• Tips gratefully accepted here. Thanks!:

  • Recent Comments

    Ivory Bill Woodpecke… on How is Hillary doing?  
    Niles on How is Hillary doing?  
    Ivory Bill Woodpecke… on How is Hillary doing?  
    pm317 on How is Hillary doing?  
    riverdaughter on How is Hillary doing?  
    pm317 on How is Hillary doing?  
    pm317 on How is Hillary doing?  
    riverdaughter on How is Hillary doing?  
    pm317 on How is Hillary doing?  
    riverdaughter on How is Hillary doing?  
    Cbug on How is Hillary doing?  
    JMS on Escape from cruelty and mob…
    pm317 on How is Hillary doing?  
    pm317 on How is Hillary doing?  
    Niles on How is Hillary doing?  
  • Categories


  • Tags

    abortion Add new tag Afghanistan Al Franken Anglachel Atrios bankers Barack Obama Bernie Sanders big pharma Bill Clinton cocktails Conflucians Say Dailykos Democratic Party Democrats Digby DNC Donald Trump Donna Brazile Economy Elizabeth Warren feminism Florida Fox News General Glenn Beck Glenn Greenwald Goldman Sachs health care Health Care Reform Hillary Clinton Howard Dean John Edwards John McCain Jon Corzine Karl Rove Matt Taibbi Media medicare Michelle Obama Michigan misogyny Mitt Romney Morning Edition Morning News Links Nancy Pelosi New Jersey news NO WE WON'T Obama Obamacare OccupyWallStreet occupy wall street Open thread Paul Krugman Politics Presidential Election 2008 PUMA racism Republicans research Sarah Palin sexism Single Payer snark Social Security Supreme Court Terry Gross Texas Tim Geithner unemployment Wall Street WikiLeaks women
  • Archives

  • History

    September 2008
    S M T W T F S
    « Aug   Oct »
     123456
    78910111213
    14151617181920
    21222324252627
    282930  
  • RSS Paul Krugman: Conscience of a Liberal

    • An error has occurred; the feed is probably down. Try again later.
  • The Confluence

    The Confluence

  • RSS Suburban Guerrilla

    • An error has occurred; the feed is probably down. Try again later.
  • RSS Ian Welsh

    • You Will Never Be Free of Identity Politics
      (MANDOS POST, people who don’t want to read things they disagree with please stop here) I don’t normally watch horror movies, but I made an exception and recently watched the horror film Get Out. It’s a horror-satire movie that constructs its underlying trope from the concept of racist microaggressions, and it’s one of the best films […]
  • Top Posts

How To Win The Presidential Argument: Democrats Don’t Get It

Go Away, You Fucking Idiot!

Go Away, You Fucking Idiot!

I have maintained for years that Democrats, in general, have been historically good at governing, but terrible at framing. When a Democrat has been good at both, he has been able to achieve the White House and stay there for the full amount of time allotted to him, unless tragedy has cut his life short (as in the case of John F. Kennedy). However, this combination is so rare that only one President since FDR has achieved it: William Jefferson Clinton. His wife, Hillary Clinton, also possesses that combination, and even more strongly than he. But alas, her own party wanted someone different, someone who possesses a Red-Sea-parting penis, who could bring them new voters and kick the old, non-Whole Foods-going, non-computer-using Clinton Democrats to the curb.

How’s that strategy working out for them so far? Well, let’s see. McCain is kicking Obama’s ass in the Western and Southern states that Obama was supposed to turn blue. The swing states, which Hillary easily won in the Primary, are starting to move towards McCain. So, as we Hillary supporters all have been saying for several months, Obama’s proposed “New Democratic Party” and “New Electoral Map” were vaporware.

For being aware of these facts, and for knowing that Obama is illegitimate, unqualified and unelectable, I personally have been accused of being stupid, angry, a liar, immature, hateful, a Rush Limbaugh devotee, and a Republican by people who do not know me. People who do know me have been telling me I’m wrong and I should listen to Gloria Steinem and Hillary Clinton when making my choice. Why? Am I not allowed to do my own research and make up my own mind?

Apparently not. Because here’s something else we Democrats suck at: Winning an argument.

If you have watched a lot of debates, you have probably noticed that being right on the facts and issues doesn’t make you a good debater. What does, is a mastery of framing and the ability to read the question behind the question. If you are able to understand the reason why the question is being asked, and to turn the question into a frame through which your stance on that particular issue is seen in a favorable light, then you will win the argument.

What Not To Do: “Because There’s Something Wrong With You!”

Here is a typical example of how Obama and his devotees argue. Yes, it’s the Great Orange Satan. Unfortunately, we must go into the belly of ObamaNation in order to understand it.

What McCain and Palin offer is a chance to indulge in the ugliest aspects of small town culture. It’s a heady opportunity to sneer at the achievements of those who have excelled. It’s an open offer to stand at the political podium and throw trash at those leftist extremists who actually think that everyone is just as American and just as patriotic as Jane and Jimmy Middleamerica. It’s an exciting enticement to wallow in public hate flavored with the forbidden spice of racism.

In its own way, it’s a testimony far louder than any delivered by Bill Cosby that this kind of small town culture — that conservative culture — is just as dangerous, and just as endangered, as any in this country. When you look at something like the web page of Levi Johnston with it’s proud declaration of being a red neck and it’s joyful talk of “kicking ass,” you’re looking at a culture that’s sick. When a candidate for vice-president denigrates the value of community service, you’re looking at a culture that’s sick. When you drop in on a GOP meeting and find boxes of “Barack Waffles” decorated by racist stereotypes and buttons bearing phrases like “If Obama is president, will we still call it the White House?” you’re looking at a culture that’s sick.

The person who wrote this is called “Devilstower.”

I would like to know what “Devilstower” thinks is the purpose of an argument. And yes, this is a serious question. Is it to call the other side childish names? Is it to “prove” your intellectual and moral superiority over the other side? Or, is it to win the person you are arguing with over to your side?

When Obamans take this approach to trying to beat McCain/Palin, they are merely playing into all the stereotypes that Republicans have used against Democrats for years. Yes, this is liberal hatred. Yes, this is liberal elitism. Yes, this is dismissiveness and disdain for our fellow Americans. And from the outside looking in, it’s an extremely ugly sight.

I ask you, where is Obama’s positive argument that people should vote for him instead of McCain? Where is the re-framing, the back-and-forth, the meat-and-potatoes discussion about plans and issues? It’s nowhere to be seen. Instead, Obama simply states that the other side is horrible, and that anyone who’s anyone knows that. 

Obama’s latest ad, to which I linked above, is a textbook illustration of this point. It makes the point that McCain is out of touch and doesn’t email or use the computer. Putting aside that the ad is misleading, because McCain has his wife email for him due to his injuries, what meat-and-potatoes issue is this addressing? The economy? The war? The Constitution?

[cricket cricket cricket]

This ad, like all of Obama’s campaign, is only aimed at true believers. And that brings me to the second point.

What Not To Do: “Fine, We Don’t Need You Anyway!”

Obama’s campaign, and his followers, have done nothing whatsoever to reach out to the Americans who refuse to worship at the altar of Obama, even those in their own Party. In fact, they have done everything in their power to further alienate us. Throughout the campaign, we recalcitrant Clinton Dems, Independents and Republicans have gotten the message loud and clear: Go The Fuck Away.

When you argue that you don’t NEED to win the argument, that means you know you have already lost. And the people you are arguing with know it.

What To Do: Take a Page from Hillary’s Book

Study Hillary’s campaign. Study every debate she was in, which she won hands-down. This woman has got it down to a science. If someone asks her a question she doesn’t like, she either doesn’t answer it, or re-frames it to showcase her in a good light. If she likes the question, she answers it in clear, concise bullet-points that show her absolute mastery of the topic. But never, NEVER does she accuse the questioner of being stupid or sick, or petulantly claim the question shouldn’t be asked. She understands that politicians need the voters in order to win elections, and that debating is a critical skill in the quest to win them to your side.

And if you don’t win the voters to your side – if you let the Republicans win the argument – then you lose the election.

Perhaps in 2012, our National Party will have the brains to recognize a winner when they see one, and overlook the fact that the best man for the job turned out to be a woman.

The PUMA Un-Party didn’t form soon enough this year, and only had a few months to try to force the DNC to nominate Hillary. Our successes were remarkable nonetheless – had the delegates been allowed to vote their consciences, Hillary would be well on her way to the White House by now. But after McCain wins in November, we will have four years to make this argument and win it, my fellow Americans.

Who’s with me?

Advertisements

263 Responses

  1. I need to get you a new hammer since you consistently keep “hitting the nail on the head” which must be wearing out the current one. So true, so true, so true!

  2. Awww, PJ….thanks!

  3. After viewing the SNL video I could see Tina Fey’s hand all over it. She was a Hillary supporter and the skit called to mind how much she was so qualified and ready to be president.

    Not being able to root for either ticket this year, remaining on the sidelines does offer one the opportunity to lower the blood pressure however. We are supremely fu*cked this time around. Got my reading material piled up for the next couple of years. Oh well.

    Down with the DNC!

  4. madamab
    *sigh* critical thinking seems to be passe… If it weren’t, Hillary would be the nominee. Nice article 🙂

  5. OMG – just received this love-note from an Obamabot who found my site:

    The idea that Hillary is more or less electable than Obama, and that she would be the second coming of FDR , is light years beyond laughable. Both of them are barely liberal DLC centrists with enormous amounts of baggage.

    Sorry — there are only two conceivable explanations for why you, or anybody that self-describes as a liberal Democrat, is still peddling this line.

    1) You have a problem with African-Americans.

    or

    2) You’ve lost your mind.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

    Could he have illustrated my point any more perfectly?

  6. The essence of the pro-Obama argument is:

    If you do not vote for Obama you are

    1. Stupid

    2. Evil

    3. Rac*st

    4. All of the above

  7. Obama may well lose in November, it’s too close to call today. But if he does what makes you think that the party will accept the Clintons back into the fold? If the past is any indicator, they will just blame this fiasco on Bill and Hillary and continue to lose the mid- terms and 2012.

  8. I’m with you totally!

  9. McCain’s campaign paid attention to Hillary’s campaign and learned a lot from it. They admitted it. Some journalist said something about it being a loosing strategy but the idiot forgot that Hillary actuall beat Obama. I think her electoral vote was 303 or 330. These reporters forget that Obama’s lead came from caucuses. In primaries she beat him and therefore McCain is going to win because her strategy wasn’t a loosing strategy.

  10. MrM:

    What makes you think the Clintons will accept the party back into the fold?

  11. McCain is holding his own in FL and Ohio. We need to make PA PUMA territory. We need to put all our resource time, and energy into PA. Obama must win PA. If we can take PA out of the hands of Obama, PUMA will be one political force forever. We have Corbett and we have Obama’s bitter statement about the good folks of PA. This should be a PUMA Take AWAY. We need a map of all the rural area’s Hillary won and concentrate on them. You don’t have to vote McCain just take PA away from Obama

  12. Pssh. Hillary cannot be blamed for BO’s disaster. He’s made his bed and fallen out of it all on his own. They’ve been good team players.

    Besides, once he loses, they ARE the fold. The rest of the Democrats will have to suck up to them because it will be clear that they were the winning ticket and they were chucked out the back door. Everyone knows it now and will know it in four years, even if I have to travel door-to-door to tell them.

  13. Perfect, Madamab, to read your new post after my phone conversation a little while ago with my Obot friend! Sounds like you hit a nerve with a couple of people on this one.

  14. MrMike – It’s called self-preservation. I’m hoping that when Obama loses, the folks who never were comfortable with the selected nominee will take the party back from the Deaniacs.

    Plus, we PUMAs will continue to have a lot to say to our elected representatives about the unacceptable manner in which they have conducted themselves since they took power in 2007.

  15. Go, Madamab. You have a way with logic and words. Namely, you’re right like always!

  16. Not me

    After 4 more years of strengthening the unitary executive and turning the judiciary and DOJ into the enforcement arms of the RNC, 2012 will be unwinnable, regardless of candidate.

    McCain/Palin= the end of the American experiment.

  17. are you kidding me? “who’s with me?”. we all are with you one hundred percent and then some.

    i am so happy i was introduced to you column by one of my closest friends.

  18. I am one of those people who the Democratic party abandoned long ago. I strongly believe in the right to keep and bear arms and while I support many of the positions of the Democratic party I won’t vote a party with such an antu-gun platform.
    So I originally opposed Mr Obama on that point alone. I don’t believe his recent position changes either, or, frankly, that of Ms. Clinton. I have since looked at Mr. Obama’s record, what I could find of it, on many other issues and am now convinced he would be a disaster.
    I have voted for Democrats where I could, I supported our Governor in the last election because she signed an important piece of self defense legislation and of course there’s John Dingell. A lot of us pro gun people do not support the GOP on most other issues.
    I want to thank those of you here for all your information and links about BO, I appreciate all I have learned here. JN

  19. Thanks, james! Welcome!

    🙂

  20. Welcome to both Jameses, actually!

  21. madam – I’m with you.

    Political Science 101 – Never blame or get angry at the voters – you need them.

    Axelrod and Obama and all his supporters skipped the first day of class apparently.

  22. The Obats come here sputtering and full of righteous indignation that there must be something wrong with us for not seeing the “greatness that is Obama”. Then they call us names if we refused to get onboard.

    Wrong approach Obamabots. Most of us have done our homework, are pretty savvy about the issues, and refuse to approve the illegitimacy of this candidate. Simply telling us to just shrug off our resolve and vote for this sham is an insult to our intelligence and integrity.

    You wanted him, now you’ve got him. Don’t expect us to pick up any more pieces of the glass ceiling and assist him over the finish line. We are not yo yo’s. You did not need us then, you shouldn’t need us now.

    Live with it.

  23. madamab,

    What do you mean “Democrats Don’t Get It”? Of course they do.

    How else do you explain their brilliant strategy called “We will insult you until you vote for us”?

  24. madamab,

    What do you mean “Democrats Don’t Get It”? Of course they do.

    How else do you explain their brilliant strategy called “We will insult you until you vote for us”?

  25. PJ – Yes, and when you treat people that way, don’t be surprised if they respond in kind.

    If you want to convince people, you’d better have some facts on your side.

    Like, for example, it’s amazing how Hillary jumped every hurdle that every Democratic nominee has ever jumped in the past, yet somehow we are to believe that she was not more electable than he was. He didn’t win Ohio, PA, FL, MI, WV, NY, CA, MA, NH, NJ or any other important traditional Democratic state. But he won Utah and Kansas! Yeeeeeearrrrggggghhhh!

  26. madamab, this piece is perfect. Bravo!

  27. How else do you explain their brilliant strategy called “We will insult you until you vote for us”?

    LMAO!

  28. To describe an Obamabot (or Obamazoid) select only two from the list below. Why only two? Because you can’t be all three at once.

    1. Vote for The One

    2. Be honest

    3. Be intelligent

  29. MABlue – LOL!

    And I just love how that Obamabot came on my site and immediately called me an insane r*cist. Another Unity Ambassador!

  30. madamab, I love your captioned emoticons. I still laugh recalling “Why do the stupid bitches hate me?”

    And that Obot email takes my breath away with its arrogance. Such people should not be let any closer to government than the Obama-waffle racists. They are two sides of one coin.

  31. A new Star Tribune Minnesota Poll shows that the race is now a dead heat between Barack Obama and John McCain, each supported by 45 percent of likely voters in the state.

    (snip)

    The poll found that McCain has made gains across the board since a May Minnesota Poll that showed him trailing by 13 points. He has picked up considerable support among men and to a lesser degree among women. He also has boosted his standing with whites, young voters and all levels of household income and education.

    Strikingly, the article concludes that Obama and McCain are essentially tied with likely MN voters under 35.

  32. TChris has authored yet another pathetic Troopergate post.

    Somebody debunked the story he is pimping, and I couldn’t help commenting:

    “Don’t spoil a good smear with facts. You’ll harsh the mellow of the kool-aid buzz.”

    I wonder how long my comment will last.

  33. I think they have all but abandoned the 50 state strategy and are concentrating only on the big ones. He can probably kiss Florida goodbye but I am concerned about squeakers in PA, MI, OH, NJ, and quite possibly CA.

    The polls are informative regarding daily trending but the main event in November is all that really counts.

  34. PJ – If CA is a squeaker, Obama has lost.

  35. I’m with you! PUMA must keep agitating to wrest our party back from the elitist idiots. We’ve only just begun the fight. If we quit now, there will be no more Dem party-just a slightly more liberal branch of the Repub party.

  36. Is CA a squeaker? It’s been looking pretty blue to me. I’m a Golden Stater and had decided to ‘vote my conscience’ on that assumption, but I may go for ‘le vote utile’ if it’s at all close.

    (‘Le vote utile’ is the expression of the French left for not voting smaller parties in the first round of the presidential elections in order to prevent a repeat of the 2002 upset wherein far-right nationalist Jean Marie LePen made it to the second round against Jacques Chirac.)

  37. Charles – I’m crying. I just don’t understand how this happened. This guy is beyond unelectable. He is the ne plus ultra of unelectable.

    They found a Democrat who’s just as corrupt as BushCo, and they put him up against a Republican who hates BushCo.

    Please, someone, wake me up from this nightmare.

  38. I threw CA in because it is one of the big states he needs to win and more than likely will. But someone earlier had commented that McCain is making some headway lately out there.

  39. Charles: I have always maintained that Obama himself was not so much a “crook” but that he enabled his “friends” to get rich quick from government monies. His pay off was in political support while his campaign coffers accepted the dirty money via a backdoor scheme. This is the Chicago way.

    Yet the MSM refused to fully drill down and forced him to defend these associations. It is criminal to say the least.

  40. The Democratic party is so dense I’m afraid they will run him again.

    They didn’t learn with Gore. They didn’t learn with Kerry. They’ve now put up Obama. Same thing. Not one of them could being in the middle class.

    Every day for weeks I sent Howard Dean an email – What’s The Matter With Kansas? What’s the matter with the Democratic party – it’s lost it’s mind.

    He didn’t listen.

  41. Madamab… I have long suspected that the same sort who brought us Bush were attracted to Obama. Their demeanor and inability to articulate a cogent argument are clear indicators of their roots from previous campaigns.

    ultimately though, I believe the REAL reason that they CANNOT connect to us is their imperative and need to DENY the caucus fraud. Even beyond Barry’s record, with Bot after Bot… THIS is what they cannot talk about or defend.

    and it is why, there will be no middle ground between the OLD DEMOCRATIC PARTY and the NEW OBAMA PARTY. We would have to enter a state of suspended belief to help them out.

  42. Charles, I hope the American people get this message, because the media is not going to do it.

    I do NOT TRUST Barack Obama. I have serious doubts that he cares about this country at all. The people behind his rise to power have a vision of America that is fecking dangerous – and if the voters knew that, they would be scared shitless to put this guy anywhere near the levers of power. .

  43. For those thta didn’t see this on an earlier blog:

    I am so delighted with this woman.

    Hillary or McCain 2009

  44. Isn’t Monday a big day for new polling numbers?

    Think I will go to bed early tonight so I can get up with the roster and then hopefully I can do a little crowing of my own.

    Fingers crossed.

  45. Hey–I’m in good company. One “wit” at the DNC PartyBuilder blog used to call me a “Rush Limbaugh Operation Chaos operative”, along with alot of other truly horrible things…simply because I DID MY HOMEWORK and wouldn’t vote for BO. Hey, the polls are saying it much louder now than I ever could.

  46. Jmac –

    The Democratic party is so dense I’m afraid they will run him again.

    They didn’t learn with Gore. They didn’t learn with Kerry. They’ve now put up Obama. Same thing. Not one of them could being in the middle class.

    There was no PUMA then. There was no horrific presidential primary which ripped the mask of the Democratic elitists then. And, there was no Palin then.

    Obama 2008: Never Again.

    ROOOOOOAARRRRRRR!!!!

  47. Heidi Li Alert:

    Please comment on the following and let others know the should too:
    http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=weeklyreport-000002950064

  48. Hello all! Long time lurker but this is my first post. I just wanted to say I’m very intrigued by Gov Palin- I particularly love how she, and Hillary before her, has exposed the hypocrisy and bias of most of the media and some of the democrats. It’s been eye opening. I would bet my bottom dollar Sean Hannity’s interview with Sarah will be a 1000 times more interesting and revealing than Charlie Gibson’s. Just like O’reilly’s sit down with HRC was better than most of the interviews she had done with other supposedly legitimate journalists.

  49. Back Channels: Don’t Cry Racism if Obama Loses. He Couldn’t Have Gotten This Far Without White Support.

    Excerpt: Hey, Barack Obama could not have clinched the nomination without votes from white Americans. The other party isn’t supposed to just concede the election based on skin color. Voters shouldn’t have to choose based on race when they disagree on issues or believe a candidate isn’t up to the job.
    entire story http://countusout.wordpress.com/

  50. REPOST:

    Heidi Li Alert:

    Please comment on the following and let others know the should too:

    Clinton Supporters Never Say Die

  51. I’ll be sooooooooooooo happy when this lying ass pig gets sent back to Chicago.

  52. I no longer have a dog in this hunt, so my blood pressure is winding its way back down to normal. But you’re right, the dems are doing everything in their power to lose women, lose traditional working-class dem voters, lose independents. They tried their hardest to be republicans, but oddly, republicans prefer voting for actual republicans.

    Two types of posters have appeared lately. The first is unconcerned about the polls and believes, with all the fervor of the newly-converted, that the awesome ground game and twenty gazillion new, young voters will ride in to save the day.

    The second type is drowning in their beer and saying all is lost. Those are the ones who save their bile for the bitchez, and for Hillary in particular.

    I think that it could go either way right now. Gaffes could be made on either side, outside forces could still shape voters’ perceptions (watch the stock market tomorrow), and the Bush administration may yet have a card up their sleeve. But in either case, the fallout will be severe, and about bloody time.

  53. Bill O’Reilley is showing the full interview on Obama. Fox – he let him off too easily on everything.

  54. Fredc-yes you are right – obama needs to lose PA. RD, how can we achieve this?

  55. Obama represents the worst of both political worlds.

    The pointy-headed intellectualism of the McGovernite left combined with the unprincipled campaign tactics of the Rove-Bush-Gingrich right.

  56. I am with you!!

  57. Charles, you’re right. I agree with you on Gore. And he won.

    Obama seems to be trapped. He’s stuck and fighting back by going negative. It just doesn’t seem like a winning strategy.

    I hope he keeps it up.

  58. Myiq – EXACTLY.

    Whatever you might say about McGovern, he was and is a good man. But Obama is not. That Ayers video made me absolutely ill.

  59. Robert Greenwald keeps sending me emails.

    The state of John McCain’s health is an issue of grave concern for all Americans, regardless of political persuasion. Given the fact that he has been treated for an invasive melanoma and other maladies, it is important that he release his full health records.
    For a very brief three hours in May, McCain released 1,173 pages of his medical records to a carefully selected group of reporters. They were not allowed to make any copies or phone calls. Why such secrecy?
    We have enlisted a group of doctors from around the country to lead the effort to make sure the public is able to see and make judgments for themselves. Secrecy is not of service to our democracy, transparency is.

    Yeah, Robert, as soon as Obama releases 1200 pages of HIS medical history, I’ll get right on it.

  60. Time for dinner – later, all!

  61. madamab, I have a feeling that they won’t be to keen to release BO’s records because he is probably still smoking, or at the very least would be surely at a high risk of lung cancer because of his long history of smoking.

  62. BO’s medical records were released a while back.

  63. When I disagree with a leftist, I get called a “racist” or a “fascist.” When I disagree with a conservative, I get a well-reasoned and usually respectful response, though I may still disagree. In the first case, it’s like speaking to a child. In the second, it’s like speaking to my father.

  64. Madamab – I’m in –

    I’ve decided joining a team that insults, trashed me because I’m a woman and cursed me fairly regularly just doesn’t quite make it.

  65. madamab,

    I read this marvelous post over on your site and wondered if you were going to cross post it here. I came back here and, yes you did. So I read it again. It’s excellent.

  66. So were JMac’s. That’s why the request from BO makes no sense. It’s a witch hunt.

  67. Carol,

    Are Obama’s health records available on-line, or did they just go to press people?

  68. Someone wrote this on a thread in MyDD:

    I didn’t hear one peep from Hillary Clinton during the unbelievably r*acist Wright saga… except for her attempts to make the situation worse. Make no mistake – the whole brouhaha about Wright was r*acist to the core, and this is made all the more apparent by the current lack of brouhaha about the even worse things said in Sarah Palin’s church by her white pastor while she was present in the pews.”

  69. I may be showing my age, but I was there for the 1972 election and this one reminds me of those times. A candidate that was out of touch with the mainstream, a screwed up VP choice, new young voters were signing up in record numbers and were going to over whelm the old politics. Anybody remember how that turned out?

  70. yeah I want BO to out McGovern McGovern!

  71. James Nelson, my husband keeps making the same comparison. I hope he, and you, are right.

  72. So Lehmans, too?

    Bear Stearns. IndyMac. Freddie&Fannie. Now Lehmans.

    Who misses the wonk?

  73. I won’t be satisfied with just a loss…. I want him sent packing with his tail between his legs with such a huge and horrendous loss that we will never ever have to deal with him on a national basis again.

  74. Charles, do you know if Obama still thinks Virginia is attainable? I’m just curious since I plan on voting McCain if needed, but would prefer to vote McKinney.

  75. I want his loss of this election studied by poli-sci students for the next 100 years as an example of how NOT to run for any political office.

  76. What you said, indigogrrl!

  77. I want the name Barack to be synonymous with humiliating loss..

    such as “he really baracked” or “they pulled that barack outa their ass”

  78. I don’t know where his records are, I just remember that they were released a while back, earlier in the year.

  79. Clintons and the party — if an Obama loss doesn’t cause a massive sweep of the DNC leadership (as it should), then there’s lots of reason to have faith that Hillary will be able to get the party back in 2012 if she runs.

    Obama’s loss will bring out all the people who publicly supported but ‘never really backed him’ — as soon as someone’s labeled a loser, suddenly no one supported them. If you polled people now about how they voted in 2000/2004, Bush would turn out to have only gotten about 40% of the vote, I’m sure.

    Second, while Obama still retains a frightening number of slavish adorers, their numbers are dropping — remember, things like his flip on FISA happened after he was the nominee, and the people (not true obots) who supported him believing he’s filibuster were already psychologically invested, and unable to take back their votes.

    Third, his biggest advantage in pledged delegates came from gaming the caucuses and caucus fraud — neither of which any of us were prepared for. A 2012 Clinton campaign would put more (and more well-planned) resources into caucus states, and now there are thousands of us who can volunteer to poll-watch, file complaints etc. Also, The Audacity of Democracy in full will available for circulation. All that’s true even if the Democratic Party does nothing to get rid of caucuses.

    Fourth — no FL/MI fiasco. Does anyone really doubt that Clinton would have been ahead from those primaries on if the RBC hadn’t eliminated their pledged delegates from the counts?

    Fifth — Clinton’s image is much higher now than it was at the beginning of the campaigns and even the first months of the primary. If she, as I know she would, starts a new campaign as she conducted her campaign from March on, there’s no way Obama’d win.

    That’s if he even runs — I suspect if he loses, he’ll find a lot of people not returning his phone calls as he tries to stack up the cash for another bid.

    I have no doubt but that the current DNC leadership, even if it’s still in place, will try for another coup, but their true goals are on display now, and we’ve figured out their tricks; the voters will still win, just not as soon as we hoped.

  80. Darn – can someone get me out of moderation? No idea what it caught on…

  81. Hey indigogrrl!

    We’re on the case!

  82. carol – I believe I read he only released a one page report on his medical history

  83. They’re still at it over at DU. A perfect illustration of this article:

    http://journals.democraticunderground.com/NanceGreggs/446

    John McCain was a POW; Sarah Palin was a hockey mom – duh! What more do you need?

    I am a complete IDIOT – and I approve this message.

  84. hey Mike J. –

    does that mean I can concentrate on work, get a little house and yard work done and QUIT obsessively worrying about this stupid election????

    whew- my family will be so relieved!

  85. do they count paying for yard signs as donations? looks like we’re not the only ones seeing Obama as downticket poison…fromKos

    It’s an unfortunate decision, (7+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:ybruti, ChemBob, Cat Nerd, kyril, dansmith17, Susan from 29, Onomastic
    I think, that they are charging for signs and even buttons in our state. Consequently, you see few signs, stickers, or buttons. Our state will be blue, but down-ticket candidates–including the governor–are counting on an Obama surge, not just a modest win, and need the momentum of enthusiasm that brings large voter turnout. The campaign should flood the state with signs and bumper stickers. People are begging for them but not quite willing to cough up $2.50 or more for things that candidates usually give out for free.

    It sends a “so what” type of message to people who want to show their support and have already given plenty.

    this is from a new conversion diary on the top of the rec list. a converted PUMA LOL…. they took our advice and went back to their old ways

  86. Carol, as I recall, the only medical info Obama released was a 2-page letter from his doctor saying he was in good health. Not quite the same as all the infor that McCain released.

  87. James Nelson, on September 14th, 2008 at 8:23 pm Said:

    I may be showing my age, but I was there for the 1972 election and this one reminds me of those times. A candidate that was out of touch with the mainstream, a screwed up VP choice, new young voters were signing up in record numbers and were going to over whelm the old politics. Anybody remember how that turned out?
    *************
    I may be showing my age but I remember when the elitist ran against the General in 1952 and in 1956…..the big difference is that, that elitist was a good person…the current elitist is a sociopath.

  88. madamab:

    I said nothing about McGovern (a bona-fide war hero)

    I was referring to the stereotypical “intellectual” progressive who blathers about philosophy and political theories in academic settings but can’t understand why voters in the real world vote for the other party.

  89. Madamab: I agree with your post.
    James Nelson and SHV: I agree with your remarks about the parallels between now and 1972.

  90. SHV:

    30-40 years from now, the Obama Youth will still be fucking up elections, just like the McGovernites are now.

  91. If I may, I would like to recommend that people take a look at this post at Heidi Li’s Potpourri (coincidentally mentioning McGovern)-http://tdg.typepad.com/heidi_lis_potpourri/2008/09/from-cq-politics-clinton-supporters-never-say-die.html

    The post references an article from CQ Politics – http://www.cqpolitics.com/wmspage.cfm?docID=weeklyreport-000002950064

  92. I AM WITH YOU 1,000%!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    On November 5th, I’m going to open a Hillary 2012 savings account so I am ready to max out as soon as she announces! I will also support her in the Senate, where I am so fortunate to have her as my state Senator.

    Other activities will revolve around PUMA-focused goals.

    This was her year, but they interfered and deliberately engineered their desired result. She warned them repeatedly, that this would happen. They did not listen. Now they will pay. To clean out a diseased system, there must be a detox phase. Eliminate the toxins, and there names are Pelosi, Brazile, Dean, et. al.

  93. THEIR!!! (not there)

  94. obama’s complete medical record shave never been released

  95. obama’s complete college records have never been released either (columbia?)

  96. Does anyone have a recommendation for a book that talks about the psychology of the Obots, wing-nuts, cultural revolutionists, etc. “Hitler’s Willing Executioners” comes to mind but it was too Germano-centric…I think the “drinking the kool-aid” effect on higher brain function and reasoning is universal and independent of politics or cause.

  97. Charles,

    The group already released a pretty good ad about Obama’s relationship with Ayers.

    http://www.americanissuesproject.org/

  98. SOD: Where did you get that quote re: the 527’s from Freedom Watch?

  99. I want the name Barack to be synonymous with humiliating loss..

    such as “he really baracked” or “they pulled that barack outa their ass”

    lol!! I second that.

  100. I keep reading obamabots saying that this hardball portion of a campaign is evidence that americans are stupid and will fall for the “tricks” that repubs are always accused of.

    I’ve never seen it that way. By this point, candidates have had plenty of time to talk about the issues and promise all of us everything under the sun. Now as things get heated up and they are being “attacked” it is their opportunity to show that they have the political skills to actually get things done. The fight only begins when one gets elected and if someone can’t get through eight weeks of tough politics they aren’t going to fare well in the 4 year battle. Right now, Obama is looking like he doesn’t have what it takes.

    I hate to call Bill Clinton wise but he REALLY nailed it on the head with his politician X vs politician Y analogy.

  101. Carol? Did you see grayslady’s post (above) on obabama’s medical records?

  102. This is completely off-topic, but did anyone know that there is a high containment biodefense laboratory in Galveston, TX that contains all kinds of disease organisms? The article says there is one in downtown Boston too. Yikes!

    http://scienceblogs.com/effectmeasure/2008/09/why_would_any_sane_person_put.php

  103. I just saw a disgusting view of Roland Martin and Donna dancing dirty at the CNN Grill in Denver.

    Puke!

  104. bb – they killed all of the organisms. I heard it 2 days ago. Nothing is wrong.

  105. I RECOMMEND THAT Palin should remind people who ask if she’s ready to be Prez that the hypothetical situation they’re asking about is one wherein the Prez (McCain) was incapacitated or died, and then when they concur about this much, which is obvious, go on to say that in a situation of national tragedy of that sort, the VP, together with the cabinet members and advisors set up by the Prez, ensure that the policies in place are continued and that all Americans are galvanized to ensure that things proceed smoothly and that the world is reassured of the stability of the US. I’ve never heard her or anyone else say this as they continually ask if she’d be ready to be Prez. She should go on to say that by raising a spector of a fearful situation that could arise if the Prez is incapacitated or died, these questioners are showing a very poor understanding of the way our Democracy works!

    In this connection MCain would be wise to announce main members of his cabinet and Palin can refer to them in reminding people of the built-in continuity and security that is FUNDAMENTAL TO THE US.

  106. SHV,

    I’m reading a book right now about cult indoctrination and sudden personality change. It is called “Snapping,” by Conway & Siegelman. I read it years ago, but it came out in an updated edition.

  107. Carol
    I’m SOooooooooooo glad I missed that site.

  108. Obama’s Illinois State Senate records have never been released.

  109. Carol,

    I didn’t say anything was wrong. I was just surprised that the lab would be put in a place that vulnerable to hurricanes. Do you have a link on a story about them killing the disease organisms? I’ve been looking and can’t find anything but blog posts.

  110. I’m gonna head out friends. I have a paper due in a few days (if school reopens ontime) and I haven’t even started. Gotta get to it.

    An early good night!

  111. Good luck on the paper, Regency. With your writing skills, it should come out great!

  112. I don’t know about what portion of the records they released for BO, I just remember they said he was in perfect health.

  113. BO says he didn’t keep his State Senate records.

  114. fif, on September 14th, 2008 at 8:50 pm Said:

    On November 5th, I’m going to open a Hillary 2012 savings account so I am ready to max out as soon as she announces!
    ________________

    Interesting concept. I might have to do the same.

  115. Carol, on September 14th, 2008 at 9:04 pm Said:
    I don’t know about what portion of the records they released for BO, I just remember they said he was in perfect health.

    ———————————————————–

    except for his mental health.

  116. Thanks, BB.

  117. I didn’t see it, but from what I understand from someone who did, Carly Fiorina gave Claire McCaskill quite the smackdown on This Week with GS this morning.

    They also said that Obama is sending in a “team” of women to Ohio & PA to try and get back the women’s vote.

  118. Gary – that should answer at least part of your earlier question as to how Obama claims to have raised so much money and got so many new donors. He has ALWAYS charged for signs and other campaign items – and when you make such a purchase, you have to sign a donor card.

    I have always believed that he was taking in the really big bucks from a few under-the-table sources and using the above ploy to disguise and divert attention.

  119. fif, on September 14th, 2008 at 8:50 pm Said:

    On November 5th, I’m going to open a Hillary 2012 savings account so I am ready to max out as soon as she announces!

    I could so do that! Ooh. That would be no trouble. Awesome idea!

  120. lisadawn82: we can promote the savings account concept as a PUMA action item. The only thing we have to ensure is that Patti Soyles Doyle (sp?) is not running her campaign next time around.

    Or Mark Penn, speaking of framing issues. I thought today, Hillary needed McCain’s communications team. They had the perfect candidate and they did not know how to present her to the American people. What a waste.

  121. I just heard about the lab in Galveston and that the organisms were killed.

    I don’t think Galveston should be rebuilt, if it can’t withstand a Category 2, it would never withstand anything greater. It is a huge waste of money.

    At some point, it is time to stop rebuilding in areas that these kinds of catastrophes are going to happen. I actually lived in Brownsville a few years after the Hurricane wiped out the beaches there. There was literally nothing left – you could drive your car right up onto the beach afterwards.

  122. Charles – BoA is buying Merrill Lynch.

  123. For your consideration:

    How to Identify a Cult, from the Christian Courier (http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/250-how-to-identify-a-cult)

    (1) Cult members are “focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment.”

    (2) “Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged,” and there can be pressure or social punishment when there is disagreement with the “boss.”

    (3) The leader “is preoccupied with [raising] money.”

    (4) The cult leader generates within his members “a polarized” mentality.

  124. Obama’s Illinois State Senate records have never been released.

    He says they “didn’t keep any.” In all those years? Again, either incompetent (as with Rezko condemned buildings in his district) or lying.

    Which is it Barry?

  125. Hi all – got here late and reading the upthread posts. Watching “All I Wanna Do” to make me feel better. It’s about a girls school. The girls are fighting back because they were disenfranchised. Sometimes you need a little fantasy….

    madamab, of course you know I am, we are with you for the long haul. We’re in this fight and we’re going to win.

  126. Excellent video debunking Obama’s qualifications for the Presidency..

    http://pumasunleashed.wordpress.com/

  127. Still4Hill: it is going to be a long haul, and we are lucky to know none of us are alone in fighting the good fight.

  128. Two types of posters have appeared lately. The first is unconcerned about the polls and believes, with all the fervor of the newly-converted, that the awesome ground game and twenty gazillion new, young voters will ride in to save the day.

    We keep hearing about the O Campaign’s GOTV operation. How much of an impact will that have, and does the newly energized conservative base compare?

  129. fif — Hillary 2012 savings accounts — you’re clever!

    I’d thought of starting a recurring payment as soon as she announced, but now I feel stupid when I realize there’s no reason to wait.

  130. “fif”
    For 2012 Hillary should start with the group she finished with; they were ALL GREAT!!
    With the addition of James Carvell!!!!!

  131. What a shame Hillary’s friend she fired won’t have a job after November 4, 2008. Sorry, I have already started forgetting people that will be irrelevent after that date.

  132. Charles @ 7:34 pm: Thank you for posting that video!

    It is indeed unbelievable that Obama is a nominee for POTUS.

  133. Looks like they are going to allow Lehman to fail.

  134. tpt/ny and fif, I agree.

    One of the things I like about Hillary is that she learns from her mistakes (and yes, she makes them, she’s human) and builds on her successes.

    One of the things that alarms me about Obama is that he makes the same mistakes over and over again (e.g., his talent for alienating one voting bloc after another) and the successes he repeats (stealing elections) can’t properly be understood as building anything.

    We’ve just had eight years of a man who couldn’t learn from his mistakes, and built nothing.

    I’ll be curious to see: as a nation of voters, have we learned anything from our own mistakes?

  135. Have we all heard Lindsay Lohan voice her opinion on Sarah Palin? Because she’s offered it up.

    Dude, did this many people have something to say about Hillary?

  136. Someone needs to be scrubbing the voter lists at each precinct. They will try to cheat, especially with the early voting starting. I’m sure people are going to be surprised that they “already” voted.

  137. Reg, I haven’t. Do tell.

  138. Please, KO and BO and I want to know what Lindsay has to say.

  139. History Channel has new footage of 9/11 that I have never seen.

  140. Why do I do it? Why? Why do I go to other boards and try to have an intelligent discourse on this election? God, the OMoonies scare the crap out of me.

  141. Just got here after a weekend with my family, who I love beyond anything, but who ALL will be supporting Obama (were Hillary supporters, now buying into the MSM / DNC / Obie rhetoric). They cannot understand why I won’t support Obama. They think the MSM is being unfair to him and giving McCain/Palin a free ride. We can’t even talk politics any more! They think I’m completely unhinged, stupid, irresponsible, crazy, narrow minded…..

    Thank all the powers that be that I can come here and breathe again.

    Who’s with you, you ask? Oh, so many of us.

    Thanks, everyone. I feel sane again.

  142. Lohan and Anderson Slap Down Palin

    Seriously, Lindsay’s offering her best political wisdom?

  143. Welcome “home,” mystic!

  144. The following is Isaac Bonewits
    CULT DANGER EVALUATION FRAME it was written for the purpose of identifying religious or spiritual groups functioning as cults…. but there are some interesting parallels
    To use the scale each item is rated on a scale of one ot ten … about this tool for parents Isaac says this

    As a general rule, the higher the numerical total scored by a given group (the further to the right of the scale), the more dangerous it is likely to be. Though it is obvious that many of the scales in the frame are subjective, it is still possible to make practical judgments using it, at least of the “is this group more dangerous than that one?” sort. This is if all numerical assignments are based on accurate and unbiased observation of actual behavior by the groups and their top levels of leadership (as distinct from official pronouncements). This means that you need to pay attention to what the secondary and tertiary leaders are saying and doing, as much (or more so) than the central leadership — after all, “plausible deniability” is not a recent historical invention.

    1 Internal Control: Amount of internal political and social power exercised by leader(s) over members;
    lack of clearly defined organizational rights for members.

    2 External Control: Amount of external political and social influence desired or obtained; emphasis on
    directing members’ external political and social behavior.

    3 Wisdom/Knowledge Claimed by leader(s); amount of infallibility declared or implied about decisions or
    doctrinal/scriptural interpretations; number and degree of unverified and/or unverifiable credentials claimed.

    4 Wisdom/Knowledge Credited to leader(s) by members; amount of trust in decisions or doctrinal/scriptural interpretations made by leader(s); amount of hostility by members towards internal or external critics and/or towards verification efforts.

    5 Dogma: Rigidity of reality concepts taught; amount of doctrinal inflexibility or “fundamentalism;” hostility towards relativism and situationalism.

    6 Recruiting: Emphasis put on attracting new members; amount of proselytizing; requirement for all
    members to bring in new ones.

    7 Front Groups: Number of subsidiary groups using different names from that of main group, especially
    when connections are hidden.

    8 Wealth: Amount of money and/or property desired or obtained by group; emphasis on members’ donations; economic lifestyle of leader(s) compared to ordinary members.

    9 Sexual Manipulation of members by leader(s) of non-tantric groups; amount of control exercised over
    sexuality of members in terms of sexual orientation, behavior, and/or choice of partners.

    10 Sexual Favoritism: Advancement or preferential treatment dependent upon sexual activity with the
    leader(s) of non-tantric groups.

    11 Censorship: Amount of control over members’ access to outside opinions on group, its doctrines or
    leader(s).

    12 Isolation: Amount of effort to keep members from communicating with non-members, including family, friends and lovers.

    13 Dropout Control: Intensity of efforts directed at preventing or returning dropouts.

    14 Violence: Amount of approval when used by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s).

    15 Paranoia: Amount of fear concerning real or imagined enemies; exaggeration of perceived power of opponents; prevalence of conspiracy theories.

    16 Grimness: Amount of disapproval concerning jokes about the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

    17 Surrender of Will: Amount of emphasis on members not having to be responsible for personal decisions; degree of individual disempowerment created by the group, its doctrines or its leader(s).

    18 Hypocrisy: amount of approval for actions which the group officially considers immoral or unethical,
    when done by or for the group, its doctrines or leader(s); willingness to violate the group’s declared
    principles for political, psychological, social, economic, military, or other gain.

  145. Forget I asked. Back to the paper.

  146. Regency,

    I thought you were working on your paper? Oh, well. I’m supposed to be writing my dissertation….

  147. I know I haven’t said nice things about Senator Obama, but if Lindsay Lohan doesn’t like Sarah Palin and is supporting him, I’ll have to change my position. I do everything Lindsay does. She’s my mentor.

  148. Amazingly, people being filmed are not saying a word, they are stunned.

  149. mystic: let me guess. They don’t really know anything about Obama’s records, background, or unethical tactics, right?

    & did you actually say they think the MSM is giving Palin a free ride????

    I think maybe I should invest in Kool Aid, because it seems to be stronger than peyote.

  150. ugsome – Thanks for the cult characteristics. That’s a post to print and keep in one’s pocket.

  151. I’m ROTFLMAO over Lindsay and Pamela.

    You know, the more airheaded celebrities that come out against Palin, the more serious she looks. It’s uncanny.

    Where is poor Anna Nicole Smith when we need her?

  152. ATTENTION STARLETS: OBAMA ON AISLE SIX OBAMA ON AISLE SIX. DROP TO YOUR KNEES.

    Sorry about that. Sorry about all the caps too.

    Sometimes you just have to let it out.

  153. Charles, can we trust McCain on the economy? Or are we screwed?

  154. Am I the only one who does not get offended at being called a Republican? I mean, so what? (I’m actually an Independent, so I get just as ticked off if anyone ever says I’m a Democrat.) Why is being a Republican such a sin in the eyes of Obama supporters? I thought we were supposed to be post-partisan? Why do use “Republican” as a curse word?

  155. Charles,

    seeing Lehman go down really get to me. My best friend from B-School is there. He called me a couple of days ago from a bar. He just realized most of what he had has just vanished because he had lots of Lehman stock.

    I have 2 good friends at Merrill and they have not had a good night sleep for more than a month.

    In the case of Lehman, they got somewhat screwed by Dick Fuld who refused to recognize the dismal situation they were in. He had a couple opportunities to sell a stake of the bank many times but he wouldn’t do it. I remember him very well because I dared to ask him a question when he came to speak to us and he just trashed me.

  156. According to their website, the University of Texas biomedical lab in Galveston did not kill any disease organisms. Labs were decontaminated before the storm and all agents were stored in containers. There was some flooding in the building, which is still not completely finished.

    http://www.utmb.edu/

    The Keiller Building did experience some flooding in the basement but the rest of the facility is fine. There has been no loss of biocontainment or biosecurity. All labs were decontaminated and secured prior to the arrival of the storm. All agents have been stored in proper containers. The Shope Lab within the Keiller Building also remains secure.

    I’m not sure where the one in Boston is–maybe MIT?

  157. DS – right back at you, idiot!

  158. DS – thanks for sharing. Now go away.

  159. “Joanelle, on September 14th, 2008 at 8:21 pm Said:

    Madamab – I’m in –

    I’ve decided joining a team that insults, trashed me because I’m a woman and cursed me fairly regularly just doesn’t quite make it.”

    Why do they find it necessary to curse and be abusive? Yesterday, a group of young black girls (15/16), came over to our Republican Party booth scaring a little old lady (75 or so) half to death screaming and chanting “F@@ JM, and other stuff” Security was there ASAP, but I would kick my daughter’s butt if she did that to Obama’s booth. This woman said I’m supposed to respect that man when his supporters are so vulgar?

    I’ve personally noticed that Hillary supporters I’ve run across discuss issues, Obama supporters are immediately in your face and extremely defensive. How does he expect to win if people don’t like the people who support him.

    I don’t agree with the Ron Paul people, anti-gay, very pro-life, but when you met them, they discussed issues, they were polite, were trained well to be polite and respectful , and they were very successful here.

    If BO actually trained his supporters on courtesy and respectful disagreement, he might win over more people, or at least not give his opponents with such great examples of why not to vote for him.

  160. Ahh, celebrities. Very few celebrities came out and publicly “endorsed” her. I work in the entertainment industry (not in Hollywood, though) and the support in it is overwhelmingly for Obama. I’ve sometimes had to be careful about voicing my opinion too much. I have a friend who is a conservative Republican and she never talks about politics – she usually leaves the room because if she spoke up too much people would look down on her. (She goes her own way with conservative Republicans when it comes to gay rights – she’s all for them, including gay marriage – but in all other ways she was not going to vote for McCain until he picked Palin.)

    Obama’s celebrity supporters were very vocal. But what celebrities came out for Hillary? Just out of curiosity. I know Jack Nicholson made that ad for her. There’s also Rob Reiner. Laura Linney. Sophie B. Hawkins. Tina Fey. Elton John. Who else?

  161. DS: with all due respect, you have obviously not done your research.

    It has all been thoroughly covered on numerous blogs: the caucus fraud, the deliberate manipulation of FL & MI delegates, the blocking of revotes, the RBC debacle that violated the very foundation of the Democratic Party, the buying of superdelegates, and the bullying and intimidation of a traditional roll call vote at the Convention. Do some studying before you come into our home and start preaching to us. We are light years ahead of you on this one.

    NO DEAL! I will not vote for a Chicago thug who steals elections to win or support a party who knowingly enabled him. Country before Party.

  162. Eva Longoria

  163. Ellen Degeneris?

  164. Like the blog!

  165. America Ferrera

  166. mystic, my husband and I have been having the same discussions. He reads nothing, not even the newspaper (well, except for the sports section) and only catches a bit of fox or msnbc. Yet, he tells me that Obama’s positions are nearly exactly the same as Hillary’s, and that I must (MUST!) vote for Obama, or surely give up Roe. McCain would be horrible beyond imagining. Palin is a joke, he says.

    Oh puhleez, says I. I’m over being an apologist for the democratic party. I’m over hoping for scraps in return for my lifelong loyalty. I’m not going to pretend that a woman who has achieved what Sarah Palin has achieved is a JOKE. If experience was so f***ing important, why didn’t the dems nominate Richardson, or Dodd, or Vilsack, or, or, or…?

    We’ve agreed not to discuss politics further. That’s a mercy, anyway. I still love the guy, after all…

  167. Here is an interesting 527 as..It’s in German with sub-titles:

    The Lying King

  168. Mary Steenburgen & Ted Danson

  169. DYB: of course, Ted Danson & Mary Steenburgen, America Ferrar, Sean Astin, Melanie Griffith.

  170. That 527 is going viral..it’s already up at “Uppity” and RBO.

  171. MyIQ — Hillary and I were both McGovernites 35 years ago. I know (looking back) that he wasn’t the best candidate. But, he didn’t steal the nomination.

  172. I’m watching a repeat of “MTP” with Chuck Schumer of NY.
    He just proves “THEY DON’T GET IT”!!

  173. I like the blog so much I’d like to add it to my sites to see and will unless you object.

  174. DS sounds too sane and respectful to be an Obot.Almost.

    Now, why are we seeing this kind of respect after all these months? Is it because the balance is shifting?

  175. merciless: they all use the same talking points

    Obama’s positions are NOT exactly like Hillary’s, and the ones that are were ripped off from her (eg: green revolution, the economy). He diverges on FISA, health care, Social Security, women’s rights, gay rights, NAFTA, faith-based initiatives).

    There is absolutely no basis for the freak out over Roe. First, we will have a Dem majority in Congress (unless Obama continues to implode and takes them with him), and McCain has been quoted as stating that Roe is settled law. Besides, has he been passionate about Roe v. Wade before this talking point became a scare tactic to recruit Dem women?

  176. Somewhere I recently saw a tabulation of the records of Obama which have not been released. As I recall it included his college (Occidental?) transcript prior to being accepted at Princeton, his Princeton undergraduate records, and his Harvard Law School records. Tellingly, the U of Chicago had blocked access to the board minutes of the Ayers funded foundation whose board Obama chaired (mentioned in the video @ Charles’ site). The issue of access to foundation records was a hot topic @ NQ about 2 wks ago. Speculation about the prePrinceton records has revolved around possible “affirmative action” speculation. Obama seems plenty intelligent (the book learning type) so one would think it would be to his advantage to release those transcripts.

    Someone here may have more current information about these items. As far as I am concerned, those are of much greater concern that Obama’s health records. Just my 2 cents.

  177. Hey, this is funny, and perhaps telling!

    For months now, I have been replying to all my Democratic Party emails, telling them NoDeal. I always just hit reply, and they always went through.

    They are not going through anymore. I guess the DNC must have been getting too many negative replies, so fixed the system where you can’t reply anymore.

    LOL!

  178. tp/ny: what was Chuck saying?

  179. charles – what great stories — I cover the finance world for my job and sometimes I feel like a fish out of water — I was tossed into this job a year ago and what a roller coaster.

  180. salmonrising,

    Obama didn’t go to Princeton. But his Columbia records haven’t been released.

  181. Talk of replacing Biden with Hillary must be under discussion. I just got a follow-up survey from –William Arnone Phone: 212-773-3285 asking me if I would change my mind about voting for McCain if Biden was replaced with Hillary.

    I wonder if someone could find out who this character is. I of course said NO, a hundred times.

  182. tpt – Schumer is no friend of Hillary. They are almost never seen together – have you noticed? I believe he and my Senator Lautenberg were part of the foundation in the party to oust her from the nomination. It galled me to see the way he stood next to her in that roll call. I felt he was threatening her. It made me sick.

  183. I was just listening to Alan Greenspan on This Week. I had to turn it off, because I kept imagining the conversations between Greenspan and Andrea Mitchell at their dinner table.

  184. Bravo!
    Great article!

    Hillary Clinton for President 2012

  185. I hope this uptick for McCain keeps building and we’re witnessing the tidal wave and Obama gets his ass kicked all over the electoral map !!!

  186. wmcb – I’ve been doing that with their emails too. I suppose we’re clogging their inboxes.

    Now we’re spam!

  187. Felizarte,

    That guy is here:

    http://www.nasi.org/publications3901/publications_show.htm?slide_id=21&cat_id=77

    William J. Arnone
    Partner
    Human Capital Practice
    Personal Financial Counseling
    Ernst & Young, LLP
    (212) 773-3285 (office)
    (516) 457-0485 (cell)
    william.arnone@ey.com

    But how did he know you were voting for McCain?

  188. Why don’t you call him back on his cell?

  189. Now they are planning on sending out all the Dem women to various states to beat the drum for Obama. And just where were these paragons of virture when Hillary was getting beaten every day by the press and the Obama campaign?

    Like Claire and Kathleen are going to change my mind just because they ask me to? Give me a break!

  190. Felizarte: They might be talking about it, but I don’t see Hillary saying yes at this point. I don’t think she wants to board the Titanic.

  191. I really wish that Clinton would run as an Independent in 2012. I’m sure half the Dem party would love to follow her and join the Independent movement. I worry that the Dems will try to prop up another loser since they’d prefer to blame 08 on HRC instead of on BO where it belongs. The Dem party does not deserve the Clintons one bit

  192. Pat – Yeah – he’s sending the sisters out – but he took today off (again). He takes more time off than Bush!!! fergodssake. Send surrogates all over creation.

  193. Great post. Excellent points.

    Obama is an empty suit, a dangerous candidate once you take a hard look at him. I can’t blame his supporters for taking the path they did. When asked about Obama, attack Hillary and tell everybody how evil she is. When asked about Obama, attack Palin and tell everybody how evil she is.

    What else you gonna do? Brag about Obama’s former associates? His foreign policy experience? Discuss what happened to those people living in Chicago housing? Try to figure out where he stands on the issues this week?

    This is exactly the way Bush supporters got him elected. What else could they do but smear Al Gore for inventing the internet? You can’t talk about Bush and how he bankrupted a company. Again in 2004, swiftboat Kerry ,anything but face the reality of the man they were supporting.

  194. Carol,
    may i ask if are you watching the doc “The Falling Man”?

  195. salmonrising – what about Barry’s birth certificate?

    Our unknown candidate – very scary, indeed.

  196. bostonboomer:

    I view Alan Greenspan just like Krugman views him. He is really the guy who left the barn open and then starting giving exposes about how important it is to close the barn door, after the horse ran away.

    He wrote in FT German edition not too long ego but I couldn’t get beyond the 1st paragraph.

  197. Felizarte and Boomer, that Arnone guy was a Hillary supporter:

    http://usliberals.about.com/od/guestcolumnistopeds/a/WmArnoneOpEd.html

  198. freyja – But independents never whip up enough votes – perot, Anderson, Nader – all at one time or another had big followings, but they can’t beat the major parties. I don’t see that happening.
    Hill got 18,000,000 but those were Democratic primary voters plus add-ons where the rules allowed indies and repubs to cross.

  199. MABlue,

    But can you imagine Alan and Andrea chatting at the dinner table? Could anything be more pretentious and boring?

  200. “Carol, on September 14th, 2008 at 9:31 pm Said:

    Someone needs to be scrubbing the voter lists at each precinct. They will try to cheat, especially with the early voting starting. I’m sure people are going to be surprised that they “already” voted.”

    My elections dept. is not interested in the 20/30 “Dear Neighbor letters” I received back as no longer living here. They’re too busy – told me to turn them in after November 4th and they’ll look into it, and I only sent to Rs.

  201. I just read on Yahoo News that Tim Russert’s son is a reporter for MSNBC. Wtf. The guy just graduated from college and he gets an on-air job because his last name is Russert? His father was a terrible journalist and it’s unfair that anyone with the connections doesn’t even need to WORK for the position while everyone else has to start from local news for years or go to journalism school and never even have a chance. I just hope that the boy won’t be as biased and sexist as his late father.

  202. I find it interesting and at times quite amusing how everyone tries to psycho analyze the Hillary Clinton supporters and why they refuse to vote for Obama. I guess the answer we give them doesn’t suit them so they have to make sh*t up. Maybe if they used some of that self-proclaimed listening skills Obama insists he has they would get it but they aren’t listening.

    Mountain Sage

  203. bb: Greenspan has endorsed McCain. And we all know Andrea is an Obama sycophant. I wonder how that goes over at home?

    Then again, who cares.

  204. bb – Imagining them chatting at the dinner table is about as far as I am willing to take this mental image. I don’t want to go to any other rooms in their house, if you know what I mean.

  205. So how did William Ayers get to become a professor of English at the U. of Chicago? I’m a bit puzzled.

  206. MS – He never listened. Hillary was the one who listened and that was why she stomped all over him in all the debates. He talks like the grown-ups in the Peanut specials and doesn’t listen to anybody.

  207. Britannia, Bill Ayers is a professor of education at the University of Illinois, Chicago, a much more liberal institution than the University of Chicago, a private university.

  208. Britannia – he’s a professor of education not English – but I don’t know how. All the radicals of the 60’s managed to go legit somehow. Many are ensconced comfortably with tenure at universities.

  209. ” talks like the grown-ups in the Peanut specials ”

    WAH wah wah WAH WAH wah. Wah wah WAH wah WAH!

    :rofl:

  210. Charles,

    You touched on one of my a favorite books. I always recommend people complete the whole story by reading in addition to Liar’s Poker, Den of Thieves, When Genius Failed, Barbarians at The Gate.

    The most recent books I remember with good Wall Street intrigues is Blood on the Street from Charles Gasparino.

    Really fun read.

  211. *********************************
    URGENT ACTION ALERT
    *********************************

    Breaking News On Obama From Across The Pond

    Team Obama To Interfere in British Elections

    http://poligazette.com/2008/09/15/team-obama-to-interfere-in-british-elections/

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/politics/labour/2958590/Gordon-Brown-seeks-Barack-Obama-aides-to-help-beat-David-Cameron.html

    Folks, we need to get the word out on this ASAP to any reporter willing to investigate this!

  212. Bernardine Dohrn is at Northwestern University.

    Ayers and Dohrn are both poster children for white privilege. Especially little lord Ayers, son of Commonweath Edison’s CEO. I don’t see Peltier or Mumia occupying tenured chairs.

  213. Hey DYB,

    I do know that Ted Danson and Mary Steenbergen, Natalie Portman, Magic Johnson, and Ellen Degeneris all expressed their preference for Hillary. As did our two great divas Barbra and Cher. My own favorite celebrity endorsement (although when he came out for her I was an Edwards supporter and suffering from my own mild case of CDS) was Elvis Costello who sang, sadly not prophetically this time around, “Happy Birthday, Mrs. President” on Hillary’s 60th birthday party.

    For what celebrity endorsements are worth..

  214. IronMan, may I offer you a Valium? You always sound so breathless.

  215. I just finished the latest Woodward book on Bush: The War Within. A few interesting aspects: he never listened to the generals, he was only interested in the body count (not our guys but how many we killed), he had never considered an exit strategy because he believed they would welcome us with open arms and had no idea of the terrain, the sectarian factions, the political structure, etc., he felt he was and is right, he believes he takes his orders from a Higher Being, no one who opposed or questioned was welcome, everyone had to agree with him or they were asked to leave, he makes fun of people, is not interested in negative feedback, Cheney is not in charge.

    Sound familiar? He is without introspection and the mess he made in Iraq was well worth it form is stance. Oh, and Nancy Pelosi, she never made a big issue of stopping the war.

  216. Has everyone seen these ?? I want one of each LOL !!!

    http://www.cafepress.com/nakedemperor24

  217. frostback – I didn’t see the name of the special. But, some of the video was of the falling people – just briefly, it was more about the people that were watching in Times Square and the people actually videotaping.

  218. It is my pleasure. We are going to need our network after this election no matter the result.

    Good night, Conflucians.

  219. “Many are ensconced comfortably with tenure at universities.”

    And an early sign of Obot dementia (I thought) was that if I questioned Obama’s Ayers relationship the fact that Ayers was a tenured professor was supposed to make it all right.

    I can just see it. Obama will release a response ad saying that Ayers has tenure and voters everywhere will sigh with relief and say, “Well, that’s alright then”

    It’s so simple.

  220. Woodward is pretty biased. I take what he says with a grain of salt and a dose of 50% truth. Powell told Bush everything, he just chose not to listen.

  221. It was obvious to me from the beginning that the Biden selection was a debacle. Neither would it be a surprise if a certain campaign were commissioning polling about whether there’s anything to gain by switching Biden. Frankly, the time for that was not yesterday but several days before yesterday.

    Naturally, if the O Team does make such a craven and contemptible move, I hope the voters reward it with due contempt.

  222. Hey Charles, thanks for some of your inside scoop on Wall Street. Very interesting.

    And, with my very long legs, I totally understand about the business class thing.

    Alice

  223. ugsome, Dohrn is @ Northwestern??? WTF does she teach? Bomb-making?

  224. Felizarte, they might be running a phone bank from this fellow’s office.

  225. they just can’t help themselves:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/palin_troopergate

    this will backfire, too

  226. ugsome and Still4Hill: Thank you for the clarifications. I’ve never been fond of university professors, anyway. And I work in academia.

  227. Wow, we can already purchase Hillary 2012 gear! Thanks swanspirit.

  228. I’m with you! Remember when Kos et al were supposed to be “breaking down the gates”? Only to wind up sitting inside them with the big boys??

    We PUMAs cannot make that mistake… We must really do the job this time…

  229. “fif”
    If your still on Schumer was repeating the party line McSame. Palin has pecked. He brought up trooper-gate Blah…blah…blah…!
    He did say to bring up her family & stuff like that is out of line.
    It’s hard to watch my Senator back Obama.
    Now “Chuckie T” is comparing the flocking to Palin with a surge to Geraldine F. in 1984.
    “NewsWeek” headline “What Woman Want”!
    OMG- Brokow & Chuckie are BLAMING Obama’s possible loss in some states as people NOT VOTING FOR THE BLACK GUY!!! You can’t make this stuff up!!

  230. well i’m not voting for the black guy . . .so what?

  231. kb – I know. It’s scary, isn’t it? You really need to check out the faculty before you send your kid off.

  232. Thanks BB. I responded to an earlier questionaire addressed to Hillary supporters and I said I was definitely voting for McCain. I gave my reason as the treatment of Hillary. No way was I voting for Obama.

  233. Chuck Todd was the first to play the race card in the campaigns. He is the devil himself.

  234. That should be Chuck Toad.

  235. Still4Hill: Dohrn is @ Northwestern???

    What Still4Hill said.

    Gosh, this really makes me rethink my next career move. Somehow a tenure-track postion is not as appealing to me anymore.

  236. Charles — that’s some crazy shit !!!! Yeah, I can’t wait to dump the finance world – I am stuck for the time being – what can I say.

    Hopefully someday we can meet and hang out in the city – have a couple drinks and share a few stories. I will do most of the listening.

  237. Carol – about Chuck Todd – I think so too. The Devil.

  238. simofish: We would probably put you to sleep in an hour!

  239. Quincy Jones, Maya Angelou (Rise, Hillary, Rise) and Whoopie Goldberg all came out for Hillary.

  240. Britannia – I don’t want to discourage you. If you have a vocation, you should pursue it.
    All I was pointing out is that these folks had destruction of our system as their vocation when they first came to our attention. The Weather Underground bombed the army ROTC building at U. of Michigan Ann Arbor. So their association with universities today especially rankles.

    The bulk of tenured professors are fine folks. There are a few dangerous minds out there, however.

  241. “Still4Hill”
    I just read your entry & I must disagree. I went to @ least 2 events where he supported her:
    1- with him & Madeline Albright
    2-He introduced Hillary
    Both times he loved using this line where he said, compared to Obama she knew better how to fight off the republicans. When “they” bring out the “2×4” she come out with the “4×8”!
    How right he was!!!

  242. Charles, Your memories are fascinating to hear. I’d love to hear more about what goes on in that world.

    Also, I’m looking forward to the post you mentioned. And what might be happening in the coming months and years.

  243. tpt – Thanks for the correction – I feel better now. OK -Chuck is off my list.

    (Lautenberg is still on, but I’ll have to vote for him anyway to maintain the majority. Hillary can be majority leader only if the dems are the majority).

  244. Still4Hill: No, I did not mean it that way. Sorry if I sounded that way. I’ve had enough contact with professors in my field to know the different colors they come in. These revelations just had me thinking in a wider sense about my life plan. That there are other options for me.

  245. dcattorney, on September 14th, 2008 at 10:50 pm Said:
    Felizarte, they might be running a phone bank from this fellow’s office.

    I don’t know how they picked my address out of all the Hillary supporters (must be some of the small contributions I had sent from time to time)

  246. McGovern may have been a bad candidate, but comparing him to Obama is grossly unfair. By the time McGovern was nominated, he had served two full terms in the House, had been Director of the Food for Peace Program in the Kennedy administration, and had served a decade in the Senate. Although he never spoke about it during the campaign, he was a decorated war hero, having received the Distinguished Flying Cross and had commanded a B-24 bomber squadron in combat during the North African and Italian campaigns in WW II. He also didn’t engage in the kind of gutter politics so beloved of Obama and Axelrod. I’d vote for George McGovern any day of the week.

  247. Charles, if you are here, I’m being redirected from your site. Have you checked it within the last 30 minutes? I’ve tried a half dozen times and I’m redirected to a Google search page.

  248. BostonBoomer has a new thread!
    BostonBoomer has a new thread!
    BostonBoomer has a new thread!
    BostonBoomer has a new thread!
    BostonBoomer has a new thread!
    BostonBoomer has a new thread!

  249. SHV,

    I can think of two books that might adequately explain the Obot phenomenon. The first, of course, would be “The True Believer” by Eric Hoffer. The second, of course, would be “Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds”. Probably any work on the tactics and behavior of cults would be informative.

  250. Katiebird, thanks. I’m going everywhere else, but can’t get to his site. Must be my machine. Thanks.

  251. Helen mirren supported Hillary.a friend of mine works in the biz and was in a preproduction the table was talking about how great obama was and Helen remained silent. She was finally asked what she thought of Obama and simply replied, “I’m supporting the work horse.”

  252. This explains why I love Helen Mirren! A discerning woman and a great actress.

  253. Ah, yes, Helen Mirren is one of five women I’d go straight for!

  254. Britannia & Still4Hill:

    Bernardine Dohrn’s web page:
    http://www.law.northwestern.edu/faculty/profiles/BernardineDohrn/

  255. Hells yeah I’m “with you” !!!!

    I don’t argue with the Obamabots any longer… They dish out too much vitriol, too little substance. They remind me of little wind-up toys you set on the floor….. and watch them bump into the walls, over and over again. They’re almost “cute” in the beginning, but after awhile, you just want them to run out of steam and stop clacking!

  256. […] I find the following a somewhat humorous observation. It is taken from a Confluence post entitled How to Win the Presidential Argument: Democrats Don’t Get It: […]

  257. ugsome, thanks for the link.

    I’ve been wondering if people like Ayers and Dohrn kinda became like liberal “folk heroes” (for lack of a better term), so all was forgiven and forgotten. Kinda like Robin Hood. I don’t know, I’m just trying to rationalize things in my head. I’m sure there were hundreds of people applying for those cushy positions that they hold now.

  258. madamab – I am back after wandering in the desert for a week. I don’t even have one point to disagree with your post. Sadly critical thinking and wining an argument is not a requirement anymore – it is all about the tingling feeling up my legs and passing out at crowded events (I guess that has stopped now).

  259. I am with you all the way! I also want to say ,we need to make sure, as the first order of bussiness the terminating of the DNC leadership and the reforming the Democratic party. If you accomplish this goal, then electing Hillary in 2012 will become a reality. State polls all across the nation are starting to look good. The New York poll is a shocker! Obama only leads by 5 points. I don’t think McCain will win NY, but he is going to have to spend some of his $$$$. Don’t let that 66 million bother you as he was expecting much more. This was not primary money and was to go towards the GE and include the Hillary supporters. He will need every dime, but he will still lose. I have posted this many times, Obama will lose all of the south and border states, all the normal red states and the loss of either Ohio, Pennsylvania, or Michigan will doom his campaign.

  260. SHV — You may want to check out Eric Hoffer’s “The True Believer.” It’s a classic study of fanaticism — a quote from the Amazon Web site: “… frustration with one’s life is a peculiarity of fanatics … all mass movements strive to impose a fact proof screen between the faithful and the realities of the world.[Hoffer] says that in the context of mass movements faith should not be judged by its profundity, sublimity, or truth but by how thoroughly it insulates the individual from himself and the world as it is.”

  261. …but I want Hillary now! Lord only knows what will happen, Biden for HRC, BO’s resume lies, BO being willing to sell out our troops, etc. etc.
    Who knows what tomorrow will bring.
    But she has to get to pick her own VP

  262. Jessica – That’s covered in the latest post, where you are too cowardly to go, apparently.

    It never fails to amaze me how O-bots seem to think that “just one more endorsement!111!!!” will get us to vote Obama.

    Nagahapin.

  263. I just wanted to weigh in and say, “Bravo!” Well said and aptly put.

    Now, just to be fair, I am a former-liberal, for lack of a better term – libertarian. I’ve stepped away from the Democratic Party in the other direction. So I imagine that you and I would disagree on a *lot* of issues. But my first thought, when I read this blog entry, was, “I’d love to have a debate with her!” Because, clearly, you know how to debate, persuade, and cause one to ponder. That’s what makes debating politics fun.

    But the intellectual elements of debating have deteriorated into hatred and outright dismissal of the other person. The other *person*, not their ideas.

    From my experience: Disagreements between religious conservatives and non-religious conservatives can cause some serious emotions. YET I can debate with my religious conservative friends. We toss ideas back and forth. If things look like they might get ugly, one person will say, “We’ve reached an impasse” and we’re on to something else. When all is said and done, one will ask the other, “Are you going to the school carnival?” “Yes” “Well, I’ll see you there.”

    But when a liberal friend finds out I actually consider myself conservative, a wave of hatred and arrogance slams into me. Even without a debate. I still have one friend (?) who thinks I’m an evil capitalist, and we never actually discussed what I do and do not believe. In fact, she won’t discuss issues with anyone she feels is beneath her. How will she ever persuade anyone? It’s not about persuading, it’s about feeling superior and getting cozy with like-minded people I guess. I sure wish we had just duked it out instead of becoming the weird, “don’t approach that subject” acquaintances that we are now.

    Thanks for sharing your ideas.

    -Carolyn

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: