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Friday: Cool Shoes!

I guess it’s no surprise by now that we are totally in love with Sarah.  No, she is no Hillary Clinton.  They really aren’t in the same league.  Hillary is ready to be president.  But in this vice presidential debate, she was more than able to stand up to Joe Biden.  It was a big mistake to underestimate her.  She may not have the foreign policy experience yet but it isn’t hard to see how she got to be governor of Alaska and have an 81% approval rating.  She comes across as smart, enthusuastic and tenacious.

I would love to see Sarah debate Brack Obama.  Something tells me she’d wipe the floor with him.  Her crisp concise delivery would be in sharp contrast to his rambling and frequently incoherent one.  As a matter of fact, Obama doesn’t stand up in contrast to anyone very well.  He also needs a lot of assistance from his party.  Everyone is pulling together to help Barack.  Pelosi, Reid and Howard Dean finagled the delegate count and got him nominated.  The whole DNC apparatus has been moved to Chicago to be at his disposal and the money is flowing to his campaign at the expense of others.  Bill Clinton is out stumping for him and is under constant criticism for not doing enough.  Hillary is pulling out all of the stops as well.  The only thing they haven’t demanded of her is that she do Obama’s debates for him.

Obama has every advantage to win this race with all of the training wheels, spotters, helmet, knee and elbow padding and a running push.  The amount of support for a presidential candidate is unprecedented.  Never before has so much been done for so long for so little.  So, why is the race still more or less a statistical tie?  Maybe because he is the weakest candidate the Democrats could have selected and the Clintons are needed to run a pseudo nominees.  But every time I see either of them on the stump for Obama, I am reminded of the glaring weaknesses of Barack Obama.  I get all nostalgic for the Clinton good old days.  And I get angry that it isn’t Hillary running instead of propping up the person who stole her place. It makes me like Obama less.

Why can’t Obama win his voters by himself?  Isn’t that his job now?  If the party was going to rely on and blame Hillary for Obama’s fate, why not put her on the ticket?  Right now, she has a thankless job.  Not only does she have to work overtime to see him win, but she gets no credit for it or her own work.  Her suggestions for the bailout bill were casually brushed aside by Obama and Reid.  Is that the way you’re supposed to treat you most faithful party member?

Obama has a lot to learn from the Clintons about what it takes to truly inspire voters.  He has a lot to learn about how to lose the arrogance and be gracious.  He has a lot to learn when it comes to not insulting voters.  He has to learn to be enthusiastic and engaging and concise like Sarah Palin, who looked last night like she didn’t need help from anybody.

272 Responses

  1. first?

  2. Yes, which means you have to buy the donuts for the rest of us.

  3. BO does have a lot to learn, but he will never learn because he does have so many people helping him, telling him how great he is. And after all, why would he want to change when he’s “the one we’ve been waiting for”.

    I want someone who can truly lead us out of the mess that our country and the world is in right now. BO is not the leader that I am looking for. Hillary is but as the Rolling Stones sang, “You can’t always get what you want”. If I can’t have Hillary, and BO is my only Democrat POTUS choice, then after 32 years of only voting Dems for POTUS, it’s over to McCain/Palin for me so that my vote counts double against BO.

    Donuts – now let’s see, that’s 18 million @ $.50….. Where do you want them delivered?

  4. “Why can’t Obama win voters by himself?” -RD

    Because he has never had to. Hillary won the majority of the Democratic voters in the primary, but the nomination was handed to Obama. This is the general election and Obama is not going to get pushed to the front of the class because he’s so “kewl”. This time he has to earn the respect of voters who rejected him in the primary as well as voters who are wondering if he is prepared to lead this country. Clearly, he is not prepared.

  5. God, that would be great – an obama/palin debate. she would scare him. haha

  6. A new one from kenosha Marge!

    With a little tale to tell….it begins…

    “Long ago in a country far away, which would be the United States back in 2006, the people went to the polls in great numbers and elected their champions to end an evil war and rein in the reign of terror of the evil Emperor and Darth Cheney…

    From The Folks That Gave You GWB and the War In Iraq, Here’s Obama!


  7. I covet Sarah’s shoes.

  8. Two minutes into the Palin/Obama debate:

    BO: “Uh, uh, uh – what Sarah said.”

  9. Hello everybody.

    So what about that performance!!! Pretty impressive for a “this woman”. Just 5 weeks on the job and she nailed it. Obama has been at it for nearly two years and it’s still Uh,uh, uh….Me tooooo!

    I am saying it again: I may not share her views on many subjects but I respect Palin and she got my vote.

  10. “insightanalytical, on October 3rd, 2008 at 8:19 am Said:…..From The Folks That Gave You GWB and the War In Iraq, Here’s Obama! “

    There is no question the same crew that pushed Bush and the war , now want Barry and badly. Every arm at every level is being twisted for this nothing .Everything about Obama that alarms us, they love about him.

  11. So he didn’t get beat up by the “girl” but she held her own! Good for her!
    We keep talking about 2012 – I don’t want to wait til then – I don’t want to be without Hill out in front until 2012 and now I see people taking swipes at her because she’s being a good soldier and supporting the party she’s been a strong part of over the years.
    Let’s noodle on this a bit.

  12. carolflowery–There is nothing Marxist or radical about Obama except the people that he spent his adult years hanging out with. Obama stands for Obama–nothing more. He will do whatever is expedient. That is his real danger. He truly has no core principles.

  13. I think Palin tee’d up the ball for McCain last night. Now it is up to him to let it fly. In my humble opinion, he needs to hit hard on the corruption and oversight theme which she talked so effectively about. He needs to stop talking about being a maverick and fighter and just start doing it by talking specifics!
    I want to hear him condemn the politicization of our government departments – especially Justice – and pledge to clean out the cronies and put in people who are highly competent , not political hacks. He should condemn the treatment of Don Siegelman and promise to appoint apolitical US Attorneys. In fact he should offer Iglesias and the other fired US Attorneys their jobs back. That would be a dramatic move that would get the media’s attention.
    He also needs to talk about oversight of our financial system, transparency, and ENFORCEMENT OF REGULATIONS! He needs to talk about the need for effective regulation for the benefit not only of Joe Sixpack but also of the fat cats who are now finally paying the price for gaming the system. How hard could it be to argue that they bought into foolish beliefs and wound up hurting themselves. He should .espouse a Warren-Buffet style of investing, i.e, putting money in companies that produce quality products and services and have top notch, ethical management.
    Along with this his supporters need to start hitting Obama on his strong ties to crooks such as Rezko and his lying about his relationships with power companies, lobbyists, etc.
    McCain needs to throw caution to the winds and hit this issue as hard as possible. If he loses at least he will be remembered as a fighter against corruption and not a guy who finally caved to political expediency. If there ever was a time the public would respond to this kind of message, it is now.

  14. A very exciting post to open up to, RD. I didn’t see the debates and am looking forward to reading all about it. Morning news said “The Moose is Loose” and were divided on whether Palin was the clear winner (the R commentator) or whether she tied it up (the D commentator).

    On to your post. Once again, exactly! Not to mention I was thinking how the whole first bailout bill in the House was a total set up to send it to the Senate and provide a platform for Obama to take credit for it. I can’t believe I didn’t see it before now, but of course.

    But every time I see either of them on the stump for Obama, I am reminded of the glaring weaknesses of Barack Obama. I get all nostalgic for the Clinton good old days. And I get angry that it isn’t Hillary running instead of propping up the person who stole her place. It makes me like Obama less.

    Not just that, but Obama has, over and over and over again, shown how he despises the Clintons. He disses them, he insults them, he eggs others on to do the same. Addicted to Love played for Bill at the Convention? Really? Meanwhile Obama, Pelosi, the whole gang repeatedly try to co-opt credit for good economic times from the Clintons on behalf of themselves. In my opinion, if Obama gets in, he will see to the total character assassination destruction of the Clintons. There has never been any appreciation, respect or good faith shown by him up to now, and there never will be in the future. No matter how much they stump for him and support him, no matter how many speeches and oaths of total commitment – only brings on the opposite of respect and collegiality. I’ve mentioned it before and I’ll say it again – I have a narcissist in my family and he hates people who help him. He despises it and is motivated to destroy the helper. It’s pathological.

    The story of the Narcissist is the story of the turtle and the scorpion. A turtle is down by the river and meets a scorpion. The scorpion says “please carry me across the river. I need to go to the other side.”

    The turtle says “Why should I trust you? You are poisonous and known for your terrible disposition and vicious nature.”

    The scorpion says, “Because we would be in the river and I can’t swim. We’d both die if I should sting you. That would be crazy!”

    The turtle agrees to carry the scorpion and swims out into the river. They reach mid-river whereupon the scorpion stings the turtle. “Why?” cries the dying turtle.

    “It’s my nature,” says the scorpion.

  15. I thought Sarah did great. I have to be with Pat Johnson this morning and say the media being in the tank for Obi is starting to scare me. The polls look bad for McCain/Palin, now don’t fuss at me yet. I know the polls can be skewed, but damn it, bring out an October surprise and this get this thing nailed up.

  16. Marxist? radical? I think not. Why would Obama have the full backing of the Wall Street investment banks if he were a Marxist? Why would big oil and the nuclear and coal industries be backing him? Give me a break. Obama is a power hungry, authoritarian–closer to fascist than Marxist.

  17. catsinMN, will you fedex me a cruller?

  18. Sarah is the best, I also wish Bill & Hillary would just back out & let Obama be Obama, I still love the Clintons & I believe in turning the other cheek ,but ENOUGH already .

  19. We have been saying that the MSM is underestimating Sarah Palin, and I agree. But I also wonder if we are not underestimating the appeal of Obama. I loathe him, and it truly baffles me that I have friends and colleagues, gay, straight, etc., who find him to be an intellectual (it seems laughable to me), eloquent (uh, um, yknow), liberal (Family Faith and Values tour doesn’t bother them), sincere (FISA was just a booboo and besides we can trust him). I know he gets pumped by the media; I know he gets help from the party apparatus. What I don’t understand is how people I respect can believe that this man is not a totalitarian and an egomaniac who hates America. I thought he made that plain as day! How can he be ahead in Michigan? Is that even true?

    I hope Sarah Palin’s performance helped McCain. I hope the fact that Gwen Ifill has a book coming out on 1-20-09 about Obama doesn’t mean this election is already bought and paid for.

  20. Perries, you are right on about the scorpion and the turtle!

  21. damn, i need those shoes

    from Foxnews:
    October 2nd, 2008 11:49 PM Eastern
    Supporter urges McCain to “take the gloves off”
    by Mosheh Oinounou

    DENVER, CO — The Republican base is starting to get little agitated.

    During his town hall meeting in Denver Thursday afternoon, a female supporter urged McCain to go for Obama’s jugular.

    “When are you going to take the gloves off and just go at him?” a supporter asked the GOP nominee, leading the nearly 1,000 supporters in the crowd to leap to their feet and cheer.

    “How bout Tuesday night,” McCain said, alluding to the next Presidential debate

  22. I posted this on another thread, but thought I’d bring it up here, since it seems that I was all alone down there. On the Equal Pay thing:

    I disagree with McCain on this issue, but he is not against equal pay itself. He is against the unlimited time frame to sue employers contained in that bill, because he feels it could lead to frivolous lawsuits.

    Personally, I think the current 180 day rule to sue is crap, but unlimited may be a bit much for some conservatives to swallow. I’d like to see a compromise bill that allows 5 years or something.

    It’s a bit unfair to say that McCain “doesn’t believe in equal pay for women”. He does, and has said so repeatedly, as well as demonstrated it on his own staff. He has problems with THAT PARTICULAR bill, because he thinks it has problems. That’s not quite the same thing.

    I can disagree and think he’s wrong while still being fair about why he thinks that. Now, with many Repubs I would say that they don’t truly want equal pay, and the whole litigation thing is just a smokescreen and excuse. But McCain has walked the walk – he pays his female staff more, and he put A WOMAN on his ticket. So in this case, I have to give him the benefit of accepting that his objections to the bill are sincere, not a backdoor sexism, even if I think he’s wrong.

  23. Palin did fine, I think she is (or should) be seen as acceptable now, even by the elite media (both liberal and conservative) that has basically called her white trash. What a shame that the American public did not know more about Palin in the first place. The most popular govenor in America should have been a story in the press before now. But because its Alaska the MSM found it trivial and unworthy. How disappointing, one of the main reasons I will be voting against Barry is because the press in this country needs to be taught a lesson…

  24. RD “Obama has every advantage to win this race with all of the training wheels, spotters, helmet, knee and elbow padding and a running push. The amount of support for a presidential candidate is unprecedented. Never before has so much been done for so long for so little.”

    This is the crux of it for me. I’ve seen the “so little” part from the beginning and it has expanded just slightly over 7 months never reaching the presidential point. The DNC’s complicity cuts at my heart and sense of fairness. The rest of the support is mind boggling. As a long time Nothing on top voter, I am more and more pushed toward a not quite presidential material, McCain.

    I thought Joe won on substance and Sarah won on style. Neither would be our president though. I think Joe is far more capable than Obama. Sarah has a better vision for our country than McCain – at least she sees infrastructure and education as important (perhaps an example of the benefits of the 30% solution). I don’t think she’s qualified to be president now, but she’s definitely a winner and ready to lead.

    Thanks RD for keeping us focused on the Zero in the room.

  25. You are right purplefinn and I cannot watch it. They should be able to see through this Milli Vanilli candidate that has been shoved down our throats by the DNC and MSM.

  26. Chimera….

    I think Goerge W Bush has so disgusted and dissappointed the American people as a whole that many will support anything that seems the most differrent…

    The fact that Barry is so unknown problably helps him. The truth is so few people have any real measure of confidence in government, business, or any national leadership as a whole that they will take a huge risk in Obama.

    But I think, or atleast hope, rationality will take hold in time…

    Obama is just too unknown, untested, untried, and unproven to be president!!!

    simple as that…

  27. Hey everyone!

    For those of you who haven’t been paying attention, we have been getting slammed lately for allegedly perpetuating right-wing memes.

    The attacks are unfair and we are dealing with the issue, but it doesn’t help when people come here repeat every anonymous rumor and tabloid story they can find. Some people not only spread the rumors, but they cut and paste the whole enchilada in our comment threads, and then link to a tin-foil hat blog.

    This may not be a fancy-smantzy Ivy-league blog, but we ain’t Jerry Springer either.

    This is a liberal blog and our opposition to Obama is based on provable facts and strongly held principles.

    The Confluence does not get involved with some topics, such as the birth certificate stuff. There are plenty of things to criticize Obama for, but that ain’t one of them.

    IOW, let’s try to make Hillary proud of us by taking the high road, okay?

  28. If you weren’t following the news as closely as we do, you would have expected a ditzy, backwoods, stripper pole loving airhead to arrive on stage for the debate. Instead,, a composed, prepared, and quite a different candidate emerged who took her place like it had been waiting for her arrival

    Maybe Sarah is The One we have been waiting for after all. Why? Because she is one of us. Decent, hard working, priority driven, commonsensical, and without artifice. Do I agree with every position she has staked out? Not by a longshot. The difference is that I trust her to be who she is. She comes without the elitist backings we have been fed over the years as the only types we want to see govern. This is baloney.

    She is meat and potatos which most of us can identify with. This is what is killing those critics who judge quite nicely from their secure ivory towers. Sincerity is something they have not had to deal with before. It has shaken them to their socks.

    What to do with Sarah? Let her be who she is. Compare her to those gaseous windbags who will take to the House Floor today and ask yourselves: is this is as good as it gets?

  29. My Obama supporting friends are just focusing on the issues he mouths and hasn’t reversed himself on yet.

    I think they’re largely voting against McCain.

    They haven’t faced the ugly truth that we don’t have a good candidate this time around thanks to all of the forces RD cites above.

    I am reminded of Ayn Rand’s quote, “We can avoid reality, but we cannot avoid the consequences of avoiding reality.”

  30. Well said, myiq2xu. We also delete inappropriate comments when necessary. Fair warning.

  31. I think Biden tried to copy Gibson and throw Palin off stride by making stuff up.

    She wasn’t buying and he quit trying after the first few exchanges

    What was that she said towards the end? “Say it ain’t so, Joe” or something like that.

  32. myiq2xu…

    I did not read the post about the birth certificate…

    but the whole thing deals with how truly ‘unknown’ Obama is…

    we know very little about Obama, and the fact that the MSM refuses to fully vett him only leads to more conspiracy theories…

  33. Picking Sarah Palin shows just how good McCain’s judgement is. She’s a star and it reflects well on him that he’s happy to be outshone by her because he knows it’s the way to win. There aren’t many presidential nominees whose egos would allow them to make a star out of someone else in their run for the White House – John McCain becomes a much more interesting candidate because he’s done that.

  34. purplefinn, on October 3rd, 2008 at 9:16 am Said:
    My Obama supporting friends are just focusing on the issues he mouths and hasn’t reversed himself on yet…..

    Right…at the moment it’s FISA who? My Obama supporting friends want a Dem…well hell I do too!
    But the only Dem was shoved aside and isn’t on the ticket .

  35. Pat Johnson: “Maybe Sarah is The One we have been waiting for after all. Why? Because she is one of us. Decent, hard working, priority driven, commonsensical, and without artifice.”

    I watched the debate on PBS. During the rehash a historian said that Sarah didn’t deal with the complexities of the issues, but rather relied on common sens – as if it were a bad thing. 🙂

  36. DRII But because its Alaska the MSM found it trivial and unworthy.

    Rant coming on – I agree and it strikes me how ignorant and unappreciative so many of my fellow citizens seem to be about America – its vast scope, its challenges, beauty, diversity, history and culture. Because we are a culture, with huge variations, but like a symphony it all adds up to something big and beautiful. Every single country and culture on earth has a history that includes both achievement, heights, progress and cause for great shame. We aren’t any different, and certainly no worse than any other country. And for our present challenges and disagreements however deep, we continue to not be a Utopia. But again there is no Utopia and it is always upon the living to strive to live up to the best we have in us despite the limitations of current circumstances, both within ourselves, and for each other.

    All those types like Ayers and Wright can step off.

    Personally, I can’t wait to go and see Alaska as soon as the chance comes up.

    My office chair is embroidered with the words “Soap Box.” When did that happen?

  37. Palin made for some good television, that’s all. When she ignored actual questions and went off on rehearsed talking points – albeit with flair – she was making good television. She was not debating. The shoes, the glibness, the winks – all of it was showbiz. Which is fine, I suppose, because the whole affair was being broadcast as television and was obviously received as such.

    Now how does succeeding at generating roughly an hour or so’s worth of amusing television qualify Palin to be Vice President of the United States Of America?

    Come on, people!

  38. Elitism is not about assets its about attitude…

  39. We know who we are. We are not sheep who blindly follow and mindlessly applaud our Party just because. We call out those who have snookered and manipulated us into this position and as such, we are perceived as a threat to the victory of The One.

    I think the constant drumbeat and sanctioning of everything Bush by his own party without serious criticism from within has made us aware that this type of “sheeple” attitude is not healthy. This is one of the reasons why I distrusted them for so long. Everyone is subject to criticism but when you blindly sign on, and allow no room for dissent, you lose all credibility. We are now faced with the same issues in our own party. For us to outright challenge the status quo invites incredulity from those who believe that one must be onboard at all times. It is unnerving to discover that not all of us Dems are as acquiescent.

    Had people from within the Repub establishment put a halt to some of Bush’s policies, it may have produced far more trust in our leadership. As it is, we look askance as to how we arrived at this juncture and shout out “enough”.

  40. TheRealKim, on October 3rd, 2008 at 9:07 am Said:
    You are right purplefinn and I cannot watch it. They should be able to see through this Milli Vanilli candidate that has been shoved down our throats by the DNC and MSM.

    lol TRK, maybe some Obots still own Milli Vanilli CDs from back in the day.

  41. bradmaysfilmmaker, I said that she won on style. But I am not foolish enough to think that style is all that there is to Palin. You underestimate her. She would do what she says she would do. She and McCain have that kind of resolve.

  42. I know for a fact that there are lots of people reading what we write here in the comment threads but not participating.

    Some of them don’t like us, and they are looking for stuff to use against us.

    I’m not innocent and pure either, My favorite pastime is snarking and sometimes I slip over the line a little bit. Occaisionally I totally obliterate the line..

    My sense of humor is a little too much for some citified folk.

  43. purplefinn,

    I do not underestimate Palin. You underestimate the magnitude of the office of Vice President.

  44. bradmaysfilmmaker…

    your argument against Sarah Palin completely dismisses Obama….

    He is largely just fluff also…

    completely untested and unproven…

    being a very fresh freshman senator with a George Jefferson stride who can speak does not qualify you for president IMO…

  45. myiq2xu,

    Those Corrente folks have really gone around the bend. Sarah thinks that Joe Biden is a “gunslinger,” and that Joe Lieberman is the other Senator from Delaware. I need to go over there more often. It’s getting a lot more entertaining as they slurp more koolaid.

  46. Bradmays
    How does a few years in the Senate qualify Obama to be PRESIDENT?
    you have two minutes.

  47. “My sense of humor is a little too much for some citified folk.”

    And some countrified folk like moi. 🙂 However, you’re definitely growing on me. And your humor is just the touch we need so often.

  48. bradmaysfilmmaker: Sarah Palin had to show the public that she was not channeling a Tina Fey impersonation. Many out there have been convinced that she is one step above Britney Spears. She had 90 minutes to make her case, half of which had to be shared with a noted and experienced opponent.

    At least give her credit for being able to hold her own in this atmosphere. A lot was riding on the fact that she had to first overcome perception and I believe she acquitted herself under the circumstances. Can we compare her to a Hillary performance? Absolutely not. Few would be able to jump that hurdle. But she did fine. And I doubt she will be one who is relegated to the corner in policies meetings as was Condi Rice. Sarah Palin has a voice.

  49. bradmaysfilmmaker, on October 3rd, 2008 at 9:29 am Said:


    I do not underestimate Palin. You underestimate the magnitude of the office of Vice President.


    What about the office of President?

  50. bradmays,

    Obama frequently ignores the questions too (as do many other politicians), but he doesn’t do it with the slightest bit of flair. Sarah may be a right winger, but she does have a sense of humor. I really wish someone on the Democratic ticket had one.

  51. DRII,

    I’m not talking about Obama. What does Palin’s ability to shine on TV have to do with Obama? I agree that Obama is a wretched choice for President, and that he beat out a far superior opponent. What does ANY of that have to do with Palin and her shoes?

    I’m voting Nader.

  52. How does 140 days of flip-flopping on every issue qualify you to be POTUS?

  53. brad
    time’s up.

  54. Brad:

    You do realize that all candidates train for debates and rehearse talking points, don’t you?

    It took Obama lots of debates (20+) to reach is current proficiency level.

    He was horrid in the early debates. That was Palin’s first try, and she is already Obama’s equal if not superior.

    Please ask Axelrod for better talking points, this first one he gave you is weak.

  55. bradmaysfilmmaker, I don’t know how anyone is established as “qualified” to be a presidential or VP candidate, but since about 1816 it hasn’t been an issue. It arises in this campaign b/c for once we had a person who put her credentials out there as resume for the job. Hillary showed us she was qualified. When is the last time that happened? Never. For everyone else, it has been about some sort of appeal: heroism, in some cases, money in others. Sarah Palin is a politician, governor of a state. What qualified George Bush, Sr. never mind GWB? JFK? LBJ was qualified, but that’s not why he got in. What disqualifies her? That seems the more relevant question, and the answer is, Nothing disqualifies her.

  56. “Can we compare her to a Hillary performance?”

    Pat, it seems too limiting to compare Sarah to Hillary. Woman to woman.? None of these candidates are Hillary Clinton.

    How about Reagan? Harry Truman?

  57. I hate to sound girly but Sarah’s outfit was DA BOMB. The way it fitted, she looked really good. Did she get new glasses? Her suit was amazing. Love the flag pin and the shoes, ah the shoes. One thing I noticed about Sarah is that she wears stylish clothes that are not the standard issue red or black suit that most Repub women wear.

    I am a fashionista , can’t you tell?

    Great Debate! Love the shoes! Prada?

  58. bradmaysfilmmaker, who’s Nader’s VP?

  59. Palin drank O’Biden’s milkshake.

    (Oh, dear, that sounds lewd. Somebody slap me.)

  60. Ok, Mr. Filmaker. Give us a list of the ten most important reasons why Sen. Obama would make a good president. Frankly, I’ve seen two years worth of poor television about him and haven’t heard one good reason yet.

  61. Brad:

    You are a Naderite?

    Please thank Ralph for the last eight years. Without his help we would have been stuck with Al Gore.

  62. catarina,

    Sorry, that was a bullshit question. I was talking about PALIN, not OBAMA. I nevefr claimed Obama to be qualified to be president.

    My post was about creating TELEVISION.

  63. brad: I think you might be missing the point. Many of us have such a visceral reaction to an Obama win that we have to look elsewhere. That leaves McCain overall if Obama is to be eliminated. Most of us here don’t have much stomach or enthusiasm for him but we are attempting to find something in him to quiet our unease.

    Palin is the other half of the ticket. She appears acceptable. If we do find ourselves in the voting booth still questioning our choice, at least she comes across as sincere and real. This makes it a little less painful since she has more substance than what we had expected. I may be speaking only for myself, but this is what helped to shape my opinion.

  64. myiq2xu, on October 3rd, 2008 at 9:39 am Said:

    Please thank Ralph for the last eight years. Without his help we would have been stuck with Al Gore.


    So true! 😥

  65. OK Brad…

    I assumed you were bashing Palin in order to somehow defend Obama…

    sorry, my bad

    but again Palin was acceptable in that debate last night…

  66. All Afro American Gal,

    Me too! I loved her outfit, and I noticed the shoes the minute she walked out onstage. One of the things I just loved about having Hillary as a candidate was waiting to see what outfit she would wear each time I saw her. It would have been so much fun to have a woman President {{ sob }} just because the outfits would be so much more interesting.

    I can’t believe how much I miss Hillary, and it really makes my heart ache to hear her praise Obama.

  67. bradmaysfilmmaker, I repeat, who’s Nader’s VP?

  68. myiq2xu,



    When did I claim Obama would be a good president?

  69. purplefinn,

    What’s your point?

  70. brad: In all honesty, would any of us be contemplating a McCain/Palin or a Nader ticket if Hillary were our nominee? That’s all I am saying. We lost her. We have to move on. I just do not want the DNC rewarded in any way, shape, or form.

  71. Well said, as usual, Pat. I am searching for reasons to like McCain and Palin. Voting for Nader or McKinney isn’t going to defeat Obama. I still don’t know if I can vote for a Repub. I’ll find out when I get in that voting booth.

  72. I’m giving you the opportunity to demonstrate that Nader has a VP that is more qualified than you deem Palin to be. Go ahead.

  73. DrII,

    I didn’t bash Palin. I merely pointed out that she made for good television, and that was ALL she did last night.

  74. Pat Johnson, on October 3rd, 2008 at 9:44 am


  75. purplefinn: I think brad is struggling as much as the rest of us. Please keep that in mind.

  76. Brad
    Palin provided us more that good tellie.
    For a newbie to hold her own like that one has to wonder what else she is capable of.
    Her stamina alone is to be commended after what the media has put her and her family through.
    She’s a tough cookie and a quick study and she doesn’t back down.

  77. Brad seems to think we are McCain supporters.

    I am not supporting anyone in the election, but until recently I was going to vote for McKinney.

    But if recent stories are true, she done took a wrong turn at the corner of Crazy and Insane.

  78. What is your point, brad? What is your reasoning in voting for Nader? I’m not sure what state you live in. If it’s CA, then your vote for Nader is reasonable. For those who live in swing states, the decision is harder. I’m not sure how MA will go yet. I’m waiting to see.

  79. I was very hesitant to watch the debate last night based on all the anti-Palin hype pushed by the MSM. But I got up the courage to watch and I am so glad I did. I thought she was delightful. She really connected with the viewers. McCain chose the right person as VP!

    BTW, the MSM has been ruthlessly pushing the polls in the “battleground states” for the last couple of days. At first I was really worried when they showed Obama ahead in Florida. But then a local news station began interviewing people about what they thought about Obama being ahead in Florida.
    The overwhelming answer was “I am really surprised.” If Obama is really ahead in a state, should it come as a surprise to the voters of that state? Wouldn’t you think that they would already know this, since the majority would be Obama supporters? After this, I no longer find the polls credible.

  80. someone please get me out of the dungeon

  81. purplefinn,

    Since when do you get to control the terms of an argument I’m not even making? My voting for Nader has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that I can’t stand the tickets offered by either the Republican or Democratic Parties.

  82. Brad:

    What did Biden do last night?

  83. Brad, I am also voting 3rd party, for McKinney/Clemente. Voting for Nader/Gonzalez is also good. I think they should both have been included in the debates. I don’t think either is going to win, so I am glad Palin did well. I guess people asked whether Dan Quayle was qualified and made fun of him a lot, but not nearly as often as that question is asked about Palin. So ya gotta wonder, what’s behind it?

  84. Brad:

    Who is your ideal candidate?

  85. well, well, looks like Paul Lukasiak has the same advice for Mandos as I did:

    that someone who is slavishly devoted to a candidate who ran a campaign based on false accusations of racism against Hillary Clinton taking pride in finding supposed “dog whistles”?

    Everybody’s a racist except for Obama supporters, right Mandos?

    Go fuck yourself.

  86. myiq2xu,

    At the moment? Hillary Clinton.

  87. Bradmays: I would probably hold my nose, again, and vote for Biden, if he were at the top pf the ticket, with Obama as VP. I would have voted Dodd and held my nose. But Barack Obama is frightening, he has no experience, his cult following scares me, and his desire to be all things to all people.

    Those lurking and waiting to pounce to denounce me and call me horrid things should know that I flipflopped to Hillary after dedicating 7 months of my time to Obama last year. I was once a koolaid drinker, but unlike many Obama supporters, I did my research and decided he is not ready in these tumultuous times.

  88. I think it has been clearly established on this blog that although it is a site that does not promote Obama, whatever we do in November, vote,not vote, is our choice and ours alone to make.

    Whoever someone decides to support should not be subject to ridicule or derision. These are difficult decisions that we are facing and we need to qualify our choice to anyone. Our common goal is to prevent Obama from ever reaching the Oval Office. How that is accomplished is an individual choice and should be treated as such.

  89. RD, I respectfully disagree. As much as I love Sarah Palin’s fortitude and enthusiasm my take was she was overrehearsed and cutesy. Once I was able to filter out the winks, nods, “dog gone it”s and tongue clicks I found her message to be forced and from rote. Since they were given the questions in advance and there was no counter comments, I can only judge her on her memory and delivery.

    She’s trying too hard. I wish they’d leave her alone and let her be herself. That terrific woman who stepped on the stage w/ John McCain.

    I certainly don’t think Biden helped Obama but he certainly didn’t hurt him and I think his criteria was to be strong w/out attacking Palin.

  90. Brad, we all feel that way!

  91. elixir, they were not given the questions in advance. Ifill specifically stated that before the debate began.

  92. brad

    my previous comment to you has disappeared.

    first, why is it a bullshit question?
    Why don’t the same standards of scrutiny apply to Obama?

    I’m in awe of Palin.
    She’s no intellectual-so what?
    Is she tough?
    I’d say so, after what the media has put her through these
    past few weeks.
    She didn’t back down-not from the media, Biden, or the oil companies and members of her own party she took on in Alaska.
    That’s courage.
    She has guts. I can’t say that about the guy who wants the “big job”

  93. TheRealKim,

    I agree with you about Obama. But I get the feeling that you somehow think that I’m for him.

  94. Bostonboomer (Go Red SOX!!!) I love shopping at Louis Boston 😉

    I miss Hillary too. Hillary is doing what she needs to do to avoid character assassination from the verbal snipers on Kool Aid Mountain. Obama takes out anyone in his way. He and his followers especially love waging smear campaigns against anything with a uterus that stands in his way. This goes WAY back to Alice Palmer in Chicago. The Kool Aid Mountain folk are already screaming traitor at Bill Clinton’s “tepid” support of the anointed one.They want Hill and Bill to join them in their low ball tactics, but they won’t.

    On the fashion topic. Someone should have told Michelle Obama that dresses made of table cloths were not appropriate for debate attire. When she stepped on stage to meet BO I was like “what is hell is she wearing?” Prints, bad idea!. The image makers are trying to make them into a modern day Camelot. Michelle ain’t NO JACKIE O. But keep at it Obamabots because the Obamas come out looking like the typical politicians. Nope, no change here.

  95. bradmaysfilmmaker: “My voting for Nader has nothing to do with anything other than the fact that I can’t stand the tickets offered by either the Republican or Democratic Parties.”

    Got it. That’s the only reason I’d vote Nader as well. I see Ralph as having integrity even though I think he’s lacking on social issues. Except that I’m leaning toward not being able to stand Obama more. And a Nader vote wouldn’t be enough to make a difference. McCain/Palin have some integrity in spite of their being politicians.

  96. debate is like a sport. one way to tell who won is by looking at how often each one was on offense of defense. Biden was most definitely on defense most of the evening, and Palin was on offense. She is also a shrewd debater in that if your opponent attacks you, you don’t waste your time debunking him (you can do that afterwards) that puts you on defense. you let it slide off your back and use your precious time to attack your opponent. Debate is not about who knows what best. its about connecting with the audience. Ask any lawyer, do they want to impress the intellectual judge, or the joe blow juror?

  97. bradmaysfilmmaker, on October 3rd, 2008 at 9:24 am Said:

    “Now how does succeeding at generating roughly an hour or so’s worth of amusing television qualify Palin to be Vice President of the United States Of America? ”

    brady, it is not, never was, and never will be about qualifications. To say so indicates to me you are searching for reasons to reject Palin rather than qualifications being a reason. We could go through this endlessly – what qualifies BO to be President leaps aut as a big one.

    However it is not and never will be, about qualifications. So far as I’m aware there isn’t a qualification spec for POTUS (oh, except for being a natural-born citizen, which test BO fails).

    It is about perception. The perception that individuals have that a candidate is the one (whoops “Teh ONE” in BO’s case) or that the time is right for a change.

    So, I think your comments about qualifications are superficial, and are there just to rationalize your pre-existing dislike of Sarah Palin, which is your choice, your perception, and you’re entitled to it. But spare us from dressing it up as a reasoned argument based on “qualifications”.

  98. AAAGirl

    that was one cringe-worthy table cloth 😉

    when this election is over I’m going back to the fashion blogs (maybe I won’t wait that long..) and I hope I don’t see MO there.
    They don’t call her “Tacky-O” for nothin’..

  99. Voting for someone without a chance in hell of winning is in my opinion a cop out and doesn’t make you “superior” to those who are willing to make the hard choice.


  100. Both tickets, and the third party candidates as well, are goddamned disasters. This is why we are all so conflicted. This was the year that I was to be a full Hillary supporter, knocking on doors, working the phones, driving voters to the polls, holding coffee hours, etc. Did not happen.

    Instead we are left sifting through and trying to determine who is the least offensive candidate in the lot. It is much like trying to pick the one car in a sea of lemons that will at least get us off the lot.

    Not easy.

  101. catarina,

    I didn’t post anything about Obama, so why are you acting as if I did? What does your list of questions have to do with anything I’ve said in here this morning? Your Nader Vice President question was bullshit because it was completely arbitrary to the discussion I thought I was having in here and was asked only as a cheap way of scoring a non-existent point.

    But to answer it, I don’t know who Nader’s running mate is. It could be Spongebob Squarepants and I’d still consider Nader a better moral choice than either Obama or McCain, if not a particularly pragmatic one.

  102. No, I don’t Brad. I know who you are. You are working with Murphy to get the documentary made, right?

    What I am saying is that I am probably going to be physically ill if I have to push that button for McCain.

    As Pat so eloquently put it, it is my choice and I have to live with it. I now live in SC, and I may not have to vote for McCain since we are so red, but if forced I will do it. Can I vote for Nader? No. He put us in this mess by f&*king up the last two elections. Can I go McKinney? No, I wanted to, but she has gone off the deep end yet again. This sucks for all of us, we just have to muddle through it in our own way.

  103. Pat: “It is much like trying to pick the one car in a sea of lemons that will at least get us off the lot.”

    True, but ouch!

  104. Urge, have i told you today that i love you?

    spare us, indeed.

    all the screams of “she’s not qualified are falling on my deaf ears.
    I think it’s a lot of media-generated spew.

    Sarah had me at the speech without benefit of teleprompter.

  105. When I first to began to realize the Hillary was going to lose the nomination I didn’t think that I could vote for a Republican so I looked to the Green Party. I still consider myself a McKinney supporter and send her money every pay day. But since Virginia is now being called a swing state I’m going to vote McCain/Palin. And, truthfully, I’m feeling very good about it. It’s my personal act of sedition against the (un)Democratic Party. Plus, with Palin on the ticket I can maintain my commitment to the 30% solution. So it’s a vote I will be happy to cast.

  106. I would much rather have Sarah Palin in my corner than any one of the other 3.

  107. Another thing we have to consider is that John McCain will be a one term POTUS. Barack Obama will try for a second term, which means Hillary will not be given the chance to run in ’12 and her opportunity will be forever gone.

  108. brad, wrong commenter
    i didn’t mention Nader.

  109. Elixer:

    As Palin herself pointed out, she’s only been in this race for 5 weeks. I’d say that makes her performance very impressive.

    Hillary is awesome in debates, but she’s had lots of practice. So have Biden and McCain.

    Obama has been campaigning for nearly two years and has done over 20 real debates in that time. As Senators, McCain, Obama and Biden deal with stuff that a governor does not, so they should have an advantage in those areas.

    BTW – Obama’s favorite debate answer is to agree with his opponent

  110. and i find your excessive use of the word “bullshit” rather dismissive.

  111. urgetocompute,

    I’m not in here to change minds or win arguments. I made a simple statement about Palin’s television appearence. Palin seems like a nice enough pe4rson, and I have nothing against her, per se, except to the extent that I do not share many of her political views.

    What I find baffling is the degree to which so many in this room seem inclined to take my original post not at face value, but as code for something else.

    And why are you calling me “Brady?” I suppose that is snark or something?

  112. OT, but on the blog that referred to us as ra*cists, there are no comments included. Apparently this can be perceived as just another “drive by” dump and not open to opposing points of view. In other words, I can say what I please in public but I reserve the right to quelch any dissent to my lofty opinions. Interesting.

  113. catarina,

    I was answering your 9:53 question, in which you also used the word you dismiss me for.

  114. Brad: We have been ridiculed, called r@cists, republicans and everyother vile name in the book. That is why most of us are here. Forgive us if we are hypersensitive.

  115. As for the issue of the minimum qualifications and experience to be VP, by any reasonable standard Dick Cheney was well qualified for the job.

    ‘huff said

  116. that’s me quoting you brad.

  117. Also there is a thread that discusses the 30% solution. I don’t know if you are familiar with it, but to simplify it, we need 30% of our politicians to be women to get rid of the misogyny. Some of us are becoming single issue voters in order to do this.

  118. Brad: We have been ridiculed, called r@cists, republicans and everyother vile name in the book. That is why most of us are here. Forgive us if we are hypersensitive.
    or just annoyed

  119. Pat Johnson, on October 3rd, 2008 at 10:07 am
    Pat I noticed that as well. I think it’s a safe bet a bunch were submitted. lol!

  120. TheRealKim,

    I am making a documentary film ABOUT all of you. And I must say that my simple, non-attack post this morning was met with almost exactly the same level of hostility I would expect to find in an anti-PUM site.

  121. OT — Have you guys seen this new “obama youth” video over at Sugar N Spice?


  122. bradmaysfilmmaker, on October 3rd, 2008 at 10:00 am Said:


    I didn’t post anything about Obama, so why are you acting as if I did? What does your list of questions have to do with anything I’ve said in here this morning? Your Nader Vice President question was bullshit because it was completely arbitrary to the discussion I thought I was having in here and was asked only as a cheap way of scoring a non-existent point.

    But to answer it, I don’t know who Nader’s running mate is. It could be Spongebob Squarepants and I’d still consider Nader a better moral choice than either Obama or McCain, if not a particularly pragmatic one.”

    Brad your comments this morning are indicating to me that you are suffering a – hopeful temporary – logic deficit. People here engage in vigorous, but respectful argument. It’s what makes this site strong.
    First you attribute a remark to someone who did not make it – no biggy, we all have those moments. But then you fail to see the point that you are the one who raised the issue of qualifications for a VP being so important, yet you do not even know who Nader’s VP pick is! So, if I follow this line: McCain’s VP matters because she has no qualifications, but Nader’s VP doesn’t matter because you don’t know who he is.

    In my experience on this site, people are sharp. They can smell a rat a thousand miles away.

    What I smell is that you think McCain/Palin have a good shot at winning this, so you better pour more sh*t on Sarah Palin, but you know in your heart that Nader has a snowball’s chance in hell, so what does it matter who is VP is? This, will give you a warm glow of moral superiority, over the rest of us who have to make very hard choices because our – now listen up – supremely qualified candidate was railroaded off the ticket.

    If I’m wrong, please correct me.

  123. Brad:

    If you were here in the trenches with us since the beginning of the year you would understand our quick on the trigger reactions.

    Obama supporters are not content to express their hatred and contempt for us from a distance, but instead feel compelled to get in our faces.

    When we left the blogs that were our original hangouts and came here to get away from them, they followed us like brain eating zombies in a horror movie.

  124. Sorry if you feel offended by anything I said Brad. It was not intended by me to be that way.

  125. Palin beat Biden so badly that I *almost* started to feel sorry for him — but then I remembered Anita Hill, and I got over it.

    Anyone who can say with a straight face that the debate was a “tie” is a pathological liar.

  126. votermom: That video is one scary piece of trash. Jeebus!

  127. House Repubs, including John Boehner, giving a press conference on FOX re: vote today. There was a question of them killing the vote on a technicality. Instead, they are signaling that “it is time to act for the American people, the bill is not perfect, but we must deal with this credit crunch and we are optimistic.”

    Vote continues to floor. Sounds like they know they will have the votes.

  128. AAA Gal: “Someone should have told Michelle Obama that dresses made of table cloths were not appropriate for debate attire. When she stepped on stage to meet BO I was like “what is hell is she wearing?” Prints, bad idea!.”


    Oh, was that a tablecloth? I thought it was kitchen curtains. LOL! That dress would have been appropriate at a pot luck picnic.

  129. Let’s see if the House plays “one upmanship” and ladles even more gravy onto the Senate bill. I mean, what’s another billion here or there. Chump change.

  130. I’m tired of moral choices…I made them as a Dem for 35 years . It’s too late for ” moral ” choices…..Because a Dem is not running , one has to pick out the least offensive of those who are , that would be, for me, McCain/ Palin .

    They aren’t of the Bush GOP. If they were the press would love them . But the press love Barry. That’s enough for me to know he’s bad for 99.999 of the population and IMO the wrong choice . In this the press is an infallible guide. Press + wants = bad .

  131. they followed us like brain eating zombies in a horror movie

    Love me some myiq in the morning!

  132. I thought her dress was made from couch covers. I had a pattern like that some years ago in my den.

  133. Obama is “dirty”. We all know that. It has just not been fully exposed.

  134. “I covet Sarah’s shoes.”

    And her SUIT!!! I love suits and hers was beautiful! It fit her perfectly and she has such a great figure.

    OK, had to get my girly-Elle-reading-shoe-squealing side out for a moment. Reading or talking about the bailout bill has become too depressing to bear.

    p.s. Sarah did great.

  135. Brad, this is our safe haven. Many of us are former DailyKos, and TL people. I worked on the OffTheBus project for Huffpost until it became unbearable. I was abused every time I posted anything. We are suspect of newcomers because of this.

  136. anybody knows where to find how many women are in congress and follow their re-election or election bids?

    I’have a feeling taht if obama wins this is going to be a bad year for women in politics. Two losses in a row, Hillary and maybe Palin wont do any good for women in politics. and the media has had so much fun make fun of them because their are women that i bet it will translate to make fun of downticket women as well

  137. People who are saying Biden won on “substance” sorry — I have to disagree — he misrepresented Obama’s record, McCain’s record & even his own record several times — that, right there, means he didn’t win on substance.
    The fact is Palin last night did better then Biden, Obama or McCain in any debate they’ve had. She was personable, energetic and able to explain her positions clearly & concisely. The only person who could have taken her on is Hillary — and because of Obama’s stupidity, that is this country’s loss.

  138. Guys, I don’t think she was that great. I mean, she didn’t get eaten up, and she held her own, but Hillary would have mopped the floor with her. I like her and I think for only 5 weeks, she was much better than I had hoped for, but she said Maverick way too much and sounded rehearsed at times. When she just let her real self through was when she was good.

  139. Sarah “won” because she held our interest. The other three put me to sleep when they are on. When a candidate holds your attention they have crossed the biggest hurdle. Whether you agree with them or not, they are getting through.

  140. I have a few shirts similar to the color pattern of MO’s dress.

    They’re great because food stains blend in, and most of the foods I eat are greasy and involve a tomato-based sauce like ketchup, salsa or spaghetti sauce.

  141. Also, Sarah Palin came off against 36 year DC insider hack Biden (sorry, that is what he is) as the real “agent of change” and the opposite of a DC insider.

  142. Right now, she has a thankless job. Not only does she have to work overtime to see him win, but she gets no credit for it or her own work.

    I even heard that the NY Post had a report this week that claimed Clinton critics felt “she wasn’t doing enough,” and the reason was due to the fact that Hillary “demanded” a Supreme Court nomination and Obama “balked.”

    1. She isn’t doing ENOUGH?! Have you ever seen another candidate campaign for the nominee in every key battleground state–repeatedly?!
    2. Her campaign said the assertion was “preposterous etc.


  143. She will not be Hillary anytime soon. It seems a really unfair standard to hold her to so soon after entering the national stage.

  144. That is what I was trying to reflect Pat, she did hold my interest. If it had been another talking head I would have fallen asleep. One thing I do like about her is the no-nonsense approach. Most women who are mothers and work have that no-nonsense approach, we have to because we don’t have time to deal with BS.

  145. Peggy Noonan has a funny line about Palin last night in WSj http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122300786229301597.html:

    Sarah Palin saved John McCain again Thursday night. She is the political equivalent of cardiac paddles: Clear! Zap! We’ve got a beat! She will re-electrify the base. More than that, an hour and a half of talking to America will take her to a new level of stardom. Watch her crowds this weekend. She’s about to get jumpers, the old political name for people who are so excited to see you they start to jump.

    Which manages to be push the McCain is old and has one foot in the grave meme. The MSMS really hates her but she’s star anyway. Heh.
    I’d probably be a jumper. She is exciting.

  146. Man, I just realized something. I bought those same shoes last weekend! Oh hell yah.

  147. I know everyone has to be comfortable with their vote. Or at least a degree of comfort. Most of of us find ourselves in the position of voting for the Least Offensive candidate instead of the candidate we really want.

    And most of us may have to hold our noses. I will be voting for McCain. My vote for McCain is not a vote for McCain but a vote against Obama. And the only way, in my mind, to really vote against Obama is to really pull the lever for McCain. Neither Nader or McKinney has a chance of winning. They are just a second degree of protest.

    And for those of you who are commenting about being sickenend at the thought of voting McCain, how sick will you feel if Obama wins and Hillary is then off the radar forever. And how would you feel in those swing states, like I am in, if it only came down to a few votes.

    I am not only afraid to vote for Obama, I am afraid NOT to vote for McCain.

  148. TheRealKim: no one is saying, including RD in the post, that she is in the same league as Hillary Clinton. HRC has been doing this for a long time, and knows how to speak publicly and parry insults and lies. Palin, though a Mayor & Governor, was thrust into this high voltage situation only 5 weeks ago and had to debate a 35 yr. Senator. To do as well as she did is amazing. She is only 44 years old. It’s the raw political talent and the gift to communicate that is resonating with people, myself included. She can learn the policy information–you cannot teach talent.

  149. This is a “placeholder election” (I coined that phrase) for me. It means that we have two very bad choices and one of them (Obama) is worse than the other. Choosing Obama also rules out a revisit and course correction in 4 years. Choosing Obama means condoning everything bad that happened in this election. For those three reasons, I will do everything to DEFEAT Obama, his minions including the media and the corrupt congress that brought him to us when there was a real candidate. In Obama’s defeat I see defeating a lot unsavory characters within the Democratic party. In defeating Obama if I have to elect McCain, so be it. It is a temporary 4-year situation and this is a “placeholder election.” I am voting for McCain.

  150. urgetocompute,

    I am a filmmaker. I came in here to make a post about Palin’s ability to create a series of glib, effective television moments. I then went on to say that generating television moments has little to do with the actual job of being Vice President of the United States. I didn’t see anyone else in here making that point, so I did. Now, AS A FILMMAKER, I am not out to change anyone’s mind or win any arguments. I express myself best through my work, but in here this morning I thought I had something worthwhile to contribute as someone who knows a bit about making television, which I do.

    I did not attack Palin. I don’t think she’s an ideal Vice Presidential candidate, but I don’t actively dislike her, nor did I say anything in here which could reasonably indicate any dislike. Now my original point about Palin vis-a-vis television doesn’t equal support for Obama, misogyny, or anything else I’ve subsequently been accused of.

    I cannot vote for McCain, Palin or no Palin, any more than I can vote for Obama. It’s a sad situation, but there it is.

  151. votermom

    I don’t know what to say, that video is so strange. Wow.
    Thanks for link.

  152. The Obots are complaining that Palin is all style over substance — bless their hearts — they have no idea of what irony means.

  153. When they ask a question about what will you do in (name the country over there) I close down. Nobody knows what they are going to do. It is an admixture of actors in that part of the world who are playing for keeps. This is their neighborhood and we are looking for a way out.

    The president is up against militant mullahs, fanatical followers, thieving chieftains, soft military leaders, corrupt politicians, and shaky empires. All want a piece of the pie. Dealing with these connivers will take the wisdom of Solomon and a diplomat of such skill as we have yet to encounter.

    So saying this or that about our strategy is empty rhetoric. We do not drive the vehicle. It is being driven for us.

  154. votermom: actually Peggy Noonan is pure Republican. I don’t think she was pushing the McCain is old meme, though he’s probably not conservative enough for her. She was one of Reagan’s speechwriters.

  155. Kim, I think we’re all too smart for our own good. When they prep for these things you can be sure that they run focus groups and find out how many times she has to say “maverick” or “tax and spend” for it to stick in the listeners head. That wasn’t a mistake, it was on purpose. I used to feel the same about Hillary repeating “Hillaryclinton.com” over and over…then I realized she was doing the same thing. Don’t think for a second that either of them went in without this kind of prep. Biden lost because he strayed from the script, and when he does that he says really stupid, and untrue things.

  156. Even Fox is running the Obama spin. That Biden won on substance and that Palin had no reat details. No comments or discussion of Bidens lies, exaggerations and half truths. Color me surprised – Not!

  157. I refuse to vote for Obama. It feels like all of his surrogates except him has asked me for to vote for him. But he refuses to ask me for his vote, instead he’s gone out of the way to make sure I won’t vote for him. First he threw UHC under the bus with Harry & Louise ads. Then he showed his audacious mysogyny before millions of viewers, repeatedly. Then he threw FISA under the bus. Then he threw HOLC under the bus.

    So I was going to vote Green party but this Sarah lady keeps asking for my vote so nicely.

  158. TheRealKim,

    I’m hardly a “newcomer.” I spent the entire summer traveling around the country filming “The Audacity Of Democracy,” which I am now editing. I’ve spent significant time with Riverdaughter one-on-one, and it was to her that my original post in here this morning was, in the main, directed.

    I’m still bewildered how anything I said in that post could be taken for an enemy attack.

    Have a good day, everyone. It’s been real.

  159. NH — that is ok — people saw for themselves how much the press “lies” after their hatchet job on Palin for the last 5 weeks.

  160. Obot Burton on FOX.

    Solution: mute.

  161. Brad, believe it or not, we all feel the same pain that you do. We have no one to vote for and it makes us crazy.

    Fif: We have to stop being so damn defensive, especially to each other. She held our interest, she held her own, she was no HRC.

  162. Kim:

    I consider my situation similar to a sports fan who’s favorite team has already been eliminated and who is watching from the sidelines.

    I am no longer participating in reflexive partisan loyalty (Democrats good, GOP evil) but I am instead watching as an outsider.

    Any rooting I may do for McCain/Palin is because I want to see Obama defeated.

    If McCain wins I will spend the next four years focused on getting Hillary elected in 2012

  163. Interesting:

    Britain found itself thrown into the US presidential election after the leak of a letter from its ambassador to Washington, Sir Nigel Sheinwald, offering a frank assessment of Barack Obama, commenting on his inexperience and aloofness as well as his intelligence and “star quality”.

    The leak of the seven-page letter to Gordon Brown undermines British efforts to abide by the convention of neutrality in US elections.

    The letter is mainly complimentary about Obama but also highlights his perceived weaknesses. Sheinwald wrote that Obama “does betray a highly educated and upper middle class mindset”. He adds that accusations of elitism “are not entirely unfair” and he is “maybe aloof, insensitive” at times.


  164. I am in SC I do not have to vote for McCain he will win my state easily, however I will vote for McCain anyway to take away that vote for Obama. I am an American 1st, 2nd and last. I will wait till 2012 on Hillary.

  165. NH: I watched FOX last night and this morning, and they are heaping praise on Palin and showing lots of commentators who agree.

  166. Palin did much more than just better TV last night. She seems to have great political instincts and excellent timing. She is rough around the edges but that can be smoothed out with a couple years of experience in DC and on the national stage. Republicans have found their star (and the Dems found their fraud). Republicans unlike Democrats know this and they will protect her and groom her because they know they have a winner. The fact that she is a woman is not going to bother them because they are all about winning. The fact that she is a woman is good for democracy. Democratic women so called feminists crying foul lost their big opportunity and have no right to say anything on this matter, at least for now.

  167. Morning peeps!!

    I was so happy last night-she did a great job. Today, after thinking too much and remembering the major rule of elections–that ultimately, people vote their pocketbooks, I am despondant again. The econ. is sooo bad, that my cat (if she had a D. after her name) would be elected. Right now, the econ. is killing McCain. Another gift from George Bush to McCain.

  168. My vote too is a referendum against the DNC and Obama. A message needs to be sent. The next time you deign to “choose” my candidate for me, be sure he/she is qualified at least.

  169. why do women democrat commentators have such a good time tearing Palin up? It seems like they do it with glee and enjoyment??

    why is taht? i really liked Ferraro yesterday when she said that although she agreed with biden’s democratic statements she felt good that Palin did good.

  170. myiq: Ditto

    The only problem is we have to wait four more years to see our team play again and if BO wins, she may be sidelined forever.

  171. RealKim: Did you think my post was defensive? It was intended that way at all. I was just giving my p.o.v. I think that after weeks of media bashing and deliberately edited videos, the public was prepared to see a complete bimbo up there, and her confidence, strength, and knowledge–though obviously not comprehensive–really surprised many.

  172. Hey Brad:

    I understand what you are saying. And I actually don’t disagree. Palin was fine, not great, but ok. She did well for 5 weeks in, but she is not as seasoned as anyone would like. But for most of us, there is no other choice.

    Don’t leave.

  173. The economy-My son’s fiance is moving back in with me. She lost her job yesterday. But it’s cool, I get to spend more time with my grandson. He is 14 months old and the spitting image of my son.

  174. brad,
    if you said “im a film maker and interested in the opinions” here i totally missed that.
    it sounded to me like you were dissing palin.
    and i dont give a rats ass who you are, franklly.
    we could have had a civilized discussion but you chose to refer to my comment as containing
    “bullshit questions”
    so fuck you.

  175. jonas8: In this primary season we have learned the lesson that it is not to our advantage to trust anybody. These women pols have shown they are no different then their male counterparts when it comes to maintaining their own power. If that means they must line up to obliterate another female, they are more than willing to do so.

    It is what makes us hate politicians as much as used car salesman. Anything goes to close that deal.

  176. Brad,

    Don’t take it too personally. Some of the people here are fairly new or they just don’t know who you are. Believe me, The Confluence appreciates your work very much.

    People are also reacting to a really upsetting day yesterday for this blog.

  177. myiq2xu, on October 3rd, 2008 at 10:37 am Said:……..Any rooting I may do for McCain/Palin is because I want to see Obama defeated.


  178. Sarah Palin is a rising star in the GOP. We haven’t seen the last of her, no matter what happens next month.

    I think there is a pretty good chance that either Palin or Hillary will be the first demale POTUS, and it could easily end up being a contest between the two of them in 2012.

  179. NH, on October 3rd, 2008 at 10:33 am Said:

    Even Fox is running the Obama spin. That Biden won on substance and that Palin had no reat details. No comments or discussion of Bidens lies, exaggerations and half truths. Color me surprised – Not!

    To comment on Biden’s lies, exaggerations and half truths, Palin needed to know his 26 years and his votes and so on. To do all that with everything else in less than 5 weeks is impossible.

  180. jonas8: mean girl syndrome

    BTW: you have mentioned that you’re in Gillibrand’s district–me too. Where are you? I’m in Columbia County.

  181. I think it’s important to remember this blog and its posters was just accused yesterday of being rac**ist by a blogger many of us revere…we are on edge

  182. I agree, fif. She did much better than the MSM will ever give her credit for and I like her.

    Catarina: I think Brad is on our side. He is working with Murphy of PUMAPac to get the film made on Puma Movement and caucus fraud. RD used a clip of it in a recent post.

  183. bb: Sometimes we are beginning to become our own “trolls”.

  184. I am in moderation again and Andrew Sullivan is trying to become my new BFF!

  185. fif, i’m in saratoga county

    have you seen any polls on the gillibrand vs. treadwell race? they are going to have a debate soon

    what do you think about her?

  186. I am in moderation again and Andrew Sullivan is trying to become my new BFF!


  187. I live outside the SF Bay area and I grew up rooting fot the Oakland Raiders and hating the Niners, Niner fans usually hate the Raiders too.

    I have spent many Sundays rooting for the Raiders and whoever the Niners were playing.

    Occasionally the Niners would be playing one of the Raider’s division rivals like Denver and I watched the game wishing there was a way both teams could lose

  188. catarina,

    Lovely. But to be fair, I referred to only ONE question as being . . . well, you-know-what.

  189. kc,
    I regretfully agree. Most people I talk to these days feel that ANY Democratic candidate is better than a Republican because of the economy. How can McCain change that perception???

  190. sorry, Conflucians, if I’ve offended any of you for snapping at your friend. His “bullshit” remark really pissed me off.

    I’m tired of the media trashing of Palin and I refuse to play into it.
    I don’t care where it’s coming from-it’s pure crap.

    It’s not news to anyone here that Palin is not a genius.
    But give the woman some credit for christ’s sweet sake!

  191. Brad: How is the documentary coming along?

  192. That is true. Sarah is not HRC, nor do we want her to be. Each is her own person. I would like to see HRC in thw WH, and I truly don’t believe it can happen if Obama becomes POTUS.

    HRC has proven herself in the Senate; she keeps working hard to get legislation passed that makes sense, and works for the people. That day is coming in 2012.

  193. It should not matter who or how we vote. Or if we choose not to. Each one has a point of view and a reason for arriving at their decision.

  194. Kim
    too bad Brad doesn’t get that I’m on “his” side!

  195. LOL, I so love American discourse.

    Misrepresentations and lies are “substance.”

    BO supporters attack Palin for “style over substance.”

    One pill makes you larger and one pill makes you small…

  196. Right now, the econ. is killing McCain. Another gift from George Bush to McCain.

    And Obama will coast to victory on the backs of Dems who actually used their careers to improve the economy. Typical Obama methodology. Let others do the work then waltz in and reap the benefit.

  197. I am no longer a democrat. This election made me leave the DNC. They are not the party that I knew. Obama is no friend to women. He was no friend to Alice Palmer. He was no friend to Hillary Clinton. He is no friend to Sarah Palin.

    I am voting for MCCain. I don’t care what my friends from the party of ass have to say about.

  198. jonas: I really like Gillibrand. I know you were unhappy with her No vote on the bail out, but I went to her site and read her statement and she said, “I told people in my district that I would go to DC to be an independent voice.” She didn’t feel there was enough oversight in the plan, and a couple of other complaints.I called her campaign HQ, because of the constant Treadwell ads, and they said she is doing well because people have seen that she has been such an effective Rep.

    I met her in the spring when she was campaigning for Hillary. She is like a mini-Hillary–very smart, well-educated, attractive. Treadwell is trying to buy the race. Do you know when the debate will be shown?

  199. We are all on edge. The primary season is winding up and most of us are fearful to what we will wake up to come November 5th. For us, the least palpable news is an Obama win. We have invested so much of our time and emotions into this race that this would be the worst news of all so far.

    We have to move beyond Hillary. She will not be a factor in the next 4 years. The cards have been dealt and we have been robbed.

    I have no idea of the outcome. All I can attest to is that I will either be lingering in a state of depression or a coma. Neither scenario is appealing.

  200. on a different site, a post in french that was saying

    “sarah palin is learning very, very fast. she is exceptionally gifted and she deserves to be in the best schools. that school is the white house. she is a very charming lady”

  201. {{{catarina}}} We are all so emotional, after yesterday’s assault on us.

  202. Paperdoll:

    She didn’t quite call us the r-word, but it was close.

    She said we were::

    “grabbing everything the Republican ratfuckers are shoving their way to tar the people, policies and plans that the Clintons have promoted and defended against rightwing attacks in some misguided belief that this will hurt Obama”

    I don’t do that, and none of the posters or regular commenters are doing that either.

    But we have visitors who post drive-by comments like stray dogs leaving a steaming pile of meme on our lawn.

  203. catarina,

    I went back and realized that it was purplefinn, and not you, that asked the BS question.

    Sorry. I lost track.

  204. I have no idea of the outcome. All I can attest to is that I will either be lingering in a state of depression or a coma. Neither scenario is appealing.

    I just can’t imagine that after watching this man’s hypocritical, corrupt, arrogant, insensitive behavior for all these months (& the DNC/leaders) that he/they will be “rewarded” for it. I can’t even go there.

  205. apology accepted, brad. do you have aspirin?

  206. myiq: I get that, but what are our options? I work two jobs, have a dughter in law with no job and s on in Iraq. I am in a no win situation.

    I don’t want to vote for McCain, but I will NOT reward the DNC for taking the most qualified candidate, HRC, into some backroom and waterboarding her into submission.

  207. myiq: I think she took exception to any attacks directed at ACORN and labeled that criticism as ra*cist. Apparently in her world, this is a perceived attack on the Clinton administration and all things Clinton. Not so. It was leveled at those who have enriched themselves, namely Franklin Raines, who left with 90 million dollars of taxpayer monies. The fact that he is black has no bearing on the argument. But it would seem that this is what was taken as such.

  208. Sorry, myiq should read: I get that, but what are our options? I work two jobs, have a daughter-in-law with no job and a son in Iraq. I am in a no win situation.

  209. myiq2xu, on October 3rd, 2008 at 10:58 am

    That’s correct, the r-word wasn’t used .The word the ” dog whistle” was used instead….at least that’s how it felt .

  210. BO supporters attack Palin for “style over substance.”

    LOL! Oh, the irony!

  211. fif, i like gillibrand as well. i disagreeed with her vote no and this new bill with all the new sweetners is proving my pointt. how can she vote for this now? i mean she will probably vote yes now because they have their backs agaisnt the wall and they have to do something, but it makes no sense to vote no for the first and vote yes for the second bill, which is like an earmarkpallooza! oh well treadwell is no better and my vote is with her but i wish she had voted yes on monday, because i cant see how this new bill is better only more expensive.

  212. hey everyone – more debate thoughts above, plus, a song!

  213. Sarah spoke over the heads of the media right to the people. She is who she is, and whether I agree with her on all things or not, I believe that she knows what it is like to be an “average person”, and will work her tail off to do a good job for the people, and prevent us being screwed over. Are her policies or knowledge anywhere near my Hillary’s? HELL, NO! I think many of her approaches won’t work. But I also believe that she is sincere in wanting to help the little guy, and will make adjustments along the way where she can, and will fight to have my government all above-board and transparent. She’s a conservative, but I believe she will try to be fair in her application of her principles, and won’t hesitate to take on either side of the aisle if she thinks they are pulling a fast one.

    She’s REAL, and looks the public in the eye and says: “Here’s who I am, and here’s what I’ve done in Alaska. Take it or leave it, but I’m not gonna lie to you or claim to be something I’m not.” That is in itself a very refreshing thing to most Americans. So the elitists can poo-poo it all they want, pick on her lack of detail, pick on her folksy speech patterns (which are genuine, not manufactured), but she connects.

  214. and brad, cut Palin some slack-not that she needs much!
    the down homey folksy stuff was a bit overdone IMO but the sharks were circling for days and she stayed strong.

    I would have been shaking in my Loubotins.

    I respect tough. Reminds me of a hero of mine-and no, they are not the same. Not even close.
    But here we are, and this is what we’ve got.
    After I pull the lever for McCain I will probably need to be sick but Obama must be stopped and beating up on Palin just doesn’t help that cause.

  215. Just watched the vid from Sugan n Spice. That is scary. If I am correct, they were saying Alpha/ Omega while coming in—and, if so, is that not the beginning and the end-referrence to God? Tell me I am wrong, please.

  216. You have to credit the Axelrod tactics of freely labeling dissenters with the word “ra*cist. This action will go a long way in preventing scrutiny. To shield themselves from this charge, the MSM, already putty in their hands, will surely censor themselves in order to maintain access. Any and all criticism of The One will be handled quickly and dissent stamped out.

    Get ready for four years of more news blackouts. As if the last 8 were not enough. Transparency? You must be joking!

  217. All Afro American Gal, on October 3rd, 2008 at 10:55 am Said:….He was no friend to Alice Palmer. He was no friend to Hillary Clinton. He is no friend to Sarah Palin.

    It’s important to remember Alice Palmer and Obama’s start ….one could do a portrait of Barry just by reviewing the races with three women.

  218. The trouble, one of them, with these youth indoctrinations is that while not overtly encouraging them (that we see directly), neither does he discourage them—which means silence implies consent.

  219. anyone want to come upstairs?

    I’m feeling lonely!


  220. Obama himself may not overtly encourage these creepy youth indoctrinations, but the way his campaign has been marketed has caused these to spring up. I mean, were there ever any Bill Clinton youth or Al Gore youth or John Kerry youth or Hillary Clinton youth?
    It’s a phenomenon unique to Obama in this country.

  221. audacity,

    Thanks for the love, but you haven’t seen my film. Nor has anyone else.

  222. I think the votes, no and yea, have been manipulate from the start . It’s Kabuki. Nancy, for some reason orchestrated the voting down of the first bill….got me why .It seems she wanted the Senate’s approval first

  223. “Dog-whistle” has been perverted to mean “criticism of Obama”

  224. Myiq,

    I have no issue w/ Palin’s experience. She has more experience than Obama and has had to make tougher decisions than all of them put together. I’m commenting purely on the debate and her performance. I turned on the TV 20 minutes after it started and my first impression was that she looked tense and frozen, that comes with the territory I guess, but that’s what I saw. If we’re going to be honest, we must acknowledge that she’s got a “boat load” of experience but has a large learning curve to overcome. I think she can do it. I hope she can do it.

    Biden was a non issue, he didn’t hurt Obama. That’s all he was expected to do. He certainly can’t add to it.

    They need to let Palin be herself w/out the cutesy, kitschy mannerisms and catch phrases. I found it excessively grating when she quoted Ronald Reagan with “there ya’ go again Joe….” I puked in my mouth.

    I found Biden’s attempt at emotion fake and staged also. Since Hillary was beaten and humiliated I think I’ve become too cynical about this whole process.

    I was informed that they received either questions or areas of interest to prepare for in advance of the debate. Judging from their responses, there’s no way they didn’t know.

  225. Some one is paying for the Obama youth movement …if that’s not encouragement from his campaign, what is? After All he’s the guy who said ” we don’t need the people, we just need the checks” Moola is very, very important to Mr. O . If his campaign is parting with cash for the youth stuff, of course he’s encouraging it.

  226. WMCB, I find it completely hypocritical for Obama supporters to belittle Sarah Palin’s accent. At least it’s genuine and not that phony preacher schtick that Obama whips out for special occasions.

  227. I thought Gwen Ifill said at the beginning that no one had seen her questions.

  228. Audacity…Brad… what the hell is going on??!!!

  229. I’M WRONG. I’ll admit it (since I’m wrong most of the time anyway!). They did not get the debate questions in advance. I’m wondering if they had the topics. They seemed very well prepared.

  230. Gwen Ifill: “The specific subjects and questions were chosen by me and have not been shared or cleared with anyone on the campaigns or on the commission. ”

    From the debate transcripts, 4th paragraph.


  231. elixir noted They need to let Palin be herself w/out the cutesy, kitschy mannerisms and catch phrases. I found it excessively grating when she quoted Ronald Reagan with “there ya’ go again Joe….” I puked in my mouth.

    I think she is probably purposely using body language and speech mannerisms that allude/conjure/hearken to Reagan.

  232. audacity,

    My film is irrelevant because . . . ?

    The film is about the PUMA movement. Darragh Murphy is not dictating the content of the film.

    You know, it’s funny. About a month or so ago I found myself in an anti-PUMA site defending my film against a group of very hostile blog-readers. I was called a fraud and a villain, and the film was denounced for all manner of transgression. And after making a simple observation in here about Palin performance in last night’s debate, I’ve been met with pretty much the same response in here.

    So the supposed crazies in that other site are in alignment with the supposed sane people in here. And none of you have actually seen my film, or know much about it.


  233. Mr. Mays,

    “Now how does succeeding at generating roughly an hour or so’s worth of amusing television qualify Palin to be Vice President of the United States Of America?”

    Politics is to a large degree theater. A politician is communicating a message, a direction, to an audience. People watch manner, body language and attitude because there is real political information to be had there. It is always the liberal mistake to discount this aspect. We laugh and sneer at Reagan and Bush and they get elected anyway. We shit all over Bill Clinton, who had this quality in abundance, and wonder why we are out of power.

    Do not underestimate Sarah Palin. She has a tremendous political gift and needs to be countered by someone equally talented, but with better policy chops. Joe Biden is not that guy. Nor, for that matter is, Barack Obama, of whom your question may also be asked.

  234. ugsome,

    Politics may be theatre, but governing . . . not so much.

  235. WMCB, you should be in politics yourself 🙂 You said what I was thinking, but in a non-bloviating way. What you outlined is the “political information” I was alluding to above.

  236. Brad, agreed, but you can’t govern if you don’t get elected.

    Kindly abandon the condescending tone. We are not dumb.

  237. If the media can send thousands to scour Alaska to get the goods on Sarah, how about some investigation into who exhumed the sealed divorce papers of Obama’s Dem and Republican opponents for U.S. Senate?

    BTW, the tanning closet that Palin has means something entirely different when one lives near in the northern lattitudes. There’s a reason that Swedes have a problem with alcohol. Stockholm is a 24-hour nightclub in the winter. People need sunlight to be mentally healthy! Good of you Sarah for taking care of your mental state. You don’t seem to have daddy and mommy issues, either.

  238. Ugh. Time for lunch. See you around the corner.

  239. ugsome,

    I wasn’t being condescending.

  240. Sarah Palin Rules!

  241. I found it excessively grating when she quoted Ronald Reagan with “there ya’ go again Joe….” I puked in my mouth.

    Elixir: you miss the point. There are so many people out there who LOVE that. She was not talking to policy wonks, but to middle America. That’s why she looked right at the camera and by-passed the media. I agree with Gary’s assessment above.

    As for the arguing with Brad here today. C’mon people. Brad has been putting in time and effort to document the corrupt process this election cycle and is a Hillary supporter. We are on the same side. He’s entitled to his perception of the debate last night, even if some of us disagree. I think her ability to connect, like Reagan’s (who I couldn’t stand) is very powerful. As for experience, her folksy charm makes it look like she is a girl-next-door, but she has an 80% approval rating running a state with a $10 billion budget and 24,000 employees. She has negotiated energy contract with Russia, China and Canada, etc. VP’s have traditionally not been “ready to lead on Day One.” That’s what the top of the ticket is for. I am not saying she is presidential material like HRC–of course not. But she is not a dumb, inexperienced hick as they have painter her either.

    Also, what’s with the negativity toward Murphy? She’s been busting her butt for months to get the word out and organize a movement for HRC and against Obama.

  242. i think it’s some what relevant (if you’re discusing tickets) if you prefer your washington hacks on the top or the bottom of the ticket and you want your inexperienced fresh face at the top or the bottom of the ticket …

    this entire season has not necessarily been about substance, it’s been about candidateXDS vs thrill over fresh meat to put into the grinder

  243. Holy Mother of God, we are becoming our own tr*olls in here. Brad May is one of the good guys for God’s sake!!

  244. Mr. Mays, “Come on people!” sounds as if you think you have the right to upbraid us. I understand it’s hard to infer the right tone from a blog post, but condescension is what I read.

    I don’t think you have followed the consensus around here. Many Conflucians don’t agree with her policies–madamab, like many of us, despise Reagan Republicanism–and many will not vote for her, but we acknowledge her political gift. We are not uniformly equating that gift with preparedness for the Vice Presidency, but also don’t think she’s a bimbo. And painting our opposition as morons sinks us every damn time.

  245. Hello Pat, I’m glad Brad is one of the good guys, and I’m sorry if I jumped on him a bit quickly. I’ve heard my thoughts brushed off by men with an “Oh come on” for over 40 years, so my patience is somewhat exhausted there. Let me go take a Quaalude.

  246. Let’s get this right.

    Hillary Clinton = once in a lifetime leader
    Brad Mays = good guy
    Darragh Murphy = hero
    Riverdaughter = spiritual guru
    Conflucians = priceless

  247. rd-

    The only thing they haven’t demanded of her is that she do Obama’s debates for him.

    You said it sister.

  248. Nader’s running mate is Matt Gonzalez Matt Gonzalez is cool. He doesn’t have the experience of EITHER Biden or Palin. But he does have a very pragmatic attitude and the Nader platform is much closer to what I believe that the Republican platform. I will make my protest vote in a way that I can live with. And, when he agreed to be Nader’s running mate, he addressed the whole “spoiler” issue and said what we have all been saying: if the two parties want our votes, they must EARN them and stop blaming third parties for their own inadequacies. I also disagree completely with the “Nader is responsible for the last 8 years” meme. How about, Florida purged a ton of voters off its eligible voter rolls? How about Gore’s campaign sucked and he couldn’t even win his own state. I voted for Gore and not Nader b/c I was in the almighty PA. But I never hopped on the “blame Nader” bandwagon. Even the DNC said Ralph was not responsible. That’s the 2000 DNC, lest you think I care about what the 2008 DNC thinks. Gore made a lot of mistakes. Nader had the right to run. Nader is not responsible for the war in Iraq or the mortgage meltdown. He is responsible for 40 progressive non-profits.

  249. ugsome: Brad came in here with a fairly innocuous opinion based on his skills as a filmmaker. He viewed her performance through a different lens. However, from the moment he made his comments, he was assaulted for his point of view.

    Brad is one of the good guys. And some of those comments were far overreaching from those who disagreed. But his comment was not radical but professional. He took flak for his support of Nader. That is his business. None of us has the right to denigrate someone’s choice.

    We are clear that Obamabots are not welcome but how we vote going forward should not be a forum for bashing another serious point of view.

  250. Elixir: I am not sure if your comment was posted to be facetious or a putdown, but yes, something like that.

  251. ugsome,

    My post in here is a continuation of a discussion I was trying to have last night in the post-debate thread. I don’t come into these rooms very often, so I don’t really know the rules. I now know that you can’t pick up where you left off on yesterday’s thread.

    “Come on, people!” was directed at that previous thread.

  252. Hi Brad,

    Thing is, there aren’t really firm “rules,” and communicating online can be fiendishly difficult.

    Olive branch?



  253. PJ, Why would I post it as facetious? No artifice here. I know I have a high snark factor but that post was trying to reset the system and totally genuine. When I say priceless, I mean we have value above any tangible measure.

    And Hillary is a once in a lifetime leader. That’s how we all started, I won’t lose sight of that.

  254. Elixir: Having no lead in to that list I was unsure if you were serious or facetious. Thanks for clarifying.

  255. Perfect! RD! The whole problem with having to watch the Clintons right now for me has to do with, well all of it — but the finger will stand out forever in my mine. It’s basically ETCHED there.

    I’m very concerned as well, as a Calif. Dem about Pelosi and her role — especially in terms of the Soros connection and the big financial crisis.

    Palin was crispy and sharp. After what the media has already done to try and savage her I think they are going to be in for the biggest shocker of their lives at her popularity with “the mommy set” ——

    Funny how both Biden and she hole the same ideas about gay marriage — out here we don’t have issues with that. So, that was one of the huge hurdles no? They are equal on that one.

    So, the Roe is next item — I found an article on Cindy McC — an interview where she is NOT for changing it — even though she herself takes a pro-life position. As for McC he has been around long enough to know was and is. My sense is that they are holding off revealing more about that because of the Far Right Palin will attract

    She was STRONG. Biden bungled. I was scribbling so many notes and taking in the body language and all as you all do. STRENGTH is what came across — like Pioneers… and she also was very powerful — even in those fab shoes. She wasn’t what I thought she’d be. And, I was thinking about her gen vs Hillary — in that short span of 15 years or so — the difference in “feminist” styles.

    Right now, I’m for Palin and McC, then Hillary 2012 — after the big CLEAN UP BRIGADE REFORMS a few little things…

    She was fab.

    She was coherent.



  256. RealKim, don’t worry about McCain or Palin on Iraq. They want out. They very, very badly want out. Listen to everything they’ve said, starting at the convention: “Victory is in sight! We’re ALMOST DONE!”

    They want out — they just want to do it in a face-saving way. They will get elected, do some stuff, declare victory and have a ticker-tape parade, and then LEAVE. They want out of Iraq bad — the only thing they don’t want is to leave with an orgy of self-important chest beating about how we’re the Wurzt Countree EV4H, Forgive Us World. Personally, I don’t care. As long as they get the hell out.

    Obama will not leave. He will never leave Iraq. He will also never go to Dover and see the returning coffins any more than Bush did, only all those Bulghur-Soy-Casserole-Swirl-Bulb-Using idiots who voted for him will suddenly be filled with excuses for him that they never spun for W. Suddenly, you’ll see those upper-class ex-hippies breathing fire and brimstone and panting to go to war with whoever Obama points at, especially since their kids won’t be over there.

    Trust me — listen to the Repub rhetoric. They want out of Iraq BAD. Never forget that McCain does indeed know just how shitty war is, and Palin has a kid over there. I have no doubt whatsoever that they want that war over and done with much more than Obama does. They just want to leave with a parade and some flag-waving. I’m happy to let them have their parade and flag-waving.

  257. Pat Johnson, on October 3rd, 2008 at 11:54 am Said:
    Holy Mother of God, we are becoming our own tr*olls in here. Brad May is one of the good guys for God’s sake!!

    I agree 100%! I am not on the scale of political intelligence as “most” of you; but I come here to learn and receive guidance in a very unstable political environment that we have found ourselves in.

    For the past months, I have noticed that whenever some people say things that are not “in line” with others’ exact sentiments here (shall we say the regulars), they are immediately pounced upon and even threatened with banning from this site.

    I would think (and this is ONLY my opinion) that the various “opinions” should be welcomed. We want the PUMA movement to grow; we want to spread the message and reach the masses.

    Yes, some of you call this a “safe haven” – but as Sheri Tag would say – be kind to one another. You may have all come from DailyKOS or TalkLeft – but some of us are new to the blog scene; that doesn’t mean we aren’t interested in politics or what is happening to our country! I respect all of you here – you are brilliant people. I learn from this but I like hearing all sides to any given situation. People shouldn’t have to be “afraid” to post their thoughts here for fear of being ridiculed or banned.

    As my daughter would say “chill out” for God’s sake. (If I am being too unkind, well, I’m sorry – my 57 year old sister died of a heart attack 3 days ago – so, I come here to get my mind off things.)

  258. Interesting to read this morning of how Biden won on substance and Palin on style. Kind of strange we seem to get all upset when an athlete wins because of substrance abuse but are apparently not overly concerned when a politician wins by abusing substance!

    I am more of a reader than commenter and for the most part do not disagree with what many of you have to say.

    I started out on HuffPost supporting Hillary. Upon raising questions and expressing concerns about Obama’s associations with Wright and Rezko I was labeled a racist by some of Obama’s followers. Went to several other internet sites and this is one of two or three I follow now visit very regularly).

    The actions by the DNC on May 31, 2008 determined that I would probably never again consider myself a member of the democratic party.

    Now as a registered independent for the first time in my life (67 years old) I will be voting for a republican candidate for POTUS and have decided I will never again support a party.

    I will vote for Sen. McCain because:

    (1) I do not know enough about Sen. Obama and he obviously is not interested in providing factual information about who he is, who his associates have been, or what his core beliefs are;

    (2) I see a Obama victory as locking Sen. Clinton out of a possible 2012 run as I do not see the DNC as allowing anyone to oppose its Chosen One;

    (3) Even Sen. Biden in one response last night (think it was at the end) said something like after all these years he was not going to change (sort of odd for a running mate for Hope and Change isn’t it? But then when Sen. Obama really hasn’t been very specific about the changes he wants to bring about I guess maybe not.);

    (4) No matter who wins, there will be some change from what GW has been doing;

    (5) And probably most important, I do not see Sen. McCain (even though I disagree with him on many policy issues, I view as quite patriotic) as doing anything that would intentionally hurt our country. Since Sen. Obama is not very forthcoming on virtually anything, I am not so sure about him.

    To all here, keep up the good work. Enjoy your opinions (disagree with some but for the most part I am in agreement). As that registered democrat, I was not correct in my presidential selections very often and would like to start a new streak of winners as a registered independent (time permitting).

  259. Can you folks fill me in on McKinney going crazy? I live in a solid-blue state so it doesn’t really matter who I vote for. I’ve been committed to McKinney but at this point should I just go whole hog and vote McCain? Would that count as MORE of an anti-Obama vote? ‘Cuz I want to be as anti as humanly possible. 🙂

  260. Sheri, I’m so sorry to hear about the loss of your sister. My thoughts are with you.

    I agree with your post. We’ve had a long journey and many of us are tired and irritable. If we all agree on some basic tenets, we should be able to have a healthy, respectful discussion on many points.

  261. Great post RD. I agree. For those observing with open hearts and minds, I think Gov. Palin put to rest any qualms about her ability or readiness to lead. If a Washington D.C. outsider can clean the clock of a 30+-year career politician who used every lie and smarmy trick in his arsenal, she can certainly help clean up Capitol Hill and Wall St. I trust her. Can anyone say that about Biden, Obama or their corrupt Dem cronies who helped create the current financial crisis by refusing to rein in and clean up Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac? Gov. Palin is something Biden, Obama and the corrupt Dems can never be — genuine, honest and real. Biden, Obama, Pelosi, Reid, Frank, Schumer, Dodd, et al, having built their careers on lies, can’t even recall what’s true anymore. Gov. Palin simply is true — to herself, her family, the people she represents and the country she loves, from the top of her lovely head to the tip of those cool ruby-red heels!

  262. […] Friday: Cool Shoes! (by riverdaughter at The Confluence) No, she is no Hillary Clinton.  They really aren’t in the same league.  Hillary is ready to be president.  But in this vice presidential debate, she was more than able to stand up to Joe Biden.  It was a big mistake to underestimate her.  She may not have the foreign policy experience yet but it isn’t hard to see how she got to be governor of Alaska and have an 81% approval rating.  She comes across as smart, enthusuastic and tenacious. […]

  263. Pat J: “She is meat and potatos which most of us can identify with. This is what is killing those critics who judge quite nicely from their secure ivory towers. Sincerity is something they have not had to deal with before. It has shaken them to their socks”
    And that was exactly what many held against Bill Clinton – he was down to earth, came from lower/middle class, and understood the common man. Those in power seem to want to keep the power in their peers hands and the msm want someone to worship. Sarah is us – she represents middle America in ways that McCain, Biden and BO can’t.
    Oh, when oh, when are the Repubs going to flood the public with all the information about the DNC convention and other fraud that has gone on?

  264. […] Friday: Cool Shoes! Posted on October 3, 2008 by riverdaughter […]

  265. I like the shoes too. I think she did a great job. I really haven’t kept up with her. Frankly by this point after two years of politcal crap I am sick of it. With that being said, I did watch the Debate a little and I was really impressed with Palin. I truly like her. She is a go getter and to be able to handle a BS’er like Joe Biden. Please, he is so full of crap. I am sorry but I can not and will not vote for someone who will not even put his hand on his heart during the Star Bangled Banner. The most patriotic thing you can do to show respect for your country. He is not getting my vote. I truly think he is evil but the quiet kind. He is not for this country.
    Just my two cent. Oh, by the way, great post. I enjoyed reading it.

  266. I’m afraid of vaginas

  267. […] link tip (for women only) If you are totally in love with Sarah’s shoes, you will probably like Joyce’s relentless women’s convention, […]

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