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Friday: Assume the position

Kiss your ass goodbye

Kiss your ass goodbye

Brace yourselves, Conflucians.  Today could be very scary.  The markets closed down sharply in the last minutes of trading last night and today is looking hairy as well.  For those of you who want to follow along at home, I recommend Planet Money from NPR and This American Life.  The correspondents are talking to the movers and shakers on a daily basis and summarize what’s going on right after the markets close. They break it down into easily digestible chunks for those of us who prefer to avoid this stuff like the plague.

So, what *is* going on?  Well, I will leave it to Dakinikat to give us the professional answer but here is how Planet Money describes it.  A lot of the same things that happened at the start of The Great Depression are happening now.  That is, during the years 1929-1932, there were similar problems with bank failures and credit freezes and loss of the commercial paper market.  And treasuries and reserves around the world did what they could to fix the problem, without much success.  After 1932, the FDR administration started making some major changes, like guaranteeing depositors’ money with the FDIC, and a number of other fixes that slowly but surely brought us back to solvency.  It took a world war to finally get us back on our feet.  We live in the internet age now though so what took four years to experience back then when the financial system was falling apart is happening now in the compressed time frame of 3 weeks.  The good news is that with the changes FDR made during the Great Depression and since then, Ben Bernanke is able to intervene in ways that were not available to the Hoover administration. Also, there are some automatic actions.  The markets themselves have a panic switch that was instituted after the collapse of 1987.  The question is will all of this intervention be enough?

The problem is the Fed is starting to run out of options.  The government is buying assets of failed institutions, it stepped in to fill the gap of the commercial paper market to get credit flowing again and now it is looking to recapitalize and take ownership of some banks.  These are all the right things to do but the problem is still somewhat intractable.  The instruments that got us into the mess are so complicated and so many players are involved that the whole world is trembling from them.

In the midst of all of this, the Planet Money people have discovered a mystery.  Last week when the Senate was debating the Paulson bailout bill, someone in the senate slipped in a provision that allowed for the recapitalization of the banks.  Now, I am no financial expert, as anyone who knows me can tell you, so I am not sure what all of it means but I think what is being done is that the US government now has the option to own portions of the banks.  The mystery is in how the provision got slipped into the bill because this is apparently the right thing to do and the banks themselves were dead set against it. The astonishing thing is that the Senate did the right thing, almost in spite of itself, and snuck this provision into the bill without the Bank lobby either knowing about it or being able to do anything about it.  It’s like one of those nasty little provisions that have happened in the past that we didn’t like much, like the one that allowed the president to fire US Attorneys at will that was slipped into  the Patriot Act.  Except that this one works in our favor.

Who did it?  No one knows.  Scratch that.  No one is taking credit for it yet.  I think we can be pretty confident that it wasn’t one of the presidential nominees because they would be strutting around to every media outlet they could find to crow about it.

Well, no matter what happened, it was the right thing to do but that doesn’t mean we’re out of the woods.  The financial system is international and so is the spreading problem.  The solution is also going to have to be international in scope.  There will be some big meetings going on in Washington this weekend and no doubt the various members of the G7 are going to want to strangle George Bush and the other players that got us into this mess.  But if there is too much tension and acrimony, they may not hammer out a deal.  So, let’s hope that everyone uses their words and not their hands, and figures out how we get out of this.

In the meantime:

293 Responses

  1. A few days ago, Cramer predicted that the Dow would hit 8000. Seems almost optomistic now.

  2. Yeah, well, the Planet Money people say don’t listen to Cramer. It seems like he is advising people to sell their stock as well.

  3. Is Planet Money perhaps suggesting a self-fulfilling prophecy?

  4. And yet people want to elect Obama, a man with no experience. What has the US come to.

  5. chatblu: Well, that’s one interpretation. But what they are also saying is that if you sell now, you are selling low and will be buying back high. This is a correction, albeit a pretty significant one. Nevertheless, you don’t want to be selling stocks when things are sliding downward this rapidly. I guess it would depend on how close you are to retirement. Since I am still many years away, I’ll just hang onto what I’ve got. When the market reaches the stabiliization level, I’m hoping the fund managers in my various 401K allocations will see it as an opportunity to snap up some bargains.
    Of course, if this is how you make your money or if you are ready to retire, this looks pretty devastating.

  6. I don’t have a job right now, but my main concern is how will the economy impact the election.

    Selfish of me, eh?

    I worked for an investment management company until August. I got a call the other night from a co-worket who had been with the company twenty years. They just fired him. He is the nicest guy you could ever meet, and he gave his all to the firm. He’s taking it very personally. All I can do is be a good friend.

  7. Ana: We’ve been saying this all year. We *knew* we were headed for a financial disaster for some time now. It’s why the Des Moines Register endorsed Hillary Clinton last year. They said the country is going to need a FDR not a JFK. But the blogger boyz were drunk on power and newly found prestige and they shoved Obama down our throats. And you know what? I don’t think any of them even *like* Obama, not really. I think they just got it into their heads that they wouldn’t have Hillary under any circumstances.
    Voile!

  8. Arabella: Who knows? You may have a chance to work for Uncle Sam.

  9. I don’t think the position in the picture is the one most of us will be assuming.

    The operative term is “BOHICA”

  10. A colleague who heads a very successful financial fund made an offhand comment to me last week, “This looks an awful lot like financial terrorism – too well constructed.”
    I say follow the money – go backwards -where is BO actually getting all of his funding. It can’t be from the “simple donations” as they proport.
    We only have two weeks folks – need to do more and faster digging.

  11. Agree with you riverdaughter, I am just really concerned that this man will get elected. It’s the last thing we need right now, I will take the patriot over the shady relationships, no experience man, any day.

  12. riverdaughter – I’ll work for Uncle Sam, but I don’t want to be part of a work brigade for Obama. I can’t see myself as part of a blue-jacketed cadre marching into the cul-de-sacs to reeducate the yuppies.

  13. Arabella, I’m with you.

    People keep saying that a bad economy favors the Democrats but the Democratic nominee doesn’t have the experience or the judgment to fix this mess. And he chose a VP running mate with close ties to the predatory credit card industry. So if people are so dim that they’re going to vote Democratic just because, uh, well, that’s what you do when the economy sucks then we’re in for an even bigger hurt. So, I’m with you. I wish this had happened either sooner or later, but not 4 weeks out from election day.

  14. gxm17, that’s because they are looking at the democrats and are thinking of Bill Clinton, not realizing that Obama is not Bill Clinton, and will not govern like he did.

  15. This all feels phony to me. I don’t understand finance at this level, but is it possible that a small group of really rich people are making this situation worse in order to buy up the whole world?

  16. I just don’t want Obama to win.

  17. Jeralyn is creaming her jeans cuz the “Troopergate” report is due today.

    I hope it lives up to her expectations

  18. Mawm:

    They aren’t trying to buy the whole world.

    Just the good parts, and a controlling interest in the rest.

  19. I’m thinking from what I hear that placing all of the blame on GWB is a very inaccurate statement.

    The Democrats pushing fraudulent loans seems to be a main culprit.

    Ayers, Socialism, Marxism, Obama, Barney Frank, Pelosi, Reid, Chris Dodd, F&F, ACORN, a landslide for Democrats in the nick of time – now the financial power brokers are Russia (who just ‘distracted’ us with Georgia), Middle East, China, Baghdad ❓

    We are being taken out and taken down from the inside, a financial terrorist hit …………………….

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  20. Ana, yep, the DNC, the MSM and the kool-aid drinkers kicked Hillary (and Bill) Clinton to the curb and gave us the empty suit with the padded resume. Brilliant move, einsteins! Now we’re all f*cked.

  21. What did I say to trigger Spammy?

    Oops! I got it:

    Mawm:

    They aren’t trying to buy the whole world.

    Just the good parts, and a contr*lling interest in the rest.

    We can’t say t-r-o-l-l for some reason.

    I wish someone would fix that

  22. joanelle: I love a good conspiracy theory and I’m not saying that you’re wrong. The timing is suspicious. It’s just that maybe things aren’t turning out like they conspiracists planned. It’s looking like a REAL crisis now. Go see the front page of the NYTimes if you don’t believe me. We knew that tne meltdown was coming but a couple of weeks ago it looked more like a controlled burn. Now, it looks like an out of control forest fire. This is a honest to goodness problem now. We can’t stick our fingers in our ears and sing la la-la.

  23. Well I am going to vote, and it is for McCain, although he needs to start showing some fight. He needs to go after Obama they way Palin is going, and hype up his experience, explain that in turmoil the last thing we need is an untested president.

  24. And I work at a bank, people are going crazy over there over this whole situation.

  25. I never like to say “we’re all f*cked” because that has a negative impact on my ability to act constructively.

    But some people find such statements (waf) energizing. Whatever works for you.

  26. check this out

  27. Mawm, I have the same creepy feeling. As we were watching the news on TV last night my husband bemoaned the fact that we can’t trust anyone any more. That’s the sad state of our disinformation age. Who knows if what we are being told is truth or fiction.

  28. Mawm, Yes. The Shock Doctrine and all that. The scare language coming out of Obama’s mouth is unprecedented. We were long overdue for a correction. Housing was crazy or rather still is. The fallout is that needed sectors such as ag and energy are running into real problems with credit that potentially could really cut production leading to even more problems. It is an ever widening circle. It will take a while before anyone wants to risk what they have left into anything.

  29. I hope Bush and his ease-dropping ultimately has this all on tape.

    McCain needs to stop being coy. Sarah needs to be carrying an AK47 and names need to be named. It is time for Resignations and Indictments.

    Punishment, Retribution and Reform 2008 – NOW!

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  30. Arabella, my constructive action is to vote for McCain. You can have your fetish and I’ll have mine. 🙂

    But in all serious the school marm bit doesn’t play well with me so leave it for others please. Sorry to be OT but this site doesn’t allow private messages.

  31. RD:

    I disagree. There is no problem so big it can not be run away from.

    La-la-la-la

  32. Who can we trust? No one it appears.

    Here’s a cartoon I found over at Cannonfire that also shows where blame also belongs.

    It may be fun and easy to blame government for all our ills but some of us, many of us, need to take a good long look in the mirror.

    http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2008/10/09/boll/

    I don’t usually link to salon since I find them repulsive but this is an unusual cartoon from them since it isn’t making fun of or attacking Sarah Palin. Unexpected you might say.

  33. You know what’s mind-blowing? This time last year I was so excited that FINALLY we would get a chance to see America back on the right track. I was so hopeful that the long bush year nightmare would finally be over.
    Now I am so afraid. It’s like falling out of an airplane and finding out the parachute won’t deploy.

  34. I disagree that central banks did what they could to stop the meltdown that caused the Great Depression. In fact the crash came in ’29 and governments just stood by. FDR was not in office at the time so it was a few years before he could intervene. And, unlike now, they response was not an international one.

    Bernankes’ doctoral dissertation was on the causes of the Great Depression. His thesis was that it was the financial meltdown in ’29, not trade barriers and other things that are often blamed, that was at the root of the problem.

    The difference this time around is that banks around the world are acting much more quickly. The biggest problem in the short term is that banks are so afraid of loaning to each other (not knowing who is solvent) that all loans are freezing up. That makes it hard for businesses to cover routine shortfalls and conduct day to day transactions. For example, businesses are often short at payroll time because they are waiting for big customers to pay bills. This is entirely routine. Without loans to bridge the gap they can’t even pay workers.

    The decision by the British and now our government to inject capital directly into the banking system will go a long way toward fixing this short term problem.

    But McCain is right that we also need to address mortgages, too, because that crisis is not over. Many more mortgages are set to default in the coming months. McCain’s proposal to have the government help homeowners who can afford it, refinance with reasonable mortgage terms is a reasonable approach. Obama says it is too expensive (but not the bailout for those at the top) because McCain does not want to write down home values to their current level. However, if we do that, it cements the crash in the housing market. In many markets home values are now artificially low. If they are valued reasonably, the government will stand to eventually make money when the market stabilizes. FDR did this with the HOLC and the government eventually made money. This approach helps ordinary citizens as well as entire communities, too.

    Obama seems to have no plan too address the ongoing disaster of mortgage defaults.

  35. Looks like today is a good internet blackout day for me, except as it applies to my job search.

  36. When I look at the financial news I go into shock. Ohh, I expected a meltdown, but not a complete and utter tsunami. I want Hillary in charge so badly!

    In the meantime, I’ve been reduced from being ‘comfortable’ but on a fixed income, to a pauper. I’m looking at finding a job after being a student for 10 years. Hopefully they will be hiring newly minted archaeologists. HAHAHAHAHA. On the other hand, I have a small farm and a herd of milk goats; I can grow my own food.

    In other, perhaps more encouraging news, I’m beginning to be harassed by Obots through email. Why encouraging? Because I live in Western WA… glassy eyed Obot territory. I don’t know how they got my email, probably from the local dem party (I was a county delegate for Hillary. You’d think they’d be smarter than that). Why send out all these pleas to use personal money to go travel for Obama? And to help out in any way possible? A nd all these teasers about meeting my local politicians and big guns like the Governor to go get me to phone bank? Maybe it’s normal policy, but I sure don’t remember it being like this before. Could internal numbers be saying something different about WA state to the Omachine?

  37. votermom:

    At least you got a parachute!

    I got a seat cushion that works as a floatation device

  38. McCain and Palin on Hannity last night, and Hannity asked McCain what people’s advice to him was, and he said something like, “People keep telling me to have fun, so that’s what I’m doing is having fun”. I looked at Gary and said “whoa, he needs to drop the talk about having fun. He needs to be in pain with the rest of us, or at least act like it”. He needs to take a page from Clinton’s book, “I feel your pain”.

  39. gxm17 – Oops, sorry. Didn’t mean to offend you. I am in a bad, bad situation right now and I have to start every day with a pep-talk or I wouldn’t get out of bed! I didn’t mean to be critical of anybody, especially not of you.

  40. myiq — oh it’s a seat cushion! No wonder it won’t deploy! D’oh!

  41. myiq – I guess the days of the MSM and Congress making fun of Bush on Vacation and Looking for a Place to land after we were hit on 9/11 will not be nearly as funny as Congress heading off for vacation and campaigning for the job they already failed miserably at.

    La, La, La, La, La, La ………………………….

    Wow, wish I was going to be able to afford electricity and popcorn to see that parody on SNL !

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  42. Well Bush can always declare a state of emergency and suspend the elections, although I don’t know if that is a good thing or a bad thing.

    Who is better Bush or Obama.

    That is scary.

  43. Sima – Were you on any activist lists for the Democratic Party? I thought MA was a gimme for Obama. I went to college in Boston and I have relatives in Holyoke, so I realize that Western MA is quite different from the HUB. Wonder why Obama is coming after you folks.

  44. Now the thought of an Obama presidency to some people could have an adverse effect and bring hordes of people who find the man terrifying to the polls, to vote, that otherwise would have stayed home.

  45. Bush won’t suspend the elections. He probably wants to get out of town as fast as possible. He will go down in history as the worst president ever.

  46. I don’t know Arabella I have heard for months that something was going to happen, that would force a suspension. Of course I always thought it would be a terrorist attack.

  47. katy, Let Obama spend as much of those foreign donations as possible in the US, that’s what I say!
    (Buying national primetime ads — are those polls not as favorable to him after all?)

  48. Arabella, I think you are right. We were watching a clip of an interview he had yesterday. He was seated while he answered, and we could see him moving his legs around like he was really agitated, and I remarked that he looked like he really wanted to get out of there.

    Can I go back to the ranch and clear brush now?

  49. Arabella: Nope, I’m not on any of those lists. It’s very strange. I donated, a long time ago, to John Edwards, but I never got any emails from him., ever. And I donated to Hillary, but I’ve never received Obot emails through her (I can tell by the email used).

    I think this one must come from either somewhere on the net (I was a member of the great orange crappile for a while) or from the local congressional district dems. I just find it really weird that they signed me up for Oblahma’s activist list, for his political action list and for his website list, without asking me!

    It’s Western WA where I am, not MA. Heart of Obot territory around Seattle. SUPER depressing here, right now, almost all my friends have drunk the Koolaid, I’ve found out that a few of my male friends are closet sexists, and I’m not speaking to half the people in my family.

  50. Where’s my daily Sarah Palin fix? She’s the only one who cheers me up these days. I think I may be addicted …

  51. I wonder if people will fault Obama for spending 4x the amount of money this election than any other candidate.

  52. This has been a billion dollar election

  53. Well I am pissed a McCain, all this ammunition and he isn’t using it. Blame the democrats for crying out loud. Tell the truth. He needs to fight and stop acting like he already lost.

  54. Sima – Western WA, not MA. my bad!

    I haven’t been bothered AT ALL by Obama. I never participated at the orange place. Maybe the two facts are connected and maybe they are not.

    It is strange that they registered you on the activist list.

  55. RD – I agree fully with you – my colleague just sent this to me: “This country is making a huge mistake with Obama from which we may never be able to recover. You should share your thoughts with Hannity to be used on his show. He is airing a show on Obama on Sunday night at 10 that people are telling me is a must watch.

    I don’t think it is an accident that the global markets are falling apart like they are.
    I believe that this was a planned initiative that has gone haywire. I believe that it was targetted at the USA but those planning it did not see the further implications and it has now taken on a life of its own.
    It’s a house of cards.

  56. Mawm: No, I think people will call Obama patriotic for pumping so much campaign money into the economy. (snark)

  57. I almost feel sorry for Dubya. He was selected too, and he’s been letting his lobbyist friends write the laws, but I bet he never expected to be left holding the bag like this. A petty man in over his head, driving us all over the cliff.

  58. No plan to address the mortgage crisis and no plan for the credit card crisis.

    Governments are intervening quicker, but people are in panic mode. This is an extensive problem where easy money with easy credit and unregulated credit default swaps with borrowed money is playing its ugly hand.

    My biggest concern is that we are throwing allot of money into this with it being managed by the idiots who are a big part of the problem.

    We are trying to solve this crisis in a similar position of post WWI Germany. A heavily debt burdened government with a total loss of a production and manufacturing base.

    During the Depression of the 20’s and 30’s we still had a manufacturing base. We could produce our way out of it. WWII with the increased demands for production and manufacturing actually helped the economic recovery as well as win the war. We simply out produced everyone in the world. Unfortunately our huge military expenditures on these two current wars have not done anything for our economy and actually hurt it. We no longer have the manufacturing base to stimulate our economy with these increased expenditures. The factories just aren’t there to be started up again.

  59. Help! I’m in moderation with a bunch of kids singing Obama praise songs at me!

  60. Slow blog day – it feels like a Sunday

  61. Yea, figures it’s a slow day. The one day I’m up earlier enough (or rather late enough) to actually participate! Heh.

    The other day I got a phone call from someone asking me to take them on as farm labor in return for a place to live. I’ve had this farm for 15 years and never had that happen. I think it’s another sign of the times.

  62. after reading naomi klein shock doctorine last year I don’t trust our government one. The democrats have been all too happy to profit from this demise that they caused, I thiink they did it on purpose because with bush approval raitings so far i nthe tank they knew the american public would blame the republicans. One time i believe democrats were above the fray of corruption but thisyear they ahve taught me that they are capable of some of the most ungodly behavior, and it will be a cold day in hell before i ever vote for somone just because they are a democrat again. They have proven themselves grossly depraved and would have made their conferderate ancestors proud.

  63. woa -what happened to my little kid?

  64. Before bashing McCain for not fighting try to remember that whenever he or Governor Palin dares to say a word against the media’s darling he is attacked on every channel except FOX and even sometimes there are going “negative”. Or on the all obama all the time network formerly misnamed MSNBC they are called racists.

    Even when the crowd gets riled up, as they did in my home state of Wisconsin yesterday, they are portrayed as a mob ala Dickerson @ Slate. http://www.slate.com/id/2201951/
    Evidently in Mr. Dickerson’s narrow little mind voters that disagree with his viewpoint and speak up are a “mob”. Of course Mr. Dickerson has no problem with the thuggish behavior of the Obamacrats. Naturally.

    Oh and I live just a ways south of Waukesha and wasn’t there but I would have loved to at least participated in the one finger salute of the press bus.
    Cause hating the press isn’t just for Republicans any more.

  65. Arabella,

    I think Sima said she lives in Western Washington state, not Western MA.

    I’m sorry you are still jobless. I’m really rooting for you. It has to be tough to get up every day and keep at it. I’m impressed that you are generally so bright and cheery.

    I’m about ready to pull the covers over my head and shut out the outside world myself. Or maybe sit and watch I Love Lucy reruns for days on end. I don’t know what to think anymore. The financial meltdown is scary enough, but the idea that people are going to vote for Obama because of it makes me feel like the end of the world is nigh.

  66. Flashback to January 2008–The “Not Invested” Weasel Obama on the 60’s (and More)

    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/2008/10/10/flashback-to-january-2008-listen-to-obama-on-the-60s-and-more/

    And listen to his crap on the mortgage crisis..blaming everyone EXCEPT…guess..

  67. joanelle, on October 10th, 2008 at 8:31 am Said:

    A colleague who heads a very successful financial fund made an offhand comment to me last week, “This looks an awful lot like financial terrorism – too well constructed.”

    Looking at how nicely it all comes together for Obama and knowing Obama’s character and that of his cronies, it would not surprise me if there is a hidden story here. Obama is acting like he expected this — you know the calm, cool, and collected talking points his minions throw around. Time is too short to investigate anything.

  68. Look the way I see it, is that this might actually energize people to vote against Obama. It might get them mad, mad as hell, and that’s what we need right now.

    What I want is for McCain to show some fight here. Palin is doing her part, but McCain has to start acting like the candidate he was, that one his nomination. He has to take it to Obama, like he took it to Romney.

  69. FYI

    WASHINGTON – Already advertising at record levels, Barack Obama has scheduled a half-hour commercial for prime time on Oct. 29, six days before Election Day.

    Obama campaign officials said the campaign had secured a 30-minute block of time at 8 p.m. on CBS and NBC. CBS already was juggling its lineup to accommodate the Democratic presidential candidate, moving back an episode of “The New Adventures of Old Christine.”

    Such a vast purchase of commercial time is a multimillion-dollar expense, but Obama has been spending dramatically on ads, overshadowing rival John McCain and the Republican National Committee.

  70. OT — non-scientific survey, I know, but on my way into work today (I drive through a long residential street that has heavy traffic) the McCain signs outnumbered the Obama signs 2-1. All the McCain signs were “new” all the Obama signs have been there for at least the last month. It gives me hope that people aren’t as stupid as the msm keeps telling us they are.

  71. PM317 – that’s exactly what it is!!!

    FINANCIAL TERRORISM and BLACKMAIL.

    Vote for the Democrat or fall into a vortex of financial doom.

  72. OT: What do you think will be in “troopergate”?

  73. AAAGal — do you really think anyone but the heavy kool-aid drinkers will tune in to watch Obama for 30 minutes? People don’t watch the State of the Union when the REAL President of the United States of America is talking, I seriously doubt anyone will want to watch the pretender to the throne.

  74. dow dropped 650 points in first 5 mintues to below 8000… has since rebounded to be down JUST 460 pts

  75. I think that media buy could have a big negative impact. Really. People have had enough. The more they see, the less they like.

    I think we’ll see an upswing for JohnnyMac.

  76. do you really think anyone but the heavy kool-aid drinkers will tune in to watch Obama for 30 minutes?

    OMG — it’s a 30 min block? That’s hilarious.
    Is it going to have subliminal messages in it too, I wonder, and hypnotically whirling O logos. LOL.
    Good for Fox saying they are too booked to accommodate it.

  77. While we know which one is playing the role of Obama, who is behind the wolves character??????

  78. angienc,

    I am just hope that he sits in front of the camera with a pretend ‘seal’ of the United States.

    Why would he spend this money when the economy is so bad? They are wondering if he will go on Fox.

    I wish things like this would resonate with people and they would see Obama for the pompous ass he is.

  79. everyone needs to pray for the world series to go at least 6 games…. apparently, game 6 would be on OCT 29, and would be a very big draw

  80. Hearing stuff like this makes me glad I don’t have a TV. I find this 30 minute buy to be both stupid and gluttonous. The economy’s tanking and we are supposed to want to listen to wonder-candidate blather?

    Bleh. I’d rather watch Gilligan’s Island reruns.

  81. dow now down just 100…. drops 650 to open and rebounds 550…. that’s what i call volatility…..

  82. If you’re in the market, heed RD – don’t sell unless you absolutely have to – it’s kind of like losing weight – if you weigh yourself every day (or more) you’ll never succeed – you need to just follow a plan. Hopefully you are working with a professional and not investing on your own (unless you are a financial professional)

  83. I hear that it is commercial free. No advertisements. WTF?

  84. According to the MSM there has been a massive shift towards Obama in the past few weeks.

    Except for their stories and polls, I see no evidence of it.

    No reason for it either.

    I do see some PUMAs getting intimidated by the Obama Haka, but that’s it.

  85. All along I have said the Stock Market would crash if Obama wins with all of his Capital Gains tax BS, looks like it might only need to roll over and tap it’s head to commit suicide.

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  86. tpt/ny, on October 10th, 2008 at 6:14 am (from the previous thread)

    hey tpt, I don’t think I’ll be able to make it to LI tonight just to watch the debate. I haven’t been keeping up with the debates because I no longer care about the election or what either of these morons have to say. Also, I plan to go on the bus to Scranton, PA tomorrow morning so I’ll need a good night’s sleep. Hope to see some of you tomorrow morning.

  87. Bush will be addressing the nation shortly — will the market go up or down after he talks?

  88. When Bush took office I was on my way… if I spent wisely and lived frugally, I’d not have to work for a wage again. Since then the only asset that has appreciated is my property. My ‘worth’ has been dropped by over 70%, first in the crash after Bush took office and now this one.

    I’m still hanging on to what I’ve got. Maybe I can retire on it again, some day.

  89. kenoshaMarge, remember when the two punks held up an “iron my shirt” sign at a Hillary rally, and the pundit talk was about whether Hillary’s candidacy could overcome the sexism, not how terrible the sexist punks were. I remember screaming at the TV because they were always making it Hillary’s fault no matter what happened.

  90. I have enough money to live comfortably for the rest of my life, but only if I die by 3:30 p.m. this Sunday.

  91. All this depression talk is further fueling the debacle taking place on wall street. We are in a bear market and there is a good chance at a recession. The people that got us here have already bailed out. That is the Hedge funds and to some degree yesterday the “shorts” buyers and sellers. The head of the SEC must be suffering from a brain injury. This activity was suspended for two weeks and it expired on the close of Wednesday’s business. It should have been renewed in the opinion of many on Wall street. MCCain is suffering in the polls as a result. Why they think Obama is the answer is beyond belief.

  92. To madamab and those who responded to Palomino’s post several days ago, he has offered an apology:
    http://palomino-paddock.blogspot.com/2008/10/apologia.html
    I enjoy Palomino’s blog. I just wish that some of these “non-PUMA”, anti-Obama Clintonites would RESPECT the decisions made by some of us to vote for McCain or a third-party candidate. I don’t think staying at home to protest Obama is that much of a difference from some of us who have chosen to actually go to the polls to vote against Obama but ALSO vote for downticket Democrats.

    Riverdaughter, I think your post this morning PROVES that we live in a reality based community FULLY AWARE of the financial crisis at hand and how this has hurt McCain.

    I also stand by Riverdaughter that she has NEVER posted r*acist propaganda on this site nor do I believe that discussing ACORN, Reverend Wright, Ayers, or Rezko is R_A_C_I_S_T. Maybe some of these “non-PUMA” anti-Obama Clintonites don’t feel the need to dirty their hands and get involved with taking down Obama. Sorry, but some of us like to go all the way in our mission to fully expose Obama’s character since some of us have in fact decided to use our power to help elect McCain or support a third-party candidate.

    Also, NOQUARTER is not an official PUMA site if that is what they are looking to for an example. That site is run by a Republican who voted for Hillary and even though I enjoy the conspiracy theories at NoQuarter, I fully expected Larry and SusanUnPC to campaign for McCain the moment hillary dropped out of the race. If some of you didn’t expect that, you are very naive.
    I accept Palomino’s apology and will continue to go to his site. But I’m sick of the holier-than-thou tone that has taken over sites like Palomino and Anglachel. I think Falstaff has continued to remain respectful to our cause while fully expecting an Obama victory. Thank you to Falstaff for providing excellent analysis without dissing PUMAs.

    Okay, rant over. Have a great day everyone.

  93. Except for their stories and polls, I see no evidence of it.

    myiq: it depends on what polls they are looking at too. Yesterday Zogby had them at 48-45. Four other polls are within the same range, except for Gallup, which is an outlier. All this hysteria about the polls is overblown, especially with the weighted samples. They are trying to create the reality by pushing the perception.

  94. Is Bush supposed to speak? FOX has BO on Live in Ohio. He is holding an “American Jobs Tour in OH.” Of course I have him on mute. Please tell me we are not going to have to listen (but I won’t) to this arrogant blowhard for years.

  95. fif, have him on mute too. I’ll have Bush on mute too. I can’t bear to listen to either of them.
    (Just have my tv on in cae Gov Palin comes on. Pretty please. I need my SP fix)

  96. myiq – The market is doing a small rally. I think you have an extra hour and 13 minutes.

    Enjoy!

  97. Oh God, that jerk Bill Burton is on FOX dissembling for Obama again.

    Mute.

  98. The last thing I want to see is Obama and his toilet warmer Obamabots.

  99. I’m really disgusted with these bloggers who criticize The Confluence for “recycling right-wing tropes” as if that is definitive and final.

    What is the trope and why is it wrong?

    That’s the same bullshit Mandos was pulling.

  100. When did FOX news begin to have Obama cheerleaders?
    Do the Repugs actually want Obama to win so he can deal with the sh*tpile awaiting the next president?
    Maybe this is their plan to take down Obama then win over the electorate for the next 8-16 years starting in 2012?

  101. votermom: Isn’t it ridiculous? I hardly turn on the TV anymore, except to watch old comedies to take my mind off all this drama, or to watch a bit of Lou Dobbs, Hannity (while muting Colmes), or Greta. I have it on right now too but leave the mute on the whole time. Next, it will go off if there’s no sign of someone I can bear listening to for five minutes.

  102. “This looks an awful lot like financial terrorism – too well constructed.”

    It is October – this is our surprise?

    The ad buy is telling – ANYONE stupid enough to think BZero is a Dem and can have a positive effect on our encomony with NO plan NO policy NO experience nor any character is smoking something.

    The American public in greater part is terrified by BZero. The media and the polls are not going to be shown to reflect that because of the backers……………….
    JMO

  103. Tag line on bottom of FOX screen: “Obama team working on new ideas to deal with economic crisis.”

    uh oh. I feel a new speech coming on.

  104. We have new ideas. McCain’s got ideas. Hillary’s got idea. Bush has got ideas. BO’s had 3 or 4 weeks to come up with an idea. What’s taking him so long?

  105. The other slam at us is that we are ignoring reality by not conceding that Obama has already won.

    The election is Nov. 4th, and until then there is no “reality” only polls and perceptions.

  106. What’s taking him so long?

    Talking to 300 advisors and his buddy “Warren” takes time. Besides, he needs lots of time to “think about it” in between his gym workouts. Next thing you know, he’ll be riding around in a pick-up and clearing brush on a ranch.

  107. BARACK EXPOsED

    check this out -newt is behind it, not read it yet, but sounds agressive

    http://www.humanevents.com/

  108. The other slam at us is that we are ignoring reality by not conceding that Obama has already won.

    I don’t understand why you guys even read these other sites. Who the hell cares what these people think? Do they have any kind of special insight that we don’t have? I don’t think so. I don’t need their approval or bullying.

  109. You have to wonder why the 30 minute tv spot buy from Sen. Obama. If everything is going his way, why spend the money?

  110. Susan Estrich just said on FOX that “looking at the numbers every morning, this is not going to be a close election. The key states are drifting away from McCain.”

    Am I missing something here? Aren’t most of the polls close enough with margin of error and weighting taken into consideration?

    Here comes Bush…doing his best John Wayne walk.

  111. fif, We’ve been taping old episodes of House and watching that. The effect is that I saw my 7yo was walking around leaning on a stick. When I asked her what she was doing she said “I’m Dr. House”

  112. myiq, you must have some sort of masochistic thing going as much as you tr0ll those sites. Gary does the same thing. I can’t take it. I have to shun them.

  113. i tell you why Bo spends the money on a 30 min spot – he buys the media’s services up to Nov – no Rezko, ACORN, etc…disguised bribe!

  114. chatblu – great point!

  115. It’s typical Obot tactics. Next they’ll be saying McCain should just quit now for the greater good.

  116. I agree that a half-hour Barry commercial would do more harm that good…for Barry! I can’t take 10 seconds! lol!

    I believe this crisis is the Oct surprise, but it’s crafted to help Barry. Everything real about it was there for some time already…why now the melt down? Because huge bonds were timed to end now and the Bush administration and the Dem congress are screaming about it….that would set off even a strong market, much less our house of cards .Any time Bush and the Dems look like they know what they are doing, and act, they set it up whatever is going on. If this was real, IMO Bush would have high tailed to Cheyenne Mountain to hide out . As I have posted elsewhere, if the Bush wing of the GOP were for McCain, IMO, the press would be pimping the third bin Laden tape and several orange alerts already….. But we see the Bush wing working with the current Dems like never before.

    It’s interesting as RD pointed out, somebody in the Senate slipped in a provision that allowed for the recapitalization of the banks …and own part of the banks! That is, getting something for our money??! What a concept! No wonder the banks didn’t want it! I’m not saying it was Hillary, because we don’t know…..but for the life of me, I can’t imagine who else in the Senate would know enough , .or even care enough to do that.

  117. fif, Susan Estrich is a Democrat therefore an Obama supporter. Do you notice that the only people saying it’s over for Obama are people who hope that Obama wins?

  118. sorry, over for McCain

  119. Did anyone see the Hannity interview of McCain and Cindy McCain on their jet? Cindy McCain was talking about her son and then said “and our adopted son here”. As the camera panned to the right, they showed Lindsey Graham seated next to Cindy. Gary and I laughed saying, “yeah their adopted gay son”.

  120. Drop in Stock market driven by uncertainty and fear. A deeply unsettling period for the American people.

    The US government is acting, and will continue to act to resolve this crisis and restore stability to our market. We are a nation of resources and will use the many tools we have.

    He explains the housing crisis as the root of the problem. Anxiety can lead to anxiety. The federal govt. has a comprehensive strategy. We can solve this crisis and we will.

    Lack of liquidity. Rate cuts will free up system. Support for commercial paper market to help frozen credit markets.

    Is money safe? FDIC and National Credit Unit Administration have expanded insured amounts up to $250K.

    Govt. insurance for money market mutual funds.

    Concern about some who want to manipulate the market at this time to take advantage. Increased oversight (eg: false info to drive down costs for financial gain).

    Decline in housing market and struggle to meet mortgages:
    1. Hope Now: prevent foreclosure
    2. Refinance program through FHA

  121. Mawm: is Graham gay?

  122. …..DisenfranchisedVoter, on October 10th, 2008 at 10:26 am Said:……What gives them the right now that some are Obamabots to criticize us for holding out hope and actually FIGHTING until election day? Is that somehow weird or wrong to them? I don’t get it.

    Excellent point. Because they have given up, now we must? Don’t think so.

  123. Mawm:

    What annoys me is seeing bloggers who agree with us on most everything accuse us of r@cism or of being GOP ratfuckers.

    Rather than any substantive discussion of perceived disagreement, they just insult us.

    Most of the time they don’t even specify what they are criticizing us for, let alone why they think we are wrong.

  124. fif, I don’t know. It is one of those vicious rumors that has flown around the gay community for years. I have no idea, but it was funny for Gary and I last night because of the way Cindy McCain referred to him as their “adopted son”.

  125. When I asked her what she was doing she said “I’m Dr. House”

    lol!

  126. myiq2xu, on October 10th, 2008 at 10:34 am

    well said and I’m still laughing over having just the seat cushion that works as a floatation device!

  127. This is NOT over. Doesn’t anyone remember in 2004 when the exit polls the day of the election said Kerry was going to win? And there was not this type of volatility back then. I still believe that come electin day, most people are not going to pull the lever for Obama.

  128. Are all of our Jewish friends absent because of Yom Kippur?

  129. Before Super Tuesday the MSM and the Obamabloggers were declaring it was going to be a huge victory for Obama.

    Hillary won.

    They tried the same thing before every primary, but Hillary kept winning or narrowing his original lead.

    It is a haka designed to discourage us.

    That doesn’t mean Obama can’t win or won’t win. Nobody I have seen is claiming that. But it’s too soon to give up.

  130. I figured out why Obama is so up in the polls — they must have polled those newly registered dead people .

  131. Giving up is doing Barry’s work for him,…..now of course, Barry isalways looking for others to do the work for him , but we don’t have to accommodate him

  132. Check this out
    http://www.nypost.com/seven/10102008/news/politics/1_voter__72_registrations_132965.htm
    “Yeah, I’ve registered enough – I might as well vote.”>/i>
    LOL.

  133. There is no hard indication that Lindsay Graham is gay, but a LOT of people with pretty good gaydar think he is. He was my senator for years, and a good many in the know in SC assume the “lifelong bachelor” is closeted. Put it this way – no one who has been around him much would be surprised.

  134. WMCB

    I laughed when I read this

    There is no hard indication that Lindsay Graham is gay

  135. When you dismiss an argument as a “right-wing trope” you are saying that the right-wing is always wrong about everything.

    That also means you think that the left-wing is always right. That’s hubris.

    “So and so said it, therefore it is wrong” is a fallacious argument.

  136. If BOH can’t win fair and square, he’ll steal the election — he’s already laid the groundwork. Anyone following what’s going on in Ohio? The Democratic Ohio Sec’y of State just has to run out the clock, not purge her rolls of the 75,000 fraudulent voter registrations (all Democratic) and let election day come. And it’s happening in several other states.

    On the other hand, we must not give in. The election is still closer than it should be if the whole country just loves BHO. It’s an old ploy to demoralize the opposition so they quit trying. I agree with previous posters that this is not over and we MUST vote and be sure like-minded people do as well!!!

  137. Yes, I have also noticed the absence of many of our Jewish friends. It’s not as lively around here without them.

  138. Yom Kippur was yesterday.

    I think it’s quiet around here because it’s Friday, and it’s been a trying week.

  139. Giving up is worse than defeat . Because giving up is defeating one’s self…..doing the other guys’s job. Nope.

  140. Mawm, ha! 🙂

  141. So what will BO blather on about for half a hour on Oct 29? Any guesses?

  142. I wish I could come out like that Black guy on Fox news. I would be buried alive with arugula stuffed in my mouth if I said anything like that in public

  143. My guess…..He will try to turn himself into Abe, the rail splitter. lol!…it will be all about him , that we know

  144. AAA Gal, that guy said he had been pretty abused for his position. I can imagine. Look what they did to poor Tavis Smiley for merely daring to criticize a little.

  145. Votermom,

    It will totally be like the movie Ntework .

  146. ooop I meant Network

  147. Remember Obama’s first reaction to the crisis? Not going to Washington, and waiting to “bring out the champagne”?

    I find that quite suspicious. Was a certain financial crisis planned by the likes of Soros, which then got out of hand? One thing is certain Soros made a billion pounds out of the sterling crash of ’93. (that’s in any enciclopedia you care to look in). In fact he is known as the man who broke the Bank of England.

    On the other hand Charles and Dakinikat’s recommendations of Paulson and Bernanke, make me feel happier. Like Charles said, these things go like forest fires.
    I even suspect that Paulson wanted a free hand because a) he wanted to avoid Congress tying in too much pork ; b) he didn’t want to benefit Soros et al.

    I see that in Britain, Gordon Brown, who is an excellent economist is partially nationalising banks in return for govt money. No repeat of the Soros billion profiteering for him.
    Although considered less charming than Tony Blair, I personally prefer Gordon Brown (who is also almost blind). He went to the local public (state comprehensive) school and worked his way up. His father was one of the clergy, and they lived in a manse in Scotland.
    Tony Blair, on the other hand went to an elite Edinburgh high school, Fettes College -otherwise known as the ‘Eton of the North’.

    I am so tired of people who went to elite schools in government. They seem to have a mind set of their own.

  148. I never saw Network — I’ll have to check it out…

  149. We need to vote to put an end to the false profit Obama. I cant believe he is doing this prime time thing. The media will eat it up for ratings and try to get him elected.

  150. geez
    “moral seems a bit low here” would be the understatement of the year.

    What is all this talk of giving up?

    Does anyone seriously think the GOP is going to roll over?!
    It’s too early in the game for them to trot out all the dirt on Obama, but don’t think for a minute that they don’t have a plan.

  151. Morale might be low, but morals?

  152. I do wish our small circle of PUMA and puma-related sites would drop the rightwing’s favorite ragdoll of ACORN.

    And the citing of far rightwing sources is depressing.

    But that said, anyone who has a problem with voting Republican as a protest needs to revisit some of our finest moments in history. I was reminded of this last night when I rewatched Iron-Jawed Angels.

    The Suffragettes split on this very issue. The National group supported Wilson and the Dems, but Alice Paul and Lucy Burns were the PUMAs of their day and campaigned against the Dems because they would not enfranchise women.

    No one need apologize for following Alice Paul’s example. End of argument.

  153. thanks myiq
    the low “morals” are on the other side 😉

  154. I hope Fox puts Palin on, at the same time as Obama’s half hour infomercial, or ‘discourse to the Nation’.

  155. zee, I live in one of the counties where ACORN is being investigated, and the charges are very real, and not coming from right wing sources. This is a very real problem, that could potentially affect my vote, so I will not be quiet about it…

    on another topic, has anyone noticed that they are now saying that references to “hockey mom” are now racist? wtf…

  156. AAA Gal….maybe McCain will have something up his sleeve to trump Obama’s paid 30 minutes. It only takes one electrifying moment to change the whole narrative.

    As nervewracking as it is now, it doesn’t pay to play one’s cards too early, especially given the speed of how narratives can turn.

  157. You might like to know that today, the Prez of Italy was on, telling journalists to act responsibly and not to make the crisis out to be more serious than it is.

  158. Zee, I am a DEM but I don’t mind the rightwing stuff. This election has taught me that there are NUTS on both sides.

    New DNC= socialism

    RNC = Centrist DEM. I dont think Roe V. Wade is going anywhere.

  159. fif, on October 10th, 2008 at 10:18 am Said:
    Tag line on bottom of FOX screen: “Obama team working on new ideas to deal with economic crisis.”

    my guess is that is why he made that big 1/2 media buy … he’s going to read somebody else’s economic lecture notes to us

  160. So far only one bank here, in Italy, is in trouble. (Unicredit). That’s because Italy has a VERY old fashioned banking system, and mortgages are hard to get.

  161. everyone has to hang in there and not get beaten down.

    ask yourself if there’s anything you can do today to help defeat Obama.

    Whether it’s writing a post, or talking to someone who is on the fence, or making a few calls for John McCain…

    The people who comment here are some of the most informed about the candidates.

    You can call battleground states for Mac and share what you know to be the truth.
    There is no long term commitment necessary and you don’t have to leave your home.

  162. catarina: No. I have no intention of giving up which is why I plan to go to Scranton this weekend. It is the people I have assumed stopped coming here and took us off of their blogroll who have given up. I don’t expect the GOP to roll over nor were they planning to concede to Obama. Hillary Clinton was one of the few people last year who expected this financial collapse but I doubt even the GOP was prepared for this to happen a month before elections. We’re just going to have to keep working and see what happens. But no, no one here is giving up. We are just complaining about the people who are screaming at us to give up.

  163. gary, clean up at 11:29 TR0ll spew!

  164. Someone please place obamadaughter in the spambox. Thanks.

  165. the market is trying to find a bottom, problem is there is a lot of uncertainty right now … especially concerning the election, neither of these guys know what they’re doing at all … market knows that

  166. Dakinikat-OMG! It’ll be Soros’ “Open Society” all over.

  167. See, folks? This is why Gary needs to moderate comments and check IP addresses. Crazy asses like obamadaughter come to this site all too often to lay their turds.

  168. I’m carrying printed articles around in what I call my “truth folder”
    If I happen to converse with a person who is undecided or just plain confused, I ask them if they would like to read something
    and then whip out an appropriate article.
    So far, so good.
    I’m sure I’ll be winning the Obnoxious Award by November but that’s fine-I’m not going to stop.

  169. fif said: Susan Estrich just said on FOX that “looking at the numbers every morning, this is not going to be a close election. The key states are drifting away from McCain.”

    I saw that too and I was waiting for the come back which never came. Its ironic that Obama who paid ACORN to get out the vote, and who everyone now knows is committing rampant voter fraud registrations, and Obama’s camp says Oh Well, this fraud doesn’t matter since Obama will win by a landslide, which by the way is the whole purpose of the voter fraud. So fraud is ok??? IS THIS WOMAN EVEN AMERICAN?

  170. obamadaughter, on October 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am Said:
    No person with a sane mind would support such an empty suit. If “that one” actually becomes president we will need to call him president oblahblah.

  171. Using “ACORN” as shorthand for left-wing corruption is recycling a right-wing trope.

    Raising specific issues about ACORN based upon evidence is not.

  172. spewing political ads like a zombie is not offering up a different point of view

  173. dakinikat, on October 10th, 2008 at 11:31 am

    I totally agree. The market knows both are over their head in this matter.

  174. Obama daughter, I think you’re late for choir practice. They’re starting to practice the “Obama will lead us” hymn right now.

  175. Obamadaughter,

    There is a bus waiting to take you back to Kool Aid Mountain.

  176. Obamadaughter LOL what a name…reminds me of “woman with a brain stem” that one still makes me laugh 🙂

  177. Obamadaughter’s turd is a floater.

  178. You all are cracking me up with the answers to
    Obamadaughter LOL!! also besides his actual daughters, what does it mean when you call your self
    Obamadaughter? It that like Obama spawn? what?

  179. Disenfranchised Voter

    You’re going to Scranton-with Harriet!! That is great-wish I could go.

    And fuck those goddamned bloggers .
    Why does anyone here give a rat’s ass what those folks think of them when they have chosen to become part of the problem?
    There just isn’t time for that-I refuse to even read their crap.

  180. Catarina you’re right. I think people like Carol are less on the blog because they are busy on the phone or whatever.
    I would be out there right now putting flyers on cars, if I could but I live abroad.

    You know what’s strange here- it’s the right wing Berlusconi tv channels which are touting all the BO talking points now.
    The left wing channels are more or less ignoring him-and that since the Berlin rally.

  181. Just made a nice flyer with the pic from NQ of Obama with
    Pfleger.
    It will include the text of the good Reverend’s Hillary rant.

  182. Gary,

    I don’t have the time or inclination to read up on the minutia on both sides of this ACORN crap, and debunk all the hysteria point by point, but I do know that it’s a LONG time rightwing wailing-point and that the Bush-era scandal of the state attorney generals who did not FALSELY prosecute them the last time and were fired for their integrity included Republicans who did the right thing, so whether or not there are some who don’t follow party lines, this is a political punching bag, just like Roe v Wade.

    And anyone who actually is fretting about “dead” people voting SHOULD take the time to read up on it and inform themselves rather than let rightwingers come in and whip them into a frenzy. It’s hard enough to get people to vote once, let alone get enough people to run around and impersonate dead people, risking imprisonment along the way. Non-issue and very distracting from the real ones.

  183. Zee: I was talking about this stuff, as were most academic circles talking about the subprime markets, years ago … I was presenting papers on this like 2-3 years ago … the right wing talking points have shown up recently …

  184. Angie, Gary and Mawm: I don’t know what it’s like where you guys are, but down here I’ve noticed a very ironic twist since the ’04 election. Last time around, the Bush signs were on the SUV’s and in front of the McMansions, while the Kerry signs were on the compact cars and in front of the working class homes. This year, the Obama signs and stickers are on the SUV’s and in front of the McMansions, and the McCain signs are on the compact cars and in front of the working class homes.

    And someone please explain to me how NC is suddenly “in play”?

  185. Laurie
    Why the hell aren’t you at the beach? 😉

    If you get bored you can harass your friends via email with some classic video of the Obamas spewing their hatred.

  186. zee, you can read my post on allegations of fraud in my county of Durham, NC here:

    https://riverdaughter.wordpress.com/2008/09/20/vote-or-risk-having-your-vote-stolen/

    my source, the Durham Herald is a VERY liberal paper, and Durham is the bluest county in the state. the paper urged the co. to investigate, which the board of elections (controlled by democrats) eventually did and found that the allegations had merit. I don’t know how that could possibly be construed as “right wing talking points”.

  187. myiq, true enough, but the people who come in here and talk about ACORN are not giving facts, they are doing the former….using it as a trope, along with the usual rightwing laundry list of “socialist, marxist” blah blah blahhhhh.

  188. I think I get what is going on, the economic crisis, is sort of overshadowing everything. Now people aren’t paying attention to all of Obama’s shady things.

    The article in the Washington Times is being ignored.

    The NYT article on his donations questions, ignored.

    The Associations, ignored.

    That’s why he is surging in the polls.

    But I don’t care what they say, in the end, I just don’t think people are going to pull the lever, and with the Republicans mad as well, and some democrats, I just think regardless of what they say, McCain still has a good shot.

  189. Gary, I remember the “brain stem” lass — I still laugh about that one too.

  190. zee
    this “Acorn crap” is about VOTER FRAUD.
    If there’s any hysteria I’d say it’s pretty damned justified.
    Why are you talking about Bush?

    This is happening NOW and the problem is with Obama and the Dems, not GWB.

  191. Good Connecticut allowing Gay Marriage!

  192. is any one bothering to watch Dubya trying to be relevant? I’m in my office right now so can’t do it …

    i can’t imagine him coming on tv is going to really be a comfort moment for anyone … he should just hide in the oval office and play his video game, like he used to do as governor of texas and hope Paul takes care of everything

  193. I’ve got last night’s SNL debate skit video up in case anyone missed it.

    MountainSage

  194. “I do wish our small circle of PUMA and puma-related sites would drop the rightwing’s favorite ragdoll of ACORN.”

    Zee, under EXACTLY the same set of circumstances, but having the repub candidate being the one having to respond to the charges that perhaps he has too many ties to an organization that has been spotted as not being too concerned about protecting the integrity of how our votes should be obtained–without coaching and without intimidation of any sort… And, of course, also changing the name from BO to JM, my question is this. Would you be sponsoring the same criteria, that of dropping the ACORN fiasco?

    I am a totally in the tank for Hillary, but absolutely against the likes of any empty suit (of any party) getting his or her hands on the door of the presidency independent, and can assure you that clearing anything that may be clouding the sanctity of one person one vote is far more than a “ragdoll” issue with me.

    Because they are not afraid of telling it like it is, PUMAS will Rock forever!

  195. I’m with you, Ana.
    I see more and more Mccain bumper stickers and lawn signs
    and I’m in MA.
    When I go out with my McCain gear bag people are tearing the stuff out of my hands.
    I’ve stopped paying attention to the polls-they are full of shit.
    I think it’s the other side that’s in denial.
    The Obama surrogates are screeching and whining and crapping themselves. I think it’s because they know the GOP has more stuff on them.

  196. JulieS9164: I know of at least two Obamabots who are Libertarians and usually vote Republican. And yea, they both make more than 6 figures and could give a rat’s ass about the people losing their homes right now. I also know of many people I went to high school with who grew up in mansions, who have never had the desire to step foot into economically depressed areas, and are now “progressives” passionate about electing Obama from their luxury lofts in Portland, the Upper West Side, the Gold Coast, Cambridge and Ann Arbor. This is what is so ironic about this election.

    Anyway, I’ll be gone for a little while. Be back later….

  197. kenoshaMarge, on October 10th, 2008 at 8:51 am Said:

    Who can we trust? No one it appears.

    Here’s a cartoon I found over at Cannonfire that also shows where blame also belongs.

    http://www.salon.com/comics/boll/2008/10/09/boll/

    ———————-

    Oh heck, I hate to click on a Salon link, but I admit, this made me laugh!

    Part of what’s funny is it’s *Salon* smugly pretending they can comment on entitlement, heh. It’s like layers of teh funny.

  198. JulieS: I’ve noticed a similar thing around here, in RI. The most Obama signs are in the affluent neighborhoods, and lots of Obama bumper stickers are on cars like Escalades. Huh! I also noticed that the signs 1) seem to be in the same places as during the primary and 2) don’t say Obama/Biden. I don’t think I’ve even seen a sign with Biden’s name on it. I wonder if Obama even had any made like that?

  199. Dakini
    who is “Dubya”?

    😈

  200. Zee – ACORN is a major issue if we can’t get all of those fraudulent voters off the rolls – and they have managed to screw with the numbers badly. So it’s not simply a favorite ragdoll They are engaged in illegal activities that can impact the future of our country.

  201. hi PUMAs 🙂

    My guess is obamadaughter = christine or one of her despicable gang.

    SPAM that tr011!!

  202. I Agree, ACORN is important, but what the heck is my avatar? I’m sure I used to have a better one than that!

  203. the Acorn crap is also about intimidating banks into making bad loans, by finding lawyers like the Obamas to force banks into making bad loans or disallowing their mergers …

    mortgage loan lending standards were relaxed and it just started the huge housing bubble which is at the root of this crisis …

    that’s not just a talking point, it’s salient to their current crisis and the role obama played in that is salient to the type of things he’d do as president …

  204. Gary: Some AA Congresswoman [can’t remember the name, but the quote was at NQ yesterday] said that “hockey mom” and “Joe Six-Pack” were rac*st because most AAs don’t share that experience. So when Sarah mentions them, she’s well, you know.

    I guess anything that anyone thinks is not part of the national AA culture is rac*st. And that’s not snark.

  205. here’s a nice video

    please give Obama a chance.

  206. Speaking of the economy:
    The newest ad from Democrats For Principle Before Party is posted at our website at http://tdg.typepad.com/democrats_for_principle_b/2008/10/my-entry.html and over on YouTube at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wbk77esm5U

    It attacks Senator Obama’s economic judgment. Please consider rating it on YouTube. We have placed one ad buy for it already and hope the youtube will bring in more funds.

  207. equally as salient is any one that is cozy with the investment bankers that really ran amok with the looser lending standards … and this was both republicans and many of Obama’s donors and finance commitee chair members

  208. All the Obama bumper stickers I see are on filthy shitboxes with the bumpers hanging off. I’m not kidding.

    I was driving behind this complete jackass a few days ago that was swerving and riding her brakes.
    Sorry to be gross but I had to get on her tail and look to see who was driving this lurching car.
    May the goddess strike me dead if this isn’t a true story.

    The nasty bitch was squeezing her zits while driving.
    I was having a fit, beeping and motioning her to pull over.
    She did not.
    She took out a tweezer and started plucking her chin.
    And yes, you guessed it.
    She had an Obama bumper sticker.
    That’s when I really lost it.

  209. Zee:

    OTOH – the MSM and Obamabloggers treat any inquiry into Obama, his acssociates and/or ACORN as r@cism.

    I say fuck the hysteria, show me facts.

  210. hi heidi, good too see you, great job.

    on may way to class now,

    later

  211. I’ll post it on my blog Heidi Li.

    Thanks for all you and Marc do… you totally rock !

  212. What I hate about ACORN is that here is an organization which is supposed to be working for the poor and it’s been corrupted into a vote-getting machine by Dems. I think that’s just exploitation.

  213. PumaAlliance:

    Nice lipstick

  214. myiq2xu 😀 thanks, yours has beautiful eyes!

  215. catarina, too funny! Last week I was driving behind an older car with a BO sticker and suddenly the guy just braked and pulled over with no warning. I almost ran into him. I miss the good old days of cussing out bad drivers with Bush/Cheney stickers on their cars.

  216. I think the NYT has some solid reporting on this “financial crisis”. Krugman has been pretty much on the money, no pun intended, on this matter.

    Krugman also has a very interesting piece on one of the more important issues of the day that’s been pushed aside, understandably, for the “financial crisis” – the healthcare system. Good reading here.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/10/06/opinion/06krugman.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

  217. catarina,

    It’s almost lunch time — hold the visuals.

  218. sorry Pro
    hate to be disgusted all alone

    lol Jules, yeah feels weird flipping dems the bird- oh wait their not dems!

  219. Thanks Dak and pumaalliance. I’m off to spread the word.

  220. Gary…

    Maybe Obama could hijack one little primary caucus at a time by bussing in his devoted followers, but in a national general election how many people could and would actually vote early vote often?

    Did you go to bradblog and read up on how ACORN is required by law to vet their own lists and they follow up and flag problematic names on the registry?

    Of course there are going to be legitimate problem registrations….how else did Obama get Alice Palmer and his other opponents kicked off the ballot?
    They meant no harm and yet had enough dubious names on their lists to get kicked off the ballot. That is the reality of hiring contract workers and engaging with the public.

    We definitely should be finetuning and watch-dogging all steps of our elections….but demonizing a voter-registration group instead of helping them to register new voters in a better fashion is not a great way to participate in the process, imo.

    And, frankly, I think we should do the fine-tuning when there is no immediate election clouding the issues for both sides.

  221. POE isn’t it racist to make assumptions about people soley based on their race…like that black people dont play hockey? They are using a racist argument to call US racist. O’Reilly, god love him, actually got it right last night. what if we started talking about basketball moms…wouldn’t they be all over us?

  222. I agree with you Caterina, I live in NY, and let me tell you besides parts of the city, like the village and bk, i haven’t seen that many obama signs. I have seen plenty of McCain signs in Queens, odly enough and the Bronx.

  223. Zee, despite the fact that there has been a history of right-wingers railing at fake “marxism”, there DO EXIST in this country real live Marxists and authoritarian-style socialists. I will not ignore that threat to my country just because some batshit crazy wingers cried wolf at any liberal program as being “marxist”.

    When the fucking wolf is at my throat, it is not the time to go all whiny and shut my eyes to the truth, because some idiot 6 years ago decried a harmless poodle as a wolf, therefore THIS wolf that is about to rip my jugular out must not exist.

    When I yell loud and clear “IT’S A FUCKING WOLF!” I have good, factual, solid reason to do so. Responding with “yeah, they always say that about the poodle, so you are just like them” is myopic in the extreme.

  224. I think Pres. McCain should just leave healthcare alone since the GOP will just make it worse, and focus on creating an energy infrastructure to create more jobs. He should work on those “green-collar” jobs with Hillary.

  225. Did you go to bradblog and read up on how ACORN is required by law to vet their own lists and they follow up and flag problematic names on the registry?
    _____________________________________

    sure, and we will trust them to do just that!

    “helping them register new voters in a better fashion”
    Zee, are you serious?
    Please stop this crap, right now.

  226. Catarina–excellent suggestion. I got tired of telling people about sites and links knowing they’d probably never get around to looking at them (being guilty of that myself), so I printed out the most relevent ones and keep them with me in my appt. book. My fave? the one from opensecrets showing how much $$ Nancy P gave those delegates and then how they voted. People flip out. O/T–I lost my best friend in Boise over this. He’s grown gills and swims in the KoolAid and called me a traitor and a embarrassment to the Party. Amen.

  227. KY news made a big hoopla on Obama visiting the declining rust bowl city of Portsmouth, Ohio yesterday. My newspaper had multiple huge mult-color pics of Obama & supporters with a very flattering byline.

    The prez race here isn’t tightening any, so I’m predicting a new and improved onslaught of beatings from the rac*st stick.

    Funny thing, hub keeps getting lots of calls from Dem orgs and I don’t get any. Although I’m more active, when we worked with MoveOn [ugh], we put most of the stuff in hubby’s name to avoid duplication. That has to be the link to all kinds of stuff – mailings, emails, phone calls, you name it. Soros must be heavily invested in tons of left orgs.

  228. zee you’re making quite a few unfounded assumptions imo as well. I think what bothers us is that you are accusing some of us of using “right wing talking points” when we clearly have evidence that this is not some “benign” organization. We get enough of that nonsense from other fronts. i agree that making blanket statements is a bad thing. My problem is that your statement is just as much a blanket statement as any argument against acorn.

  229. dakinikat is right. ACORN is bigger than just the voter fraud. Their extortion to force banks to lend to people who couldn’t afford it has at least exacerbated this mortgage meltdown. Some would argue that their activities and the reluctance of Dem senate leadership to support any tougher regulation on Fannie and Freddie is actually at the center of this crisis.

    So now ACORN is fraudulently registering non-existant people as well as submitting duplicate registrations, and we are not supposed to be alarmed by that?

    Give me a break! The Dems were just about to give ACORN $200,000,000,000 of the bail-out money before the Reps stripped out the provision. This organization is nefarious. I don’t care what you call me for saying that. There is so much smoke it is getting hard to see around here.

  230. Good original intentions, or regulations on paper of how they are “supposed” to do things, does not protect from a hijacking of the process via outright corruption.

    From what I have seen, ACORN is utterly corrupt at this point. Whether or not they started out that way is irrelevant. A lot of money has changed hands over the years, and it has become a sewer of favor-trading and turning a blind eye to hiring felons, REPEATED and WIDESPREAD violations of their own rules, and intimidation tactics toward very vulnerable voters.

    You can say all day long that the “favorite rag doll” is just being misunderstood, but the facts are there. Maybe they were being misunderstood 10 years ago, maybe not. But in the here and now, they STINK with fraud to high heaven.

  231. Silly Gary, stop being logical and fair. Please remember that anything that hurts Obama is rac*st, and anything that helps Obama is not rac*st. Life is so much simpler if we just remember that one tiny, tiny rule of life in the USA today.

  232. Irlandese
    The Pelosi $-that’s a good one!
    I can’t keep the articles about Palin stocked, and people are shocked when they see how far off the media is.
    Sorry to hear about your friend. I’ve lost a few too. A few others just avoid me so who knows what will happen after the election.

    Amazing how Mr-I’m-going-to-bring-people-together has destroyed so many friendships.
    Wonder how many divorces will result from this campaign.

  233. Zee, many of Obama’s supporters control the precincts in Durham. I am not afraid of people being bussed in to vote twice. I am afraid of corrupt individuals using the fraudulent voter regs and sumbitting them en masse.

  234. JM was talking about that Chicago observatory again — said BO earmarked money for it because observatory raised $200,000 for BO.

  235. such a way with words, WMCB
    and I really love your hat too!

  236. I do not think the ACORN scandal is a right wing bs talking point. I was just as scandalized in 2000 when Bush stole florida, and I see no reason to not be scandalized now. Maybe now that we are seeing that both parties are untrustworthy, our State Election officials will put partisan BS behind us and give us back our Democracy.

    BTW, if I thought those homeless people would vote, I wouldn’t have a problem, that is there right. The problem is that Obamabots are going to vote on behafl of the homeless guy, through absentee ballot or impersonation.

  237. How can you folks be horrified that the Dems stole the votes this primary and yet be passive about the massive voter fraud allegedly perpetrated by ACORN.

  238. One clear reason for the current mess in our country today is that Republicans thought any R was better than any D in 2000 and 2004, and Democrats thought any D was better than any R in 2006 and 2008. We have to stop throwing out babies with the bath water. We have to support smart people of integrity no matter what the party affiliation. And we need some 3rd party folks in there, too.

  239. I was watching Live Free or Die Hard a couple of days ago–boy does that phrase sum of this year–and I noticed that Obama’s fake presidential seal looked a lot like the government seals in the movie.

    Could Obama possibly have stolen the design of his seal from an action movie?

    :::::::::::Shakes Magic 8 ball::::::::::::::::::::::

    Sources say yes.

  240. I haven’t seen anyone claim the current allegations against ACORN are bogus.

    All I see is the general idea that any criticism of ACORN is a right-wing trope.

    That’s the same thing they do with criticism of Obama – instead of a substantive response the whole topic is deligitimized by calling it r@cist

  241. marisa, check out the logo for the Weather Underground, Ayers’ terrorist organization. It looks eerily similar to the Obama logo too.

  242. I wouldn’t be at all surpised to see a huge increase in divorce rate from this. I have been thinking that but never said it till now. I cannot imagine how I could tolerate living with an obot.

  243. myiq2xu

    That is exactly the tactic. Obama does it and the MSM does it too, just make it seem like it’s a smear instead of answering it. Same as he and the DNC have done with Bergs lawsuit by the way.

  244. NH, on October 10th, 2008 at 12:16 pm Said:
    ……
    BTW, if I thought those homeless people would vote, I wouldn’t have a problem, that is there right. The problem is that Obamabots are going to vote on behalf of the homeless guy, through absentee ballot or impersonation…..

    I agree. Obama will feed these names into the system some how…he would never leave it to those that signed up to actually vote…. , to paraphrase Barry, ” we don’t need the people, just the names “

  245. Ughhh…. More trouble for Mccain…. devastating new poll numbers out from Gallup today….

    Obama is up by 24 points among registered dead voters….

    yikes….

  246. PumaAlliance:

    Living with Obots wouldn’t be difficult, assuming one had a dungeon to keep them in.

  247. “When you dismiss an argument as a ‘right-wing trope’ you are saying that the right-wing is always wrong about everything.”

    myiq, not really. I meant citing rightwing sources is about as useful as citing those who are in the tank for Obama. I do read them, and if they are not chock-full of rants about socialism and marxism, I will follow up on them and try to source the same story from more neutral outlets.

    And I know there are some stories, such as Obama’s campaigning for Odinga, that could only be found on rightwing blogs and foreign sources. In such a case, my goal would be to bring that story over to what is hopefully a PROGRESSIVE blog, and I would do it by going to original sources, not filling the place with links to rightwing blogs where we have to wear hip boots to wade through all the asides about “liberal marxists.”

    But hey. Have it your way. ACORN is DOOM and the dead people will steal the election.

    Personally, I would feel better if someone would look into bradblog’s debunking of this hysteria and report on that and not fall prey to traditional rightwing distractions.

    I notice the distraction is completely embedded and not one person commented on my awesome comeback to those who are not quite on board with voting McCain as a protest vote.

    That is, Alice Paul as the original PUMA who put principle above party line.

    What a shame.

  248. The media is soooo corrupt. Notice Obama speaking engagements are always surrounded by masses of white folks. They are doing this on purpose. Obama doesn’t want to be shown with black folks because his campaign believes that would turn off white voters. AA are told this is ok becuase Obama needs to get elected. Geez, our society will be split in two if he wins.

  249. And BTW, I now understand how we got the corruption and cronyism of GW Bush. I often wondered about that, since I personally know many Republicans who are decent, honorable people. It always puzzled me why more of them did not speak out, did not fight the cancer growing in their party.

    Now I know. Because, like Zee here, they were more worried about appearing to reinforce “the other side” than about THE TRUTH. They closed their eyes and shut their mouths, because to admit that Georgie and Cheny were robber-baron bastards would have been, in their minds, tantamount to admitting that every criticism of their party by the far left ever uttered in all of political history must be true. That’s ridiculous, of course. They could have denounced the wrongs without turning overnight into raving far-left liberals, but their fear of “giving credence” to the “enemy” kept them silent.

    It was stupid, myopic, and dangerous to this country when the Right did it, and it is stupid, myopic, and dangerous to this country when the Left does it.

    There is something WRONG with this country when the tactics and strategies of ideological loyalty trump calling out crime and filth and corruption. And Zee, you are doing the exact same thing that my good and decent Repub friends did, when they knew exactly what went down in Ohio, but kept their mouths shut so as not to give ammunition to the enemy.

  250. What a shame
    _________________
    what’s a shame is that you just won’t quit.
    I think I need MY hip boots.

  251. McCains poll numbers

    I am afraid Obama talking point that McCain pounding on Ayers association and ignoring economy is working. Americans are dumb.

  252. Zee:

    My way is to cite the truth wherever I find it.

  253. BPD, I am on the gallup website and the update is not yet recorded. Where are you seeing those numbers?

  254. I lived thru the last 2 elections, I know I’ll live thru this one too. I always attempt to confound people by being over-the-top cheery and tell them how much I’ll enjoy telling them “I told you so” in the next 4 years. I’m a stubborn optimist; I’d be singing “Pennies from Heaven” like a fool even if I were going down on the Titanic.
    Everybody–I’m off to work but good luck today and I hope the market doesn’t wipe everybody out; but if it does, I’m proposing the first Hooverville right here in Pendleton.

  255. Actually, SM77 was the original PUMA

  256. Okay, some hard facts, Acorn dropped 75,000 absentee ballots in Ohio. A couple of anecdotes, one person registered 77 times in a year and a half, one person registered a dozen times in ten days and so it goes…

    The way the scheme works with absentees is, once the absentee ballot is removed from its envelope, it is then just like any other ballot and can’t be identified as an absentee. There is no way to determine which ballot is which — courts would be loathe to invalidate an election before people go to the polls so the election continues. If the outcome is more than the 75,000 by a substantial margin, no harm no foul (or so the argument goes), if it is less than the 75,000 and votes are invalidated, screams of vote stealing then become the battle cry.

    It is the same old meme, we won the election the old fashion way, we stoled it, live with it or in the words of an Obanaut, “get over it.”

  257. please spare us the righteous indignation zee…we get enough of that already. If you bothered to take the time to read or listen to what we’re saying you wouldn’t keep repeating your “trope”. If you want to refute any specific argument anyone here has made about ACORN go for it, but conflating it with stories about odinga and marxism is even more disingenuous than what you accuse the right wing of doing.

  258. Delurking to ask:
    Where are the neutral outlets in the media?

    and I am pretty sure BPD was kidding.

  259. Hey everyone – OT, but how about some good news?

    Same-sex marriage now legal in Connecticut!

    Wooooohoooooo!

  260. Cnn reporting Obama and Ayers “may have crossed paths”
    oh brother.
    now there’s some “trope”

  261. WMCB:

    Bingo!

    I am a flaming liberal, but that doesn’t mean I agree with every idea labled “left-wing” or that everything someone on the right side of the political spectrum is wrong.

    That’s especially true when we’re talking facts as opposed to opinions.

  262. Prolix, in OH the election officials on the county level are asking to be allowed to verify that those voters match the DL and SS and address info. That’s all they are asking – access to the database to confirm, before the votes go in. The Dem SOS is blocking that. There is a one week window to do it, and if she can stall long enough, those ballots are legally un-challengable, because as you said, there is no way to check once the registrations are un-linked from the ballots cast. They become anonymous votes at that point, with no way to know whether a real registered voter cast them, or my dog Chester.

    It is shameful that a “Democrat” is acting in this way. Disgusting, and shameful.

  263. madamab, on October 10th, 2008 at 12:35 pm Said:

    Hey everyone – OT, but how about some good news?

    Same-sex marriage now legal in Connecticut!

    Wooooohoooooo!
    _____________________________________
    this is good news as long as it doesn’t mean G & M won’t get married in MA.
    I was planning on signing up to throw rice.

  264. LOL at the idea of a Sarah Palin fix. My hubby made the mistake of saying she sounded stupid because she has a tic like McCain. Instead of “my friend” she uses “and also “alot(even at the end of her sentences). In solidarity with Sarah Palin and thumbing my nose at the hubby’s comment about her being stupid, I have been ending my sentences with and also with him. I no longer tolerate hearing how this woman isn’t smart. I also took a hunk out of some folks on a frugal board who called her inexperienced. I pointed out their candidate had less experience then she did in executive matters.

  265. sophia- it was a joke… registered DEAD voters…. i guess the joke fell flat… oh well…. 3 day weekend coming up, who cares….

  266. G & M
    no pressure, you guys..

  267. WMCB, after the 2000 debacle, isn’t checking against the DL and SS databases part of the federal law applicable in all 57 states?

  268. I am sorry, the maniacs in my office are driving me nuts about Obama being up in the polls 20+ points so I went to check the polls then I saw your comment.

    Yes long holiday weekend, I need a break!

  269. I think some of the stories getting spread on PUMA sites are intended to discredit PUMA, not Obama.

    Ever notice that the worst stories don’t come from the posters here, or even regular commenters, but come from visitors?

    Then those stories and comments are nut-picked to use against the rest of us.

  270. catarina – LOL!

    I’ll sing!

  271. parentofed, on October 10th, 2008 at 12:18 pm Said:
    One clear reason for the current mess in our country today is that Republicans thought any R was better than any D in 2000 and 2004, and Democrats thought any D was better than any R in 2006 and 2008. We have to stop throwing out babies with the bath water. We have to support smart people of integrity no matter what the party affiliation. And we need some 3rd party folks in there, too.

    You are so right, ah, correct. As long as we demonize everything that is said by a Republican and Republicans demonize everything said by a Democrat, the powers that be in BOTH parties can continue to divide and conquer by dividing the people into neat little groups.

    As a newbie Independent I like the freedom to pick and choose who I listen to, who I choose to believe and who I respect without bothering to identify their party affiliation. I’m sick to death of “party profiling”.

  272. o/t when are Gary and Mawm getting married?

    CONGRATULATIONS!

    I have missed quite a lot of stuff as I have been ill and offline for a while.

  273. The same media that is trying desperately to elect
    The One

    Is now yakking 24/7 about te stock market

    Panic will not help. It will only “help” make it
    worse. And will “help” The One.

    If you are middle-aged, not near retirement,
    ride it out. You could be a big winner when things
    recover.

    Do not panic.

  274. Myiq said: Actually, SM77 was the original PUMA

    Ah, but we remember her when she was just a sm.

  275. PofEd, I’m totally absorbed by your resemblance to Sponge Bob?

  276. About the meltdown and the media….. You know when even the local news has a spiffy graphics and plays doom sound track music when a topic is spoken of, it’s planned….

  277. From a local news station here in Houston, TX – Channel 2 News (NBC) reports:

    ———————————————–

    Local 2 Investigates Dead Voters

    POSTED: 11:16 am CDT October 9, 2008
    UPDATED: 9:08 am CDT October 10, 2008

    HOUSTON — Note: The following story is a verbatim transcript of an Investigators story that aired on Thursday, Oct. 8, 2008, on KPRC Local 2 at 10 p.m.

    Local 2 investigates dead voters.

    The push to register voters for this year’s presidential election is breaking records.

    More than 1.9 million people are registered to vote in Harris County alone.

    But how many of the people listed on the voter roll are actually eligible to cast a ballot?

    Investigative reporter Amy Davis shows you how hundreds of voters could sway this year’s election — voters who are not even alive.

    “All-in-all, a great person, a great woman, just a wonderful person” is how Alexis Guidry described her mother to Local 2 Investigates.

    “As far back as I can remember, they’ve always voted in the election,” Guidry said of her parents.

    The March 2008 Primary was no exception. Voting records show Alexis’ mom, Gloria Guidry, cast her ballot in person near her South Houston home.

    “It was just very shocking, a little unsettling,” said Alexis Guidry.

    It’s unsettling because Gloria Guidry died of cancer 10 months before the March Primary.

    “She’d be very upset,” Guidry said when asked what her mom would think.

    Trent Seibert, of Texas Watchdog, says you should be too.

    “This is really disquieting. It’s concerning. It’s worrisome,” said Seibert.

    He heads up the non-partisan news group on the web.

    Texas Watchdog compared Harris County’s voter registration roll with the Social Security death index and found more than 4,000 matches — registered voters that, it appears, are already dead.

    Some of them, like Henderson Hill’s late wife Linda, voted postmortem.

    “I would like to know who did it, myself,” Hill told Davis.

    We don’t know who used Linda Hill’s or Gloria Guidry’s IDs to vote, but we do know if their names had been purged from voter rolls after they died, using their IDs wouldn’t have worked.

    “This is a red flag. No matter where you are, this should set off alarm bells,” Seibert said. “Someone needs to take a look at this.”

    Local 2 Investigates took the information to the Harris County Voter Registrar.

    “We just kind of work with the systems that we’re allowed to,” explained George Hammerlein, the director of Harris County Voter Registration.

    The county’s system for culling deceased voters from the roll seems painfully primitive.

    We watched employees clip obituaries from the newspaper and sort through probate records for names matching those on the roll. But, Hammerlein says while fraud is a concern, for his office, disenfranchising voters is a bigger one.

    “We do all we can, but you know we’d rather err on the side of leaving people on the roll instead of taking them off inadvertently,” he said.

    But could that cautious “better safe than sorry” standard sway an election some say will be a close one?

    Texas Watchdog found 4,462 registered voters who appear to be deceased.

    In 2000, George Bush won the presidential election by a mere 537 votes in Florida.

    “We’ve never had any evidence there’s a concerted attempt at fraud,” Hammerlein told Local 2.

    But there is evidence the state agency in charge of ensuring only eligible voters can vote is not.

    The State Auditor’s Office conducted an audit of the voter registration system at the Secretary of State’s Office last November.

    Auditors identified 49,049 registered voters state-wide who may have been ineligible to vote. Approximately 23,576 may have been deceased and another 23,114 were possible felons. And they found more than 2,359 duplicate records.

    The auditor did not find any instances in which potentially ineligible voters actually voted, but they wrote, “Although the Secretary of State’s office has processes to identify many ineligible voters and remove them from the State’s voter registration list, improvements can be made.”

    Almost a year after this audit, we wanted to know if the Secretary of State has made any improvements. Have they added any safeguards to the process?

    No one from that office would talk to us on camera, but the Director of Elections told us, “We’d rather err in leaving someone on the roll than taking someone off.”

    “If there’s something wrong here, if there’s something amiss, this is the worst election to have that happen, “Seibert warned.

    And Guidry agrees.

    “I don’t think it’s a matter that she would take lightly,” she said of her mom.

    In what she calls an historic election, Guidry says her mother wouldn’t want anyone speaking for her.

    “I think she would definitely do all that she could just to make sure things were on the up and up.”

    We sent the information we showed you to the Director of Elections in Austin. She said her office refers any credible allegation of election fraud to the Attorney General for investigation.

    She said the cases we presented would be felony violations.

    Visit http://www.texaswatchdog.org for more information about how Texas Watchdog found dead voters on the rolls.

    ——————————-

  278. voter registration has been going on for months, with little being said, & now there’s little time to check the freaking names….help. It reminds me when Dems complained about electronic voting…not in 2000, but in Oct 2004, when it was too late to do anything….och

  279. Food for thought RD. I don’t know what it means about the banks and the houses and the owning of bankks byt he government?
    But it sounds bad. I’ve had thoughts about FDR WPA for some time now — since I last worked (ages ago) as a therapist.

    Out here, on the coast, in CA you have thousands of people who are homeless and have migrated because there is no work on the interior for them? I was seeing this and it has doubled since. Last night, I was looking at other States and houses that were like $159,000 — really storybook houses in Maine — charming.

    I don’t think it’s fair what people did by cashing in on their houses and walking out —-? But, I have little illusion about what would happen in McCain doesn’t get in. He has solutions. I don’t want WWIII RD & Co.

    Last night I saw Mountain Sage say “moonshine!” — yeah. This might be the mo for back to the land? Just where? I was always “hooked” when I was working for someone. After you get out of the loop — you start feeling differently — it takes a while though.

    McC is riled by the corporate fat cats who caused this — Iread last night he will go after the bad guys. I trust that about him. Like the Franklin Raines et al. The ones who did this should face legal consequences. It has been teh era of ENRON for a lot of these bad types. They’ll get theirs. O is NOT the answer to the good of all.

    He has a select demographic he favors, and he lies about his Communist and other ties.

    Horrifying to watch the collapse post the Clinton era. And I hope the little sh*ts who you mentioned are singing the blues for trashing her as they did.

  280. Who are the majority of persons running the banking institutions? Men.
    Who are the majority of persons running Freedie Mac and Fannie Mae? Men.
    Who are the majority of persons running Wallstreet investment firms? Men.
    Who are the majority of persons running the United States government? Men.
    These men have no honor, no respect, no conscience, and refuse to take responsibility for their actions. Indeed, these MEN ARE COWARDS.
    Which explains why people will not elect a woman to high ranking political power. Men are TERRIFIED women will do a better job. Men are TERRIFIED a woman will lead one of the most powerful countries in the world and lead it FAR BETTER than every male president who preceeded her.

  281. It’s interesting. I was talking to one of the Obama supporters at work and he truly believes that if McCain is elected that things will get worse. Apparently he read some anti-McCain article “The Real McCain” in Rolling Stone and holds that up as a reason to vote for Obama. He even mentioned that Obama lacked experience but since BO graduated in the top of his class (is this even true?) that he’s smart enough to come up with a solution. I know I should have called him on it and asked him: What has BO ever DONE? The answer: Nothing. He has snuck by on a padded resume for, apparently, his entire life. What makes anyone think that NOW he’ll actually PRODUCE anything???

    It’s maddening.

  282. OT: Hi Arabella, I hear you! Sorry to snap at you earlier. I’m having a bad day too. Good luck with the job search.

  283. POE: I’m still “SM” just that I have to wear the “77” to sign into WordPress.

    MYIQ: Not just me, it’s WE!

  284. Zee: There are 187 voting precincts in Mecklenburg County, NC. If you broke the county into zones and had 25 people in each zone registering under false names in each precint in their zone and then going from precinct to precint on election day, that’s 4675 fraudulent votes just from my county. THAT’S how you conduct a fraudulent election. Not that hard.

  285. PumaAlliance, I am separated from my Obot spouse and it’s difficult enough as it is. We’ve had some screaming fights over the election. He told me not to ‘hold the country hostage.’ Really? Maybe Howard Dean is right–I DO have the power!

    Ze French Boyfriend doesn’t really have a dog in this fight, but doesn’t fully grok my refusal to vote Obama. “Do it for the foreigners!” he says. “Europeans would much rather see a Democratic president.”

  286. Please digg the new McCain ad about ACORN

    http://digg.com/2008_us_elections/ACORN

  287. ugsome, I’ve always had the idea in the back of my mine to create a dating website for Clinton supporters. It’s about time we find men who don’t hate Hillary Clinton or participated in the sexism and abuse during the primaries.

  288. […] Friday: Assume the position Brace yourselves, Conflucians.  Today could be very scary.  The markets closed down sharply in the last minutes of […] […]

  289. DisenfranchisedVoter, I am a man who supported Hillary from the start and agree that the sexism against her was sickening.

  290. I can’t vote for either candidate. Obama is a total crook and incapable of running anything. McCain is increasingly being run by the neocons who gave us most of W’s 8 years of horror. If you believe McCain will be better please don’t forget who was really running the country, the neocons who just happen to be largely represented at the University of Chicago where BO “taught”.
    Until I retired I was a fixed income investment analyst, at the VP level of one of the big institutions that is still standing. One of only two women analysts. This appears to me to be a manufactured “crisis” albeit based on greed and no risk control. Outside of politicians, you’d be hard pressed to find bigger liers and incompetants than the financial companies that are sucking up our money and just can’t bring themselves to loan out their money to keep the economy going. This is closer than a holdup than a money “crisis” and to the extent that they have stuck their brethren with a bunch of debt that no one can bother to value. It is not that difficult, they just don’t like to bother. Granted that a lot of small banks don’t have the expertise to get out of this but believe me the big guys know how…it is eaisier to get “bailed” out. I’d like each of these CEOs to be required to get on TV and explain to us why they need our money to save them and why they refuse to use the money they do have.
    One last rant…I like Sarah but she is just being used…I hate that.

  291. How in the world is nationalizing banks a good thing? If we get the wrong people in power we are all screwed. It’s a huger leap toward socialism. It’s unprecedented.

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