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Life vs. Life: Why The Abortion Issue Rules Us All

A Potential Life at Two Days Old

A Potential Life at Two Days Old

In this charged election year, no matter who claims the White House in 2009, we will be electing at least one person with restrictive views on abortion to the White House.

John McCain proclaims that he is “proudly pro-life” (although in the 2000 election, he stated just the opposite). His running mate, Sarah Palin, is far more credible and consistent in her stance against abortion, and even belongs to a group called “Feminists for Life.” As for Barack Obama, he has veered away from the traditional Democratic framing of “safe, legal and rare,” and has been talking about how women shouldn’t get third-trimester abortions just because we’re feeling blue; indeed, we gals are such frivolous creatures that we, as a matter of course, must consult a committee before making such a momentous decision. At least Joe Biden, Barack Obama’s running mate, is unwavering in his pro-choice stance, and drafted the Violence Against Women Act in 1994; however, many of us will never forget his role in casting doubt upon Anita Hill’s story, which helped confirm the arch-conservative Clarence Thomas – another anti-choice Justice – to the Supreme Court.

35 years after Roe v. Wade legalized abortion in America, why is that decision such a controversial and emotional one in our political and personal lives? I believe it is because the choice to terminate a pregnancy is perceived as a choice of one life over another. And how can one make such a choice without agony and conflict? How can a just and lawful nation allow the murder of a child by its mother?

Except that’s not really what happens, is it? What happens in an abortion is that a mother trades a potential life for an actual life. But that simple idea has become lost in a fog of pseudo-science, emotional manipulation by both parties, religious interference and deep-seated societal misogyny.

The pseudo-scientific trap.

Technically, one could claim that life begins at conception. But what type of life is it at that point? It is potential life. One cannot argue that a zygote thinks, breathes, eats, or does any of the things that would make it a person. The potential human cannot do any of those things by itself, reliably, until it has reached the age of about 30 weeks. Until that time, it is not a life that can survive without its mother’s body.

Consider the life of a woman, who has been thinking, breathing, eating, and loving her family and friends for many years. Then, consider the small clump of cells living inside this woman. In a real scientific sense, how can those “lives” be remotely equivalent? Using the term “life” to equate the two, as is a regular practice of the anti-abortion movement, is acutely dishonest, and there is nothing scientific about it. As for an abortion of a baby that can live outside its mother’s body, that should also be the woman’s decision. (More on that later.)

Democratic and Republican manipulation.

Every election year, we ladies trot obediently to the voting booths and cast our ballots for the party we think represents our interests. Since abortion was legalized, those of us who believe in reproductive freedom and other feminist issues have often voted Democratic, whereas those of us who believe that abortion should be illegal at the federal and/or state level have often voted Republican.

But this year, the lines are getting blurred. Barack Obama showed a breathtaking disregard for Hillary Clinton’s voters, who were mostly pro-choice feminists, by spending far too much time denigrating women, fuzzing the traditional Democratic position on abortion, and reaching out to anti-choice evangelicals. After a nomination fight in which neither candidate had reached the magic number of pledged delegates – a fight in which, at one point, Senator Clinton was behind by a mere 17 of those delegates – Senator Obama unthinkably did not choose Senator Clinton as his VP nominee. Nothing could have proved his hatred of Hillary’s voters more clearly. In addition, he voted “present” on reproductive issues far too often in the Illinois state legislature.

Meanwhile, we found out that John McCain pays his female staffers more than his male ones (Obama pays his less!), had taken the time to meet with high-profile Clinton supporters and promise that their concerns would be addressed if he became President, and had the foresight and vision to pick a woman as his VP. Yet he, and especially Governor Palin, are strongly anti-abortion and feel Roe v. Wade should be overturned.

At the same time, a Democratic-controlled Congress has largely failed to fight Bush’s latest assault on reproductive rights, which would be the worst blow in years to womens’ access to birth control and the anti-pregnancy “morning after” pill.

So who is on our side – Democrats or Republicans? And why should we believe them on reproductive issues like abortion, when neither side has kept its promises to us?

Religious interference.

I really don’t think I need to say much about this topic. But I do find it utterly reprehensible that our elected officials have ceded so much terrority to the religious right in the area of the feminine reproductive system. Abortion is a personal choice, and no religious institution should use the government to impose its idea of morality on my body. This type of church/state meddling is expressly forbidden by the Constitution, and should not be allowed to continue.

Deep-seated misogyny.

Florynce Kennedy, feminist and civil rights activist, famously said, “If men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.” Why does that statement ring so true, even today?

Well, just imagine a universe where religious institutions sternly advised men that they cannot control their own reproductive systems. Imagine if access to condoms and vasectomies were strictly regulated by the government. After all, if “life begins at conception,” wouldn’t it be logical to control mens’ bodies as well? And of course, in this mythical universe, a man would be expected to accept the idea that his actual life was less important than a potential life – even one that could survive outside of his body. (I am having a hard time even typing that sentence with a straight face.)

Of course, none of this would ever happen, because men do not have scary, mysterious ladyparts, but happily possess those scraps of flesh hanging off their pelvises that allow them to be in charge of their own destinies. And on a less snarky note, men still run the goverment, and would hardly pass laws which constrain their own reproductive freedom.

It seems clear that neither Party will take womens’ concerns seriously until we stop voting based on what we think the parties will do about Roe v. Wade, and start voting the 30% Solution. Enough of letting them push our buttons, sisters and brothers. Equal representation is the only thing that has been proven to guarantee that womens’ issues are addressed in any society. Until we have it, we are doomed to keep running in circles while both parties, dominated by men, continue to undermine our rights to choose our own lives over the potential lives of our babies.

And that’s an outcome that no woman, or sympathetic man, should enable.

Cross-posted at Partizane

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175 Responses

  1. […] at Partizane and The Confluence Possibly related posts: (automatically generated)Pro-life, pro-choice…pro sport – by Big […]

  2. Like the woman asks herself: “shall I get an abortion today or have my nails done?” These views are so antiquated that it begs incredulity.

  3. the truth of this is undeniable.

    Off topic, please don’t shoot me

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SCcHzUmVP5c

  4. I remember in a high school before abortion was legal a girl one year ahead was taken to a back street abortionist by her mother . The girl died.
    I believe that abortions should be safe and rare.
    I do not know anyone who takes abortion lightly and does not agonize over the decision to have one.
    It is a private decision and not the government’s.
    I also understand that those who oppose abortion should not have their taxes paying for abortions.

    COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  5. Helen – No one gets to choose how his/her taxes are being spent.

    Perhaps we can change that, but if my taxes go to pay for Bush’s salary, the bailout and the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan, then the anti-abortionists have to pay for abortions.

    C’est la vie.

  6. CHECK BACK AT http://www.hillaryclintonforum.net tonight for further details and times of RALLY

    Quote:
    RALLY AT SUPREME COURT FOR PHIL BERG!! Ok, they didn’t get the binding done on the motion for the Supreme Court in time! Phil will let me know tonight what time everyone is suppose to be at the Supreme Court Steps to meet him tomorrow and I will send it out to you tonight as soon as I get it!

    Please get your signs made today and tonight and be ready for tomorrow! The things to go on the signs will be listed below. We need as large a Crowd as we can get to be waiting at the steps of Supreme Court for Mr. Berg, the person meeting him at the Train Station as well as Will Bower who will be there to accompany him there. Fox News will also be at the Train Station and will follow them all the way to the Supreme Court, filming everything.

    Remember to be loud, but RESPECTFUL as this is about having the Supreme Court hear us and grant us what we are asking for, proof that Obama is eligible to run for the Office of President, our Commander In Chief. Chat Speech, Speech, Speech when you see Mr. Berg. He will either speak before he goes into the Court, unless he needs to go in immediately, if so he will speak when we comes out. He will stop and acknowledge everyone that is there and thank you for your support, if he doesn’t have time for a speech right then!!

    DO NOT yell anything negative about Obama. You can yell that “Obama needs to show he is eligible”, Why the Secrecy Surrounding Obama”, “Obama Release Certified Copies Of Your Records and Papers” and you can chant over and over “Uphold Our Constitution, Defend it, We The People Demand It”.

    SIGNS: 1. McCain Supporter’s For The Constitution
    2. Obama Supporter’s For The Constitution
    3. Uphold And Defend Our Constitution

  7. If people would just view this rationally as a medical procedure and keep their own views to themselves we could probably live happily ever after.

  8. PJ – I agree!

  9. I can understand and respect the position of someone like Sarah Palin who opposes abortion because of religious and/or moral beliefs.

    I think that anyone who thinks abortion is wrong should not ever have one.

    I also think they should stay out of other people’s business.

  10. I can understand and respect the position of someone like Sarah Palin who opposes abortion because of religious and/or moral beliefs.

    I think that anyone who thinks abortion is wrong should not ever have one.

    I also think they should stay out of other people’s business.

    That about sums it up for me. And the same goes for pharmacists who don’t want to dispense birth control or the “morning after” pill. You have moral opposition to those things? Don’t become a pharmacist.

  11. which is what Palin is doing, Myiq

  12. I would be profoundly disturbed if SCOTUS based their decisions (including whether to hear a case) on public opinion.

    Congress (particularly the House of Representatives) is supposed to reflect the public will.

    SCOTUS is supposed to interpret the Constitution.

  13. JulieS9164 –

    And the same goes for pharmacists who don’t want to dispense birth control or the “morning after” pill. You have moral opposition to those things? Don’t become a pharmacist.

    Oh my Gawd, yes. I am so tired of hearing about these people and their faux attacks of “conscience.” As if they didn’t know such things existed when they got their licenses?!

    It is ridiculous to expect a woman to travel all over the place just to find a pharmacist whose tender sensibilities will allow him or her to dispense these medications. Imagine if a man had to do the same to get Viagra or a condom….

  14. Obama on abortion: it’s a matter of science and philosophy (in case no one knew that LOL!) and I can’t share my views because doing so at this time would not be politically expedient.

    At what point does potential become actual, and by what means does one determine as much?

    IMHO It doesn’t matter. Most people seem to look for arguments that support what they already believe.

    Nice post!

  15. why???

    are you aware that sometime the teenager has been impregnated by her father or another member of her family?

  16. Madamab
    I understand your point of view also. Over the years my taxes have gone for so many things I did not believe in that I talked to myself in anger.
    It should be a safe procedure and a rare procedure.
    Women should not have to go from state to state or to a different country for a safe procedure.

    COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  17. Seriously, can I pay taxes on only the parts of government I agree with? That’d be great.

    I hate when people try to make abortion a cut and dried issue and make it sound like women are just dying to run out and get them instead of using the alternatives. Also can we please start a discussion with the right on Birth Control….it appears a faction of their party has real issues with women being able to make reproductive choices of ANY kind. The majority of the GOP folk I have talked to appear to have NO idea whatsoever about the power play HHS has attempted. That is just plain scary sad.

  18. I refuse to allow my reproductive rights to be held hostage and used as a means to make me vote for the little prince. There are those of us voting this year who are not voting based on the candidates’ stances (or in obama’s case, shifts in stance) on abortion.
    With the control of congress securely in the liberal left’s hands, this shouldn’t be an issue no matter who takes the WH. They have the final say on who sits on the SC

  19. Women will have to go state to state if lawmakers decide abortions should be *rare*
    abortion needs to be safe and *accessible*

  20. why:

    What we consider “childhood” is an artificial construct created by society. Nature has a different view on the definition of “adult”

  21. interesting point, myiq
    never thought about it that way

  22. CWaltz –

    The majority of the GOP folk I have talked to appear to have NO idea whatsoever about the power play HHS has attempted. That is just plain scary sad.

    MY problem is that the Dem people don’t know about it either! The Obamabots all act like Democrats are the champions of womens’ rights, ignoring their almost total capitulation to this horrifying assault on womens’ access to birth control.

  23. One of the biggest outrages was when I heard someone attempt to explain why companies should not be required to carry birth control on their formularies. Apparently preventative should only be covered if it doesn’t apply specifically to females. Ugh. I’m getting myself angry all over again. There has been a war waged against women these past years and women need to wake up and start fighting back. Else we will go back to the days when childbirth was the primary cause of death for females.

  24. Women’s reproductive health and choices is between her and her DOCTOR.

    I don’t care how old she is.

    When I can put a man in jail for accidentally not pulling it out on time, THEN we can talk about legislating my ladyparts.

  25. SM77 – LOLOLOLOL! Can we jail him for pulling out too soon, as well?

    😉

  26. Also: I say that as a proud mother of a 10 year old girl.

  27. O/T for this thread but I have a question:

    A candidate who takes his “act” to Europe to “gather information” while riding on a plane with his logo seered into the side, a candidate prancing around with a faux presidential seal months before the general election is held, a candidate who encourages his supporters to take the day off work and exhorts kids to skip school in order to vote for his “historic victory”, a candidate who dismisses certain parts of the electorate in referring to them as old and bitter gun clinging citizens, a candidate whose pastor and associates who show hatred toward the white community and ridicule a female candidate from the alter, a candidate who has rubbed shoulders with former anarchists and dubious real estate brokers, a candidate whose very autobiography is suspect, a candidate who has backed off most of his earlier statements and policy issues, a candidate who is spending millions of dollars to host a 30 minute televised commercial begs an answer of why anyone would even for a moment give him their vote?

    Forget the Greek pillars and the lack of experience, how can anyone not walk away laughing out loud at this spectacle of a man? The same people who call us delusional.

    Give me a break!

  28. CWaltz, on October 29th, 2008 at 4:14 pm Said:
    One of the biggest outrages was when I heard someone attempt to explain why companies should not be required to carry birth control on their formularies.
    **************************************************

    especially considering most, if not all, carry viagra and similar erection “dysfunction” medications.

  29. madamab, on October 29th, 2008 at 4:17 pm Said:

    SM77 – LOLOLOLOL! Can we jail him for pulling out too soon, as well?

    😉

    TRIPLE LOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLLL!!!!!!!!!!

  30. Imagine a pharmacist who was a Christian Scientist – what would his/her conscience allow them to dispense?

  31. helen, should a pacifist’s taxes go to war? What about those who do not believe in capital punishment? There are many things that my government uses our money for that some folks are morally opposed to. It’s just not realistic to think we can allow people’s taxes to fund only the things they find unobjectionable.

  32. Oh I get angry all over again when I think about the craven Democrats that sentenced third trimester women to preforated uteruses and possible hemmorhage because they were to cowardly to point out that a women in her third trimester most likely has had to deal with the fact their much wanted fetus has birth defects that would sentence then to a short life with little quality. Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. You do NOT go through months of puking and swelling and having vitamins leeched from your body for giggles just to throw it away on a whim. Most women just aren’t that dumb or frivolous.

  33. When I lived in Pa, I had two living children and had three miscarriages.
    You want to see a priest talk to himself ask him “if life begins at conception and an unbaptised babies go to Limbo, why can’t you baptise a miscarriage?”

    When the birth control pill first came out I asked my doctor for them. He told me I had to have five living children to get birth control pills.
    I had two more children that I love dearly but had problems carrying both of them.
    Yes it caused economic hardships for a time.

    Yes I believe that birth control information and devices should be accessable to all that want them.

    COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS,AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  34. or “blue”

  35. They carryt freakin vaccinations- you can’t get more preventative then that.

  36. why??? – This is not a pro-abortion website. No one is “pro-abortion.”

    Your comments are bordering on offensive.

  37. This is not a pro abortion site be a pro choice site. Big difference.

    And if what you are saying about your friends is true, then thank God they did decide to abort since they certainly do not sound like women ready to take on this major responsibility in raising this child.

  38. OT: Did anyone already post the breaking news that a former ACORN employee testified in PA today, exposing rampant fraud, non-existent quality control, and on-going communications with the Obama campaign? The AP has picked the story up, and Frank Lund of the WSJ spent an extensive amount of time with her. He will be putting out an article asap. She was fired for using an ACORN credit card for expenses, so they will try to discredit her, but apparently it was powerful testimony and it could reveal that the Obama Campaign has been actively working with ACORN and lying about it.

    Did he pre-tape his infomercial or is it LIVE? I know the last part with Bill is, but not sure about the rest. If so, he will try to WORM his way out of this too. Who cares–I sure as hell won’t be watching. Beware the voodoo Obama mind control.

  39. I think this topic at this time will do nothing but cause divisiveness among us. Again, there is a democratically controlled congress, no matter who becomes POTUS their SC nominees have to be cleared with them.

  40. Helen –

    When I lived in Pa, I had two living children and had three miscarriages.
    You want to see a priest talk to himself ask him “if life begins at conception and an unbaptised babies go to Limbo, why can’t you baptise a miscarriage?”

    Can I hug you and laugh at the same time?

    🙂

  41. “I understand this is a pro abortion website”

    You obviously don’t understand shit.

    Nobody here is pro-abortion. I don’t know of anyone who is.

    This site is pro-choice.

  42. Hey, didn’t they officially “close” Limbo? 🙂

  43. fif – Wow, that is huge news!

    O’Biden – LIARS!!!

  44. Helen
    that SOB doctor
    I seriously hope his balls turned black and fell off
    What a f-ing power trip!

  45. madamab:

    They aren’t bordering on offensive. They are offensive

  46. Why

    Are you aware of how often rape and incest does occur? For the record speaking as a survivor you’d be surprised at the number of women who are the victims of rape and incest.

    As for planned parenthood, they do more than just provide abortions but I am sure you are aware of that or are you really that uninformed?

  47. helen: Sorry to inform you but Limbo and Purgatory are no longer. We are left with only two choices: Heaven or Hell. Since I have no illusions of Heaven, I am already sewing my curtains for that little corner already carved out in advance.

  48. Just wanted to mention that pregnant women usually get a detailed ultrasound scan at around 20 weeks. It might be your first sign that something is seriously wrong with your baby. That’s quite late in the pregnancy keeping in mind that a late-term abortion is considered anything after 20 weeks.

    As madamab says, it’s not a frivolous thing that we women do as evidenced in the link below:

    http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/01/25/my_late_term_abortion/

  49. Most of the barack’s popeil pocket fisherman infomercial is taped, the last part (10 minutes?) is live and I heard rumors that bill clinton would be appearing with him as they are both bff’ing around florida right now.

  50. Off topic- How about that Nebraska law folks? I always knew that there was a limit to the “caring” about a child- it appears that limit is now going to be 3 days……..The governor is even convening a special session. Only one flippin’ rep seemed to get that, the question at this point ought to be WHY so many people are dropping off older children, rather than a rush to put the clown back in the box.

    Sheesh

  51. Sorry to say, but Bill Clinton will have let me down bigtime if he appears on stage with this phony. Enough of this crapola is enough! Kissing ass no longer does it for me, Big Dawg or not.

  52. myiq – I wasn’t sure if I was being too sensitive or not…but I sense an Obamabot…

    PJ – Oh please, you are SO going to Heaven. The way you clean your house every Friday is good enough to get you there…

  53. NO! Purgatory is closed too???? This housing crisis really is widespread!

  54. Is it too late to drop Obama off at one of those places in Nebraska?

  55. Sigh- I’d love it if we could pawn him off on Nebraska.

  56. why???,

    I don’t believe a word of what you wrote.

    And this site is not pro-abortion, asshole!

  57. There are some true believers in the pro-life position based on their faith and their own moral code. I respect their position.
    There are also a whole bunch of so-called, pro-lifers who seem determined to punish women and girls for having sex.

  58. ROFL PAT!

  59. madamab: Are you kidding? Just this election season alone has brought out more cuss words and loathing for my “fellow man” that this alone will prevent my ascension. Down I go, more than likely without the aid of an elevator.

  60. There are also girls who face possible abuse if they reveal that they are sexually active.

    But I think what might be the most common issue is if there was a parental notification requirement then the girl might try to hide her pregnancy and then by the time it was no longer concealable it would be too late to have an abortion, thereby effectively preventing her from exercising any choice.

  61. Motherhood is a CHOICE. Whether it’s biological or adoptive, a woman makes the decision in her mind whether she wants to be a mother.

    I know that when I found out I was pregnant with PUMA cub, I was already calling up lawyers to divorce ex-hubby. Then we stayed together because I was preggers. We separated soon after she was born.

    I seriously contemplated an abortion because I knew he would not fulfill his duty as a father. And to this day, he hasn’t.

    At that moment I became fully aware at the power of making a choice and that I will not take that right away from any woman just because I wouldn’t have one.

    Any and every woman who goes through with having an abortion is not something they do on a whim. EIther their livelohood and/or health is at serious risk.

    One of my best friends in college had to have one after she accidently got an MMR vaccination without knowing she was pregnant. She and her boyfriend were very much in love and wanted children together.

    I will not let any pro-lifer preach to me when in the same breath they complain about paying taxes to support “welfare babies.” SCREW YOU AZZHOLES.

  62. Pat, I thought we kept Purgatory? I won’t have to get people to “pray me out” anymore?
    Are you sure?

  63. Pat
    Everyone I know that is not boring will be using cooking utensils and we will eat good and never freeze.

    COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  64. I just love it when ugly comments go *poof*!
    thanks to whoever just did that

  65. ok my 2 cents about the pro-life/choice issue:

    “Technically, one could claim that life begins at conception. But what type of life is it at that point? It is potential life. One cannot argue that a zygote thinks, breathes, eats, or does any of the things that would make it a person. The potential human cannot do any of those things by itself, reliably, until it has reached the age of about 30 weeks. Until that time, it is not a life that can survive without its mother’s body.”

    It is such a difficult topic, because people do see this so differently. For some, it is not simply a scientific discussion. For them, conception = soul, and cannot be measured by science. For those who see it this way, it is murder. That brings up the next topic–religion.

    madamab, you write: This type of church/state meddling is expressly forbidden by the Constitution, and should not be allowed to continue.

    Pro-life advocates would argue that it is NOT “expressly forbidden by the Constitution,” and that it is merely implied.

    McCain’s current position is that he is a Federalist, and it should be a state issue.

    I am not God, or as Obama said, “It’s above my pay grade,” so I do not presume to know when life begins. I DO know that if we cede personal privacy rights to the government, it is a slippery slope. For me, that takes precedence. I do not worry about Roe, because as we discussed, the conservative Bush Administration combined with a Republican Congress did not overturn it when they had the chance. Further, the American public supports choice by approximately 75+%. I cannot see any administration going up against that kind of political will. We will take it to the streets if they try, so I just don’t see it happening.

  66. Put the girl, the guy, and the doctor in jail and guaranteed this will bring a death knell to the argument. The male legislators will rush to the defense of the harassed brother absolutely.

  67. Yes, Oba-Moi’s daddy was mean to him. He deserves a better upbringing – the first one didn’t work so well…

  68. dcattorney; I am positive. Also, it is no longer necessary to have made your Confirmation in order to be married in the Church. At one time, along with Baptism and First Communion, you had to be Confirmed. No longer.

  69. I say if there is an unwanted pregnancy – arrest the male for unauthorized spillage of bio fluids.

    THEN lets see how these pro-lifers will line up to do time.

  70. why?? is the type of t-roll known as a suicide bomber.

    They appear for the first time and after no more than a handful of comments they detonate a bomb.

    “Poof” they are gone (but they sometimes return with new aliases and IP addresses)

  71. How much longer until politicians concede this is a private matter?
    Private, meaning not for discussion by the Federal OR state
    government.
    How f-ing backwards are we?

  72. My position is when a man dies in childbirth then he will earn the right to legislate what risks a person should be forced to undergo. There is a reason they suggest that women wait 5 years between pregnancies. Taking on the responsibilty and risk of carrying a child to term should be on the person carrying that responsibilty and that risk. Everyone else should butt out unless asked for their input.

  73. I say threaten castration to any man who refuses to step to the plate. This also includes casual one nighters. Recklessness goes both ways.

  74. The “life begins at conception” argument is bogus.

    In biology we learn that life comes from life. The sperm and the egg are each living cells.

    I think I’ll get me a shirt that says “Ejaculation is Murder”

  75. fif – I agree with most of what you wrote.

    If we are going to talk about the historical revisionism of many “federalists” and pro-lifers, I will get very, very angry. The utter and total hypocrisy of these people is enough to make my blood boil. These are the same types of people who pretend that the Constitution established the United States as a “Christian country,” or that, as Pastor Mike Huckabee said, we should change the Constitution to better reflect “God’s laws.”

    Their specious arguments should not be considered as a serious counterweight to the very real cautions about separating church and state that are expressed in the First Amendment, especially when you consider that their goal is to prevent women from controlling their own bodies.

  76. I’ve been fighting for women’s reproductive rights for 28 years.
    I’ll probably never stop.

    At the risk of whining, when do I get to do something else?
    This battle should have been won a long time ago.
    I can’t believe this is still open for discussion!

    It’s ridiculous that groups like “Concerned Women for America”
    exist. Can’t they find something else to be concerned about?
    Poverty? War? Anything?

    It feels more like betrayal to me when women are anti-choice.
    Maybe it’s wrongheaded but I just think they should know better.

  77. I have a feeling that the purpose of Obama sanctioning the FISA Act is because he can keep a closer eye on those future voters he has counted on who are not born yet. I mean if you can count the dead then why not the not yet born?

    ACORN will be right there at the moment of conception to register the embryo which will save them tr0lling the streets and parks searching out those “bench homeowners”.

    Makes sense when you really think about it.

  78. MYIQ:

    LOLOLOLLLL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  79. sm77

    Isn’t it funny that the same batch that insist that women should be required to take on the responsibility and risk for 18 years, are the first to hoot and holler about stuff like expanding SCHIP – to cover the same “weak and vulnerable” individuals who are no longer in the uterus.

    As I was trying to say in the Nebraska thread- apparently THREE DAYS after the child leaves the uterus- you are on your own. nice.

  80. madamab: re: the ACORN news, according to this whistleblower, the Obama campaign gave ACORN their donor list for supporters who had maxed out, because if they wanted to donate more, they could do so directly to ACORN. There is a question if this is technically legal, because ACORN is supposed to be a non-partisan voter registration organization. Regardless, it is certainly unethical. Also, it confirms a close relationship with organization, because these donor lists are worth a fortune and are coveted. Obama would not give donor lists to HRC to help her pay down her debt, remember. If this is covered adequately (and that’s a big IF given the pathetic pandering of the press), the timing couldn’t be better.

  81. Why is why??? here spewing that crap?

  82. PJ – LOL!!!

    ACORN: Registering Your Embryo Since 1991!

    I deleted “why’s” latest turd dropping.

  83. why??

    I bet you you’re a guy.

    Well guess what: NO ONE will control what happens inside my body except ME.

    So go away.

  84. why???: Find a hobby and get out of the doctor’s examining rooms. Who the hell are you to preach and admonish anyone on this planet for doing whatever they feel is in their best interest? Is it in yours either way? No.

    As for your beloved Obama, he could not give a shit about women as he has already proven. Get off your high horse and get with the progam. The choice belongs to the mother at issue, not you.

  85. Their specious arguments should not be considered as a serious counterweight to the very real cautions about separating church and state that are expressed in the First Amendment, especially when you consider that their goal is to prevent women from controlling their own bodies.

    madamab: I don’t know enough about this. Sounds like another good post topic to me!

  86. fif, maxed out donors are easily found because it is a matter of public record. I can go on the web and look up people right now. What is special about a donor list except that it has their phone number/email and not just their name and physical address?

  87. Pat Johnson

    In this household we have had ardent “discussions” on the group of men that go out with the sole intent of getting laid and will say and do anything to justify the end.

    My husband made the mistake of telling me he felt sorry for these shmucks, who get stuck with a bad situation after the fact.

  88. why???:

    First of all, I doubt you went to high school, at least not for long. If you did, you are probably still enrolled.

    Secondly, this is a NObama blog, so why are you blaming his views on us?

    70% of Americans are pro-choice, so if Roe is overturned I welcome the battle in the statehouses.

    Buh-bye now! Thanks for playing, see Rico about our lovely parting gifts.

  89. CWaltz – You mean your ex-husband?

  90. Dang it! I missed Why’s rant, so I can’t get in on the fun. I hate the opportunity to whack an Obot mole!

  91. this is too stressful.
    I’m going back to my quality control testing of the Halloween candy.

  92. nope

    He’s a good guy. We disagree on alot of things. This happens to be one of those things. I am a feminist to the core.

  93. fif: You missed nothing, take my word for it.

    catarina: What kind? I only give out the good stuff so if I get stuck with leftovers, I do not have a problem making them disappear.

    CWaltz: Most men get emotional anytime another man gets caught in a sticky situation. They often project themselves into the situation. Something they cannot help.

  94. What is special about a donor list except that it has their phone number/email and not just their name and physical address?

    Mawm: I don’t know the details–I just heard it while I was driving, but I do know that selling data lists is a huge multimillion business. Maybe someone else here knows what makes them exclusive, and thus, worth a lot of money. Remember when Kerry gave Obama his donor database, and it instantly raised Obama’s fundraising capabilities exponentially?

  95. Fif

    I hear you, giving the trolls a verbal spanking is like therapy. Hee hee.

  96. And you think Obama is not capable of stealing this campaign? OMG! He has already started.

  97. myiq2xu, on October 29th, 2008 at 4:03 pm Said:

    I can understand and respect the position of someone like Sarah Palin who opposes abortion because of religious and/or moral beliefs.

    I think that anyone who thinks abortion is wrong should not ever have one.

    I also think they should stay out of other people’s business.
    __________________________________________________

    I agree and, I suspect, so does Sarah Palin. But many religious zealots seem to feel they have a mission to make us see things their way, non?

  98. pat
    i find it’s a good idea to test a few of each-would hate to give the kids anything yucky (-;

  99. Some priests are not so heartless. My friend had six miscarriages before finally being able to carry a child full term. Each child that was miscarried was baptized and buried “properly”. It kept her sane and the priest considered each one a living being.

    It is not an easy decision at all. During my “praktikum” in med school in Germany I spent part of the required time in ob/gyn. Ob/gyn physicians were required to do abortions at the time whether they wanted to or not. After witnessing many abortions per day, day after day, with some foetuses still moving after being removed it was very difficult for me to make the decision to terminate a pregnancy due to serious medical reasons. Many of the doctors who were very gifted ob’s and saved several lives miraculously with great skill (while I was there) switched specialties although they loved the ob part because they could not handle it any more. I can understand them.

    I am pro-choice. I don’t believe however that we have the right to tell someone not to follow a profession if they won’t do a certain thing per their conscience, just like I don’t believe anyone can tell me not to have sex if I don’t want to get pregnant. There must be a better solution to this problem.

    I do not foresee McCain or Palin reversing or watering down Roe. vs. Wade. Palin is pro-birth control and would probably push that harder to reduce unwanted pregnancies. Neither one would want the reputation of being the one who brought back back-alley abortions.

    BTW, in Germany which is pro-choice a woman who wants an abortion and doesn’t pay for it privately must go to the Sozialamt to get it approved even for medical reasons.

  100. catarina: I admire your altruism. I have been doing the same for a week or two.

    Reminder to self: Replinish

  101. fif – IMHO – these “strict constructionists” are nothing but a bunch of posers who want to legislate morality. There is no such thing as a “strict constructionist.” You will never find a Supreme Court Justice who thinks all the Amendments to the Constitution should be thrown out. Yet in order to go back to the “original intent” of the framers, the Amendments would indeed have to be discarded.

    For more on this, check out John Dean’s book: Conservatives Without Conscience. It’s awesome!

  102. madamab: I read it. John Dean is a very good writer in that he reduces the argument so that even I, with my limited intelligence, can understand.

  103. Fif,

    I know. We’ve been married for 15 years. I bring the female viewpoint to the table. For the record, according to the kids I ALWAYS win these discussions. LOL

  104. I’m not sure what a “Sozialamt” is, but it sounds like the sort of thing Obama would like to create..

  105. looking – thank you for sharing that post with us!

    Many of the doctors who were very gifted ob’s and saved several lives miraculously with great skill (while I was there) switched specialties although they loved the ob part because they could not handle it any more. I can understand them.

    I can understand them too. What I don’t understand is people who continue in their field, despite their objections, and then whine that they are being “forced” to perform their duties. That makes my skin crawl, and it’s unthinkable that a woman who needs medical assistance would be denied it because of their health care professional’s religious beliefs,

    Once again, the woman is the one who suffers.

  106. What always strikes me about the pro-life movement is the faux “compassionate conservative” argument. In other words, compassion ends with birth. They love to sanctimoniously tell women when life begins and what to do with their bodies, but once the child is born, where is the support? Then, they argue “personal responsibility” and “small government.” Well folks, if you want to protect all these unborn children, why aren’t you investing private funds in legitimate support systems and alternatives for single parents and children? I worked with abused and neglected kids, and there is nothing more tragic than a child who is damaged because he/she is born into an environment in which they are unwanted or the parents are incapable of properly caring for that child. It costs a lot of money to house these children in residential treatment facilities when they have been removed by the state, and if they do NOT receive early intervention, they end up as a costly burden to the state anyway, either as criminals and/or dependents.

  107. “In this household we have had ardent “discussions” on the group of men that go out with the sole intent of getting laid and will say and do anything to justify the end.

    My husband made the mistake of telling me he felt sorry for these shmucks, who get stuck with a bad situation after the fact.”

    My ex told my son that if he did the above he’d have to face the consequences – too bad. He told him where the condom section is in the store, and said that everyone is accountable for thier actions and not to depend on anyone.

    When I reminded my son of this he of course did not want to hear me talk about it. What is it with sons and the fact that they can’t countenance their mom’s being straightforward with them about sex?

  108. why??? says this is a pro-abortion web site… has she/he been banned yet?

  109. I think all women should be able to make decisions about what is part of their bodies without the interference of the government or mythology pushers or men who still see women and children as their personal property. PERIOD. I also don’t think the reason or rhyme is ANY one’s business. Because it’s none of their business.

  110. catarina – Sounds like a committee to me!

    PJ – Awwww, you Southern women are so modest!

    It was a great book for non-lawyers, though. Thank goodness!

    🙂

  111. madamab: I am in Massachusetts! We are as dumb here as in any other part of the country though.

  112. madamab

    That’s why I said that there has to be a better solution. Finding it requires some thinking.

  113. TeresainPA – I don’t have the power to ban, but I did delete. I think Myiq has already thrown da bum out.

  114. OT but the good news is McCain is closing in on Obama.
    If he can take out Barky we’ll kick his pro-life ass a little later…

  115. Pat – I thought you were originally from Texas, no?

    Am I confused? I know you live in MA of course…

  116. looking, i have a problem with the idea that you can refuse medical care to someone just because your squishy about it … my daughter’s a 4th year med student doing ob/gyn. So far she’s experienced a nurse that walked out and would not just ‘watch’ her put an iud in and a resident that wouldn’t help her clean up the remanents of a botched abortion, leaving her to take care of the women in each case.

    If I were the woman in either of those cases, I would sue the care provider, frankly.

  117. Didn’t Biden say he is personally pro-life?

    I say let the Obot generation fight for reproductive rights if they want them. I have no dog in this fight anymore.

  118. For more on this, check out John Dean’s book: Conservatives Without Conscience. It’s awesome!

    madamab: that’s what makes me a “liberal.” (Such a dirty word, I know). I believe a safety net is essential. I know it’s not perfect, and their is abuse in government, but private organizations cannot and do not provide the necessary assistance that is an inevitable by-product of human nature. In my view, conservatives seem to lack a nuanced understanding of psychology. You cannot legislate sexuality. People who are ill-equipped to parent will continue to have children. They will abuse them, neglect them, etc. This is extremely complex, and very difficult to address with intervention and treatment. The “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” approach is ludicrous when you see a kid who has, literally, never learned to brush their teeth. The steps that are critical important in between that and self-reliance take years and a lot of support to master. It is even more difficult to teach as the child matures and the traumas they have suffered become deeply ingrained. Again, “compassion” is not just a platitude–it requires a long-term, in-depth commitment on many levels. Private, charitable organizations just do not have the infrastructure or funds to manage that on a large scale.

  119. excuse the typos, I’m typing too fast…

  120. Helen, I can’t believe your doctor told you that you had to have five living children! That’s awful. My mother put me on birth control when I was 13, and that was 1977, I wasn’t even close to having sex yet.

  121. I was actually thinking about this whole subject yesterday, and I couldn’t help but think about how awesome it would be if Feminists for Life and Planned Parenthood could get together for a shared cause. Agree to disagree on abortion itself, but pool their resources to both provide information on birth control and abortion, but also to provide other alternatives to females who are conflicted.

    You may say I’m a dreamer,
    but I’m not the only one…

  122. looking – I’m sorry, but honestly, I don’t have any sympathy for these people. Zero. Imagine you’ve been raped, and you go to a hospital, and the nurse decides she doesn’t want to dispense the anti-pregnancy pill. The HHS/Bush decree that Hillary is fighting would make that a very real possibility.

    Now what do you do? Joe Lieberman, who was endorsed by NARAL, by the way, said it was just a “short bus ride” to another hospital.

    Is that what it’s come to here in America? Are we going back to the 12th century now?

  123. why??? says this is a pro-abortion web site…

    What does that even mean? Such rudimentary thought.

  124. madamab: Carol is in Texas.

  125. if saying a value a leaving breathing woman’s life over that of a proto-human makes me pro-abortion, let them say that, most likely a person like why????? is relying on an iron age superstition than science and reason. Why would I be insulted by a label placed by some one who hasn’t developed a moral structure based on something than a perceived imaginary friend invented while people where still grunting sounds and dragging their knuckles across the cave floors.

  126. fif, exactly There is so much outrage for the not-born, but not too much for the collateral deaths in our wars.

    I’m trying to find the you-tube I saw last year. Someone took a video camera to an anti-abortion protest, and he wen taround asking the people:

    First, if they thought abortion should be illegal.
    TO which they all would say yes.

    He would then ask them ” if abortion were illegal, what should we do with women who have abortions?” Should we give them prison sentences? If it is murder then shouldn’t they spend at least the next 10 years in jail?
    None of them had an answer to his questions. A lot of them said the women should not go to jail. It was really an interesting video, because it shows that a lot of the people on the anti-abortion side really haven’t thought things through.

  127. Julie – I was thinking that too!!! If Sarah Palin becomes the VP, we might be able to make that happen.

  128. Agree to disagree on abortion itself, but pool their resources to both provide information on birth control and abortion, but also to provide other alternatives to females who are conflicted.

    You may say I’m a dreamer,
    but I’m not the only one…

    Exactly. As much as “liberal feminists” have bashed Palin, when I hear her talk about being pro-life, she always stresses that her concern is for supporting a culture of life. My take is that she wants to create a more supportive, larger context. That is not mutually exclusive from being pro-choice. The critical issues is legislating morality, however. Choice needs to remain just that, the woman’s choice.

    I have to prep for a meeting. Great discussion madamab. See you all later.

  129. that’s “if saying I value a living …”

    I’m typing way to fast here…

  130. Pat – Ah, forgive me, my friend. My stress is showing. How could I confuse the locations of such amazing PUMA ladies?!

    Shall I slide you some compensatory Halloween candy through the tubez?

  131. I would love to see Sarah engaged in an in-depth discussion about birth control.
    I’m not holding my breath for that to happen.

  132. In the minds of the pro life group is a picture of the Gerber Baby. They have not given thought to the circumstances surrounding this monumental decision but instead envision that Gerber Baby as real and being terminated.

    Many people have this “savior” complex but further reasoning is not part of their immediate fervor. They are just as fanatical as those who chain themselves to trees. It fits in nicely with their need to “save”.

  133. there are 45 million unwanted pregnancies each year caused by men.

    when is the U.S. government (80% male) going to start demanding that men inject themselves with chemicals and hormone therapies to reduce their profligate fertility?

  134. murphy: When pigs fly???

  135. madamab: I accept.

  136. looking for integrity

    I abhor the double standard. My oldest is 16 and male, the conversation about sex and condoms was awkward but have it we did. I told him that contrary to popular male opinion that sleeping around isn’t cool because it can and does have consequences(getting called out for rape when you choose not to call back or ending up with an unplanned child being two I could think of off the top of my head). While I told him I did not have expectations that he’d wait unitl marraige that I hoped that when he does decide to have sex that he at least takes the time to know and respect the person he sleeps with.

    We have a 14 year old daughter as well. “Daddy” will probably be going gray in 2 years. I’ve taught her to focus on finding herself before getting serious about a boy but……… when she dates we will head to the OB GYN just to be safe and she will also get a brief refresher on condoms and the repercussions of getting too serious too soon.

  137. catarina – i agree! She already has discussed it to some extent. She is pro birth control. Her belief is that women deserve better choices than abortion, and she has helped offer those choices in her limited time as Governor of Alaska. Unlike Oba-Moi, she has put her beliefs into action.

    The Safe Haven Law

    She truly walks the walk of her beliefs, without penalizing those who disagree with her. I can’t help but have a lot of respect for her because of that.

  138. catarina

    I disagree with you. Palin’s part of a group which supports it. She’s mentioned it in conjunction with her daughter’s pregnancy.

    I think one of the things we’ve learned through this election is not defining people and their parties as black and white. Just because we have a personal feeling about something, our experiences allow us to listen to and empathize with a person with different viewpoints.

    From what she’s said until now she supports it, and I can understand why.

  139. Julie – I was thinking that too!!! If Sarah Palin becomes the VP, we might be able to make that happen.

    Well, for SP to be VP we’ve got to make THAT happen first.

    BTW, I have a group of friends that I email with regularly and 4 out of the 6 of us are Obots, 1 is a disgruntled New York Hillary supporter who doesn’t know what the hell she’s going to do, and moi. A couple of weeks ago one of them sent out an email about an Idea she had seen at a political website about people making donations to Planned Parenthood in Sarah Palin’s name so that she would get the thank you cards. The 4 O’s thought this was hilarious and were all going to do it.

    I told them to go ahead because I didn’t think SP would find it offensive since she believes in birth control and is a member of Feminists for Life. Then I linked them to the FFL website. That kind of took the wind out of their sails, although I do think they all made donations anyway.

  140. NY swing voter @5:11pm
    When the doctor told me I had to have five living children it was in the middle sixties.
    Things had progressed since then.
    But if backtrack gets in I think it will go back to that time.
    Birth control should be available to all that ask for it as everyone has their own reasons for not having children at a given time.

    If any one saw the last episode of MAd Men when the wife asked about abortion and was told that “married women did not do that only young single girls should get abortions.”
    That really was the way it was at that time.

    COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  141. I keep hearing about the 30% solution but I can’t find the basis for it. I’ve done a Google search and nowhere have I found just how the 30% solution was determined. Can someone help me out? The quote that I’ve read is that it is a well known fact….if it is shouldn’t I be able to find something on it?

    If I could find enough to convince me it is a viable theory or fact or whatever I might re-consider my vote.

    Mountain Sage

  142. Thanks, PJ! Whew!

    CWaltz – you sound like a great mom!

  143. CWaltz – my 14-year-old daughter did one of those MySpace surveys the kids send around to one another. I’m on her friends list so I got the survey too and could read her answers. For the question: What’s the best advice your parents ever gave you? she answered: Always use a condom. Hee!

  144. Mountain Sage – It’s not necessarily called that out in the non-blogosphere. But the 30% critical mass that women need to achieve in government before womens’ issues are given any credence is well-known. It was even enshrined in the Constitution in Rwanda.

  145. What hurts so much about this discussion is that our candidate, Hillary, was on TOP of this issue – she has fought and fought and fought for women over the years and that was the reason I was first drawn to her.

    We wouldn’t even be having this discussion had she been our nominee. Sadly, we should have been able to have the same confidence in Barack.

  146. Whoa! Way O/T but I just got the following email from Kay Hagan who is running against Elizabeth Dole for Senate in NC:

    Julie —

    Elizabeth Dole should be absolutely ashamed of herself. I can’t begin to tell you how outraged I am that she has attacked my Christian faith.

    Her latest ad is fabricated and pathetic.

    Our nation is in a crisis and the only solution Elizabeth Dole has to offer is mud and slime and more of the same. Wall Street was just bailed out and our economy is in shambles and Dole is doing whatever she can to talk about anything BUT the issues.

    Enough. This kind of politics will not be tolerated.

    Help me respond by paying for an ad directly addressing these claims attacking my Christian faith.

    We already have two response ads — watch them — and please donate $100, $50 or $25 to help me directly respond to Dole’s desperate, divisive and deplorable ads in a third ad.

    I don’t know what things were like when she grew up in North Carolina, but the North Carolina I raised my children in would never condone this kind of personal slander.

    I was raised going to Sunday school and church every week and I raised my children that way. The Hagan family has attended the First Presbyterian Church for over 100 years — that’s where I’ve taught Sunday school.

    If Senator Dole wants to pass judgment on my faith, that’s her right — but that’s not the kind of response MY faith teaches.

    Join me in taking a stand against the same old tired rhetoric that divides people by contributing today.

    Your support at this critical time is imperative to our success.

    But even more so — your support right now is imperative to change the politics of our country.

    We need a new direction — leadership that will bring people together, not tear people apart. Leadership that offers new solutions, not the same old, tired rhetoric.

    The people of North Carolina have had enough. No more. It’s about time for a change.

    Yours in the fight,

    I don’t know what this is about, but I need to go find out.

  147. “What happens in an abortion is that a mother trades a potential life for an actual life.” Unless she already has children, a woman does not become a mother just by becoming pregnant. Can anybody think of a better word? (“Prego” seems a little coarse.)

  148. murphy…it isn’t the men’s fault.
    Pregnancy is a female thing. /snark

    I remember buying diapers and formula for one of the sailors under my charge. Her child was over a year old and it’s father during that time had not paid one dime of support. Despite the fact that he lived with her during the year and a half when the child was conceived, he bailed and insisted on a paternity test(which he got continued over and over again since he was stationed in Japan). Have I mentioned how much I despise the fact that women bear the brunt of responsibilty by virtue of biology and yet men insist they should have an equal say? I’d also add that my respect for Feminists for Life increased when I saw they helped push through the Child Enforcment Act- there is nothing worse then a deadbeat dad.

  149. CWaltz-

    I know. But we did have that conversation. He later told me that I shouldn’t have worried because he wouldn’t want any girl to have to make a choice that would affect her life that radically because of a moment of irresponsibility.

    My daughter and I talked about sex for the first time when she came home in fifth grade telling me about her sex ed class. I was completely astounded (and unprepared) because her school did not let us know that the class would take place.

  150. All right all, thanks for the comments and the input! Must get going. Talk to you later – and don’t watch the HypnObamaAds tonight!

    🙂

  151. speaks for itself

  152. Julies9164
    When you reply to Kay Hagen ask her to look into Dole’s stock in Blue Ribbon enterprises when she was secretary of transportation.
    Conrail had to get out the passenger railroad business and SEPTA took over in Phila.
    Conrail employees lost their jobs to Blue Ribbon.
    Blue Ribbon offered jobs that did not tell you where or when you would work but would pay 5 dollars an hour in 1983.
    I remember one job discription
    type 55 words a minute, know first aid, operate a fork lift.
    It was a conflict of interest for the secretary of transportation to have stock in a company dealing in transportation.

    COUNTRY BEFORE PARTY ALWAYS

    PUMAS,BUBBAS, AND THOSE PEOPLE RULE

  153. looking for integrity

    You’d figure they’d have sent permission slips. Weird. I probably would have said something, not so much because I mind others talking to my child about sex but because of the “abstinence only” stuff being taught. I would want to ensure that my kid got the full story, not just what is considered politically correct.

  154. LMAO!

    When was this asked and ( Meee-chelle answered for him I might add)?

  155. Hagan, waah waah. I swear to god I’m a christian. Believe me, I’m not like Barack Obama. In our church, we say god bless america. Give me money, so I can make a tv ad to prove I’m Christian.
    I guess that is what you’ll pay for if you go to the $1000-$10,000 a plate dinner with her and Clinton.
    Blegh! I can’t believe they are trying to raise that much cash with 6 days left.

  156. SOD

    I said something similar to hubby……Where is the outrage over the fertility treatments that then freeze the poor wittle embryos? Why isn’t there equal opportunity outrage over women who have fertility treatments and then get told to reduce the embryo count for the sake of viability?

  157. Well, here’s the video of the ad, which is nothing if not bizarre.

  158. looking for integrity, on October 29th, 2008 at 5:23 pm Said:

    catarina

    I disagree with you. Palin’s part of a group which supports it. She’s mentioned it in conjunction with her daughter’s pregnancy.

    I think one of the things we’ve learned through this election is not defining people and their parties as black and white. Just because we have a personal feeling about something, our experiences allow us to listen to and empathize with a person with different viewpoints.

    From what she’s said until now she supports it, and I can understand why.
    ____________________________________________
    i have no idea what you are talking about-with what, exactly, are you disagreeing?

    I have not heard Palin discuss birth control at length.
    I’d like to, but I don’t imagine she is allowed to do so before the election.

    I’m not sure what are you saying about defining people and parties either. I am voting for Palin and I hope many others can get past the choice issue in the interest of defeating Obama.

    Insofar as choice and privacy being black and white, it is for me. Not negotiable.

  159. looking for integrity
    if have info on Sarah and the birth control I’d be glad for a link.

  160. Wow! Super long thread.

    I like to think of myself as “Pro-Privacy”.

  161. New post up

  162. Wedge issues…the oldest trick in the book.

  163. catarina: http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20235099_8,00.html

  164. points where I differ:
    1.) from a biological standpoint, I think a zygote can be considered to be living. But I think you can justifiably say that its life is ephemeral. It has an expiration date if it doesn’t attach itself to its host(ess).
    2.) Technically, those fleshy bits hanging off a man’s body are called junk. I was informed of this when I used the term “nads” in a post a couple of months ago. Nads is an anachronism and the term is no longer used by people who wish to be considered youthful. Junk it is, as in, “My boyfriend uses the blueberry condoms. It makes his junk smell like pie.” (Juno)

  165. Sorry, but Obama goes way beyond pro-choice into turf were NARAL fears to tread. The Illinois law allowed the doctor to decide, prior to performing the abortion, if the baby was “viable”. If he decided that the baby wasn’t “viable” prior to the abortion, it didn’t matter legally if he’d been two months off in his estimate and the baby was full term; it was a “pre-viable fetus” under the law and he could legally just leave it in a closet to die.

    Obama voted four times to protect the status quo and deny medical care to these babies.

    Sorry, but once the baby is born, it’ s no longer in any way an issue of the woman’s body.

    What kind of coldhearted bastard can be okay with sticking a whimpering baby in a closet and leaving it to die?

  166. I guess one has to ask when we say “rare” how many is that? 47 million abortions since Roe v Wade. I don’t know the answer, is that our definition of “rare”?

    As much as I detest Obama, I think he made a monumental stride in writing into the party platform to reduce the number of abortions. Will he follow through with it or was he pandering for Christian votes, who nows.

    Personally, I would like to see the number of un-wanted pregnancies ending up in abortions reduced. So by what me we get there i.e. education, adoption ect… I think we’d be better as a society for it.

  167. I live in North Carolina. This morning I got a phone call from Minnesotta for a donation for the male Dem who is running against Michelle Bachmann for congress.

    The caller started out by saying “You have been such a strong Dem for so long…” He seemed to be aware that I had contributed to more than a half dozen congressional races in 2006 outside of my state and I no doubt seemed the easy target.

    When I told the caller I could care less about that race, or any other Democrat, he went into a scare bit about Roe v. Wade going down. I told him that old dog didn’t hunt anymore because of the sexist treatment of Hillary by her own party and Obama’s lack of interest in women’s issues.

    He became more aggressive (almost insulting) and then said “I bet you are a Puma”. I responded – “And I bet a lot of those women you call and try to shmooze with the “strong Democrat” label are blowing you off the same way I am.

    He hung up. It made my day.

  168. dee, someone from kay hagan’s campaign called mawm and he pretty much said the same thing you did. it’s like “no offense, but I will not donate to anyone who condones his behavior”….satisfying!

  169. gary- what do you make of that Dole “Kay Hagan is godless” ad?

  170. I haven’t seen it we were just saying we thought it was a lie…have you seen an ad like that?

  171. I’ve been saying it for years: I don’t give two shits if it’s an actual life or not. Nobody gets access to any part of my body without my consent, born or un.

  172. Whoops! Someone got lost…..

    (Edited by the management)

  173. so toni, you’re philosophy is to round up the people you disagree with politically and isolate them in cold desolate environment. sounds a lot like what stalin did to his enemies…just replace alaska with siberia. thanks for proving that obama supporters are nothing more than authoritarian thugs.

  174. To all commenters: This thread is under moderation by katiebird.

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