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Saturday: The forgotten

The presidential primary season and the drama that attended it has stretched for so long that some of us may have forgotten that there are other campaigns going on around the country.  Here in NJ-07, there is an excellent opportunity to pick up a house seat with Linda Stender.  I want to play a clip for you to show you just how special Linda is.  This is from her 2006 debate against Rep. Mike Ferguson where she presents her closing statement:

Ohhhh, yeah! Tell it, Linda!  In 2006, Linda came within 4000 votes of beating Ferguson’s ass.  I canvassed and phone banked for her that year and we *almost* pulled it out.  If Rahm Emmanuel hadn’t sunk so much of the DCCC money in places where the chances were slimmer, who knows if Linda might have won?  She got precious little help on her campaign from the nationals until the very end.  This district’s popuation is dense (in more ways than one) and to lose by less than 4000 votes is a triumph in itself but also a heartbreaking result.  It didn’t have to be.

Anyway, Linda’s campaign asked me to put in some time at her office today so that’s where I’m headed this morning.  Maybe there are PUMAs there.  We’ll see.  You can donate to Linda Stender’s campaign here. Oh, one more thing.  Despite our population size and supposed gender equity in NJ, the NJ Delegation to Congress doesn’t have one, even one female member out of 13 Representatives and 2 Senators.  Let’s do something about this.  It’s embarrassing.  Here’s one of her latest ads: “Working Hard *should* mean getting ahead”.  Ooo, who does she sound like?  No, no, don’t tell me…let me think…

In the meantime, we’ve gotten a few comments from Green party activists at The Confluence.  One commenter in particular is lamenting that PUMA is dissing someone who wants to talk about primary reform on blogtalkradio.  Look, guys, it’s not that I’m not sympathetic but blogtalkradio is like blogs in general. The barrier to starting your own show is very low. There is no reason why you have to depend on PUMA to be heard. I suspect their reluctance to interview is based on a couple of things:

  1. Your take on the primary system is widely shared. In fact, there have been several bloggers who have gone into quite a bit of detail on the subject. If *I* were planning a show on the primary system, I would interview anglachel, a political science guru.  She wrote about this very subject in (Wonk) the Primary Vote back in March. The level of detail, insight and thoroughness on the subject puts everyone else’s take I’ve read to shame.
  2. I may be wrong here but you appear to be a fan of the Green party. PUMAs are not Greens. They are Democrats or former Democrats. We’re not interested in Green party dynamics. Sorry. Your candidates so far have been a little fringey. Nader and McKinney come to mind. Going to the Greens would be little different than voting for Obama. In Obama’s case, the ideologues are zealously screaming for CHANGE!, whatever that’s supposed to mean, while with the Greens, the ideologues are zealously screaming for dumping everything in the current system that many Americans now rely on, like corporations for jobs and gas powered engines and stuff like that. The point of the PUMA movement is that change doesn’t happen by ideology alone. The ideologues can’t simply grab the reins of power and impose their vision of the world on the rest of us. They have to be able to work hard and sometimes with their enemies. I don’t see that either the Greens or Obamarama have abandoned their belief in magical thinking. I object to parties composed of people who demand an unattainable degree of purity from human beings. I’m a rational person. I think most PUMAs are.

So, there you have it. If you feel miffed at the PUMAs because they won’t invite you to talk on their radio programs, start your own. If you can’t find an audience, don’t blame the PUMAs. Maybe we just don’t like the message.

In other news:

  • Don’t forget to set your dials tonight for blogtalkradio’s newest addition, Meet Me in Denver with Darragh Murphy and Friends.  You can listen here tonight at 9PM EST.
  • The Denver Group has written a letter to Howard Dean.  It seems the Deanster has acknowledged our troublemaking activities.  To summarize the point of the letter, a roll call vote in Denver with Hillary’s name on it is insufficient and merely symbolic.  In order for the roll call vote to be a valid expression of the will of the voters and their delegates, Hillary’s name must be nominated.  That is, someone has to go to the mike and say, “I so-and-so ask that Hillary Clinton be nominated for POTUS” or something to that effect.  If only Obama is nominated, it won’t matter if Hillary’s name is on the ballot.  Only one name will count- Obama’s.  Now, Dean is busily flim-flamming people on TV to make it sound all tickety-boo and get the Hillary supporters to shut up and sit down.  Nah-gah-happen, Howie,  Not until we see the schedule of events that say: Speaker X to introduce Hillary Clinton’s name into nomination for POTUS.  Must be signed in Donna’s blood. preferably voluntarily.
  • Heidi Li is promoting the 160th anniversary of the Seneca Falls Conference on Women’s Rights this weekend.  Check it out.

We are a proud member of the coalition known as JustSayNoDeal-Accept no substitutes!

89 Responses

  1. Have a great day, RD. It really is ‘s a good time to think about supporting down-ticket Dems–especially the ones unwaivering in their support of Hillary.

    At our action meeting, Seattle PUMAS threw out the idea of Adopt -a-POL:

    Choosing two national elected SDs (possibly two non-elected too) that were vocal supporters of Hillary throughout, and who haven’t joined the unity movement.

    The point is to show the strength of PUMA love ($$$). Press releases would be essential to demonstrate that PUMAs have $$$ power and would be loyal to those showing the courage to support Hillary.

    When we find out where we are with Hill’s debt and move past it, I think we should do this! Very powerful message to SDs.

  2. Quick question:

    Is HireHeels a PUMA site?

  3. peter anderson: HireHeels didn’t start out as a PUMA site just as The Confluence didn’t start out as a PUMA site. I would say they are a JustSayNoDeal site with PUMA members. Just like there are Conflucians here who are PUMAs but not all Conflucians are PUMAs.

  4. peter ,yes hireheels is most definately puma/just say no deal.diane was in this at the beginning.

  5. Seriously, Peter, we are not into Green. That isn’t to say you might not find one here or there but I’m kind of resenting Greens trying to change the conversation on the PUMA blogs. We’re really not that into you. Give it a rest and go start your own movement. You will find very few converts here, if any.

  6. John Edwards is Back…With, Of All Things, the “Fear Card”

    This would be funny if it weren’t so SAD…
    and all so predictable…UGH!

    …includes a thank you to PUMA for all the support in putting up with this litany of phony fundraising letters….

  7. don tufts: My point is that HireHeels predates PUMA as does The Confluence. The Confluence is a blog with PUMA members but we will always be The Confluence no matter what.

  8. I think peter’s ´point is that hireheels has a post about a green candidate…but I nevetheless don’t care about the greens xD

  9. I’ll bet the Green Party activists were trying to use “primary reform” as an opportunity to push instant-runoff-voting. This has been part of their party strategy for years. They used to constantly infiltrate diaries on The Blog That Shall Not Be Named talking up IRV. Sometimes they’d admit to being Greens, othertimes not. They are persistent.

  10. luckyann: Just because one of the coalition blogs says something nice about a Green candidate doesn’t mean we’re receptive to Green ideology. It could be just a voting strategy to get rid of someone they loathe.

  11. grayslady: The primary system *does* need reform and I am open to ideas but the Greens are hardly unique in their concerns.
    Also, they might be persistent, but *I* have the keys to the spam dungeon.
    Something to think about, Peter et al. Stay on topic or go start your own movement.

  12. Linda Stender sounds like a great candidate.

    But there was a time when I thought that Claire McCaskill was a great candidate too. How do we know when we support someone that they will not turn out to be a “politics as usual” Senator or Congress Person once they get into office?

    Since we are not mind readers my best thought would be that we send the message about this flip-flopping crap by making sure that those that turn into same-old/same-old the minute they hit D.C. don’t get a chance to do it more than once. Crappy Dems like McCaskill need to be primaried by “real” progressives and sent back into obscurity where they belong.

    That would make other freshman/woman pols think about what they are doing. IMHO.

  13. kenoshaMarge: Stender has always had a strong liberal/progressive platform and it has not changed over time. She’s also a quick study.

  14. RD et al.

    Thank you for your answers.

  15. peter ,if your a green let me as a centrist democrat say this to you.i own a small contracting business and primarily market to new construction.i support myself and 3 small children[riverdaughter 2 are bipolar,one gifted thats a handful at 13] one of my biggest issues now is drilling which i am totally for,now before anyone jumps me about not caring about the enviorment here is my take,unless the feds our tax dollars are going to subdize paying for new cars and trucks for everyone then we are stuck for right now.so we must drill and protect ourselves and our economy while at the same time putting massive resources into aternative sources,not ethanol,those of you that live on the east coast in large metropolitan areas have mass transit where those of us inthe west do not.i am spending between 40 and 60 dollars a day for gas and it is draining my lifeblood.those of you that dont have kids at home probably have not noticed how much groceries have gone up lately that is a direct result of fuel cost for truckers.for anyone to say as our illustrious leaders are doing in denver to say we as a nation can subsist on locally grown organic food has no idea how unrealistic that is.especially for places like LA,phoenix or VEGAS..they can drill safely and quickly if we as a nation put our minds to it.sorry for the long rant but im frustrated that people especially the leaders in my party dont get this and are playing politics with it..

  16. quick hello before starting house chores. ahhh. want to get done so I can go to Asheville for the commemoration of the Seneca Falls Convention.

    Would love to have a candidate like Linda Stender. I am going to check immediately to make sure my congressman has not yet endorsed O.

    KenoshaMarge. I agree. Everytime I think of McCaskill I see her grinning face behind O saying he didn’t snub Hillary at the State of the Union address. A huge disappointment.

    Showed my husband the youtube of Hillary’s speech before the vote to override the veto of Medicare bill. Healthcare is so imp to us and he wants to forward it to colleagues. Hillary is so superior to the other candidates I can only hope and work to help the SD to wake up.

    Have a great day.

  17. So why won’t Greens be promoted here? Because they’re not McCain? Because that’ll prevent you all from earning McCain Points at McCain Space? Gimme a break. Hillary is ashamed of places like this that are out to destroy Democrats in her name.

  18. Is this a open thread or do we have to wait for one?

  19. Loyal Democrat, on July 19th, 2008 at 11:08 am Said:
    actually mccain isn’t promoted here either- at least not as far as I know.

  20. and destorying Democrats? Isn’t this a post about helping downticket…DEMS??

  21. Loyal: Did I mention I have keys to the spam dungeon?
    Look, I didn’t start this site to promote McCain. I started it to promote the best Democrat. That turned out to be Hillary Clinton.
    If the Deaniacs persist on shoving Obama down our throats when he clearly is the LEAST best Democrat, then they will get what they deserve when Obama gets gagged up in November.
    I don’t like John McCain, have no intention of voting for John McCain, do not work for John McCain. But if John McCain ends up being president, I’m going to blame YOU for it.
    Now, go away or we will taunt you a second time.

  22. MABlue: You can say whatever you like in this thread. i just didn’t want the thing to be highjacked by the Greens who for some reason can’t figure out how to start their own blogs.

  23. This is an action plan that can really make a difference. Without a legislative branch that will actually take a stand and pass good, strong legislation we can’t fix this mess.

    As the saying goes “money talks” and PUMA $$$$ AND voting power will get the attention of candidates. Yeah, the ones that didn’t just “fall in line” like good little girls and guys. We actually have a mind and voice AND vote of our own.

    RD, thanks for the reminder about downticket. Iron Jawed Angels is on HBO again this week. We owe so much to those that did so much. Remember it was a Democratic administration that jailed those suffragettes. We need to work for good strong candidates.

  24. morning all!! we’re going to the zoo today! we can’t to get some pics of real pumas 🙂 see you all later this evening.

  25. can’t=want btw

  26. The great thing about this movement is even though
    we all have the same goal: NOBAMA 08′; we all have different points of view!
    For me one is finding out exactly how “NEUTRAL” was
    Rahm Emmanuel-REALLY!! *AND:
    “As an American & a local Chicago public official; “if”
    Obama was’nt in his “HOME-CHURCH” honoring
    “our” AMERICAN TRAGEDY-09/11, then where DID HE? I tried checking the Hyde Park news, but I’m not good with computers, I would think some local paper would have reported the where-abouts of their officials.
    “If” he was’nt there, what was his reaction to the sermon when he must have found out??
    This man is WRONG to BE PRESIDENT either:
    1-For being COMPLETELY UN-AWARE of the EVENTS
    2-For having NO-SPINE to SPEAK OUT FOR ALL AMERICAN’s AGAINST what was being said!

  27. riverdaughter ,i ment no slight.i have grown fond of this community since finding you during the last of the primaries and i think you have a sharp mind and a quick wit.later from the summer oven otherwise known as phoenix. gotta go to work.

  28. I have been trying to find the comment left on this site, by greenconsciousness because I wanted to comment, and I cannot find it now.

    I am really taken aback by the hostility to her. I have been reading this blog, her blog and Mark at democratinexile.com (formerly men for hillary) for awhile.

    I have not seen anything indicating greenconsciousness is working for the Green Party. She has promoted PUMA and lists Anglachel as one of her favorite blogs. She also has quotes from and links to riverdaughter.

    I think she was trying to let people here know about the research and work that Mark has done. I happen to agree that it is worth knowing about. Each of their work is very much PUMA. I appears to have been dismissed without even looking at it. I also think it is important to link, communicate and share information.

    I was excited to feel that we had a true grass roots movement here. People come to it from differing perspectives, but with a similar goal. People support Hillary for different reasons. I thought PUMA was about real democracy.

    Why not read them?



    It is starting to feel like a clique here, to me.


  29. Good Morning.

    I believe she is withholding the numbers for the big “TADAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH” factor in the morning to knock any wind out of his sails on the trip.

    2nd – RD – I said this on another thread. I saw Markos on MSNBC last night. What a little turd faced piece of dukkie he is. Brook could have taken him. How dare some little nothin’ like him get to make the decisions for the world. He is destined to burn in hades.

    PUMA$ Who Donate Rule!

  30. Asheville, NC commemoration of Seneca Falls Convention is at 3pm on courthouse steps if anyone is in the area.

  31. Attention Hire Heels is a PUMA sight and a JSND site we are one big happy famly HH sometimes is overrun by trolls but the girls beat them back….

    I comment on HH alot too.

    they adore shoes but they love Hillary!


  32. Fran: The comment you are looking for is here. If I didn’t know better, I would say that greenconsciousness did the first dissing of the PUMAs by implying that PUMAs have some kind of responsibility to cover her views and if we don’t, we’re power hungry snobs.
    This is incorrect. Green and her friends are welcome here but if they want more attention for their own views, they are perfectly able to start their own blogs and radio shows.
    Our mission here at The Confluence is twofold: 1.)To give Democrats an alternative to the ideological zealotry that that has taken over the party. and 2.) To promote a fair, open and transparent convention as the only way to confer legitimacy on the party’s nominee.
    If green and her friends buy into this, GREAT! If not, they have options. I am simply encouraging them to exercise them.
    If I came off sounding mean, well, I’m really sorry but I find Green philosophy tiresome and unrealistic.

  33. Fran:

    This is probably more support group than clique. There are also many things that RD (and others) clean up so they don’t weigh down the threads with troll comments.

    Sometimes other comments are cleaned up or hit the spam filter by accident.

    We are PUMAs for different reasons with different reactions. For some it is about democracy, for some it is about having the chance to have Hillary be the nominee, for others it is about the DNC following its own rules…

  34. BO has got a new name Bothways Barack


  35. Michael and don t: I LOVE HireHeels and JustSayNoDeal. They do it with style. My point is that they pre-date the PUMA movement. That’s all.

  36. LOL I love bothways barak even more than bactrack obama … ANY NAME but PRESIDENT 🙂 I even made a feeble joke …
    why is his smile so wide?? because he talks out of both sides of his mouth at once … ok ok its feeble I know but its true ANY NAME but PRESIDENT BARACK hehehehe

  37. Hey all the HH post about Cynthia is more about a response to the Obamanation onslaught that Hillary’s “block” of voters have no where else to go.

    We have been hearing for the last two months that we will come on board and support “the big”o” because there is no one else out there .

    The “on consignment” post was just showing that we have many options besides McCain or Obama and it if we choose to accept them. The person doing the post was not a regular HH poster thats what the “on consignment” means.

    Sista christianlouboutin has asked me to post and I am just rying to find a good topic any suggestions?

    I thought the post was thought provoking….how could they continue to call PUMA’s rasist if we voted for a female black candidate. Talk about an argument that could not hold water with a collandar…

    We in Puma are dedicated to no obama in november…how we get to that point is an individual journey. I respect every one who chooses to vote McCain, stay home, leave the top of the ballot blank but vote down ticket, write in Hillary where allowed, or choose a third party candidate.

    I do not think you can be a Puma/JSND member and vote Obama…but that is just my opinion.


  38. Phala in NC, 11:07, everytime I think of McCaskill, I hear her saying about Bill Clinton, ” Let’s just put it this way, I wouldn’t want him to babysit my daughter”. She said that while she was running for the Senate. I knew she was shit then, but I also knew Talent was worse. Maybe I’m waking from the D after the name blindness.

  39. RD and all —

    On supporting candidates — during the legislative fights over marriage equality in Mass. one of my friends was heavily involved with MassEquality. One of the things that they did which really helped build momentum was that once they built up a decent group of their own volunteers, they would have their volunteer groups work campaigning, and especially doing campaign calling for supportive pols. Sort of like they lent out their volunteers to sympathetic pols, but as a group. And they got groups of volunteers from allied causes in return (eventually)

    They were enough people that working the ground games that they were able to convince a lot of legislators that voting for gay marriage would NOT be a fatal career move.

    When RD said she was volunteering for Stender, it made me think of this — if we had groups of PUMA volunteers who worked like this it could be a good strategy.

    I’m not that savvy about political campaigning, so maybe y’all have already got this all figured out or maybe it’s standard already. But I thought it was great the way Mass Equality generated a lot of good will and not just with $. With the economy sucking and most PUMAs (I think) not being 20-something internet millionaires, seems like a good thing.

    PS I mean for supporting folks like Stender, not the Greens — I’m not sure what the whole Greens-spam conversation is and I don’t really care.

  40. I completely agree Michael, it would be a contradiction, to be a PUMA , and vote for backslap . Also just for my part, it hurt me so much to see “my party” give away AMERICAN VOTES that i fell too betrayed as a citizen to vote Democratic . Betrayed and violated like that , I just cannot bring myself to support sonething isee as inherently insupportable .

  41. Rght RD these sights are Proto-Puma/JSND sights RD we have a common goal of an Open Process and taking back our party…and No Obama in November.

    Remember a protest vote nmo matter for who is probably going to result in a sacrifice of the white house -if Hillary is not the Nominee- its going to hurt and be painful to J McCain take the oath on 01/20/2009. That is what a scarifice is all about.


  42. Sorry Phala but I have to stay in Franklin. As always, good thread folks. Good clarification on the Greens– I was always leery but never knew exactly why– now I do and it is magical thinking. Not quite as far out as the Unity Pony, though.

  43. oh and one more on sacrafices-it usually takes the poeple whom the sacrafice is made for a while to realize the sacrafice is worth it…

    the folks who will hate us (the Obamacrats) will eventually see that the problems of this nation are to big for a junior senator who has not showed up for work and not finished 1/2 of his first term.

    Oh and could someone tell mr axelrod to stop ruining HGTV with so many Obama commercials. I have to keep the vomit bucket infront of me when I am watching House Hunters.


  44. Hi again— I am so glad Hillary is taking that fool Bush on with contraception, omg.

    A note to the greens among us, because I have been a Dem since Reagan years — and voted Nader the year B got in. RD is correct in this one thing especially — most of US doesn’t know what GREEN is, except from some Oprah style product push–seriously!

    Green was born in California, a long time ago in the 70’s — it used to be called the “Ecology Movement” — what it meant was awareness of all the things that are now true, or coming true –ecologically…

    Gore made his “green” film because he knew about the sorts of things we all did. So what it meant then was overpopulation would kill off the planet (coming true now — food shortages) — pollution would make the ozone layer change, melt the icecaps (true now) —

    Where I live — green is part of “surf culture” — pollution is the big thing, and we recycle and all that stuff — kind of like the “simplicity movement” — it’s just normal to live like that. I think the Repubs call us “moonbats” for basically being pacifists? But that is just what California is — and we have a HUGE environmental movement — It’s huge—-

    Greens think of ways to make things that aren’t going to hurt the planet any further. For instance, they would use bamboo (which is a renewable resource) for things like paper, flooring and so forth.

    Greens are also for going off grid—- this means solar, wind, and sea power rather than nuclear (pollution) —

    But, who is going to understand all this stuff if they haven’t grown up here? Not many. Nader was around in the 70’s, and was famous for going after bad things like Pinto cars I think– kind of like how modern greens grow gardens organically — he might have gone after the pesticide people, once.

    Where all of this becomes very sticky right now is that other countries don’t follow our rules and as our businesses moved overseas they pollute over there, or exploit the poor “over there” to get rich…

    Hillary was closest to a Green in the Dems. By now everyone knows we need cars that won’t pollute. Actually McCain is a Green in a lot of ways because he grew up knowing what Gore and Nader know, Hillary too. O is CLUELESS about green. Today over at No Q Uppity has a piece up about how he is trying to “go green” — right — he has plastic effing yard signs. (Imbecile) to Californians. Imbecile! Out here, we have very stringent laws in some cities like San Fran — we don’t use plastic shopping bags and stuff. That may see odd to a lot of people — but it is because they end up on the beaches and strangle our marine life, like seals and birds?

    I think each part of the country has different ways of living.

    O is so stupid. I will go McCain just to make sure he can’t, since they have done what they have to Hillary. O is dangerous. Very much like a Fascist in his cultomania, right now, and the American economy is tanking — it resembles 1930 –and if you study History — over in Europe you know who rose to power in bad economic times…

    Hillary, first and foremost is for US. In lieu of her McC is as well — I feel. O is all about being “redeemed” as a Messiah, or?

    Smart PUMAS see through O. We are his age. Or a little older. That is why we don’t like him. NQ is holding him accountable on EVERYTHING like the way he scrubs his websites — keeps waffling on things he says, keeps renouncing his old allies, and so forth.

    Frankly, I hope he gaffes it up in Europe, truly. Once they see who he is (ego) like Germany has, he can’t fool them any more than he has tried to fool us. He’s not a Dem. He may be a Demagogue.

    He is bought and paid for by? There is the rub. He has done VERY bad things in Chicago with VERY bad people, and could it be that he is paying off the media? We don’t know do we?

    Anyway, all us Dems KNOW each other, because we know what our collective ideology has been. Hillary represents that. It’s just BS when they try and say our group is a front for McC. No we aren’t. But some of us will go his way (anti-our WHOLE way of Dem being) — just to not let O reign. Because what he wants is like Versailles…

    So anyway — Green is old fashioned, but also forward thinking — I’m not sure what it means when you have said “down ticket” — and just recently looked up Yellow Dog dem, or Blue dem. I am Green Dem? geez. At least if I go McC, I know I’m getting somebody who isn’t going to be B — he isn’t. He will do right by those veterans, that are going to need a lot of help with the PTSD, and he isn’t a warmonger. I read how he feels about war in his book, Faith of my Fathers. I know RD has family who serve, it’s important that those Vets are taken care of, properly!

    A lot of them are already homeless in LA. This is WRONG!

    And so, that is where a Green Dem stands — and right now? Nationalism looks a lot better than Fascism. I swear.

  45. Oh and the Ministry of Truth is correcting an error in the maps out there that erroneously put Bagdad in the country of IRAQ.

    The City of Bagdad has always been in Afganistan it will always be in Afganistan and cannot be anywhere else. Just as Big Brother Obama said. Possession of any of the maps that contain this error is a crime and will label you a racist.

    (your 1984 ref for today)


  46. Swannie, on July 19th, 2008 at 12:07 pm Said:
    I completely agree Michael, it would be a contradiction, to be a PUMA , and vote for backslap . Also just for my part, it hurt me so much to see “my party” give away AMERICAN VOTES that i fell too betrayed as a citizen to vote Democratic . Betrayed and violated like that , I just cannot bring myself to support sonething isee as inherently insupportable .

    That’s the rub, isn’t it? That’s what I can’t wish away, think away or “just get over.” The vote stealing is the deal breaker for me.

  47. Another seat that can be picked in NY is for Eric Massa
    Not only was he a Hillary supporter, he even came to DC on may 31 – and spoke about how Hillaey helped him and the value of loyalty.

  48. Hi All! I was so excited this morning when the mail came in! I had an envelope asking for money from Obambi!!!!! I taped $.02 to the response sheet, crossed out the words “We are the change we want” with “You” are “Not” the change we want, told them to take me off their list and wrote “NOBAMA” and “PUMA” on the sheet and put in the pre-paid envelope and put it in the mailbox. Boy did that feel good!!!!

    President Hillary ’08

  49. There are a lot of people who find it disconcerting that there is a movement where we don’t all walk in lockstep.

    I get complaints on Capital Hill from those who want everyone to think the same.

    I’m glad PUMA has so many different points of view.

    Mountain Sage

  50. sweetiesue: the vote stealing was the final straw and makes me as t to walk away from the party forever. But we must recognize that our best chance of reversing this nomination is to use the party nominating rules and insist that the party respect the intent of 18 million voters.
    If the party doesn’t, then we burn its ass. But we must vigorously pursue the party mechinism first.

  51. Thanks for the info RD. I just don’t want to be fooled again.

    I still get pyst off every time I remember that I sent some of the very little money I can afford to give to McCaskill. Do any PUMAs in Missouri know if she’s gonna face a tough primary next time around? I think I read that she’s not very popular in her state. True?

    Do you know who Linda Stender supported in the primary?

    I did love the way Stender just took off with her facts. This is a candidate that doesn’t need a teleprompter and yes, she does remind me of another very smart Democratic Lady. 🙂

  52. Since the first Nader vote in 2000, it was clear that the Greens bled the Democratic party of votes.

    We’re not here to weaken the Democratic party. We’re to clean up the Democratic party & to clean up the agenda of the Democartic party—— first immediate goal is to change the candidate, and then to get her elected.

    It would be lovely if some extremist groups of the Republican party broke away and started their own new parties, but they are not doing that because they want to stay the in the stronger party and have everyone else be unorganized and weaker.

  53. We PUMAS are cats… ever see anyone try to “herd cats” hehehehe

  54. Marsha,

    I got the Obama letter too; across the top I wrote:

    Universal Health Care is the change we are waiting for.

    In the middle I wrote: I have been working, not waiting, for change for the past 30 years!

    I added my own return address: PUMA! so anyone handling the letter will know where it is coming from!

  55. Riverdaughter …. I absolutely agree we must pursue the party mechanism first , with singular focus … that is how they will hear us … as MUCH AS I would have loved to see the Hillary INDIE PARTY , i know too well it wouldn’t work ….

  56. After the November election will this coalition stay together and make every effort to reform the democrats primary system.

  57. The Greens are natural allies to PUMAs, as they’re not particularly thrilled with the regressive stances Obama has taken since the end of the primary, especially FISA and the comments on women’s reproductive justice. While certain Greens who think it’s PUMAs responsibility to back them on primary reform (or whatever) are acting a bit entitled, being rude and telling them they’re “just not into them” isn’t building a coalition. My original understanding of PUMA was, in part, that PUMAs planned on showing their displeasure with the DNC’s actions and the Chosen One with their votes, whether it be abstention, spoiling the ballot, voting McCain, or voting Green, etc. There are plenty of PUMA sympathizers within Green sympathizers: progressive, pragmatic Dems, feminists, etc, who were shocked at the sexism and the shady events of May 30, who consider themselves Dems, but don’t want to vote McCain or Obama, and want to vote Green to signal to the Democrats that they should stop pandering to religious conservatives and misogynists.

    I recently defended the PUMA movement on Shakesville, and told Green sympathizers that PUMA would accept them. Was I wrong to do so?

    I just think you’re shooting yourself in the foot by alienating prospective coalition allies, based on the posts of a couple of jerks.

  58. Marsha: Hi, kiddo!

    The hubby considers it a personal challenge to find a new, offensive, informative way to respond to the O’s beggings. Bet you can guess the timbre of those special responses!

  59. riverdaughter, absolutely. I meant the vote stealing was the Obama deal breaker for me. It’s why I can’t vote for him if it comes to that.

  60. Cynthia McKinney is not an option for me. Surely I agree with her on some things, just as I disagree with her on some things. But, Cynthia McKinney in my humble opinion is just not qualified to be POTUS. Think about it.

  61. Parentofed:

    It was the first actual begging I had received in the mail. I already gave them an earful online to take my e-mail off their list, it took two times!!!

    I like the $.02 cents thing, if I get another I’m going to do it again, just so their accountants will have to write it up.

    President Hillary ’08

  62. The Green bashing is all beside the point since the comment that started it had NOTHING to do with the Green Party, and everything to do with finding ways to fix the undemocratic primary of the Democratic party.

    Of course, if you want nothing to do with that person, that is your prerogative. As someone who reads everything on this blog, I am just stunned.

    RD – It looks like your read into the comment and took offense. I see someone who may be frustrated, but not someone who dissed you.

    I say this with all due respect to the work you have been doing.


  63. Hey RD,

    I’m no Nader voter and I want to end the Oil Age… we moved safely from the era of horses to horsepower, and there is a lot of evidence that we can do the same in transitioning to using electric power to power vehicles.

    Hillary had a $10,000 EV subsidy in her super clean energy plan. Japan funded the Prius development with a similarly meaty subsidy. And look where Hybrids are now.

    Please don’t dis post peak oil plans as mere pie in the sky Nader thinking. Hillary is on Boxer’s Env committee where great things could happen if we could knock out Inohofe and a few more flatearthers.

    (I didn’t post my EV news here as in the end it looked so irrelevant to your site’s mission here, but) there are real moves afoot in Cars After The Oil Age (google me): I still have the list over at the cheetopia as the eco kossacks are still a decent lot: a lot of them never open non eco diaries and have no clue about the primary shenanigans..

  64. RD – The vote-stealing was the final straw for me too.

    I agree with your approach. We give them a chance to do the right thing and push them to do it REALLY HARD.

    If they don’t, McCain will be the next President.

    What kills me about the Obama people is that they don’t understand this simple fact: even if the entire Democratic coalition were unified behind the nominee, Obama could STILL LOSE.

    Look at John Kerry. I can’t think of many Democrats who didn’t vote for him in 2004, can you? I certainly donated $$$ to him and was at the voting booth bright and early that November morning.

    Yet even Kerry, with all the Democrats behind him, lost Ohio because of election fraud, poor campaigning skills, and effective Swiftboating by the Republicans.

    So Obama’s answer to that is registering more voters?

    Utterly clueless.

  65. taggles, I don’t think anyone thinks Cynthia McKinney is ready to be President, per se. But there are a lot of middle-of-the-road progressives (feminists, LGBT, environmentalists, civil rights activists/sympathizers) within the Democratic Party who loved Hillary, are pissed at the DNC and their thuggery, can’t make themselves vote for Obama, and can’t make themselves vote for McCain/any Rethuglican. A Green vote for many Dems, this year – in a year that should have been a walk-away for the Dems – if Obama is the nominee, is a protest vote.

    (Not saying you have to vote Green! Your vote is your own. I’m just trying to explain that their are natural allies within the Democratic party who, if given the choice between ‘party unity’ and Green, would choose Green. These people are allies.)

  66. Linda Stender is in great shape this year; her opponent is weak; her name recognition is high and it’s a democratic year. She does need something to counter the slogan that beat her last time; “Stender is a spender.” But thank goodness Ferguson is gone and Stender is going to win. I am so mad at the Democrats that I was thinking of sitting this one out, but Stender will be a welcome change for our district. I just sent her a second contribution of $100.00.

    Go Linda!

  67. I also get a request in snail mail….

    I tear off the details of my name and address and thenn rip the rest into small bits, stuff it back in their paid envelope.

    I want them to continue sending me this is snail mail so I can spend their dollars for the pre-paid envelope annd hiring of staff to openn these envelopes!!!! WAY to spend their own money!!!!

  68. what started out as a snowball of doubt and dislike for bo and disillusionment with the media .. has avalanched for me into throwing down a whole mountain and lifetime of voting democratic , and the people responsible need to know they cannot hijack this party …. and be left to think what they have done is with the bounds of democracy and be rewarded for it by winnning the election .. that is what I think , and am more than willing to pay for and work for . what I so deeply believe in
    Where is the TEA show me the harbor I will throw IT !!!
    I saw the havoc wreaked on the dems by Nader , and as much as we KNEW those votes for Nader would have gone to Gore no one handed them over now did they ??? So for me going for the Green party is not an option
    .. when I so deeply feel the democratic party has been hijacked ….

  69. RK, I understand that and I wholeheartedly agree with you that she is an option. If someone wants to make a protest vote for Cynthia McKinney go for it I say!!! People can vote how they like. We all need to be respectful of eachother.

    But RD is right that this movement is not about the green party platform. We have issues we agree on and some we don’t. We can find common ground in the issues we agree on. But as far as I know our beef is getting the DNC back and making them accountable. It’s not to hash out disagreements with the green party. Know what I mean?

  70. IMO, the “Green” agenda should and hopefully WILL be incorporated into the Dem party, once it is “cleaned-up”. I certainly never had anything against making the world safer, healthier, cleaner, more ecologically & economically sound. I was just amazed that all-of-a- sudden the Dems were all about becoming more like Republicans, and those switching to Green were never going to be able to make the changes that they wanted when going outside of the system. I think also that we are doing the right thing by working within the system, not turning into a bunch of middle-aged hippies who take an easy-going attitude toward a society who has been taught to grab and take and use and throw away anything that they can.

  71. I can vote for McKinney…cos I am not a racist!!!
    My way to show the finger at BO.

    I cann and more likely vote McCain…depends on the polls in my state…

  72. NQ has a link to a blog posting by Bonnie Erbe at US News & World Report. Erbe is one of a tiny handful of journalists who have shown fairness and respect for Hillary this season. She’s also criticized both Clintons in in the past, whenever she sees fit. IOW, a real journalist.

  73. I must be extremely fortunate .. i watch HGTV and havent yet seen a single how to vote by yourself for obama while vomiting commercial ….:)

    Wouldnt it be cool if we could run a

    HOW TO fix the BROKEN democratic party with PUMA commercial on HGTV ??
    That would be AWESOME

  74. taggles – I do see what you mean, and I agree. 🙂

    KarolinaNYC – people like you are exactly who I’m talking about. There are many practical Dems who lean progressive. That , to me, is the true base of the Democratic Party. 🙂

    The point is, Obama is the fauxgressive candidate. He’s not acceptable to, I’d estimate, 70% of the base coalitions of the Democratic Party: women, Latinos, working class, LGBT, energy conservationists/environmentalists, civil rights advocates…. the list goes on. The man alienates so many groups within the Party, it makes sense to reach out to all of them.

  75. We are Democrats. It is in our blood. Our worldview is based on the principles first spelled out in the Democratic platform. I doubt there are many of us here on this blog who are seriously considering membership in any other party as long as there is a chance of righting the wrongs that the current composition in the DNC have wrought. First and foremost, unless I am missing something here, our goal is to actively bring back the principles which seem to have been mislaid over the past 4 years.

    Hillary gave us a hint during the primaries when she agreed that both she and McCain had the experience to become POTUS. She did not say the same of Obama. That in itself leads me to the conclusion that her beliefs are as much current as when she said this the first time.

    Therefore, I have no compunction to vote Obama based on that assessment. Nothing has changed. He is not ready to lead no matter how strongly the MSM wishes to present his “creds” on the world stage. What it says to me is that apparently Hillary would be willing to live with a McCain administration and if it is good enough for her, and if it comes down to this in November, then it is good enough for me. I may not cast my vote for him but I can guarantee it will not go to Obama.

  76. Everything you said, Riverdaughter.

    The “Super Delegates” who are up for election theis year are shit out of luck now that Obambi took the party apparatus apart. (gawd, he’s destryoing the Democratic party!)

    GO LINDA STENDER! Good luck & hope she wins!

    Green Party people: I think PUMA an Green can be collaborators, but Cynthia McKinney is not a candidate I’d support because she’s also a product of the Chicago Machine, and call me a tin foil wearer, but I highly suspect that Cynthia McKinney was PLACED in the Green Party on purpose to make more room for Obama among white liberals.

  77. rktothemk – I agree with your post. I am definitely the type of Democrat who is very liberal.

    I think the point is not that we shouldn’t reach out to the Greens and include them, but that we shouldn’t allow our PUMA agenda, which is to work for change WITHIN the Democratic Party, to be hijacked by their agenda, which is to promote change through the Green Party.

    Is that fair?

  78. madamab – I don’t think that anyone here is suggesting otherwise.

  79. Oh and – there’s a new post up if people are interested.


  80. Very fair, madamab! I was just suggesting that we be careful to avoid alienating language, is all. I was a little taken aback reading this post three days after I assured liberal dems that voting for McCain wasn’t a PUMA requirement, that PUMAs accepted Dems of all stripes and voting inclinations. 🙂

  81. rktothemk – I am not voting for McCain myself. I think the only requirement is “NOBAMA.” 🙂

  82. My peeps at BAR have been writing some of the most sensational pieces on the Obama agenda.

    Here are some of the post from the past few days:

    On the pathetic state of what the “Left” has become just to accomodate Obama

    Where Obamaism Seems to be Going
    ( … )
    This is what passes for a left now in this country. It is a left that can insist, apparently, that Obama’s FISA vote, going out of his way (after all, he could simply have followed the model of Eisenhower on the Brown decision and said that the Court has ruled; therefore it’s the law, and his job as president would be to enforce the law) to align himself – twice, or three times — with the Scalia/Thomas/Roberts/Alito wing of the Supreme Court, his declaring that social problems, unlike foreign policy adventurism, are “too big for government” and pledging to turn over more of HHS and HUD’s budgets to the Holy Rollers are both tactically necessary and consistent with his convictions. So, if those are his convictions, or for that matter what he feels he must do opportunistically to get elected, why the fuck should we vote for him?

    I’d been thinking about doing a “See, I told you so” column about Obama; then, especially given the torrent of vituperation and self-righteous contumely I got after arguing that he’s not what far too many nominal leftists were trying to make him out to be, I was tempted instead to do a “To hell with you, you deserve what you get” column. But the smug yuppies to whom I’d address that message — the fan club we encounter in foundation offices, faculty meetings, soccer games and dinner parties and on MSNBC and in the Nation — are neither the only people who’ve listened to Obama’s siren song nor the ones who’ll pay the price for their self-indulgent idiocy.

    Here is one of the greatest essay on what a fraud Obama actually is:

    Freedom Rider: Obama to Make World Safe for the Rich

    Barack Obama has spent years avoiding being “pegged” or “tagged” as a man of the Left. People should accept the fact – he’s no progressive. And no Black militant, by any stretch of the imagination. “He has to slander all black men. He has to threaten war with Iran. He can’t end the occupation of Iraq.” Obama’s full of compulsions, and phobias, too. “He has to tell lies and claim he was against warrantless surveillance and then vote in favor of it.” Mostly, Obama has to do whatever is required to service his mega-million campaign apparatus, “a well oiled marketing machine that convinces gullible people to believe he is who they want him to be.
    How many years has Barack Obama been sucking up to rich, powerful people? It is clear that the Cinderella story of the neophyte who suddenly struck political pay dirt is just one of many well marketed lies.

    I can’t do some of these posts justice by excerpting because they are so good. Check them out from time to time, these guys and gals got game.

  83. “Karolina NYC, on July 19th, 2008 at 1:09 pm Said:

    IMO, the “Green” agenda should and hopefully WILL be incorporated into the Dem party, once it is “cleaned-up”. I certainly never had anything against making the world safer, healthier, cleaner, more ecologically & economically sound. I was just amazed that all-of-a- sudden the Dems were all about becoming more like Republicans”

    Indeed – if we want the PUMA vote to move the party left, then voting green tells the D party that we are to the left, and next time, dont run a “bipartisan” (cave in to Republican agendas) candidate, run a real progressive clean energy Democrat.

    Hillary comes to mind.

    I think every vote for McCain, tells the DNC to move Right next time. It won’t be able to separate PUMA votes, because there already are Republicans, who could have suddenly surged without PUMA votes.

    On the other hand the Green party while it is a real fringey little party and will never win, every vote siphoned over there is a clearer messeage to the DNC, because if 18 million suddenly go to the green party, it would clearly say: “dissatisfied Dems”, because nobody would defect from the Republican party to vote green all of a sudden…it has to be dissatisfied Dems.

  84. This is green consciousness and since you find me tedious I am gone. I am a radical feminist, neither right nor left but a pagan and a green witch. I do not belong to the green party and do not agree with their platform or candidates.

    It does bother me that you thought I was insulting you – far from it – I thought I was speaking to people who would understand. Organizers who prefer campaigns to one shot disruptions with clarity of goals.

    This is from my website and an explanation of greenconsciousness which does not belong to a political party but is earth /planet consciousness and nothing to sniff your noses at:

    From the atom, through (wo)man, to other spiritual realities…
    we have a spectrum or band of frequencies
    which differentiates
    types of consciousness.

    …vegetable consciousness, greenness…is another type of energy whose frequency range overlaps with, but is not identical to ours.

    …Bentov diagrams a series of energy exchange curves which illustrate this overlap among different frequencies of consciousness, different realities. Thus we [as humans] experience something of vegetable consciousness on one side and Angelic consciousness on the other.

    Indeed, might it be that “memory” is our animal-vegetable-mineral heritage, the way in which rocks and stones, plants and trees, birds and fishes, continue in us, and that ” imagination “is our angelic destiny?

    The dream and our capacity to symbolize it as culture also allows a resonance between us and these other frequencies of consciousness.

    When we dream, our dreams become the royal road not to our unconscious, as Freud would have it, but to the consciousness of all creation. Moreover, traffic on this road flows both ways. In dreaming not only are we open to other vibrations of consciousness, to other realities, to the energies of other beings, they are also open to us.

    Bentov says that animals we encounter in our dreams indicate “that they do reach into [our] level of consciousness.” Notice his language! Bentov is not saying that we dream the animal. Nor is he saying that the animal dreams us.

    Rather he is saying that dreams are the way in which our consciousness and that of animals interact.

    Dreaming is an attunement of different frequencies of consciousness. The dream no more belongs to us than it does to the animal. On the contrary, the dream is the way in which we meet.

    …it is still too limiting a notion, insofar as the unconscious remains tied to human psychology, either as the personality repressed, or as the collective repository of the experiences of our species.

    The unconscious needs to be re-imagined as the consciousness of animals and plants, of minerals and stars, of Angels and atoms. It needs to be freed from the notion that it describes our ignorance about ourselves, and re-imagined as the epiphany of other kinds of consciousness. It needs to be transformed from a way of tuning out all creation to a way of tuning into it.

    The “common uniting element of all creation is consciousness,” Bentov says, “and through this bridge all things are in constant contact.”

    So we need to become comfortable with the thought of the interaction of all creation and even more comfortable with the insight that minerals dream of animals and Angels, just as plants dream of rocks and us.

    I died from minerality and became vegetable; and from vegetativeness I died and became animal.
    I died from animalism and became [wo]man.
    Then why fear disappearance through death?
    Next time I shall die
    Bringing forth wings and feathers like angels;
    After that, soaring higher than angels- What you cannot imagine,
    I shall be that.

    FROM ALEXANDRIA The Order and Beauty of Nature -Vol. 4

    READ Egos, Angels, and The Colors of Nature by Robert D Romanyshyn

  85. Whoa! What the heck is that about?

    RD: Please let us know how your day went. Linda Stender seems like a very deserving candidate.

  86. One last thing, Hillary is my candidate and my 90 year old mother’s. My mother was born before women could vote and we both wanted Hillary so bad – my mother still grieves. We are going to write her in whether they “allow” it or not. My mother wants to vote for her and we WILL.

    As for BO — I have written books on BO – you don’t need to hear it.

    My rage is focused now on the democratic party structure because i want a PARTY FOR THE WORKING CLASS and feminists and the Dem’s are a party of wealthy left elitists who use the working class as the wealthy repubs use the Christian fundamentalists.

    But if we are every to take back our party from the men behind the empty suits, our votes must count. that means primary reform

    OK now I will disappear.

    Poof !

  87. Rd– I knew this was coming. Now we can all really get scared. Really scared. You were right about Rove, RD.


  88. Puma – SF

    What that was about is that RD said gc was from the Green Party and ranted against the Green Party. Then the discussion was about the Green Party! gc was trying to tell us about someone who has done work collecting information about primary reform in the democratic party, who she thought should be heard on PUMA radio. I actually agreed because I read his blog.

    RD replied to my comment, where I tried to explain, – “I’m really sorry but I find Green philosophy tiresome ”

    I think we had a missed opportunity here.


  89. dotcommodity, on July 19th, 2008 at 2:18 pm

    Except, DC, if we voted green, Obama has a better chance of being elected. Either way we PUMAs have lost, and the Dem Party will just be glad to be rid of the unempowered non-Republican Democrats if they win.

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