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With “Friends” Like These . . .

So I’m over at TGW and I see a post on how this election may increase the percentage of women in Congress from 16% to 19% and I decide to post this comment:

Gravatar I was still a kid when “Women’s Lib” supposedly happened. That was damn near four decades ago.

By this point women should occupy something like 45%-55% of elected offices.

I didn’t figure that was controversial, but this morning I see this response from someone named “Zee”:

myiq! A foray here, how exciting. However…after a quick look at your webpage, you may be related to Mormons who are “good people” but the cult definitely deserves to crash and burn. I’m sorry, yeah, I hate all religions as they are mostly paternalistic crap, but some, such as Islam where they practice gender apartheid to the point where male firefighters let schoolgirls burn to death rather than TOUCH them and the MORMONS, where the men are “gods” of their own planets in their ludicrous afterlife and women just part of a harem to pump out ghost babies to populate said planets, deserve all the ridicule they get and then some.

“Tolerance” is bullshit in these cases.

Zee was referring to this post of mine, where I called out a commenter at Corrente for religious bigotry against Mormons.  here was my response to Zee:

After we round up the Moslems and Mormons, do we gas them with Zyklon-B and burn the bodies?

Yeah, I Godwined, but I thought it was appropriate.  I don’t know who “Zee” is, and frankly I don’t want to know, but I’m assuming that TGW doesn’t endorse or share Zee’s views.  I’m not endorsing Mormonism, Islam or any other religion.  I practice heathenistic hedonism, but that’s because it scares away the Jehovah’s Witnesses and leaves my Sundays free for watching football.

Freedom of religion (which includes freedom from religion) isn’t just a liberal value, it’s a constitutional right.  Us lefties have demonized Christian conservatives for being intolerant of other religions, and we have seen charges of racism made whenever someone suggests that Obama is a Moslem or even when they use his arabic middle name.

But for the second time in two days I see someone spouting religious bigotry on a supposedly progressive blog.  The first one was more disturbing because despite numerous responses not one person called it for what it is.  It’s bigotry:

A bigot is a person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own, and bigotry is the corresponding state of mind. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable.

Bigotry, whether in the form of racism, sexism, homophobia, nationalism, religious intolerance or even partisanship is WRONG.  Progressives used to have principles.

Liberals still do.

393 Responses

  1. myiq2xu: “Progressives used to have principles.

    Liberals still do.”

    I’m not too sure about the first half of that quote. In my case, I used to think progressives had principles, but I am slowly realizing that I may have been mistaken.

  2. (reposting my last comment from the other thread)
    OT This morning Fox was talking about that list/petition of Ayers educator supporters who are mostly professors.
    That made me think: before I could volunteer at my kids school to help at a homeroom party or chaperone a field trip, I had to submit (and pay) for a state background check and and FBI fingerprint check.
    Would Ayers pass an FBI background check to volunteer at a kids school? I wonder about that.

  3. janicen:

    Either way, they ain’t got ’em now

  4. R-E-S-P-E-C-T

    It really isn’t that difficult of a concept and it is a two way street.

  5. 🙂 Hear, hear, myiq.

  6. Principles?

    Aren’t those the things you sell out to WIN elections? (Just kidding)

  7. So…we need a fingerprint check before volunteering at school, but no voter ID to cast a vote?

  8. There are a lot of things I don’t agree with.

    But there is a big difference between “What you think is wrong” and “You are wrong for thinking that.”

    The first sentence says “That’s a bad idea”

    The second says “You are a bad person.”

  9. Myiq – great post.

    Something along the same lines from January of this year…

  10. Since we are talking about ideals, values, morals, and judgment calls, shouldn’t both statement be prefaced with, “In my opinion” or “I think that you are wrong for thinking that.”

  11. Yes, liberals still have principles. I agree wholeheartedly with you about religion. I do not think it is A-OK to make fun of people’s religious beliefs or to say toleration is fine for some religions but not the one’s I find repulsive.

  12. I didn’t have to do fingerprint check so it probably is regional.

  13. This all goes back to the “unity” campaign. If this divisiveness is the change they are looking for, I am glad I got out quickly.

  14. Gail:

    In this day and age, everyone should have some form of government issued ID, and there should be some way to verify that each person who votes is eligible and only votes once in each election.

    Instead of opposing voter ID laws we should make sure they are written and implemented so that they don’t exclude any eligible people from voting.

    We shoud also have national standards for voting machines that reasonably guarantee they are accurate and tamper-proof.

  15. myiq: I’m sure the national standards for voting machines will come after they get some national standards for math.

  16. Kim:

    My opinion is always right

    /snark

  17. I think the religion without its share of way out stuff ought to cast the first stone……

    Let’s see burning bushes that talk………..hmmmmmm yeah that is normal. My mom is so gonna tell me I’m gonna burn in Hades now. I got quite the tongue lashing for saying that if you read the Old and then the New Testament, that it appeared sometime between the two that God was placed on Prozac.

    I believe in God……man, however, is the one who has done all the translating thus far. Anyone ever played telephone?

  18. Like the Liberal principle line– Cannonfire has quite a bit to say on the subject of lost Progressive ideals.

  19. I don’t know about other states, but here in SC, you must have valid photo ID, as well as an electric bill, phone bill, property tax or lease agreement to verify you are who you are and that you live where you say you live.

  20. Yes, myiq, your opinion is always right, as long as you agree with me.

  21. Umm, Kim?

    I didn’t see a snark tag there

  22. Here you have to have some form of ID if asked. You can fill out an affidavit though.

  23. I’m going to have to disagree with you on this one, myiq. I’m religious and I respect anyone’s Constitutional right to worship as they please. That does not inhibit me from criticizing religions that perpetuate paternalism and the LDS are in that group. They have other wonderful values including a bent toward volunteerism that’s amazing but it’s a paternalistic religion that places women in an unequal role.

  24. oh, uh, uh, yeah, my iq, um you betcha, that was umm snark.

  25. 😉

  26. In NYC, you have to sign, and your signature has to match the signature they have on record for your voter registration.

    Seems to work well. Plus, we still use the old-fashioned machines that have a paper trail.

  27. I hit the same ole blogs regularly but was there someone posting here with a name Zee? It seems familiar.

  28. Progressives used to have principles.

    Liberals still do.

    Amen myiq — regardless of whether or not the neo-progs ever had principles to begin with (I’m kind of with janicen on this one — in retrospect, I think they never did) they don’t have them now. I, a true liberal and zealous advocate for the separation of church & state, who happens to be a Christian, have been met face to face with religious bigotry. I’m not a liberal if I believe in God I’ve basically been told several times on “progressive” blogs (cough TL cough). It seems to me the neo-progs threw out the “of” part in the religious issue when they threw out the “keeping the baby being a valid choice” in the choice issue. (Meanwhile, however, EVs are where it is at this year for the neo-progs). But, it is hard to maintain a consistent political philosophy when you are basically nothing more then a prostitute.

  29. In NC all you have to do is give them your name and address and if it matches, you get to vote. That’s why it is som important that everyone here go vote. if you don’t they can steal it.

  30. Jean

    Perpetuate paternalism?

    I sure hope you fell the same about just about every other religion. Catholicism says women don’t have rights over their own bodies. Muslims have women running around in burkas. From where i am sitting there aren’t a whole lot of religions that would qualify as considering women “equals”

  31. I honestly don’t give a big rat’s @ss what anyone choses as their religion. You want to play with snakes, your choice, believe that there is a big old dude up in the sky, totally your business. Just don’t get pissed at me, when I tell you, if I can’t see, smell it, touch it or hear it, I ain’t buying it.

  32. CWaltz:

    If the Judeo-Christian religions were just emerging now they would be considered lunatic cults.

    Creation – the Great Flood – the plagues of Egypt, Jonah and the Whale – the Resurrection

  33. Sorry guys, but I am one of those religious bigots. I keep it to myself most of the time, but sometimes it escapes.

  34. I favor believing in a Giant Green Lizard.

    Makes as much sense as anything else.

  35. How come newspaper articles when discussing candidate positions say the candidates are nearly tied, while articles about polls keep saying Obama has a double-digit lead? I saw an Obot comment on Facebook that says, OMG, the Republicans are going to steal the election, b/c a real McCain win is impossible! Geez.

  36. CWaltz,

    In fact, I do feel the same way about jmany other religions. I’m not picking on Mormons. I left a church that refused to allow women to participate fully in the spiritual and administrative life of the church and found one that did. That’s pretty much my bottom-line.

  37. Kim,

    I promise I won’t try to convert you. I believe that people have the right to choose or not choose to have relationships with God or otherwise.

  38. CWaltz, on October 23rd, 2008 at 1:29 pm Said:

    Jean

    Perpetuate paternalism?

    I sure hope you fell the same about just about every other religion.

    Sing it CWaltz — except for Wiccan can anyonne name me ONE religion that doesn’t perpetuate paternalism. The idea that LDS is “special” & therefore fair game based on that is nothing more then a pretext. And a pretty laughable one at that.

  39. OMG, HAVE YOU GUYS SEEN THIS!!!! THEY LIED!!

    http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/10/22/….does/#more-5610

  40. OMG, HAVE YOU SEEN THIS !!!

    http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/10/22/….does/#more-5610

  41. Jean,

    Since men have ruled the roost for most of history I think most religion seems geared towards a paternal viewpoint(since its dogma has been written by men).

  42. NH – TalkLeft had those numbers way back when Jeralyn still supported Hillary Clinton.

    Yes, they lied. Yes, they cheated. How else could Obama beat Hillary? Like George Bush, he has never won an election legitimately.

  43. angienc, American Zen Buddhism

  44. Kim — I won’t try to convert you either — but I will pray for you to someday see the light & join the one, true, holy catholic and apostolic Church.
    I keed! I keed!:-)

    In all seriousness though, sometimes I think that if these Obots actually did have a real religion they wouldn’t have latched on to the O worship.

  45. NH — the page you are linking to is gone. What is it about

  46. I am universally disdainful of organized religion, but not of those who practice it.

    Religion is a personal choice, and it should never be used to divide people from each other.

    Remember in Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy, when the universal fix for all problems was discovered to be “We apologize for the inconvenience?” I think that at this point in our history, those words should be changed to “Let’s agree to disagree.”

  47. Mawm — sorry — I will not count American Zen Buddhism — Buddhism is paternalistic — putting a modern “American” twist on it doesn’t make it not Buddhism — the Catholic church has modernized too, doesn’t mean the paternalistic roots have disappeared.

  48. Very conservative Christian here.

    Touchy subject. Personally, I’m not a fan of debating or discussing religion over the Internet. Something like that needs more than just words for anyone to believe what I say about my faith in God. It requires viewing of actions, otherwise it’s just words and I think we can all agree on how we feel about just words, just speeches 😉

  49. angiec,

    I looked at Baha’i but concluded that I preferred a Christian church and chose Methhodism. There are more women in ministry in that group than in any other Christian church in the US.
    I’m not trying to convert anyone. I’m just saying that I’m a raging feminist and I found a church where I’m at ease. I can preach and I can decide how the money is spent. Those are responsibilies that I would not be allowed to hold in other religions.

  50. NH – the post is interesting but the thread has turned into a bash Hillary jerk-off.

  51. Tut-tut, progressives can be jerks. Eric Alterman did a nice job finding authoritarianism in right-wingers. But Albert Mehrabian (Google is your friend) did a nice job finding it on the left.

    It just amazes me that people don’t understand intuitively that true believers of any stripe are, fundamentally, authoritarians. To me, it’s just a matter of common sense.

  52. madamab, I must have left TL by then, I hadn’t seen these numbers before today and it made me sick.

    angienc, a well respected number cruncher went back to the primary election and re-ran the vote numbers and showed that the Hillary was only down by 4, I repeat 4, delegates and won the popular vote by about 170,000 I believe. This primary was a straight out cheat.

  53. In all seriousness though, sometimes I think that if these Obots actually did have a real religion they wouldn’t have latched on to the O worship.

    ****

    I’ve thought that myself.

  54. Dee, on October 23rd, 2008 at 1:47 pm

    hmm “D”ee, “Z”ee? is someone doing a poor job of staling myiq? 😀

    j/k

  55. NH….that link goes to a 404 page. which article are you talking about?

    Mountain Sage

  56. religion, government, commerce…what social structure on our planet hasn’t been designed in a patriarchal/paternalistic structure? Religion is no different. Our constitution provides for freedom of religion. but like myiq said, that also means freedom from religion. I don’t care if you worship satan or speak in tongues to jesus. just keep it to yourself. Actually I don’t even mind if you invite me to join in, but if I say no, that should be the end of it.

  57. IIRC, Zee has posted here before. I recall the nic.

    I’m an atheist so it’s all Scientology to me; I try my best to be respectful though. (madamab says it better than me, of course.) As long as no one gets hurts, have at it.

    But when it comes to practices that violate law, such as marrying a 14-year old off to her cousin, then I think it’s necessary to draw the line. Gas chamber? No. Of course not. Bring them up on rape charges? Absolutely. There’s a point at which someone’s mythical belief crosses the line of acceptable behavior and then they need to be dealt with just as any other criminal.

  58. Sal

    I mean no disrespect. I grew up Catholic and when times were tough I had a Christian church to be grateful to.

    I think religion is a very personal choice and that people shouldn’t be demeaned because of their personal choices(whether it be atheism, mormonism, Christianity, or Catholicism).

  59. angienc, there are many women abbots in the US, and the temples I’ve been to are very evenly split among men and women for both lay practitioners and monks.

  60. Speaking of friends like these.

    The Obamamania sexism once again rears its ugly head.

    WARNING: Contains the b**** word.

    I know it brings up some bad memories.

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/10/after-dedicatin.html

  61. I think he/she/it (Zee) is related to Zuyder…

  62. gxm

    Considering the Catholic church’s past I think we can safely say Mormons aren’t the only ones who have crossed lines.

  63. oh it wasn’t directed at you CWalt. 😀 I’m not even sure what you said.

    I just meant it as a general statement. I’m a actions kind of guy and I like to think that most people are like that too. `

  64. Jean, but O is their religion. HE is the one they’ve been waiting for.

  65. Jay-Z is a typical Obot pig.

  66. The Real Kim: Just don’t get pissed at me, when I tell you, if I can’t see, smell it, touch it or hear it, I ain’t buying it.

    Yep – that’s why I’m pagan. 🙂

  67. Oops, that was in response to Sal’s link about Jay-Z dedicating his song 99 Problems to McCain and “his homegirl.”

  68. CWaltz, I don’t give any of them a pass. I just mentioned Mormons because they were in the original post. But yes, sodomizing young boys certainly makes one a criminal… and a sick one at that. JMHO, of course.

  69. Possible Big Big Obama Donation fraud story developing…

    http://ace.mu.nu/archives/276395.php

    I urge one of our regular bloggers to take a look at this and test his donation site for yourself.

  70. Good to see myiq instigating more fights than me.

  71. let me guess… that’s not the jay-z he once knew?

    nice… call Sarah Palin a bitch…. stay classy

  72. angienc – I find that very religious people can be quite susceptible to hero worship.

    For example, Catholics believe the pope is infallible. Just sayin’.

    😉

  73. I don’t ‘get’ the hating on anyone who has different beliefs. Whole groups of people have been smeared this campaign based on religion or sexual orientation or for being the a member of a un-sexy minority group or just being female.

    I guess hate is the new religion of choice these days.

  74. NH — I saw that story earlier. Un-effing-believable. But we always knew it was a straight out cheat.

    BTW — so, I went over to salon (used to be a premium member — what an a–hole I was) anyway, Is still like the “I Like to Watch” column so I go every once in a while to read it (ignoring the other stories). Today, though, they caught my eye:
    1. “Polls Predict Obama Landslide”
    2. “Obama’s half-sister on her ‘awesome’ big brother” and
    3. “Could Romney have saved McCain’s bacon?”

    Obviously, as we predicted earlier — “the race is over, no need to vote” meme has started. If there is any justice in this world, BO will lose just to teach these morons a lesson in humility.

  75. Zee said that she hates religion.

    also that mormonism is a “cult” and deserves to “crash and burn”

    also that islam’s official gender apartheid is evil and that all religions, but especially islam,

    “deserve all the ridicule they get and then some”

    absolutely spot on in my opinion.

    NO WAY do I respect a religion that condones the murder of women and girls.

    Not tolerant of it. Not respectful of it.

    I stick my tongue out at Islam.

    How on earth do zee’s comments amount to bigotry?

  76. Hey when there is another woman Pope I will believe paternalism is dead in catholism…

    home for lunch

  77. Buddhism is one o f the most misunderstood Religions because it is non-theistic. It does not make an assertion about the existence of God either positively or negatively. It is not a question that is considered important in its practice. Therefore, a lot of people who have backgrounds in mono or polytheistic religions make the mistake of assuming that Buddha is God in Buddhism, or that Buddhists worship Buddha.
    Another difference in the other major Religions is that both Christianity and Islam both require their practitioners to take on a new belief system. Whereas Buddhism requires the dismantling of it.

  78. madamb, atheists are prone to hero worship too. Some of my pro-Obama friends are atheists and have a devotion to Obama that rivals and trumps that of many of my religious friends.

    Also, not all catholics believe the pope is infallible. And many catholics do not share opposition to birth control pills or condoms either.

  79. Personally I don’t care what religion you practice as long as it is not against the law and you are not forcing it onto me in my breakfast cereal. Other than that, have at it. The issue only becomes an albatross when it gets mixed in with politics. There is where I definitely draw the line.

    Freedom of religion also carries the caveat of freedom from religion. Fanatical adherents have created more problems and difficulties down through the ages and we have yet to learn.

  80. jjmtacoma, You do realize that there are religions that PREACH that homosexuality is a sin and homosexuals are EVIL? Have you seen how gays are EXECUTED in some Muslim countries simply for BEING GAY?

    I’m tolerant of any religion that doesn’t HURT anyone else. That’s all I ask. A large number of religious people are of like mind. They are peaceful, nonviolent people. The few bad apples should be recognized for what they are: Criminals.

  81. gxm

    My point is that Mormonism is far from the only religion that has crossed lines. What makes me the maddest is often the ones pointing out the splinter in its eye, have beams in their own. Yes, their are Mormons who have abused their positions. There are also Catholics and Christians, and a whole host of others who have done so as well. It has less to do with religion and more to do with the fact that they are fallible men and women.

  82. gxm17, — no one is talking about harboring criminals in the name of religion — human sacrifice isn’t allowed either and there are religions that call for that. Those Mormons to whom you refer are fringe groups and real LDS practitioners shouldn’t be lumped in with them. Unfortunately, from what I saw in the response to myiq’s post that person was doing exactly that re: Mormons & Muslims.

  83. I think he/she/it (Zee) is related to Zuyder…

    I bet this one went right over a few heads.

  84. Harry Reid said:

    “Nevada is going to prove to everybody that we’re not a red state,” Reid said. “We’re a state that has changed.”
    Alluding to the fact that Obama would be the first black president, Reid said today’s young voters are more colorblind than previous generations.

    . . . .

    “If you’re from 18 to 35, you have no prejudice. You don’t care about color of skin, religion or gender. It’s people who are a bit older who have some old beliefs they can’t shake off.”

    Unbelievable.

    http://www.lvrj.com/news/32802389.html

  85. gq – I am merely stating Catholic dogma. I know that a lot of Catholics don’t believe it, since I have a lot of Catholic friends.

    🙂

    My comment was in response to the idea that if Obots were really religious, they would not worship Obama so. I don’t think that’s the case. There are some people who are susceptible to hero worship, and some who aren’t. Whether or not they are religious is probably beside the point, since both religious and non-religious people have succumbed to group think about Obama being “The One.”

  86. Murphy is a case in point of a religious bigot, imo. I

  87. More examples of supporters “getting in the face of people”.

    Again like I said folks, stay home after the election if Obama loses.

    ====================================
    http://www.local6.com/politics/17784129/detail.html

    LONGWOOD, Fla. — The home of a Central Florida Republican headquarters manager was shot up and damaged over his support of Sen. John McCain, the man told police.

    Rog Coverely said several pellets pierced his Longwood home. Coverely showed several spiderwebbed-holes in the front windows of his home.

    The Republican manager said he is convinced he was targeted because of new McCain signs he added around his home.

    “All I can tell you is this, I have a very good relationship with my neighbors,” Coverely said. “I mow my lawn. The only thing that has changed is I have two McCain signs in my front yard.”

    Coverely said he has taken about 300 calls concerning stolen or vandalized McCain signs in the area.

  88. NV Swing Voter –

    Shorter Harry Reid:

    Don’t trust anyone over 35 because they’re bitter, bible-clinging gun-owning r*cists.

    Motherf*cker!!!!

  89. BTW — I’m catholic — I’m Greek Orthodox not a Roman Catholic (which, btw is known by us as “the first protestant church ha! ha! ha!) Anyway, we know the pope isn’t infaliable (that was the whole schism was all about) & we believe birth control is ok. Just so y’all know.

  90. Pat, that is one of the big things I have against Islam. Although I don’t know much about the details of its practice, I see that it is totally intertwined with government in both Africa, the Middle east, and Asia. Therefore, the women who must don the hijab or bhurka are many times required to wear it under law. Would they if they really had a choice? Some would, but I bet a lot would not. The reality, though, is that it is not a choice for many women in those regions, and it is that fact that colors a lot of my feelings toward the practice.

  91. Heh

    “Not all catholics are against birth control or condoms”

    Unfortunately, the ones that matter the most still are opposed to them though.

    It does make me giggle though. As long as all we have to do is say Hail Mary and Our Father to do pennance it’s all good.

  92. madamab: Believe me, as a lapsed Catholic I do not believe the pope is infallible. None of them have been. So much of the stuff they shoved down our throats like eating meat on Friday would send us to Hell was ridiculous. The Catholic Church is so far behind in the times that it defies logic.

    One thing I credit them with is their love of pageantry. This is why I usually attend Christmas Eve mass. The music alone is worth the sermon that is a sure guarantee to put you to sleep.

  93. Honestly, if I had to chose a religion, it would probably be Taoism. I, however, am a bit too outspoken for it, would have to change my assertiveness.

  94. CWaltz and Angie, I agree with you. I am just very steadfast that criminals should not be allowed to hide behind their faith. It’s a human thing, not a faith thing, but too often these people use faith to shield themselves from prosecution, just like others use money or politics. Hmmmm. Who does that remind me of…

  95. Angelina, there was that (I think) old Greek Orthodox church right on the edge of the CBD? You could see the dome from Loyola and by the train/bus station.

  96. PJ – The best pageantry I’ve ever experienced was in an Episcopalian church (I was a soprano soloist there for years). The Christmas service included lambs, donkeys and adorable children acting out the birth of Jesus. Wonderful!

  97. angienc: I think you misunderstood murphy’s meaning. She abhors the same crap we do but refuses to recognize it as bigotry since it is mostly unenlightenment that prevails in these practices that put women in subservient positions. And speaking on her behalf as a fellow Catholic, I think she would agree that this is also very much part of their doctrine as well.

    It is not “bigotry” but the absence of logic.

  98. madamab: Theater, purely theater pulling at our emotional strings.

  99. I love how myiq starts a ruckus and then conveniently disappears. 😀

  100. Frightening:

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=azupDa7hoMP4&refer=home

    People had better be paying attention to this election and know that BO can not lead!

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  101. gxm17 – Typical Aries!

    😉

  102. madamab: As I had once mentioned, I have several Jewish neighbors who are friends as well and I have attended functions at their synagogues. I clearly remember a service that had a cantor whose voice was so pure and beautiful that it brought tears to my eyes. Had not a clue as to what he was singing, but the effect was glorious. Again, theater, pure theater.

  103. my only opinion on religions is keep them away from me

    does that make me a religious bigot?

  104. myiq is probably “lunching” with Capt Spaulding and the image this conjures is something most of us would shrink from.

  105. dakinkat: No, a logician if there is such a word.

  106. dakinikat, yes, but you are in good company.

  107. Carol – Do you think Oba-Moi even knows Pakistan has nukes? He always seems to think he can invade that country willy-nilly without any repercussions. He’s crazy!!!

  108. Look at Scientology. It is now being recognized as an actual bona-fide religion. A religion started by a really bad sci-fi writer just a few decades ago. It’s an actual religion because it got enough members. I try not to pass judgment on it, but it’s hard not to laugh at Tom Cruise!

  109. Rush is on another Obama tangent again today. Much as I hate Rush I have to laugh when he goes after The One. Had him on in the car and he is sharp this afternoon. Loves nothing better than calling him The One.

    According to Rush, and take this for what it is worth, the polls are skewed and Obama is running scared. But he did call my Eddy Fat Eddy from PA. Not a good thing.

  110. Heard there will be a “surprise” next week – probably about O having actually been born overseas – not a natural born American – hmmm, oh, well we’ll see.

    Stopped in to drop something off for my cousin today and her cleaning lady was there – so I asked Mercedes (from Brazil – just became a citizen last year) if she was going to vote. “oh, yes – then she asked, “who you voting for? You not voting for HIM (Obama) are you?” Well, we got into a nice conversation about HIM and she told me she’s telling all of her foreign born friends not to vote because they are, in her words, “too stupid to learn that he will not be good for us and I don’t want to argue with them.” Smart lady that, Mercedes!

  111. DYB: can we talk about how all reigions are invented by people? Does it make any difference if it was invented in the iron age? the information age? the stone age?

    they are all man invented for one or two folks to control the rest of the herd

  112. daninkat: Totally agree.

    I’m a recovering Southern Baptist myself. As I turned out gay, there was no way I could stay a Baptist. I looked around, studied a lot, new age stuff in CA, read everything I could. Finally found a Unitarian fellowship, it was nice, actually more atheists than anything, but totally willing to discuss and be respectful. But most people there were recovering from their own religious upbringing as well, so we all had a lot in common. UU’s don’t tell people how to think or believe, you can think and believe anything you want, but for the most it’s a very liberal, accepting denomination. We don’t have a close UU here in TN, and I kinda miss it.

  113. DYB, that is it in a nut-shell.

    If I say that God speaks to me. I am a nut.

    If 30 people say God speaks to me. I am head of a Cult.

    If 30,000,000 people say God speaks to me. I am head of a major religion.

  114. dakinikat – Amen, sister!

    And none of them were woman-invented either.

    BUT…religion is a benign influence in a lot of peoples’ lives, so I am happy for those who believe.

  115. Hmmmmmm

    I wouldn’t go that far daninkat.

    I consider myself a mutt when it comes to religion. I’ve studied a few but don’t “folow” any particular one. If the point was to control me then whoever it was clearly has failed.

  116. There is something out there but I have no name for it. How else can we explain talent, beauty, intelligence? I have no idea but it does not rest in all the shall not’s.

  117. It isn’t a benign influence in all those Muslim countries. I really wouldn’t care what they believe if they didn’t always subjugate women.

    Those two beautiful girls were killed in Texas by their Turkish father because he was ashamed they were acting too “American”, they are calling it an “honor” killing. Where is the honor in murdering your two beautiful daughters in the name of some stupid religious teachings? So sad.

  118. I just have to put in my two cents here. The Papal Infallibility is a very narrow doctrine and in no way means that everything the Pope says is true, even if related to Church teachings. Scholars debate the minutia of this all the time and cheap throw away lines tend to misstate the doctrine. Second, Catholics are Christians. I know that my church offends many here and that is fine, but the charity and humanitarian work it does is often ignored and the world would be a far worse place if Catholics did not do this work. Peace be with you all. I think we have an election coming up.

  119. Religion is a dichotomy. On the one hand it provides comfort and solace to many while on the other hand promotes suffering and intolerance as well. Go figure.

  120. I can’t explain my faith anymore than I can explain any other part of what makes me uniquely me. That said, I am very leary of anybody who says they speak on God’s behalf.

  121. murphy, NO WAY do I respect a religion that condones the murder of women and girls. Not tolerant of it. Not respectful of it. I stick my tongue out at Islam. How on earth do zee’s comments amount to bigotry?
    _______________________________________________________

    murphy, not being religious myself I did used to feel more or less the way you have written about here. What opened my eyes, however, were statements from young Mulsims who said that attributing views like this to them was like comparing their thoughts to those of religious zealotry ans extremism in Christian religions. Not all Christians – probably not many – hold extremist views, and we understand that. However, in some Muslim societies, that is the caricature of Christianity, just as we can so easily caricature Islam.

    Tolerance and kindness demand of us that we place ourselves in the position of another and try to understand their way of thinking. Outlandish actions we can all condemn and should condemn. But to be intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from our own is indeed bigotry. I do not think cutting off people’s hands is a lifestyle choice, but not many Muslims actually do that. Equally I think putting people to death routinely as is done on the US is not a lifestyle choice. I happen to think that both things are morally wrong. But I will try to understand why some people believe strongly they are not.

    I hate to say it, because his Klown head will swell even more than usual – but myiq is right.

  122. How is it the nutcase on the street says God talks to him and everyone just rolls their eyes? But Pat Robertson, Jimmy Swaggert & George Bush says God talks to them, and no one bats an eye.

  123. madamab, on October 23rd, 2008 at 2:14 pm Said:

    PJ – The best pageantry I’ve ever experienced was in an Episcopalian church (I was a soprano soloist there for years). The Christmas service included lambs, donkeys and adorable children acting out the birth of Jesus. Wonderful!

    Was that at the Cathedral of St. John the Divine? I went to the Paul Winter/Winter Solstice celebration there when I first came back to the East Coast – it was so wonderful to be in a beautiful place celebrating a pagan holiday! The cathedral is gorgeous and they have such an open mindedness about them – I want to go to the Blessing of the Animals one year. I’ve heard that even a giraffe was in the Cathedral!

  124. Delphyne : Is that a Border Collie?

  125. So how is Bill Mahers movie religulous doing??? has he converted anyone to atheism yet??
    Most athiests i know are smarter than Bill…and I must say and they dont proselytize.
    Proselytizing is against my religion anyway… tee heee

  126. Delphyne – St. John The Divine is certainly an amazing church for pageantry! My church was the Church of the Heavenly Rest, on 90th and 5th, though.

  127. There is no Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu or any other religous country on the face of the planet that murders women or girls in the name of religion.

    Not one.

    Sometimes moral equivalency really IS immoral.

  128. when I lived in Sevilla I went to the cathedral (3rd largest in the world) for midnight mass, and you can’t help but get lost in the grandeur. but as pat says, pure theater…but what theater!!!

  129. griffithinc – yes, that is my sweet border collie Kylie. Do you have one, too?

  130. murphy – I respectfully disagree with you.

    In every religious war, women and children have died by the millions.

    No religion is exempt from blame in the way it treats women.

  131. Murphy

    Some might argue that withholding birth control such as condoms in a place where AIDS is rampant is akin to murder.

  132. ibd/tipp poll down to obama +1

    these state polls that are coming out are hard to believe, imo

    hopefully it’s not just wishful thinking on my part

  133. When I lived in San Diego, the Religious Science church I went to bussed up the Crystal Cathedral each year for the Christmas Pageant. Talk about theatre.

  134. We had a darling border collie named Dixie, but she’s gone and we miss her so much. We’re hoping she’s finds us again soon.

  135. you made me laugh with that hedonistic heathenism!
    on the nationalism though, gee– the USof A needs to stop outsourcing sometime damn soon or ?

    !

    good post liberal to liberal, but of course……

  136. I just saw a very interesting Gallup Poll….there is NO increase in proportion of first time voters…stats are almost identical to 2004.

    Does that mean that all of the hype about Obama bringing in so many first time voters is just HYPE? I’m shocked I tell ya!

    Mountain Sage

  137. Pat J — maybe I misunderstood murphy — but I don’t think it is right to condemn religion because the people practicing them misuse religion to perpetrate crimes against humanity. I’m catholic — the history of the church is filled by crimes against humanity — but those were the deeds of people substituting their own will for “God’s will.” The actual faith of the religion is quite beautiful and is not to be confused with the religious organization (run by people). The same thing happened to Islam — which is actually quite a peaceful religion — the people in charge are abusing their positions of power & substituting their own will for God’s will. I think it is intellectually lazy to blame the religion itself for these abuses of power within the religious organization and, quite frankly, smacks of elitism — “poor stupid silly sheep believing in that fairy tale” the meme seems to go. Not much different from accusing them of clinging to their religion to vote against their self-interest, imo.

  138. Old testament Bible trivia

    God asked who to sacrifice his only son?

    Murphy,

    I agree with madamab. No religion is exempt.

  139. I am a Christian – I am a member of a Lutheran Church with a female pastor and the congregation is reconciling in Christ.

    I still believe it is a gift that we can all experience our spiritual lives in the way that we are moved.

  140. ooh — myiq is an Aries? He’s perfect for me — I’m an Aries too.

  141. Religious freedom means nothing if it only applies to certain religions

  142. CWaltz: Issac?

  143. CWaltz — God asked only Himself to sacrifice his only son. (Isaac was Abraham’s youngest son & God didn’t really intend for Abraham to sacrifice him)

  144. I agree with angie.

    I know more than one very religious Muslim. Surprisingly enough, neither of them has ever killed his daughter, and neither of them would ever consider doing so.

  145. CWaltz: where is the sacrifice? God will provide.

    I think that was Abraham.

  146. Hey, myiq! I don’t always agree with you but I do usually —- and very often post “ditto” here (most recently on your passion regarding the LaRouche cult) on your comments. I assumed you would recognize that I was truly excited to have you posting at TGW. I love to see your posts anywhere.

    Sorry if you thought I was being sarcastic.

    As for the “good people” who are Mormons, Scientologists, etc. I stand by my statements. I detest all religion because the vast amount is pathologically paternalistic. But there are some more pathological than others.

    Read up on the WOMEN who escape from the likes of the Mormon cult, and the women who are speaking out on the brutality of Islam as it is practiced in far too many places. Speaking out on unacceptable misogynistic practices is not “rounding people up.”

    You can’t go to a Mormon wedding. Why? It’s a CULT. They need the secrecy to maintain all the practices they pretend they’ve dropped. If you haven’t read up on how the rank and file has one set of rules while the elite of the inner circle have another and WHY, that’s not my problem. The latest example is how that photographer was ex-communicated for taking pictures of Mormon men with no shirts on. Meanwhile, Mittwit, my former governor, was “allowed” (because he’s inner circle) to take a picture with his shirt off on the beach during his campaign here to dupe the public into thinking he, and the Mormons, have moved on from their “garment” days.

    And as for Islam….there should be zero “tolerance” for stoning women, draping women, letting girls burn to death because the firemen can’t touch them, honor killings, and on and on. It’s gender apartheid and we need to call it out.

    Far too often the progressive community sees no problem with reaming, for instance, the Catholic Church because of their priest problems, yet gives a complete pass to brutal Islamic practices because they don’t want to appear “intolerant.” That’s a double standard.

    But, everyone, these are things I post all the time, and I certainly didn’t mean to call myiq out in any way. Myiq, I’m sorry if that’s how it came across when you came to TGW, but I was truly happy to see you. I had actually just posted a similar comment on another thread in this same topic, so I was already on that topic, and not meaning to single you out.

    You’ll all have to forgive me if I can’t read and reply to all the comments today.
    It’s a bit overwhelming to be singled out for an entire topic….even if the topic is one I’m always ready to discuss.

    That is, the topic on why we need zero tolerance on gender apartheid, not on who Zee is or who she thinks she is or can you believe the things that come out of that crazy girl’s typewriter!

    Again, I absolutely did not mean to make you feel uncomfortable at TGW at al, myiql….and I know we’ve not “bantered” here, but I thought I’d ditto’d your comments often enough for you to recognize a “friendly” tone, but I obviously failed miserably!

    TGW doesn’t need to condone or condemn my statements, btw…I’m no spokesperson of the site. But, it is true that the more one reads the same comments from the same person, the more they know where s/he’s coming from, even when s/he doesn’t fully type them out on every occasion.

  147. dakinikat, on October 23rd, 2008 at 2:26 pm Said:

    DYB: can we talk about how all religions are invented by people? Does it make any difference if it was invented in the iron age? the information age? the stone age? they are all man invented for one or two folks to control the rest of the herd
    _______________________________________________________
    dakinakat, I don’t know. I’ve been thinking about setting up a Church of Euclid, Geometer. We worship geometry (a church so far as the INS is concerned does not have to recognize a creator) and we take the works of Euclid – his Elements – as Gospel, though not infallibly so. The sermon next week, for example, might be based on Pythagoras’ theorem. It seems to me this has several advantages. It brings back the study of Euclidean geometry to the faithful. It promotes rational thinking. It gets us a tax break, and some people will be foolish enough to leave us large donations. There would even be no restriction on commenting on or participating in political matters, as recent events have shown. The threat of not joining the Church of Euclid, Geometer, would be the eternal damnation of irrational thought (unless proven otherwise by acceptable alternatives, such as passing bar exams, or being a really clever chemist).

    Didn’t Ron Hubbard do something like this? (Not as well based in history or logic, of course).

    Even though Euclid lived a very long time ago, I would see this Church as a product of the digital age, for two several reasons. First people do not have to be in contiguity to collectively worship Euclid’s writings – we can do it via email or a WordPress account! Also Euclid’s Elements are available in a searchable form on-line, and finally software such as Geometer’s Sketch Pad allows us to demonstrate the truthfulness of what we speak to all those who will but observe with an open mind.

    Failing that, we could set up a new political party, but you can see the trouble one needs to go to to excommunicate or expel unsavory people from a political party. A religion would work much better.

    Having written this in response to your question, I feel that I can understand Obama so much better.

  148. Abraham didn’t know that(and indeed Isaac was the son).

  149. Zee:

    I have been to Mormon weddings, but I’m not a Mormon.

  150. DYB — Scientology is most certainly NOT considered a bona fide religion (except maybe in Hollywood).

  151. I like the religion of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, they’re Pastafarians. 🙂

  152. Zee:

    Let me add, Christianity has done some pretty shitty stuff to women, minorities and non-believers

  153. myiq2xu, on October 23rd, 2008 at 2:55 pm Said:

    Zee:

    I have been to Mormon weddings, but I’m not a Mormon.
    ________________________________________________

    As a clown?

  154. There is also a “Church of Reality” if it’s real, they believe it.

  155. myiq2xu,

    I think that your statement could be changed a bit to many people claiming to be Christians have done a lot of crap to women, minorities and non-believers. 🙂

  156. ok I am just going for it here …. if you consider at religion from an anthropological point of view …
    the sacrifice of ISAAC in the bible .. or hebrew tribal record ( oh boy I am in trouble now) could be interpreted as a great milestone of humanity ….ending human sacrifice as a tribal practice for appeasing or pleasing an angry deity …

    just a thought

  157. CWaltz — sorry to be nit-picky (and I wanted to tell you in the first place that it was a trick question) but the question said “only son” — the fact that Abraham didn’t know that Ishmael was his son should not effect the way you wrote the question. Furthermore, God did not intend for Abraham to sacrifice Isaac, so it wasn’t a sacrifice — God will provide. Only God has sacrificed his only Son.

  158. myiq – Only if you count the Inquisition and the Crusades. And the priests who molested children with no consequences.

    😉

    But I think Zee’s point (if I don’t mistake her) is that we should not excuse any violence perpetrated in the name of religion for the sake of political correctness. I believe that completely.

  159. You can’t go to a Mormon wedding. Why? It’s a CULT. They need the secrecy to maintain all the practices they pretend they’ve dropped. If you haven’t read up on how the rank and file has one set of rules while the elite of the inner circle have another and WHY, that’s not my problem.

    Zee:

    Did you know that some bigots claim that Jews have a secret conspiracy to “negrify” the white race?

  160. angienc, on October 23rd, 2008 at 2:59 pm Said:

    Only God has sacrificed his only Son.
    ________________________________________________

    I recall Bill Cosby threatened to once in his TV show.

  161. Swanspirit — exactly — the Judeo-Christian God has never asked for a human sacrifice, which is why I have a problem with the question the way CWaltz framed it. (Sorry CWaltz — still love you — just didn’t like the question!)

  162. madamab:

    You forgot what the Catholic church did to Native Americans and black slaves

  163. myiq – Is someone giving up our secrets again? Darn it! And I was hoping my children would tan as well as I do.

  164. myiq2xu, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:02 pm Said:

    madamab:

    You forgot what the Catholic church did to Native Americans and black slaves
    _____________________________________________________

    Ah, yes, but the Pope may not have deemed them to be “people” at the time.

  165. Here’s the text Angie

    God commanded, “Take your son, your only son, Isaac, whom you love, and go to the region of Moriah. Sacrifice him there as a burnt offering” (Genesis 22:2a).

    Yes God did. That he did not require that sacrifice be made does not negate that he made it.

  166. btw — if anyone wants to see the ultimate religious pageantry go to the Greek Orthodox midnight Easter mass. Nothing holds a candle to it.

  167. The difference between a “cult” and a “religion” is the number of people who belong to it.

  168. I always thought it was kind of a dirty trick for God to ask Abraham to do that, just to see if he would obey. That doesn’t sound like a very nice deity. He wasn’t so nice to Job either.

  169. i’m still on the celestial teapot watch

  170. akinikat, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:05 pm Said:

    i’m still on the celestial teapot watch

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Love it!

  171. griffinthinc: you sorta have to wonder what a perfect, omniscient, ominpresent, all loving being is doing with that sort’ve thing do you?

  172. 100 years from now, people will be horrified to learn about some of the practices that are common place right now. It is very easy to sit and judge the behavior of people in the past, but no one can really step into their shoes and see the world the way people used to. Neither can we see the world through other peoples eyes that are our contemporaries. Having said that, I would prefer to live in a place that guaranteed freedom of and from Religion.
    I have to defend the Mormons, though. I lived in a town of 2500 people in Utah where the population was probably 99% Mormon. For the most part, I was treated very respectfully, and I came to admire many things about their culture. Didn’t make me want to become one, but did give me an appreciation for them.

  173. CWaltz — and do you still contend that Isaac was Abraham’s only son? That was a problem with your question as well.
    Nonetheless, we are going to have to agree to disagree about the intent issue — I believe if there is no intent to require the sacrifice then no sacrifice was asked.

  174. angie – I sang in one of those services once. It was a Christmas Greek Orthodox service. Amazing!

    Folks, don’t get me started on the Catholic church. I have a really serious problem with it, as much as I love my Catholic friends.

    “We agree to disagree.”

    Ah. All better!

  175. Lotsa bloodthirsty stuff in the Bible. It’s almost hard to reconcile the Old testament with the New one.

  176. Well

    I guess I’m gonna head out and enjoy some sunshine and not ruckus anymore.

    hugs to Angie. I still ove ya even if you didn’t like myt question.

  177. Christianity practices ritual cannibalism.

    The “miracle of transubstantiation” is a tenet of the Catholic church.

    Christians and Jews also mutilate the penises of baby boys.

  178. Well

    I guess I’m gonna head out and enjoy some sunshine and not ruckus anymore.

    hugs to Angie. I still love ya even if you didn’t like my question.

  179. CWaltz, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:09 pm Said:

    I still ove ya even if you didn’t like myt question.

    ____________________________________________

    Wot you been drinkin?

  180. If you haven’t had the chance, everyone should read “letters from the earth” by Mark Twain. maybe god (or satan) would be mystified by how we worship him 🙂

  181. Double post D’oh

  182. I prefer to believe the whole bible was made up by men who wanted to have power over the people. And it looks like they succeeded. Same w/the Koran.

  183. dakinikat> That’s precisely the point I was making. Here’s an actual religion, started within some of our lifetimes.

    The interesting thing about Buddhism is that Budha himself (the original one) never intended it to be a religion. He never claimed to be a deity of any kind. He was a philosopher and he did not want people who liked his philosophy to worship him. Naturally, after his death people started worshipping him. But in so many ways Buddhism is still a philosophy, not a religion. Maybe then we get into sematics.

  184. AngieNC
    …. that is just one of my own theories LOL ask me about the gorilla skulls and evolution sometime 😉

    My own spiritual leanings are more numinous in nature ; but most people think I mean I collect coins….

  185. Not drinking, typing with a cat on my lap.

  186. It is really discouraging that we even talk religion in the midst of political discussions and dialogue. Yet, I can not deny that the sheer awesome pageantry of a forest, a mountain, a star studded sky cause me to believe that there has to be something greater than we mortal humans because we for sure would never have come up with all that great stuff on our own.

  187. Has anyone had what they consider a Religious experience?

    One that doesn’t include drugs?

  188. MYIQ,
    That mutilation, according to Elaine Benes, gives the genitalia character.

  189. There are certain practices and beliefs that we can and should condemn.

    But many of the claims made about Islam and Mormonism are not true.

  190. Belief is great, belief is imagination, belief is liberating. Belief leads to all sorts of wonderful ideas. Which is why the scientific method was invented. Experiential reality trumps belief. Which can be very deflating – or very liberating.

  191. DYB: could be a case of semantics … religion is only supposed to be a set of beliefs or tenets … although most folks find it to be a broader definition than that

  192. Mawm,
    I would consider “falling in love” a religious experience. Everyone I’ve ever met has looked for something beyond themselves. Some find it in religion. Some find it in a relationship. Some find it in work.

  193. DYB, Buddhism is a religion. No buddhist worships Buddha. It is a non-theistic religion.

  194. Folks, can we just agree to disagree on the whole religion thing? It’s a pretty personal thing and I have to admit that some of the comments are a bit bothersome to me. I know I’m not a mod or even a long time person here, but I hope that people can agree with me on this.

  195. myiq2xu, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:10 pm Said:

    Christians and Jews also mutilate the penises of baby boys.
    __________________________________________________

    It’s the difference between being a roundhead or a cavalier. And who’s going to choose at age 21 to have a guy with a scalpel approach your magic wand to do a trim job?

  196. Mawm

    I lost a son. The evening he died I felt a presence with me. Our loss decimated my husband’s opinion of God. It only made my belief stronger. On bad days though I do think that perhaps it’s just wishful thinking on my part.

  197. Sal:

    That’s exactly my point. Religious freedom means we agree to disagree.

  198. I hate giving IQ any props–he’s my imagined antagonist–but this is spot on:

    But many of the claims made about Islam and Mormonism are not true.

  199. If there actually was a Jesus, I doubt he would be happy with how many of his followers have behaved all these years.

  200. CWaltz, it’s wishful thinking of the most beautiful, poignant kind. A universal pain that we feel through you.

  201. Dog is my co-pilot

  202. gqmartinez, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:16 pm Said:

    Some find it in work.
    ___________________________________

    Can I get a job with you?

  203. I’m kinda enjoying talking about something other than the Precious

  204. Mawm actually I did in a way …

    I dont know i f you would call it ” relgious ” .. it was at Summer Solstice at Stonehenge in England in 1999 …
    I never ever expected anything like that to happen to me and i am still not certain what it all means …

    A friend of mine who is a composer wrote a “symphony” about it … you can hear it here

    http://www.myspace.com/symphonyofthestones

    and read what I wrote about it too 🙂

  205. D you that the amnesiac, dyslexic, agnostic lay awake all night wondering if there really was a dog?

  206. CWaltz, I’m very sorry. Losing a child has to be the worst thing that can happen to a human being.

  207. I am intrigued with religion, not because of what it says about god but because of what it says about people. Religion is only human, so it’s only natural that it has its share of sickos just like the rest of humanity.

    I steadfastly agree with all posters who are making the point that religion should never be used as a excuse for repression, abuse or violence.

  208. Sal said:

    “can we just agree to disagree on the whole religion thing? It’s a pretty personal thing…”

    Exactly right. To poorly paraphrase a moody British pop star, talking about faith is often like dancing about architecture.

    Apologies for the possible thread-jack here, but over at a rightish site they have a big post on b.hussein’s campaign finance crimes and the media’s refusal to cover them.

    http://www.ace.mu.nu/

    This site welcomes PUMAs, saw IQx2 over there a couple times, if memory serves. They do talk a bit salty, so if you visit, beware.

    I have no affiliation with this site other than it makes for good reading- figured y’all might enjoy the post mentioned.

  209. I tend to think Islam is going through a phase that Christianity did a few hundred years ago with the religion and government totally dependent on one another and a violent and unbending attitude towards those of different beliefs.

    Think Catholics and Protestants. Except in the case of the IRA, Christianity has settled down a lot. Hopefully the same type of evolution will happen to Islam.

  210. I have a friend who sees spirits. I’ve had other friends like this. I totally believe that they believe they see spirits. But I can’t see them, it would scare the bejessus outta me. But who am I to say they don’t see them.

  211. gxm,

    Here’s what I always ask: Do you need religion for violence and suppression? In most cases of oppression, religion has been used by both sides to justify what they do. Does religion predispose one to oppress or is it merely a post fact justification?

  212. As a lapsed Catholic I found a great deal of beauty in faith. There was solace in the prayers, the architectonic space, the scent of incense, the visual trappings, paintings, statues, stained glass. Private prayer and lighted candles are still to me something to indulge at times of death.
    What I didn’t like as a child were the priests and the nuns and the indoctrination.

    My son has grown up an atheist. As the child of a divorced woman, he could not be accepted into the flock.

    Sometimes I feel he is missing something.
    As a child he became part of our local choir, (not a church choir, but a classic opera sort of choir) and in that toured many local churches and small theaters in the area b4 his voice broke.
    But I still feel he is missing out on part of the beauty.

  213. I like this quote, I’m paraphrasing, “Good men will always do good things, evil men will always do evil things, but it takes religion to make good men do evil things.”

  214. griffith:

    I see dumb people. I see them everywhere, and most of them don’t even know they are dumb.

  215. Mawm,

    You should read “No god but God” by Reza Azlan. He talks a lot about what you just wrote. The real battle against jihadists is internal.

  216. CWaltz — I still love ya too!!

  217. the soviets under stalin seemed to be able to both use violent oppression and suppresion of free thought without any particular religion.

  218. Angie, did you see the comment I posted about the church that was right off the CBD? I was almost certain that was a Greek Orthodox church.

    Hey, did you ever get to go to midnight Mass at Holy Name on Loyola’s campus? Beautiful service and with the music department participation, the music was just awe-inspiring. On the downside, I went one time and had to stand in back of the church. My God! Those Uptown snobs had certainly been imbibing before the service!

  219. griffith — like Ghandi said “I like your Jesus, but I don’t like your Christians” 🙂
    True enough — but there was a Jesus of Nazarath (proven historical fact) — whether he was the Christ, though, that is obviously open to debate.

  220. I had a very powerful Religious experience when I was 20. I cannot really describe to you want happened, but the essence of it was

    Everything is easy. People make it hard for themselves.

  221. Fredster — forgot to answer you on that one — yes, when I was little that is where we went to Church. It moved though to the Lakefront (don’t know if you have ever been out there, maybe for Greek Fest?)

  222. myiq:

    HAHAHA! Yes they are everywhere. Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.

  223. CWaltz: I can’t imagine.

  224. I’m a sorta lapsed Roman Catholic. My mom was very devout, which made me rebel early. At one point in my teens I was a Baha’i for a few years. Yet I’m raising my kids as sorta (not devout) Catholics.
    What I like about the Catholic Church is that it has been around for so long that it has it’s own history to learn from, and sometimes it does. What I dislike about it is too long to list. (I do like Jesuits.)
    I believe in something, but I don’t believe in the divinity of Jesus et al.
    I agree with Laurie & Pat J and a lot of others on this thread.
    And a great break from discussing That One.

  225. angie: I know where it is … have several friends that go there

  226. Swannie – beautiful words, especially the last ones. I’ll check back later for the music…

    I’m enjoying the discussion, too, of something other than Obama for the moment. I think of religion as food – there’s lots of variety, something for everyone, including abstaining. I also agree that religions which abuse, use violence, etc absolutely need to be called out for the actions.

  227. Don’t see my reply…

    Oh yeah, I have been to the Hellenic Center out by the lakefront. I loved Greek Fest. All the food was sooooo good!

  228. griffithinc, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:29 pm Said:

    I like this quote, I’m paraphrasing, “Good men will always do good things, evil men will always do evil things, but it takes religion to make good men do evil things.”

    The best sermon my priest ever gave had to do with people substituting their own will for God’s will in the name of religion. It is done all the time by all kinds of people from all kinds of religions and it is extremely dangerous. I believe it is a very important (but not often drawn distinction). It is not God or religion that is making anyone commit evil acts– God & religion is a pretext that people use to justify their evil actions. I like the quote from Abraham Lincoln:
    “Sir, my concern is not whether God is on our side my greatest concern is to be on God’s side, for God is always right.”

  229. Hey, that reminds me of Fry (of Futurama): “That’s the worst kind of discrimination: the one against me”
    As long as no one messes with the separation of church and state they can all believe whatever they wish .

  230. Here was the original statement that I objected to:

    The Republicans are liars, remember? All the Pro-8 ads that have been running are filled with lies, thanks to the Mormon cash, and like Dominionists the Mormons by faith believe that it is perfectly acceptable to lie to achieve “God’s” ends. Nice bunch all around.

    There are individual Mormons who oppose that tenet, the OK to lie sham, but there are many more who see it as scripture. The Church tried to mobilize CA Mormons on this but hardly anyone turned out; they’ve had to truck people in from Utah to hand out literature and most all of the money (80% of the Pro-8 budget) is coming from Mormon HQ front groups.

    I’ve seen that same bullshit about it being okay to lie to non-believers said about Islam.

  231. madamab — you are right — religious wars kill millions.

    However there hasn’t really been a religious war for 500 years.

    Religious people have FOUGHT in and STARTED wars ever since religion was invented, of course, but that’s not a “religious war”

    I stand by my point. Islam is the only religion on the face of the planet that actually WRITES THE LAWS AND RUNS THE GOVENRMENT in some countries.

    you know, really nice places like Sudan and Somalia and Afganistan under the Taliban.

    The UN estimates that 5000 women and girls are murdered every year for breaking Islam’s laws governing female behavior and dress.

    There are 57 member countries in the official Organization of the Islamic Conference. The mission statement includes, “contributing to the efforts of the International community to build and promote a better world based on cultural diversity, mutual respect and understanding, tolerance, solidarity and cooperation, in conformity with the Islamic values and teachings.”

    “in conformity with Islamic values and teachings”

    Only Islam is officially involved, at every level, from high to low, in the governments of any country. Even Israel, arguably a religious state, separates religion from the official government.

    wiki tells me “Most Islamists and islamic jurists consider the Western concept of separation of Church and State to be rebellion against God’s law”

    I dont disagree with anyone who says that religion offers comfort and guidance to millions and millions of people of every faith. Absolutely true.

    I dont hate Muslims, or Jews, or Christians, or anybody really.

    I do hate Islamic law. Hate it.

  232. Zee:

    There is no entire nation that practices Mormonism.

  233. Delphyne

    thank you so much !! Some people say if they listen to the music…. they share the experience !
    It takes me back every time, but I dont “go out for the day ” the way I did that day …. any feedback or insight is always welcome !

  234. BTW, urgetocompute, I didn’t say that *I* had a “religitous experience” due to my job. Hell, I’m still unemployed.

  235. CWaltz – experienced same – but know it unquestionably occurred. I have never talked about it – too soon and too precious.

  236. Laurie,

    I recall one day standing in our backyard with my father. A field with horses to in front of us, a creek to the left, forest behind us. I asked him why we didn’t go to church. He swept his arms wide and said: Why hide inside a man-made structure when we god gave us all this? This is god’s house, not some church.

    I was quite young but I understood the truth he spoke. So don’t worry about us atheists. We aren’t missing out on the beauty.

    Actually, the only religious belief that I’ve ever felt any connection to is the Beauty Way. Personally, I think the Navajo nailed it with that one.

  237. Delphyne, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:35 pm Said:

    I also agree that religions which abuse, use violence, etc absolutely need to be called out for the actions.

    And herein lies the crux of my disagreement — I believe the people committing acts of abuse violence etc. need to be called out on their actions and for the rest of us not to blanketly place blame on the entire religion for the actions of those individuals.

  238. Murphy:

    There are people in this country that would like to impose religious law on us and they aren’t Moslems.

    If they succeeded I would move elsewhere.

    I am talking about tolerance of the religions being practiced here in this country. We don’t discriminate against people of the Islamic faith here because of what SOME Moslems do in other places.

  239. Oh my apparently a Mccain staffer/supported of some sort was attacked and mutilated…. check out drudge

  240. IQ,

    To use a phrase from the Talking Heads, “Stop Making Sense”

  241. These acts perpetrated by people who adhere to a certain religion make the religion look bad. You can’t always separate the people from the religion. That’s why I am no longer a member of any religion. I don’t need it, I don’t want it and I think I am just fine thank you. I don’t believe all that hell, and fire and brimstone either. It’s just another way to scare people.

  242. btw — when I use the word “religion” I mean legitimate, world-recognized religions, not cults like the Branch Davidians — and yes, I am the person who decides what is a cult and what is a religion 🙂
    And yes, I know the people here who are intellectually superior to me consider my religion a cult — that’s fine. I’m still the one who decides what is a religion and what is a cult for the purposes of my argument. 🙂

  243. female genital mutilation is in no way comparable to circumcision.

    Catholic mothers in many cultures pierce the ears of their little baby girls too.

    jesus christ on a ham sandwich.

    scraping off the labia of a twelve year old, with little or no anaesthesia in an unsterile setting, is human TORTURE.

    glibly comparing it to circumcision is intellectually dishonest and offensive as well.

  244. BPD, I hope that’s not true. It sounds horrible.

  245. griffth — I respectfully disagree — you can always separate the person & that person’s free will from the religion.

  246. Dagnabbit, angie is making sense too. Oy. My head hurts.

  247. Zee:

    According to Murphy, there hasn’t been a religious war for 500 years

    I tend to agree with Murphy, because even though we hear about religious conflicts in Northern Ireland and the former Yugoslavia, the real source of conflict is economic and ethnic.

    Gender apartheid is wrong, but it is not exclusive to or inseparable from Islam.

  248. UGH! I hate going to the Drudge report — to spare everyone else, it seems that a “B” was carved into a 20 year old McCain supporter’s face.

  249. OMG!!

    Everyone, seriously please just goto http://www.drudgereport.com for a second and check out the big red title!!

    A female McCain volunteer in Pittsburgh was attacked and a “B” CARVED into her face.

  250. lol angienc

  251. gqmartinez, on October 23rd, 2008 at 4:00 pm Said:

    Dagnabbit, angie is making sense too. Oy. My head hurts.

    Hey! You say that like it is unusual!

  252. The world is so wonderful and mysterious. At the atomic level things can be in multiple states at one time, until someone looks at it. The tree that no one witnessed both fell and didn’t fall.

    Watch out for the quantum computer. When it comes out, the whole world will change over night. 10 years ago scientists made a one bit of information be both 1 and 0 at the same time. Last time I read they had a whole byte like that. A byte is 8 bits. 8 bits can represent 256 different numbers. The computers we have now would have to try each of the 256 permutations one at a time, but since a “quantum byte” is actually in 256 states at one time, it would only take one step to search it.

    There is a religion in there somewhere.

  253. murphy’s right. FGM usually ruins a girl’s ability to enjoy sex and often leaves her unable to experience sex without pain and puts her at a higher risk in childbirth. It’s beyond cruel in theory and in practice.

  254. Anyone heard anything regarding the story currently atop Drudge’s site?

    —————-
    ‘B’ CARVED INTO 20-YEAR OLD WOMAN’S FACE… DEVELOPING…

    SHOCK: MCCAIN VOLUNTEER ATTACKED AND MUTILATED IN PITTSBURGH
    —————-

  255. I’m hoping that the Drudge Report attack isn’t true. It’s just so horrible.

  256. I’m hoping that the Drudge Report attack isn’t true. It’s just so horrible.
    Me too.

  257. Murphy:

    Circumcision has been practiced for millenia, and only recently has it done in a sterile setting. Typically no anesthesia is used.

    I was too young to remember when it was done to me, but I can assure you that if anyone started cutting off any portion of my penis without anesthetic today I would consider it torture, and unless it was medically necessary it would be genital mutilation

  258. Yes and no Angie, I can see your point. But these people are representing their religion. A lot of us gay people put down the flamboyance of the drag queens and motor cycle dykes and all because they say that’s what the public sees and they think all gay people are like that. But the fact is, this IS a faction of gay people, and we have to live with it. Just like we have to live with crazy people in our families, or our friends who are Obots. They still make the core group look bad. So I guess we have to agree to disagree or whatever.

  259. Damn, I hope this report is NOT true.

  260. I’m not defending FGM or any other barbaric practice, including circumcision.

    But not all Islamic countries practice FGM

  261. myiq, I had a friend who had to have one at the age of 30. Not pleasant at all.

  262. Drudge Rule #1:

    Don’t believe anything you see there unless verified by a reputable source.

  263. griffithinc –I guess I’m saying there is a difference between the core group “looking bad” and actually “being bad.” But, I have no problem agreeing to disagree. Besides, I can take comfort in the fact that I know I’m right and you are wrong.
    I keed! I keed! 🙂

  264. Mawm,

    Why would someone have to have a circumcision at age 30? Yeouch.

  265. FMG would only be comparable to circumcision if the entire penis were removed. Sadly in some cases a circumcision can go wrong and the boy can be irreparably injured, but thankfully that’s rare. And it’s certainly not the intent. Whereas with FMG the intent is to ruin a girl’s sexual organs.

  266. Angie: I can take comfort in the fact that I know I’M right and you are wrong too!! =))

  267. 😉

  268. FGM. Geez, I’m typing even worse than normal today.

  269. No one in the Western World can defend FGM — however, FGM is an example of the people running the religion substituting their own will for God’s will, imo. The fact that not all Islamic countries practice FGM shows it is NOT a legitimate part of the religion itself.

  270. griffithinc, I marched in the gay pride parade in NYC with a NObama t shirt and Anti Obama signs. One troop of very flamboyent drag queens asked me not to march close to them. I thought, “Wow, I am being shunned by the shunned”.

  271. OT-but remember our half-serious jokes about re-education camps?

    It’s an interview with an FBI infiltrator of the Weathermen:
    testimony of FBI informant Larry Grathwohl in the 1982 documentary No Place to Hide discussiong re-education camps and what would happen to those who would not get re-educated.

    http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2008/10/eliminating_25_million_america.html

    Time article from 10/6/1975-Larry Gratwohl talks about his time with the Weathermen. He quotes Bernardine Dohm…

    http://www.time.com/time/printout/0,8816,913516,00.html

  272. griffithinc, his foreskin was strangling his member.

  273. Angie:

    How do you know what is God’s will? How do we mere humans know that? Seriously.

  274. griffithinc — I knew you’d feel that way too! 🙂

  275. I’ve read of grown men getting circumcised. In the article I read it was for cosmetic purposes.

  276. good points griffithinnc, but I think you should thank god you werent born in an islamic country. they dont cotton to that way of thinking.

  277. 😉 😉

  278. gxm:

    That’s like arguing that r@cism is worse than sexism

  279. Murphy: I do thank (whatever) that I was born in the US of A

  280. myiq, LOL. You got me on that one. 😀

  281. Oops, I meant to add:

    They’re both bad, does it matter which one is worse?

  282. ” his foreskin was strangling his member.”

    Wow, that’s terrible. never heard of that before.

  283. ” his foreskin was strangling his member.”

    Is that like choking your chicken?

  284. Folks, we now have confirmation of the attack and multilation on the McCain supporter.

    ===========================
    http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/17789356/detail.html

    Woman Attacked At ATM, Assailant Carves Letter Into Her Face
    Woman Robbed, Attacked With Knife At Bloomfield ATM

    POSTED: 4:03 pm EDT October 23, 2008
    UPDATED: 4:10 pm EDT October 23, 2008
    PITTSBURGH — A 20-year-old woman who was robbed at an ATM in Bloomfield was also maimed by her attacker, police said.

    Pittsburgh police spokeswoman Diane Richard tells Channel 4 Action News that the victim was robbed at knifepoint on Wednesday night outside of a Citizens Bank near Liberty Avenue and Pearl Street just before 9 p.m.

    Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then became angry when he saw a McCain bumper sticker on the victim’s car. The attacker then punched and kicked the victim, before using the knife to scratch the letter “B” into her face, Richard said.

    Richard said the woman refused medical treatment after the assault, which happened outside the view of the bank’s surveillance cameras.

    The robber is described as a dark-skinned black man, 6 feet 4 inches tall, 200 pounds with a medium build, short black hair and brown eyes. The man was wearing dark colored jeans, a black undershirt and black shoes.

  285. angienc

    You are right. FMG is not related to Islam but is a practice which pre-dates Islam, and one of the most horrible practices invented by man.

  286. Im still pissed about how the Democratic Party kicked out Paul Tsongas in 1988! Clearly he was a better candidate. Ive voted Republican ever since to stick it to the Democratic Party.

  287. On http://www.foxnews.com

    Obama is now spending $2 million for his victory party.

    And to think of all of the VP clothes he could have purchased for Sarah when he loses.

  288. Early voting ‘boosts Democrats’

    A huge surge in early voting across key states appears to be helping the Democratic candidate, Barack Obama.

    In one swing state, North Carolina, Democratic early voting is up 400% in the first week, with similar patterns in Ohio, Iowa, Nevada and New Mexico.

    Early voting now takes place in 34 states, although votes are only counted on 4 November.

    Up to one-third of all ballots are expected to be cast before election day, compared to one in five in 2004.

    The Democrats seem to be bringing out early voters in key swing states.

    In Clark County, Nevada, which covers the largest city, Las Vegas, Democrats outnumber Republicans in early voting by a two-to-one margin, higher than the 52% majority for the Democratic candidate, John Kerry, in 2004.

    In Cuyahoga County, Ohio, which covers the city of Cleveland, there have been 45,000 early voting Democrats and only 10,000 Republicans, far above the two-to-one margin by which Mr Kerry won in 2004.

    In New Mexico, which was won by George W Bush by 6,000 votes in 2004, twice as many Democrats as Republicans are voting early.

    And in North Carolina, which has been Republican but is now a swing state, of the 480,000 people who have voted early, 54% were Democrats, 27% Republicans, and 16% independents.

    Michael McDonald, a voting expert at George Mason University, said the data from North Carolina was stunning.

    “North Carolina, in particular, is off the charts,” Mr McDonald said. “This is outside of what we expected.”

    In Florida, absentee ballots are running three to two in favour of the Republicans, while in Colorado early voting is running roughly in line with overall voter registration.

  289. Carol, hillarious. Hasn’t anyone told him he is going to lose?

  290. griffithinc, on October 23rd, 2008 at 4:15 pm Said:

    Angie:

    How do you know what is God’s will?

    Being able to discern God’s will is difficult to explain it on the board. It takes faith & in fact I personally would never presume to say that I know what is God’s will. (But I have know determining what isn’t God’s will lol — kind of like pornography — I know what is man’s will when I see it). I also do not trust people who say they do know what is God’s will. The “formula” however is:

    1. The Word

    2. Inward impressions upon our spirit by the Holy Spirit

    3. Providence (His work in circumstances)

    4. Godly counsel

    5. Wisdom –redeemed wisdom like the kind in Proverbs (rather than the wisdom of the world)

    All the sources are trustworthy when they are all in agreement, and above all none may contradict the Word.

  291. that should say:

    “But I have no problem determining what isn’t God’s will”

  292. myiq2xu, Zee & all, this is a fantastic discussion.
    *********
    urgetocompute, on October 23rd, 2008 at 2:52 pm Said:

    dakinakat, I don’t know. I’ve been thinking about setting up a Church of Euclid, Geometer. We worship geometry (a church so far as the INS is concerned does not have to recognize a creator) and we take the works of Euclid – his Elements – as Gospel, though not infallibly so.

    *********
    urge, will you offer free tutoring?

    **********
    Mawm, on October 23rd, 2008 at 3:32 pm Said:

    I had a very powerful Religious experience when I was 20. I cannot really describe to you want happened, but the essence of it was

    Everything is easy. People make it hard for themselves.

    *****

    Mawm, thanks for describing the kind of experience I have been looking for all of my life. I had just about given up hope that it was possible!

  293. One of my colleagues thinks that Christians are being “persecuted” because of all the recent atheistic books that have come out criticizing Christianity and Islam. We live in east TN, and I’m like “when was the last time You were prevented from going to church?” Really? Around here it’s perfectly acceptable for complete strangers to ask if you’re a Christian and where you go to church. Drives me crazy!

  294. miq — I’m sure we basically agree. Discrimination based on religious belief is unconstitutional in our country, and thank god for that.

    However I dont believe that the constitutionally protected right to practice or not practice a religion extends to a requirement that we must be “tolerant” of every religion’s beliefs.

    Yup — that’s me. Intolerant of a religion that codifies the enslavement, disenfranchisement, mutilation, torture, and murder of women and girls.

  295. looking for integrity — I love it when I’m right! LOL

  296. Speaking of religion, check this out:

    http://www.usatoday.com/news/religion/2008-10-22-irs-catholic-obama_N.htm

    Now, in these here parts, it’s not at all unusual for a pastor to talk politics from the pulpit, especially in smaller towns. I had a friend who grew up in Easley, SC tell me her mom was voting for Bush because that’s who the pastor thought was best.

    Do I agree with that? Um, no. But do I think that the Kerry campaign should have sic’ed the dogs on them? HELL no!

  297. angie:

    Which “Word” is the word of God? Which version?

  298. http://www.thepittsburghchannel.com/news/17789356/detail.html

    Bank robbers for Obama. Why am I not surprised.

    And I definitely lay this at Obama’s feet — this violent anger at women. He leads by example.

  299. myiq2xu,

    I left you an answer at GWT and at your place. Considering
    Zee was a brave person and went with her Hillary sign to say
    she supported Hillary and was surrounded, had her sign ripped
    apart by several thugs and was final offered some assistance. I would say you don’t know Zee and her convictions/principles.

    She (Zee) reminds me of the Japanese lady who stood alone with her suitcase, her umbrella
    and her sign that said “count the votes” at the RBC meeting. For her
    that was darn radicle and she wouldn’t say a word to reporters. Just
    stood there, all day with her sign and in many ways she was louder
    than all of us, she was like a deafening symbol that you couldn’t miss.

    Well, shucks, I thought you liked women with spunk!

    Have a good day!

  300. If a church wants to be tax exempt, they should NOT preach politics from the pulpit. If they do, they should lose their tax exempt status. The UU Fellowship where I went didn’t believe churches should be tax exempt, so we paid taxes on our property.

  301. murphy, where the rubber hits the road on that one is the recent decision in Britain to allow Sharia law arbitration for Muslims. I am totally against that. They are turning a Western country into something from the Middle east and that disturbs me.

  302. Miq, seriously? I’d move with you if that were the case.

    But the fact is that there IS NO christian law or catholic law. The catholic christian faiths do not have an offical Law Book.

    maybe you were implying that some evangelical christian nutjobs would like to write American laws based on rules from the bible or something.

    or maybe you meant all the wild eyed jews who want to replace the Constitution with the Talmud.

    I dont know.

  303. I used to work for a NGO. My understanding of the FMG is that the men and women believe it keeps them faithful in marriage.

  304. Zee was with Gary and me at the Unity Protest in NH.

  305. griffithic — that takes faith — no one can give it to you, convince you of it, etc. Given that I’m a Christian, obviously that is the bible, specifically new testament. However, if you have ever studied the Koran or the Torah (or the writings of Lao Tzu for that matter) you know that all have very similar underlying principles. I personally believe all those books are valid.

  306. Murphy:

    It is well established that we can outlaw certain practices and the constitutional right of religious freedom does not apply.

  307. myiq:

    I am surprised. I have read a lot of “Zee’s” comments and I sort of like her, though I have never engaged in anything with him/her.
    However, I am aloowed to strongly disagree with someone and still like them, ain’t I?

  308. You can be tolerant of “beliefs” without being tolerant of actions. We allow the crazy KKK to have their beliefs so long as they don’t violate others rights. Once we get into not tolerating beliefs, we are headed for a disaster.

  309. jjmtacoma, on October 23rd, 2008 at 4:36 pm Said:

    I used to work for a NGO. My understanding of the FMG is that the men and women believe it keeps them faithful in marriage.

    ***********

    Keeps who faithful in marriage and why?

  310. Griffithinc – Well, there’s plenty of video evidence of Rev. Wright doing the same thing and I didn’t see the IRS snooping around his church.

    It’s not that I believe it’s okay for clergy to preach politics from the pulpit. Far from it. It’s the way this was handled. Kind of like the way the media went after Joe the Plumber for daring to question O.

  311. Mawm, on October 23rd, 2008 at 4:35 pm Said:
    murphy, where the rubber hits the road on that one is the recent decision in Britain to allow Sharia law arbitration for Muslims. I am totally against that. They are turning a Western country into something from the Middle east and that disturbs me.
    ……………

    Great point. The other ‘SHOCKING DEVELOPMENT’ is that all the
    women removed the complaints against their perpetrators. Hemmm,
    sound fishy to me! Also, in rulings the sons were awarded more than
    the daughters in cases of survivor estates. Hemmm…?

  312. That’s sad news. I was hoping it was untrue. This makes two FEMALE McCain supporters attacked by MEN because of their political beliefs. When is the MSM going to pick up on this? This is actual NEWS as opposed to fashion commentary.

    ITA, votermom. This is what happens when you condone and incite hate as Obama has done.

  313. Sal at 4:01pm

    PITTSBURGH — A 20-year-old woman who was robbed at an ATM in Bloomfield was also maimed by her attacker, police said.

    Pittsburgh police spokeswoman Diane Richard tells Channel 4 Action News that the victim was robbed at knifepoint on Wednesday night outside of a Citizens Bank near Liberty Avenue and Pearl Street just before 9 p.m.

    Richard said the robber took $60 from the woman, then became angry when he saw a McCain bumper sticker on the victim’s car. The attacker then punched and kicked the victim, before using the knife to scratch the letter “B” into her face, Richard said.

    Richard said the woman refused medical treatment after the assault, which happened outside the view of the bank’s surveillance cameras.

    The robber is described as a dark-skinned black man, 6 feet 4 inches tall, 200 pounds with a medium build, short black hair and brown eyes. The man was wearing dark colored jeans, a black undershirt and black shoes.

  314. OT People interview of Sarah & Todd Palin.
    Fluffy but I like how they talk about their marraige. Enjoy!
    http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20235099_1,00.html

  315. sorry guys — I feel like a jerk.

    I love miq2xu. read his blog every day.

    I shouldnt come over here and start arguing with the hosts. especially since I’m sure we basically agree.

    just sticking up for my gal zee — and also the tens of thousands of women who are tortured and murdered in the name of Islam every year.

    I’m sorry miq2xu — hopefully the conversation was enjoyable, it was for me, but i just realized i may be being kind of rude.

  316. But if you keep giving these churches a pass on what they do (preaching politics, trying to put religion into the constitution) they’ll keep doing it. They should be reminded of this. The founders were very wise keeping religion out of the constitution. They saw what it did to the people in the UK. I’m tried of feeling like a 2nd class citizen because I don’t believe in God and because I’m gay. I pay my taxes, I’m an American citizen, but because I’m not part of the status quo, I’m looked down upon.

  317. Zee:

    First of all the “pedophile priests” thing is a strawman. Nobody here is defending that.

    And why do you say it’s irrelevant that not all Islamic countries practice FGM? You condemn Islam for the practice instead of the countries that permit it.

    Last of all, why do consider male genital mutilation irrelevant? It is a barbaric religious practice that is not medically necessary.

  318. Murphy:

    You were not rude and I enjoyed the conversation too

  319. However, if you have ever studied the Koran or the Torah (or the writings of Lao Tzu for that matter) you know that all have very similar underlying principles. I personally believe all those books are valid.

    Actually, if you study more religions, you’ll find that nearly every major religion has some version of the Golden Rule. Many Biblical scholars do not find the teachings of Jesus to be novel or only preached by one person. In fact, “love they neighbor” and apocalyptic rabbis were not uncommon at the time of Jesus.

    Similarly, it’s pretty shocking how little people know about what the Koran is or says. The Koran was written in phases, much like the Bible, that coincided with events of the time. A large part of the Koran was written as a rather egalitarian society was being set up by the prophet Mohamed. Much like Jesus, Mohamed was more tolerant of women and “minorities” than most people in the societies. There is a theological debate as to the meaning of “jihad”. Some find it a personal struggle that never ends. Some find it a battle call to convert the heathens. There are many versions in between.

  320. purplefin: FGM is supposed to keep women faithful in marriage because they won’t like sex or become aroused.

  321. There are three things you never talk about according to Sammy Kershaw’s song… “Politics, Religion, and Her.”
    Besides, what will people do for the next four years should BHO win the White House? Religion? It’s all about how the holy book of your religion is interpreted by the the major entities within it.They form the policy.

  322. purplefinn

    The entire outer and sometimes inner genitalia are removed. This is to prevent the woman from feeling pleasure during intercourse. If she doesn’t ever feel pleasure, then she wont cheat= the (misplaced) logic behind the practice.

  323. Zee, How’s finkster? Did I get his name right?

  324. McCain supporter gets a “B” carved on her face by B0bot
    http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2008/10/23/carved-a-b-onto-her-face/

  325. how about we all just drop the whole religion topic since it isn’t going anywhere and talk about how we’re going to start protecting ourselves in light of the hideous crims on the McCain supporter?

    Frankly I’m worried and concerned for anyone McCain stuff after November 4 should Barry lose. Hell I’m concerned right now!

    Honestly folks, we could spend all day talking about what’s going on in other countries, or we can focus on the fact that right here in America, a girl just got attacked and had a letter carved into her face because of political ideology.

  326. miq2xu is a man. No religion in the world, past or present condones the removal of his penis.

  327. Lovely Mawm

    “Everything is easy. People make it hard for themselves.”

    That’s exactly the feeling after a good prayer. (I’d almost forgotten it).

    I agree with myiq, bigotry is wrong.

  328. Subjugation of women seems to predate organized religion, as far as I know.

  329. sorry!

    couldnt resist!

  330. Zee:

    re: Islam codifying FGM

    Where does it do that? In the Koran? The Hadith? Or in Sharia law?

    Sharia varies from country to country, and is not universal to all Moslems.

  331. gq — that was exactly my point when I reference the Koran, Torah, Lao Tzu — I wasn’t trying to exclude any one religion, those where the 3 other ones that popped into my head.

    Actually, if you study more religions, you’ll find that nearly every major religion has some version of the Golden Rule. Many Biblical scholars do not find the teachings of Jesus to be novel or only preached by one person. In fact, “love they neighbor” and apocalyptic rabbis were not uncommon at the time of Jesus.

  332. Murphy: Seemed accurate to me, why appologize?

  333. Sal:

    I just think people were happy to talk about something else for a change. Sorry if you felt left out. We’ll get back to slamming the Obots, don’t worry.

  334. gq — exactly right again:

    gqmartinez, on October 23rd, 2008 at 4:49 pm Said:

    Subjugation of women seems to predate organized religion, as far as I know.

    Women are the whore of the world.

  335. I notice myiq spells it “Moslems”. I wonder if he also pronounces encyclopedia as “en-sike-lo-paid-ee-a”.

    (Note: that was a “How I met Your Mother” reference)

  336. The Obama campaign announced today that Jay-Z and NBA star LeBron James will hold a “Last Chance for Change” concert in Cleveland next Wednesday.

    The announcement about Jay-Z comes a few days after he dedicated his 2003 song “99 Problems” to Sen John McCain, R-Ariz., and Alaska Gove. Sarah Palin.
    http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2008/10/after-dedicatin.html
    ***
    I agree with Sal the religion discussion isn’t going to get us to far. No way no how. But I am concerned with this young woman being scarred for life with a ‘B’. Gee, what song have they been singing since the primaries?????????

  337. Didn’t the news report say he scratched her face with a knife?

  338. gq, that may be so. hard to know.

    what we do know is that organized religion injected a divine justification for the oppression and abuse of women.

    it was just plain old subjugation until God came along and made it THE LAW.

  339. Was it really a “B”? And what was the B supposed to stand for: “B*tch”, “B*sh”, or “B*rack”?

  340. Great post, myiq

    I have to read upthread … so many comments

    Here’s an uplifting article I read today from the UK Times. I had been dismayed to hear about Sharia law over there.

  341. My post disappeared.

    Sigh.

  342. GQM:

    Actually, Moselms believe that the Koran is the actual word of God as given to His Prophet, Muhammed.

    It was originally not written down but was memorized and each verse (sura) begins with “Recite”

    The Hadith is the words and actions of Muhammed, and is of less authority than the Koran

    Sharia is an amalgamation of the Koran, Hadith, the teachings of various Imams and cultural practices.

    In Christianity it would be like the words of Jesus vs. the epistles of Paul vs. Papal Bulls

  343. jjmtacoma & looking for integrity, thanks for the explanation. Is this practice on the rise, lessening or neither?

  344. Sal–many conversations on this blog are difficult and challenging. I lurk all the time b/c I like to read the diverse comments. Religion is hard and I’m a Catholic and there is not an abundance of love here for my faith (shout out to Honora up thread!). But the bottom line is, my faith is rock solid. I have found that being a Christian and living a Christian life is extremely hard and I get an abudance of support from my church (Jesuit parish). I am challenged every week to do good and live a humble, loving and unselfish life. As long as I continue to strive to achieve those goals, I am not harming anyone and can only hope to be a good example to those who may be persuaded by the manner in which I live my life.

  345. WomanVoter,

    This video also helps to put that attack on her face into context.

    griffithinc,

    I hear that 😀 I’m not used to see so many folks here disagree on something with such a passion.

  346. business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/law/article5003008.ece

  347. Did you all notice that women are the only ones that seem to be physically attacked by these tiny-penised Obots?

    F*cking cowards.

  348. No religion in the world, past or present condones the removal of his penis.

    Praise be to Koresh!

  349. God didn’t make it “the law”. People did. We can blame “God” for anything and everything if we so desire. But when it comes down to it, it’s always people who are oppressing. Was the sexism and misogyny of this campaign religious based*? It was people using it as a weapon for personal gain.

    * OK, some could argue that Obamabots are practicing a religion where Obama is the messiah/God/prophet. But I’m not talking about that.

  350. Micki,

    I haven’t been blessed with oratory skills or a great ability to truly convey my relationship with God into words. I guess that’s why I feel more at ease with showing than telling.

  351. I meant in a good way re: Honora. It came out wrong in the writing.

  352. Sal, at least we have enough sense to disagree politely.

  353. murphy, on October 23rd, 2008 at 4:57 pm Said:

    gq, that may be so. hard to know.

    what we do know is that organized religion injected a divine justification for the oppression and abuse of women.

    it was just plain old subjugation until God came along and made it THE LAW.

    ***************
    I read it as “Until man came along and said God said it was law.” Needed a little more support than, “Well it’s always been done that way.”

  354. Micki, actually I think there are several practicing catholics here.

  355. Picture of the victim. Warning folks, there are bruises. I’m sorry to have to show you this.

  356. Sal,

    it says access denied?
    Do you think the OBAMA news FAN CLUB is going to cover this?

  357. Bumper sticker I saw once:

    “This world is big enough for more than one God.”

    Works for me. But I agree about the violence – religion is used as an excuse for violence all too often. Some posters have likened the Obama worship to a religion and I think we have started to see signs of that “religion” breeding violence.

    Just my humble opinion.

  358. Mawm–I know. They tend not to post as much during the discussions on abortion, from what I’ve read. That is where most of the Catholic non-love comes out, imo.

  359. Sorry folks,

    here’s the link to the article., the picture is embedded inside the article.

    http://hotair.com/archives/2008/10/23/mccain-supporter-maimed-for-her-politics-by-robber/

  360. Phew … I don’t have time to read all these comments. But on the topic of male circumcision. I have a close friend who had to be circumcised at the age of 21 as his foreskin was too tight. He said the procedure and recovery was horrific. But, worst of all, he says sex isn’t as good for him now due to loss of sensation.

    It’s not common practice to do circumcisions on infant boys in the UK and I think it’s becoming less common over here.

    Sorry if TMI

    😛

  361. The pedophilia committed by some Catholic priests is not permitted by any Christian teaching or church canon.

    The fact that it was covered-up does not mean that the church approved of the conduct.

    We can condemn pedophilia, the priests who committed it and the Catholic church for enabling and covering it up without saying that Catholicism as a religion believes in the practice.

  362. My first boyfriend was British. I met him in London. He was not circumcized. His father is a urologist and didn’t see a need. Repeat the apology re: TMI.

  363. Islam came about at a time during which the society it grew in, was so backward that Islam was progressive. In fact it gave women certain rights they did not have in Europe – where women were legally considred property and had no property or inheritance rights, generally.

    Society progressed and Islam became “backward” as far as rights etc.

    myiq is right. Turkey has been one of the most progressive Msulim nations, primarily because it separated church and state, and adopted a version of the Swiss law. I spent time in Turkey in the evry early 80’s and was surprised. Even in the small villages women had more rights than other women I had met from other middle eatern countries.

    However, as the AKP and other more religious parties began to gain ground one could see a noticeable difference. Where I’d rarely seen a headscarf in the early 80’s by the mid 90’s that had changed.

    The change is a result of the increasing fundamentalisation of Turkey, but also a symbol of resistance by many women, educated women, who want to wear the scarf and adhere to their religion. Turkey’s alws still protect their inheritance etc. as Sharia has not replaced the legal coda but that may change.

    Thus each country is different in the way it practices Islam.

    Herein lies the problem: human nature and behavior.

    When Hitler said he wanted the final solution for the Jews, their elimination, he did not specify how it should be done. Given all that room for creativity in devising methods the people involved from the lowliest policeman to the highest person came up with actions which varied in their degrees of brutality from a shot in the nback of the head to the most prolonged humiliation and torture possible.

    That’s how I see it with religion – the interpretation is up to the fairness, and humaness of the human being. So you can have a “progressive” tolerant Islam, and you can have Salafist Islam.
    You can have the decent Catholic priest we had who interpreted Catholic Canon Law, and yes Catholics do have laws that govern their lives, in a humane and fair manner.

    It’s the mindset that must be changed. If a human being believes something we consider inhumane or evil is true, he will try to find something which legitimizes his/her actions even if they are the most evil so that he/she can legitimize them.

  364. myiq,
    the koran was delivered in a series of messages, over time. I don’t see how that is inconsistent with what I said above. Much of the Bible was written as a response/reaction to current situations, and many religious scholars say the same about the Koran.

  365. “I am universally disdainful of organized religion, but not of those who practice it.”

    Yes….because disorganized religion is so much better. = )

  366. Not at all Micki, I wish I could say it as well as you, but I’m afraid that I take it very personally. After a resent trip to Ireland, where I saw the ruins of beautiful cathedrals destroyed by the ‘good’ English Christians to destroy the ‘bad’ Catholics , I became convinced that nothing is so clean cut. Of course, Cromwell and his army didn’t just destroy the cathedrals, they were usually filled with the Catholic villagers that had fled to them hoping to flee the armies. Nor were Catholics treated very well in early America. Note all the Catholic colleges built because Catholics were denied admission in ‘regular’ colleges. It goes on and on…. thanks.

  367. myiq

    It depends I think. Males here are circumcised at birth with a clamp? the process is supposed to be pinless?.

    (Muslim males, at least in Turkey, are circumcised later. There is a big feast with many gifts, but they always seemed to be in so much pain to me. Thus when the husband of a friend of mine insisted in having his son circumcised at birth so it wouldn’t hurt, his wife was quite happy. )

  368. I must admit some of the loveliest apologetics I’ve read are Islamic. And you have to love the idea of an Islamic scientist calculating the speed of heaven. It may not be very scientific but it’s most delightful.

  369. Not al bigots are crazy. There can be well reasoned bigots.

  370. Honora–I attend Old St. Joseph’s in Philadelphia. It was built in an alley that could not been seen from the streets. People could worship there even when religious tolerance did not include Catholics. Our church was founded b/c of the restrictions against practicing the faith in Maryland. If you are ever in town, please let me know.

  371. Micki- To set the record straight, I am a pro-choice Catholic. I believe that the Church can set Catholic policy, but I really resent the fact that they use the power of the Church to try to control non-Catholics. It is kinda like what someone upthread said, I think it is wrong for a religion to become the ‘law’ of any country. Catholics do wonderful things that are not acknowledged, but interfering with American politics is something that I am opposed to.

  372. Zee, Obama said we would get in the voting booth and suddenly we would have an epiphany that we just “had to vote for Barack”.

    If I get the epiphany, I’ll know they’ve been spiking the water with something.

  373. Honora–I am too, and I agree completely with everything you just said.

  374. I was making the comment about the anti-Catholic sentiment that comes out when we discuss abortion, in general.

  375. madamab, on October 23rd, 2008 at 4:59 pm Said:

    My post disappeared.

    Sigh.

    So did 2 of mine. Sal mentioned something about being worried now and I pasted in a story from The Hill.

    Then, I posted something about Joe Klein being on Fox.
    Then, they were gone.

    Maybe it’s a hint to me!

    C ya!!

  376. Mawm, on October 23rd, 2008 at 5:29 pm Said:

    Zee, Obama said we would get in the voting booth and suddenly we would have an epiphany that we just “had to vote for Barack”.

    **********

    Gee, I’ve never been afraid to get in the voting booth before.

  377. I edited my original post.

    I withdraw my comments about Zee

  378. Fredster:

    Comment moderation is automated.

    It’s not a hint to anyone

  379. I’m ready for a new post, who’s up next?

  380. New post!

  381. Micki- Great to meet you.

  382. At the present time my religion consists of praying that BO won’t become president.

  383. Zee-you won!!!!!!!

    And yes I did read that hypnotism thing-I wonder if that’s why he’s bought that half hour on tv???

  384. Zee:

    I notice you keep shifting away from the Mormon religion to Islam.

    My original post you responded to was about religious bigotry against Mormons. You said:

    you may be related to Mormons who are “good people” but the cult definitely deserves to crash and burn.
    […]
    . . . and the MORMONS, where the men are “gods” of their own planets in their ludicrous afterlife and women just part of a harem to pump out ghost babies to populate said planets, deserve all the ridicule they get and then some.

    “Tolerance” is bullshit in these cases.

    That has nothing to do with FGM or honor killing in SOME Islamic countries. We can condemn what those countries do without condemning an entire religion.

    Priestly pedophilia is a strawman because it is not part of Catholicism as practiced anywhere, ever.

  385. for whom it may concern, the reason members of the RCC were treated badly in America and their churches destroyed in Ireland is that protestants were tired of being hung burned and beheaded for disloyalty to the Pope. It was an ugly scene all around and THAT is why we have separation of church and state.

  386. myiq2xu, on October 23rd, 2008 at 5:33 pm Said:

    Fredster:

    Comment moderation is automated.

    It’s not a hint to anyone

    didn’t say I was put in moderation (I can see those). These 2 were there and then gone. Don’t we have some folk who can just pull a post? Can’t figure out why here one second, gone another.

  387. Damn. Sorry to have missed this thread…I’m a Kemetic revivalist myself…

  388. well, heck, I think it was Zee who said the other day that she didn’t see Hillary at the debate, but did see her corona, and I made a lame attempt at humor (I said “oy – Hillary’s drinking?”) and Zee seemed to get really angry and yelled at me – told me to get a dictionary and look up corona and, inexplicably, to look up ‘metaphor’ while I’m at it……sheeit, it was just a joke, honestly. yeah, I know if I’m so thin-skinned I shouldn’t be making stupid jokes……..

  389. oh fuzzy, I’m so glad!! I need to do a post with all those pictures, I have so many good ones of her. and Bill. I saw Hill in person twice and Bill once. I got some really great pics.

  390. I saw bill on the back of a pickup truck 🙂 he shook my hand and signed my hillary sign. I gave it to my mother in law because she loves him so much..

  391. Scott McClellan? Who the eff even remembers that little ogre much less cares what he thinks? BO is really scraping the bottom of the barrel with endorsements.

  392. The problem with religious “tolerence” is that so many religions have misogynistic roots that carry over to the present. Others are just blatently misogynistic. People who care about equality have to come to terms with this fact and act accordingly.

    It’s sort of like screaming fire in a movie theater. Some speech is regulated because of the impact it has on others. Not all speech is allowed, even though “free speech” is afforded under the 1st amendent of the Constitution. Religion has to be regulated as well. We cannot condone things like marrying off little girls into slavery, female castration, honor killings, and the overall cast system or gender apartide that so many religions and cultures force women to live under. It is not bigotted to acknowledge reality and refuse to sanction oppression under the banner of religious freedom.

    I refuse to condone or tolerate misogyny!!! There has to be constraints on the misogynistic practices of those religions who engage in them in order to protect women and girls from the brutal practices of so many including mormans and musilims, as well as others.

    We shouldn’t allow political correctness to go amuck!! When rejecting bigotry is twisted into being bigotted, the height of hypocracy has been reached.

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