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Wednesday: The Roe Ruse

From Jeffrey Toobin’s book, The Nine, in the chapter on the Casey decision (Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pennsylvania vs. Gov. Robert P. Casey) we learn about the melodramatic stylings of Justice Anthony Kennedy and an omen about the pragmatic Sandra Day O’Connor’s replacement on the court, Sam Alito.  But first, there was Webster:

…even as O’Connor criticized Roe, she never called for its outright rejection.  In 1989, the court came close to overturning Roe when it approved a Missouri law prohibiting abortions in public hospitals.  In Webster v Reproductive Health Services, Rehnquist, joined by White, Scalia, and for the most part, Kennedy, all but called for the end of Roe.  But O’Connor characteristically held back writing, “When the constitutional validity of a State’s abortion statute actually turns upon the constitutional validity of Roe, there will be time to reexamine Roe, and do so carefully.”…

Then came Casey:

Something else was bothering O’Connor too.  She was appalled by the provision in the Pennsylvania law that required married women who were seeking an abortion to inform their husbands.  The court of appeals had struck down this provision but Rehnquist proposed to uphold the view of the dissenting judge from the lower court.  But that opinion- the one by Judge Samuel Alito- outraged O’Connor.  She saw this provision as paternalism at best and sexism at worst.  O’Connor had a finely tuned radar for discrimination against women (something she sometimes lacked for bias against, say, African Americans), and she couldn’t abide the notion that the court would uphold such a law.

So Souter and O’Connor were aligned on the idea that the Court should uphold what they came to call the “essence” of Roe and they agreed that they should try to strike down the spousal notification provision.  But they only had four votes- their own, plus those of Blackmun and Stevens, who were ready to reject the whole Pennsylvania law.  They knew there was only one place to go for a possible fifth vote- the chambers of Tony Kennedy.

Kennedy’s peculiar combination of traits- his earnestness and his ambition, his naivete and his grandiosity his reverence for the law and his regard for his own talents- made him receptive to Souter’s appeal.  Kennedy thought there was nobility in judging; saving Roe would show the world that the justices were something more than mere pols.  A statesmanlike compromise suited both Kennedy’s politics and his conception of the role of the judge.

So, Kennedy signed on with Sourter and O’Connor.  His was the most dramatic switch of the three because it had been only three years since he voted with Rehnquist in Webster, an opinion that advocated overturning Roe.  Even more dramatically, Kennedy had clearly supported Rehnquist at the conference in Casey.  No vote is ever final on the Court until the opinion is announced, but changes from conference votes are still unusual, especially when, as in Casey, it was Kennedy’s vote that allowed Rehnquist to start drafting his majority opinion.

Now, fast forward to 2007. From a NYTimes article on the incorrectly named Partial Birth Abortion Ruling (it’s actually Intact Dilation and Extraction), we find the following passage lifted directly from Anthony Kennedy’s majority opinion:

“While we find no reliable data to measure the phenomenon, it seems unexceptionable to conclude some women come to regret their choice to abort the infant life they once created and sustained,” Justice Kennedy wrote, alluding to the brief. “Severe depression and loss of esteem can follow.”

Given those stakes, the justice argued, “The state has an interest in ensuring so grave a choice is well informed.”

Thank you, Justice Kennedy for that nostalgic piece of paternalistic Americana.  That will be quite enough.  If O’connor were dead, she’d be rolling in her grave right now.  It must be *killing* her to see this pompous ass making statements like this while her worst nightmare of Sam Alito is now occupying her spot on the bench.

Friends, this nonsense that the Obama camp is spewing about abortion rights is moot.  If the court wanted to outlaw Roe tomorrow, they already have the votes to do it.  Kennedy just needs to have his ego flattered into believing he is doing the noble, just and protective thing for American women and their psyches and, poof!, it’s over.  He already came close to overturning it in Webster, he was just barely persuaded to join the majority in Casey and he’s on record now in the Partial Birth Ruling (actually, Intact Dliation and Extraction) in 2007.  If the court is going to do it, it can do it.  The death or resignation of a more moderate or liberal justice can not change the balance.  You’d have to be able to replace Thomas, Alito, Scalia or Roberts as well,  And they’re still pretty young by SCOTUS standards.  Until one of them leaves, Roe is not safe and no Democratic president is going to be able to change that.

But the Republican dominance of SCOTUS appointees never really was about Roe.  Roe was a way for the GOP to get candidates elected.  It was all about triggering an emotional response in the older generation of voters who romanticized the fetus and heaped guilt and shame on young women.  It was remarkably effective but it will lose it’s charm if Roe is ever overturned.  The strict moralists will be satisfied when abortion becomes the dirty, illegal, dangerous procedure it used to be and young ladies learn to keep their legs together. Their job will be done and their impetus to turn out in droves for the anti-abortion candidate will diminish.  Well, there’s always gay marriage but it’s a state by state issue and there’s no Roe to get all incensed over.

No, the GOP has used Roe as a red herring. The anti-abortion justice is also an anti New Deal justice.  It’s really all about overturning all of the laws that FDR and earlier progressives managed to slip through.  Oh, and segregation.  Musn’t forget that.  With the uptick of towns incorporating themselves and being run by managers, there is a real danger that the poorer African- American sections of a township will be left without a tax base and money to fund schools in their neighborhoods but we can cover that issue at another time.

And now we have a presumptuous nominee who we can’t quite pin down when it comes to policy on much of anything.  But we know who is championing him: libertarian Democrats, former moderate Republicans, young college aged students from affluent backgrounds and a bunch of academic liberals wo don’t like to get their hands dirty.  The part of the party that is being purged consists of working class, elderly, latino, women, GLBT.  Just the kind of people who benefit from New Deal programs and the Great Society.

Now, I don’t know about you guys but the candidate that just got to where he is by capitalizing on the overt sexism of the media and the hidden currents of the culture at large, has a lot of nerve trying to capitalize on the fears of young women regarding their reproductive rights, especially when he is actively courting the evangelical constituency.  It’s cynical at best and I sure as hell am not falling for it.  No, I am looking behind the curtain at what he might be planning regarding overturning the law that allowed for Social Security.  That’s not a stretch at all to me and in this regard, he may be indistinguishable from John McCain when it comes to SCOTUS.

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206 Responses

  1. Mr Million Men March, “the claws come out” “periodically when she is down” is hardly reassuring me that he would take care of
    women rights.
    In fact, if his Solis Doyle gesture is any indication, he is even
    more vindictive than W was and would be likely out for payback.
    When he secretly met with the fundies, i doubt he told them
    to lay off our reproductive rights…

  2. “The One” hasn’t reassured me about much of anything that I care about.
    Mr. Hope and Change is in all actuality Mr. Politics At It’s Sleaziest.

    Roe? I have always believed that the choice to have an abortion should be left to a woman, her physician and her conscience. Will some, in time, have regrets? Probably. Regrets are a part of life.

    Fact is, about woman’s rights I don’t trust this guy; about Social Security, I don’t trust this guy and the people around him. Furthermore about helping the people in this country that need that help the most, I don’t trust this guy one little bit.

    So any little “sweetie” that comes blathering to me about Roe is barking up the wrong old lady. That includes my Obamatot Granddaughter. “But Grandma, what about Roe”, she says dramatically. “No longer my concern kiddo. If Grandpa knocks me up, I’m sure he’ll do the right thing.”

  3. THANK YOU for this post!
    Using the “threat” of losing RvW to push women into falling in line behind BO is despicable behavior.

    Speaking of misogyny and sexist remarks, much like there can be “reverse racism” there are apparently a number of Democratic female Senators willing to do the same. See this article at ABC(I can’t believe what they said!) entitled “For Now Sans Clinton, Democratic Women Rally-
    Democratic Female Senators Rally, Without Clinton, to Build Party Unity”

    http://tinyurl.com/6o7d5l

    My comment:=
    Let me make sure I understand this article…These female SENATORS came together at the former home of suffragette Alice Paul after we have sat though a year of misogynistic bashing of the first viable female candidate for President and they talked about macaroni and cheese, lipstick, and tankinis…

    NOT ACCEPTABLE! Not one word of protest about the year and a half of misogynistic bashing Hillary Clinton was subjected to, or the sexist remarks now made about her female supporters. Instead you straightened your shoulder pads and talked about checklists with summer camp and donuts.

    Well, I have a checklist too -1. Not vote for BO
    2. Don’t give a dime to the DNC
    3. Post your contact emails and your quotes from this article all over the internet, so we can tell you how we feel about your comments.

  4. Fuzzy says not to worry I believe they Sen. Obama campaign will be unsuccessful and divided government will persist-McCanin will nominate More Souters and Sandra Day O’connors and in 2012 Hillary will replace them all with Ruth Bader Ginsbergs of every gender and race…..

    As Sen. Obama returns to the senate with much deminished stature and appeal- will he stop for a moment by McCain empty chair and wonder….as he looks across the chamber at the crowd surrounding the now assendant Sen. Clinton….will he stop and wonder…

    If I was not in such a hurry, had I not bet the farm, would there not be two empty chairs in this chamber she in the white house where I now see she belongs, and me in the other house near the naval observatory….watching the stars, learning from the master and and waiting patiently my turn?

    well work and the wheel call -good day to all

    Fuzzybeargville

  5. I’ve thought the same thing. Indistinguishable.

  6. Obama knows what is best for you, silly.

  7. Is it me, or you do they never have a positive reason for voting for the precious. All they ever come in here and do is try and brow beat and guilt trip us.

    They are taking a play out of George Bush’s book. Fear moves people.

    Remember how they whined about the 3AM ads? Now its 3AM and we’re walking down a dark alley in Detroit.

    No worries. Soon it will be “Morning in America”.

  8. (nodding) Good Morning Riverdaughter and everyone. It’s totally bizarre to expect “Hillary Supporters” to move to Obama for SC appointments. Obama’s not courting “Hillary Supporters”. He’s courting religious fundamentals.

    (getting dizzy)

    I don’t trust him and it doesn’t matter anyway. As you say, the votes are there to do whatever they want on a whole range of things.

    Bleh. I haven’t had coffee and I’m not up to spitting. But if this week keeps going the way it is, I’m going to pucker up.

  9. I am so sick of hearing about Roe vs. Wade from the Obamabots. There are so many other issues that are vital in this election and their main battle cry is “Roe vs. Wade.” Mawm is so right. They never have a positive reason for voting for Obama. They just resort to fear.

    I thought I would let you in on how I am “helping” the DNC with their financial problems.

    I sent a contribution to the DNC for $2300 to help with the convention costs. I sent “cash” in the envelope. The only thing is …..it was Monopoly money. I feel if they think their primary was done legally and their candidate is legit, then they will be able to use the Monopoly money too. As far as I am concerned their candidate is as valid as the Monopoly money would be if you went to the bank. They are on the same level as far as I am concerned.

  10. Good morning (waving)

    I’f glad that PUMAs are out in force exposing Roe v. Wade as a red herring. I think Obama is not trying to get our votes. He’s trying to divide young and old women. Young women will get angry at older women for not feeling the feat.

    Obama: Divide and Conquer.

    NO DEAL

  11. kbird: “I haven’t had coffee and I’m not up to spitting”

    Hurry up then and have some coffee, we need some of your spitting.

    PS. Thinking of you.

  12. Thinking about you? (damned prepostions)

  13. Here’s how Obama will spin it to the young women:

    “Hillary supporters are old and bitter. They had abortion available to them when they were young. Now they are old and they can’t find men to have sex with them. They are trying to punish you for being young and sexy and able to have a good time.”

    He can use film from the summer of love to show what wildly happy sex lives we had.

    No need for the young women to trouble themselves with what it was really like. My neices don’t have any interest in it. They take reproductive rights for granted.

    NO DEAL

  14. I actually tend to think a lot of what we’d see from McCain and Obama would come down to the same policies. For example, there is no way in hell the Bush tax cuts will be made permanent. Congress is going to let them lapse because we are broke. And, remember, McCain voted against those tax cuts to begin with. He’s pandering to the conservatives who don’t trust him. On Obama’s side, there will be no major tax cuts for the middle class. Again, we are broke. At the end of the day, we will get the retirement of the Bush tax cuts, and a phase out of the AMT(which both support).

  15. had? HAD?! Have you seen Madonna’s new video yet? If SHE isn’t willing to give up a good f%^&!, then neither am I. Damn! I wish I had her personal trainer.

  16. “He can use film from the summer of love to show what wildly happy sex lives we had.”

    The Summer of Love? Was at least 3 years before Roe. And Obama has ALREADY said that no one believes in abortion.

    This guy’s idea of choice is to back someone up against a wall an berate them until the give in. I’m not falling for it.

    Honestly, if it didn’t matter so much I’d say the Super Delegates will get what they deserve. They’re the ones who will actually be getting the harassing telephone calls directly from this bully in the middle of the night.

    not me.

  17. Arabella: “Now they are old and they can’t find men to have sex with them.”

    It always boils down to sex…heh.

  18. RD – haha

    What I mean is that Obama will show his ignorance about women my age (54!)

    Young people think people my age don’t have sex. They think that they discovered sex. They think being old is one of the worst things you possibly can be. They also think older women are jealous of them.

    Woodpecker laugh hahaha HA a

    No Deal

  19. off topic, but a friend sent me the link below in which Obama’s half brother confirms Obama’s Muslim upbringing and education, yet Obama continues to lie about this.
    http://web.israelinsider.com/bin/en.jsp?enLastAction=null&enDispWho=Article%5El12918&enPage=ArticlePage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=object&enZone=Politics&

  20. Upstate – Too true, unfortunately. For many women, it’s more about being able to attract a man. You can never be thin enough or pretty enough etc. They young women fear teh ugly!

    Speaking of self-image, Michele seems to have had some work done on her nose and lips. She also straightens her hair. That is anyone’s personal choice. But back in the 1970’s, the black women I knew were proud of their natural features. Even into the 1980’s, some black women called hair straightening and plastic surgery a sign of “black self-hate.”

    Topic – Obama finds another way to give women the finger by dividing old vs. young. “See those bitter old women who cling to Clinton? That’s because she’s old too. ”

    NO DEAL

  21. The Summer of Love? Was at least 3 years before Roe. And Obama has ALREADY said that no one believes in abortion.

    Yeah, we know that but the young people today don’t know or care. It’s so easy for Obama to split young from old by telling the story any way he likes. His young supporters don’t know anything about our generation.

    No Deal

  22. angry artist: It’s Ok. The evangelicals aren’t so concerned with his alleged Muslim connections now that they think he is the anti-Christ.
    For once in my life, I think they might be right about something.

  23. “His young supporters don’t know anything about our generation.”

    Arabella, or apparently, their candidate…

  24. Abortion – Smortion!

    If people have to be forced into having protected sex for the next 4 years, then so be it. I will be glad to point anyone in the direction of free condoms. Let’s have some personal responsibility on all levels.

    I’m interested in all the rights and privileges of all Americans to have a country and a world that is performing at it’s best.

    Democracy 1st
    America 1st
    President Hillary Rodham Clinton 1st

  25. It’s weird when politicians lie about something I don’t care about…..

    It makes my brain jump all over. I want to fight the lie, but I don’t care about the subject. But, the LIE….

    And everything about Obama is covered in a heavy fog which distorts sound in addition to obscuring visibility. So it’s hard to know what I even heard.

  26. Clearly the best way to advance women’s rights is to promote the stereotype of women as petulant and overly emotional while allowing a candidate who obviously has no interest in advancing women’s rights except for a few token handouts to swoon the ignorant people who don’t understand what they’re talking about because you can’t deal with the fact that your candidate lost a primary and some people said misogynistic things and you’re too stupid to notice the misandry present in your own campaign.

  27. My sister just sent me a link to a youtube of McCain using the “c word” she said.

    I wonder If I should send her the video of Obama giving Hillary the finger and brushing her off his shoulder. (shaking my head) I don’t think she’d care…..

  28. My daughter (18) and I were just watching an episode of “Cold Case” set in 1969, involving an underground abortion clinic. My daughter is very interested in the 60’s and is always pressing me for details. I remember when I was around 16 (1971-2), living in Chicago and hearing about people going to NY to get abortions.

    Roe is important to me, but I’m not a one-issue voter. Besides, I have never trusted Obama on Roe and SCOTUS. His pandering to evangelicals and his statement that pro-choicers should consider the feelings of pro-lifers do not inspire confidence in me. When has the man ever taken a stand on anything? He says one thing to one audience and something else to another. He has no record from which we can interpret WORM.

    I resent his supporters holding Roe over our heads. Sorry, sweeties, not buying it!

  29. Let’s not group all young people into one category. My son and most of his friends graduated from USC, UT, and UNT.

    They are responsible 26 to 28 year olds. My son and most of his friends voted for Senator Clinton in the primaries and debate the Obama hold outs on a daily basis to help them see the light. Some have been won over and the rest are hiding out.

    It’s just a matter of pointing out the obvious flaws in supporting someone that looks good on film.

    (My son and most of his friends are in the film industry – they know what happens in the process.)

  30. RD–Well researched and well written, as always. I don’t recall whether Hillary had a “one line quote” on abortion, other than “safe, legal and rare,” but I do recall John Edwards saying that it was a decision to be left up to a woman and her doctor. Obama says it’s a decision between a woman, her doctor, her family and her minister. Her minister? I know a number of women who have had abortions, AA and white, and I don’t know a single one who consulted her minister, for heaven’s sake. Talk about patriarchal!

    Mawm–Excellent point on how there are never reasons to vote for Obama from the Obamacrats so much as there are fears spread about what will happen if we don’t vote for him. I wasn’t willing to live in fear under George Bush, and I’m not about to live in fear now, regardless of who occupies the Oval Office.

  31. mawm was right before. Polls consistently show that over 60% of Americans prefer a woman’s right to choose. I find it hard to believe that the SC would want to go against the tide on that one. And if they did try to overtune it, there is always the option of ammending the constitution….

  32. great post btw…

  33. Jim, that was a one sentence paragragh. Please have mercy on us poor readers.

  34. RD – fix my sentence “the rest are hiding out.”

  35. The point is, Roe v. Wade is a red herring.

    I’m voting for McCain.

    PUMA

  36. That MO has gotten a make-over – unless it involved a brain transplant, they did not go far enough. Too little, Too late.

  37. Arabella Trefoil,
    The effects of not teaching our history to kids. We teach them about George Washington and Thomas Jefferson, and we go through WWII and maybe Korea, but the closer we get to the Vietnam war and the civil rights movement the more educators get scared about the parent backlash.
    We all found out just how much of an open sore the vietnam war is when Bush invaded Iraq. It seemed like a lot of the same struggles and issues of the 60s resurfaced.
    Now it seems High school kids have an almost complete black-out of history from 1963 and on, so I think it is easy for Obama to take advantage of that lack of perspective.

    Question: Do any Boomers here feel like this is payback for “Don’t trust anyone over 30”? I always thought that was an idiotic thing to say. Did any of you buy it back then? It is interesting to look back at the arrogance of some of young people then: TImothy Leary, Ken Kesey, Abbie Hoffman, Ayers. I think arrogance is sort of the shadow side of youth.

  38. Jim,

    Are you a complete idiot, or does the idiocy only come out when you think you are talking to women? We are a very diverse group at the Confluence.

    Oh and, provide some specific examples of misandry in Clinton’s campaign please.

  39. These women senators are an embarrassment!!!!! THEY SHOULD HAVE STOOD ABOUT THE MISOGYNY IF THEY GAVE A SHIT ABOUT WOMEN!!!!

  40. Fantastic post. One aspect of protecting choice is voting wisely and not voting people into office who don’t support it. A variation on that is true as well – you must also pick the candidate who is pro-choice who can win majority support. That seems to be where our young feminists have failed this time out. They seem to think they have the right to define feminism for all of us, and judge who rises to the task the best.

    I have no idea why any feminist anywhere would vote for Obama. His “present” votes on choice issues and his willingness to allow a woman to go out and lie for him to cover his irresponsible voting habits is stunning to me. Watch the Lorna Howard video again – she looks down and to her left at one of the overt lies that she tells. for those who don’t know – she identifies herself as the president of Chicago’s NOW and talks about this strategy that was in place that called for pro-choice Democratic legislators to vote present to provide cover for Dems in conservative districts to vote present as well so as to not compromise their re-election prospects. The problem is that Lorna hadn’t been president of NOW in three years when Obama’s votes at issue transpired. Bonnie Grabenhofer, who was president of NOW at the time of the votes, says Lorna’s wrong and that the goal was to get as many legislators to vote pro-choice as possible.

  41. Upstate, Thinking of me sounded so romantic….

    I haven’t had any results about the tests. The next one is on Friday. I don’t know why I’m not more worried. I guess I’m consumed by the Just Say No Deal movement.

  42. I’ve reached the same point of acceptance on Roe v. Wade that I have on the results of the fixed nomination process. To the Supremes and the fundies, I say “Go right ahead and overturn Roe.” I will wait and watch the chaos that follows with interest. There will be hell to pay from the very young women who support Obama.

    What I don’t get is the lack of outrage from Obama and his supporters at the fact that the Supreme Court recently all but overturned Brown v. Board of Education. To me that is really serious. I’ve never heard Obama say one word about it.

  43. In the forum (Compassion Forum?) didn’t Obama say he had not formed an opinion on the right to choose? I kind of recall that, but I don’t want to pronounce it. It just struck me that his answer was something very vague. I don’t trust him to protect abortion rights, and while I think the right to choose is very important, I do not like the way it is being played by the Boyz as the bogeymama. They never cared about it before, or at least not enough to protect it.

    I think that abortion rights are something that many Republicans don’t want “gone” either. They have daughters who get pregnant just like Democrats do. Ideologically they have staked out their position, but notice with the moderates it’s more a “states’ rights” position (the states not the feds should decide about abortion) than it is anti-abortion per se. Only the real paternalists can’t stand the idea.

  44. Katie,

    Your body is telling you that everything is OK. Trust it. That is why you are not more worried.

  45. RD, dead-on analysis of Roe and its cynical uses by both left and right.

    I will not be “Roed” into voting for Obama.

    Obama’s a front man for a massive infiltration of the liberal establishment with faith, fundies, and fear – all from the left, rather than right. But religion in America is laced with authoritarianism, a phenomenon that Obama appears very comfortable with.

  46. Well, I hope that being a man, I’m still welcome at this site! Having said that, might I add that I prefer women in my age range (I’m 57). AND, I think that Senator Clinton, aside from her other obvious attributes, is quite lovely. (Is it ok to say that?).

    -MS

  47. Lori,

    If you have time, would you please look at last night’s post by Madamab? It is a hilarious one-act play about the campaign, “Barack Obama meets America.” Could it be made into a youtube video?

  48. I taught my kids everything I could about the 60’s, my daughter did a six-page essay in 7th grade on Kent State.

    My son is a devoted Hunter S. Thompson reader and they all join me in my support for Hillary Clinton.

    I really detest it when they try to bring religion into the fray. When I was counseling abused women, our most dreaded words were: “But he has found the lord.”

    My response was usually when did the lord get lost?

  49. Kbird, I am such a stalker (sp.). Keeping fingers crossed.

    Must go now. Be good, but not too good.

  50. {{Upstate}} It’s not really stalking if it’s mutual, is it?

  51. I believe there is nothing more important than fair elections in a Democracy, especially a representative one where we only get to vote periodically before we hand over the control of our lives to someone. Once they know they successfully control the election process, and there is no disent in the country, they can do anything they like. You could cry and scream about RVW, Iraq, torture, habeus.. all you want, and it won’t do any good, because they don’t have to listen to you now.

    For me, to vote for Obama because he may or may not appoint a judge who may or may not uphold RVW is nothing compared to the damage a successful Obama bid would have on our election processes. If he wins, the DNCs journey to the “dark side is complete”, and we will not have a fair election in the country again. It was always the Democrats wanting to make sure people’s votes were counted. By giving your stamp of approval to the Democrats now though, you tell them that you don’t care about fair elections.

  52. Lori–Having lived in IL all my life, I can tell you that the voting “present” issue is utter nonsense fabricated by the Obama campaign and, I suspect, in collusion with Planned Parenthood.

    I was fortunate that my State Senator for many years, Jeff Schoenberg, was one of the leading proponents of a woman’s right to choose. He would have been drummed out of office had he ever voted “present” on any issue.

    Schoenberg has been a phenomenal force in state politics, first as a State Representative and then as a State Senator. If you look at the record of someone like Schoenberg, and his district predecessor, Jan Schakowsky, you’ll understand why Obama’s reputation, among those of us in IL who follow state politics, was truly unimpressive when he first ran for US Senator.

  53. Why would anyone ever trust a politician who frames abortion with “moralistic” right-wing nonsense, courts a fervently misogynistic base, and avoids “controversial” issues like the plague on the issue of gender rights (e.g., Title IX, pay discrimination, etc.)? And as RD pointed out: the 5 votes are already locked down to overturn Roe so there’s no need to fall for the extortion scam.

    Great post.

  54. FYI: The local paper reports unconfirmed that the Clintons have been chilling at a friends home here in my hometown of East Hampton, NY where they have many friends. If so, they are staying conspicuously out of sight. some of their good friends and supporters say they are getting behind Obama, but are not planning any fundraisers. The whole thing makes me ill.
    Where is the leadership in the party? Are there no clinton supporters who will stand together and say ..Hell NO!

  55. angry artist:

    I think she HAS to get behind junior for appearances sake… I’m sure that after the elcetions (when he finds much to his consternation that he’s still a senator) you’ll hear more from Senator Clinton (or, dare we hope, President Clinton?).

    -MS

  56. I’m surprised that the DNC did not try to strongarm her into getting right out on the road for him. It is apparent to everyone that the Unity pony is not getting they rides they expected at county fairs.

  57. You haven’t heard President Clinton endorse Obama and I don’t think we will any time soon. Now …there is a leader.
    I am so offended that this is all happening before the convention. It’s unbelievable!

  58. Angry Artist: we are those supporters.

  59. By the way, could someone say how to contribute to PUMA (snail mail, please – I don’t use my credit card over the internet). Thanks!

    -MS

  60. Kim,

    How can Hillary do him any good on road? Her supporters already boo and hiss if her name is mentioned. Obama already destroyed any ability Hillary would have to help him.

  61. Chimera,

    I think Obama said he hadn’t formed an opinion on when life begins. And he is how old? And has been in politics for how long?

  62. @BB: I love that! His whole campaign was based on trashing the Clintons so bad that neither of them can save him. I can’t wait until he tries to claim Bill Clinton’s economic legacy as his own–as a “Democrat”–when he specifically slammed the Clinton economy (saying it was no better than the Bush I years). I’m guessing either McCain or the media will show him what a fool he was to divorce himself from that Democratic success.

  63. I really liked this post but I would add one thing; states (some have been slowly dialing back reproductive freedoms for a while now.

    You know what I think a lot of this Roe vs. Wade talk boils down to, noob feminism. A lot of people know that reproductive rights were an intensely unifying issue in the 70s for feminists. Now it is like, “oh you’re a women, you’re a feminist, abortion, vote for my guy.” It is so stupid and dismissive.

  64. Hey, Ryan,

    Many of us MEN support a woman’s right to choose. Not just because it’s the right thing – of course it is!… When you start limiting choice IN GENERAL, you simply don’t know where that will end.

    Be inclusive!

    -MS

  65. Great post RD.

    You bring up an excellent point – Obama’s plans for social security. Can we hope to see a similar post about the future of social security under an Obama administration? Thanks and you’re the best.

  66. BB: Because he is that egocentric.

  67. Thanks for this post. I have heard people say again and again that I need to stop being spiteful and vote for Obama because of SCOTUS. First, I am not spiteful at all, my decision to not vote for him is clear and reasoned. Second, the SCOTUS argument does not scare me – it is fear mongering of the worst kind. Third, I have little confidence in Obama’s ability and committment to pick justices that will defend civil liberties, etc.

    I am abroad on vacation right now and I had an interesting conversation with my uncle, who lives in Ireland, and he was BESIDE HIMSELF that Obama actually got nominated. He just kept saying he could not understand how a man with no resume got the nomination…I often ask myself the same question…

  68. JJ:

    Obviously, you and your uncle have no experience with “carny” people… LOL!

    -MS

  69. Jeebus——Just saw Boxer, McCaskill, and Mikulski on Morning Joe talking about their new group-Women for Change. They had a list of issues that they are supposedly going to push for women and McCaskill spent her alloted talking time praising Hillary. I really cannot stand that woman. I guess if I didn’t have vivid mental pictures of her lurking around BO and smiling like a silly teenager, she might be more believeable.

    Odd, that NOW they are interested in women’s issues.

  70. Claire MCCaskill, I am sorry but that woman just pisses me off.

  71. The thing that gets me is that the BO supporters rant and rave to us about the SCOTUS argument. Yet they have absolutely nothing solid to back up their argument. Is it a present vote?

  72. Park Slope Voter

    I agree with you. I find Hillary Clinton lovely, both inside and out.

    On a completely shallow note- I never got the supposed “charisma” Precious has, nor do I find him even reasonable attractive, if anything he leans on the side of ugly. Michael Steele, Colin Powell are much more attractive men. Same with Michelle – Boy, if ever there was someone that got hit with a bag of ugly… She is NO Vanessa Williams or Jackie Kennedy (much as she tries). It doesn’t help she always has a bitter puss on her face. I guess it’s just all falls into the narrative the media keeps pushing.

    I know, I know …I’m being completely shallow- but hey, just because it’s not the PC thing to say doesn’t mean it is not the truth.

  73. BTW, did Claire bring her children so they could tell her what issues are important?

  74. Kim,

    Maybe Claire’s children should get together with Carolyn Kennedy’s children and decide who the VP should be?

  75. Good point, Kim—-and no back-up argument applies to him about alot of things. He supposedly reaches across party lines to work with people when actually Hillary and McCain have a record of doing just that.
    And if he were such a great community organizer (imagine listing that as a qualification for president-on that basis probably a fourth of the country could apply), why isn’t the southside of Chicago in better shape.
    No back-up indeed.

    Also, on Roe v. Wade–if the repubs got rid of Roe, they would be in the toilet for generations. I don’t think they are that stupid.

  76. Hey, Ryan,

    Many of us MEN support a woman’s right to choose. Not just because it’s the right thing – of course it is!… When you start limiting choice IN GENERAL, you simply don’t know where that will end.

    Be inclusive!

    /agree; thanks for tacking that on. Men can be feminist too 🙂

  77. Boxer, McCaskill, and Mikulski can kiss this old lefty’s hindquarters. NOW they’re concerned about women’s issues? Now?

    What absolute hypocrisy. What they are concerned about is losing another damn election. They are finally coming to the understanding that there are women and a whole lot of great men that don’t understand why they have been silent while another woman, another Democrat was pummeled mercilessly by her own party and the media. That are beginning to see that we don’t like the rampant misogyny is a part of “their” presumptuous candidate’s resume.

    I usually like Boxer, don’t know a whole lot about Mikulski but know that McCaskill is not worth the saliva in a good spit!

  78. The Supreme Court is a concern, not just about Roe versus Wade. I am not a single issue woman. I am insulted that the dems only think we think about one thing. It personally insults my intelligence. I also don’t appreciate that use fear tactics to “get us in line”, which is similar to the RNC fear tactics the right wing nuts in line.

  79. It is just all so f@#k$%g ridiculous. I read the posts and I agree. It has been said over and over. He has no resume-ok. He has unsavory affiliations with nefarious types-ok. He has never had a full-time job and can’t stick with anything more than 2 years-ok. He flip-flops-ok. He can’t answer a question without a teleprompter-ok.

    I have talked to supporters who acknowledge all of the above. Then smile with a “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds” kinda smirk and say, “Change”, “Hope”.

    I want to shake them out of the stupor, rough ’em up a little.

  80. I just the 10 female Senators that are now going to work for “CHANGE”.

    I will not sign on for anything that now uses the word “CHANGE”.

    These women should have thought about something other than their own jobs for the last 18 months.

    I know my sister in Missouri will work to get rid of Clare after her compliance in the assault on Senator Clinton.

    You don’t get to participate in the assault and then get a pass!

    Just Say NO DEAL!

    PUMA

  81. Kenosha, do you think that it might, finally, be dawning on them; that if this can be done to one, perhaps they are next?

  82. RD, your post dispels every imaginable concern regarding the R v W “threat”. Thank you for such a well written and thoughtful offering. I spent a large part of the ’80’s and ’90’s pushing voters to hold their noses and vote in order to “save” R v W and I have also come to the conclusion that it is being used as a(nother) battering ram to get those who value reproductive freedom to fall in line.

    I ran an abortion clinic for eight of the happiest years of my life but abortion rights have never been the extent of my feminism. It has always been about social and legal equal treatment. It’s not as if those who fought so hard for our rights have forgotten or are not around anymore. We can fight for better laws if R v W falls which would have already happened because the votes are there right now. If we must, we can provide safe care underground again. The truth is, it won’t come to that because both the right and the left would lose too much leverage. So far, R v W’s effectiveness as a battering ram has served many interests quite well.

    No more. I don’t want a bunch of misogynists “granting” me my “right to choose” according to their whims and interests. I don’t want anything from them and they shouldn’t expect anything from me either, especially my vote, my money or my silence.

    PUMA

  83. I don’t know riverdaughter, it was the “older voters” who by their choices secured the right to a safe, legal abortion.
    The young women are the ones who are flocking to Obama. Maybe it’s time that they pick up the choice baton and run.
    The whole thing comes down to Justice Stevens who’s about eighty seven. The next President will-most likely-name his replacement. That’s a serious consideration but, frankly, not compelling enough to reward voter theft.

  84. laken4: I remember when I was a teenager watching the movie “Peyton Place” and asking my mom about doctors who performed the procedure. She said they were out there, if you looked hard enough.

    I was a Victim’s Advocate for 7years and there are many issues out there that women face besides R v. W.

  85. Kim — this is a perfect summary:

    It is just all so f@#k$%g ridiculous. I read the posts and I agree. It has been said over and over. He has no resume-ok. He has unsavory affiliations with nefarious types-ok. He has never had a full-time job and can’t stick with anything more than 2 years-ok. He flip-flops-ok. He can’t answer a question without a teleprompter-ok.

    I have talked to supporters who acknowledge all of the above. Then smile with a “Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds” kinda smirk and say, “Change”, “Hope”.

    I was working on just this sort of list while driving to work but kept getting distracted by (mental) rants at each check.

    THIS? is perfect template for my next post. Can I steal it?

  86. Mawm, I have really enjoyed your comments on this thread. They have expressed thoughts that have been in the back of my mind for a long time. Thank you.

    To address your question,

    Question: Do any Boomers here feel like this is payback for “Don’t trust anyone over 30″? …I think arrogance is sort of the shadow side of youth.

    My husband and I have discussed the arrogance of youth and how it relates to this election cycle. I’m a boomer and I certainly remember how brilliant I thought I was when I was in college. My friends and I would bloviate for hours over beers or coffee feeling quite confident that nobody ever had the amazing insight we did.

    But I also remember that we were never so arrogant as to conclude that we had better insight than our elders just because we had the benefit of a college education or because of the generation we were in. I don’t recall that we had the same dismissive attitude that some younger people today have. There seems to be a lack of courtesy and consideration today that wasn’t present in the discussions during my youth.

    I do distinctly recall my parents reminding us many times that one can learn something from anyone whether they are rich or poor, educated or not. Maybe, that’s the difference. Once again, it all comes down to how were were raised?

  87. Absolutely KB, take the ball and run with it.

  88. What is with these lady senators and the “women’s issues”? Where were they when their voices may had made a difference in this campaign? They were running around all het up over the General Betrayus and Move On ad but when it came to Hillary getting pilloried in the public square they looked the other way. I am tired of being suspicious of every calculating move these days. This party needs a complete overhaul and some backbone.

  89. To be fair, Mikulski did speak out publicly about the sexist media. Boxer, I’m done with. I unsubbed from her mailing list. I’ve unsubbed from so many mailing lists, and good riddance. I finally got rid of the DNC–they kept sending me stuff even after I unsubbed. But I guess someone must have read my angry e-mails. Now they leave me alone.

  90. What gets me is that while Hillary took the beating, these same people are now shaking their fists defying anyone to say anything derogatory against Mrs. Precious.

    Neither one deserves to be treated this way but why is Michele any different than Hillary. Talk about two faced indignation!

  91. “I do distinctly recall my parents reminding us many times that one can learn something from anyone whether they are rich or poor, educated or not. Maybe, that’s the difference. Once again, it all comes down to how were were raised?”

    janicen,

    I found your post to be most thought-provoking, I too, remember my years in college, and the absolute “genius” of the insights that my friends and I had – somehow, though, it wasn’t qquite so arrogant as the obamabots seem.

    Re: your observation as to how the two generations were raised, my only note on this would be to ask: who exactly was it that raised the generation that includes the “creative class?”

    -MS

  92. I hope that this “Women for Change” thing blows up in their faces. I want these three women to feel the pain. This is sickening.

    PUMA

  93. When I read “The NIne” I remember being surprisingly impressed with Sandra Day O’Connor. She stood between the other justices and held firm on the Roe v Wade vote. Along with Souter, she emerged from that book as true thinking justice even though I thoroughly disagreed with the 2000 election vote.

    Souter and O’Connor were both appointed by Repub presidents. It gives me hope.

  94. As the Supreme Court vote on habeus showed, just one more shift in a Justice and that’s it for lots of our rights.

    But, not to worry, women are supporting the pro-choice candidate in the swing states.

    Overall Quinnipiac poll numbers today:
    Florida: Obama: 47, McCain 43
    Ohio: Obama 48, McCain 42
    Pennsylvania: Obama 52, McCain 40

    And women?
    Florida women likely voters back Obama 50 – 40 percent,
    Obama leads 51 – 39 percent among Ohio women likely voters, and in Pennsylvania, Obama tops McCain 57 – 34 percent with women as men go 47 percent.
    http://marcambinder.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/06/heres_your_bounce_obama_up_in.php

  95. Pat, I hear and say that all the time. Democrats need a backbone. But I have started to think that there really isn’t a body there for a back bone to keep straight. There doesn’t seem to be a lot of real principles in this crowd of Democrats. I am starting to see their support of things like RVW and Iraq withdrawl as clubs with which to bash their supporters with to keep them in line.
    I have come to the concludsion that about %80 of them(figure pulled from a very reliable source, my a**) are completely addicted to the money, and could care less about anything else.
    There is no answer that will fix this problem and allow us to forget about it at the same time in my opinion. Money and its influence will always find its way to politicians. THe answer for all of us is in holding their feet to the fire. I, for one, no matter what happens in November, will not go back to sleep. That is what has brought us to this position.
    The internet will change our lives for the better if we take advantage of it, and use it to keep citizen journalists on the ones in power. We can no longer trust the MSM to do their job. I am not going to wait for me any longer.

  96. elderwoman,

    What do you think about letting the right to a fair election go, because that is what a vote for BO would mean. Election fraud is more serious than any fear mongering tactic the Obama campaign has thrown at me.

  97. Meethinks, elderwoman needs to become educated. regarding democratic processes (esp. the evils of disenfranchisement) and the importantance of maintaining our freedom.

  98. Mawm,

    I’m not going to be voting for BHO in November. But I’m curious: how do you think that not voting for junior will affect election fraud (and I hope you can say that it will and how it will!).

    -MS

  99. Mawm: Your a** may hold the answers; it produces more reasonable thought than what these “leaders” espouse. There are no leaders coming forth on the national stage. There are few voices taking up the cry. Since 2006 we have sat here and waited. And waited. Nothing.

    When they purposely wrap themselves around this candidate you have to step back in wonder. He does not embody the principles we have been raised with. I long for a voice, a movement, a reason to come forward and articulate the vacancy of this party. Other than Hillary, no one emerged.

    Until then, not one penny.

  100. Rte: he women senators checklist ploy —
    http://www.arkansasnews.com/archive/2008/06/18/WashingtonDCBureau/346708.html
    Senator Lincoln said, “We women make lists. I know my list this week is consumed of what most other working moms are doing, whether it’s a health-care form for summer camp, a carpool or soccer tryouts or doughnuts for the end-of-school party … . This is the list for all of America.”

    Well, we PUMAs make lists too. Here’s mine:

    1. Contact all women senators in the democratic caucus, Dean, Reid, and news media.
    2. Ask them where these senators’ unified visible front was when the Obama campaign and media engaged unchecked in the most vile misogynist campaign we have ever seen against of their own.
    3. Tell them the fact that not of them spoke out helped set back women’s progress 50 years, and their transparent limp gesture today is an insult. In particular, that they stayed quiet as mice for political expedience makes them unworthy of their office, and laughable as messengers of women’s concerns.
    3. Ask them why if Obama’s surrogates use Roe v Wade scare tactics to bludgeon us into submission, why reproductive rights is not on their checklist.
    4. Tell them that for the first time, I am truly ashamed of my party.
    5. Tell them I will never vote for Obama, donate to or volunteer for the DNC.
    6. Buy doughnuts for PUMA Party.

  101. ParkSlopeVoter: Thank you.

    Re: your observation as to how the two generations were raised, my only note on this would be to ask: who exactly was it that raised the generation that includes the “creative class?”

    The short answer is, “We did.” Not all of us, to be sure, but certainly some in our generation.

    As I reminded my husband during our discussion, these rude and insulting young Obama supporters are the same kids we saw fifteen year ago in supermarkets and malls behaving horribly and disrespectfully to their parents without every having their behavior addressed. They are the same kids who would push my young (and very small for her age) daughter out of the way at Easter egg hunts while their parents cheered them on for getting the most eggs.
    They are the products of a public education system which emphasized self-esteem over manners and hard work.

    I recall a parent-teacher conference with my daughter’s second grade teacher. He had marked her wrong on a spelling word which, I knew she knew how to spell, but she had made her “h” look like an “n”. When I called this to the teacher’s attention, I thanked him for marking her wrong. I told him that her first grade teacher would have marked it “correct” because my daughter was an excellent speller and the teacher knew what she meant. I knew that my daughter would never learn to make her letters correctly if she kept getting a pass. Well, the second grade teacher was totally shocked at my attitude. He said that he braced himself when I brought it up because so many other parents would have argued that the word should have been marked “correct”. Those are the parents who have raised the demanding and inconsiderate youth of today.

    Geesh, I sound old, don’t I?

  102. Mawn and pragmatist,

    Thank you for answering this elderwoman. I just don’t see the situation you do. I don’t see fraud. I remember real fraud – like stuffing ballot boxes.

    I am active in my state Democratic party and my friends who are really involved told me that they wanted to move up our primary but didn’t because we would have lost delegates. FL and MI made different decisions and paid the price.

    And, anyway, if you look at the numbers, Obama would have had more pledged delegates even if FL and MI got all the delegates from those votes they held. I’m convinced that the superdelegates were most interested in who won the most pledged delegates. That was the key to them and FL and MI wouldn’t have changed anything.

    So thanks for listening and having a good conversation with me.

  103. elderwoman

    Polls are nice, and this far out they don’t mean much.
    Either way, Obama should have more than an 5-6 point lead to cushion him .Now, if you REALLY think Obama will win Florida, Ohio or Pennsylvania I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell.

  104. 7. Apologize for typos.

  105. Barack Obama – Multiple Personality Disorder( LIAR BAMBOOZLER AND PLAIN FUCKING STOOPID)

  106. elderwoman, how did you feel when the Dems voted to approve Alito? Do you remember Bork? What was the difference do you think?

  107. Frankly I have not seen anything from this Dem “leadership” that tells me they will fight for anything the Dem base wants. Ever. And I’m tired of the con. I’m tired of being told ” sure we caved in this time….but next time we REALLY will fight ! ” and when the next time comes, the cave in is even faster. All the Dem leadership ever talk about is future fights they have no intention of doing . I’m not supporting these people and their con anymore .

  108. janicen said: “Geesh, I sound old, don’t I?”

    No, just old-fashioned (and refreshingly so)!

    And, yes, I was pointing out that it was our generation (but NOT all of it) that’s responsible for raising the spoiled brats. I have no kids. And OBVIOUSLY, you and your husband arer not at fault. Congratulations!

    -MS

  109. janicen: I totally agree with your assessment. These kids lack for little. Life has been a free ride so far.

    I had a neighbor who refused to discipline her kids because she did not want them to grow up with any “negativity”. They were brats. Disrespectful, overindulged, excuses made time and again for bad behavior. But they encapsulated the same behavior that was becoming more and more evident in other kids. No one was held accountable. It was up to everyone else to adjust to these brats conduct. Nothing was ever enough. And both parents were college educated.

    When every whim is granted, the howling you hear now from this group of brats is a result of always having things their way.

  110. elderwoman,

    Actually Hillary would have led in both delegates and popular vote if MI and FL had been fully counted, which would have been completely within the roolz. There is nothing sacred about “pledged delegates.” The RBC gave Obama 59 delegates he didn’t earn, including allowing him to steal 4 of Hillary’s earned delegates. He was such a weak candidate that he had to be helped across the finish line by fraud. How do you expect him to win the GE? Is he going to outdo the Republicans at stealing votes? They own the voting machinery in many states.

  111. Quinnipiac has been unreliable in state elections.

  112. elderwoman, how do you think the convention ended up in Denver, CO, the exact state Obama is supposed to bring into the clomun of BLue states. How do you think the night of the nomination was scheduled for the anniverssary of MLK’s I have a dream speech.

    This thing was fixed back in 2004 when a not yet elected to the senate BO was given a premium speaking slot at the Kerry convention.

    Elder, hang out here more. If you want more info on the way the primary was rigged we can give you a lot of other links.

  113. elderwoman: That Q poll doesn’t mean much, if anything. What was its accuracy rate during the primary?

    Let’s see how things fare when we head to September. That’s when the GE truly begins.

  114. elderwoman,
    Obama also wanted to approve Roberts and had to be talked out of it. Got Judgement?

  115. Sorry, elderwoman but we don’t have a reliable pro-choice candidate on the ballot.

    And I for one, don’t appreciate your lectures.

  116. I am 56 (no kids) and the eldest of nine. Most of my siblings raised/are raising their kids “old school.” The kids understand that they are part of a family/community. They respect others.

    I think the emphasis on “self esteem” and “self affirmation” has ruined a generation. One of my sisters has raised two lovely daughters who are spoiled. Where I live (Westchester County) I see no discipline at all. The little darlings are always right.

    PUMA

  117. elderwoman,
    It is not too late. Write superdelegates and ask them to support the winner of the popular vote, the people’s choice, Hillary Clinton. Democracy is a precious thing, and I know the Precious will continue to trash.

    Without fair elections, you don’t have rights, because you won’t be able to do anything about it when they take them away.

    Should I change my name to Cassandra?

  118. Obama is anti-american . .. .which easily trumps the so-called pro-choice issue; if abortions are more important to you than saving our country, then YOU vote for Obama because I (and millions of other Americans) never will. Furthermore, voting for him does not secure anything for you . . . you are truly naive and deluded if you think so.

  119. Does anybody know why Clinton gave this Solis Doyle such a plum position not to mention supremely important position when in fact this woman knew Axelrod from 2 decades? Did Clinton think that Solis Doyle may have orchestrated the campaign better because she knew the characters for so long? I it is hard for me not to speculate that she may have been the saboteur.

  120. elderwoman,
    Obama is anti-american . .. .which easily trumps the so-called pro-choice issue; if abortions are more important to you than saving our country, then YOU vote for Obama because I (and millions of other Americans) never will. Furthermore, voting for him does not secure anything for you . . . you are truly naive and deluded if you think so.

  121. As someone who attended caucuses in ’04 and ’08, I can tell you that there was fraud. We saw swarms of college-age “voters” in the ’08 caucus claim to be voters in our precincts whose addresses and identities were never verified and will never be verified. Our complaints to our state Democratic (sic) party and requests for voter verification go unanswered.

  122. elderwoman,

    I’ve been around a loooooong time too. I recall illegal abortions and the fight to win safe ones. And I’m not the only one here who does. You obviously know less about the current situation than you think you do if you are citing NARAL and Planned Parenthood as protectors of the right to choose.

    I have zero expectation of Obama supporting reproductive rights or any other women’s issue. He is a deeply sexist man with serious mother as well as father issues. He is so narcissistic that he is incapable of empathy for anyone except himself and of even caring for anyone who can help him get what he wants.

    If you support him, it is on your head when he privatizes social security, expands Bush’s faith based initiatives, and sells out health care to the highest bidder. If McCain is elected, I hope the spineless Dems in Congress will find a way to stand up to him. I won’t hold my breath. But I know for sure they can’t stand up to Obama. That has already been demonstrated.

    Go peddle your message elsewhere.

  123. The argument about Roe v Wade only hardens my resolve to ignore the pleadings of the Obama supporters.

    Let me ask you a question elderwoman: Are you ready to put your principles aside and vote for a man of whom you know so little? His resume is so thin you can see through it. What is there that convinces you that he can bring forth this idealistic change? What about his unsavory connections? What about his Marxist leanings? What about the types of people he may bring on board if elected? What answers has he given that permits you to put your own principles on hold while touting the abortion theme? Is that it?

    This blog is not about caving into sham arguments presented on his behalf. Most of us are pretty steeped in the political happenings. We read. We listen. We watch. Our decisions are based on our own life experiences and we attempt to remain true to our democratic principles.

    Just the fact alone that this race was settled from the beginning and that just a little maneuvering here or there guaranteed an Obama win is enough in itself to have lost my vote. You are wasting valuable time in thrusting this argument as the absolute need to win our vote. No go.

  124. Elderwoman: Obama only neglected voting for Roberts because a campaign aide talked him out of it. If you’re so well-informed, you’d know that.

    And Elderwoman you aren’t an elderwoman. We know your kind, we’ve seen it before. We see it everyday here.

    You’re a well-trained sweetie, I’ll grant you that, and you’re hijacking this thread. Please leave.

  125. elderwoman,

    pledged delegates were a big way they rigged the vote for Obama. They weighted the delegates so that Republican states counted more than blue states, and urban districts counted more than rural ones. They stacked the pledged delegate apportionment to favor Obama.

    His lead comes from all the Republican and caucus states, whereas hers comes from Primaries(real elections), and Democratic states.

    Did you know that in order to qualify under international election standards elections must have a secret ballot. These caucuses would not pass this standard, and we would label any other country using them as BannanaRepublics.

    The Democratic process is under assault right now, if not totally on the chopping block.

    Wake Up supposed progressive OBama supporters, you have Drunk the Kool-Aid, and now you are trying to kill us with it too.

  126. I hope elderwoman is gone; however, chances are good that he/she will reappear under a different guise (i.e., screen name change).

  127. LOL

    “Obama didn’t vote for Roberts and he wouldn’t appoint a judge like him. The guy is a lawyer and taught constitutional law at one of the best law schools in the country.”

    You really did drink the koolaid, didn’t you?

    How old are you, 80? This “elderly” white woman is not as easy to bamboozle as you apparently are. Seriously, cut out the patronizing, lecturing tone, or you won’t be commenting here any longer.

  128. Dear Cassandra:

    I love you!

  129. BB: I submit that elderwoman is hijacking this thread.

  130. Bottom line? I will NEVER accept a man telling me what I can or cannot do with my reproductive system. EVER. How about a little reciprocity? Tell you what–when I can tell a man what he can or cannot do with his penis, maybe I’ll listen to him. As if that’ll happen. My own 90-year-old grandmother had to deal with this BS all the way back in the ’40s and ’50s when she was denied access to ANY birth control, let alone abortion. My mother worked with and raised money for Planned Parenthood up until she died . The demonizing of young women who “won’t keep their legs shut” is demeaning to us all. Yet I’m not hearing Obama stand up and say “Pro-Choice”!! These NeoLibs have had too much given to them to appreciate the feminist struggles and sacrifices made by previous generations. Good thing I have a 15-year-old daughter to inspire me to keep fighting for HER rights; I would most likely have already thrown in the towel and said “You idiots are on your own. Good luck–you’re going to need it”.

  131. How old are you elderwoman? I am 56. You must be my age or older. I think I am among the last of people who remember having to help women find abortions.

    McCain 2008

  132. Elderwoman: Thanks, but I’ll take my chances with someone else. Obama’a ethics speak for themselves, its a no-brainer.

  133. Have a nice morning, everyone.

  134. Oh, and elderwoman? Before you go, if you cared so much about women’s issues you should have supported the candidate who has be a fighter for them all her life and who has the best chance of winning the White House in November. Obama has no chance in hell to win. He simply has too many negatives that the Republicans can club him over the head with. If he could talk without a teleprompter and he a middle aged man’s resume, maybe he would have a shot, but he can’t and he doesn’t.

  135. elderwoman – thread hijacker and troll.
    Please delete my comment to him.

  136. You are trying to convince me that a man who actually referenced trading a vote for a kiss, is interested in women’s rights? Give me a freaking break. We are not “sweeties” and by God I don’t trust any man who thinks we are.

  137. We aren’t all women here. What makes you even know my gender? Now take your patronizing attitude and get lost.

  138. Bet that elderwoman is some 20 something home on college break without a summer job.

  139. The first thing the opposition does when it knows it is in the wrong and feels insecure is call us on our commitment to R V W, our feminism, our commitment to racial equality, LGBT rights, the environment, economic justice, whatever it takes to silence us and send us cowering to the voting booth and doing their bidding. These tactics might work if the party was doing its part upholding these values instead of stealing votes, practicing and perfecting misogyny and race baiting.

    PUMA

  140. bostonboomer, on June 18th, 2008 at 11:17 am Said:
    If you support him, it is on your head when he privatizes social security, expands Bush’s faith based initiatives, and sells out health care to the highest bidder. If McCain is elected, I hope the spineless Dems in Congress will find a way to stand up to him. I won’t hold my breath. But I know for sure they can’t stand up to Obama. That has already been demonstrated

    Go peddle your message elsewhere.

    This post is chock full of excellent points ! and I can’t believe I’m defending McCain, but I feel his inroads and give aways will not be as fast and as sweeping as Obama’s would be . Both stink, but McCain stinks less. IMO

  141. Sorry about the troll, Teresa. He/she is leaving. I hope you have a great day and I hope to see you later on.

  142. “We really are all on the same page here in that we care about women and what happens to them.”

    Odd — I thought we cared about PEOPLE here. This man cares about women’s rights, of course, but in the overall context of people’s rights. Hope that’s ok…

    -MS

  143. This page may reference Roe v. Wade, but the main theme is, we support Hillary Clinton, we do not support Barack Obama. We are democrats who feel that this was a rigged election. Bottom line, we have no rights in anything, if we can no longer expect our votes to be counted.

  144. elderwoman,
    You don’t think weighting delegates so that they favor one candidates contituencies isn’t Anti-Democratic?

    If you thought FL and MI were so screwed up, why didn’t you and the rest of Obama supporters get behind revotes.

    Why, because you guys wanted to win un-Democraticly, and you don’t care about voters. You want rules that help you win, and you don’t care if a person’s voice is heard or not.

    I have responded to so many Obama blog threads that said that if the FL and MI supported BO I would have wanted to sit on them too. This is a big difference between Clinton supporters and Obama’s. I know for me and from what the rest of us on this blog have said. I would fight just as hard to get FL and MI heard no matter who they went for.
    Obama people are always about winning. CLinton people are for what is right. Now Obama supporters are beating us over the head with one or two issues that they know we care deeply about, but they are the ones who became Republicans by turning a blind eye to an assault on our Democratic way of life.

  145. elderwoman,

    Are you going to be the one watching those women after they have one?

    Yes.

    Are you going to set up the systems to try to get them to state where they aren’t illegal?

    Yes.

    Are you going to raise the money to take them to those states, are you going to put them up in your homes and transport them?

    Yes, and yes.

    However, I have some questions for you.

    If Obama loses (or, hell, even if he wins), are you going to bother pressuring your senators to oppose any anti-choice judicial nominee? Are you going to pay attention to circuit court appointments? Are you going to be in front of an abortion clinic in the cold on the anniversary of Roe? Have you been doing any of those things the last eight years?

    Lecture someone else.

  146. elderwoman:

    If you don’t know enough NOTt to vote for Obama, you can’t possibly be on the “same page” with anyone in this forum (I apologize for being so presumptuous as to speak for anyone else but I have been visiting this blog for a very long time and I just feel strongly about the issues that the like-minded people who come here support).

  147. ParkSlopeVoter, the context of the conersation has been RVW, so I don’t think it is sexist to say “women”, since I don’t know any men who have ever had an abortion.

  148. Mawm, that was my plea for inclusivity, as I (a man) am 100% behind a woman’s right to choose. BTW, from your posts above, I had the impression that the issue REALLY was election fraud, no?

    -MS

  149. What I say to the BO supporters who use this argument is: I do think that protecting abortion rights is important and I want to protect all women (even the young ones who think they know everything) but, the thing is, I just don’t trust that BO will do anything that isn’t in his own self-interest. And he will try couch a nothing as an important something e.g.
    1) claiming to be an anti-war activist based on one speech in his anti-war district,
    2) claiming to be an anti-apartheid activist based on a speech at his little college to a friendly audience, and
    3) being pro-choice, based on what?

    So, if he is elected and the senate turns rep. as a response, then where are we? Will he fight for a pro-choice SCOTUS judge? Does anyone believe that?

  150. elder said,
    Are you going to set up the systems to try to get them to state where they aren’t illegal?

    I read there is only one clinic in the entire state of SD where abortions are performed.

    By relying solely on RVW, spineless Democrats who don’t want to face the issue have allowed the right to essentially go away without a real fight. IF it is legal, but you can’t find a clinic anywhere, what is the difference?
    Democratic leaders don’t want to fight for your right to control your body. They slink away from the discussion, because they are too busy trying to woo evangelicals. They want to get Republicans to vote for them more than they want to fight for you all out in the open.
    Seems like a really bad plan to me when your whole strategy to protect a woman right hinges on whether or not someone is going to appoint a judge that may or may not uphold RVW.

  151. I still remember the days of illegal abortion. I was born in 1952.

    Obama’s trolls have stooped to a new low when they write stuff like elerwomen did. Be on the lookout for the faux “illegal abortion experience” trolls. The coat hanger can’t scare the women, so let’s talk about graphic bloody details of illegal abortions.

    This is offensive beyond belief to those of us who lived through those times. And it won’t work on me, because “elderwoman” wasn’t even a sperm and an ova in the 1960’s and 1970’s.

    McCain 2008

  152. Anybody, who wants to throw out the notion that BO is the far better candidate on women’s issues than Hillary Clinton, honestly, does not know shit from shineola and if elderwoman is an elder woman, she knows the phrase.

  153. Try meaningful legislation too, but that would be bad for recruitment of Republicans.

  154. I’m convinced that these trolls come on blogs to get us all off topic and focus. Certainly if their goal was to convince us to go for Obama, they must have attended the Claire McCaskill School of ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People.’

    Don’t give them the time of day.

  155. ParkSlopeVoter, for me the biggest issue is election fraud, yes. I believe the right to a fair election is more important than fear mongering about SCOTUS.

    It is very interesting, that the only arguments we ever hear from O supporters in these threads are fear based.

    Obama = Bush

  156. Well, it looks like obama isn’t polling quite as well as Kerry did.

    As far as the Row v Wade goes, there is only one vote difference between John McCain and obama. I checked, McCain does vote with conservatives most of the time in the past 10 years and obama doesn’t vote. There was only one (count it), ONE vote for “abortion issues” that obama BOTHERED to even cast. That was for the “unintended pregnancy amendment” to try to increase awareness of birth control. He didn’t show up to vote on bills that prohibited funding to organizations that provided abortions.

    He has NEVER voted on a true pro-choice amendment. I’m not sure I’d count the ‘unintended pregnancy amendment’ as a pro-choice vote.

    For what it’s worth, Hillary didn’t vote on the last couple amendments either, but she has a record of supportive votes before those missed votes.

  157. “I believe the right to a fair election is more important than fear mongering about SCOTUS.”

    Mawm, I am in agreement with this. Now, how do we get there?

    -MS

  158. Oh, I’d point out that considering his weak record, he probably should have *tried* to fit these votes into his busy campaign schedule to be sure he could point to them as a record if he was TRULY interested in the “woman issue” votes.

  159. kc, I agree, but I think this one was good, because it was pretty on topic.

    If RD writes a post about the Roe Ruse, we need to back in up when trolls come to guilt trip you.

    You cannot guilt trip them back, though, because I believe a lot of them are socio-paths, or at least kool-aide addicted.

    They can’t even see the election rigging.

    I will be fun to see them try and guilt trip Republicans. I will be laughing soooo hard.

    Guilt trips only ever work on liberals.

  160. ParkSlopeVoter,
    For me, the first thing is to completely repudiate the Democratic party for becoming the Anti-Democratic party. If a humiliating loss in November doesn’t get them to wake up, then I want a new party, a party built from the ground up with everything we have learned about Democracy over the past 232 years.

    Go PUMA!

  161. Then you are saying three parties? I’d like to think that’d work.

    More important though:

    1. Getting rid of caucuses (in favor of primaries);

    2. Outlawing “open” primaries, i.e. you need to be a member of the party in whose primary you’re voting;

    3. Best of all, getting rid of the electoral vote system, i.e. elect the president with a direct popular vote.

    -MS

  162. Mawm – I agree. We have to push back (forcefully) on the guilt tripping.

    PUMA

  163. […] of ODS. The Chairman Meowists are getting restless: And now we have a presumptuous nominee who we can’t […]

  164. think most of us have made it clear that Roe is a red herring.

    Back to other things. Pat, I think you’re right that this sudden emphasis on “women’s issues” is to protect MO. McCaskill is someone I really, really dislike and distrust, and there is so much buzz everywhere about what might happen to poor Michelle.

  165. I think part of this new “Women for Change” side show is to make up for the fact that Michelle Obama is not a convincing advocate for women’s rights. They have to Stepford-ixe her up with a “make over” (front page of the NY Times) to make her less harmful to the campaign.

    “Women for Change” are like the sister wives in an Obama marriage. They are filling in for the first wife.

    BTW – I think the whole make-over thing is insulting to Michelle Obama.

    PUMA

  166. @Arabella, 8 AM

    I like your version of botspin: “Hillary supporters are old and bitter. They had abortion available to them when they were young. Now they are old and they can’t find men to have sex with them. They are trying to punish you for being young and sexy and able to have a good time.”

    I guess I’ve done a really good job of subverting my daughters, 26 and 16. They’re both Hillary supporters, and enraged about the misogyny they’ve seen (I’ve constantly pointed out) during the primary.

    As for the notion we old ladies can’t find men to have sex with us …

    LMAO

    LMAO

    LMAO

  167. parentofed: I really could care less about Michele Obama. If she is to be sanitized as just “one of us” I am not buying into it. Michele has made her feelings known and let us not forget that she too was a member of that radical church for years.

    But I also believe that she should only be judged on her words and actions, not on a sleaze campaign that Hillary had to endure as well. That is not fair to anyone. We hated it then, we hate it now.

    Mrs. Obama does nothing for me. She is an opportunist with an agenda. Whatever she is selling I am not buying.

  168. But this is the New and Improved Michelle Obama. Now comes with Tales of Sitting on Daddy’s Lap.

    All the focus group loved the marketing strategy, that’s why we feel we are ready for product roll out.

    PUMA

  169. Arabella: I read that article too. What made me laugh out loud was her as an adult curled up in Daddy’s lap. For God sake she is almost 6 feet tall!

  170. If I hear one more so-called pundit assert in no uncertain terms that any woman who would support HRC would NEVER vote for McCain, I think I will vomit. How the H do they know what we would do? They haven’t gotten one thing right about us or our candidate in all of this primary season.

    I am tired of being beaten over the head with the Roe thing. I feel like this is why they could dishonor and disrespect us and our candidate — because we would always come back to the fold because of Roe. They seemed to have nothing to hold over BHO’s supporters, so let’s go with Roe for the HRC people. That’s why they can dismiss us still to this day and BHO doesn’t even feel he has to court us in any way — no, that is Hillary’s responsibility to get us to vote for the fool. Does she have to do EVERYTHING — she is only one woman.

    Also, do they think they can have it both ways — first tell us we’re old and menopausal and therefore unreproductive and then threaten us with our reproductive freedoms?

  171. I think Michelle is a tough lady and other than a few examples of disordered thinking, she at least has firm opinions that she expresses – unlike her husband.

  172. Not any more. She’s been Stepfordized.

  173. That’s too bad – I like authentic people even if I don’t agree with them.

  174. Pat, I agree MO shouldn’t be subjected to hateful attacks. It is just the damn hypocrisy of some O supporters that is so disturbing.

    Also, I don’t see that she deserves anymore a “hands off” approach than Cindy McCain or any other wife. I think Obama wants the Teflon on her as well as him. She doesn’t deserve Teflon, she deserves fair treatment equal to others.

  175. Also, do they think they can have it both ways — first tell us we’re old and menopausal and therefore unreproductive and then threaten us with our reproductive freedoms?

    It’s a typical Obama ploy to divide a constituency. This one divides older women from younger women. See my posts circa 8:00.

    Obama: Divide. Shame. Supress Turnout.

    PUMAN

  176. Of possible interest: Some strains of black nationalism/NOI decry abortion as the white man’s way of committing genocide against people of color. Keep an eye out for that idea seeping into Barky-O’s campaign.

  177. Nancy Keenan, leader of NARAL America, is Catholic.

    For many public officials, personal conviction that abortion is wrong does not extend to public responsibility. “As a Catholic, I accept the teaching of my church on abortion. That is my personal religious belief . . . As a public official, there is no question in my mind that depriving women of the right to follow their conscience is the same as imposing religious beliefs,” Montana’s school superintendent, Nancy Keenan, said in a Dec. 5 letter when questioned by her bishop.

    She endorsed Obama. Personally, I find that equation disturbing.

  178. And PUWOMAN too.

  179. Hi Teresa,

    Thanks for posting that. I didn’t know that about Nancy Keenan, although I did know she is useless as a supporter of reproductive right. Why on earth would NARAL put someone like her in charge? They’ve lost all credibility anyway, after their support of rape gurney Lieberman.

  180. BB: I honestly don’t know. Hiring Keenan is the “Bushian strategy” of putting a person into the position who is least likely to advocate for that position. It’s sick.

  181. It just wreaks of paternalism to tell us, as women, that we need Senator Obama to save all of us little ladies from the big, bad Supreme Court.

    I can see the ad already. Little Red Riding Hood is bicycling to the hospital for an abortion when out jump five big bad wolves.

    Then Obama, halo glistening, appears and convinces one of those wolves about hope and change (e.g. pays one of the wolves off or finds a way to challenge the wolf’s appointment to SC, clearing the way to appoint himself).

    Can a person be President and Chief Justice at the same time? /snark

    If not, I’m sure that Obama will re-write such an obviously archaic rule.

    Separation of Powers is so old coalition America.

    Voila.

    Little Red Riding Hood continues to the hospital relieved that she has not been “punished” with a child.

  182. I’ve always thought Roe was a red herring. There will continue to be “dusting out the corners” around the issue, but when it comes down to it, Roe will not be overturned. Just as RD points out, if it was ripe for overturning, it would have already happened.

    At the end of the day, I only believe there might be two firm votes to grant cert in order to take the issue on — Scalia and the Perv. As long as nothing presenting an issue ripe for overturning, it just won’t happen.

    When making a decision based upon the SCOTUS, I always am more comfortable on which candidate will appoint qualified justices. Making single issue appointments might save single decisions, but it leads to a whole lot of really bad law on the myriad of other cases to come before the Court.

    When I apply this litmus test, I feel much, much more comfortable with a McCain making the appointments with the check of a democratic Senate than I do with BZero. Anyone who calls themselves a constitutional law expert when in reality BZero is nothing more than a part-time lecturer which every law school in the country has is dangerous. It is akin to saying he’s comfortable with international affairs because he lived in another country while a child.

  183. I hadn’t thought of that point quite so clearly, that a dem congress might be able to stand up to McCain, but certainly won’t to Obama. That’s a great point. I feel like I’ve gone through a looking glass and am in strange territory, having been a lifelong dem, but I am hoping for a McCain landslide.

    If Roe goes down, then the legislature needs to step up to the plate. Everything carries danger; if we wait for the perfect safe situation in which to stand by our principles, we’ll be waiting forever. Yes, there’s a huge risk to electing a repub to the WH. No, I don’t want to stay in Iraq, no, I don’t want to see Roe overturned. But voting (or living) based on reasons of fear isn’t the way I want to live.

  184. If anybody is registered at Valentine Bonnaire’s site and has strong feelings about the need for medically safe late abortion, please talk to her–she’s on a rampage against intact dilation and extraction (“partial birth abortion,” in antiabortion parlance), which is to say late abortion performed out of medical necessity in the safest way given the woman’s situation. Bonnaire has posted clips, which I didn’t watch; I’m sure they are grisly, as are all surgical procedures. Is Bonnaire against doctors using what they determine to be the safest method, or is she against late-term abortion, or what? (She says McCain’s opposition to the procedure is in his favor, against Obama, but here I, reluctantly, have to side with Obama.) I would ask her, but I’m not registered and couldn’t find an email address.

  185. Thanks RD. Once again you keep things in this surreal political landscape somewhat sane.
    Best,
    SCL

  186. elderwoman! So nice to meet you, sweetie!

    Are you by any chance working from your grandson Andrew W‘s account at U. Maine, Orono? Darned sweet of the U. to let you do that … most educational institutions have all sorts of fussy rules about that sort of thing, y’know.

    Some of us other elders have mastered the intertubes and we can actually access the web through our own “electronic telescopes” installed at home. Something to think about.

    Please tell Andrew for all of us, “Good luck on that summer construction job”. Oh, and give our regards to young Andrew’s C.M.T. program advisers over at Boardman Hall.

    Maybe we oughta call ourselves, at (207) 581-… gosh, look at the time, willya? Hey, 23 skiddoo!

  187. ow! that’s quite a spanking for young master andrew, ron! don’t you know about the emerging views on the role of corporal punishment? or are you old school?

    we need to get together and do a master IP list one of these days. alegre’s new blog is getting some of the same traffic. the patter of little feet isn’t nearly as charming as it used to be 😉

  188. I expect “elderwoman” is out and about on several allied blogs today … maybe that summer job holding a sign for the highway department didn’t come through after all.

  189. campskunk, that is a great idea. I am going to pitch it to the Just say no deal people. We could get a lot of the PUMA web-sites to co-operate.

    It would be nice to shame these lying spammers.

  190. cellocat says that if RvW goes down that the legislature needs to step up to the plate. Why should we have to wait for RvW to go down? Why doesn’t Pelosi get going on some protective legislation? Why should we be held hostage by a Supreme Court of UNELECTED quasi legislators? Why should we go through this every 4 years? Here we are discussing our RIGHTS as though they are nothing more than a bit of political blackmail up for grabs by any candidate who wants to use it. I am sick of being treated like I can be bought by some false promises of protection. Make RvW a legislated fact.

  191. I’m late to this thread, but I’m going to throw in my 2 cents. I agree that Roe is not safe regardless of whether McCain or Obama wins in the fall. But last week, the Supreme Court upheld the right of habeas corpus for Gitmo detainees by ONE vote — that of Mr. Justice Kennedy, the patronizing, condescending protector of women from bad choices.

    Since then, I have been struggling with the possibility that the Supreme Court issue is actually more important than I thought it was. Because right now we still have (barely) five justices who are not willing to give Bush — or McCain — a blank check when it comes to executive power, (barely) five justices who are not willing to let The Unitary Executive run roughshod over a constitutional principle so fundamental that the Founders didn’t wait for the Bill of Rights to put it in the Constitution.

    And THAT will change if McCain is elected president, while I am pretty sure that Obama would not nominate anyone to the Court who would join in the terrifying dissents written by Scalia, et al.

    This may lead me to someplace the rest of you don’t want to go. I hope you all know and respect me enough to indulge me in explaining my views once I figure them out.

  192. Litigatormom: Do you really think McCain would nominate another Roberts or Thomas? Do you think he could get away with it? I can believe that McCain has gone over to the dark side on many things but detention of prisoners is one of those things where i think it may be just rhetoric.

  193. Litigatormom,

    I certainly know and respect you well enough to listen. But when you do share your thoughts, I hope you will provide some kind of evidence for your belief that Obama will not appoint another Roberts type. Obama has expressed admiration for Scalia’s opinions and he came close to voting for Roberts.

    My feeling on Roe vs. Wade is that it’s close to gone anyway. Let them repeal it. It would have to be done on the basis that there is no right to privacy in the constitution though, as I understand it. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Anyway, I’m looking forward to hearing your point of view on this.

  194. Bush has assumed unprecedented executive powers and extended many of those powers to the VP. I can’t remember any other president ever trying to change the balance of power as this one has.

    FWIW: I truly believe the lack of accountability I see in obama is scarier from the Supreme Court perspective.

  195. Look at how we never got the Equal Rights amendment passed, and wonder further about the lack of spine in the Congress. People like to say that it doesn’t matter, that we don’t need it. Yeah, right…. I don’t actually expect the legislature to step up to the plate, but what happens when we don’t hold up the standard? We get Obamabots…. *sigh* there are no good answers here.

  196. RD asked:

    Litigatormom: Do you really think McCain would nominate another Roberts or Thomas? Do you think he could get away with it? I can believe that McCain has gone over to the dark side on many things but detention of prisoners is one of those things where i think it may be just rhetoric.,

    Yes, I think he would. He said the Gitmo decision is wrongly decided. Far more than he would care about putting another “pro-life” justice on the Supreme Court, he would want to put another proponent of the Unitary Executive on the Court.

    I do think he thinks he could get away with it, because he’s gotten away with so much already. He lives off his unearned reputation as a “maverick” and a “moderate,” which goes unchallenged by the press. And his alleged opposition to torture is just rhetoric, IMO. He’s been at the forefront of drafting “compromises” on torture and illegal domestic spying that are really just capitulations, spending his “war hero” cred to help out Bush and Cheney. He voted against a bill that would have prohibited the CIA and other intelligence agencies from torturing detainees.

    I do not have a high opinion of Barack Obama, and I agree Obama’s stand on womens’ issues does not inspire a lot of confidence. Obama is a risk, there is no doubt about it. He’s a roll of the dice But when it comes to the separation of powers, McCain is a sure thing. But not in a good way.

    I’m a lawyer, and this Administration’s disdain for the Constitution has been a constant, gnawing pain in my side for the last seven and a half years. Bush v. Gore was just the harbinger of constitutional violation and manipulation. Bush has been trying to break the Constitution ever since. And I’m not sure Constitution can survive four more years of constitutional disrespect. We might succeed in dismantling the old DNC power structure — in itself, an attractive prospect — but would the Constitution still be standing?

    I don’t have a lot of confidence in the ability of a Democratic Senate to better withstand pressure from a Republican president than the current Democratic Senate has done. Even with a larger Democratic majority, I fear that the Democrats are genetically incapable of standing up to Republican presidents. Sadly, the Democratic majority was better at standing up to Bill Clinton in the first two years of his term, one of the reasons the Republicans swept Congress in the 1994 mid-term elections.

    Where does that leave me? I don’t think Obama would appoint another Roberts. Yes, he considered voting for his confirmation, but he would have done so on the basis of “he’s well-credentialed and the President should have his pick unless he’s a cretin.” I do NOT agree with that, but no less a liberal hero than Russ Feingold actually DID vote for Roberts on that basis. There’s no way Feingold would appoint a Roberts, and I don’t think Obama would either.

    None of this is to say that Obama would be even half the president Clinton would be, on SCOTUS or anything else. Quite apart from SCOTUS appointments, much of the damage wrought by Bush on the Constitution has been done by stealth — executive orders, non-confirmable Executive Branch appointments, jerryrigged legal opinions. I believe McCain would continue with all of that, because with the rarest of exceptions, he has been just as stubborn about permitting Congress to perform its basic oversight functions as the rest of his party.

    So, I’m beginning to wonder whether McCain isn’t so bad that I just can’t support him, either affirmatively or by abstention. I think its possible that McCain could do so much violence to the Constitution — not to mention the violence he could do in the Middle East — that it would become irreparable. I do not like having bad choices. I am profoundly angry at how the so-called party “leaders” have trashed Clinton, critical Democratic constituencies, and the very principles that the Democratic Party is supposed to stand for. I want very much to send the DNC a message, a strong one, one they can’t ignore or misinterpret.

    But I’m not sure I’m capable of just sitting back and watching McCain win.

  197. LGM: No need to make a decision now. My vote will depend on my goal. Right now, the thought of voting for either is unthinkable. But I guarantee that the DNC isn’t going to like whichever option I choose. It would be much better if they didn’t box us into a corner.

  198. I am enjoying the Dem solicitations I get now.

    I returned three for the DNC this morning, sending each one with separate reasons why I am refusing to contribute. Left my name on.

    I returned one from Obama, clipped my name out, and returned it, saying that I opposed his moving the Dems to Chicago (why does he get to do that?), and so on.

    I got another one in the mail today. I’m feeling so very communicative.

    Anyone else?

    http://nobloodforhubris.blogspot.com/2008/06/bludgeon-me-not-with-roe-v-wade.html

  199. I agree that the votes to overturn Roe are there until whenever, no matter who wins this election. I do not expect Roe to be overturned, however; I expect it will be undermined by several rulings, until it is technically still standing, but with little legal force. I don’t see what can be done about it.

    Litigatormom presents what I’ve been thinking about decisions like Hamdan, however. That scares me, and like her I have no doubt that McCain would appoint more Roberts Alito Thomas Scalia (RATS) justices. It’s a concern.

    But no point making any decisions just yet …

  200. […] where else to go.  It’s all about reproductive freedom.  Ok, we went over this last week in The Roe Ruse.  The SCOTUS already has enough justices to overturn Roe v. Wade and this will not change unless […]

  201. […] going to visit women at the workplace and subject everyone to pelvic exams. But we pointed out that the SCOTUS already has enough votes to overturn Roe without any help from us. Besides, with Obama now supporting Steny Hoyer’s FISA legislation, […]

  202. […] going to visit women at the workplace and subject everyone to pelvic exams. But we pointed out that the SCOTUS already has enough votes to overturn Roe without any help from us. Besides, with Obama now supporting Steny Hoyer’s FISA legislation, Roe […]

  203. […] threat doesn’t scare us. We’re pretty savvy and understand that if Roe v. Wade could sustain 8 years of Bush evangelicals and Republican judiciary […]

  204. […] threat doesn’t scare us. We’re pretty savvy and understand that if Roe v. Wade could sustain 8 years of Bush evangelicals and Republican judiciary […]

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