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Monday: Hits and Misses

There are a couple of posts around the web that got my attention last night. You might have already seen some of them. We have a few hits and a few misses. One is tempted to say, “I told you so” to the middle one but it probably wouldn’t do any good. {{sigh}}

  • Rebecca Traister kind of misses in her Salon piece Why Clinton Voters Say They Won’t Support Obama. The biggest miss is that she assumes that Hillary lost. We don’t believe there was any reason for Hillary to lose. The problem is that the process was flawed, the game was rigged and the superdelegate system failed to give us the stronger candidate. The superdelegates could still give the nomination to Clinton. If FL and MI are counted in full, the delegate count narrows to less than 100 and is statistically insignificant. For whatever reason, supers are not inclined to do this but there is still time for them to change their minds. What we need is a fair and transparent convention. With the DNC unable to pay its convention bills, we can hope they will come around in time to realizing that behaving badly will not open the money spigots. But she’s also totally clueless about whether we’ll come around in November. She thinks we’ll come crawling back because we have no where else to go. It’s all about reproductive freedom. Ok, we went over this last week in The Roe Ruse. The SCOTUS already has enough justices to overturn Roe v. Wade and this will not change unless one of the conservative justices quit, which will be like… never. Anyway, the real issues revolve around business, commerce and civil liberties and we have already seen what Obama feels about privacy in his FISA position. So, please, trust us Rebecca, we’re not coming back. Really.
  • Regarding Obama and FISA, Big Tent Democrat tries to make sense of it John Cole’s mysterious poker metaphor in On FISA, The Media and Poker while Hunter at the Big Orange Cheeto finally has a “Soylent Green is People!” epiphany in Even Barack Obama Thinks You’re Stupid. (Sorry, no link, we’re honoring the strike) Yes, Hunter finally wakes up and smells the coffee. Except, in Hunter’s case, I don’t believe he ever bought the Unity Pony shtick in the first place. He went along to get along. It wasn’t that he loved Obama so much as he absolutely couldn’t stand Hillary for reasons that are probably still a mystery, even to himself. But I suspect it goes something like this: the Kossack buzz words were carefully played, first by Joe Trippi and then by David Axelrod. Oh, yeah, she was an establishment corporate toadying, lobbyist money sucking harlot of the first degree. And she liiiiiiiiiies. But the final straw was that damn Kyl-Lieberman amendment thingy that was a symbolic, no-committment vote that whipped Kossacks into a shrieking, hysterical frenzy and one she no doubt probably felt she had to vote for in order to establish her national security creds. (Do we have a vote for that for Obama? No, we do not. How conveeeenient.) And now, Obama goes out of his way to vote for FISA for I suspect the same reasons that Clinton chose to vote for Kyl-Lieberman: he needs national security creds. So what if it’s your civil liberties in jeopardy? Isn’t winning important to Kossacks? This is apparently where Hunter draws the line, like all the other $&*( Obama campaign pulled during the primary season wasn’t enough. As if using the term ‘racism’ as a weapon against half of the Democratic base wasn’t sufficient reason to be completely disgusted with the arrogant lightweight. I’d say it was better late than never but frankly, as much as Hunter loathes him now, he’s probably going to still vote for him because I’m betting he still thinks Hillary would have been worse. No need to ask for proof of this. Psychological conditioning is complete.
  • Finally, Anglachel gathers up some of Bob Somerby’s recent posts on the death and glorification of Tim Russert, aka Pumpkinhead, in The Heart of Their Culture. I have to admit that I only recently started to notice the Irish Catholic Parochial School Graduate phenomenon at MSNBC. It was pretty clear with Maureen Dowd though. It’s not so much the prudery or the prosecutorial manner in which the MICs do their jobs at MSNBC as much as the obedience and devotion to it. Somerby touches on the intersection of Jack Welch and the MICs only tangentially but they are actually quite harmonious. The rank and yank system that Welch created a way to promote the aggressive employees who excel from the losers who need to be cut free depends on pleasing the person who will ultimately rank you. It encourages slavish devotion and obedience and there’s no better training for that than with the Sisters who subscribe to group punishment and zero tolerance. It makes perfect sense. (And lay off the pearl clutching over the MIC label. My Dad was from a MIC family and they never shied away from the label. Anyways, they always told me that there was a gun in the basement of Saint Joe’s church with my name on it and any time I was ready to join the IRA, I was welcome to it. I’m kidding!, Kidding)

184 Responses

  1. I imagine on Aug. 29 everyone will collectively realize that Obama is a nightmare, and then the media will castigate the Democrats for choosing the weaker candidate over HIllary, asking us how we could have possibly made that decision.

  2. Well, we couldn’t have done it without their help.

  3. Great post, RD. I couldn’t resist adding a snarky comment to Hunter’s post after Obama’s FISA statement came out. God those people are lame. I could see this coming before Obama even declared his candidacy for prez. After I read his diary at DK in 2006, I knew he was nothing but a waffler and appeaser.

    I’m going to repost my comment from down below on the Salon article, which I found silly and almost insulting:

    I’m angry because the result was apparently fixed from the beginning. I’m angry because Howard Dean’s brother ran and organization, DFA, that apparently trained a lot of people to be bullies on the internet and the caucuses and game the system for anybody but Clinton. I’m angry because Donna Brazile had a media megaphone and was allowed to claim neutrality while gaming the system for Obama. I’m angry because superdelegates sold out to the highest bidder. And lots more reasons, but not the ones in the Salon article.

    I never supported Hillary because she was a “historic candidate.” What a laugh. I came around to supporting her because I listened to what she had to say. I realized she was brilliant, strong, tough, a real fighter. I realized she had really connected with people and that she cared about them. I realized she knew the issues inside out and understood how government works. None of that had anything to do with her gender. Yes, I liked the idea of a woman president, but I would have supported a man who had the same qualities she does.

    I started out supporting Edwards. Now I realize he doesn’t hold a candle to Hillary Clinton–not even close. And Obama? He’s a child compared to Hillary. To me she is towering figure who could be a great President. He will be a puppet, another George W. Bush.

  4. I urge everyone to read Somerby’s posts about the Irish Catholic boys club at NBC. He also writes about the Irish effect on others like Maureen Dowd who got slapped yesterday by the Times Public Editor for her sexist treatment of Hillary. I was raised in a large extended rish Catholic family and attended a Jesuit college so I can tell you Somerby is on to something. I, too, had not noticed how pervasive this was at NBC because some of them have names that are not obviously Irish (Brian Williams) and I did not know they were the products of Catholic schools.

    It is very strange to people from one distinct religious/ethnic group having such influence over our public discourse and no one is aware of it. Even more strange to me, though, is that no one seems to be bothered by the fact that 5 of the 9 justices on the Supreme Court are conservative Catholics – Kennedy, Roberts, Alito, Scalia, and Thomas. They aren’t Irish but I would argue it is the Catholic school upbringing and world view that is the more salient factor for all of these guys. To me that is even more disturbing yet there is no discussion about that fact.

  5. traister’s piece was a disaster.

    Not once did Traister come close to getting at the heart of what PUMA is all about — the fact that Clinton was literally robbed of the nomination. Obama had two good weeks — and then three disasterous months. Clinton proved that not only was she the better choice, but in those three months Obama demonstrated conclusively that he was a bad choice.

    PUMAs are mad because the ‘fix was in’ — and that they wuz robbed.

    And I’ve yet to see anyone complain about Bill Clinton — yet Traister treats that as a given.

    And Mark Penn? We’re not mad about Mark Penn. We;re mad AT Mark Penn, but that has nothing to do with anything.

    And finally, we’re not PUMAs because Hillary lost. We’re not even PUMAs because the game was rigged. We’re PUMAs because Barack Obama is a horrible choice to lead this party and the nation.

    I think that most of us dealt with our anger weeks ago — we’re no longer ranting and raving. We’ve taken a cold, hard look at what our choices are, and we’re saying that Obama is not an acceptible choice — not because we’re mad, but because Obama sucks.

  6. Well said, Paul. I totally agree.

  7. I am so damn tired of people like Traister talking to a few Clinton supporters and projecting those answers as what everyone feels and/or thinks.

    It is obvious that Traister hasn’t a clue. We are angry. But we are also focused and waiting. We’re waiting to find out what we can do to take down this corrupt bunch that has hi-jacked our party.

    We won’t sit worshipful while they destroy it from the inside and make a mockery of all we believe as the Republicans did. They let their party be nearly destroyed rather than vote against the people that were destroying it.

    The vacant-eyed worshippers of Obama resemble nothing so much as the vacant-eyed worshippers of Bush. Not that the Bush worshippers for the most part admit to that now. Nope, they never were for him or the war, or having the government spying on us or anything he stood for.

    I suspect in a very short time the Obama worshippers will sober up from their Kool-Aid shots and remorse will set in.

  8. Thanks for summing it up Paul. I hope Traister has gotten that message. I am so sick of the idiots out there who call themselves journalists and yet have no concept of what happened. The press and the Democratic *leadership* are such a joke, except I am not laughing.

  9. Wow, that salon piece is total BS.

  10. Marvelous post, riverdaughter — that Salon piece is a great example of why I canceled my premium membership 6 months ago.

    I’m very curious about why Obama’s lack of job experience is totally ignored. They act like it’s a matter of him running during his first Senate term that’s telling.

    (and it is….)

    But beyond that — they guy has barely held what most of us would call a full time job in his life. And THAT might be an exaggeration of his qualifications.

    This is something that doesn’t show up on any of these lists. But, it’s a deal breaker for most people once they know about it. We’ve got too many horrifyingly serious problems looming. And if Obama is elected who would actually be the boss?

    OK, I’m rambling. Thanks again for the great post. You’ve got my Monday-Morning-Brain awake!

  11. I’m not angry. I’m not mad. Not much passion, just reasoning. I came to support HIllary when there were two left standing and Hillary was the only one discussing issues. My evolution then progressed over just a few months from “either is acceptable” to “if it’s Obama, I’ll probably vote third party” to “the only way to save the Democratic party as I knew it is to vote McCain.” Of course, Ms. Brazile made it easier by telling me I was not part of the “new” Democratic coalition.

  12. Seriously, as of today, the Obama camp no longer needs the Hillary Supporters.

    This morning the NAACP announced that it is now going to target prisoners that have not been convicted of Felonies to sign up to vote. They feel certain that this will help Obama win the election.

    Someone, Somewhere, Somehow help us all!

  13. Sorry, I should have said the Obama camp no longer needs the Hillary Supporters that are not currently incarcerated!

  14. Bob Somerby nails that “group think” perfectly. As someone raised in that very same atmosphere of trust and dogma, he is on to something. A good Irish Catholic never questions authority, never questions the fallibility of the pope, never questions the teaching of the Church for fear of heresy.

    And when was the last time you saw a woman assume any role in the power structure of the Church? Answer: never.

    A combination of that group think is on parade at NBC through their talking heads. Williams, Matthews, Russert, O’Donnell, Buchanan, Noonan, Kearns Goodwin. Murphy, Welch. The ingrained teaching is hard to shake but it rests deep in the psyche. Their Hillary hate was on open display and they felt good about it.

    Somerby is worth reading if anyone cares to examine the whys and wherefores of how that one network has shaped the outcome of this race since its inception.

    As for Jack Welch, well he has been married three times! So much for judgment. But he contributes quite heavily to the Church so all must be forgiven. Quite telling.

  15. OMG you guys!! did you see? the Obama bus guy posted a comment. He seems really apologetic for being so creepy, and asks that we don’t hold it against Barack. He also invites us to watch a video he made in which Jesus endorses Obama and Satan endorses McCain

  16. Well Salon has another one out today:

    Why Clinton Voters Will Come Back to the Fold


    I got my first troll yesterday. He declared I was a serious head case for supporting Clinton over Obama. I took great delight in sending him to the spam folder.

  17. I think the meme “they don’t need us” is weapon used to make us discouraged. I won’t ever type those words again.

    You know what Obama and his supporters fear the most? They fear that PUMA’s will vote for McCain.

    I disavow the usage of a meme that is part of a PYSOPS program to render me powerless with despair.

    PUMAs, your country needs you. Vero, it does.


  18. And I always have to remind people that Nancy Keenan, head of NARAL “Pro-choice” America and endorser of Joe Lieberman and Barack Obama, is also a devout Irish Catholic.

    Of course, she claims she separates her work from her life, but she DOES get pressure from her Bishop! LOL!

    Link about Nancy at FiredogLake

  19. I agree with RD and Paul on the Salon piece by Traister. The only thing good I can say about it is that she isn’t as clueless as Wally Shapiro.

    As a former Balloon Juice regular, I want to comment on John Cole’s ratrionalizations to defend Obama on FISA:

    Cole has no facts to base his argument on, and in fact he assumes Obama is lying. Obama said he endorsed the compromise/capitulation, but Cole assumes he was forced into it.

    Glenzilla does a great takedown on the dishonest arguments made in favor of the sell-out, so I won’t repeat them, but the bill was not only unnecessary it is politically unpopular.

    This was a sell-out to the telcos, and Obama was in on it.

    He flip-flopped on campaign finance and NAFTA, then sold out on FISA. Will he ever take a principled stand on anything?

    SASQ – No

  20. GCH:

    That dude gets creepier and creepier.

  21. Nooooooo:

    George Carlin dead.

    Now there was an icon who contributed so greatly to our society. However I’m guessing we won’t have non-stop coverage about him for the next week.


  22. I’m half Lithuanian and half Irish. I was educated by Ursuline nuns and Jesuits. (And thus I can say, vero, Obama’s motto is dog latin.)

    I’m familiar with the MIC phenomenon. I don’t know that I totally agree with Somerby, but he’s raising some very important points.

    Thanks for bringing his work to our attention.


  23. Why did I end up in the spam filter?

  24. Too much gristle.

  25. Arabella, you have it right. They NEED us. And they ain’t getting us. I’m still angry when I think about it too much, but that’s not what’s driving me. What’s driving me is the need to make sure this never happens again.

    The corruption, the wheeling and dealing, the fixing, all for a candidate of little worth, that’s what makes this important to me. The misogyny is also a factor. I’m damned if I’ll let that stand without speaking up about it.

    As I said in the thread on the graduation, I think the Salon article was really off target. I will not be held hostage by the threat of control over my reproduction, not by the dems, not by the republicans. I will not return to the fold because of vague noises about the Supreme Court.

  26. That Salon piece is complete garbage. Did she even talk to people or did she just observe us from afar sort of like animal researchers?

    First, she won the popular vote and the DNC had to stifle the voices of two states to let their guy win. If Obama had won fair and square, there wouldn’t be a PUMA movement.

    Second, we’re not mad at Bill.

    Third, we don’t like Dean because he’s incompetent and a hypocrite. The DNC is broke, he can’t afford the convention, and because of MI and FL, his 50 state strategy is a farce.

  27. Good morning. Interesting post. Could someone please tell me exactly who the term “Kossack” refers to? Thanks.

  28. Interesting thought RD. This election for the first time in 30 years has divided me and my dear hubby who is also my best friend.
    He is quite a religious person: part of his odd charm, an intellectual with a dry sense of humour….and Catholic!

    huh. And there is an unforgiving Clinton anger there, directed at her husband after Monica…

  29. Today will be interesting. Many of the Oborg are upset about FISA.

    If, as I expect, Obama votes for it as-is with telco immunity in it, will they rationalize it away like Cole or get angry like Hunter?

  30. Kossack is a term for the followers of little lord kos at the Big Orange Cheeto

  31. dotcom – What planetary system do you live in?

    Nobody I know is “mad” at Bill. I notice that your tagline in other blogs is usually an anti-McCain factoid. Forgive me if I’m wrong.

    Do you have an agenda here?


  32. gary: Where did the nutcase post? I guess we have to concede they read this blog regardless of how we feel. Apparently we are not so “invisible” after all.

  33. I love the salon article. It completely gets it wrong, and it is propaganda that actually works in our favor. If any potential PUMAs read it, it will only make them more angry, and any Obama supporters who read it will think that the PUMA phenomenon is nothing and will blow over. Let them underestimate us. It will only make them error.

    “Get over it” is the extent of Obama’s out-reach

  34. When I subjected myself to the Obama campaign in May of ’04, my only objective was to get a democrat back in the White House. The funny thing was, when I resigned from his campaign in August, I still had the same objective. I thought he was completely and totally unelectable.

    Yesterday, I wrote about the thing that pulled me in and I know now that being southern played a huge part in it. Guilt.

    I have never voted without checking out someone’s resume. When I checked his out, I had to admit that I had made a mistake.

    What I cannot understand at this point is why are they all still fawning after all Obama’s flip flops and implying that we will get in line with them. Their absolute, undying devotion is completely unrealistic.

    Are some people just incapable of admitting they made a mistake in judgment?

  35. Pat, youtube shows you who is linking to your video, so I assume he came here that way.

  36. About the fascist symbols like the seal – I am unsure whether some artist is making fun of the Obama Movement.

    do a google – image search for obey giant – that face has been all over the SF Bay Area for a long time.

    That underground graffiti artist designed the original Orwellian propoganda poster with it’s obvious totalitarian overtones. I thought he was being subversive: you know, this one:

    google images shephard fairey obama

    Now look at the new image from this artist:

  37. Kim, Yes

  38. After reading the comments to John Cole’s post, my take was that if the Obama supporters made a list of every reason they support Obama, and he came out in opposition to those reasons or proved them untrue, they would simply make a new list and deny that there ever was a different one.

  39. Kim,

    Where did you write all this? I went over to your blog last night, but didn’t see a new post. Was it on one of the posts here? I’d like to read what you wrote.

  40. I personally believe that the DNC has been cowed by the Obama campaign. Threats of “blood in the streets” and other strong arm tactics that have bubbled to the surface somehow convince me that some members lost control over the agenda months ago.

    With thugs like Jesse Jackson, Jr. making calls and implying threats to older members such as John Lewis, no wonder the DNC remained silent for the most part.

    We have seen elements of that thuggery online so it would be a no brainer to assume that these same tactics were employed over there. Look at what happened to Tavis Smiley for withholding his support in his own community.

    For this to actually unfold there had to be some element of complicity and for that I lay the blame squarely at the feet of Nancy and Howard. But I would not be surprised to hear of some level of intimidation being employed to muscle the others into line. Hillary may not have been the only victim.

  41. Hello all. RD, thanks for pointing the way to some pieces worth looking if only to see the “misses”.

    Here is a message I am having a hard time communicating, although I did write a post about it. Basically, I keep getting comments and questions as to why no debt meter anywhere, for showing total contributions to retire Senator Clinton’s debt. The post I wrote explains why Senator Clinton can’t have that on her website. And it explains, I thought, why I, for example, can only tally contributions that come in through my link to the Campaign web site.

    How do we get the message out that if people want a tally they have to focus where they donate?

    A friend suggested I write to bloggers asking them to add code that would steer people to my site, but I would feel obnoxious for asking that.

    Advice? If you have some, please send it to heidi59 at gmail dot com…

  42. Here was Cole’s original post on the FISA sell-out:

    Obama can not snap his fingers and magically change the minds of hundreds of Democrats elected by people other than Barack Obama, and because of it, he does not deserve the votes of the netroots.

    Also, compromise means getting everything you want, not just shifting the debate and working to remove portions of a bill that you find objectionable. Compromise to the netroots is much like George Bush’s definition of compromise. Who would have thunk it.

    Additionally, Obama apparently hates the Constitution.

    The last thing I learned today is that the ideal candidate goes down with the ship. It does not matter if that candidate was right on the issue all along, did everything he could to win the fight, but that he must go down with the ship. It does not matter if the fight is already over and the battle lost, real candidates try to maximize the loss by inflicting political pain on themselves.

    You all make me cranky. Enjoy President McCain, whiners.

    I responded: “Leaders lead”

    Cole replied back with:

    Yeah, Hillary’s opposition to this was vital. Piss off, wanker. Aren’t you supposed to be at Riverdaughter’s and NoIQ telling us Obama is scary and McCain really has your best interests at heart?

    As you can tell, i’m very popular over there. It must be my sunny disposition

  43. Obama’s supporters are like Bush’s 30 percenters. They will never stop supporting Obama. It is unfortuante that they have, at this stage of the game, a disproportional impact on public perception.

    Most people are not thinking about the election yet. McCain is a sly old lion. He is just watching Obama make himself unelectable. McCain doesn’t seem to address Obama himself – he uses his spokesmen.

    McCain’s spokesperson has already called one of Obama actions “ridiculous.” Not “threatening” not “unpatriotic” but “ridiculous.” That’s the way to play it. Do not attribute power to your opponent.



  44. Doesn’t anyone else find it misogynistic that so many in the media seem to dismiss Clinton’s candidacy as simply being a historic candidate and nothing more? Here was one hell of a candidate, who happened to be a woman, and her supporters were pissed that the media was hellbent on knocking her out due to their hysterical anti-female hatred. The media–not her supporters–were gender-obsessed (and remain so, it seems).

    And if any candidate is the “historic” candidate and nothing more, it’s Obama.

  45. They are projecting their obsession with race onto us and claiming we care only about gender.

  46. I lit them up at Left Coaster yesterday when I suggested that Paradox would be happier as a PUMA. He didn’t respond, but a bunch of foul-mouthed Obots (is there any other kind?) sure did.

    I don’t see any reason to support or vote for unqualified candidates.

    “Party loyalty” and “better than McCain” aren’t good enough reasons.

  47. Hi Arabella,

    No, I am a climate policy voter: my sig says that.

    I didn’t have any agenda other than getting the best Democrat in this year till the Obama campaign tactics drove me to look at him more closely, in Feb and March.

    And the debates decided me, Hillary is the best Democratic presidential candidate we have had in a long time, has far and away the best grasp of good climate policy (and all other policy!) – and she is best able to beat McCain – and best able to stare down the rightwing noisemachine (O’Reilly interview!) and her supporters are best able to detect RW bullshit and ignore it.

    McCains eco voting record was my original sig at various sites like grist.com and openleft. McCain is worse than even Obama on the environment.

    But I do not believe Obama can beat him. Or should. Democrats should not use totalitarian methods to move candidates into power.

    The kinds of discerning thinkers I loved dailykos for are here now. I need you. Even more now that my meatworld best friend is unable to discuss politics with me!

  48. They are projecting their obsession with race onto us and claiming we care only about gender.

    Bravo, plural. You’ve nailed it.


  49. Davidson:

    I have to partially disagree. While sexism and misogyny played a role in the campaign, I thing old-fashioned Clinton Derangement Syndrome was the primary motivation for those who opposed Hillary.

    They hated Bill, they hate Hillary, and if they get a chance they’ll hate Chelsea too.

    How else do you explain the “feminists” who opposed her?

  50. dotcom – Thank you for your response.


  51. myiq- That is what I am getting. My former boss said he’s a democrat so you have too vote for him. My response:

    No I don’t.

  52. I guarantee that if elected Obama will do next to nothing to restore those rights that Bush co-opted in the name of “the war on terror”. FISA being the first public policy he has chosen to ignore. And don’t be surprised if he does not begin employing his own “signing statements” since the congress did nothing to obstruct Bush when they had the chance.

    His administration will be nothing more than the same old crapola we have lived under for 8 years. The “power” is too tempting to want to change that.

    However, I am also on record that if he does go against what I have predicted, I am more than willing to subject myself to a worthy punishment. But I am not going to lose sleep over it since I do not see that happening.

  53. Kim – That’s the point I keep harping on. I will not vote for any old Democrat. I’ve held my nose too many times.

    I will vote for McCain. The more people say this, the better.

    Biggest threat to Obama = PUMA’s voting for McCain.


  54. If the Democrats want my vote they need to nominate a qualified candidate. While I think Hillary is far and away the best qualified candidate, there are others who are more than minimally qualified for the job.

    Chris Dodd, Joe Biden, John Edwards, Al Gore, Wes Clarke, to name a few.

    Obama is UNQUALIFIED

  55. The fact that Hillary is a woman had nothing to do with my choice to support her. The fact that Obama is bi-racial has nothing to do with my choice to support McCain.

    I could care less for “historical candidacies”. What an ego trip to vote because you think you are making history. Those that I think are especially disgusting are the ones that believe we are righting the wrongs done to Black America by voting for Obama. It is all about ego and feeling good about themselves.

    ****Attention: SMUG alert *********************

    I don’t care if they whine and blame me for Obama losing. I will leave my Hillary and McCain bumper stickers on until 2012.

  56. What’s historical about Obama? We’ve elected con men and liars before.

    Obama is only something like 7% black. In fact he bears a stunning resemblance to his paternal grandfather, including the ears.

  57. Exactly, when I finally came out of the fog and started watching the debates, I was thrilled to see we actually had a decent pool of candidates. But the rock star was also strategically placed front and center. How he got the front and center placement as a junior senator still baffles me. But I suppose it shouldn’t, after all the fix was in even then.

  58. Exactly, when I finally came out of the fog and started watching the debates, I was thrilled to see we actually had a decent pool of candidates. But the rock star was also strategically placed front and center. How he got the front and center placement as a junior senator still baffles me. But I suppose it shouldn’t, after all the fix was in even then.

  59. They are all repeating the “official truthiness” they did to Gore.
    For years his name didn’t come up anywhere without “who lost to George Bush” – sometimes “narrowly”.
    I notice thet do this less these days.
    Repeating a lie often enough doesn’t make it true.
    Not to me.

  60. Have to wonder why the O’Bots like Cole are so angry. Their guy won, didn’t he? They should be happy, not angry.

    Equating this site with NoQ is ridiculous.

  61. The reason I am opposed to telco immunity is because it is probably the only avenue we have to discover what Bush & Co have really been up to re: domestic spying.

    The original FISA law was so expansive I don’t see why they felt the need to completely go outside of it.

    And as the “Enzo the Baker” incident at Ashcroft’s hospital room showed, they were doing something even hard-core conservative Republicans found unacceptable. It wasn’t spying on suspected foreign terrorists.

    I suspect they were straight-up spying on Americans, especially Democrats, for blackmail purposes.

    Look at the political prosecutions and US attorney firings. They were trying to do what J. Edgar Hoover did in the 50’s and 60’s – spy on domestic opponents and use what they found to manipulate Congressmen and others, or to destroy opponents they couldn’t control.

  62. As long as the Yahoos keep getting their political updates from the Daily Show and Olbermann, nothing will change their locked tight minds. These voters depend upon these shows to educate them as to who is up or who is down. A shift in perception from either show would create chaos within that community since it would require having to sort out and think for themselves.

    Those nasty bloggers online see themselves as the next Jon Stewart, honing their “comedic” skills on the opposition. This is the same generation that is fixated on American Idol
    and Survivor.

    Their intellectual capacity is made up of soundbites and Myspace videos. However, the advertising market is aimed directly at this demographic. They are made to feel far more important than they actually are.

  63. Have to wonder why the O’Bots like Cole are so angry. Their guy won, didn’t he? They should be happy, not angry.

    Equating this site with NoQ is ridiculous.

  64. Riverdaughter,
    I posted an essay from William under your “about us” page on June 21st. He would like for you to consider it for publication. There are others as well. Is there a better way to contact you? Thank you.

  65. Mawm:

    My support for Hillary has nothing to do with her gender. The “historic” nature of her candidacy is just icing on the cake.

    The same is true for my opposition to Obama. The simplest way to look at it is ask how would I feel if Obama was a white male Senator with exactly the same record.

    I would say he was way too inexperienced to be President, and that’s just based on his resume, that’s not looking at other factors, like his unprincipled campaign.

  66. Pat Johnson – I am a bit more optimistic than you are. The reason I am is that Obama’s campaign has no idea how ridiculous he will look to American voters.

    Riduculous. Infantile. Immature. Babyish. Thin-skinned. Egg-headed.

    People are already using these words.

  67. The boyz (and Dowd) at MSNBC may be Catholic, but remember that Catholic voters (not pundits) went overwhelmingly for Hillary. It’s the patriarchal Catholics–Kennedys and Kerrys, etc., the father worshippers, like Obama himself–who went for Obama. But there are many other Catholics who understood that Hillary Clinton represented the social justice Catholics stand for, the support for the working class that has been a part of social Catholicism, and more. Obama’s totalitarian tendencies frighten me. I see from this post they are beginning to worry some of his supporters, but many other of his supporters seem perfectly happy to allow it. Clinton has a sense of responsible use of power, and that it lies with the people. It is hard to believe the most qualified candidate won’t be nominated, in all likelihood, but I am no longer as angry as I was. I am determined to make sure Obama doesn’t become president, but I am also determined to make this into something positive. PUMA is making people think about their votes. This is wonderful!

  68. They are angry because they have never heard the word “no” before. These 20 somethings have been praised and glorified just for being.

    Opposition becomes personal to them. And opposition carries the element that perhaps you may be wrong in your choice. That must be eliminated for that person to feel good about themselves. The thought that “everybody agrees with me” has to be reinforced. Otherwise, there may be room for doubt and we cannot have that.

  69. Myiq: And you don’t think CDS always had something to with Hillary? She was always hated much more so than Bill ever was and he was, in part, hated for having married her.

    Look at the state of girls and women throughout this world, including the US (e.g., the global rape slave trade, hate crimes, normalization and open celebration of misogyny, etc.), and it seems quite clear how intensely entrenched this bigotry remains to the point where it’s still grossly underestimated. And since bigotry is, of course, irrational, you’re question about feminists being opposed to Clinton goes out the window, especially when just so many engaged in gendered attacks.

    I will always believe misogyny to be the ultimate factor because it was so damn obvious (e.g., slurs, hate speech, etc.), especially when you realize there was just no contest between her and Obama–at all–across the board, whether it was policy, qualifications, or electability.

  70. Can you guys go respond to this posting at HuffPo before all the Obamabots descend? Thanks


  71. “CDS always had something to with Hillary? She was always hated much more so than Bill ever was and he was, in part, hated for having married her.”

    Yes, exactly.

  72. Cole is always angry about something.

    He is a former Republican and a 2-time supporter of Bush. He only joined the Democratic party late last year.

    His archives are very revealing. He was apoplectic when Kerry accused Dick Cheney of being a chickenhawk back in 2004. He is a self-admitted victim of CDS, and he only began to turn against Bush in 2005-2006.

    Most of his posts about the primary have been anti-Hillary rather than pro-Obama.

    But that’s pretty common for the OFB sites. They were motiviated more by CDS than Obamaphilia.

  73. chimera: I think what Somerby was attempting to illustrate is that these men are all products of their age and time. Most of us free thinking Catholics have rejected much of what the Church preaches in terms of dogma.

    We believe in birth control, we believe in a women’s right to choose, we don’t buy into the infallibility of the Pope. We use our God given right to free choice sprinkled with commonsense. This is a direct challenge to the hierarchy. This is why you see so many empty seats at Mass each week. It was usually the women who ushered those kids into the pews each week.

    Catholics still encapsulated by these teachings, i.e., the MSNBC group think, are essentially judgmental. Matthews for one has no problem saying exactly what he thinks. The others being a little more circumpect but the discussions usually follow the same path.

  74. Gary, you got linked to at NoQuarter

  75. CDS is by definition irrational. I remember back in 1992 arguing with GOP types who HATED Bill Clinton with a passion.

    The GOP was talking impeachment before he was even sworn in.

    I never got the impression that Hillary was the reason they hated Bill, it seemed more they other way around back then.

    He is the only Democrat to win two terms in the White House since FDR, he was enormously popular when he left office, and he is hated by Democrats?

    That’s irrational.

  76. I think the thing that freaks out power men about Hillary (and Bill) is that she has always assumed she was equal, was outspoken, AND Bill didn’t TRY to control her.

    Those men in power demand a certain supportiveness from wives that does not appear to be a two-way street. I have always sensed the FEAR had to do with how they would handle their own wives and daughters if they acted like Hillary.

    She will fight. It looks like women in power right now find “other ways” of getting things done besides a stare-down.

    Not voting for obama has become an act of principle for me, I’m not watching the news and I’m not changing my mind. He can make any promise – those promises won’t matter any more to me than they do to him.

  77. “Obama is only something like 7% black. In fact he bears a stunning resemblance to his paternal grandfather, including the ears.”

    Arabella, is this true? From where is the information that his father was mostly white? Is it reliable? Or is this a joke & I’m just missing it?

  78. Exactly, and we are not coming back, the fools forget who they are speaking of, of all demographics in the electorate we KNOW we have Choices and we will use that ability to vote against the Dem Party Puppet and his unethical entourage. To believe that we will be the their victims voting against our interest is just never going to happen we are informed and we are not Party poodles, wrong crowd to have cheated, what I still find amazing is they do not seem to grasp that we believe they are crooks who by rigging the race stole our money and time for them to put forth and unqualified, inexperienced, no track record party puppet a face, at a time when our country has begun to decline and is steeped in a lack of ethical Leadership and demands great leadership to turn the direction. And that’s the Democratic Party’s eal betrayal AGAIN, the liberal arrogance of the Kennedy’s and the Pelosi’s putting their cause, their power before the People again. Me I’m voting for One Dem in Nov. and that’s for a State Government Office a fine qualified, experienced knowledgeable Democrat every other office I will vote Republican or Independent no way I want Pelosi having more power with large margins that’s the real threat one Party rule from a Party that cheated their own Base.

  79. Pat Johnson – Thank you for explaining the whole “Catholic thing” so well. The problem I have with Somerby is that he telling one part of a larger story. The “product of a different age and time” is important.

    I’m not saying that I disagree with Somerby. I will say that I agree with you!


  80. Discussions of Obama’s ethnic lineage run the risk of making us look racist.

    Who cares if he’s black, brown, asian, white or martian?

    It’s the content of his character, not the color of his skin that matters.

    Character, and his lack of a resume.

  81. I got stuck in the spam filter again!

  82. “Obama is only something like 7% black. In fact he bears a stunning resemblance to his paternal grandfather, including the ears.”

    Arabella, is this true? From where is the information that his father was mostly white? Is it reliable? Or is this a joke & I’m just missing it?

    Sorry! My bad. I meant his maternal grandfather – his mother’s father.

  83. Pat:

    If you read Altemeyer’s on-line book about authoritarians, you’ll see that attacking any and all opposition is SOP for them.

    Obama’s biggest fans are fauxgressive authoritarians.

  84. Hillary has kept her dignity intact throughout this painful farce of a primary. I see more and more cracks in that glass ceiling.

  85. Let me see If I can reword this to avoid the spam filter:

    Discussions of Obama’s ethnic lineage run the risk of making us look like bigots.

    Who cares if he’s black, brown, asian, white or martian?

    It’s the content of his character, not the color of his skin that matters.

    Character, and his lack of a resume.

  86. Heres Hillary First Appearance Back
    Shes Back!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5adBv1kEpE&eurl

  87. I am looking for a cite about Obama’s ancestry. I have read that in Africa Obama’s father was considered only part black. Obama senior was “mainly” arabic or mideastern according to some sources.I don’t understand the nuances of how Africans view race. It is a complex subject.

    While Obama’s ancestry doesn’t matter to me, his incompetence certainly does.

  88. I agree with myiq2xu. Please delete my posts on the topic.

  89. Mawm: I left my a posting. Hope I sounded coherent. It is now in the “moderation” basket over there. I will check back in a few minutes to see if it was approved.

  90. BTD at TL has a post linking to NYT about The Precious’ ties to the ethanol industry.

    Why couldn’t they publish this stuff 6 months ago?

    SASQ – They were waiting until he was the (presumptuous) nominee

  91. myiq2x: Authoritarianism is alive and well. All you have to do is turn on the Trinity Broadcasting Network and listen to the drivel these “pastors” spew forth. Then look at those poor souls sitting in the megachurch and the look of reason on their faces has all but disappeared.

    They send money, money, money, because Pastor So and So said it was going to get them a place in heaven. Of course, Pastor So and So is living like a king at their expense but this too can all be explained away.

    Free thinkers are cast in the role of the “devil”. That is why there is so much vituperative bile being issued at us. They view us as evil.

    Authoritarianism can be found in all places of society. People prefer someone else doing their thinking for them.

  92. Mawm: They posted me over at Huff Po. Check it out and see if I made any sense. You know how I get when riled.

  93. I highly recommend Bob Altemeyer’s work to everyone.

    It’s easy reading, extremely interesting and informative, it’s available online (read or download pdf) and best of all it’s FREE!

    He wrote it with the current GOP primarily in mind, but it really is relevent to understanding Obamanation.

  94. Pat:

    Do you have a link to Zsa Zsa’s Huff-n-Puff?

  95. Mawm: I am posted over there as MizJ.

  96. I’ve looked at Altemeyer’s work. It’s pretty dang impressive. I’m not sure that I totally understand what he’s saying yet. Good stuff.


  97. In response to Obama’s claim that Republicans will use race to stoke
    fear, Lt. Col Allen West, candidate for Congress in Florida’s 22
    District issued this release: (Clarice Feldman)

    “My advice to Senator Obama is to run as a Man and Leader, and the
    American people will evaluate you as such, not as a victim. This is a
    Presidential race, based solely on a capacity to lead the United States
    of America. It is not about skin tone…however, perhaps we should come
    to expect these immature statements.

    It also seems rather humorous that the Presidential candidate who was
    supposed to be such a “uniter” and transcend race is the one talking
    about it the most. If Senator Obama was confident in his abilities and
    character, he would not need to create a crutch for failure. Senator
    Obama has just tipped his hand, any criticism of him and his policies
    will be directly attributed to racism. I congratulate Senator Obama for
    taking race relations in America back some 30 years.” Lt. Col Allen West

  98. myiq2u: Scroll up under Mawm’s post at 10:19am. That is the fastest and easiest way to get there.

  99. Oh my, are we in trouble. Over at TL, there is a post about Obama and his corn ethanol ties. These young Dems seem to think our only way to get off coal is to go nuclear. This is BS. Wind, solar and geothermal, not to mention retiring the combustible engine is the direction we should go in. jesus, even Al Gore is against nuclear. But now we have two pro-nuclear candidates. I tell you this was one of my biggest reasons for supporting Hill. She wasn’t going to go there.

  100. Traister covers a lot of ground in her article, and makes some good points — but is completely patronizing throughout. Like Hillary supporters simply haven’t thought this through. Really?

    Nowhere does she mention anything about the vast difference in experience, competence and vision between Hillary and BO.

    Nowhere does she mention this simple, immutable fact: Obama is not QUALIFIED to be president, and has done nothing to give us a reason to trust him with the office.

    However much I disagree with McCain on some issues, he makes makes the grade on both these counts.

    I’d so much rather vote for Hillary. But if she is not the Dem nominee, as an American I am left with no choice: it has to be McCain.

    And then Hillary!!

  101. Pat, that was great. I like the idea of going on their turf and making comments.

    I love “the roar of dissent”

  102. The religion-sponsored authoritarian nature of the commentary by so many political pundits has been evident for decades. I was raised in a very controlling religious atmosphere, and my closest friends and most helpful advisers were always Catholics. They could and did sympathize with the heavy hand of religious guilt laid upon one’s head at all times. Even the most liberal thinking of these people never rejected the patriarchal control of the church. It was natural to them, and it certainly appears to be the same for the justices on the Supreme Court and the t.v. talking heads. Robert Novak, as a Catholic convert, seemed to be the quintessential example of religious belief shaping political outlook, although his extreme political conservatism probably influenced his choice of religion. In any case, this is hardly an inclusive group, reflective of the country at large, which controls and influences our laws at the highest levels and political commentary reaching a lot of American homes. I am leery of the appeal that an authoritarian like Obama has for the over-controlling politicos; my caution increases in proportion to their rising levels of approval. I keep thinking of the poem, “Ozymandias”, Shelley’s wonderful sonnet, which addresses hubris and the inevitable fall of the mighty. And “Ozymandias for President” just doesn’t do it for me.

  103. Lt. Col Allen West gives us an idea of how McCain will handle Obama.

    At this point, I think Obama is trying to provoke racist attacks from people. So far, nobody is falling into his trap. I credit Hillary for setting the tone. The grown ups not only call his bluff, they make Obama look childish. And ridiculous.

  104. Well. should we be grateful for “slight new understanding”? I suppose so. Not only are “we” not coming back, but we are going to rewrite the DNC rules and have them ready for the next time — right PUMA’s, right, JustSayNoDealers? We don’t sit around and bitch and wait — we move — so that something like this farce and fraud will never be perpetrated on the American people again. Can we put Dean and his brother in chains?

    Arabella Trefoil, take a look at broncosforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=10607. There is alot of background information on the only UNQUALIFIED AND ILLEGITIMATE CANDIDATE. Kenneth Lamb states that the Kenyan government oficially classifies BO’s grandfather, Barack Hussein Obama (the first for our interest), as ARAB AFRICAN. “True Negro tribal members of western Kenya where his father was born have Christian names, not Arabic.” Grandfather naming father BHO, Sr establishes “ethnic identity in Africa. He may live among African tribes, “but he is not one of them”; he not Negro. If this is true then our BHO is
    50% caucasian
    43.75 Arabic
    6.25% African Negro from his grandmother
    You can do further research yourself.

  105. I was just reading the comments to Wally Shapiro’s companion article to Traister’s.

    PUMA’s don’t seem to agree with him, and are outspoken about it.

    Skip the article, read the comments.

  106. I am getting so tired of entering the polling booth wearing a Hazmat suit to vote for a candidate who stinks! Thought this year would be different but oh no, another loser in opposition with another loser!

  107. ChumpedDemocrat:

    As I said before, discussions of Obama’s ethnicity are irrelevant and have no place here.

    Obama supporters will cite things like that as evidence we are bigots.

  108. Mawm: Fasten your seatbelts, as Bette Davis would say, it is going to be a bumpy night. They are going on the attack. No dissent allowed. I was mildly surprised I was allowed through. I see we are still being called racist. All I can say is if that is their best shot the blow has lost impact.

  109. I’m not conviced Obama is a better candidate than McCain.

  110. Barack’s “White Folks” Tape…Pass it on to the swing states before it gets scrubbed from youtube, like some other ones seem to be “lost”

  111. here’s my response to the TRAISTER article on salon.com they wrote on PUMAS … the link is there and I wish you’d go disabuse the writer on why were NOT voting for Obama …

    thank you


    ( It’s basically my TOP 10 reasons I’m not voting for Obama in response to some nonsense listed about the PUMA movement on salon. Number 10 is a great link to a youtube called LIAR!)

  112. I don’t care what he says about white folks, what his ethnicity is, or where he goes to church. I care about his judgment, his history on policy, his resume.

    As far as I can see, he has shown poor judgment, he has no history, nor a resume.

  113. jjmtacoma——–exactly.

    I think it is about power also, but power and insecurity.
    Have noticed for years how insecure men tend to marry women who are subservient to them . Also, that these same men tend to be blowhards–usually right wing. I realize that I’m generalizing here and obviously this doesn’t apply in all cases,but it does for the ones I’ve observed. Did anyone else find it odd or telling that Russert never seemed to mention his mother, or did I miss that?

  114. Kim: Perfect summarization of why we vote NO.

  115. kc: His Mom and Dad divorced and she moved to FL if I remember correctly from his book. Seems as though he had a better relationship with Big Russ. Not sure if the Mom remarried or not.

  116. Did e’erybody get that email from Hillary just now? It has a “special thank you” on it, but I can’t watch it because of a slow net connection. Anybody?

  117. Nothing so far. I will doublecheck. I did receive one last week however. Maybe the same one.

  118. thanks, Pat. I didn’t read the book. Sorry he’s passed and all, but I have never been a Russert fan. It always seemed to me that just asking questions based on quoting candidates was lazy–I mean, look it up and use it for your question doesn’t seem like much work to me.

  119. Mawm: 65 responses so far over at HuffPo. Our voices are getting through.

  120. Wow! Even John Cole thinks Traister’s article is bad.

    The comments have just started, but the thread will be interesting.

    I’m guessing most BJ’ers won’t agree with Cole.


  121. Pat it seems there are more of us than them.

  122. Kim, there was a little bit of tag teaming over there but you nailed it with your comments. I am so sick to death of the racist rants. It seems it is the best they can do to defend him.

  123. Count Us Out Blog

    The former first lady endorsed Obama, urged her supporters to rally
    behind him and is scheduled to campaign with him later this week.

    But her husband has not publicly endorsed the presumptive Democratic
    nominee to succeed President George W. Bush. Asked by journalists when
    he might do so, Clinton smiled and shook hands with spectators without
    acknowledging he heard the question.

    Well, they really can’t stop till they’ve emptied the till can they?

  124. I hope Hillary comes down with a strong case of laryngitis and is unable to say anything. And I hope this case of laryngitis lasts for a few months.

    As for Bill, good for him! Why should he endorse someone who race baited and made every attempt to tarnish his presidency. Come to Martha’s Vineyard, Bill. Relax on the beach, take walks, read, dine, sail, enjoy the sunsets here in MA. You do not need Mr. Empty Suit. He needs you.

  125. Pat, wow I came back to look at the comments on HuffPO. I can’t believe ho wclueless they are. They really believe we are all racists.

    One guy even told me that he wouldn’t stop believing I was a racist unless I could prove it.

    I laughed out loud.

    I am starting to think that Obama will be doomed because they are too arrogant to see what the reality is. I hope they keep calling us racist, because it is really doing a good job to keep us angry.

  126. I’m delighted to hear that Bill feels no obligation to campaign for this race-baiting sexist fraud. And I sincerely hope that HRC finds it necessary to devote ALL of her time to the important work of representing her constituents in the Senate.

    “What’s historical about Obama? We’ve elected con men and liars before.” — Arabella Trefoil

    LOLOL. Perfect.

  127. Mawm:

    As far as I am concerned, we don’t have to prove anything.

    Let them believe whatever they want. They will anyway.

  128. I’m not crawling back for choice, so Traister can shove it. We’ve always been so smug about how the Rethugs would never actually let abortion rights get settled because it energizes their base — well, look in the mirror, fellow libs. Letting choice hang by a fucknig thread has been the outright strategy of the Dems as well, so they can shit all over women, treat us like garbage, participate in the symbolic sutee of one of the most devoted public servants in my lifetime, and then threaten us with the Choice Boogeyman. “Can’t walk away, can you girls?” they can crap all over us, and still be assured that they’ll have our votes.

    NOT THIS TIME. FUCK YALLZ — if we don’t slap down the Dems and slap them down hard, we’ll never cont for a hill of turds in politics in this country again. Choice will always be hanging by a thread, and the pay gap will hover at its current one-penny-every-two-and-a-half-years rate of advance.

    We need to kick that goddamned party in the teeth so hard their heads ring, so that they never try to threaten and starve us again. We need to make the investment of four years of McCain to ensure fifty years of being taken seriously. It’s like any advancement in life — you go into debt for a little while, for a bigger return in the future.

  129. I also have to laugh bleakly at the MIC designation — my family is Italian Catholic, and there’s always been a severe disconnect between the catholicism as practiced by the Irish and that practiced by us. Grimnessm conformity, and sexism was never quite our thing — bits and pieces, but not generally. It was alwyas “kiss the ring, whatever, honey did you pick up the birth contrl pills on the way home from church?” and men smoking their cigars out on the front step because their wives would kill them if they smoked the things in the house. Men didn’t go into the kitchen on Sundays not because they didn’t have to, but because the women would throw them the hell out if they tried. That was our territory; youg et the hell out and get back in that living room.

    And I don’t even need to touch the Mary idolatry in the Italian Catholic church. Jesus, yeah yeah, nice boy … but they fall to their knees in front of the Blessed Mother.

    We’re a real different breed … I don’t think grimness and deprivation go over well when your ancestors invented the pig-out and the hot tub …

  130. RD-I would be happy to chip in for you to upgrade your site since you have become so wildly popular. I don’t think I’m alone in this offer. It would be great to have threaded comments. By the time I get through the comments, I have forgotten who I wanted to reply to. You have really started something that we all want to be a part of. FWIW.

  131. WTF???

    Not all Democrats falling for Obama
    By BEN EVANS and SAM HANANEL – Jun 12, 2008

    “Rep. Rahm Emanuel of Illinois, a Democratic House leader who helped orchestrate the party’s strategy for winning control of Congress in 2006, argues against reading too much into the holdouts. He said most of them always stay out of national politics and that the party is generally unified around Obama.

    “They’re just going to stick to their knitting,” he said. “It’s not that they’re anti-Obama.”

    Is it too early to start drinking?

  132. Catholic Parochial School Graduates, the Supreme Court & can anybody say Chicago, home to the clandestine Opus Dei??

  133. I don’t knit, but I do know how to say


    “Just Say No Deal”

    Does that work for you Emanuel?

  134. Wait to your kids end up in Iraq or Iran burning their butts off or worse.
    A response to one of my postings on HuffPo. Anyone arguing for a better educational system has my vote:

    “Obama doesn’t equal Rezko no more than Hills does, they both gave the money to charity, so please cut the BS. You may be understandably jealous that Obama came out with a better land-deal than you did.
    Besides, how do you make Obama your Landlord?

    Cold-water flats is a bi**h, but Obama didn’t invest in you apartment, and Resko just lost most of His trial, didn’t he? If He’s guilty of your condition, you should be getting some bucks, or should Obama pay your rent?

    Incoherency – the realm of the day.

  135. The above was a response to one of my postings at HuffPo.

  136. Pat, you are hilarious! Entering the polling booth with a Hazmat suit! So horribly true.

    I’ve been trying on my new McCain suit. It’s a little matronly and conservative-never looked that great in reds. But you know, the trendy looks don’t look so hot on me anymore.

    We’ll see. I may end up chickening-out and wadding- up this boiled red-wool/pearls combo and throwing it to the floor. In the meantime, I am enjoying my new (out)look.

  137. Amazing, Pat. And they say that we’re the undereducated ones.

  138. Obama knows how stupid some people are .. heknew it back when he said Jeremiah Wright wasnt the person he knew 20 years ago ( that would be roughly 1988 )
    As long ago as 1984, Wright accompanied Louis Farrakhan of the Nation of Islam on a trip to Libya to visit the dictator and terrorist Moammar Khadafy. When Obama joined TUCC, he therefore knew that the pastor consorted openly with a vicious racist, anti-Semite, and Catholic-hater while paying friendly calls on an Islamic supremacist dictator. So Obama has known for some time people cannot do simple math
    or dont wish to bother .. Bo and co have been laughing up their sleeves for some time now . simple math 1988 – 1984 is FOUR YEARS so simple really …

  139. joaniebone: My state, MA, will more than likely go blue again. We always do. But I will wait until November to make my decision of how I will proceed.

    If Obama is behind here, good, I will let the McCain voters do the job for me.

    If he is ahead, I will vote McCain.

    However, I am just adopting a wait and see attitude. Maybe, just maybe, Hillary can overcome in the end. Fingers crossed.

  140. I was back at Zsa Zsa’s place and it looks like some of Mawm’s comments are missing.


  141. Pat,

    Here in Washington State, it’s almost the same climate. It’s been blue for awhile, but could go either way. I am getting prepared to vote regardless of which way it goes, knowing that I will be accepting responsibility for my voting statement.

    I feel shaky on this–almost scared–to take a stand with McCain. But every time I examine the alternative (Obama winning), I can’t stand the idea. I am in a state of shock that the idea of President McCain is more acceptable to me than President Obama.

  142. At least with McCain you can point to experience and a long paper trail.

    With Obama, it is like a Mother Hubbard pantry. Nothing.

  143. (rage) (sigh)

  144. It’s amazing how uninformed people are about Obama. I got an email from my youngest brother yesterday with drafts of letters about FISA. But he hadn’t seen Obama’s statement yet. He’s no Obama supporter. But you could here his roar of rage across the city after I sent it to him.

    Obama is bad in so many ways and for so many reasons it’s frightening. It’s almost like you have to pick a couple and stick with them just to keep from going crazy.

    For me the lack of job experience and the Ayers/Dohrn/Wright thing are what I picked. But it’s just ’cause I can already see the attack ads in my head.

    There are so many other wonderful choices …

  145. (waving at Joanie)

  146. Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton, two time senator from the state of NY, former First Lady, all around fighter and one big first class act. The only one for me.

    I was so hyped this season. Had planned on working steadily and relentlessly for her during the election season when she wrapped it up.

    Now, zero enthusiasm and fluctuating between rage and anger.

  147. katiebird:

    How could anyone be informed?

    His most loyal project their beliefs onto him, and assume not only that he agrees with them, they assume he’s lying when he says he doesn’t.

  148. Pat: Just got back from lunch. Was nice to bitch back at them. That is all they have for ammo. You’re a racist.

    I am constantly telling the ex and other friends that have jumped on board the ‘Bama train, that if he is elected, I pray that I am totally and completely wrong.
    But so far, nobody has offered anything to convince me that I am.

    Somebody just posted what looks like a whole book on my site in response to my kool aid posting.

  149. Pat: just read the response to your post at HuffPo, maybe he is one of the felons Oborgs are going to be signing up.

  150. No offense to felons.

  151. myiq — I just wish Hillary had actually run the scorched-earth campaign she was accused of. When I think of all the things we didn’t learn (even those of us who sought out the facts) until it was WAY too late — those things would have made all the difference to the campaign.

    Why didn’t ANY of the other candidates point out Obama’s almost total lack of job experience?

  152. katiebird:

    I think they were concerned about being accused of racism.

    Look at the mild criticisms that were called racism anyway, like the “fairy tale” thing.

  153. I made a comment on BTD’s PUMA thread about Obama’s lack of job experience. But, it’s gone now….

    That’s one of the reasons this stuff was never revealed. It’s considered poor taste to discuss it.

  154. myiq2xu, I’m sure it would have been considered racist. I’m still shocked every time I type the words. It’s seems ludicrous. But no one’s come up with a full time job to prove me wrong.

    (I wonder if my second Talk Left comment has been deleted yet)

  155. Poor taste? I’ve got poor taste, allright. In my mouth. Right now.

    How did this creep get so much benefit of the doubt??

  156. KB,

    I always wondered why we didn’t just go on full-attack too. I understand the reasons why the decision was made not to, but if you’re going to get accused of it anyway, why not just go full-out?

  157. HA! It didn’t get deleted but TChris gave me a troll rating….

  158. You’re a troll on TL now?

  159. What is really interesting is that many, many others are as disgusted by the DNC and the handling of this “presumptive” nomination. So even though we become somewhat obsessed at times, it is good to venture into other blogs and witness other posters who are still harboring this offense.

    Safety in numbers is what I say.

  160. katie, I had a poster at HuffPo tell me today that saying BO was unqualified was a racist coded-message.

    They are really buying or at least trying to sell this extreme version of PC.

    To me, it is just a big shield against any real criticism of BO. They will cry rac..ist at every turn.

    I am wondering how the Repubs will handle it.

  161. I have to say after all the work I did on that Off the Bus project for Huff Post, the taste in my mouth is like nectar of the gods, to just go over there in numbers and blast the hell outta them.

  162. I just made a huge mistake. Went to Huff Po and they have a diary up saying that Hillary will return to work on Tuesday in the US Senate.

    The comments for the most part are relentless. The total lack of respect is breathtaking. I have been away from that blog for months, only tuning in every so often to read their headlines.
    This is by far the worst blog in the web. What they allow for discourse is pretty obscene.

    Good for you, Ariana. You have brought the dialogue to a new time low. Just wait until these undergrads begin to turn on you. You will have to increase your site monitors to simply keep up.

  163. The Repubs will laugh at it

  164. Pat: How bad is it, or should I just go back and look for myself. I know it will get my granny panties in a wad, but I am just so freaking tired of the garbage.

  165. Ariana left her scruples in a suitcase in Greece. Just another wealthy opportunist whose money buys her entre. I will always remember her defending Newt when she acted on his behalf. Couldn’t praise him enough. If that position alone does not earn suspicion I have no idea what does,

    She is as nasty as MoDo and that is saying a lot.

  166. Kim: Bad enough. There were some who defended her but the overall thread was Hillary bashing. Just enough to churn up my bile. Don’t waste your time.

  167. myiq2xu, Thanks for the uprating over at TL. I wish he’d given me an example of a full time job or an accomplishment instead of just the rating.

    I started out questioning his job experience. But their lack of examples has confirmed the truth of it.

  168. I went and as bad as it was, the people making the remarks were so repugnant that the attacks didn’t seem to matter.

    They can’t put out numbers on their candidate, they can’t cite legislation. Someone put a factsheet up and cited it, and they asked for proof.

    I am probably going to get moderated for this, but quite a few of them seem to be voting for Obama because of his lineage and that only and we are called the r-word.

  169. Kim: Let’s face it. Those people are idiots. Comments like they make are better left for the back pages of some comic book.

  170. The “r” word has no meaning any longer.


  171. This is my favorite line from the salon article.

    Yes, they’re going to vote for Obama. Of course they’ll vote for him. The truth is, they’ll probably love voting for him.

    Any of you feel that way. If anything, I’m going to LOVE, LOVE, LOVE, to vote against him.

  172. Unity, New Hampshire? (BARF)

  173. .
    I grew up german-english (and irish) protestant but my name and cousins are irish and catholic. I always thought that anti-government libertarainism was a basic protestant attitude.

    Thus I’ve alwyas been miffed at how the evangelicals seemed to be taken over by the catholic nonsense about women and bodies. I think they are more catholic than the catholics.

    I re-read Roe V Wade yesterday and was confirmed in my idea that protestants used to think differently.

    Does anyone remember Bush kneeling to the dead pope? No protestant would have dared do that just a few years ago. (Respect is not the issue; the protestants that raised me do not believe anyone can stand between you and god.)

    Fox is amazing at their pushing of that religious stance, as if their veiw is the only moral one possible. I’ve suspected that MSNBC is part of the same game — taking us where some corner of Italy wants us to go — barefoot and pregnant so we can make more catholics so they can have more money and power.

    Thanks for giving me the forum for saying all this. I apologize to any offended catholics. I know many honestly believe the dogma. I know that it is not only authoritarian religion; it’s just the one we are talking about here today.

  174. You know, I’ve been stewing over all this and it finally dawned on me why. I had given up. I don’t know why. Probably because the media and the DNC and alot of blogs had convinced me that it was over for my candidate. I was reading today and realized that we haven’t actually had the Democratic Convention yet. There is no nominee until then. So I made a donation to Hillary. I feel much better now.

  175. Maybe Walter Shapiro should to people like me. Even my 9 yr old little princess is asking me why I’m unable to muster the tiniest enthusiasm for my fellow black man.
    She asked me a little while ago who I think should win between BO and McCrazy, and I said I didn’t really care one way or the other, to my own surprise.

  176. […] Monday: Hits and Misses There are a couple of posts around the web that got my attention last night. You might have already seen some of them. […] […]

  177. RD thanks, as always, for putting our stance and our collective feelings out there.

    I am beyond reconciliation. I am resolute.

    I will do all that I can to make sure that the tragedy perpetrated by the DNC and the Obama campaign is not forgotten, certainly not rewarded, and instead punished.

  178. I haven’t read Somerby’s post, but does he maybe distinguish between Roman Catholics and Irish Catholics? I have a feeling that by and large Roman Catholics came out for Clinton, since she ran away with that bloc during the primaries.

    Further, I can’t stand the end of her column. She lists the last point as “Women are tired of being held hostage by their reproductive rights.” Then she goes on to say that we WILL support barry cuz we care about Roe v Wade. Are you on crack you insane woman? Seriously.

  179. So, you given up on Roe? Are we supposed to be planning for a post-Roe world? With Roe gone, are we going to be better off with McCain or Obama?

  180. i’m glad they don’t need us. that way i don’t have to feel guilty for not voting in november. i’ve thought about it a lot and i cannot in good conscience vote for obama. just call me a conscientious objector.

  181. oh, and yes, i nearly gagged, and was completely insulted (oh those silly girls will come around. they don’t know their own minds and what’s good for them) by this line too:

    “Yes, they’re going to vote for Obama. Of course they’ll vote for him. The truth is, they’ll probably love voting for him.”

    Ah the thrill of hubris. Just one more reason I won’t be voting for him.

  182. First of all, I applaud you for challenging the “feminist” writer at Salon. Unlike others here, I wouldn’t classify her as a journalist. Her article is under “opinion” and she didn’t feel the need to explore anything that would put the currently spun Democrat story, such as, discussing the shafting of their own rules and the backroom deals and the blocking of Obama of any re-voting in those two states.

    And you know, I’m tired of the unwritten rule on some other feminist sites that you can’t call writers like this on their bullshit, if they are female and call themselves feminist. There is a pressure to always been demure , agreeable, and praising, when, really, there’s some major crap being thrown by a woman writer. It’s not a coincidence that this attitude is similar to the Obama “you’re either with us or against us” or a “SP – suppressive personality” if you dare to criticize or examine what they write.

    On the Welch, “rank and gank ” system: it also ironically promotes bad performance past the first “gank” or so.

    That is because the security of your own job depends on the poor performance of your teammate. Since a reliable 10 or below percentage of workers are laid off, it is not the best performer that preserves your job, it is the worst. So you want them to stay as long as possible to preserve your job.

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