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Tuesday: What’s the hurry?

The problem has been building for a long time.  Mortgage foreclosures have been on the rise for a couple of years now.  But precious little has been done about it except for the sanctimonious to shake their fingers at “those people” who got in over their heads.  Sure, there have been many people who built mansions they didn’t need and couldn’t afford or got in on flips that flopped.  But there were many other average Joe Bagodonuts for whom owning a home is a part of their lives they anticipate eagerly, like a sign of being an adult.  And there’s the mortgage interest deduction that you don’t get as a renter.  And home values only go up over time, right?

Well, sure they do.  That is, if wages also go up over time.  But what if they don’t?  Eventually, the supply exceeds the demands of people who just get priced out.  Then there are the risks of an overvalued house, a mortgage that balloons, an income that does not and suddenly, everything is at risk. One unexpected illness or layoff can land people in foreclosure.

But lawmakers didn’t worry overmuch about those “irresponsible” people who financed the American Dream with mortgages that were intended to turn a profit for someone else.  When the bank wants its money, average Joes have very few ways to plead for a little time or relief.  Bankruptcy is costly and punitive these days.  So when the foreclosure is iminent, many people leave everything behind and just walk away.  It’s just the way things were.  You win, you lose.  Those people were looooosers.  Too bad for them.  I got mine.

But now that the banks themselves have fallen on hard times, the milk of human kindness is oozing from the administration.  Not one second can be spared to relieve them of their bad decision making.  Their anxiety must be relieved, quickly.  “Hurry, HURRY!  Something dreadful may happen.  Like Weapons of Mass Depression.”

Hey, wait a minute.  If we’re headed for a Depression, then don’t we need to follow more tried and true formulas to get ourselves out?  Relief has to come from the bottom up, not just the top down.  Didn’t we debunk the “trickle down” theory during the Reagan/Bush era?  Voodoo economics, remember?

So, what’s really the hurry, guys?  With the election a little more than 40 days away, what are we really being set up with?  Anglachel has some theories and scenarios in Partisans and Pigs.  It sounds like a trap.  It’s a schadenfreudelicious trap in some respects, alarming in others.  I keep thinking it couldn’t happen to a nicer Product.  The NYTimes has an article on the Republicans cranking up their righteous indignation, right on schedule.

Meanwhile, Madame President of our Hearts, girds her loins and takes her case to the American people for a comprehensive, multi-faceted solution full of wonky goodness. With leadership and compassion, she’s remembering who really needs to be spared a dime. Besides, if you don’t have the time to do it right, when will you have time to do it over?

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191 Responses

  1. This is the same thing that has happened again and again. Everyone paying attention has known for years this crisis was coming. Allyou had to do was read Krugman every once in a while. It has not been a big secret that banks were going to fail.

    Yet tCongress waits until the plane is going down on fire, then they jump out with a sewing machine and parachute making instructions.

  2. What’s the hurry? Gotta look good for the election….meanwhile, there won’t be a vote on getting Karl Rove on the contempt citation issued by the Judiciary Committee in the House…and Rove goes free re: the attorney firing scandal and Don Siegelman remains at risk of a long time in prison over a political hit job…..

    My mother lived through the Depression and is scared stiff and even she doesn’t what this crap railroaded through Congress….

    To change the topic…

    The Sisterhood of Shared Indignities (A Double Post by kenosha Marge and InsightAnalytical-GRL)

    http://insightanalytical.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/the-sisterhood-of-shared-indignities-a-double-post-by-kenosha-marge-and-insightanalytical-grl/

    “We’ve teamed up to reflect on our early experiences with–and without–baseball gloves and how our sensibilites about being a woman have developed from there…and where we are now during this political season.

    kenosha Marge and InsightAnalytical-GRL”
    “SIsters” and “Indignities”

  3. AP/Yahoo poll: PUMAs still not impressed with Obama. And, surprise: it’s seems we are 42% of Hillary supporters – same as we were in June!
    http://edgeoforever.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/pumas-still-not-impressed/

  4. I love the end of Joe Scarborough’s Hillary segment — after someone asked her about getting her supporters onboard the Obama bus and Hillary says the usual thing, Joe S says:

    “It’s like going to the store to buy an Aretha Franklin album and the store tries to push Miley Cyrus on me. I. Want. Aretha.”

    He’s such a Hillary fan boy. 🙂

  5. Joe’s right. Mika can be do her cynical bs 24/7 about McCain, and it just makes you more resolute – if that is even possible. Hillary will work well with McCain and Palin.

    McCain/Palin 2009

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  6. Those of us who are closer to retirement than others may be probably see more need for haste.

  7. Sorry — “may probably see”.

    Need coffee.

  8. Hillary is acting perfectly. She isn’t showing the slightest sign of “disloyalty” but she still manages to make Obama look bad by demonstrating leadership.

    Leadership is not being in charge and getting to make all the decisions.

    Obama has never led anything in his whole life.

  9. Remember in “It’s a Wonderful Life” when George has to cancel his honeymoon because there was a run on the bank and he had to keep the S&L from going under?

    Mr. Potter was using the crisis to take advantage, and George stopped him.

    Right now there are people who are “well-capitalized” that are buying real estate at bargain prices.

  10. Don’t get me wrong, every day’s events makes me ache for Hillary as President, but she is just hitting her stride. She is going to be an incredible force over the next four years. Then she gets to be President and everyone will appreciate her as much as we do now.

  11. I agree about Senator Clinton acting perfectly. But the problem for Obama is that it isn’t an act. It’s who and what she is. She leads. She can’t help it.

    And Obiwannabe? Hiding someplace studying up for the debate. The left had the screaming collywobbles about Governor Palin studying up and she’s the Republican choice for VP.

    But the Obamacrat’s choice has been running for PRESIDENT of the frakking United States for 18 months and he needs to study up? You’d think he might have learned something by now.:mad:

    NØbama NØway

  12. As Hillary says, she is a Senator from New York and so has special responsibilities. She has to serve her constituents, and lucky for us, that benefits all of us too.

  13. Every time Hillary speaks on the issues…she makes everyone else look incompetent . It is just the way it is. Hillary Clinton is not going to be “less” so Obama can be perceived as “more”.

    Bush has taken credit for the “economic expansion” that is only based on consumption and debt. It was only a matter of time before we would eat our own.

    If we end up only throwing good money after bad..the crisis will deepen.

  14. Hillary was beautiful this morning — how come she can wear so many colors so well? But mainly it’s the force of her knowledge and wisdom that glows.

  15. I’m not really angry with the Republicans. Disgusted by them, yes. But who didn’t expect Bush and his crew to make a last grab to loot the Treasury and cause chaos before like cockroaches they scurry back into the woodwork?

    My fury is reserved the collaborationist Dems who, whether thru spinelessness or secret agreement, make a few concerned noises for the cameras and then cave Every-Effin-Time.

    We don’t need elections, we need a nationwide tar and feather party.

    And with that mini-rant, I’m off to work for my daily peanuts. Good day to all!

  16. Saw this earlier today:

    In 2007, Wall Street’s five biggest firms– Bear Stearns, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, Merrill Lynch, and Morgan Stanley – paid a record $39 billion in bonuses to themselves. That’s $10 billion more than the $29 billion loan taxpayers are making to J.P. Morgan to save Bear Stearns. Those 2007 bonuses were paid even though the shareholders in those firms last year collectively lost about $74 billion in stock declines –their worst year since 2002.

  17. Myiq: Those well-capitalized are the same who put us into this damn mess.

  18. What Charles said. People probably don’t remember 1998 because the crisis was handled so quickly and so well.

  19. My first comment here at the Confluence.

    The more I read about this bailout, the more I dislike it – no matter what version they are considering passing.

    Detailed objections in my diary yesterday.

    If only it were Hillary, speaking as pres candidate for the real Democrats left…

  20. Anglachel’s post misses the point almost entirely. She assumes the Democrats want to do the right thing, and ignores that the Dems are at the center of this economic meltdown with their corruption at Fannie Mae. I have seen numerous Democrats talk about how wonderful Paulson is. Gary and I have been remarking how weird that is. Looks like both sides are getting what they want out of this deal.
    Also, Angl misses the fact that Dodd being the banking chairman has at best been completely incompetent and worse totally corrupt. Remember when it was discoveed that he got a sweet-heart mortgage from countrywide? Getting favors and campaign cash(biggest taker of money from Fannie Mae) from the very people you are supposed to regulate is what we can expect from these Dems. My take on the window dressing Dodd calls the consessions he is asking for is that the Dems are being played as much as they are trying to play us.

  21. Dems are NOT being played as much as they are playing us.

  22. I like when Mika tried to get Hillary to take a “swipe” @ Sarah(I mean Gov. Plain), and she wouldn’t take the bait.
    Instead Hillary (I mean Senator Clinton/I must stop this 1st name thing), brought up how people vote for “the -top-of-the-ticket”.

  23. Oops, I just posted this on an earlier thread accidentally, but here is something some of you may enjoy reading, just for laughs.

    The Washington Times, while not calling the PUMAs out by name, has printed an article today outlining the problem Obama is having pulling Hillary voters into his camp:

    The problem that supporters of Clinton, the New York senator, have with Obama seems to flow from their measure of him as a candidate, not from issues. From establishing a timeline for a U.S. withdrawal from Iraq to abortion to canceling tax cuts on the rich, their views of the importance of issues are virtually identical to Democrats in general.

    Yet they find Obama less likable, honest, experienced and inspiring than Democrats overall do, and have a better view of McCain. And while majorities of Clinton supporters say Obama shares their values and understands ordinary Americans, they’re less likely to say so than Democrats overall.

    “It’s just a gut feeling, my gut tells me he’s not it,” Leslye Burgess, 53, a federal Treasury Department manager and Democrat from Fairfax, Va., said of Obama. The Clinton supporter added, “I’ll have to fight with myself between now and November” about how she’ll vote.

    Read it all.

    And let me just add how thrilled I am that Hillary is on the job in the clutch, cleaning clocks, while a vacuous Barry Obama takes a day or two more to cram for his glass house close-up on Friday.

  24. The part about the bail-out that pisses me off is they are going to let the people that caused the problem get off scot-free, and they’ll get to keep the loot too.

    I don’t need to read the fine print to know that is what will happen.

    I’ve heard it referred to as “socialized risk”

    Profits are holy and untouchable, but if you lose your ass Uncle Sugar has you covered.

    That is, of course, if you are filthy rich. Joe Bagodonuts gets it up the poop chute.

  25. Oh man…we so missed out on the chance of having a great leader in office to clean up this mess (Hillary) because of the Democratic leadership and the MSM.

    McCain and Hillary seem more alike all the time. I think the common denominator is leadership albeit with differences in idealogy. Compared with the flacid demeanor of Obama, there really is no comparisson…

    On another note, it looks like Tina Fey is officially on the Obama band-wagon, even if it seems reluctantly so…

    She said she really does not want to play Sarah Palin after Nov 5th…

  26. I hope he gets his clock cleaned on Friday, arrogant pissant.

  27. He probably thinks that shouting “change, change” will do it for the debate.

    And who knows? Jim Lehrer will no doubt throw him the softest of softballs.

  28. Why is Barney Frank negotiating this, isnt he responsible for some of these problems?? Why isnt Obama involved in the negotiations? isnt he the leader of the democratic party?

  29. GMA is outlining all of the symptoms for what is going to kill all of the Hillary supporters.

    DVT – from sitting all day and night watching cable and commenting.

    Problem is, they didn’t find our bodies for weeks after because they couldn’t clear the debris from the front door of their house to the computer fast enough.

    Oh, well I wanted to leave a legacy behind for my child. I thought it might be money and other assets, but Congress cleared that up. Maybe he can get money from recycling the cans and plastic.

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  30. I have been reading that there is plenty of money to buy but that the institutions won’t sell below-market so what Paulson is going to do with our money is buy above-market. So they are being bailed-out but with a bonus. It’s also criminal that everyone in government that’s supposed to be monitoring this stuff has let it get to this point. Everyone on the relevant committees and in government oversight positions should be fired/voted out!

  31. You know Hillar’s riff about voting for the top of the ticket, not the bottom, ruins it for Obama. He’s not top ticket material. McCain is. Sarah Palin is icing. Joe Biden is mold.

    That’s not even a subliminal signal. That’s jut the truth.

  32. Charles, I have a question. Does the investment house have to own the mortgage before it can sell a derivative of it?

  33. Carol, sorry, but Gary and I saw on the TV last night that they are prosecuting people who are collecting recyclables and selling them back, and are not approved to do it. This is a very big issue in SF if I am supposed to believe Gavin Newsome.

  34. This insistence for haste reminds me of the rush to ram though the patriot act . The hurry is part of the scam . And what snake oil salesmen doesn’t tell you to hurry? They want over reaction done beyond anyone can think. As RD says, everyone knew this was coming. We should look things over before handing money over to those who say they didn’t see it , but are the supposed pros.

    Knowing the fed will step in, should be enough to stop the immediate melt down . It’s vital this is done right or they will vacuum the treasury out and the bankers will be in the life boats while the average person will be in the drink…..Which is actually what they want of course.

  35. jonas8-That’s what I want to know. Mac, O and even Hillary aren’t in DC. There are hearings today so I hope somebody shows up. Do they do everything via iPhone?

  36. Mawm – I saw that also. But, in SF they have people going through other’s trash outside of the property in recycleable bins. My recycleables are within the confines of my home not in trash bins open to the public. Remember, ya declared me “Grey’s ………….

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  37. I thought Hillary was there.

  38. Banking comm. hearings starting on c-span now.

  39. Mawm: We are representing someone for selling recycled metal.

  40. Whenever someone tells me I have to hurry hurry hurry, I ask myself how I am being conned. They want us to hand over $750,000,000,000 of our money to save us from a depression, but at the same time they say we don’t have enough time to put anything in the agreement for the average tax payer, not to mention they want to keep all their golden parachutes. No, I’m sorry. This deal stinks. We need a freeze on foreclosures and help for people with ARMs to refinance to a fixed rate. Why is that such a hard thing to do? GIve me a break. We are essentially nationalizing the financial industry at this point, but unlike other socialist countries, the people are not going to get any benifit from it.

  41. I saw Hillary on CNBC in NY yesterday.

  42. Dodd is sitting there. He should be cuffed and dragged out feet first.

  43. Stanley Kurtz is still investigating the Annenburg Challenge/Ayers relationship. Just some guy in the neighborhood my a*s. Can you imagine ANY other candidate in any other year getting away with these bald-faced lies and associations?

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122212856075765367.html

  44. Hillary is probably having to bi-locate in DC and NY these days.

  45. Kim, I saw a piece on that last night, and I thought that was the most bogus BS. So what if people dumpster dive? Our government is trying to give the corps so much power over us. Now we don’t even control our own garbage anymore.

  46. Mawm, on September 23rd, 2008 at 8:56 am Said:
    ,,,,,,. I have seen numerous Democrats talk about how wonderful Paulson is,,,,

    anyone who praises that money tsar wanna be is a Wall St rat fucker….whatever the letter after their name!

  47. Senate banking committee on cspan 3 now.

  48. Well where is my golden fucking parachute in all of this? If we bail them out and they make it through the crisis, I want a damn break on something for the increase in taxes I will be asked to pay.

  49. Hillary and McCain have both said this will be studied, transparent, and reviewed. I don’t think they will let this slip through.

  50. So guys, what’s your take? Friday’s debate is possibly the first time a lot of americans are going to start paying attention to the presidential race. If the debate leaves Obama looking ineffective and anemic and Hillary continues on her multi media financial road show – who do you think the american people are going to want in the WH? Will the Dem party wake up and make a sudden change? Are the Clintons regaining the Dem party as I suspected? **Is the Dem party allowing this to happen in order to position Hillary for a dramatic shift????

  51. Once it goes into the bin, it belongs to the city. They use that as part of the economy. I lived in SF in 2006, and you don’t mess with their trash. Remember, they banned plastic bags there recently.

  52. Everywhere I go on the DC social circuit of late, I continue to be stunned by ultra-liberal neo-Marxist gray-haired women tossing out anti-Palin remarks, anecdotes, and out right lies. Just this past weekend, I was regaled by a tale that Big Oil money has rushed in and shut down the investigation of Governor Palin’s actions Troopergate. “Just goes to show you what big money can do.” this woman sighed. WTF? That story has been aired. Nothing there, folks. And yet, here this woman, active in leftist Code Pinker politics here in DC, was spouting this sad tale. I just looked at her and said nothing. Lost cause.

    Another charming lady at an arts gathering was giggling that a friend of hers had initiated the idea to get all her friends to send $10 donations to Planned Parenthood in Sarah Palin’s name. She laughed and laughed at her own supposed sense of humor.

    Both my wife and I remained speechless, not quite sure of the joke we had missed. Our unspoken thoughts were, “Why, I think Governor Palin would very much appreciate the thoughtfulness of the gesture, and would approve, despite her own personal choice of parenthood in her own life.”

    But we were definitely in “enemy” territory at a private home, and so grinned silently to ourselves after it finally dawned on us that this woman really thought she had made a hilarious slam on the Governor. To us, it was neither particularly funny, or meaningful, but merely indicative of the anti-Palin crowd grasping at anything to enhance their own political aura.

    I wish I had said something now, but does anyone really believe these folks would change their position at this point? These people were strangers to us, not friends or family. Best to just let them have their laugh or their sigh, methinks.

  53. Carol-The thieves come when people put their bins at the curb for pick-up. I don’t think the bins are left out all the time.

  54. Mawm, this guy has been charged with a felony and all he did was sell some garbage. A guy with no former record and a family to feed. It is just so freaking ridiculous.

    BTW, one of my dearest friends in the Raleigh area just lost her job. She is a fabulous attorney, but she is an Obamabot. Does Gary know anybody who needs an associate?

  55. Or that’s how it looked in the story I saw, anyway.

  56. If anyone gets videos of Hillary on various shows this a.m., please post links. I missed her…

  57. Carol, I just don’t buy that business model. If someone throws something out ,seems to me that it is up for grabs. If the people are so concerned that only the approved corporations collect their trash, why don’t they drive it over to their facilites themselves. This to me is a manufactured controversy created by this garbage businesses and perpetuated by city officials who get campaign contributions from them.

  58. Friday’s debate:

    Neither Obama nor McCain is particularly good at debating. Obama talks in rambling sentences that are hard to follow, McCain follows the KISS rule.

    But McCain is in the same situation Reagan was in 1980. All he has to do is convince voters he is not senile or a dangerous extremist.

    Folksy, warm and funny he is good at.

  59. From the supposed wackadoodle who’s been right about the market for a long time, Larouche. I don’t go into his royal family conspiracies, but where else will you get this info? Not the MSM.

    http://www.larouchepac.com/news/2008/09/22/stop-paulsons-bankers-dictatorship.html

    September 22, 2008 (LPAC)–Under the appropriately named Section 8 of his unprecedented bailout swindle, Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson included a clause which decrees that none of his actions can be overturned or modified by any court or administrative agency. That would eliminate any legal challenges or appeals, and effectively place Paulson and his bailout operation above the law, creating a virtual bankers’ dictatorship.

    The relevant section of his legislative proposal reads: “Sec. 8. Review. Decisions by the Secretary pursuant to the authority of this Act are non-reviewable and committed to agency discretion, and may not be reviewed by any court of law or any administrative agency.”

  60. So does that mean that when college students who are outfitting their first apartment, grab that old papasan chair by the curb, they should be charged with larceny?

  61. Pale Lion: it becomes exhausting trying to to talk to people who are irrational and unreceptive. The hysteria and smears is impenetrable. They don’t want facts. In the face of that kind of dogmatism, there are moments to blast them with information, and moments when silence is the only recourse. I have been increasingly astounded by the levels of ignorance and bigotry I am witnessing. All these people who fancy themselves so enlightened and superior are regressing to ugly tribal warfare. They just repeat the rumors and think they are so bright. Look at the celebrity parade. They don’t even realize they are embarrassing themselves.

  62. myiq: what is the KISS rule?

  63. So we give him the final say, all of this taxpayer money and if he fucks it up, there is nothing we can do about it?

  64. Elixir: are you suggesting they would change the nominee? Never ever going to happen. That’s over.

  65. Keep It Simple, Stupid

  66. Mccain doesn’t have to be good at debating to win. He just has to say pithy stuff with conviction….which he does so many worlds better than Barry that it’s not even a contest! Debates at this level are about emotional bondingwith the voter. Voters want conviction. However what McCain must watch is the press trying to bate him to anger….that’s the trap they will set

  67. Hillary 22 september

    Senator Clinton Meets with NY Fed President to Discuss Response to Market Crisis

    Clinton Calls for Bold Action to Offer Relief to Homeowners, Stabilize the Markets and Provide Broader Economic Reform

    NEW YORK, NY – Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton today met with New York Federal Reserve Bank President Tim Geithner to discuss needed steps to address both the market crisis and its impact on New York. Senator Clinton outlined principles for action that would offer relief to homeowners, stabilize the markets, and provide broader economic reform. Senator Clinton today also welcomed news that the Treasury Department has acknowledged the need to provide mortgage relief to some homeowners and is considering providing equity in bailed out companies to taxpayers, but underscored the necessity of bold and comprehensive action to rescue both Wall Street and Main Street.

    “I am encouraged by reports that the Treasury Department is beginning to recognize the imperative of providing immediate relief to homeowners facing foreclosure and is considering some share of equity for the American people so that they have an interest in the companies rescued under the Treasury’s proposal. I will continue to brief the Treasury Department and my colleagues on my proposals which can serve as a basis for these initiatives. As currently written, the administration’s proposal does not go far enough in providing the real reform we need to rescue both Wall Street and Main Street. I have outlined the principles I think must guide our efforts to restore confidence in our markets and provide broader economic reform. In discussions with Congressional leaders, administration officials, and financial leaders in the days ahead, I will continue to champion these principles as well as the needs of New Yorkers impacted by this crisis,” Senator Clinton said.

    Following her meeting with President Geithner, Senator Clinton made a brief statement. A transcript of the Senator’s comments follows.

    http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=303378&&

  68. Can someone more knowledgeable in finance please tell me what the effect of doing nothing in this case would be?

    I can’t shake the feeling that this mess was created, if not deliberately then at least with full knowledge of the potential effects. In essence, they gambled and lost. But they really don’t lose, because Bush has no compunctions about raping our economy further to pay off their losses.

    I don’t know about you, but my gambling losses have never been covered by the federal government. I do not understand why these institutions cannot be allowed to fail.

  69. We have reached the point where garbage is valuable enough to be bring the law in ….I told my clutter bug neighbor in time, she’ and others like her, will become the new dept stores

  70. Hillary 22 september

    Senator Clinton Joins Congressman Hall and Veterans Advocates to Call for Support of Legislation to Streamline Veterans Benefits System

    Clinton Bill Would Help Cut Through Massive Backlog of Claims, Reduce Time Veterans Must Wait for Benefits They Have Earned Through Their Service

    Cortland Manor, NY – Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton joined CongressmanJohn Hall, Paul Rieckhoff, Executive Director of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA), local elected officials, and veteran leaders and advocates, today to call for support of critical veterans’ legislation to end the growing disability claims backlog at the VA. The Veterans Disability Benefits Claims Modernization Act of 2008, which Senator Clinton introduced in August, would enact reforms to improve the delivery of compensation to veterans, their families and their survivors. Senator Clinton’s bill is the companion to legislation Congressman John Hall introduced in the House of Representatives where it has passed unanimously.

    Overhauling the VA benefit system is a task that is long overdue, and the changes proposed in the Clinton-Hall disability claims measure is critical to ensuring that our veterans are not forced to wait for essential benefits like healthcare, pensions, and vocational rehabilitation. With more veterans returning from Iraq and Afghanistan, Senator Clinton is urging her colleagues to pass this critical piece of legislation to ensure that an already overwhelmed VA system will be able to deliver the benefits our veterans have earned in a swift and efficient manner.


    “In a time when we are asking so much of our men and women in uniform, it is unacceptable they are often burdened by excessive delays, bureaucratic obstacles and the outdated rules of the VA claims process when they return home. We owe our veterans a debt of gratitude, and we can start by taking steps to streamline the VA system so that we are delivering benefits quickly and fairly to our heroes and their families,” said Senator Clinton

    “The House of Representatives has spoken with one voice on…

    http://clinton.senate.gov/news/statements/details.cfm?id=303351&&

  71. I think that stuff about McCain’s temper is overblown.

    Some people vent louder than others. That doesn’t make them dangerous.

    When I know that someone is trying to provoke me I get much more calm and controlled.

  72. Where would we be without Hillary? I shudder to think.

  73. I think whenever the Bush crowd acts like they they know what they are doing , it’s because they set it up the scam before us . If meltdown was any minute, Bush would have high tailed it to Cheyenne Mountain

  74. Mawm @ 8:56 – Well said

    The scales have fallen from my eyes. I no longer believe the crap Dems are the good guys. They’ve shown themselves to be worse than Republicans. When I see Hillary I see true leadership; how she was abused (DNC/Media), discarded and now expected to haul everyone’s ass over the finish line outrages me all over again. The level of corruption and spinelessness of the Democratic Party in everything is overwhelming- impeachment off the table, mortgage mess, voter disenfranchisement, refusal for a legal roll call, THIS:
    The Final Tally On The Popular Vote:
    Hillary Clinton 17,857,446 — 48.04%
    Barack Obama 17,584,649 — 47.31%
    The Final Pledged Delegate Count
    Hillary Clinton 1,730.5 — 39.17%
    Barack Obama 1,747.5 — 39.55%

    Only a 17 pledged delegate lead ! If our current Democrats merited any of our votes the 17pledged lead count should give pause to voting for any Dem that allowed Obama to be selected.

  75. In discussions with Congressional leaders, administration officials, and financial leaders in the days ahead, I will continue to champion these principles as well as the needs of New Yorkers impacted by this crisis,” Senator Clinton said.

    Just listen to her go! And WHERE is Obama on this? No comment? I do not understand why his numbers would go up when he is so obviously MIA on this. Voters are so simplistic: “I’ll take the other guy.” But what is the other guy offering?

  76. Until FDR, the government did nothing to regulate the economy.

    For genrations we had cycles of “boom” and “bust”

  77. creeper, on September 23rd, 2008 at 9:55 am

    If only it was just to cover their losses ! No, they want even more $$$$ than their losses !!….and we don’t even know if their stated losses are correct . However we are supposed to HURRY HURRY !!!!

  78. Elixir, on September 23rd, 2008 at 9:39 am

    The Democratic ship is going down with Obama. There is no turning back. I can’t wait for Obama to say, I agree with Senator McCain.

  79. Cortland Manor, NY – Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton joined CongressmanJohn Hall, Paul Rieckhoff, Executive Director of Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA), local elected officials, and veteran leaders and advocates, today to call for support of critical veterans’ legislation to end the growing disability claims backlog at the VA.

    Does this woman ever sleep and eat? Clearly, she is leading on many fronts right now. It’s actually heartening to see that all her efforts (and ours) during the primary have given her much greater power and stature to get things done. Go Hillary!

  80. Chuck Schumer, who actually can explain things and is constructive.

  81. Anglachel’s latest mentions that Obama doesn’t identify himself as a Democrat in his campaign brochures.

    That’s weird. The only time I have seen that before was in 2006 when the Republican candidates were keeping their party affiliation on the down-low.

  82. Denise W, on September 23rd, 2008 at 10:02 am

    Here, here. With ALL the vast cheating , he “won” by 17 delagates…no wonder he stole the MIich. 4

  83. I had two people tell me that Lambert says he will unban me if I ask.

    Why should I have to ask?

  84. why would you want to?

  85. myiq, Teddy Roosevelt did a lot to reform wall street and break up monopolies.

  86. Where in the world is Barack Obama?

    My guess is that the debate is more important, and he needs to study.

  87. myiq, if this were not online, you would be required to prostrate yourself.

  88. Today Show: Florida has tightened up considerably. McCain had been up 5-8 points. Now:

    Mason-Dixon: 47% BO 45% McCain

    He has 50 field offices and 350 paid staffers in FL. He is running ads continuously. McCain is only leading older votes by 4 points.

    Charlie Christ: This is going to come down to experience and judgment.

    Democrats have registered approx. 130,000 new voters.

  89. Are those new registered Democrats alive or dead?

  90. Thanks fif for your counsel. Two more quick anecotes. My wife is the head accountant at a small non-partisan lobbying firm, hired guns, aka the money talks crowd. Some afternoon about three weeks ago, one of her colleages, one of her closest friends there, came into her office and casually asked who she was supporting in the election. Wife said McCain/Palin. Her friend went ballistic, belittling the wife with ridicule, and demands of why. Wife was stunned. Especially since this woman is known as one of the most vapid lobbyists in that office. Seems the lobbying industry is indeed afraid of McCain-Palin closing down their business.

    Two weeks ago, at the firm’s annual picnic, I overheard a staunch Republican in friendly chat say he was voting for neither of these two scoundrels, although he also admitted that “his business” is usually more lucrative during a Democratic regime. This man is a former congressman from an important southern state.

    Key point: they are ALL afraid of McCain-Palin.

    My wife has worked at this firm for 22 years. Never has a presidential election stirred up so much interest in the outcome. I repeat, these folks are are ideological lobbyists. They are money dogs.

  91. Updated post from downstairs with link to interview on YouTube:

    Joe Biden Rewrites History (again)

    MAJOR GAFFE ALERT

    I am LMAO at the ignorance of the following comment by Joe Biden to Katie Couric and for Couric nodding in agreement with it. This is shocking!

    http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/09/22/eveningnews/main4470063.shtml

    Behind The Scenes With Joe Biden
    CBS News Anchor Katie Couric Spends The Day With The Democratic VP Nominee

    Sept. 22, 2008

    CBS News was with him last Thursday during one of the rockiest weeks in history for the U.S. economy, something that wasn’t lost on the six-term senator.

    “Part of what being a leader does is to instill confidence is to demonstrate what he or she knows what they are talking about and to communicating to people … this is how we can fix this,” Biden said. “When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn’t just talk about the princes of greed. He said, ‘look, here’s what happened.'”

    Here is the YouTube video clip of Biden with Katie Couric. You can see the comment at the 1:59 mark regarding Roosevelt going on TV after the stock market crashed.

    Hmm, so, according to Joe Biden, when the stock market crashed in 1929, FDR appeared on TV and talked candidly with the American people.

    Gee, that sounds so nice, doesn’t it? And Katie Couric just nodded along in agreement with Joe Biden.

    But wait! There’s a little problem with what Joe Biden said: Historical Facts

    The great Stock Market crash was in October of 1929.

    Herbert Hoover was the President then.

    FDR was not elected President until November 1932, the first of four terms.

    AND furthermore…

    I’m pretty sure FDR wasn’t popping up on TV to reassure the American people of anything in 1929, given the fact that it was not until TEN years later, in

    (wait for it)

    1939 !!!

    when FDR became the first President of the United States to

    (wait for it)

    APPEAR ON TELEVISION !!

    FDR was at the 1939 Word’s Fair in New York in 1939 and his appearance was broadcast to a handful of TV sets in the New York area by RCA. That was the first time a US President appeared on TV.

    Question:

    How can Joe Biden get a pass on uttering such ignorance? Did Katie Couric not know what a whopper Joe Biden was telling? Golly! Is Joe Biden senile? Seriously, WTF?

  92. FOX news just reported that lobbyists are trying to expand the bailout bill to include car loans, credit card loans, and basically any and all bad debt.

    They want the whole fucking industry to basically declare bankruptcy and have a clean slate on OUR dime. They want the American taxpayer to buy up every shred of bad debt they have accumulated, and walk away scot free.

    Oh, HELL no!

    I have no problem with the government stepping in and coughing up just enough to prevent a total crash – I hate it, but it’s likely necessary. But these assholes are using the opportunity and the fear to pile on trillions in cushion for themselves.

  93. Correction (should read): I repeat, these folks are NOT ideological lobbyists. They are money dogs.

  94. When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn’t just talk about the princes of greed. He said, ‘look, here’s what happened.’”

    OMG and they talk about Palin being a heart beat away!! HELP

  95. Pale Lion, on September 23rd, 2008 at 10:31 am Said:
    Key point: they are ALL afraid of McCain-Palin

    You can see it in the press love for Barry. MaCain may or may not be Bush 3….but Barry is Bush 5 and the upper crust want him bad

  96. All I know is if anyone is willing to come to my house and haul off the garbage, I would certainly appreciate it.

    No, Hillary does not sleep.

    McCain will win.

    I hope they make BO stick to the time limits instead of letting him ramble on and on.

    The analogies these Congressional morons are giving regarding the crisis are just plain juvenile. I still support strong term limits. So many days and they are out of there. One thing I saw Sarah do was decrease the amount of time they were in house in the state legislature. Instead of everyone milling around doing nothing day after day, they actually have to be present, have an agenda, and are to get it done.

    Trust me, we need Sarah and McCain.

  97. Everyone, have a look upthread at paperDoll’s comment:

    paper doll, on September 23rd, 2008 at 9:49 am

    Thanks for posting this PaperDoll.

    I have to ask the question, WTF are they doing in Washington?!!

    There must be accountability and oversight on this bailout bill. It is turning into a Christmas tree bill with no accountability and no oversight. That kind of bill MUST be rejected and defeated! We must demand and have accountabilty and oversight in this bill!!

    Hillary and McCain want accountability and oversight on this bill. Obama iitially punted the whole issue to Paulson and had NOTHING to say about the whole mess.

    Get accountability and oversight on that bill BEFORE it passes Congress and is signed into law! This is VERY important!

  98. Kim – that you expect all of the Obama supporters to be living vs. living impaired is just really out of line.

    Look (my favorite BO phrase), get on board, the trainwreck is leaving the station!

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  99. I am getting depressed. I had strong hopes that this nightmare was evaporating and the tally was swinging away from The Chosen One, but these polls continue to confound me, even though I recall someone (it might have been Charles) on this board saying that polls are products and that it is in the vendors’ best interests to keep things close, right down to the wire. It’s all packaged to keep them, the pollsters, relevant. I just hope that this is all that is going on. The whole vote stealing phenomenon makes me sick in my gut. I don’t care who is doing it.

  100. WMCB, on September 23rd, 2008 at 10:36 am

    LOL! Their endless greed will slow up the process and may give us the time we need to get decent bill. This is like if you set up the perfect snake oil sale and are about to close the deal, your brother in law suddenly shows up for his “cut” ….ruining the timing. ….funny if it wasn’t all so sad.

  101. From the progressive church, the daily sermon
    on our common alleged vice…

    http://www.progressive.org/mag/comment1008.html

  102. I am sorry Carol, but, LOOK, I cannot get on the train, if I am stuck under the bus.

    Have Congress bail me out from under the bus and I will jump aboard the derailing train.

    Fuck that sounds hopeless as hell.

  103. McCain’s new AD “Mum”:

  104. No way is Obama up in FL. Funny, one poll shows him up, and they are all out there, oh, McCain lost his lead. It’s crap.

  105. Does anyone know exactly why Hillary pulled out the Iran rally. My impression of Hillary is that while she may be unforgiving she’s not petty, I consider myself the same way so i’m not being criticle. So i was wondering if anyone knew exactly why she cancelled. the only thing I think I can think of is that she was told not too attend by her backstabbing party mate.

  106. There are conflicting polls not only for FL, but also for VA and to a lesser extent even national tracking, where Battleground has McCain +2, Ras tied, everyone else Obama up.

  107. Kim – no worries. That’s BO’s plan – he’s just happy that logistically everything works out well for him.

  108. My connection to the banking committee hearing suddenly broke up. Bye bye Sec. Paulson 😦

  109. Hillary could agree to a bill we might not like…but it would be so the home owner would get something….
    which would not happen expect for her insistence.

    The markets have a gun to the country’s head, but Hillary had a ace up her sleeve. She and Bill are the only ones people trust about the economy ….Which is why we are seeing so much of them on TV right now . If Hillary doesn’t sign off on something , it won’t fly with the public. She might agree to more goodies than they should have, but she’ll get something for the home owner…. if anyone can, Hill can. I know she will try her damndest and that’s more than anyone else will

  110. Hey all – just wanted to wave on my way out, and to say great posts from RD and SM77.

    Hope you’re all doing well today. Hugs to ya!

  111. I just want to thank all the Pumas for their tenacity. I really admire your determination to make democracy work. I am not political, but for some reason I have watched the presidential race this year. I feel like this is an episode of the “Twilight Zone”. I just don’t know who the good guys are anymore.

  112. Yup, the tired old melanine yack attack. But to those neo-Marxists I talked about earlier, it is quite plain that Obama is just another corporate shill, and they of course insist on breaking up the two-party system, and didn’t even seem to mind that I once considered Ron Paul. I tend to agree with their assessment of the two-party monopoly, but while I was once merely lukewarm to McCain earlier in the season, I now too think that Obama must be stopped.

    The mathematical consequences are important. Someone put forth earlier the stipulation that a third party vote is merely a “-1” derivation from Obama, while a McCain vote is a “-2” derivation, and thus the only rational anti-Obama vote at this time. This is obviously true.

    Crossing fingers won’t get this done. But that said. Own your own vote. That is the true American way…

    As for this bailout, it’s socialism, but it is also early American Federalism. It is my understanding that Woodrow Wilson privatized the banking industry with his creation of the Federal Reserve. So let’s get this right. Go slow. Get it right. And punish the robber barons who aren’t even building railroads or firing steel. They merely bundled paper scams. Thieves all!

  113. Rene – Bill and Hill are the good guys. Believe it. :o)

  114. JulieS9164, on September 23rd, 2008 at 11:17 am

    Exactly. And It’s why the press hate them.

  115. I am just so confused. I don’t understand why the dems would back somebody that is not qualified. Who wins?

  116. Rene, on September 23rd, 2008 at 11:09 am Said:
    I just want to thank all the Pumas for their tenacity. I really admire your determination to make democracy work. I am not political, but for some reason I have watched the presidential race this year. I feel like this is an episode of the “Twilight Zone”. I just don’t know who the good guys are anymore.

    ——————————

    That’s the saddest thing of all; now, when I read reports on what’s going on in government, bills, etc…I find myself not believing a WORD of either’s side argument for/against a particular issue.

    It’s scary not knowing who to believe, and I don’t have my own investigative staff to weed out the blatant lies/misrepresentation.

    I *thought* I could trust the Dems to do what’s right, but after uhbama and his flock of sheep, I’m pretty much lost.

    Without Bill/Hillary, I’m done.

  117. plural, its on cnn.com

  118. Sorry, I mean who stands to gain from having Obama as the prez?

  119. jonas8, thanks.

  120. Rene, on September 23rd, 2008 at 11:23 am

    IMO the billionaire crowd, which knows no party .

  121. When my girlfriend was steered into an ARM loan, ever though she qualified for a fixed loan and her payments doubled in 3 years to 75% of her take home pay and she was sinking financially, nobody came to bail her out. “Fortunately” one of her neighbors broke into her house and tried to murder her, and almost succeeded. Because of this she sued and got a settlement big enough to get her house refinanced. But her credit was wrecked and she still is paying too much for her mortgage, though she can make ends meet now. JN

  122. Dodd wants to know what happens if Congress doesn’t act quickly.

    We re-elect them and send the slugs back to Congress to keep f*cking us all over!

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  123. James – sorry about your girlfriend.

  124. Congress is leading the “witnesses”. These people are total creeps.

    Throw them all out now!

  125. Those witnesses are big boys and can take care of themselves.

  126. The point is they are parsing their questions so that the “ignorant audience – that would be you and me” -are having the questions answered the way they want them to be answered for the sound bites.

  127. Carol: re time limits at the debate. Oh, no, I want all America to see what a hemmer and hawer this ‘gifted orator’ and ‘silver-throated speaker’ really is. I hope he bores the crap out of everyone.

  128. The whole vote stealing phenomenon makes me sick in my gut. I don’t care who is doing it.

    Pale Lion & Destardi. I feel the same way right now. Our informational system of checks and balances (ie: a free press) has collapsed, so people can lie all they want, and they do, and there is no accountability. On to the next lie. And then we bump into friends, colleagues and acquaintances, and they repeat the exact same lies back to us as facts. It’s so warped, I feel really disoriented at this point.

    Even seeing our beautiful Hillary this morning (she does look tired): I know she is pure Democrat, so she is advocating for her agenda, but to me it is so basic: HE STOLE THE NOMINATION USING ANTI-DEMOCRATIC PRACTICES! I want someone to stand up and scream that to the heavens. Few people are aware of what actually went on, and to see everyone out working for his election is really depressing. HE CHEATED!!

  129. Drudge’s frontpage says it all. There is trouble within the Obama-Biden camp.

    BIDEN: OBAMA AD MOCKING MCCAIN ‘TERRIBLE’

    http://www.drudgereport.com/

  130. Isn’t someone going to blow the whistle on Dodd & Frank? They are now acting like pioneers, demanding regulations! It’s a farce.

  131. The NYT is trying hard to affect McCain’s debate strategy.

    “Can McCain restrain himself?” Mr. Birdsell asked. “And will Obama have the ability to place the pinpricks at the right moment to elicit that negative, slashing, awkwardly grinning McCain?”

    The pundits are trying to set this up for Obama by trying to make McCain afraid to go on the attack. Attacking is precisely what McCain SHOULD do, and show up Obama to be the farce he is, but the media is trying to prevent that by pre-spinning the story that if McCain hits Obama, he is “negative and angry and irascible”. They are scared shitless that JSM will hit him hard, and Bambi does not do well under attack. Bambi gets indignant and petulant and confused and affronted. So they are spinning like mad to try to scare McCain away from doing it.

    I hope McCain doesn’t listen, doesn’t play it safe. I hope he twists the knife, but good.

    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/23/us/politics/23mccain.html?partner=rssnyt&emc=rss

  132. parentofed – I stand corrected. You are correct.

  133. Wow, what do you think would happen in the US if this started to happen?

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article4810644.ece

  134. Yes, all the talk this morning on Joe was McCain’s temper. Willy stood silent. He can’t stand BO.

  135. Pale Lion, a -1 vote is still against Obama; please stop trying to get others to change their vote which as you say they own. This anti-Obama vote is just as rational as your McCain vote. Besides, don’t many ascribe Gore’s “defeat” to the Nader vote, another -1 vote?

  136. Mawm – looks like an economic plan to me! It actually goes straight to the heart of the situation. No need for Congressional Hearings, no bs, just plain cause and effect.

  137. I love it when McCain says we don’t have anymore time for Bo’s lectures…………………

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  138. Does anyone have a new post ready? If not, I do

  139. Carol, re: McCain’s famous temper, he reminds me a lot of my hubby (a Navy Commander), and yeah, he will go off on you verbally in a heartbeat. He has no patience with stupidity and dancing around a subject, he says what he thinks, sometimes explosively and angrily.

    He is also one of the most sane, reasonable, genuinely compassionate and kind people on the planet. But his personality is a little different – he’s not a suck up, puppies and warm fuzzies kinda guy. He’s a bit of a misanthrope.

    He won’t speak with dripping concern of anyone’s troubles – he’s likely to be a little cynical about people in general. But he will always be the first one to HELP in a concrete way, and he will do it quietly, and almost sheepishly. He talks tough, but he will not hesitate to give someone the shirt off his back, and never tell a soul he did it. He’s done it many times. If you watch my husband, his deeds belie his sometimes snappish verbiage.

    McCain reminds me a lot of my hubby in personality. Maybe it’s a Navy thing, I dunno, but I see a lot of similarities.

  140. BTW, the description above is of my husband, not McCain, per se. But I see a similar sort of person in McCain.

  141. Can someone please post a source link for the final delegate tally that shows Obama won by only 17 delegates? I’d like to send it to family, but I’d like to have a source link to back it up.

  142. Remember that Hillary’s delegate lead represents 34.5 million primary
    voters versus Obama’s delegate lead, which represents 1.1 million
    caucus voters. Delegates are not equal.

    Obama was the Chosen One to bring in the youth vote and the
    black vote (already Democratic), create a media movement,
    bring in the big bucks (Wall St.), and be the first Dem. to win since
    Clinton.
    Meanwhile, back home in Chicago (I received this email today,
    can’t vouch for its veracity, but if Hillary came out of this cesspool,
    don’t you think we’d hear about it?

    Body count. In the last six months 292 killed (murdered) in Chicago, 221 killed in Iraq.

    Sens. Barack Obama & Dick Durbin, Rep. Jesse Jackson Jr., Gov. Rod Blogojevich, House leader Mike Madigan, Atty. Gen. Lisa Madigan (daughter of Mike), Mayor Richard M. Daley (son of Mayor Richard J. Daley)…..our leadership in Illinois…..all Democrats.

    Thank you for the combat zone in Chicago. Of course they’re all blaming each other.

    Can’t blame Republicans, there aren’t any!

    State pension fund $44 Billion in debt, worst in country. Cook County ( Chicago) sales tax 10.25%highest in country. (Look’em up if you want). Chicago school system one of the worst in country.This is the political culture that Obama comes from in Illinois. He’s gonna ‘fix’ Washington politics?

  143. The federal bail-out is a bad idea. Why reward these gluttonous Wall St. barons for their failures, using U.S. taxpayers’ money? Instead, why not call in all those big fat bonuses, golden parachutes and pricey perqs that were awarded to those companies’ top executives (for failing) and use THAT to bail them out. Unless the feds plan to pay every U.S. taxpayer a big dividend for fronting the money for the bail-out, we need another Boston Tea Party, and we need it soon. The do-nothing Dem-controlled Congress (up to its eyeballs in corruption and self-serving greed) is as bad as, if not worse than, the GWB administration. We, the people, have had no one to act in our best interests for at least eight years. Time to say, again, ‘no taxation without representation!’ The best candidate (Hillary) had her rightful nomination stolen by the corrupt Dem leadership. As a Senator, yes, she’s brilliant as always, but from that vantage point there’s only so much she can do. Voters, therefore, really have only two options this Nov. Voting BO — who was ‘selected’ by Dem leadership through a deliberately fraudulent, corrupt process — is not possible for those who still believe in standing up for the principles and processes on which our democracy was founded. Voting third party is meaningless — essentially throwing away a precious vote. Only voting McCain/Palin — two reformers with the intelligence, wide appeal and strength to take back the GOP from the extreme rightwing nut jobs and rein in the decadent, wanton Dems — is the only vote that makes any sense. Such a vote from a Democrat also cancels out a vote for BO. That’s simple math that this 38-year Dem can understand and support. I say Just Say No Deal to the bail-out and to BO. Won’t it be interesting when BO winds up voting with GWB on the bail-out?

  144. Limbaugh just said BO is down 4 in Ohio, but up TEN in VA, When did that happen???

  145. CB: You’re right, of course. Obama is the second politician I can remember [first was Bush] who has never had to defend his past. For example, Bill Clinton was trashed for every bit of Arkansas history for the previous 50 years.

    McCain wouldn’t even have to mention Rezko, Ayers, etc. Saw clips of Obama’s district. Bring up Dem corruption in IL/Chicago. Who will McCain lose? Chicago or IL? They’re O country anyway.

  146. WaPo says this about VA today:

    And the tight race — likely voters are divided 49 percent for Obama, 46 percent for McCain — foretells a fierce battle across Virginia over the next six weeks.

  147. Carol,

    Been watching the hearing this morning on CNBC – they don’t cut away for commentary ver often.

    I am VERY concerned that the people pushing the current version of the bailout plan don’t have a clue abou t how to best implement it and are selling American taxpayers down the drain.

    The plan is like an amoeba now. Ridiculous.

    And yes, the softball questions by some of the Senators are unconscionable.

    I wish McCain and Hillary were on this committee to ask the tough questions hat need to be asked of the three amigos: Paulson, Bernake & Coxx

    We need accountability and oversight on this bill. I am concerned that in the attempt to push this bill thru Congress this week just to pass “something fast” that it is going to have a lot of added goodies that do not need to be in the bill, and that there is going to be WAAY TOO MUCH leeway without the proper safety net of accountability and oversight.

    Does anyone have a link to Chris Dodd’s latest plan? I hear it is some 40-50 pages long. Heard the initial plan was 3-6 pages long.

    This bill should be streamlined with pinpoint accuracy. It is looking more and more like a shotgun appraoch. I think that is a mistake.

    What is going on up there in the do nothing Congress? They really must tkae the American people for fools! They have traded in the interests of the American people for their own. It’s the ol’ Potomac two-step. To the good ol’ boys in Washington: I don’t dance!

  148. Charles as an former finance and audit manager for The Department of the Navy I think your explanation is spot on. The problem is that the “derivative” interest instrument survives the bail out transaction.

    If the government buys the $ 750 billion in derivitaves that have decreased in “real” value do to increased inflationary pressure and rising interest rates, then through the regular process of the business cycle the climate shanges into a low inflation low interest rate enviroment these “overvalued” securities could become “undervalued” , that is worth more than the price that was paid for them. The owner of the securities (the US Government/read us) could then profit from them recieve more from the sale of them than it cost them to buy these securities.

    If instead the government just “insures” or “backs” these securities and allows original ownership to remain with the “holding” institution then these brokerage houses will profit (again) from the turn of the business cycle.

    In the second senario we the people assume the risk without any profit potential. This is hardly fair.

    In The late 70’s and early 80’s the government recieved securities for Chrysler Corporation to ensure one of Americas largest employers did not go bankrupt in the middle of a real tough recession.

    The Government “paid” $ 1.5-3 billion for these assets. Several years later Chrysler under Lee Iacocca’s leadership turned the company around. The securities were sold for a profit of $ 2.2 billion making a tidy profit for “we the people.”

    This should be the template for any future bailout the profit from any future government financed bailouts should rest with the people (thats you and me) and not used to justify another round of large bonuses for the guys who got us into this.

    Fuzzybeargville

  149. fif: Doesn’t there seem to be a poll for everyone, every single day?

  150. McKinney has unveiled a 10-point plan for the current economic mess.

  151. NEW POLL RESULTS: CLINTON SUPPORTERS MORE LIKELY TO USE DERROGATORY ADJECTIVES WHEN DESCRIBING AA

    Phew, that’s a huge load off. I’ve been dieing to rip off a verbal rage at the black high school student next to me on the subway but felt hindered that it was inappropriate. No more. Freedom at last.

    Also, maybe the pollsters should stop sending these polls to ignernt, white old bags like me so they can get a broader sampling. Hmmm?

    http://www.comcast.net/articles/news-politics/20080923/AP.Yahoo.Poll.Hillary_s.Voters/

  152. I started reading through these comments and they may have changed but I felt an urgency to add my own comment. Even HRC recognizes that there is some immediate requirement to address the next phase of this crisis. I thought the testimony this am of Bernanke, Paulson, Cox and the Conservator for Fannie/Freddie did detail the crux of the crisis and how intervention is both urgent and how it can be effective. (Sorry but the testimony of Senators on the Dodd committee to me just came off as political posturing and preening and totally unimpressive.) Paulson did make an ad hoc response to all the Senatorial bashing of the “lack of an oversight plan” by saying that he was asked in the meeting with congressional leaders for an outline of what was needed for intervention to stabilize markets, that he gave a 3 page outline which did not outline the oversight needed because that was congressional prerogative territory, that he welcomed and needed the oversight—to detail how the Senate/House would conduct oversight of his work. I think that is accurate. I think that is the job of the Senate and the House and I expect them to do it—or else. I am waiting for some member of those committees to stand up and say, “If we are going to restore the confidence of the American people and the world then we must enact legislation that prohibits members of the House and Senate sitting on committees that regulate and supervise these actions from taking any campaign contributions from these companies, their lobbyists, their employees or employee family members.” When that happens we will know they are standing up for the people. In the detail of this intervention I am not seeing that company’s who will be helped are necessarily making some kind of great profit from it—I think there is more of the rest of us not being plunged into the abyss. As for HRC’s home owner piece, I would like to know how that fits with the Fannie Freddie restructuring—is the F and F takeover designed to do that redesign of existing mortgages to keep homeowners from defaulting? It sounded to me like that was part of the FF plan but there is so little rational analysis or journalistic investigation going on. That to me is what we should be demanding.

  153. shanges should be changes – sorry for the long post!

    It really is this complicated.

    Fuzzybeargville

  154. The problem is that our economy effects the rest of the world. We have to hope for the best plan to fix it quickly and then fine tune it.

    I am confident Hillary will be the best judge of the specfics regarding how the money is spent and McCain and Hillary will make sure it is transparent. She knows 2012 is coming and wants to biologically do the right thing.

    CAROL HAKA 👿

  155. What I am waiting for is the McCain ad with BO declaring “we don’t need no stinking committee” to fix this. He truly is ADD.

    Please help us get to November 5. I can’t take anymore.

  156. I recently polled the Varvel family and the results are:

    80% McCain Palin
    20% undecideded(I am in this batch)

    In all fairness 55% of Varvel voters are Rebublican leaning and 35% are Democrats or Democratic leaning. the remaining 10% are independent non-affiliated.

    As an asside 70% of Varvel voters prefer Pepsi to Coke.

    No Varvel Voters believe the moon landing was “faked”.

    While an amazing 60% Varvel voters believe that alien life exsists somewhere out there in the universe.

    90% of Varvel Voters voted in the last election 10% were to young.

    A majority of Male Varvel Voters think Sarah Palin is one “Hot” momma, though 100% of married Male Varvel Voters feel their wives are “Hotter.”

    1 Varvel Voter believes his wife is a better hunter than Sarah Palin.

    All Varvel Voters appreciate John McCains service to is country.

    90% of Varvel Voters believe Senator Obama isunfit to serve as president given his current resume.

    Just thought you might like this…

    fuzzybeargville

  157. What’s the hurry? Surly you jest. The Federal Reserve Board does not want another institution, like Bear Stearns and Lehman Bros. to melt down. It’s a matter of liquidity.

    For what is worth, here is how I see the political game being played. First, the Bush administration is as incompetent as we knew it (My Pet Goat and Katrina), but even the incompetent is forced to act, and by October 2007, any president, even an incompetent president would have acted. Bush did not act to correct the problem because it hoped to give the problem to the next president. The demise of Lehman Bros, forced the hand of the administration to do something.

    Second, the Democratic Congress, has been playing another political game. Pelosi and Reid wanted a bad economy to elect more Democrats to Congress and to elect Obama to the WH. Obama wouldn’t have a prayer of chance in a fair economy. Since the elders of the Democratic Party had the fix for Precious, a bad economic environment was part of the scheme. On top of that, if Congress had done something about it, Hillary’s proposals would have been part of the mix, and Pelosi and Reid were not about to make Hillary look good.

    Hillary has been screaming for Congress and the administration to do something since March 2007, but the main actors looked the other way knowing she was right for their own political games.

  158. Carol-

    One thing about not having a horse in this race is I get to take potshots at both sides and am totally seen as unbiased…

    Carol November 5th is less that 45 days away!

    the champaign is already chilling!

    fuzzybeargville

  159. alexei – I’m sorry. I was just repeating what I often see here, congealing my own thoughts out loud so to speak. Perhaps, I should merely lurk. My most humble apologies to those of you who were offended by my -1, -2 sandbox arithmetic…

    Guess I’ll just stick to murmuring No Bama, No Way, No How, to myself.

  160. The question is: What will I do after November 5th? where will I go?

    Fuzzybeargville

  161. Pale Lion your comments are respected here this is the confluence! In economics unlike math there are always several good wasys to fix any problem in math only 1 correct answer exsists to the equasion 2+2=?.

    There are many ways to defeat Obama at the ballot box too!

    fuzzybeargville

  162. Ben Smith over at Politico is running with the story on Biden’s gaffe about FDR:

    September 23, 2008

    Biden garbles Depression history

    Joe Biden’s denunciation of his own campaign’s ad to Katie Couric got so much attention last night that another odd note in the interview slipped by.

    He was speaking about the role of the White House in a financial crisis.

    “When the stock market crashed, Franklin Roosevelt got on the television and didn’t just talk about the princes of greed,” Biden told Couric. “He said, ‘Look, here’s what happened.'”

    As Reason’s Jesse Walker footnotes it: “And if you owned an experimental TV set in 1929, you would have seen him. And you would have said to yourself, ‘Who is that guy? What happened to President Hoover?'”

    http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Biden_garbles_Depression_history.html#comments

    The Obamabots are freaking out (again)!!

    Love it!! 🙂

  163. The media love Obama, and are doing their damnest to elect him.

    Even my regional Eastern Kentucky newspaper has a totally superfluous column by pro-Obama now Obama-shill CNHI Ronnie Ellis that repeats the Sunday story of Hillary’s visit to Pikeville. Ronnie once again quotes a couple of Clinton folks [one NEA, one UMWA} that have been enlightened to The One. Paper also has Marsha Mercer of Media General criticizing McCain on economy, touting O’s steadfastness. This is all crap.

    The media giving the economy issue to The One person in America who knows less than I do about the economy, the Fall R*cist Rerun, and the upswing in the polls all tell me this is pushback for the McCain surge.

  164. Please help us get to November 5. I can’t take anymore.

    LOL! I know Carol. I’m hanging on by my fingernails these days. It’s been a long haul.

    Re: the bailout. Isn’t it all a bit of the fox watching the hen house? I mean really–Chris Dodd is ASKING the questions. He should be the one under interrogation right now. It’s absurd.

  165. Pale Lion, please don’t go back to lurking! I enjoy your comments.

  166. Pale Lion: don’t go! I enjoy your comments. We all fumble around here, and sometimes step on each other’s toes. “It’s all good.”

  167. Seeing some better questions to Paulson and Bernake now from those Senators. Finally!!

  168. Hi Folks,

    It looks like Obama is picking up in the polls. Is this for real? He hasn’t said a thing about the economy, but yet he is gaining. Do you think Hillary being out there on this issue is helping him? I hope not. He clearly is at a loss.

  169. Thanks fuzzy – well, not here in DC. It’s Bam Bam all the way to the three electorals.

    In a September 11-13 poll by American Research Group, Inc. the news is bleak. Of likely voters, 82% proBama.

  170. The Coporations and their media arms love Obama, which should make us all question their motives. He is in the tank for the corporations and to hell with the people. These are the same assholes that pushed Bush down our throats and that horrible Iraq war.

    It ia all sooooo Orwellian!!!!!!

  171. The polls would always show Obama up in the primaries, but Hillary won in alot of the states.

  172. fif, on September 23rd, 2008 at 11:48 am Said:

    Even seeing our beautiful Hillary this morning (she does look tired): I know she is pure Democrat, so she is advocating for her agenda, but to me it is so basic: HE STOLE THE NOMINATION USING ANTI-DEMOCRATIC PRACTICES! I want someone to stand up and scream that to the heavens. Few people are aware of what actually went on, and to see everyone out working for his election is really depressing. HE CHEATED!!
    ———————————–

    I want this so badly but sadly no one is going to do it. That is why I don’t think there are any truly good guys in this thing. Everyone is willing to pretend like nothing happened. Obama always gets away with everything. He did it to Alice Palmer. There is no justice. For the first time in months, I am worried that he might win. He will do it by cheating of course. I want him exposed for all his lies. He is not special although he is treated like that. All the dems are willing to give him a free pass 😯 What has he done to deserve all this?

  173. Downticket, I feel the same way. What HAS he done? Or is it something he will be expected to do? I don’t know.

    This is so frustrating. Now we know that the actual delegate was even closer than we had suspected, yet there seems to be no one in the media or government who will expose this. The only media people who come to mind as fair-minded are Greta Van Susteren and Lou Dobbs. I know that PumaPac cc’s many of the prowls to those two, but are they receiving and reading them? I feel as though we need to do something more than blog and try to spread the word among acquaintances, but I’m not sure what or how.

  174. RezkoTrialWatch: Rezko due back in court today to face mortgage fraud charges

    September 23, 2008

    In a brief item, ABC News 7 Chicago reports that convicted political fixer, Antoin “Tony” Rezko (see below) is due back in court today, September 23, 2008, “to face charges of mortgage fraud.”

    Rezko, along with two other men, are accused of rigging the price of pizza franchises to fraudulently obtain more than $10 million in loans.

    The indictment for this case “alleges that Rezko fraudulently obtained more than $10 million in loans for a pizza restaurant business from General Electric Capital Corp. (GECC) and also defrauded investors in that business.”

    Rezko is accused of defrauding General Electric Capital Corporation in connection with a $4.5 million loan he obtained from that lender supposedly to buy a chain of Papa John’s pizza franchises in Milwaukee with a straw buyer and inflated prices, misrepresenting his role in the transaction and then defaulting on the loan.Source

    Rezko was convicted in April 2008, on 16 charges of “fraud, bribery and money laundering in a political corruption case. His sentencing for that conviction is scheduled for next month,” ABC News reported.

    Rezko Guilty of 16 Counts in Corruption Case, June 4, 2008.

  175. Remember the old western movies when the rustlers were ready to take off with all the cattle? Just as the bad guy was opening the gate he’d hear a tell-tale click. He’d slowly turn around and there would be John Wayne, grinning, with a loaded rifle pointed right at him.

    What Congress, Wall Street and the current Administration need to hear right now is a collective “rifle click” from the American taxpayers. Somehow we need to let them know we are watching. We are not about to let anyone “ruslte” 700 million of our hard-earned tax dollars without letting us know who is getting it, what the terms are, and without a way to override bad decisions and hold the recepients accountable.

    We need a “rifle click”. Maybe we could demonstrate our collective power by declaring a “bank-free day”, one day when we refuse to use the banks or their services. Or something like that. Anyone else have an idea for a “rifle click”?

  176. Thanks fif & jules – I appreciate your kindness. I’m not as much thin-skinned as I recognize that I can tend to be a roar, so I find myself often having to scale back those tenacious tendencies to fit into the mix. However, I am not ashamed to admit that I find myself quite in need of the Confluence as a political refuge since I discovered RD’s site about a month ago now (when it began to occur to me that I was suddenly very much afraid of an Obama presidency), despite the warm fuzzy pride I had in watching that 2004 DNC speech by the unknown young orator from Illinois.

    So yes, I thank every one of you sincere Conflucians for your patriotic hospitality and companionship in these critical (or is that crucial?) times. I have learned much here, and do not want to jeopardize my standing.

    On this financial crisis, I have just one phrase:

    Give ’em hell, Hillary…

    Keep us in our homes. Put the thieves in the Big House!

  177. Okay, that was three phrases. Guess my math is indeed somewhat suspect. Ha!

  178. Pale Lion: I bet you could find a cool avatar to go with your name.

    kjmontana: A bank-free day sounds intriguing. That might actually entail a no-purchase day: no credit or debit cards usage, etc. But it would have to be large-scale to make an impression. I like it!

  179. I think the first provision of this bailout is that every politician who received money from any of the bailed out companies should be forced to give it back.

  180. That Politico story about Biden’s gaffe is actually pretty funny (“What happened to President Hoover?”) I read a few comments and it’s fascinating. Somebody asked what the big deal about this was! It just means that Biden wasn’t around during the Depression, while McCain was around during the Civil War. Clever, isn’t it?

    There was one great comment, though: “Too bad Al Gore didn’t invent the TV earlier.”

  181. jules – I looked into the gravitar thingie a few days back, but failed to reach the end of the tunnel. Perhaps I’ll give it another shot. Thanks…

    BV Swing Voter – I wholeheartedly agree with the politician accountability clause with regards to this bailout. MAKE THEM ALL PAY THE PRICE. They took the risk, manipulated the system, and failed.

    Public servants, my ass!

  182. Afternoon!! or something—-hey, don’t freak about the polls. There always seems to be a lag time to them-these would be about the time of the non-stop media buzz about econ. tanking. I am slowly starting to believe that he can’t win—-even though any Dem should be able to win now. The econ. is so bad, it’s like spotting your opponent 10 points before you start. If he can’t move in this environment–only himself to blame.

    Anybody notice lately how Obama’s voice seems to have changed–somehow, thicker, slower.

  183. Yes, it seems that the Government wants to change this problem in one day, when it took years to make. Forgive me for sounding Democratic, but it seems that the Republicans are trying to make themselves look good before the elections. However, I think that many Americans are in such a struggle right now, that it might be a little to late.

  184. Looks to me like obama does better in the polls when he and Biden keep their mouths shut.

  185. Downticket, that is why I will vote McCain/Palin. I’m worried Obama will try to steal the vote in VA. I don’t even feel comfortable saying I’ll vote McKinney if VA is not polling close. I just don’t trust the Obama/Chicago thug machine to play by the rules. Obama’s political success has been built on bending the rules, and breaking them if necessary.

  186. Dhyana and kjmontana-with you!!!!

  187. jfair, Republicans aren’t winning their voters over with this. I’ll be shocked if my R Congressman is re-elected this year, actually, I will believe it was rigged if he is elected. The voting Rs are fed up with all this spend, spend, spend of our Reps, it’s disgusting. I see a huge downticket D win this year, more so than 2006.

  188. This “little bailout” hasn’t even addressed what is coming down the road. What all of these money changers are refusing to talk about is the credit card crisis which is looming.

    http://www.onlineguideto.com/55-credit-cards-debt-crisis
    Americans owe $850 billion in credit card debt. The world’s 54 poorest countries owe $412 billion in foreign debt.

  189. Linda C., which makes me wonder if Obama was TOLD that Biden would be his VP pick. I find the Biden “choice” very suspect considering his connections with the predatory credit card companies.

    Just sayin’.

  190. gmx17
    I don’t know, could be. I know Biden supported the stricter measures on filing for bankruptcy. Although people are still filing for bankruptcy in record numbers despite the tighter parameters. I don’t know how Biden voted on regulating credit card interest even though I know Obama voted against it.

    The figure for 850 billion in credit card debt is from Nov of 2007. Any guess what it is today? This is unsecured debt not even remotely tied to any asset.. People can’t pay this either and we will have another bailout down the road.

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