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Strawmen and Smears

A few weeks back a blogger we admire named Anglachel surprised a few of us slamming The Confluence in this post:

Back in early June, I condemned the willingness of pro-Hillary supporters to deliberately take up the racist, ratfucking bullshit of the Right to spread smears about Michelle Obama, in Visceral Reactions. The epicenter for this type of assault was (and remains) No Quarter, run by a Republican (Hillary supporter or not) and very friendly to Republican interests. Recently, The Confluence has begun serving up the same ugly mix, which is why I have dropped it from my blog roll and will have nothing to do with PUMA. The current set of posts (no, I will not link to them) serves up a toxic brew ostensibly about the current financial market and Obama’s connections to it, but is actually little more than regurgitation of the Republican racist assault on equal opportunity lending.

There is an obvious reason she did not link to (or quote from) the posts she is referring to – they don’t exist.  Oh, dakinkat and Lady Boomer put up some excellent and informative posts on the financial crisis, but not one of them was a “regurgitation of the Republican racist assault on equal opportunity lending.”  Wouldn’t you expect such a serious charge to be backed up be specific evidence? 

Today Anglachel posted this:

As I read the newspapers and the blogs about the mortgage meltdown, a certain pattern is emerging. Toxic mortgage = subprime mortgage = low income borrower = minority borrower.

I read her post several times, and it’s one of the prettiest strawmen I’ve ever seen.  Now I’ll be honest, I don’t know shit about economics.  I can’t even balance a checkbook.  But I can play connect the dots, and Anglachel hasn’t connected the dots.

Nowhere in her post does she provide an example of anyone, on the left, right or center making the case that minority borrowers were the cause of the mortgage meltdown.  She alleges that there is a “pattern” that appears in newspapers and blogs, but doesn’t back up that allegation with a shred of proof.  It doesn’t matter how good a job she does of disproving that allegation, because it’s just a strawman argument. 


212 Responses

  1. “Wouldn’t you expect such a serious charge to be backed up be specific evidence? ”

    Not really, not any more…this IS the Internet.

    Mountain Sage

  2. myiq2 .. thanks for the new word .. Misandry !

  3. I’m really conflicted because I was a big fan of Anglachel until she slammed The Confluence and PUMA the way she did.

  4. I am extremely uninterested in pseudo-intellectuals like the verbose and self-important Anglachel. The fact that she praises Mandos, a three-year-old with a Thesaurus, tells you all you need to know about her.

  5. Great Post myiq2xu,

    Any AngieNC sightings today???

    Anyway, Check this out it is a craigslist poster saying she is a former Hillary supporter


  6. madamab:

    What’s up with that anyway?

  7. Just out of curiosty,

    RD – Any particular reason we Conflucians continue promoting her site, via our blogroll, if she’s already drop-kicked us to the curb?

  8. afrocity:

    If the media was being anywhere near neutral in this race then I think Obama’s support would have evaporated.

    They treat PUMA as virtually invisible

  9. Edwardian:

    That reminds me of the classic song:

    “Drop-kick me Jesus, through the goalposts of life”

  10. Myiq – She appears to like people she resembles.

    I am shocked that she doesn’t support Obama, since she can throw out word fogs that rival his. But perhaps she is an Andrea Dworkin fan who simply will not vote for any man.

  11. I have heard Republicans on television putting forth the argument that the crisis is the result of Democrats pushing Fannie and Freddie to give more loans to low income people. This is a blatant attempt to blame the government for the problem and say that it was not the result of deregulation, allowing them to stick with their radical free market ideology. This idea was also mentioned on Morning Joe and none other than Jack Welch debunked it and said this mess was clearly the fault of private financial institutions, not Fannie and Freddie. However, I have not seen anyone posting here blaming low income people.

    Here is a good article by McClatchy about the issue. (McClatchy is a news organization that commits the sin of real reporting. They even got the pre-war WMD story correct, unlike the highly regarded W Post and NY Times. Go figure.)


  12. You could infer that the involvement of ACORN and the push for home mortgages in low income neighborhoods that ended in a conflation of mortgage paper that brought down the world’s economy has some dotted lines that go to minority buyers. But that is in itself a racist statement because it infers that low income people = AA’s and other people of color. The truth is that it was a good thing for congress to work for eliminating “redlining” in low income neighborhoods. But eliminating redlining was not enough—the practices moved well beyond that elimination of redlining to a practice of granting loans to truly unqualified borrowers. Big Dawg recognized this—a good thing (helping low income borrowers who were hard working access the credit markets) got conflated into a bad thing that went overboard and needed to be reined in. This is where Anglachel loses it. She does not seem to accept that just as the free market folks who populate the Republican side of the fence can be blind and deaf to the excesses of free market folks greed and perfidy, so can the equal access for the poor folks be blind to the excesses of the Tony Rezko’s who use help the poor programs to make themselves rich.

  13. I am so disappointed in anglacel lately. I used to love her blog and now, well, I just don’t know what to think. I know I know I certainly didn’t agree with her about the Confluence and PUMA. And I find her blanket condemnation of menfolk disturbing to say the least.

    I feel sorry for her if she has only met two men in her life that she felt wouldn’t harm her. I’ve met many. I’ve also met the other kind.

    She may be, well hell she is, a very smart woman, but to simply spew such accusations without proof is just wrong. I don’t visit as often as I once did and guess I’ll be visiting less often now.

    If I want to talk feminism I’ll come here and chat with some very smart folks, of both genders or go over to read the “reclusive leftist”. Violet is also very smart and when she says something, she is willing to back it up with proof.

    And just for the record myiq, I find misandry just as reprehensible as misogyny. Different sides of the same coin!

  14. Okay Bernie, but you’re still missing one link in the chain.

  15. Thanks myiq – for pointing out some of the hypocrisy within our own ranks.

    I echo afrocity – anyone seen angie?

  16. About the financial crisis; the Krug thinks it’s mostly Alan Greenspan’s fault for constantly pushing against regulation and touting the virtues of ARMS.

    I really think he’s got a point there.

  17. KMarge:

    Feminism doesn’t require hating men, and resonable people can disagree wiothout demonizing each other.

    I read Violet whenever she has a new post, and I respect her views on feminism as much as or more than any other feminist blogger.

  18. madamab:

    Do you recall anyone here, poster or commenter, claiming that minority borrowers caused the crisis?

  19. I third the recommendation of Violet Socks. She is a wonderful writer and a passionate, caring feminist.

  20. I understand your being upset with Anglachel about her PUMA and Confluence comments.

    However, I urge you to rethink your condemnation of her two recent posts on rape, violence against women, and misogyny. What she is essentially saying is that all men bear responsibility to make these behaviors stop since they are by and large male behaviors. And that silence about them from other men help perpetuate those behaviors, and that silence is complicity. I realize her language is provocative and in-your-face, but it is meant to challenge men to work just as hard against rape and violence and be just as outspoken against them as they are against racism.

    I understand her mistrust of men because I have a history similar to hers with respect to sexual abuse and rape and domestic violence. I think you have to go through these things to understand just how difficult it is to realize that most men look the other way about these issues.

    However, I do agree that she may have misunderstood the confluence posts about the mortgage crisis.

    Peace. I like your writings, myiq2xu.

  21. I have found Anglachel’s political analyses to have been very accurate in the past. In particular I liked her immediate comment on Mac’s choice of Sarah Palin as a direct reinforcement of his base. (As opposed to it being a reachout to disaffected Clinton supporters).

    Here her heart is in the right place, even if economic analysis is not, I believe, a strongpoint of hers, as evinced in this closing paragraph:

    I fight against this attempt to reinterpret the housing bubble and its collapse because the people with the least power in structuring this outcome are being made scapegoats for the robbery. …It directly hurts women who make up the biggest slice of the working poor and who need access to affordable housing.

    However, living in Europe where public housing is decent, I do not feel that access to affordable housing need be supplied specifically through predatory mortgage practices. There are other ways. But none perhaps so profitable to Congress members.

  22. So Molly, you agree with Anglachel that rape “is something you men evidently enjoy doing and don’t really want to see stop happening?”

    You don’t see any problem with that?

  23. afrocity – thanks for that craigslist link – I flagged it for ‘best of craigslist.’ heh heh heh

  24. Thanks for writing this, MyIQ —

    I saw in the earlier thread that you were looking for me. My Mother-In-Law just came in for a chat and that (also my addiction to Spider Solitare) distracted me.

    I AM here….

  25. Myiq – No. What upset Mandos and A was a source that dakinikat used for her post. They claim that the source is a right-wing freemarket apologist who hates AA’s.

    Knowing dakinikat the way I’ve come to, I hardly think that’s credible.

  26. myiq2xu,

    Well, I do agree with her that, if men wanted to see rape stop happening, they would work harder against it. But they don’t. So her conclusion is kind of logical, no?

    The generalization ‘you men’ may be over the top but I understand why she comes to her disheartening conclusion that men are not really doing what they need to do to make these things go away in our society.

  27. MyIQ,
    Well, looks like you and I are aparently racists AND rapists. This year has brought out the stupid in everyone.

  28. KB:

    There was a troll on the last post but it’s about mid-thread.

    The guy’s name rhymes with “Dick”

  29. On the “men approve of rape” issue — I’ve got the worlds best men in my family. My Brothers & Brother-in-Law — even all the EX Brothers in Law — I’ve never known a man who would approve of rape. In fact I don’t know guys who would approve of sexist jokes. Oh, also — after a lifetime of working in LIBRARIES, I’ve only worked with men who like and respect and love women. I’ve known hundreds of very good men over the years.

  30. MyIQ, I deleted a couple of his comments, I’ll take a look for the rest.

  31. Molly:

    How can men work harder to stop rape?

    I have never committed or attempted rape, I would not sit idly by as another man tried to commit rape, I would not associate with any man who committed or enabled rape.

    What else can I do?

  32. Rapists and child molesters have to be segregated from other men inside prisons because even murdering scum hate rapists and pedophiles.

  33. MyIQ,
    Its easy. If Anglachel (and Molly) wanted to prevent murder you would do more to stop it. They don’t do more, therefore “those people” approve of murder.

  34. madamab, You said it. The little I’ve read of Anglachel is bloated and dull.

    And IMO saying that all men are rapists is like saying all women are whores. It’s narrow-minded, mean-spirited and just plain wrong.

  35. Myiq – I agree. That is the entire problem with the overgeneralization of her post.

    Personally, I think it seems better to advocate for positive actions, rather than to blame an entire sex for the actions of some sick individuals. Voting the 30 percent solution will do more to end rape than pointing fingers, IMHO.

  36. gqm:

    Thank you, I will use that analogy in my post (giving you all the blame, er . . credit)


  37. No credit necessary or desired.

  38. myiq2xu,

    My comments were sincere and I can see this is going to devolve into something nasty here (e.g., gqmartinez, etc.), which I certainly didn’t intend, so I’m going to leave now.

    Before I Ieave, I’ll just say that I think it’s pretty obvious that rape, domestic violence, and other types of misogyny are often enabled in our society by the various boys clubs who look the other way or remain silent. I think we also all learned from the primary, if nothing else, that sexism in our society is much more acceptable than racism and that is also due to men not speaking out against it and leaving it up to women to do it. I think Anglachel is just trying to make that dichotomy change – that’s all. She’s trying to challenge men to work against these problems for the benefit of women.

    Bye, and again, I like your posts.

  39. I think the theory is that “vagina” starts with a “V” just like “victim,” while “penis” and “perpetrator” both start with a “P”

  40. Time for dinner, all. Hang in there. Love and hugs to all of you, especially the much-maligned male PUMAs.

  41. Men and boys are victims of rape too. It’s crazy to say that all men support rape!

    When I was an older teen a couple of guy friends took me to a frat party. They were very clear that I was only to accept drinks from them and no one else. Period. It wasn’t until years later that I realized why. So there you have two young men who did what they could to stop rape. My heart goes out to anyone who has not had men like this in his or her life. I’ve been lucky because I’ve had many.

  42. Stopping by quickly because yesterday I asked about Anglachel, not somebody I read much. Katiebird sent me a link and I went to the blog and read back entries, and as I said in a thread yesterday I found her work to be underwhelming.

    My advice: just don’t read what isn’t worth reading – there’s so much online and off that is.

  43. I like to think that Anglachel is suffering from a psychogenic fugue brought on by the stressful election season. She also seems to be aclassic knee jerk lefty and a risk averse person. Nertheless, some of her commentary has been brilliant. I really hate it when people you like go off the rails. Let’s not beat up on her too much.

  44. madamab, thanks for your good wishes. I do not think we are maligned. We are tougher – and more sensitive – than you might think.


  45. Molly:

    Please don’t insult our other guests. GQM said nothing “nasty” or inappropriate.

    Can you point to an example of a “boys club” that looks the other way or remains silent about rape?

    I think Anglachel accused me of being a rapist or rapist enabler.

  46. Molly, I was only pointing out the absurdity of the premise involved. People can always “do more” hence your argument will always lead to the same conclusion. If you found my logically valid argument offensive, then you’ll know what it feels like to be called a rapist.

  47. I don’t want to fan flames unnecessarily, Molly but, when you say, “the various boys clubs who look the other way or remain silent.”

    I have to point out that a lot of men don’t participate in boys clubs. It takes a certain sort of “clubby” personality to desire that level of “belongingness” and just ’cause a person is a man doesn’t mean they feel that desperate need to belong to a group.

  48. If Anglachel had just inserted the two words “some of” before “you men”, the statement would be indisputable. She makes it sound like we’re all enmeshed in some gigantic conspiracy.

    Remember in school when all the boys and all the girls were called out to separate “becoming a man” and “becoming a woman” mild-mannered sex-education sessions? Maybe Ang thinks we former boys were told “rape is OK”during our sessions. Either they left that out of my session or I wasn’t paying attention. 🙂

  49. RD, I agree that she has had some brilliant posts but I am happy that myiq is calling her out on some of the bullshit ones. That’s all.

  50. O/T but I like, madamab, must go have some dinner. I have to confess that I found myself feeling the blahs about politics today, just really down. Then a friend sent me a column by Susie Tompkins Buell and I found a way to think that made me realize that this period too shall pass. I ended up writing about it, and if anybody is looking for something that I at least intended to be productive and cheerful, you might want to take a look at

    Catch you later, Conflucians.

  51. A chemist would know:

    (from Wikipedia)

    A fugue state is a state of mind characterized by abandonment of personal identity, along with the memories, personality and other identifying characteristics of individuality. The fugue state is a condition of Dissociative Fugue (formerly Psychogenic Fugue).

    As the person experiencing a Dissociative Fugue may have recently suffered the reappearance of an event or person representing an earlier life trauma, the emergence of an armoring or defensive personality seems to be for some, a logical apprehension of the situation.

    The Merck Manual defines Dissociative Fugue as:

    One or more episodes of amnesia in which the inability to recall some or all of one’s past and either the loss of one’s identity or the formation of a new identity occur with sudden, unexpected, purposeful travel away from home.

    In support of this definition, the Merck Manual further defines Dissociative Amnesia as:

    An inability to recall important personal information, usually of a traumatic or stressful nature, that is too extensive to be explained by normal forgetfulness.

  52. RD:

    Anglachel has accused THIS blog of serving up “racist, ratfucking bullshit of the Right.”

    I don’t think I am going off the rails by disagreeing with that.

  53. I haven’t read the Anglachel post in question, but I recognize the argument. PLEASE NOTE: I’m only reporting what I’ve read, not arguing in favor of this theory.

    The feminist analysis is that men defend other men who rape and question the motives of the victims because violence against women–especially rape–is an important means by which society keeps women down. The fact that pornography is full of violence against women is used as support for this notion. The argument as I understand it is that this is an unconscious process in most men, so Anglachel has apparently gotten it a wrong. Saying “you men enjoy rape” doesn’t seem to be a good way of reaching out to the other gender to talk about societal issues.

    I do agree that we live in a culture that accepts violence against women as a given and something that cannot be completely controlled. Think about it: murdered women’s bodies are found every day in this country. It would be interesting to see a comparison of the number of women who are victims of violence as opposed to hate crimes against African American males.

  54. Long-time lurker – first time poster here: Hi!

    Seems like just having a conversation these days is the equivalent of trying to make one’s way across a minefield; I feel like I did when I first started speaking a foreign language and I was constantly translating in my head before I could speak. Now, depending on who I am talking with, there is a whole lexicon that has gone and gotten itself assigned a “racist” or “sexist” meaning, and there’s a legion of people ready to declare everything I’ve said meaningless because I used one of those newly loaded words. I’m getting a headache. And it’s making me cranky.

    Anglachel has taken the “some say…” school of attack to the next level; she now names names, but doesn’t bother to make sure that those she names actually did what she accuses them of. It’s common and it’s cheap and it’s lazy, and it smacks of jealousy.

    It’s actually kind of pitiful that people who have staked out the moral high ground on issues of race and gender have no problem defending their precious territory by engaging in decidedly immoral attacks, but the universe has a way of taking them down in a paybacks-are-a-bitch kind of way; it’s only a matter of time.

    Thanks for letting me vent a little.

  55. What Katiebird said. I don’t lower my moral standards to accomodate the depravity of adolescent punks in grown mens’ bodies, and if the “boys’ clubs” don’t like it, they are welcome to pucker up and kiss my arse.

    If more rapists were gelded, there would be fewer rapes. There’s how much tolerance I have for the punks who give my gender a bad name.

  56. Katiebird,

    I’m also addicted to spider solitaire. Horribly addicted.

  57. RD: I caught your remark upthread. I don’t mean to beat up on Anglachel. As I said, I haven’t been a regular reader of hers. Therefore I think I will butt out of this discussion. But I must say this before I go. Some of the most supportive people in my own political efforts this year have been men; very few gender generalizations really apply completely.

  58. The best thing I learned in grad school was to question everything and everyone, even people you trust. Everyone is wrong at times. I don’t take one or two (or even several) wrong or bad arguments by people to be a reason not to trust them. A consistent bad record, OTH, means I don’t trust them or rely on them anymore.

    This also means that I realize I may be wrong. In fact, there is nothing like getting your ass handed to you during journal clubs and lab meetings. Which is the second best thing I learned in grad school: challenging arguments is NOT personal.

    Interestingly, you don’t need to go to grad school to learn those same things.

  59. The borrowers are not to blame it’s the lenders and brokers who made the upfront $$. And what’s up with the scarey clown picture and just who hides behind that?? and do your words flow just as ——— when you are not as lubricated?? just saying- scary-clown.

  60. OMG – Fox News and Berg’s website declares the judge dismissed declaring “we the people do not have a right to police the qualifications of the person who would be our President”!

    This is so fucked up.

    It is going to the Supreme Court!

  61. myiq2xu,

    Clearly Anglachel has gone off the rails. I’m wondering if she is being seduced into the Obama zone by her friends and neighbors. Now that she doesn’t have Hillary to focus on, she must be tempted to go over to the dark side. In her efforts to resist this temptation and push it away from consciousness, she is lashing out at other blogs and at men–because she is tempted to support a man who hates women.

    Psychoanalysis over.

  62. what is happening to the PUMAs or the ones who suppor the PUMAs. All I see people doing now is bashing each other.

    Wouldn’t the time be better spend talking about Obama’s flip-flops or Joe Biden’s recent interview, and the fact that the Obama campaign canceled the Jill Biden interview with the same reporter, because they didn’t like the fact that the reporter asked Joe Biden tough questions.

  63. I am going to edit my original post to delete the references to the two earlier posts.

    My main point in this post is the allegations against The Confluence and her strawman argument today.

    Please confine your comments to that portion of my post or to other unrelated topics.

  64. bostonboomer, I was just looking up those stats (male killer, female victim) the other day but the links are all on my office computer and I’m too lazy to search them out again. It’s something ridiculous, like 96% of female victims are killed by men. I’m terrible at retaining this stuff, but I’m pretty sure it was that high. That’s not even counting rape and assault. Most black men are killed by black men. And most white men are killed by white men. Most women of any race are killed by men.

  65. riverdaughter, on October 25th, 2008 at 7:21 pm Said:

    I like to think that Anglachel is suffering from a psychogenic fugue brought on by the stressful election season. She also seems to be aclassic knee jerk lefty and a risk averse person. Nertheless, some of her commentary has been brilliant. I really hate it when people you like go off the rails. Let’s not beat up on her too much.
    I have not read her blog much recently but a month(?) ago or so she had family(?) health issues to deal with and didn’t post much for several weeks. When she came back “on-line” there seemed to be a change in her attitude and I stopped reading. She may be having problems that affect her judgment.

  66. COMPLETELY OT: I thought it might cheer us up a bit.

    Golden oldies discover love at first byte


    “Sociologist Sue Malta, at Swinburne University’s Faculty of Life and Social Sciences, says her study shows older adults have a voracious appetite for the internet and sex.

    And, Malta says, they are using one to ensure they are not short of the other.

    She says the results overturn two stereotypes prevalent within our community: that older people are asexual and are not technology savvy.

    “That old stereotype that you get to a certain age and you don’t want to do it any more is not true,” she says.

    The participants were aged from 60 to 92 years and included those involved in online relationships and a smaller group that had first met face to face.

    She says her findings suggest online relationships between older people become sexually intimate faster and are of shorter duration.”

  67. Gxm, what proportion of all murders are committed by men? That should also be included. If 90% of all murders are by men, you’d expect a very high percentage of female murders to be done by men. It would be odd if not.

  68. “. Most women of any race are killed by men.”
    IIRC, the leading cause of death of pregnant women in the US is homicide.

  69. When did Fox mention Berg??? Anyone know?
    I still say that is why Obama went to Hawaii. He saw Granny for all of one hour. The kids did not go or anything he is such a liar.

    By the way I know I keep posting this link, but this Biden clip of his interview yesterday with this female reporter is going viral on You Tube:

  70. Most murders are committed by men, but most men do not commit murder.

  71. I didn’t link on the article from Bernie0, but I’m surprised he finds McClatchy fair and balanced. Although I formerly read them, I found them extremely biased against Hillary, and pro-Obama. I still do.

  72. Most crime period, is committed by men. I can dig up my source. I once owned, but do not now, a book on crime statistics that dealt with crime, and violent assault on a global basis. Men are overwhelmingly more likely to commit and be caught and punished for crimes of all sorts. War, an extreme from of violence, commonly results in extreme violence toward women as many on this site have already mentioned.

    The misogyny we are seeing in this Presidential race, and the terrible attacks on Hillary Clinton and Sarah Palin, are not hallmarks of a truly civilized and enlightened society.

  73. “Golden oldies discover love at first byte ”
    Also the demographic with the highest % increase in STDs.

  74. Molly,

    If you are still here, I understand where you’re coming from. But frankly some women in our society are as brainwashed as some men when it comes to misogyny. One thing that has become very clear during this long and horrible ordeal of the 2008 presidential election is that those of us who have been shocked and turned off by the sexism we have seen are both male and female. And we are apparently a minority in our culture.

    Even so-called “feminists” have turned on Hillary and especially Sarah Palin. Women are often their own worst enemies. I think it’s very important that those of us who have seen clearly what has happened stick together in solidarity. I totally understand why men like Myiq, JohninCA, and gqmartinez are so upset about this.

    IMHO, what Anglchel is doing is attempting to cause divisions in a community where we have found some unity in fighting against misogyny being used as a tool to win an election.

  75. Oh, and what myiq said. Implication reversal is a sadly all too common fallacy – responsible, IMO, for racial and other profiling.

  76. oh, wow, this again?

  77. afrocity thanks for putting the interview on youtube. Too bad the media isn’t covering it.

  78. Afrocity: I saw that astonishing interview, and I’ve seen that link all over the tubes today. The thing is, Biden was not only condescending, he was clearly dishonest. Obama has indeed contributed money to ACORN, that’s just one lie he spouted.

  79. unrelated topic per myiq’s request-please leave a comment:
    Venice Gondoliers Sing: “Vote for Obama” (assholes)
    Set to the tune of “Volare,” gondoliers in Venice stump for Obama.

    Obama, oh oh, Joe Biden Vice President.

    Only in Italian accents does the word “can” sort of rhyme with “president” (presidennn).
    Very catchy. Who thought such a romantic backdrop could deliver a political punch.


  80. They rather do another hit job on Palin with un-named sources.

  81. catarina: Maybe if citizens of other countries spent more time getting to know Obama, and face him as their leader, we’d hear a lot less of their crap.

    Me, I’m going with Poor James and the whatevers, they rocked.

  82. Greta is now going to highlight it on her show. She is asking all 4 submit their qualifications.

  83. Rape is a very specific Crime. ergo, Anglachel is saying that ALL men are Criminals (at least in their hearts), which is a ridiculous premise on its face. I perfectly understand why myiq is outraged by her statement as quoted above.

    While I wholeheartedly agree that this campaign season with all its blatant misogyny has encouraged verbal/virtual violence against women, it still takes a criminal to take it to the physical plane.

    I’m with riverdaughter in sadness that Anglachel has “gone off the rails” as I respected and appreciated her thought-provoking journal entries during the primaries. For the most part, her analysis was very good. I find her much more difficult to read lately, with long sections of her posts simply quoting other bloggers and, instead of analysis, flinging accusations far and wide on every topic.

    I, too, endorse Dr. Violet Socks @ Reclusive Leftist for wonderful *discussions* about femininism.

  84. dakinkat:

    I was hoping you would show up, since you were the target of the original slam against us.

  85. GQM, I’m going by memory and I’m not the best at retention. The crime rate for women has been gaining at about 0.1% every year for the last three years. This is all crime and it’s somewhere around 75% male vs 25% female. They listed the homicide breakdown but I don’t recall it off the top of my head. Female crimes were mostly theft and drug related. Males dominated the violent crimes at somewhere around 90%.

  86. i have decided to replace yahoo as my home page. i can’t handle anymore bullxxxx there waiting for me breathlessly describing how obama is surging. i don’t like surges anyway. after ike i now have a dim view of them.

    it seems to me that a lot of so called smart people have gone off the rails. shame on them! i have added posters who do that to my do not read list. i’ll rethink after the election, but for sure i won’t ever go back to kos, talk left or tmp. had it !

  87. I can’t respond to her new post. I haven’t done more than glance at it. However, if you were looking for some info on how minorities get, or have been accused, maybe these will help.



    Posting in the SFGate last year, I can’t tell you how much anger I read towards the lump of “minorities, and ignorant people”, who were losing homes, because, because because.

  88. Biden is so snarky… He has that same backstabbing laugh that Obama has.

    The American Think article has received so many comments from PUMAS


  89. stodgie,

    I’ve had The Confluence as my homepage since around the end of February. Why would you want to wake up to Yahoo news?

  90. Afrocity,

    I read the American Thinker article when you linked it earlier today. I found it very interesting.

    The Biden interview was a little strange. Who was that woman asking the questions. It’s pretty ridiculous that she asked if Obama is a Marxist. He certainly isn’t, as anyone who has looked at his health plan should know.

  91. BB, me too. And I keep it open in about 3 other windows too!

  92. roofingbird:

    I skimmed your two links but I didn’t see anything that justifies Anglachel’s strawman. Donald Wildmon is a fringe-right religious leader.

    Where is the evidence of newspapers and blogs putting out a pattern or stories blaming the mortgage crisis on minority borrowers?

  93. Most of Anglachel’s work before August was very, very good. I wouldn’t call it underwhelming or bloated. She did a very good job of analyzing the Democratic primaries. I may not like the recent attitude that she has taken towards PUMAs and McCain Democrats but I give credit where it is due.

    Anglachel is NOT like an Obama supporter. She has said that she will no longer support male politicians unless they prove through their words and actions that they will work for women’s interests. Fair enough. Anglachel IS however a knee jerk liberal but I doubt she would ever support any man who undermines and smears a woman candidate the way Obama did to Hillary in the primaries. That is probably the only reason preventing Anglachel from not voting for Obama. I’m sure if he had been civil and not use dirty tactics in the primaries that Anglachel would’ve probably looked past his flip flops and lies because he is a Democrat.

    As for her post calling all men rapists, read my comments in previous threads. I find her comments similar to feminist Catherine McKinnon who is wants to make all pornography illegal (something I’m sure most men think is nuts see No Quarter post: http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/10/14/late-night-obamabot-pornography-open-thread/) or that some feminists believe that any form of sex that places women in a subordinate position and only satisfies the man (giving a bj, anal) is rape.

    I respect all of these beliefs and I even agree with some of them. However, I understand why most men would probably disagree with some of the above statements. You don’t need to agree with Angalchel’s views on men and rape. I personally think she should have said MOST men instead of all men. I think that most men are silent when it comes to violence against women. That’s why you see most women’s studies courses with 90%+ women and why you only see a handful of brave men who walk alongside women in Take Back the Night marches or pro-choice rallies.

    I’m sure that the men who take feminism seriously most likely voted for Clinton in the primaries. I said in a previous thread that most of the misogynistic jerks I knew in school ended up supporting Obama in the primaries and went right along with the violent and sexist rhetoric spewed by the media about Clinton. IF most men had any sense, we would have seen more of them in the DNC and the media defend Clinton. However, we did not. So I think Anglachel absolutely has made some valid points that should be considered even if we don’t agree with all of them.

  94. bostonbomber,

    I don’t care. Granted, she should have said socialist. As a reporter she can ask him whatever she wants. I am sick of the media treating these idiots with kid gloves. They treat sarah Palin like crap, yet the BOTS are screaming bloody murder about this video.

  95. I know we’re supposed to drop this topic but I just want to add one more opinion and then I’ll stop.

    Women rape too. Nowhere near the same rate as men, but female rapists do exist. Rape is a people issue. Men and women will need to work together to rid the world of sexual violence. Instead of pointing fingers, IMO it would be best to join arms.

    That’s it. I’ll shut up now. I apologize if I’ve offended or annoyed anyone.

  96. Afrocity- I was thinking a reason he went to Hawaii might be this:


    he does seem to fly away and let his group handle things when uncomfortable things are happening.

  97. Disenfranchised:

    The closest thing I ever saw to a lynch mob happened in a bar when a man hit his girlfriend.

    The bouncers had to intervene to protect the man from the other men in the bar. The man was arrested and turned over to the police.

    I was one of the bouncers

  98. Dakinikat

    Can you post on this?

  99. Boy – my hubby and i went out for dinner and suddenly there’s so much to catch up with.
    Bernie But that is in itself a racist statement because it infers that low income people = AA’s and other people of color.
    Nooo, it’s not racist because the majority of homeowners – low or middle income are white –
    WHERE is ANGIE???
    Oh, poop, rape is a power issue and male or female it has little to do with sex.

  100. Where IS Angie?

  101. Once you cross the border into Left Blogistan you don’t need proof, or evidence, or truth, or decency. If the other guy didn’t say what you’d like to refute, say he used a code word. Or a dog whistle. Or just call him the r word.

    At least she invented a new r word– rapist. I’ll give her that.

  102. I don’t recall anyone here blaming lower income homebuyers for the housing collapse or assuming that lower income = minorities.

    My opinion on providing loans to lower income people is that more should have been done. IMO, the folks who took advantage of these people are the lowest of the low. Programs for lower income homeowners should be structured in a way that provides support in cases of illness, job loss or family emergency. And there should be barriers in place so that these folks are not abused by a greedy lenders.

    It is a great idea and a worthwhile investment to help lower income people purchase homes so they can benefit from the advantages of homeownership. It just needs to be a carefully crafted and ethically administered program.

  103. The Road Ahead

    In 1995 Bill Gates, Nathan Myhrvold and Peter Rinearson published a book with this title that discussed a likely future that would be deeply influenced and shaped by a global interactive network. They did not foresee the Internet as such at the time of writing the book. Yet such a global interactive network now exists, and social networking on a national and international scale is an everyday reality.

    What, then, of the Road Ahead for Conflucians?

    McCain/Palin or Obama/Biden will take this election. The latter team is looking stronger, but who knows? If McCain/Palin take the prize there is little doubt, in my mind, that Sarah Palin will be the darling of the conservative movement, and a hero to many Americans: deservedly so, as the first female VP. Where does that leave Conflucians and their support for Hillary Clinton? Now before you all shout “2012”, think for a moment that by then Sarah Palin will have been VP for 4 years. It is, in my mind, very likely given McCain’s age, that the Republicans will be grooming her for the Presidential race in 2012. She is now extremely popular. She might, by 2012, be less popular but she will be, I think, still way more popular than Hillary. With careful grooming, Sarah Palin will be very experienced, – the most experienced women, and far and way by today’s standards, the most experienced candidate for the job: very experienced and very popular. In this scenario, what is the road ahead for Conflucians? Where do we stand in relation to our current support for Hillary? Will the road ahead be an all-out effort, beginning November 5, 2008 to get Hillary into the White House in 2012? How will we deal with the Palin factor? We need not only vision, but also discipline.

    Now to the other scenario, in which Obama/Biden take the prize – currently thought by many pundits to be the more likely outcome. What is the road ahead for Conflucians under this scenario? If Obama takes the Presdiency he will be a hero to millions of Americans, and millions worldwide. He will be see, again rightly so, as the vanquisher of the evil Bush regime. He will not seem quite as terrible as many currently think he will be, and he will be nowhere near as effective as his supporters imagine. In a nutshell, he will disappoint. Great promise, no substance. But will Hillary Clinton be able to mount a serious run against a Present Obama in 2012. I am not known for lacking in imagination, yet I cannot see how she could reasonably pull this off.

    There are a couple of sub-scenes to an Obama/Biden win. One is that BO really in not qualified to be President and the Supreme Court agrees that appropriate documentation must be forthcoming and it is not. The Presidency is then assumed temporarily by Biden (stop laughing!!) until Congress, or someone, figures out what to do (OMG – 24 years later … ). Another sub-scene is that Obama messes up truly badly and resigns before he is impeached. Unlikely, in my view – it didn’t happen to Bush – but possible.

    What, in these scenarios, is the road ahead for Conflucians. I feel that the first scenario is in a sense easier for us to deal with, but that the second might really test our creative resolve. And now I come full circle. Just 13 years ago Bill Gates and colleagues envisioned global networking, but could not quite see the Internet. Now RD has established, nurtured, cradled, coddle, and kicked the confluence into the very positive force, and tool, that it s today. RD, the Confluence, the wonderful writers and contributors have, IMO, re-established people’s democracy – for We the People – in the most peaceful and creative of ways. IMO, THIS is the way ahead. Whoever is President, the Confluence is the real silver lining of this awful election period. Hillary was, and is, the motivation for its creation, RD its creative birth-mother and guiding light. It lives, it influences. May it grow, prosper, and continue to invigorate democracy in this country.

    That, I think, is the Road Ahead.

  104. myiq – I don’t know but I miss her analysis here.

    Afrocity – did you see this other link from American Thinker with a lot of actual NUMBERS behind why they believe BO won’t win?


  105. You apparently know who Wildmon is, but younger folk don’t. I think the problem arises with the latter NYT article written in 1999, but resurfacing this year. Wildmon and others made use of this. The miscommunication arises when we discuss was a sub prime loan is. Clinton wanted Fannies Mae’s use of them to have a structure and be “One Notch Below” in credit. Of course there is a broader range, which was taken over by the subprime lenders.

    […Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.

    In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980’s.

    ”From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,” said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ”If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.”

    Under Fannie Mae’s pilot program, consumers who qualify can secure a mortgage with an interest rate one percentage point above that of a conventional, 30-year fixed rate mortgage of less than $240,000 — a rate that currently averages about 7.76 per cent. If the borrower makes his or her monthly payments on time for two years, the one percentage point premium is dropped.

    Fannie Mae, the nation’s biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings….]

    To those of us that promulgated affirmative action, this may look like an encouraging comment. However, even though 82% of the subprime mortgages went somewhere else. The newspaper has succeeding in planting in our minds that there is a correlation with black borrowers and subprime mortgages. Also note that this was only a 13% increase, as 5% already received loans.

    Fast-forward nine years, and this article gets passed as new information to 360,000 or so websites. You would be amazed how many readers don’t even check publication dates.

  106. Afrocity,

    I just wondered who the woman interviewer was. I’ve never seen her before. Do you know what network the interview was on?

    Obama is not a socialist, even though he was apparently willing to work with socialists and Marxists like Bill Ayers to move up in Chicago politics. If anything Obama is more like a Republican than a Democrat. If he were a socialist, he wouldn’t have gotten such broad support from Goldman Sachs, Lehmann Brothers, and other Wall Street firms. They are his biggest supporters. Do you realize that Ben Bernacke has endorsed Obama?

    All you have to do is read Obama’s health care plan to know that he isn’t anything resembling a socialist. He is a privatizer, and will very likely try to privatize social security. When he talked about spreading the wealth around, all he meant was that we need to return to a more progressive income tax structure. If we don’t do that, the United States is going to go back to the dark ages with a small number of wealthy families using the majority of us as serfs. We will have no middle class left if the Bush tax cuts continue.

  107. Love your Road Ahead analysis, urge.

    I can’t believe it has only been 13 years.

    And I agree that The Confluence, and others who think our way, has been the silver lining this year.

  108. Almost entirely off topic.

    Teleprompter President

  109. myiq2xu,

    Why don’t you e-mail Angie and ask her to come back? I thought of doing it, but I didn’t know if she would want me to e-mail her privately.

  110. scrubs57, on October 25th, 2008 at 8:31 pm Said:

    I can’t believe it has only been 13 years.

    Time flys, scrubs my old son, when you’re having fun!
    Which is why this f!$%&ing election is taking so bloody long!!

  111. BB:

    She never gave me her email, and I don’t know if it’s appropriate to access it through here.

  112. I miss angie, what happened?

  113. myiq: she had to give RD her email. Could RD contact her? Too many of us are fretting. (Of course, she’s probably won the lottery and is drinking champagne from a glass slipper in Paris, as we speak).

  114. I’ve already commented on Anglachel’s post on last night’s late thread, and I won’t repeat here what I said there. I’ll just add to it.

    I don’t know Anglachel personally, and it is from a dispassionate distance that I form the opinions that follow, based on my reading of her post. I think that Anglachel was trying to be deliberately provocative, and it is to mainly this that I attribute the tone of her post. I think it was constructed as a challenge, and a bait as well, to the men who would be reading the post. I think a few of the men who left comments on that post did a good job of at least understanding the argument that Anglachel was trying to make. And she did build an argument which, to me, and for the purpose rousing thought in a span of a few seconds and within the space of a short post, was reasonable in construction if not in sensibility. I, for one, appreciate that I read the post, if only for the reason that it gave me things to think about regarding a serious matter to women. I, of course, am a woman, and I readily admit that, upon reading the post, the word misandry did not come to mind. I viewed the post pretty much as I outlined above.

  115. myiq2xu,

    Do you really think she would be upset if one of us e-mailed her?

  116. roofingbird:

    A single nine year-old article getting emailed around is not a pattern seen in newspapers and blogs.

    If she has the evidence, why didn’t she provide it? She didn’t have to compile an exhustive list, just a few typical and relevant examples would have done it.

    And that still doesn’t address her orignal unfounded slam at us.

  117. bb: my take on angie is that she would understand that her fiends here are fretting.

  118. Whoops: “friends”!!

  119. myiq2xu,

    You are exactly right. And yet she managed to link to Mandos’ post in the same article. The accusation of racism and “Republican talking points” (which Obama uses a lot) are generally unsourced these days. In fact the NYT apparently called McCain’s campaign “racist” in an editorial without providing any evidence.


  120. BB: That interviewer’s name is West [Barbara?, I’d have to check that] and she’s in Orlando. She did the interview by satellite, I think.

  121. If Anglachel had simply said that there is more rape in this society than we realize or care to admit, I’d have agreed. Instead, she raped her readers’ minds with her crazed rantings.

    Feminism isn’t a license for libel. I don’t have the right to conclude from the life of John Gotti that “you Sicilians” are born racketeers, or that the Cosa Nostra is something that Italians would “like to continue.”

  122. BB:

    She could also have disagreed with one of more specific posts without slamming the whole blog as well as the PUMA coalition.

  123. myiq2xu:
    “She never gave me her email, and I don’t know if it’s appropriate to access it through here.”

    But Myiq! When have you ever worried about being inappropriate?

  124. Afrocity, I don’t know about a Fox News mention of Berg’s case, but here’s the link to the WND article:

  125. “When have you ever worried about being inappropriate?”

    When it crosses the line into unethical

  126. The guilt by association thing is getting pretty tired. Seems like lazy thinking to me. It’s just too hard to explain complications-much easier to generalize blame. That type of lazy thinking brought us BO.

    I’ve never read Anglachel, but I have to wonder based on what I’ve read here what may have happened to her in the last month. Sounds like exhaustion and/or misery talking.

  127. myiq, I was teasing. you know that, don’t you?

  128. parentofed,

    Thanks for that info on the interviewer. I’m going to see what I can find out about her. I had thought maybe she was on one of the financial channels or something. I couldn’t believe it when she quoted Marx to Biden. I definitely see Obama as authoritarian, but he favors big business, not the proletariat, as far as I can tell.

  129. joaniebone:

    I thought you were just being “deliberately provocative”

  130. Britania,
    I agree with your interpretation of Anglachel’s post.

  131. of course I’m deliberately provacative! I’ve based my sense of style around it since I turned legal!

    (now my iq, was that a serious comment? i can’t really tell–because there seems to be an uncharacteristic lack of humor here. but if it was a serious comment, I hoped that you had a better sense of me than that.)

  132. I think Anglachel’s post on whose to blame in the housing crisis takes the contemporary commentary out of context and interprets it in a way that I do not think has ever really existed. It is a documented fact that a big push to help more families access the mortgage market has been a national policy. Home ownership in America is seen as both an economic and social good. That policy did result in pressure on banks and Fannie and Freddie to make more loans to people and in places that would not have qualified in the past. Some of those loans were predatory and some were simply economically unsound. (No job, no down payment, no proof of income etc). F&F increasingly provided the secondary market for those loans to be packaged in portfolios and sold to different kinds of loan funders (banks, hedge funds, securities firms, overseas investors etc.). When the borrowers began to default as the economy slowed, the house of cards began to fall and at the bottom of the heap were those sub prime mortgage borrowers. BUT they did not create the mess above them. That mess was created by the mismanagement, greed, stupidity and avarice of financial market manipulators who were leveraging those securitized loan portfolios 100 to 1. So when the little guy (the 1) went down, the 100 on top of him came down too. He had nothing to do with creating that whipped cream topping.

    It is true to say that the loan defaults triggered the crisis. It is false to say that the people who defaulted caused the crisis or the severity of the crisis. They did not create that giant superstructure. It’s like if someone went out and laid the foundation for a small new house; someone else comes in and puts this big structure on that foundation that is too big for the foundation to support. The foundation builder finds he can’t build his little house so he abandons the foundation incomplete and unfinished. Is he then responsible for the collapse of the giant structure somebody else built on top of his new foundation? I think not.

  133. And here’s a link to an even more informative article from America’s Right: http://www.americasright.com/2008/10/lawsuit-against-obama-dismissed-from.html

  134. Jangles:

    Like I said, I don’t know shit about economics.

    But I never saw anyone here blaming the crisis on minority borrowers.

  135. I want to comment on the rape dialog.

    Until we are fed up as a society – all of us it will continue to happen. Look at our sentencing for child rapists. Slap on the wrist. How many times do we blame the victim? We’re not angry enough. I ask how are we raising our boys that this is acceptable? I hear too many times families circling the wagon around the male – he’s a good guy. Blah, blah, blah.

    RD found the right post yesterday – woman is the n–ger of the world (I hate that word)

  136. parentofed,

    I found her–thanks! Barbara West of WFTV-Channel 9 in Orlando. I thought her interview was very professional. She certainly wasn’t rude. While I was surprised by the Marx question, she certainly had a right to ask it. That kind of talk is going around on the right since the Joe the Plumber incident. In addition, Biden lied when he said that the campaign never gave any money to ACORN. He was weaseling, because the money was spend during the primaries and paid to a subsidiary of ACORN.

    From the Orlando Seninel:

    The Barack Obama campaign called Barbara West’s interview with Sen. Joe Biden unprofessional and combative.

    The veteran WFTV-Channel 9 anchor-reporter says she asked pointed questions and respects Sen. Biden, who is Sen. Obama’s running mate.

    In a call to me Friday evening, West (pictured) said of Biden: “I have a great deal of respect for him. I have a great deal of respect for Sen. Obama. We are given four minutes of a satellite window for these interviews. Four precious minutes. I got right down to it and, yes, I think I asked him some pointed questions. These are questions that are rolling about right now and questions that need to be asked. I don’t think I was rude or inconsiderate to him. I think I was probing and maybe tough. I can’t believe that in all of his years in politics, and all of his campaigning and such, that he hasn’t run into some tough questions before. He’s certainly up to it in giving good answers.”

  137. With my customary good timing, this will likely prove the last post in this thread. Just wanted to say, after reading nearly all the comments above, that coming to the Confluence is like visiting an alternate universe. One filled with people who are alternately perplexed, depressed, hopeful, angry, exuberant, mischievous (even raunchy), funny, perceptive, searching, touchy, informative, but always always thoughtful and deeply sincere. Sure nice to have a place where I can feel so unguarded and at home.

  138. on what looking for integrity?

  139. That’s an excellent summary, Jangles.

  140. Kat5,

    I feel the same way. I think we have let ourselves be open, because we have always felt protected here. RD made the decision early on not to put up with trolls. This is really our refuge.

  141. Brittania, would that it were so. But when Lawrence Summers made what are now generally regarded as disparaging remarks about women’s ability in science he was removed as President of Harvard. Was he not allowed to be “deliberately provocative” ? Apparently not. Yet Anglachel can accuse me of being complicit in rape and you regard that as mereley being deliberately provocative?

  142. Jangles comments are really right on …

  143. myiq2xu,

    I think Anglachel’s problem is that once she saw us being dissed at other pro-Hillary blogs and at Corrente, she didn’t want to be stuck out here in the darkness with us pumas. She doesn’t have the same grit and guts that we do. I don’t give a s**t what anyone thinks of me.

  144. myiq, regarding benefit of the doubt:

    please refer to the comment I left at the very end of your “ex-wife injured” post several hours back.

    goodnight guys, feeling tired now.

  145. ‘nite, joaniebone. Sleep well.

  146. So early, joaniebone? Well, get rested and come back soon.


  147. Are all gay men rapists of women too? Just wondering…

    I think Anglachel is a narcissist and loves the sound of her own voice (or the sound of her keyboard, whatever.)

  148. Being “deliberately provocative” is a legitimate method of stimulating thought and discussion.

    It should be used carefully, because if you provoke a fight rather than a discussion it is counter-productive.

    However, I see no evidence that Anglachel was using that tactic rather than expressing her true beliefs.

    I see people assuming she didn’t really mean it because they recognize it that what she said was way over-the-top.

  149. urgetocompute,

    Larry Summers was in a position of power over a lot of women. Anglachel is just a blogger. I don’t think she was being deliberately provocative and neither was Summers. They were both saying out loud exactly what was in their minds.

    BTW, I’m not taking a position on whether Summers should have been fired. I never thought he should have been hired in the first place, though.

  150. Goodnight Joaniebone!

  151. But of course. Socialist=black, Democrats against regulation of Fanny/Freddie=black, Barney Frank, Bill Ayres, Nancy Pelosi=Black.
    Why? Because this is the post-racial society, silly.
    Black is the new “National Security”/Terra

  152. Joanie, You came and went while I was out 😦

    Are you really gone?

  153. KB:

    Your little sister just did a drive-thru tonight.

  154. myiq,

    Remember when Olbermann said Hillary should be taken in a room by a man and only the man should come out? Anglachel said straight out that Olbermann was recommending the murder of Hillary Clinton. A lot of people thought that was way over the top. This is similar except that she apparently didn’t use any qualifiers like “some men.”

    She appears to be someone who enjoys this type of argument. In the case of Olbermann I kind of thought it was effective. In the present case, it clearly isn’t effective. Instead of making people think, it just angers them.

  155. Did anyone else check out the post above from roofingbird?

  156. After Anglachel wrote the “all men are rapists” post, I came to the conclusion that I have no more use for her writing. This latest froth of weblog spewage does nothing to change my opinion in that regard. I’m going out on a limb here to say that Anglachel might need a cranial screw tightened.

  157. BB:

    In KO’s case she was calling out one man, not all, many, most or some men.

    Remember how Mandos gleefully accused us all of racism? Was he being deliberately provocative too?

    All he did was piss people off

  158. The first step towards solving the climate change issue would be for smear-mongering bloggers to quit spewing their intellectual gas into the atmosphere.

  159. myiq2xu,

    Yes, that was my point. She was effective when she used an over-the-top argument to demonsrate the media misogyny represented by Olberman. She was ineffective when she made an all-encompassing argument about men in general. She messed up. She likes taking an argument to the extreme, but in this case it didn’t work for her or her audience.

  160. Thanks for looking up that Biden interview reporter. Isn’t that amazing. Her interview of Biden is what every interview of Palin has been from the MSM—hard hitting, probing—and he pops a cork. I think the question from each according to his ability to each according to his need—the Marxist ? was absolutely appropriate and really threw Biden. The whole class warfare thing—income redistribution—is at the heart of that Marxist slogan. It is there that the Adam Smith, free market folks have a winning point. Don’t use tax policy to redistribute existing wealth, use tax policy to help more people develop wealth.

    Obama’s economic message is crazy to me. He says e.g. that he wants to end the Iraq presence and use that money to pay for his spending plans. Yet the whole Iraq war has been a “supplementary” off-budget appropriation—deficit spending. If you end the Iraq war, you end the deficit spending. The Dem proposal for 300 billion more in stimulus for infrastructure—I’m sorry folks but that is going to be earmark city. I am still trying to find out more specifics on the Dem proposal to take over all 401 k

  161. urgetocompute, I do not want to argue/discuss because I don’t think I have anything more substantial to say about the matter. I have only so much brain cells, and reading Anglachel is always a stretch for me (spelling her name is already torture for me). I am also quite biased and will probably end up whining if I insist on arguing. I will just say that I read Anglachel’s entire post and tried to understand her arguments.

  162. Maybe joaniebone will come back. It’s still pretty early on the West Coast.

  163. Riverdaughter has requested that we keep out commentary about Anglachel within appropriate bounds.

    Name-calling and personal insults will not be tolerated.

  164. Wow, this whole rape thing is disturbing. I was raped when I was 9 and my own grandmother paid the young man to leave and never come back because she didn’t want it to go through the courts. I absolutely HATED men for many years. I used them, and I abused them. I slept with them after a few weeks, and dumped them the next morning. Never dated a guy I went to school with.

    I finally realized that not all men were scum. Not all men were out to use me. Not all men approved of what other men did to women. I learned this in the Army of all places where women represented 3% so many, many years ago. The men who surrounded me protected me. The men I worked with wouldn’t let me leave a bar with a strange man. The men I worked with asked me why I was so self destructive and why I would allow any man to use me. The men I worked with made me realize I needed to respect myself, the way they respected me. The men I worked with got into fights in bars to stop them from walking out with me.

    I don’t know, I think there are a lot of men out there who are willing to stand up to other men who are doing the wrong thing.

  165. Hannity’s got a show on the Obama and his Friends.

  166. Wow! I can tell I’m tired just from looking at that mess of typos I sent you.

    My intent isn’t to disagree with you, myiq2xu. I agree that one nine year old article should not have the kind of influence, that this one is given.

    However, right now, this search of “Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending” revealed 182,000 hits. You can see for yourself what many of these sites are.

    It’s a complicated subject. It’s too easy to get just the slightly wrong source. It’s too easy for all of us to have the wrong nuance without meaning to or without understanding. I don’t know what the argument was or whether, your relationship with Anglachel has value. I only think we are very tired. Come November 6th, I intend to sleep for a week, before I start the next battle.

  167. And now for next week’s post: why all men, including your great uncle who liberated Dachau, are born Nazis who would have liked the Third Reich to continue.

    But wait– there’s more. Stay tuned and learn why you men are slaveowners at heart who secretly long to vote for Jefferson Davis…

  168. Jangles,

    A progressive income tax policy does not do anything like what Marx wanted. It simply makes it possible for society to repair the roads and bridges and for us to have police and fire departments, etc. At the moment cities, towns and states are having a very tough time doing those things, because the wealthiest people in our society pay a far smaller percentage of their income than working and middle class Americans. We are nearly at the point right now that we were with the robber barrons. Do you really want to go back to the America of the 1890s? I certainly don’t.

    In case some commenters are not aware of this, The Confluence is a Democratic blog. We aren’t Republicans. Even most Republicans support the concept of progressive taxation. If you want regressive taxes, I guess we could switch to raising public money from sales taxes and gas taxes, but we wouldn’t get enough that way to have many public services. Our bridges are already falling down.

  169. roofingbird:

    There are two issues in my post, Anglachel’s slam at us earlier this month and her post today.

    You have only addressed the latter issue, which is okay. Anglachel alleged that there is a pattern emerging in newspapers and blogs that blames the mortgage crisis on minority borrowers.

    I did not say whether that is true or untrue. I said that Anglachel did not provide any evidence that supports the allegation.

    The reason the two issues are connected is that Anglachel accused us of making the same argument, but we never did.

  170. Hmmmm. Let’s see. When this is over, I’ve got to get back to my favorite table in faculty dining with some dignity in tact. What’ll it be? DKos vs. TMarsh model?

  171. Bostonboomer,

    My apologies. I stepped out as I am hard at work to keep people from voting for Obama.i am working the phones on blogs and the whole bit. I sat in conference call with McCain today.

    You said:

    “All you have to do is read Obama’s health care plan to know that he isn’t anything resembling a socialist.”

    I don’t read anything of Obama’s nor do I want any part of it.
    Ilive in Chicago and anything he says should be taken as a grain of salt. We are in Chicago waiting for the Man Child Obama to return home and finish the job he never started.

  172. I actually disagree with your analysis that if McCain/Palin win, Sarah Palin will, in 2012, have eclipsed Hillary Clinton in popularity.

  173. I tried to leave this comment over on Anglachel’s blog so that I wouldn’t clutter up this board, but I don’t have an account and don’t feel like setting one up.

    At this point I’m getting angry. So I’ll sign off for the night.


    To Anglachel:

    I confess that I’ve never been a fan. And the only reason I’m posting this here and not on your blog is because I don’t have an account and don’t want to set one up since I have no desire to be a regular visitor.

    Rape isn’t just a gender crime. Men and boys are victims too. Male rape, because of the stigma, is even more under reported than female rape. You really should investigate the reality of sexual violence outside your tunnel vision. The National Center for Victims of Crime might be a good place for you to start.

  174. I think Obama professed socialist ideas when it was in his benefit to do so.

    But he is not a socialist, nor does he profess socialist ideas any longer.

    He is now allied with the corporate elite and he now represents their interests.

  175. Afrocity,

    No apologies needed. I totally agree with you about Obama’s character and readiness for office, believe me. I just think the danger of electing him is that he will continue Bush’s policies.

    Did you learn anything interesting from the conference call? Personally, I still strongly believe that Obama will lose the election.

  176. Is anyone else going to post anything tonight?

  177. This is a corker! You have to watch this interview with Biden:

    Ok, this Florida anchorwoman and her interview with Biden cracked me up! Biden is stunned beyond belief but she is not phased one iota. Not only that, she goes BACK and brings up the socialist/marxist stuff more than once. The marixst stuff is classic, by the way. Now, I really don’t think obama is a socialist or a marxist or ANY “ist” as a matter of fact. I think he will say or do anything to win this election (saying and doing what his crack team of thousands tell him to say and do) and has absolutely NO intention of doing any of the stuff he says he will when he gets in. He will have free reign with pelosi and reid and the other goonies in the congress. He will be spending the next 4 years plugging the dike as leak after leak erupt.

  178. Yes, McCain is going to talk about the trifecta with the DEMS controlling the house, senate and presidency. We got our marching orders.

  179. Afrocity gives me hope for this country.

    If, God forbid, the unthinkable happens on Nov. 4, I won’t refer to the incoming rulers as an administration but as “the Regime”.

  180. gxm,

    Not only do men and boys get raped, men are also victims of domestic abuse. I have a colleague who researches domestic violence and she gets a lot of sh** about her research, believe me. The big difference, though, is that men are generally bigger and stronger than women, so women tend to sustain more serious injuries. But in recent years more women are committing violent crimes than in the past. As women get more empowered, the ratio between males and females will continue to change.

  181. Myiq2xzu,

    I can try to post something. Or do you have something all ready?

  182. I agree, myiq. In fact, although McCain’s health plan is sorely lacking, it may give more money back to the people than blabla’s and therefore be more constructive in reaching universal coverage. Once in office, I would not doubt that McCain would be even more generous, as I feel he is a more magnanimous soul that Sir Barks-a-lot.

    In addition, there were interesting posts on the blackagendareport back in March delineating some of barky’s wall street connections, so I agree, a populist he ain’t.

  183. thanks for this. I do think if McCain/Palin get in it will be Palin running in 2012, simply because McCain is, frankly, already looking physically too old for the job. He looks old and tired. 4 years as President will age him more than 4. So he will be a 76 year old feeling more like an 80 year old. You are right about Hillary’s experience, but as we are seeing today, political races are largely not about extensive experience – just enough experience. Otherwise Biden would be a shoo-in for the Presidency, and he wasn’t. But, suppose you are right. What, then, is the road ahead for us? What do we need to do come November 6?

  184. SOD,

    LOL! That interview was nothing compared to what CNN did to Sarah Palin.

  185. Obama needs to grow a pair

  186. afrocity,

    I think it’s too late. He either lost them or never had them.

  187. I’ll do an open thread

  188. That interview of Biden in FL was great– it may even restore my will to live for the next four years.

  189. Barbara West doesn’t miss a beat and never does her delivery change. It’s soooooo funny! Biden thinks he’s on candid camera or something!

  190. Thanks, myiq2xu. I think I have the flu. I’m not feeling all that energetic, even though I’ve been blathering on in the comments tonight.

  191. New thread up

  192. myiq2xu: I wasn’t saying that *you* went off the rails. It’s been clear to me for a long time that you were probably born that way. 😉
    I’m saying that Anglachel went off the rails. That’s what troubled me. I think this year has been very stressful for her. Her house was broken into and some valuable property was stolen. And that happened right around the same time that her mother was hospitalized for a serious illness. I don’t know the nature of the illness but from what I gather, the family had to make some difficult decisions. During that period, we exchanged friendly emails and I really missed her posts while she took some time off.
    Then, about a month ago, I asked her if she would be interested in getting involved in a real reform movement. I invited her to a conference call. I tried to reel her in, And what happened? A few days later, she writes that weird post.
    All I’m saying is that this election season has been very hard on all of us and the trouble that we are having with our party has made us question a lot about our lives and identities. Who are we loyal to, what do we believe, how much peer pressure can we resist? I think it was more difficult for Anglachel for personal reasons.
    Just as I’m not susceptible to peer pressure, I am also not really into kicking people when they’re down (public figures excepted and they have to be really bad people). If you moved as many times as I have as a kid, you would know what it’s like to be the target of negative attention. It makes you want to not do it to others.
    You can’t always love your enemies but just like Hillary, we can sometimes get them to respect us. You don’t get respect by returning fire.

  193. Biden was just surprised that the reporter didn’t pitch softball questions that allowed him to rattle off inane talking points (which he did anyway and which were full of deceptions).

    As for BO being a socialist; he’s not in my view — he’s a f@scist, and f@scists and big corporate business interests go hand in glove. His whole campaign is fascistic in its methods and strategies — complete with symbols (the big weird “O”) youth movements, intimidation of dissident voices within the party, glorification of the leader, scapegoating (those r@cists are trying to stop this movement), and appeal to some quasi-religious mysticism.

    I don’t believe for a moment that BO is anything other than a corrupt demagogue who uses flowery speech to persuade people that electing him is the solution to all the nation’s ills. As a conservative Christian, I am especially appalled at the startling wholesale kool-aide drinking in large parts of the Christian community about just how dangerous this man is just because he manages to throw them some pandering bones.

    And did I mention that Joe Biden is an idiot?

  194. RD,

    You make a lot of sense. I had thought about all the stress that Anglachel is going through. As for the self-questioning, I know I’m doing it. I’m reevaluating all my political views and realizing how many of them have been knee-jerk in the past. If nothing else, this election has caused me to rethink a lot of my judgements.

  195. As a lifelong democrat, I have come to the conclusion that both parties are rotten, to the core. I have already cast my vote.


  196. This BS about men secretly wanting rape to continue is ridiculous. I have a wonderful husband and two wonderful sons and they, as most men I have met, are disgusted by men who abuse women in any form, and would be the first to volunteer to castrate a rapist. Generalizations in any form is dangerous, and unfair. It is blatantly wrong to indict any specific group, men, women, AA, Latinos, whatever, by the actions of a few. I cannot believe some of the sheer horse shit that has come out this election season. It would seem someone somewhere has declared war on plain old common sense and decency.

  197. If i have learned one thing during this election, is that party affilations dont matter. Democrats use to stand for let every vote count now they discount votes and stand frozen in the face of voter fraud. The republicanS use to be capitalist through and through but now they are allowing a socialist to take the whitehouse and quivering over should they or shouldnt they use rev wright..please!
    If the truth is being posted i dont care if a rep or a dem is reporting and you shouldnt either. Anybody who starts an argument with he/she is a rep or he/she is a dem has learned nothing from this election cycle.

  198. nv swing voter, on October 25th, 2008 at 9:36 pm Said:

    Wow, this whole rape thing is disturbing. I was raped when I was 9 and my own grandmother paid the young man to leave and never come back because she didn’t want it to go through the courts.

    Big cyber hug to you and I wanted to acknowledge that it is from a point of strength that you shared such a private painful event. A friend of mine was molested and I went as her buddy (the weekend of coming out…telling those close to you about the abuse) and I was amazed at the number of women and some men too that were abused as children.

    The buddy was to stay in case the person had a hard time while in the group therapy sessions that went on for two days. Us buddies stayed down stairs reading and listening to speakers about how to be a good support system in the following weeks. Up until that weekend I didn’t fully understand the level of abuse children are subjected to.

    I am glad you have good friends to give you support.

  199. Anne, on October 25th, 2008 at 7:29 pm Said:

    Long-time lurker – first time poster here: Hi!
    Welcome Anne!

  200. When Arch. purchases petrol is she supporting misogyny? When she votes for a pol who happens to be a man is she placing power in the hands of a rapist? When she makes purchases is she economically supporting rapists? By what means does Arch. determine who is a rapist and who is not, who is “speaking out” and who is complicit? Is Arch. complicit? So many questions…

  201. Bwahahahah!

  202. hey guys ,just to cheer you up let feedom ring 527 has aired over 10 new anti obama ads including one about wright and ayers all are very good and going out to the battlegrounds.if you want to check the out rather than screwing around with utube you can download high resolution stuff straight from their site neverfindout.org hope thease help.

  203. urge — stay positive.

  204. LOL, I call it funny as hell! Too bad it wasn’t mr. obama in the hot seat, he wouldn’t have been able to keep that “legendary” mellowness in check with those questions. I have watched that interview about 4 times now, it absolutely cracks me up!

  205. This site has given me real hope since I first came here. Checking out now. Look forward to 7 new posts by RD, 3 by myiq, 4 by boston boomer and 2 new plats by madamab before 8 am tomorrow, not to mention dakinicat’s extensive new economic analysis.

    Did we locate angie?

  206. myiq2xu: Does your “name” mean that you think that your IQ is 2x higher than anybody else’s? Just curious.

  207. RD:

    I understand what you’re saying and I respectfully disagree.

    Anglachel’s personal problems do not give her a license to slander us. I didn’t twist her words or attempt to read her mind, nor did I make unfounded allegations.

    But this is your blog, and I defer to your wishes.

  208. myiq2xu: The political blogosphere is like the Wild Wild West. There *aren’t* any rules that say what is permissible and what isn’t. It is up to us to set the terms of the debate. So, the question is, how much slouching towards the Kossack model Gomorrah do you want to do? Do we want to keep picking at that wound because she slandered us?
    Put it this way, can Anglachel do any more harm than what she is doing to herself right now?
    I understand where *you’re* coming from. She made a really ridiculous assertion about the nature of all men. All I am asking is that we keep the level of the argument high enough that it doesn’t become personal. Some commenters have made it personal and that troubles me. I don’t want to get into the “our lunchtable is cooler than your’s” mode.
    BTW, it’s not just my blog. We have other’s to think about as well. If we want to maintain our credibility, we have to try harder than the other blogs.

  209. I do believe it was the obama campaign…obama himself…that started the entire racist rant. That was definitely part of the democratic plan to win…get the african americans angry..tell the remainder of your people to get in the faces of people opposing obama. After all…that’s what obama told his cousin odinga in africa to run his campaign that way. After odinga lost the election..the people were ordered to riot…thousands were killed…hundreds of thousands left homeless. Nice…HUH? McCain wouldn’t expect anything like that. One is a gentleman and the other a thug…can you tell the difference?

  210. Sorry, it took me a bit to respond here, my daughter’s in town this weekend for Voodoo Fest with a few friends so I’m doing driving and feeding duties for college students at the moment.

    I’ve never ‘attacked’ affordable housing or elimiating redlining or other discriminatory practices. The article i cited actually pointed out that just as many standard loans failed as subprime loans. So all the hooplah about it just being the subprime markets doesn’t fit the pattern of the data. What does fit the pattern of the data is loosening of credit standards in all types of loans and the fueling of secondary market that was willing to buy up these loans. If you look at many of the hearings, you’ll see that the democrats were part of the issue here–especially in the 2000-2005 point in time.

    I have NEVER gone back to the Carter years and blamed what went on back then. I actually don’t blame some of the de-regulation that occured in the 1980s and 1990s. We would have had many more melt downs like the thrift issue if we hadn’t allowed the FIs to engage in different lines of business.

    To me the basic issues were removing leverage caps for investment banks (done by the SEC), the horrible mismanagement of Freddie and Fannie and the mortgage factory they became by allowing and encouraging and implying coverage for bad mortgage lending practices, and the development of new derivatives markets that went totally unregulated.

    The Glass Stegall repeal had nothing to do with any of these nor did any of the other deregulation that happened during the Clinton years. It was the LACK of initial regulation of the derivative markets for items like swaps.

    Finally, implying that I’m some how race baiting because I don’t think folks that don’t meet borrowing bare minimum borrowing standards is silly. While much of the Fannie and Freddie hooplah was over increasing home ownership among the poor, and was a priority pushed by the Black Caucus, this doesn’t necessarly lead to the conclusion that the roots of this financial mess is minority borrowers. To suggest this is way off base. That’s a huge leap based on some kind of internal assumptions.

    Again, the article that I cited that sent every one off the top from the professor at UT Dallas specifically stated that subprime mortgages as well as standard mortgages were failing at basically the same rates. This implies just the opposite.

    Frankly, I’ve two years since Huricane Katrina looking at predatory lending practices as well as some of the issues underlying the meltdown. Most of us that studying financial institutions have seen this coming. I was even saying interest rates were held too low for too long for some time. I felt that part of the reason that Greenspan did that was to help Bush get re-elected back in 2004. Believe me, that borderlines on a conspiracy theory in my circles.

    I believe that specific bonds should be issued from HUD to support affordable housing efforts. That these bonds should come from an institute that doesn’t have to worry about providing dividends and returns to shareholders and doesnt’ have an underlying fiduciary responsiblity to depositors or have some obligation to return money borrowed to bond holders. That way you don’t bring private instutitions into a policy experiment.
    I do believe regulators should audit lending files for signs of redlining and discrimatory lending practices and heavy fines should be levied on guilty parties.

    I can’t help it if some of this information is being spun by the right and the Republicans. It something I had a problem with way back when it occured and have been saying it’s going to create problems ever since then. I also roundly criticized Greenspan for keeping interest rates low and the SEC for lifting leverage restrictions. I’ve been on the front line trying to get some one to regulate the credit swap market. I have even lobbied my senator for further regulations on pay day loans and such. Does this make me guilty of left wing tomes? I’m sure not getting credit for that.

    As for this tit for tat back and forth blog sparring, I have to say it’s not productive. Every one is allowed their opinion and to criticize some one else’s thesis as well as evidence. It just doesn’t have to be so mean spirited, imo.

    I think that were all basically working towards a better, more equitable system here in the progressive blog sphere. We should welcome ideas and they should be freely discussed. I don’t think we should necessarily start labelling things wrong, just because the other side seeks to use a mistake we made to their advantage. That’s just part of the chess game called politics.

  211. So many things to say……

    No, Anglachel, we are NOT all suprime now.

    No, Anglachel, we in Texas should not bail out California because they can’t manage their own budgets.

    No, Anglachel, all men are not rapists, although I understand this issue is personal for you. (Some therapy might help).

    No, Anglachel, we’re not racists when we believe that banks should be able to DENY mortgage loans to people who don’t qualify by old-fashioned standards, and NO , Anglachel, I’m not the least bit intimidated by your implication that my traditional financial values —and being deeply angered at what the non-racist subprime issues have done to my country’s reputation internationally for honesty and decency.

    And no, Anglachel, it’s not about minorities.

    And no , Anglachel, it wasn’t just Republican hedge fund operators who were greedy. Whole hell of a lotta Democratic hedge fund operators got your idealistic butt in this fix, too (Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, Arthur Levitt—-ALL of them fought off derivative regulations).

    And no, Anglachel, Americans aren’t buying the “Republicans’ ideology is evil” meme , because we’re well-educated and informed, and we know quite clearly that it’s not about Dems or Repubs, but about haves and have nots.

    And there were PLENTY of Democratic haves that had their greedy little hands in the same “evil pie.”

    We don’t care about Black or White or Polka-dotted, Anglachel, even if it makes it easier for you to deal with differences by claiming, falsely, that it is so.

    There’s a REASON, Anglachel, that the state of Texas is not plagued by the subprime crash like California or Florida are.

    There’s a REASON, Anglachel, why Fannie & Freddie were EXEMPT from the Sarbanes/Oxley bill after the Enron fiasco with derivaties and expenses fraudulently being moved off the books to make “profits” look better so the executives could get bigger bonuses. $90 million, Franklin Raines, is not much different than what Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling did, and criminal charges were filed and prison sentences served.

    I’m offended, Anglachel, that you think Franklin Raines should get different rules than Jeff Skilling did, because, you see, he’s a MINORITY, and applying accountability to him the same as Jeff Skilling , would , of course, be RACIST.

    Not impressed, not intimidated, Anglachel.

    Pick a rule, dear, and apply it without regard to the color of the skin of the fraudulent criminal.

    We are not ALL subprime, now, dear.

    Ok. I’m done.

    But the next American who calls me a racist or “against minorities” because I think the rules should be applied consistently, I’m gonna slap the crap out of em.

    And I think there are a whole hellluva lotta Americans who feel the same way I do.

    Bite me, Anglachel.

  212. […] Strawmen and Smears A few weeks back a blogger we admire named Anglachel surprised a few of us slamming The Confluence in this post: Back […] […]

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