the hole where she had been buried for the stoning to continue,” the human rights group said. It continued: “Inside the stadium, militia members opened fire when some of the witnesses to the killing attempted to save her life, and shot dead a boy who was a bystander.”

________________________________________________________________________

Meanwhile, in the “civilized” United States of America, New York Senator Hillary Clinton was severely punished for the crime of running for the Democratic nomination for President. She was forced to make 70 appearances for the man who “defeated” her with fewer votes and who stole her delegates in order to “win.” Her career was destroyed and her reputation severely damaged when she refused to drop out of the race for the nomination. She and her family members, along with her millions of supporters, were publicly smeared and derided. She was threatened with being permanently ostrasized by her party and losing her Senate seat if she did not ensure her opponent’s election. Now that she has helped to get her opponent elected, she will continue to pay for her crime with a lifetime of penance. She is fortunate to live in a country where women cannot be stoned to death–for now.

Boston Boomer (speaking for myself only)

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198 Responses

  1. Boston,

    I don’t believe Senator Clinton’s career is destroyed. This New Yorker will be voting for her when she runs for reelection to the senate (and hopefully for President, in 2012).

    -MS

  2. We’ve got Islamic influences going on…in Somalia and Kenya…

    And we’ve got LOADS of stuff happening today…
    at IA…a new one from KENOSHA MARGE….

    The Incredible Shrinking Democratic Party

    and the latests scanner which delves into Islamic Finance at our Treasury, Harvard, etc…..

    The SCANNER-Politics 11/7/08: Newsweek Editors on Charlie Rose in the SCARIEST Description of Obama So Far…(Video/Partially Transcripted); Sharia Hits the Treasury Department/HARVARD Alert!; Hill the Shill

    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com

  3. PSV – I agree, she will be permitted to keep her seat. But what influence will she really have? What Barack Obama gives her. Clearly, he is not a fan.

    (Great post, BB.)

  4. ParkSlopeVoter,

    That really wasn’t the point of this post, but I do not believe Hillary Clinton will ever run for President again. What party would nominate her. Surely you are not suggesting that the Democratic Party would?

  5. Heidi Li has a post linking to petition to make Hillary majority leader.
    http://tdg.typepad.com/heidi_lis_potpourri/2008/11/the-drum-beat.html

  6. How was Clinton “forced” to campaign for her former rival? Her career was “destroyed?” And you liken Clinton’s plight to a poor girl being brutally murdered under Islamic law?

    This is to be taken at face value?

  7. Yes, exactly. If we allow misogyny at any level anywhere in the world we will not overcome and some of us will not survive. The article made me cry and made me think of Hillary’s speech.

    We need to begin fighting for change in our own back yard.

  8. madamab,

    I’m sure she will be reelected to the Senate, but Hillary will never be President. Furthermore, she has been forced to publically humiliate herself to atone for being robbed of the nomination and being painted as a racist and a woman who had no qualifications beyond her connection to her husband. I find these two event, while dramatically differnt to be eerily analogous.

  9. Whether or not her career is destroyed is moot. What was done to her by her own party is the issue.

  10. BB – I think you meant to address Brad Mays with that comment.

    🙂

  11. From AOS, Republican bumperstickers:

    “I’d rather be bitching about Hillary”

    “Think dissent is patriotic now?”

    my fave:

    “National Unity My Butt”

  12. ….not only that but Obama and his supporters has completely erased the talk of misogyny in this society.

  13. Brad,

    My post is intended to shock. I’m glad I succeeded with you. You are free to take it however you wish. The post expresses something I feel very deeply and strongly about misogyny.

  14. openleft has a petition to Obama not to appoint Larry (women are dumb) Summers to treasury. Good luck with that, s8ckers.

  15. No, I meant to echo your comment, and continue my response to PSV, madamab. Did I say something that offended you? If so, it certainly wasn’t intended.

  16. cbn – Nothing succeeds like success. If you attack the woman, you win. Such are the lessons of Election 2008.

    We have a lot of work to do, folks.

  17. Brad, I doubt that BB wanted us to take this at face value. in my experience people here question everything. When someone – such as BB – sees a connection, maybe tenuous, I do not assume automatically that she’s wearing her tin-foil hat.

    I agree that it is disturbing how Hillary seemed to cave in to BO and then come out and support him. But do you not feel she suffered very real attacks simply because she was a woman, attacks that no man in that position would have suffered? And how do we know how we would behave in the face of such a sustained onslaught?

  18. Brad,

    I think the message here is that what may seem like an inappropriate comparison is not if one looks at it from the point of view that any mysogyny can lead to violent expressions of it. Women in the 60’s in Afghanistan were not covered by burkha’s. As the Taliban kept winning and gaining ground bit by bit the supression of women became stronger and stronger until it reached today’s proportions.

    If, as a leader (BO) we look the other way and often actually instigate the mysogyny, we will see it not only expressed in the political arena and in the media, but in everyday life as well. Domestic violence, rape, and other crimes against women will increase along with discrimination at every level.

  19. Based on what happened in this election, Sen. Clinton’s career is pretty much over. If she is lucky enough to retain her seat (I do believe that the Obamacrats will run someone against her) she will never be able to run for President again. Two reasons, Obama will run for re-election no matter how disasterous his first term, and if re-elected by the time he is done with his second term she will be considered too old. Look what happened to McCain about his age. Do you think it will be easier for Sen. Clinton as a woman?

  20. BB – No, I wasn’t offended!

    I do agree with your post, though. I’m not sure how much more metaphorical stoning we will allow our prominent women politicians to experience before it becomes real. We saw that a lot of violent language and images against women were perfectly permissible this year. It’s a very slippery slope from words to actions.

  21. What’s a few stoned to death women compared to keeping Arnold’s Hummers running? (Obvious pun avoided)
    This G-d person has quite the sense of humor putting energy supplies under the lands of people who practice a Bronze age superstition that believes in the stoning to death of women for perceived wrongs. Then It gets to watch our government leaders pander to them, hat in hand.
    The gleeful misogyny of the Obama supporters doesn’t bode well for woman’s rights.
    When you female Obama supporters are told “Be a dear, sweetie, run and get us coffee and donuts” at your next managers meeting don’t cry to me. Just be glad the guy didn’t pat you on the butt on your way out the door … yet.

  22. Clinton has my vote for 2010, 2012, whenever she wants it.

  23. Boston,

    I just have such very high regard for Senator Clinton that I had to respond to your remark that her career was destroyed.

    As to what party would place her name in nomination? Well, here and in other like-minded blogs, I see calls for a third party. This is a concept which I’ve never (EVER) taken seriously. But PUMA has taken on a quite serious role in my life. Can you ENTIRELY discount this option? I hope yoour answer is “no.”

    -MS

  24. Where was openleft when Obama picked the man who gave us Clarence Thomas for the Supreme Court for his running mate?

    Oh yeah, at the Church of Obama playing crickets.

    Clinton will surely have her NY seat for as long as she wants, but more than that is unlikely. Although she did more to win this nomination for him than any other Democrat, Obama wouldn’t even appoint her dogcatcher.

  25. Ah, thank you!

    In response to this piece of shit published in April:
    http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080428/COLUMNIST0108/804280334/1008/OPINION01

    I wrote this at the time and sent it to the editor. I never heard from them:

    I read your article today and I’m holding my nose while
    writing to you. How, in which country, in which world, on which planet is it O.K. that a newspaper refers to a sitting US Senator as a “tick” to be pulled away with a tweezer”? Shame on you Saritha Prabhu, and shame on you The Tenessean. Why should Hillary Clinton quit – i.e., apart from the discomfort she’s causing you by winning, by raising money, by being the only presidential candidate to actually have a mandate to improve this country and policies that are sensible, humane and thought-out? What on earth is the logic
    for asking her to even consider quitting, forget this huge compelling call to action where the ‘elders must pull her away’? From what? And for what?

    This is exactly the kind of logic that people give before an honor killing: ‘die, die, die quickly so we may save our family pride; die quickly so your father can hold
    his head high again; kill her quickly, burn her before our neighbours see her as our weakness’. Before a fresh widow was burnt to death in a practice known as Sati a hundred years ago in the East, her extended family & community would sit with her for a few hours in an enclosed room, drug her and beat their breasts and wail out lodly, recounting anecdotes from the girls’
    life where she had done something wrong, maybe overcooked a meal, where she had eaten more food in a meal than her brother or her husband, where her
    sister-in-laws had brought in more dowry than she had, where she had not been properly submissive to a man. The purpose, of course, of those few hours, was to make the woman feel so horribly useless, so unutterably guilty, to break her spirit so badly – that then, she would walk herself to the pyre where her
    husband burnt.

    No, don’t open your mouth in horror at ‘Third World practices in the 19th Century’. What Saritha Prabhu’s done today, what The Tennesean has contributed to today, is merely one more voice in that community wailing, the precursor to Hillary Clinton’s honor killing.

  26. Hey, don’t forget the Rahm Emmanuel was on the Board of Directors of Fanny Mae.

  27. Valhala said:

    “Although she did more to win this nomination for him than any other Democrat, Obama wouldn’t even appoint her dogcatcher.”

    Good!!! Because I wouldn’t want to see her in a position subservient to him – NOT NEVER!

    -MS

  28. I do not believe that the Clinton’s will be involved in a third party .. ever.

    It’s a fantasy..imo. They are dems .. also as a practical matter … I think She has made it pretty clear that ‘unless’ something catastrophic happens she will not run again period ….. for Pres. that is . I tend to believe her … I also believe the Clinton’s age is a factor .. starting a ‘new movement’ .. a new third party – .. is just not in the cards … my thoughts only….

  29. madamab

    Tables turn. If Obama is as bad as we think he’ll be, who says that he will be the one to yield the influence in a couple months time. The ones we really need to worry about are Pelosi and Reid. Sadly, didn’t Pelosi win her seat back in a landslide. We REALLY need to do something about her.

  30. I don’t think Hillary was forced to campaign for Obama but I think she needed to do this to clear her name of the racist smears. By campaigning she showed she wasn’t a racist. I wonder if Hillary would have fought at the convention had Obama not been an AA. The threat of AA leaving the Democratic party was enough to get her to quit. I think Hillary’s career is over in the sense that she won’t get to accomplish many of the issues she has fought for. The Clintons are really hated by the leaders of the Democratic party. Hillary has no influence and she will have to fight hard to get re-elected for her senate seat.

    Re-Somalian victim. I read about this 5 days ago on Alegre’s site and was left in shock. Which parent would give away their 13 year old child to get married to some old man? How can anyone think that a 13 year old would commit adultery? Women are really the second class citizens of the world. why didn’t this girl’s family fight harder to prevent the stoning of this young girl.

  31. From NY Times editorial (not sure what day):

    “Showing extraordinary focus and quiet certainty, Obama swept away one political presumption after another to defeat first Hillary Clinton, WHO WANTED TO BE PRESIDENT SO BADLY SHE LOST HER BEARINGS, and then John McCain, who forsook his principles for a campaign built on anger and fear.”

    This from the paper that let Judith Miller push the Iraq war.

  32. Thanks, madamab! I was just trying to converse with you, because you *got* what I was trying to say. In a nutshell, my point is that women are often punished when they are actually the victims of male violence–real or metaphorical–while the men go on their merry way.

  33. BB,

    I have been extremely sickened that there has not been outrage expressed in this country over what happened to this child. I see the point that you are making and it is a powerful one. Like a dose of stone cold reality concerning the position of women.

  34. bostonboomer –

    Sorry, I wasn’t shocked by your post. I just don’t think it was up to your usual standard of excellence.

  35. I am sad for that poor girl and am grateful that we have it better here but does this story get anyone else thinking about how rape victims don’t like to come forward because they know they will face accusations of “they asked for it.” Our country is only a little better than the Islamic countries. We don’t stone women literally but we certainlyu do so figuratively.

  36. Briana – I don’t think age would affect Hillary starting a new party. The main purpose of that party would be to bring in people who are partless and don’t feel they belong in any party that exists now. Hillary would help that party grow so that when she retired, another generatin would take over. The time is right for a new party. Hillary will never be president but she can help start up a new party based on the real democratic principles.

  37. Cwaltz – Digby bloggers were upset yesterday about Pelosi’s comment that Democrats are going to govern from the center and they want her head. My guess is if Barack wants her, she stays, and since she handed him the nomination on a silver platter, she’s safe.

  38. I really think that what this election has exposed is an underlying fissure in how politics has been conducted over identity issues for many decades.

    What the Obama side has been able to take advantage of is the perception that “bigotry” is a binary thing. One either is a bigot, or one isn’t. There is no real nuance here: one can’t be a bigot against one type of person, but not against another.

    This is why they have been able to get away with misogyny. It’s why AAs can vote down, in resounding numbers, equality for GLBT with no real public outrage. Because, whenever one demands how they could engage in such obviously bigoted behavior, it suffices culturally and politically to demonstrate that they are supporting an AA, or are themselves AAs, and therefore can’t be in any important way bigoted.

    That’s the politics of it, as it stands in today’s culture.

    But I expect that to break down. Women will come in time to see — even Obama supporters — that they can suffer under discrimination and disrespect even at the hands of a supporter of an AA President, as well as AAs themselves. And I think it’s going to take no time at all for most GLBTs to realize what the eye-popping numbers of AAs who voted for Prop 8 means for any alliance they might have with AAs. (I wonder how the Hollywood elite, with so many GLBTs in their number, think of this outcome? I’d like to hear what Obama supporter No 1 in Hollywood, David Geffen, is thinking about that at this time. I wonder if he thinks his stupid snit with the Clintons may have been pretty small compared to the consequence of an Obama Presidency and an Obama coalition).

    I predict that when people realize that bigotry isn’t binary, and they start realizing that each group and each person must fight for their own rights, the Obama coalition — which is now the Democratic coalition — will become unraveled.

  39. Briana,

    I agree with you. I would love for us to be proven wrong, but I don’t think we will be.

  40. ParkSlopeVoter, on November 7th, 2008 at 11:30 am Said:

    Boston,

    I just have such very high regard for Senator Clinton that I had to respond to your remark that her career was destroyed.

    As to what party would place her name in nomination? Well, here and in other like-minded blogs, I see calls for a third party. This is a concept which I’ve never (EVER) taken seriously. But PUMA has taken on a quite serious role in my life. Can you ENTIRELY discount this option? I hope your answer is “no.”
    ______________________________________________________

    PSV – please let’s keep asking this question. I feel this is not the hour to be overly “realistic”. The President of the Czech Republic Vaclav Havel wrote – somewhere – about hope without expectation. I do not expect Hillary to run or to be able to run in 2012. I hope. I do not expect a woman approximating Hillary’s talents, vision, experience and integrity to run for a third party. I hope. I do not want to be a pathetic dreamer. But neither do I want to be a realist without hope. Politics is the art of the possible. If BO showed us nothing else he showed us that.

  41. Hey, boston,

    I *got* what you were trying to say too. Some of us men would appreciate it, tho’ if you didn’t generalize about us quite so much.

    Thanks for your consideration…

    -MS

  42. I think it is a pipe dream to believe Clinton is going to start a new party. I believe she would have done so if she was going to. For some reason or another she has chosen to stay with the party. I’m saddened by it but I accept it.

  43. Boston, thank you for the post, even though it made me weep.

    I don’t know what the difference is in the physical murder, soul murder, psychological murder, spiritual murder, emotional murder of women simply because they are women. Patriarchal systems worldwide are systems of insanity – no matter how “civilized” they appear. That appearance is an illusion – the system is sick at its core and I don’t believe that it can ever be rehabilitated.

  44. Digby bloggers- should have been paying attention. This is no big shock for anyone other than the delusional who thought that Obama would herald in a new era.

  45. PSV,

    I wasn’t making any kind of a generalization about men. I drew an analogy between two specific situations.

  46. ParkSlopeVoter –

    I didn’t see BB’s post as a generalization about men. I just saw it as intellectually imprecise. I’m usually very impressed with her writing.

  47. I believe Pelosi is the one pulling the strings. I don’t think she is going anywhere because she is one of the puppeteers.

    On DIgby posters, have they been out of the country,…….the war…..FISA….allowing a condemnation of Moveon……..when has Pelosi governed left? I mean geez, a little intellectual honesty with THEMSELVES might be a good thing on thier part.

  48. boston,

    OK, perhaps I was being a bit overly sensitive. I really do think we’re on the same side, tho’.

    -MS

  49. Thank you, Delphyne. I think the system can and will change. I have seen a lot of progress in women’s social status in my lifetime. What is sad about what happened in this election campaign is that I think that progress has been seriously eroded.

    Almost every time a very big barrier has to be broken down, the person who breaks it has to go through a lot of anguish. For example, what happened to Jackie Robinson when he broke the color barrier in baseball. But just imagine what would happen to a woman who wanted to be a professional baseball player!

    The surprising thing this election year is that Barack Obama didn’t go through anything like what happened to Jackie Robinson. He was helped along the way by the media, the corporate power structure, the leaders of the Democratic Party, and even women’s groups who rejected Hillary Clinton.

    I do not think I will live to see a woman President of the U.S. That makes me feel both sad and angry.

  50. My comments disappeared!
    BB, thank you for this….

    I’d written this back in April to a newspaper. I never heard from them:

    I read your article today and I’m holding my nose while
    writing to you. How, in which country, in which world, on which planet is it O.K. that a newspaper refers to a sitting US Senator as a “tick” to be pulled away with a tweezer”? Shame on you Saritha Prabhu, and shame on you The Tenessean. Why should Hillary Clinton quit – i.e., apart from the discomfort she’s causing you by winning, by raising money, by being the only presidential candidate to actually have a mandate to improve this country and policies that are sensible, humane and thought-out? What on earth is the logic
    for asking her to even consider quitting, forget this huge compelling call to action where the ‘elders must pull her away’? From what? And for what?
    This is exactly the kind of logic that people give before an honor killing: ‘die, die, die quickly so we may save our family pride; die quickly so your father can hold
    his head high again; kill her quickly, burn her before our neighbours see her as our weakness’. Before a fresh widow was burnt to death in a practice known as Sati a hundred years ago in the East, her extended family & community would sit with her for a few hours in an enclosed room, drug her and beat their breasts and wail out lodly, recounting anecdotes from the girls’
    life where she had done something wrong, maybe overcooked a meal, where she had eaten more food in a meal than her brother or her husband, where her
    sister-in-laws had brought in more dowry than she had, where she had not been properly submissive to a man. The purpose, of course, of those few hours, was to make the woman feel so horribly useless, so unutterably guilty, to break her spirit so badly – that then, she would walk herself to the pyre where her
    husband burnt.
    No, don’t open your mouth in horror at ‘Third World practices in the 19th Century’. What Saritha Prabhu’s done today, what The Tennesean has contributed to today, is merely one more voice in that community wailing, the precursor to Hillary Clinton’s honor killing.

  51. On the digby bloggers … I actually read one say .. ‘he’ .. Obama – owes us nothing .. !

    I read other posts in different places where the stepford Obama supporters were saying the same exact thing …..

    gee … I always thought accountability to voters was important . .. . I seem to be living in a time warp ..

  52. “We have to choose our priorities” and decide “what is achievable,” Pelosi told reporters this morning, adding: “A lot of it is about time.” She saied that the current economic conditions and budget deficit “are going to make it harder” to do some big things dear to Democrats, like comprehensive health care reform, but said that smaller, “discrete,” initiatives, i.e. SCHIP and stem cell funding, could be done quickly.

    – Nancy Pelosi

    http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/11/05/1651482.aspx

  53. Digby posters have a problem with Pelosi’s comments?

    Man, delusional is too good a word for this.

    Let’s recap history here just a little bit, OK? It’s pretty basic.

    A year or so ago, Pelosi was anathema to the Digby posters as well of course as the DKos posters (being really one and the same) because she refused to take progressive stands — i.e., was ruling from the center.

    Then she became a shameless shill for Obama. Suddenly, she was a politician of tremendous skill, integrity, and vision.

    Then Obama is elected, and she announces she is going to go on as before, governing from the center.

    Now, the outrage! The horrors! The humanity!

    I think we can now say that the Democratic Party has wrested from the Republicans the title of The Stupid Party.

  54. Downticket … knew it .. health care… We ALL knew it .. “under the bus “…

    thanks for your early confirmation of it . ;(

  55. Reposted from downstairs:

    Hiya, again, miyq!

    I’ve been thinking about this for several days. I don’t know if it’s politically good or bad but I think that we have to establish a federation. If we have a series of groups each working toward a particular goal, we can come to together when our issues overlap but we won’t feel as though we’re wasting our time or swimming against the tide when they don’t.

    There are several reasons that I’ve come to this conclusion. One was the response of gary and mawm to this election. They’re fierce foes of misogyny and I share their allegiance to the glbt rights but issues like Prop 8 just aren’t the stab in the gut to me that I sense they are to gays and lesbians. I would prefer to direct my energies toward misogyny in the media but I would be happy to support gary and mawm publicly when they face issues like Prop 8 and I loved having their support in the face of the overwhelming gyno-hatred.

    Another reason is urgetocompute’s comment on Palin. I support her totally as a woman and would vote for her as part of the 30% solution but I would prefer to have strong women Democratic, Independent or Green candidates. I went to Palin’s website yesterday and was rather horrified to see a quote that says that a woman can be a “feminist and be feminine” featured on the first page. I heartily believe that but it’s not as inclusive as I am in my feminist ideals. I include feminist men, and any woman who sees herself as a feminist in those ideals.

    Perhaps, as a series of smaller groups, committing ourselves to discrete goals, we can maintain an umbrella organization that is capable of coming together to support one another on particular issues while not forcing people to expend time, energy and money on goals which they don’t share.

    Does this sound like a concept we can work with or something that would dilute our PUMA power?

    Leave a Reply

  56. Brad Mays, I fail to see what is intellectually dishonest about BB’s post. The gist of her reasoning seems to be that in some regions of the world woman are subject to extreme and lethal violence for “crimes” that men are not subject to; that Hillary Clinton suffered extreme misogyny during this election campaign; that in the US women are not put to death for “crimes” for which men are not put to death; that this situation could change. While her examples are extreme, and her conclusion maybe alarmist, what is it about the argument that is intellectually dishonest.?

  57. While it is evident that our all-inclusive coalition – united against Obama, but not necessarily mandating a vote for McCain – held no sway in this election, I still wonder about our actual numbers. How many are there in the Just Say No Deal coalition – PUMA or otherwise – e.g., moderate Republicans, Independents and undecided voters who connected with our ranks? I’ve heard estimates varying between 2.5 and 5 million. (I am assuming that either is a guess since no survey has actually been done; and quite a range that is, indeed.)

    How many of us voted McCain rather than abstaining or voting 3rd party this time around? What percentage of that constituted swing-state votes? What is the exact percentage of our influence in each swing state?

    It Karl Rove’s map would have indicated that McCain had the states Bush had leading up to Nov. 4, we might have pushed things over the top for McCain/Palin. Who knows? We sure don’t.

    Yet conservative analysts are now saying for their part that the Evangelicals did not come out. I doubt if that is 100% true in every case. Yet…any word on what was said during the closed meetings Obama held with that group around the time the Dem primary finally ended? Time and events may offer a clue.

    As PUMAS – or dissenters, in general – we need to be a lot more stealth. Our opponents sure were.

  58. Okay, this is a ramble and much too long. But this is what I woke up feeling and thinking this morning. This is my open letter to all the major media and their corporate backers, to all the people who used sexist slander in this year’s election campaign and substituted silly and fake twitter for real reporting and honest campaigning (I know. I know. That is an oxymoron.).

    Stop! Stop the oppressive techniques now! Stop the bigoted, disgusting, belittling, and sexist tactics you’re using against women. Stop the oppression. Stop it now.
    Stop the verbal rape attacks that have been rampant against women solely because they are women daring to compete for the highest office in our land. Stop, you cowardly persons who carried out these attacks rather than fighting as if you were running against another man (which has been gentle jousting, by the way, even with such things as the Swift Boat attacks against Kerry). And women who also repeated the talking points even though they were possibly hurting their selves, stop!

    Stop hurting your mothers, your grandmothers, your wives, your girlfriends, your daughters, your sisters, your nieces, your aunts, your granddaughters. Stop using excuses to belittle their accomplishments. Stop calling them body parts. Stop using imagined insults to your “honor” to kill your wives and daughters. Stop! God could not possibly be pleased with you for doing this. Stop forcing women into subjugation! Stop! And this means you, some American evangelicals (my faith as well), Catholics, Muslims, and whatever group tries to diminish the full role of women in society. Stop! Women who have been brainwashed into believing slavery of women is right, stop! Women who have been brainwashed into the “Stockholm Syndrome,” stop! Women who have voted for a candidate solely because they fear that Roe v. Wade might be undermined and are willing to sacrifice their human dignity with filthy “c__t” tee shirts, and so forth, stop! In places where the butchering of women’s personal parts is customary, stop! Women, stop your complicity in this! In places that condone stoning of women, stop! Women, stop your complicity in it!

    Stand up and speak out against what the American media, what the Democratic and Republican campaigners have done and are doing to slander Hillary, Sarah, and women in general. Stop laughing at the slander as though it were funny! (Of course you have slandered women to divide them and some women have betrayed others, but stop!) (Women, don’t permit phrases that dismiss you, such as that of Rahm Emmanuel’s “they’ll go back to their knitting,” the numerous media slanders, and Obama’s many subtle and overt slanders. Stop the verbal and physical intimidation. Stop the childish snickering, smirking, and ridicule. Men, look at the videos of your own comments such as, “She sounds like my wife telling me to take the garbage out” or oogling by an MSNBC anchor. Look at the belittling of Sarah because she is attractive and attempts to make her sound like a slut. Optical hints of boys looking up her skirt while she stands on the podium. Investigating everything about Sarah’s life and leaving Obama’s mysteries untouched. Nasty tee-shirts about Sarah and Hillary. Belittling Sarah’s mistakes but not Obama’s (57 states and other mistakes) and his atrocious usage and gestures with “99 problems and a bitch…” His and others’ ancient stereotypical sexist comments about the kitchen sink, menopause, suggestions that Hillary was deranged, emotional, exaggeration of her laugh as a croak, comparing her body parts to those of a Kentucky Fried Chicken, hints of cleavage, turning a barely visible wet eye into a full novel about “manipulative crying,” saying you wish she was attractive (even though she is!). Editing of Hillary’s and Sarah’s interviews to make them look bad. Deliberate contortions of what they said. It’s NOT FUNNY and it’s NOT innocent humor.

    Men, were you hatched? Even if you were, you would have received genes from two parents (unless you are a seahorse.) Why are you afraid of strong women? Is it because you are weak?

    Men, do some of you have long, ugly noses? Do some of you have body parts you would like to have ridiculed every day of your life? Have some of you easily been valedictorians of your high school, college, and yet had your intelligence belittled? Have some of you achieved great accomplishments at home, in work, and in society and yet seen others take credit for them? How many of you have been told to wait and wait until someone else got rights first?

    Where are the real men in this country and why don’t you speak up against the gender slander against women that we have just seen in this election and are continuing to see? We’re onto you and we know that we are not and never have been inferior intellectually or emotionally! Stop! Stop the worldwide oppression of women that has placed entire societies into deep poverty. Is it being fueled by corporate greed or what?

    Whatever happened to “honor they father AND THY MOTHER? Whatever happened to respect for all other human beings? Everyone does have frailties and that means you do, too, men!

    Women, don’t be stopped by this year’s horrid intimidation techniques. We can rise above a smirk. We can be tougher than ever.

    Women and girls, what has happened to some young women that they join in the filthy collusion of debasing themselves and others?

    And Hillary and Sarah, thank you for your enormous courage and sacrifices. Don’t let these bullies stop you or other women from running for the Presidency next time around. Don’t let the corporations or campaign tactics or the media’s collusion stop you (and American women) for the next 50 years. Keep running! Let’s defy oppression! The future of our society demands that we all stand up and stop the gender-slander tactics that were used in this year’s campaign (and that may well include the widespread voter intimidation and fraud).

    Stop the gender oppression! Stop. Stop. Stop. And, women, if it doesn’t stop, just keep running until we achieve full equality in the workplace, politics, and at home.

    Stop! Run! Go!

  59. Delphyne

    I agree that both murder and name-calling can be and often are expressions of misogyny. But each expression is the result of wildly varying psychological, cultural, emotional and even physiological factors which may or may not have anything to do with misogyny, as I’m sure BB knows all too well.

    I’m going to point out, for the sake of argument, that no one in here has addressed my question: “How was Clinton ‘forced’ to campaign for her former rival?”

    Personally, I think that Clinton did what so many dozens of other defeated potential nominees have done before her: plaster a smile on her face and support the party candidate. I’m sure it hurt like hell, but she was hardly “forced” into doing it.

  60. Comparing the merciless, heartless, humiliating, dreadful, ultra-ugly, public executions that go on daily in many Islamic and third-world countries with Hillary’s pathetic treatment has one big difference: Hillary could have told them to fuck themselves and stay out of the rest of the party, if she wanted to.

    I get probably why she stayed in (Bill’s already Monica-smeared legacy, staying powerful in Washington, etc.), but she still had the option of not letting them use and publicly humiliate her like that. Even the poor, horrified victim kept fighting through all of the excruciating public insanity and did not let the audience the satisfaction that she was “happy with the punishment under Islamic law.” Of course that did not stop the Islamic MSM from announcing that she finally psychologically buckled, because they need to keep women lower than swamp mud.

  61. kenosha marge on another site said…That G(reat) B(ritain) would accept Sharia Law is something I would have never believed would come to pass in the country that gave the world the Magna Carta. I cannot believe that the women of England will stand for this now that it’s out in the open.

    The women of the free world better quit their damn bickering over who is or is not a “feminist” and worry about crap like this. Or we’ll all find ourselves in bondage to the men in our lives as our grandmothers and other female ancestors were just a short time ago.This is scary stuff!
    ________________________________________________

    We HAVE to get over liberal and conservative and unite as women to overcome the misogyny that is out there. Sarah Palin my have conservative views, but can you imagine her condoning Sharia law in any way?

  62. urgetocompute –

    I didn’t say BB’s post was intellectually dishonest, did I? I said that is was intellectually imprecise. Quite a difference.

  63. Brad Mays – I don’t think Hillary was forced to campaign for Obama. I think she did it because she felt she needed to clear her name of the racist charges. She didn’t have to make 75 appearances but she did.

  64. I sure would like to know how Hillary lost her own free will, and
    HAD to campaign for the One? I think she made a terrible choice
    and now bears a part of the responsibility of putting a cheating
    fraud in the WH.

  65. get me out of moderation

  66. Hey everyone – as for a third party, I am not 100% positive Hillary won’t do this. Obviously before the election was not the time, but who knows what could be in two years, after the disaster that is Obama becomes abundantly clear?

    I am cogitating on this. We can certainly join Heidi Li in recommending Hillary for Senate Majority Leader. Doesn’t seem likely, but you never get anything without asking!

    But my little pea brain is also wondering if we could get Hillary and Sarah to do a high-profile endorsement of The New Agenda. You know, speak at their events, fundraise for them, and promote the 30% Solution.

    Two women who are ideological opposites speaking out for, and recruiting, other women in politics, might do a lot more than a third party ever could in the next short while.

    What do you all think?

  67. Brad,

    I see a direct connection. Women, without political power, are subject to being stoned. Of course, the actual stoning is the ultimate assault, but the virtual stonings that destroy the spirit of many women is a thriving custom in out modern society.
    It’s quite possible that if women were in power in this country, we could have the power and the will to stop the actual stonings of little girls in other countries. I have to say that if Hillary were the president, I KNOW there would be a phone call from the Oval Office to the leaders in Pakistan to register our horror and dismay at this event. Somehow, I don’t think Bush or Obama will bother.

  68. The story of the Somalian girl is a week old.
    This story and many others were buried beneath the Obama Drama

    People just aren’t paying attention.

    During this election Obama, the DNC, and the media declared open season on women by not denouncing the stories of hate and violence
    we witnessed every single day.

    The contempt will not just disintegrate and blow away.

    as madamab said, it’s a slippery slope indeed.

  69. celeste quoted kenosha marge:

    kenosha marge on another site said…That G(reat) B(ritain) would accept Sharia Law is something I would have never believed would come to pass in the country that gave the world the Magna Carta. I cannot believe that the women of England will stand for this now that it’s out in the open.

    “The women of the free world better quit their damn bickering over who is or is not a “feminist” and worry about crap like this. Or we’ll all find ourselves in bondage to the men in our lives as our grandmothers and other female ancestors were just a short time ago.This is scary stuff!”

    ——————————————————————-

    Ahh, kenosha marge (wherever you are), thanks for that good old fashioned Wisconsin common sense!

    -MS

  70. madamab,

    Who knows what we can accomplish if we continue to work together. We accomplished so much in just 5 months! I’m definitely open to a third party, and I certainly back Heidi Li’s efforts.

  71. JeanLouise –

    Your point:

    “I have to say that if Hillary were the president, I KNOW there would be a phone call from the Oval Office to the leaders in Pakistan to register our horror and dismay at this event. Somehow, I don’t think Bush or Obama will bother.”

    is an excellent one, obviously. A number of other responders in here have also made great observations which, alas, I feel should have been made in BB’s original post which, despite what I consider to be a few shortcomings, has nevertheless stimulated some great discussion (how’s that for a run-on, sloppily constructed sentence?).

  72. Karolina,

    I would love to have seen what would have happened if Hillary had fought on after her defeat was certain. I think we would have seen the misogyny escalate. I not sure I could have taken that, but I wish I knew for sure. But she is just one woman, and since her supporters were abandoning her, I can forgive her for quitting. I am very disappointed that she put so much energy into electing Obama, because I don’t think she believes him to be qualified. I think she owes us an explanation, as Lady Lynn said the other day.

  73. Chances of you getting an explanation have dropped to nothing so I’d lower my expectations considerably.

  74. Brad,

    ” A number of other responders in here have also made great observations which, alas, I feel should have been made in BB’s original post which, despite what I consider to be a few shortcomings, has nevertheless stimulated some great discussion (how’s that for a run-on, sloppily constructed sentence?).”

    48 words.
    1 Independent Clause.
    3 (or 4) Dependent Clauses.

    Yup. Run-on, fer’ sure… Sloppily constructed – no, you got your point across.

    -MS

  75. doctorate

    I think one of the reasons we still get trolls is because they know the movement could still be in its infant stages. In less than a year the coalition grew to over a million. Dkos didn’t get their agenda passed first go round and they have had failures. The thing is they just keep plugging. We need to do so as well. I said it in another post, I’d love to see a site similar to swing state, I’d like to see us have some type of 50 state blog strategy where we cover attempts to roll back equality. Furthermore we could use it to mobilize those last three states to get the ERA passed. It would require that we get a breakdown though and then volunteers to take on blogging issues state by state.

  76. Brad –

    If you really don’t see how Hillary was forced into doing what she did, here is how I see it:

    What Party would Hillary belong to if she said no, I won’t keep my promise, and I won’t campaign for Barack Obama? How would she explain being a Democrat and not supporting the Democratic nominee? Do you think she would get any money at all from the DNC if she refused, and are you under the illusion that she would not be primaried in 2012 – probably with an AA man in that case, since she is such a r*cist after all?

    If she switched parties before the election or went Independent, would it hurt, or help her husband’s legacy?

  77. brad: it’s a different type of brutality but see where BB is going with it. Women in this country now understand how little our culture values them. It wasn’t enough for Hillary to be cheated out of her nomination. No, she had to be held up as an example of what happens to women who challenge the power structure. A similar thing happened to Martha Stewart who also looked a little too successful. She spent more time in jail for a technicality than any of the Bush minions for all of their criminal behavior. It wasn’t enough to fine her. There had to be a public spectacle.
    Hillary may have saved her senate career but in the process, she has reinforced the idea that women need to be made to ‘heel’. It was a brutal choice she had to make and I seriously wish she had just said, “screw it. I’m not doing anymore than Dodd or Kucinich.”.
    And I agree that it is a slippery slope. In the 60’s, women of Afghanistan wire miniskirts. Now, purdah is the norm, not the exception. That is what war and economic hardship does to women. When conditions are brutal and resources scarce, the physically string will do as they please.
    In a way, the overt misogynism of the election cycle seems to be preparation for the upcoming recession. It will be so much easier to lay women off without penalty. No one will care or will be held accountable? See how it works? Betcha didn’t even think of that. As a single mom, I think about it all the time. My industry isn’t doing so well. We could be facing significant layoffs soon.

  78. I am especially incensed at the women and gays who supported Obama. Talk about voting against your own interests!

    I had one in my clinic yesterday, wearing a Vote for Change t-shirt. I almost told her to get rid of that f-ing thing or I wouldn’t see her, but I’m not the clinic owner. I did not restrain from telling her, when she complained about her medical insurance, that I was not expecting anything to change for better with a new president. After all, he changed his mind on FISA. “What’s FISA?” said the Obot. Typical f-ing Obot.

    Just like angie and many others, I’m using the f word a lot these days.

  79. celeste you make an excellent point:
    We HAVE to get over liberal and conservative and unite as women to overcome the misogyny that is out there. Sarah Palin my have conservative views, but can you imagine her condoning Sharia law in any way?
    ___________________________________________________
    women need to be on the same side, and now.

    Obama won by dividing us.
    I’m more angry at the HRC supporters who bailed than I am at HRC!

  80. Brad,

    My post was meant to be “bare bones,” because I thought it would stimulate a good discussion. I’ve always thought stimulating discussion was the point of most blog posts. I never spell out everything in my posts, because the discussion is what I enjoy most.

    As for your assertions that Hillary did what most opponents do after “losing,” I have two responses: 1) Hillary was cheated out of the nomination with vote-stealing, fraud, and intimidation during the caucuses–sometimes physical intimidation. 2) I have never seen another candidate who lost a party nomination in a very close fight turn around and campaign tirelessless for his opponent. Can you name a few who did that?

  81. With Obama’s record and history in Chicago, if he had been a white woman he would have been laughed off the political scene. I don’t care what speech a white woman might have given at a political convention, the press would not have jumped on her band wagon and pushed her relentlessly to the American people. Sarah Palin proves that point. She has more experience and accomplishments than Obama, yet the press ate her alive. Her gaffs on history were no worse than W’s gaffs – she certainly had more experience and accomplishments than he had – yet the press adopted him and certainly pushed him over Gore and Kerry.

  82. “if we could get Hillary and Sarah to do a high-profile endorsement of The New Agenda. You know, speak at their events, fundraise for them, and promote the 30% Solution.”

    Yes! I’d even donate to that, and after 11/4 I wasn’t going to ever do that again…..

  83. madamab
    maybe I’m confused
    HRC should be worried about her husband’s legacy??

  84. BB, I agree that if Hillary fought on it would have become an experiment in publicly performed Greek drama, but she could have dropped out of the race after the roll-call vote, and gone on to some OTHER important & very public, non-partisan work. This would have been an effective dramatic ending to her unjust treatment that would have highlighted the ugliness of the Obama campaign.

    I am keeping up with the blog-world as much as I can, but apparently missed who or where Lady Lynn is, and what she said the other day.

  85. BB, by campaigning for him 70+ Hillary excused the ugliness of Obama’s campaign.

  86. What I love most about Palin completely flew under the radar. No one ever advocates for the political “invisibles,” people who are disabled, for example. She promised parents of “children with special needs” that they would have an advocate in the White House. How many votes could this possibly get her? A handful here, a handful there? That was no politician, that was a genuine human being. She really cared about people. No wonder they loved her.

  87. brad, thank you so much for your pronuncements about BB’s intellectual abilities and honesty. What would we girls ever do with out you men? I wilt at the very thought.

    Women, want equality? Refuse to vote for any male again for anything untill we get it. Democrats would never ever in any state win a single election without the female vote. Withold it and see how quick things change. And that means no voting for the “good guys” either.

  88. catarina – Her husband is the last successful two-term Democratic President since FDR. If she jumped ship from the Party, am I wrong to think it would reflect poorly on Bill – a rejection of the Party he represented for 8 years?

    I may be wrong, but I think such a move would have been used to further smear and discredit Bill in the media. JMHO, of course.

  89. catarina

    I found what happened to Sarah more disturbing. Here is a bright and capable woman and they reduced her to a caricature. She couldn’t possibly be smart because she was pretty. She couldn’t possibly be a feminist because of her stance on abortion. It goes on and on. I am liberal but I feel what was done to Sarah was far worse than what was done to Hillary, at least Hillary got to keep her intellect, even if in doing so she got charged as being a witch with a capital B.

  90. Sorry, Karolina. Lady Lynn Forrester de Rothschild is a close friend and wealthy supporter of Hillary’s who stumped for McCain/Palin. She has appeared on TV often when she was supporting Hillary and later when she decided not to support Obama and went over to McCain.

  91. i am seriously going to fucking puke.

  92. Hillary needs to decide now if she wants to be part of the old boys club or fight for what she believes in even at the risk of losing her next election and her imaginary statis in the party.

  93. better than huffpost-dont’t give them traffic:

    together4us.com
    is lynn’s de rothschild’s site

  94. you keep pushing that Overton madamb. I don’t think it is going to happen but there is no hurt in trying to get her to take the political risk. She’d have what Lieberman has to look forward to though. She in all likelihood would be stripped of any real power within the Democratic party. that might mean she’d have to choose between her agenda and taking a stand.

  95. CWaltz,

    I think the treatment of Palin happened because it worked with Hillary. Hillary was vilified even more than Palin, IMHO–mostly because the primaries lasted much longer than the GE. Hillary was called every name in the book, accused of murder, and threatened with murder–and nothing happened to the people who attacked her. They won.

  96. cwaltz,

    to me it was ALL disgusting! and the joke was on every single one woman, not just HRC and Palin.
    What a sad day.

  97. Brad,

    How many of her male predecessers didn’t get a fair role call?

  98. In case anyone missed this, the internal GOP leaks re Sarah Palin are said to have come from a Romney worker who was absorbed into the MCain campaign. Romney may give it another go in 2012, and a couple of his folks have turned on the smears to stifle potential future competition.

  99. Riverdaughter –

    Okay, okay, I get it. 🙂

    But I must point out that neither Dodd nor Kucinich are “stars,” as so clearly Hillary is. One can see that her star status alone is probably sufficient reason for Clinton go go that extra mile (or two, or ten, or five hundred).

    Look, there’s been a lot of talk in here about where the PUMA movement should go now that the election is over. My view is that people who write in forums like this might consider the necessity of singing a little bit less to the choir and addressing a larger audience of the uninitiated with openness and clarity.

  100. cwaltz – Exactly. You never know until you try!

    We will see what we can do. Personally, I think Hillary’s record and accomplishments speak for themselves. They should not be thrown away because she was put in a very bad position by her Party.

    And by the way, if Hillary were the same age as Sarah, they would have called her a bimbo too. Hillary only got to hold onto her intellect because she is too “old” for the adolescents who run this country to be considered attractive.

  101. they certainly did win, boomer.
    HRC’s career is ruined and her dreams dashed.

    and as far as a third party is concerned-it’s all about the money and that’s why it never happens.

  102. how’s that for a run-on, sloppily constructed sentence?).
    *****
    Not a problem since you graciously overlooked by verb-subject agreement error.

    These events horrify us and we see them on the spectrum of misogyny that exists thoughout the world. No one is suggesting that the end result is the same, only that the same forces are at play.

  103. I also disliked seeing “feminists” throw another woman to the wolves. Dislike Sarah Palin’s positions, criticize them but to say “the only thing she has in common with me is a skirt”? Very disrespectful.

  104. madamab, on November 7th, 2008 at 12:11 pm Said:

    But my little pea brain is also wondering if we could get Hillary and Sarah to do a high-profile endorsement of The New Agenda. You know, speak at their events, fundraise for them, and promote the 30% Solution.

    Two women who are ideological opposites speaking out for, and recruiting, other women in politics, might do a lot more than a third party ever could in the next short while.

    What do you all think?
    _________________________________________________
    madamab, as one pea-brain to another, I think this is a great idea. What is it going to take to get it going? This MIGHT just not be seen even by the MSM as BO bashing or – gasp! – sour grapes, but as a chance to discuss the political way forward for high-profile women, and the MSM’s role in that.

  105. TeresaInPa

    Give me a fu*king break. My posts in here are not pronouncements, they are opinions respectfully expressed. Your post to me is 100% pure bullshit.

  106. Brad.

    My view is that people who comment in forums like this should be a lot more civil when they are criticizing the writers of the posts.

  107. Sorry, Brad. I came here to Riverdaughter’s place because I didn’t want to tone it down and pretend to be someone other than who I am. Maybe you should start your own blog and write about what you think is important. I’d probably read it.

  108. Heh

    Yeah she’s such a star that the party didn’t even feel she deserved a roll call vote! They pimped her out and it was disgusting. The party USES women. She was supposed to go on out and get those votes that they didn’t even feel were important enough to count. I am so done and over the Democratic party.

  109. It doesn’t bother me, madamab. I expected more comments like that, and I find them very instructive. Sometimes I think in order to fully understand certain types of experiences, you have to have lived them.

  110. UTC – madamab, as one pea-brain to another, I think this is a great idea. What is it going to take to get it going?

    I am going to talk to the founders of the New Agenda and see what they think. They have allowed me to cross-post there a few times, so maybe they will listen!

    🙂

  111. Please sign and pass along.

    Here’s a petition to California Gov. Action Hero that anyone can sign to reopen Prop 8 in California.

    http://www.petitiononline.com/seg5130/petition.html

  112. madamab –

    I’ve gone out of my way to say that I think BostonBoomer is a good writer. I believe I used the word “excellent.” And since when is frankness a lack of civility?

  113. You really believe that the MSM is going to give women more than a token……after watching the nutcrackers, and listening to the beauty pagaent comments…….wishful thinking in my opinion.

  114. TeresaInPa,

    It’s really good to see you. We’ve traveled a long road since DK, haven’t we?

  115. I am liberal but I feel what was done to Sarah was far worse than what was done to Hillary, at least Hillary got to keep her intellect, even if in doing so she got charged as being a witch with a capital B.

    Her intellect???? Hillary has no experience. She only is where she is because she was married to Bill Clinton. When she was a first lady, her only job was to serve tea according to Obama. Sorry but Hillary served more than Palin did. I am not excusing what has happened to Palin but Hillary went through shit. What Palin is facing now is what Hillary faced back in the 90es.

  116. TeresaInPa,

    It’s really good to see you. We’ve traveled a long road since DK, haven’t we?

  117. Jmac said

    I don’t care what speech a white woman might have given at a political convention, the press would not have jumped on her band wagon and pushed her relentlessly to the American people.

    And there’s proof: The Ann Richard’s speech to the Democratic National Convention. It’s quoted almost every week. But did anyone for one moment consider her a serious contender for the Presidency?

  118. Feel free to answer my question Brad

    WHEN was it that any of Hillary’s male predecessers were forced to cede the votes they recieved during a primary? The primary was so close that it boiled down to superdelegates but that wasn’t good enough because during a sham of the roll call vote they had states that went Hillary saying they went for Obama. Have I mentioned how OVER the Democratic party I am? God, I am making myself angry all over again.

  119. brad says:

    “”Look, there’s been a lot of talk in here about where the PUMA movement should go now that the election is over. My view is that people who write in forums like this might consider the necessity of singing a little bit less to the choir and addressing a larger audience of the uninitiated with openness and clarity.””

    Fabulous idea Brad, you start and send us the link.

  120. Brad – If BB wasn’t offended, I’m not going to argue with you.

    I’m not enjoying your comments, personally. I don’t think you’re adding anything to the conversation.

    That was frank, wasn’t it? How can frankness be uncivil?

  121. Brad, I think you have an aggressive (almost brutal) way of expressing yourself and I don’t think you should be surprised if you are answered in an equally aggressive way.

  122. hi BB, yes a very long road. What a cesspool that place turned in to and it started with the pie wars.

  123. You’ll forgive me if I don’t count the blogger boyz, as much as they might like me to, as a serious threat. Most of the media did not question Hillary and considered her to be a serious contender. Their big problem with her appeared to be her laugh. I think Sarah had it worse. That is my opinion. You, of course, are entitled to feel entirely different.

  124. BostonBoomer

    There’s no doubt that Clinton was cheated out of nomination and I do believe that, in the fullness of time, that fact will become something akin to common knowledge.

    As I said to Riverdaughter, I think Clinton is a genuine political “star,” and that the disproportionate level of campaigning she has done on BO’s behalf has more to do with her stardom than with her status as a second-rate political citizen.

    One more thing: when my film TAOD comes out all of you are going to feel free to say whatever it is you want to say about it, pro or contra. Which is as it should be. So I don’t understand why a bit of respectful criticism on my part is anathema to the collective sensibilities here.

  125. Brad,

    I’d really like an answer to my question about which male candidates who have lost a nomination fight have campaigned for their opponents as much as Hillary did? I just can’t think of any examples. They may well exist. You said she only did what every other loser does. I think that statement may be a little “imprecise,” to use your word.

  126. katiebird – It’s too bad McCain is such a fossil, otherwise Ann Richards or Kay Bailey Hutchinson should have been the VP pick.

  127. Brad — misogyny and human rights violations exist on a spectrum. There are differences in degree, but they are the same in kind. Unless people understand that, there’s pretty little hope of fighting them at either end of the spectrum.

    Most people, when they hear of read of something like the Somali girl’s stoning, think how horrible, but then think immediately of all the ways they and those they love would never be subjected to the same horrors. Immediate distancing. (which is actually quite human and quite understandable).

    It’s the same reason why, even now, the blame-the-rape-victim biases are so strong in our culture. Everyone’s desperate to think they are not also at risk based solely on factors they can’t control (like their gender). And it’s by no means limited to misogyny or sexual assault. During the Stalinist purges, as people watched their neighbors and family members disappear in the middle of the night, or even taken away in broad daylight, Russians clung to the belief (even up to Stalin’s death) that “well, they must have done something wrong, or the government wouldn’t take them away.” Because no one wants to admit they could be next by mere random chance. But they were. Journey Into the Whirlwind by Eugenia Ginzburg is an excellently written first-person account of just this phenomenon.

    Misogyny, or any kind of hateful bullying, will never be overcome unless people fight against this kind of distancing by recognizing that yes, it can happen to you, and yes, sexism and violence against one woman isn’t severable from sexism and violence against all women. Whether it’s sporting a t-shirt calling a major female politician a c*nt or stoning a girl to death, it all springs from the same source.

    Elizabitchez had an especially good related post a week or so ago

    The drive to distinguish sexism and hatred against Clinton here in the US from the stoning in Somalia is understandable, but ultimately counterproductive to anyone who would like to eliminate sexism globally. Bboomer’s point, as I read it, was about the connection between the two, establishing the spectrum, rather than making a literal argument that stoning = this ever-d*mned election season.

  128. Brad,

    We just disagree. It’s as simple as that. I don’t have any problem with disagreement. I think it’s healthy, and I hope you feel the same.

  129. Oh, her laugh was the problem? Not the cankles or the pantsuits or the breasts. Not the hips or the husband or how she raised her daughter and kept her marriage together.

    The problem wasn’t her laugh. The problem was her resume and the fact that if hers was the standard, they’d never measure up.

  130. Brad,

    She WAS cheated. If she was such a “political star” why do you think that occured?

  131. CWaltz,

    Did you watch MSNBC at all? Keith Olbermann was shockingly disrespectful of Hillary, and even called for her to be taken in a room by a male delegate and “only he comes out.” Chris Mathews’ behavior toward Hillary was even more reprensible. David Shuster metaphorically called Hillary a pimp and her daughter a whore. Later, he brought a pen on the set that had Hillary’s head on it and made her “cackle” when it was pushed. I could go on and on about the treatment of Hillary by other networks, but I don’t have the time.

  132. Ann Richards is dead, unfortunately. And she was a Democrat.

  133. She in all likelihood would be stripped of any real power within the Democratic party. that might mean she’d have to choose between her agenda and taking a stand.

    I think Hillary chose her agenda. As long as she gets to advance her agenda – the issues she has fought for for years, Hillary is willing to go through anything. The only problem is that the new Democratic party might not care about those issues as much as Hillary does and this is why I think Madamab’s claim that Hillary might leave the Dem party has some truth to it. I see Hillary blindly believing that the Democratic party can be saved and will also do some good despite of its many many flaws. What happens when she realizes that she is wrong and it is too late to save it. What will she do then?

  134. Again

    You are entitled to an opinion other than my own Regency. I saw the same primary and general as you did. My perception was different.

    Furthermore, I don’t count Michelle Obama either. I thought her comment was disgusting but I don’t consider her part of MSM and think the reason it was mainly included was to help promote a storyline of “fighting’ rather than misogyny.

    For the record, I have seen misogyny up close and personal. I joined the Navy in 1986, which was a time before we were allowed on all ships. My first billet I got to hear men whine about how I was taking up a shore billet and I got told that the rate I wanted was not available because of my gender(I still got it because I didn’t take no for an answer). After I finished my C school I got my billet because the sub tender was going to 60/40 and I was a female. I know all about gender discrimination and have seen it up close and personal in all its ugliness.

  135. New post scheduled to go up in 30 minutes

  136. boomer
    will you throw me an email sometime?
    I’m at
    bosmeetup@aol.com

  137. katiebird –

    Brutal? Seriously? You really think I’m brutal?

    Reminds me of feminist musicologist Susan McClary’s assessment of Beethoven’s Ninth Symphony:

    “”The point of recapitulation in the first movement of the Ninth is one of the most horrifying moments in music, as the carefully prepared cadence is frustrated, damning up energy which finally explodes in the murderous, throttling rage of a rapist incapable of attaining release.”

    Not that I’m comparing myself to Beethoven, but I guess one can find brutality almost anywhere. And by the way, while the above quote displays an abundance of “intellectual precision,” it is quite lacking in the wisdom department, which BostonBoomer displays in most everything she writes.

  138. Bill Bradley was a “star” but he disappeared after losing to Gore. So did Dean in 2004, Jerry Brown in 1992, Jackson in 1884 and 1988, and Kennedy in 1980

    Gore help Bill in 1992, but he was the VP pick.

  139. Did I watch MSNBC?

    Not if I could avoid it. I dislike propaganda. I did hear about the Hillary nutcrackers and have often opined that Chris Matthews has a major crush on Bill Clinton. Personally, I think Aqua Velva should be tested to see if it kills brain cells. It seems pretty clear Keith and Chris are missing a few.

    I am in no way shape or form saying Hillary didn’t face misogyny. I am saying that I feel Sarah got it worse. I do not know if it was because they saw they were effective with Hillary or what……I just know that imo it was Clinton times three for poor Sarah. At least Hillary had the “feminists” pulling for her. Poor Sarah wasn’t even given that.

  140. Oy vey. Why is this post all of a sudden all about Brad?

    Can we talk about the issues that BB raised, please?

  141. BostonBoomer

    You know I like your writing. I read everything you post. I’m a fan. You know that.

  142. Yes, Brad I do think you are brutal in your tone. I’m willing to admit that you don’t intend it to be so. But, that’s the way I always read you. I almost always have to take a deep breath after you’ve posted a comment.

  143. Valhalla,

    What a terrific comment! Thank you so much. Yes, that’s exactly what I was trying to say. To paraphrase another famous saying from this election: You can dress up misogyny all you want to. It’s still misogyny.

  144. Downticket

    As I told madamab, it doesn’t hurt to try.

    I agree with you though i think at this juncture Hillary is choosing agenda and feels her best option to get it accomplished is through the Democratic Party structure.

  145. myiq2xu –

    Bradley was never a star in the way Clinton was and still is. And she was cheated out of the nomination because of the threat her very stardom posed to the powers that be (to answer cwaltz’s question to me).

  146. Who were these feminists? I’m not even being sarcastic, I’m honestly asking, what feminists?

  147. You’ll forgive me if I don’t count the blogger boyz,

    It was Chris that said it. Did you have a look at the Hillary nutcraker? When did they make one for Palin. Hillary was made to look like the crazy ambitious woman who would do anything to win. In debates where she beat Obama, it was always made to look like they tied or he won. She was never any better than him. She was the she devil.

  148. Brad:

    Kennedy sure was though

  149. Thank you Brad. I do agree with Katiebird that your comments do come across as very aggressive. And not just because it’s my post. I’ve seen it before here.

  150. And Jesse Jackson Sr.

  151. Did we see the Palin Barbie? That was bad.

    Sarah got it bad for two months. Hillary’s been getting it on the chin nationally for more than 16 years.

  152. The only way to change conditions that affect women is for women to gain political power. We need to directly vote for women, not for men who have women freindly platforms and, then, fail to deliver. We have tried that long enough and with lamentable results. So the strategy has to be representation over policy. Thus, the 30% solution. And that means voting for the female candidate every single time, no matter her ideology, no exceptions. Since women are 52% of the population we could make ourselves relevant in just one election. How do we go about promoting the 30% solution? I like Madamab’s idea that Clinton and Palin and other high profile leaders could work together with the New Agenda to promote this.

  153. katiebird –

    I’m just an old hippie underachiever. You take me WAY too seriously, much more seriously than I could ever take myself. I take you all very seriously, which is why I’m making a movie abut you. I’m on your side. I like pretty much everyone in this place. I’m no threat to anyone.

  154. Regency – there weren’t nearly enough of them, but Gloria Steinem and Robin Morgan wrote great pieces in the primaries.

    They lost their minds over Palin, which made me realize how absolutely useless they are going forward. They had their day, and I’m glad they contributed in the past.

  155. Maybe OT: does anyone here know about the political leanings of Anne-Marie Slaughter? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne-Marie_Slaughter

    I know she suffered some controversy at Princeton. However, I liked a lot about her book “The Idea That is America”.

  156. Gloria Steinem lost it way before Sarah Palin showed up.

  157. What feminists pulled for Hillary once the haka to make her quit got in gear? I’m not aware of any. I do know there were letters published by hundreds of “feminists for Obama.” The only things I ever read by “feminists” supporting Hillary were a column in the NYT by Goria Steinem in two columns by Erica Jong. But both of them endorsed Obama after all the hate took her down, and then they started on Sarah. There is no way that Sarah was treated worse than Hillary. But it doesn’t matter. None of it was justified and it was all misogyny.

  158. cwaltz – Hillary had no one. Palin had a party behind her. McCain defended her. Suddenly sexism became an issue but it wasn’t during the primary. SNL did a spoof with Hillary and Palin about this.

  159. BB:

    NARAL endorsed Obama during that period

  160. madamab: “Why is this post all of a sudden all about Brad?”

    That’s why I said it was instructive. Isn’t this what always happens? It’s never about the women.

  161. I don’t know how anyone can miss the point of BB’s post. If there are men who do, then that just reinforces the point of the post as I understand it. Those men could benefit from taking lessons from myiq. He understands, and I appreciate it.

  162. Here’s NOW

    Where basically they insinuate the ONLY reason she was picked is because she is female and go as far as to say voting for her is voting against your own interests.

    http://www.now.org/press/08-08/08-29.html

  163. BB – that’s right. Comparisons are useless. Misogyny is misogyny. And cartoon and verbal violence against women does eventually lead to the real thing.

    We must stop the slide down this slippery slope before it’s too late.

    BTW – I wrote to the New Agenda. I’ll keep you all posted as to what they think!

  164. Comment deleted because katiebird agrees with MadamaB & BostonBoomer.

  165. I agree, Britannia.

  166. Conflucians don’t usually flame each other.

    We save that for tro!!s

  167. BostonBoomer –

    Okay, I’ll try and answer your question, simply by saying that the fact that Clinton went out to campaign on Obama’s behalf with such vigor had less to do with her gender (“Hon, go out and get us some coffee, wouldja?”) than it did with her incredible status as a politician. Maybe this room is so accustomed to seeing Clinton as a victim of misogyny (which she clearly is) that seeing her as the towering figure she was and remains to this day is somewhat difficult. Clinton is a superstar, and THAT is why she was under so much pressure to campaign for Obama.

    For clarity’s sake, let’s not throw Clinton in with any number of lesser politicians, male or otherwise.

  168. Ooh! ooh! ooh!! I just found a quote from a person I admire very much – Vaclav Havel, formerly President of the Czech Republic (also former playwright and jailbird):

    “The best government in the world, the best parliament and the best president, cannot achieve much on their own. Freedom and democracy include participation and therefore responsibility from us all” Václav Havel

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/author/Anne-Marie_Slaughter.jsp

    ” …participation and therefore responsibility from us all.” Just about sums it up.

  169. madamab @ 1:11 pm: I think the two topics that you speak of are somehow related. That one led to the other is no accident.

  170. no pasaran – That is an interesting idea (women only voting for women). The polls indicate that blacks did that with Obama.
    But if women do it , and blacks continue to as a regular habit, what will be the effect? Will white men decide to vote for only white males as well if many women announce this intention?

  171. New thread up!

  172. Britannia – LOL!

  173. Brad,

    As I said before, I disagree with you. All of the treatment Hillary got was colored by her gender, IMO.

  174. BB – it is about the woman. It’s about you and your – very fine – post. I feel, and others do too, that Brad spoke about you rather condescendingly, using the phrase “intellectually dishonest”. The good thing about this site is that people can disagree without hatred (well, some of the time). Brad gets the idea that we do not all agree with him on this. You had a good, if somewhat alarmist, point to make I feel. It has stimulated a lot of discussion.

  175. I watched a clip of Gloria Steinem’s appearance on Oprah’s Wed. show. What she said had me furious.

    Steinem had the gall to insinuate that Palin was a victim/pawn used by the McCain campaign. She implied that Sarah Palin is too stupid to ‘grasp’ how evil republicans were just using her. Steinem hoped that one day Palin would ‘come to understand that’.

    It’s ridiculous. All Sarah Palin did was accept a job opportunity offered to her.

  176. urgetocompute

    Again, I did NOT use the phrase “intellectually dishonest.”

    Here is what I said in its entirety: “I didn’t see BB’s post as a generalization about men. I just saw it as intellectually imprecise. I’m usually very impressed with her writing.”

    This is the second time I’ve pointed this out to you. Stop lying to score a cheap point.

  177. Just got back from lunch and after reading all the posts, if I have to start worrying about sentence construction, I am f^&king leaving.

  178. LOL! Kim, I hope we don’t have to worry about that, or typos either.

  179. Real clear names names

    http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/feminist_army_aims_at_palin.html

    According to these “feminists” Sarah palin by virtue of her opinion on abortion is the female equivalent of an “Uncle Tom”

    Nevermind that she is part of an organization that has done things of merit for women. Nevermind the domestic violence law these women helped pass, the fact they worked to help women get child support, or their efforts to help young women who are in college who chose to give birth the support they need to finish college. Those aren’t “real” women’s issues. She isn’t a “real’ feminist. I think part of my perception is because I deplore women who attack other women just for the sake of a political win.

    Hillary, got attacked by Keith, chris, and the blogger boyz. They lost credibility with me pretty early on. It was astounding and appalling to see so many women who supposedly speak for women’s issues attack this woman because they disagreed with her political affiliation.

    Oh and Hillary had the support of millions, the fact that Democratic party didn’t come out for her shouldn’t be surprising. When was the last time they took a political risk regarding women’s issues? Partial Birth passed because of craven Democrats. The fact that BC pills are not required to be covered by insurance companies? Not addressed by Democrats. The increase in costs of the same on college campuses. Also not addressed by Democrats. Did they fight to get equal pay passed as a majority? Oh wait, nope didn’t do that either. they’d rather use it as a bludgeon.

  180. Brad,

    Please, give it a rest! We’ve all gotten your point again and again and again…

    You really and truly have made your point. Now let it go.

  181. I think Steinem’s brain has shrunk.

  182. Sarah Palin doesn’t have the correct political affiliation therefore she couldn’t possibly a feminist. She’s either stupid or a turncoat according to Steinem. I agree that is extremely insulting. being a feminist shoudn’t mean you have to pass a Steinem litmus test or a NOW one.

  183. I’ve had it with all those old elitist feminists. My guess is Betty Friedan would have agreed with us. At least I can believe that since she is no longer with us.

  184. Brad Mays – Hillary is a superstar to the people who aren’t insiders of the Dem party atleast that is how I see it but the reality is insider the party Hillary has no power at all. To the outside world it looks like she does but she doesn’t

  185. if we start critiquing sentence structure I am in real trouble.

  186. […] The Confluence: Misogyny: A Juxtaposition of Different but Eerily Analogous Events […]

  187. “pet_vet, on November 7th, 2008 at 1:27 pm Said:
    no pasaran – That is an interesting idea (women only voting for women). The polls indicate that blacks did that with Obama.
    But if women do it , and blacks continue to as a regular habit, what will be the effect? Will white men decide to vote for only white males as well if many women announce this intention?”

    pet-vet: These are dire times for women and we need to change our voting strategy because women still only represent 17% of elected office. With such low representation we have minimal influence.

    Some countries have legislated quotas so that the government reflects the population. A democracy should represent all its people. And yes the blacks voted for Obama by 92-93%; I have no problem with that and they for once, can exert some power. And don’t forget that there already are plenty of men who only vote for men.

  188. Downticket: Well, people are blaming her for Obama’s win.

  189. Valhalla, that was so eloquently stated. Thank you.

  190. I see Hillary’s action as being pro-active. She wants a prominent role in the Senate in an Obama administration. She’s blooming where she is planted and to that end, she’s won the right to get a lot done. She may well get a leadership or committee chair out of it. She may have won the right to introduce legislation that she cares about. We don’t know what the deal is but I guarantee you there were no threats that carried the day – only deals.

    Remember, Clinton has already been threatened with a primary challenger and she ignored the threat because she has a 60% approval rating. There is nothing they can do to her. She in untouchable, and she commands a huge army of people within the Democratic who hold her in very high esteem.

    And as Obama fails, as Obama inevitably will, and as everyone winds up hating Michelle even more than they do now,, Hillary’ s star is going to rise even more.

  191. As PUMA Murphy says:
    “Mother’s watching,
    Be nice to each other”

  192. Valhalla –

    I just wanted to thank-you for a marvelous post. Brilliant, just brilliant.

    best,

    Brad

  193. Over two thousand years ago, Jesus of Nazareth, an observant Jew, prevented the stoning of a woman. Are we still to subscribe to the pollitically correct fallacy that the tenets of the Judeo-Christian ethic and those of Islam are morally equivalent?

  194. urgetocompute, on November 7th, 2008 at 1:26 pm Said:
    Ooh! ooh! ooh!! I just found a quote from a person I admire very much – Vaclav Havel, formerly President of the Czech Republic (also former playwright and jailbird):

    “The best government in the world, the best parliament and the best president, cannot achieve much on their own. Freedom and democracy include participation and therefore responsibility from us all” Václav Havel

    http://www.opendemocracy.net/author/Anne-Marie_Slaughter.jsp

    ” …participation and therefore responsibility from us all.” Just about sums it up.

    He’s mirroring the Founding Fathers. They expected the citizenry to be both informed and involved with their government; and stated that it would not long survive otherwise.

  195. Did she read your post ?

    Senator Clinton Calls for Stronger Protections for Women and Girls in Conflict Areas After Brutal Stoning Death of Somalian Rape Victim

    http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=304830&&

  196. riverdaughter, on November 7th, 2008 at 12:24 pm Said:

    brad: it’s a different type of brutality but see where BB is going with it. Women in this country now understand how little our culture values them. It wasn’t enough for Hillary to be cheated out of her nomination. No, she had to be held up as an example of what happens to women who challenge the power structure.
    *****
    this isn’t about defeat, this is about submission and for cultures all over the world – even ones that herald themselves first world – women have to play beta dog and grovel.

  197. I do think Hillary was between a rock and a hard place and I do think it is different than past candidates. Past candidates did not have more votes than any other person in the history of elections. Past candidates save Ferraro, did not have a hatred of gender used to this extent against them. Past candidates did not have this level of cheating and under handedness used by this party against them to steal this moment in history so they could give it to someone else *someone bringing in a lot more cash*

    It is different for her, and it is very different for us. Had it not been we would have been voting with the “elected” nominee. I couldn’t bring myself to do that for the first time in my life.

    And I do think she was “forced” in that had she not done it, I am pretty sure she would have been black balled in the senate and bullied even more out of her career power than she already has been. There are things she would like to accomplish in the future, I think she’d like to position herself to do them. So in that sense, it was a non choice. Had she not campaigned for him at this level and he lost, they certainly would have made it her fault…and used it as proof positive that she is a “racist” to boot.

    I hope Hillary does run again one day. I honestly hope she is the first woman president or someone very, very like her. What I am afraid will happen is that it will be someone that has not fought her whole life for values that represent women’s struggle as well as Hillary has.

    The reality is though that the moment has passed for now. I don’t think I’ll be alive to see it…it would have been so much easier to deal with had it not happened in such a hateful manner against such a woman as this.

    It all really did boil down to “bro’s before ho’s” It is just as real, crass, and disgusting as that. And it will have real life consequences. Misogyny works to keep women out of power no matter who that woman may be. Since it works so well, it will continue to be used. The president elect rubber stamps it!

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