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The Enemy of My Enemy is my Friend?

/These are strange days. Remember back when we hated the turncoat Joe Lieberman with a purple passion? Remember when everyone called him “Holy Joe,” “Rape-gurney Joe,” “Lie-berman,” and God know what else? Well suddenly Joe Lieberman has become Barack Obama’s worst nightmare. Has he become our friend? Well, no. But I’m still rooting him on.

First Newsweek reported that Joe Lieberman has been “criticizing Obama’s leadership qualities,” and that:

In a brief but animated Senate floor confrontation last week, according to a campaign aide who asked for anonymity when talking about private discussions, Obama told Lieberman he was surprised by Lieberman’s personal attacks and his half-hearted denials of the false rumors that Obama is a Muslim. (The aide says Lieberman was “strangely muted” during the exchange; a Lieberman spokesman says the chat was “private and friendly.”)

Next, a aide to Lieberman told Mark Halperin

“If the Obama campaign thinks they are going to intimidate Joe Lieberman with these sleazy tactics then they are sorely mistaken.”


According to Greg Sargent at TPM Election Central, which I will not link to,

The “sleazy tactics” in question appear to be the Obama camp’s leaking of details of their conversation. That the Lieberman camp is calling the Democratic nominee’s campaign “sleazy” while Lieberman continues to hold plum committee seats in the majority is obviously untenable, though it remains to be seen whether anything can really be done about it in the short term.

National Review’s Mark Hemingway suggests that Lieberman may still be miffed at Obama for skipping out on the vote on the Kyle-Lieberman amendment and then excoriating Hillary Clinton for voting in favor of it.

The confrontation on the Senate floor came just after Obama’s speech to the American Israel Public Affairs Committee, during which he completely reversed course and said that the Iranian Revolutionary Guard ought to be a designated a terrorist organization. (Obama also used the AIPAC occasion to backtrack on other key issues regarding Israel.) Lieberman immediately called Obama on the “disconnect” between the speech and the vote.

Isn’t this fun? So while Lieberman may not be our “friend,” some of us may begin to warm up to him just a little bit. Please discuss or use this as an open thread.

230 Responses

  1. Check this out. It’s from Froma Harrop’s blog — no direct link to the post. She’s a syndicated columnist.

    Women and Obama

    They don’t like him, at least the women I talk to.

    Last night I found myself at a table with 10 women of all ethnic backgrounds, incomes, education levels. We were together to gab about Sex and the City. At a slow point in the conversation, I shouted out, “Do any of you like Barack Obama?” No one. Not one hand flew up. Some of them scrunched up their faces.

    This is a very big problem for Obama that has received little attention. When I wrote a column on it this week, I received a ton of mail. Nearly all my correspondents agreed, and not all of them where white women, the focus of the column. Many were men, and some identified themselves as African-American women.

    At the gym, a woman who often works out when I do started talking politics. She was a Hillary person. When I asked whom she would choose in an Obama-McCain race, she went silent.

    I told her, “That’s okay. I’m probably going to vote for McCain also.” She smiled.

  2. Well, Lieberman is smug and pompous, but aside from the War(and that’s a big aside), he’s a liberal. Obama does use sleazy Chicago tactics, so interesting that Lieberman called him on it. Obama needs Joe more than he needs Obama. Odd Obama doesn’t know that.

  3. Check out the National Review’s criticism of the Newsweek article –


  4. “When I asked whom she would choose in an Obama-McCain race, she went silent.

    I told her, ‘That’s okay. I’m probably going to vote for McCain also.’ She smiled.”


    Love it love it love it!

  5. Lieberman is a tough one for me to get my arms around. I like McCain more than I like Joe. But I think to most of America he’s an ok guy. Also, i’m thinking he’s quite influential in the Jewish community. I really don’t like him, but if he is willing to take on some heavy lifting for us that would be good by me.

  6. hlr: there’s a silent majority out there.

  7. ben –

    I agree. Am not wild about Lieberman either, but “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” applies here. Works for me on this one.

    bostonboomer –

    Fun post! : )

  8. As far as I am concerned, I will never forgive the nutroots for in effect running Lieberman out of the Democratic Party and running an idiot against him. That should have been the warning signs, people, as to what this so-called “progressive movement” in the blogosphere was about. Go after easy targets like Lieberman, basically force him out of the party, and then go after others like Feinstein, Daschle, Clinton, and others to the right of Barbara Boxer for not toeing their line.

    I will NOT leave the Democratic Party; that is chickenshit in my view. I want purge the party of the nutroots who have taken over beginning with Howard Dean.

  9. two states,

    It’s about what the Halperin article says only more detail. Obama is in habit of selectively leaking things and people don’t like it. In this case, he lied about the conversation apparently. He’s making enemies right and left. That’s fine with me.

  10. Thanks, livetotell. I just wanted to put up a fresh thread. So many people have been here during the night lately. I guess it’s not that late for the West Coast Conflucians yet.

  11. two states: That was a powerful article even if it came out of a GOP leaning periodical. He does have a problem. How he solves it remains to be seen.

  12. And there’s no one that gets under the skin of the Cheetos like Joe Lieberman. So the more we promote him the more they will get pissed.

  13. Two states,

    Someone commented on the Kyle-Lieberman angle on the previous thread. I think I’ll add that to the post. Thanks!

  14. the enemy of my enemy is my friend-I like that ! Joe Lieberman is the only thing that keeps Majority Leader Senator Harry Ried in his job so he should tell Senator Obama “suck it up boy.”

    If Senator Lieberman leaves the democratic caucus then bingo Vice President Dick Cheney is the tie breaker. Talk about putting Roe v Wade on the chopping block…with the Senate in Republican Hands and all because Senator Obama could not treat the senator from Connecticutt with the respect a junior owes a senior Senator.

    Be nice to Senator Lieberman Mr Obama or you could be the one to bring down the party and lose a few superdelegates between now and August.

    Again love you guys-as much as I love Hillary

    if that is possible


  15. “Politics is the art of the impossible” – from the musical Evita

  16. That was a devastating attack on Newsweek. But does anyone read either magazine?

  17. I have cancelled Time, Newsweek, The Progressive and the Nation as protest of the treatment given to Hillary so I have not have a magazine from them in weeks.

  18. I’m giving bostonboomer a big-fat-hug and going to bed!

    g’night everyone!

  19. My heart breaks for Hillary right now. My only solace is contemplating what awaits Obama in the GE (ex. Lieberman, Dems for McCain, etc.), and high hopes for Hillary in 2012.

  20. {{Pat}} I AM going to bed but I have to thank you for a million laughs today. Thank you so much!

  21. I read People the other day. I find their reporting more accurate than Newsweek.

  22. katiebird: Good night! You are one of the nicest people I have never met.

  23. (blushing) thanks Pat

  24. I’m out of here, too, folks. at work, i know i supervise a member of the Collective. He’s oddly quiet about things political. But he’s under 30 and liked Jason Castro on Idol. i’ve heard him make pro borg statments and i’m not talking about the Swedish tennis player.

  25. ben –

    lol – I’m a longtime People subscriber (yes, one of my vices in life). As vacuous as People can be, their reporting just might be more accurate than Newsweek!

  26. Joe Lieberman wrote a good letter to the DNC calling them out on disenfranchising FL and MI.

    I have to wonder if Lieberman also got unfairly smeared – the same elements, Moveon.org, Air America, who attacked him, attacked Hillary.

  27. Good night Katiebird. I agree with Pat. You are one of the nicest people I know too.

  28. FYI in Evita the song is “politics is the art of the possible” -sorry my gay gene just acted up-

    one ofr the lines is ‘…..one shifts from left to right…..politics is the art of the possible”

    love you fuzzybear

  29. Joe Lieberman has annoyed me in some ways, obviously particularly with regard to the war. however, I have to admit that a part of me admired him, even though I was a loyal democrat at the time, when the party left him and he said “screw you” and left the party. even if I was at odds with his principles, he put them before party, and I respected that.

    he was a PUMA before there was such a thing.

  30. Livetotell,

    Don’t give up on Hillary yet. She is very smart and crafty. If nothing else, she will get her pound of flesh. Don’t tell anyone, but for years I used to read People every week. BTW, did you read this in People?

    Every presidential candidate can use a sexy blond movie star to liven up his or her campaign, appear at big money events and rally the entertainment community. Sen. Barack Obama’s go-to Hollywood hottie is Scarlett Johansson, a starlet who trades frequent e-mails with the presumptive Democratic nominee, campaigns tirelessly on his behalf, hosts lucrative fundraisers and even appeared in that “Yes We Can” viral video that got 10 million views in its first week online.

    Michelle, are you paying attention?

  31. Something is beginning to niggle at my brain. Now that Obama is meeting with these “religionists” what is the expectation? This is a quid pro quo meeting. Make no mistake about it.

    Are they going to pressure him to appoint those conservative judges who may overturn Roe or overturn gay marriage? You don’t walk away from those meetings with either side empty handed. He wants votes. What is it they want?

    Inserting religion into the mix is less progressive than we have come to accept.

  32. Pat: Bingo.

  33. Pat,

    I hope he goes for the snake handlers vote.

  34. Perhaps Lieberman’s caution has something to do with his ethnicity rather than political ideology since Obama’s mentors preach anti-Semitism from the pulpit and Obama has had a very difficult time denouncing Wright’s views. If I were Jewish I might think twice about establishing even a political relationship with anyone who chose Wright’s and Farrakhan’s ideology and yet still claimed to be a mainstream candidate.

  35. To answer the initial question: The Enemy of My Enemy is my Friend? Yes!

    I have begun to see Lieberman in a whole new light since this has all taken place. It’s not as if other democrats in the Senate (or any other branch of government) are some angelic bunch, quite the opposite. Lieberman is now a powerful ally.

    What I find so ironic and funny is how much Obama has united so many different people—against himself. Sweet justice!

  36. You know, I was one of those phoney liberal poseurs truly believing that that likes of MoveOn and Kos were doing a great job, but looking back at what happened to Lieberman after what was just done to Hillary I can see just how emboldened, smug, and arrogant they’ve become.

    I’ve hardly come around to loving, or even liking, Joe Lieberman, but I now more than sympathize what he had to go through simply because he didn’t toe the liberal party line on every single issue under the son.

    I’m now convinced (and it took awhile) that the nutroots and arch liberal blogosphere are to the Democrats what the Religious Right and Neo-Cons are too the Republicans. Really, whatever happened to PRACTICAL liberalism and conservativism as opposed to dogmatic and ideological liberalism and conservativism?

  37. “He wants votes. What is it they want?”


  38. Wasn’t Lieberman Obama’s “mentor” in the Senate???

    Oooh. Somebawdy don’t like-y the 0bambi!

  39. have y’all seen the ads for Kung Fu Panda? is it just me or does he bear a striking resemblence to Tim Russert?

  40. Pat Johnson —

    TalkLeft just deleted a comment of mine in the diary about Obama ‘reaching out’ to the religious right. I’m puzzled because it was not particularly controversial. Perhaps somebody else in the tree was, hence they all got deleted.

  41. Pat,

    I fucking guarantee you that Obama will appoint the judge that overturns Roe. I can see it coming clear as day. He’s going to see it as a successful bi-partisan manuever and a big fuck you to the feminists who supported Clinton. He’ll fancy himself a victim of the post-modern who dared to take a stand in an age when we don’t take stands. That kind of bulwarkey.

    As for Joe, he’s extremely good on social issues and terrible – terrible, I tell you – on foreign policy. Even though he excoriated Bill over his affair, Bill showed up and campaigned for him in his run against Lamont – thereby keeping the Senate in Democratic hands. He owes Bill. This would be good time for some payback.


  42. bostonboomer –

    Thankfully, I must have missed that People article. Just about every time I read about Hollywood bimbos in People, I swear I’m going to cancel my subscription. But, what can I say? It’s the accurate reporting that keeps me locked in! lol

    Thanks for the encouragement re: Hillary. I do hope she gets her “pound of flesh”. She likely will one day – after all, she’s a Scorpio!

  43. prolix: Here I go again. After midnight, laughing my head off!

  44. I buy People for the gossip. Love it!

  45. Livetotell,

    I was just joking. That was from Politico. But it sounded like something People would like. Did you read the story? Do you find it interesting that Obama is exchanging frequent e-mails with a 23-year-old actress? Doesn’t he have more important things to do?

  46. Here’s the conversation from the Senate floor between BZero and JL:

    BZero: uh, umm, I’m sorry, I’m not going to let the girls watch you on teevee any more….

    JL: Why?

    BZero: While I support gun rights and all that, but umm, uh, I really believe that there needs to be some control under certain circumstances like, you know, during full moons on the Druid calendar and uh, uh, I don’t like it that you are never able to get that daffy duck?

  47. Pat and Prolix,

    You two could be a comedy team.

  48. hir: A committee has been formed to scrutinize every post that mentions Obama by name. If all comments are not prayerbook quality, they flunk. Obviously yours was not very complimentary so they decided to send it to the cyberspace bucket. Sorry, next time try to be a little more discerning. Big Brother is watching.

  49. Howdy Pat. Before bed is a great time to laugh. Makes you have happy dreams.

  50. I still loathe him.

    He’s just as bad as McCain and Obama on nuclear power.

    In fact the three cosponsored the (how did they come up with this name?) McCain-Lieberman-Obama Climate Bill last year that was one giant nuke power subsidy bill.

  51. Obama’s evangelical nauseatum only means we can throw the nutroots’ coat hangers right back at them.

    I really think McCain is more interested in moderate policy than Obama is.

  52. Lori, you are right. Whose the Conflucian resident psychologist here?

    I remember a thread going into the psychodrama of Obama, and the resident psychilogist said it.

    Is it Pat & Bostonboomer?

  53. *Who’s … sorry.

  54. bb: He is too funny!

  55. Hey there BB (tipping head and blushing) thanking you.

  56. Pat Johnson: It had at least 6 recommends b/f getting disappeared. I sense an audience-blog disconnect — not as bad as TM, but I’ll predict a slow erosion that will play out over the coming weeks.

  57. SM: We all have take a shot on psychoanalyzing him. We all drew the same conclusions. But bb is the expert. She is working on completing her degree in same.

  58. SM: We all take turns but Bostonboomer is the expert.

  59. bostonboomer,

    I saw it was Politico. But I actually think I recall reading a quick blurb somewhere (perhaps People, not sure) about Scarlett supporting Obama. Of course, it’s ok for Obama to communicate with young actresses – just not ok for Bill Clinton, who gets taken to task for everything he says and does. Hard to believe the most successful Dem president since FDR has been betrayed by his own party.

  60. joe: it’s funny you mention Evita. I was driving back from the mountains this weekend and the guy on Money Talk kept referring to a line by Eva Peron about how she would make a fabulous vice-president. The only problem, Hill’s not VP material. She’s Commander in Chief all the way.

  61. I’m a psychologist, not with my Ph.D. yet, but close. Why?

  62. Thanks Pat!

    Lori, Bostonboomer said that Obama’s disruptive female psychosis (hating his mom for abandoning him, loathing his grandmother for raising him, etc) has made him a misogynist.

    So there is no surprise if he is the one to turn it over.

    My arguement when the O-borg brings up Roe v Wade? We had Ford, we had Reagan, we had Bush1 and Bush 2, and NONE have done it, why would McCain?

  63. Teresa: Obama’s evangelical nauseatum only means we can throw the nutroots’ coat hangers right back at them.

    It’s hilarious. You get attacked w/ ‘Don’t be a single-issue voter’ when you object to the focus on candidates with less than desirable positions (mmm, mmm I love me a big tent), but now your only option is to be a single-issue voter.

    This is the reason I never got involved w/ the netroots — the constant hypocrisy. Oh, the other day they were championing voted-for-the-war and shaky-on-choice Blanche Lincoln for VP because she’s an attractive ‘accessory’ for BO. Unreal.

  64. Livetotell,

    Yeppers, there was a story on Politico today about it.

    Todd Pullam of Vanity Fair is probably at this very moment preparing an article about the cyber love child Scarlett and Obami are having. They are going to call the baby SO.

  65. Obama and Lieberman deserve each other.

    And your right about cheetos-to-go. They got all smug about expending 35% of total netroots effort and LOSING in the bid to retire Lieberman.

    And they’re touchy about it.

    Vewwwwy touchy.

  66. Boston, didn’t mean to paraphrase your thoughts, but I think it was you who went into a psychoanalytical mode on Obama one night and I remember you saying that.

    If I’m mistaken, I’m sorry!

  67. bostonboomer –

    Which area of psych is your specialty?

    Since I’m new here, I missed the psychoanalysis of Obama. I’m assuming the diagnosis everyone settled on was rampant narcissistic personality disorder?

  68. Regency: NoQuarter is “controversial,” however they have a wide reach. It’s good that your article is published there.

  69. Lovechild “Baby SO”

    Prolix –


  70. Having to do with the “religious” coalition plans: I think it’s bambi’s attempt to legitimatize his church (by simple association) with mainstream churches, those that participate, that is. Let’s see how many and which ones are so stupid. If it works, it would make Rev. Wright’s church just one of the “choices”. Brillant like a fox!

  71. Prolix!


    You rock.

  72. ronk,

    My guess is they are going to be a lot more touchy when obama goes down. I look forward to that.

  73. SO Obama! Love it already. In fact, they just counted that vote into the general election because SO would have voted for Obama given the chance.

  74. I wouldn’t dream of diagnosing him. I’m not that kind of psychologist anyway. My field is Developmental Psychology. This is the piece I wrote awhile back.


  75. If I were Michelle, I would not like my husband corresponding regularly with a glamourous young blonde actress. A couple of e-mails, OK, but regular e-mails? I don’t think so.

  76. hlr: Are you sure your comment at TL didn’t get rec’ed and moved up the tree?

    My philosophy at TL these days is that if it takes more than 30 seconds to write it, I don’t bother. They can be pretty delete-friendly sometimes.

  77. SM,

    That’s OK. You paraphrased just fine. I’m flattered that you even remembered it.

  78. good night all what is prayer book quality? I do not want to violate any rules here I love you guys you get me through the day and I am now off to bed.

    I am going to dream of Hilary as President and universal health care passing 430-5 in the house and 99-1 in the senate and Hillary signing it and giving me the pen-sorry I can be that selfish that way.

    I am going to dream we cleaned up the water and air and Hillary gave the pen that singed that law to riverdaughter.

    I am going to dream and for each of all of your dreams come true and that as the law is signed that brings your dream to reality, Hillary will give each of you a pen for the support you gave her when everyone else abandoned her.

    I am going to dream of a world at peace where every child lives up to there God given potential, where we have beaten Cancer, AIDS, and all the plagues of man, where we accepted and celebrate all our diverse differences and where we each can be proud we put the best person in office Hillary Clinton to make sure it all gets done-

    Yes I will sleep well tonight my friends.

    Love Fuzzybeargville

  79. If McCain picks Carly Fiorina or that Meg what’s her name who started Ebay, I’d have a hard time resisting that ticket although I’d hate myself in the morning.
    It would be a smart move.
    I’ll never forget how Holy Joe threw the Vice Presidential debate.

  80. Good night, Michael. I wish I could go to sleep, but when it’s this hot, I have trouble sleeping.

  81. I just went over to HuffPo because I needed to see what the opposition was up to. You have to really read the posts to get an idea of what is out there masquerading as enlightened voters.

    One of the diaries mentioned his meeting with the religious leaders. Some of the comments were funnier than Prolix since they are sincere. One devotee has him “living the Golden Rule” in his reaching out. Another has him turning this country upside and nothing short of paving the streets with gold. They go on and on trying to outdo one another with praise. It is the most juvenile flight of fancy recorded over there. You almost feel you are sitting in the lobby of an outpatient ward and they are waiting for the med cart to role by.

  82. Teresa: hlr: Are you sure your comment at TL didn’t get rec’ed and moved up the tree?

    I’m sure — I checked my comments page.

  83. bb: Me too. That is why I am still up.

  84. michael: That was lovely.

  85. Oh heck. The Celtics lost. Oh well…

  86. I still think Arianna Huffington is Ann Coulter in drag.

  87. hlr,

    Why don’t you ask Jerelyn why she deleted it?

  88. Actually, I have always suspected BO is a cheater. I have cheater radar. When I read he would text Samantha Power in the middle of the night “Call me”, I thought now why the heck would she need to call him in the middle of the night? But of course, i am being speculative.

  89. Prolix,

    Isn’t there a big hight difference between those two? How do you explain that?

  90. The hair teasing.

  91. bostonboomer,

    Thanks for the link to your previous piece re: Obama. Excellent!

    We all have our issues and baggage, but what’s disturbing about his is that it’s being dumped on the national stage and demolishing decent people like Hillary.

    I’m not a psychologist, but I do believe Obama is incredibly narcissistic and attracts many similar types. A narcissist is only interested in people and things who will enhance and puff up his false image. The minute the narcissist perceives someone is not stroking his ego, he dismisses them – quickly, coldly, and if necessary, brutally. We see the same behavior from the narcissistic Obamabots – nasty, ruthless, heartless.

    You definitely can tell a man by the company he keeps.

  92. Melanie,

    I hope this doesn’t sound racist, but I think Barack probably has a hankering for white women. I think he married Michelle because he needed her for his black identity. Plus, her family is connected in Chicago. I think he is that cynical.

  93. And I still think that Tweetie has a skirt on under his desk.

  94. Livetotell,

    I think Obama is more narcissistic than George W. Bush, and that’s saying something. I agree with you.

  95. Oh God, Pat, when I read that I got such a vivid visual image. Ugh!

  96. He does not appeal to me. Tall, skinny, ears. Bill Clinton, yes in his prime. Barack, no in his.

  97. Prolix,

    LOL You slay me!

  98. Pat, agreed and the reason his leg tingles is that his thong is on backwards.

  99. boston, my Dad and I think the same exact thing. Her father was a ward leader for the Daley machine. She worked for Daley when she met Obama. It’s really not hard to follow. Also, he was “bohemian” as MO puts it. He didn’t think they should get married.

  100. I experience Obama as being very androgynous. He doesn’t seem sexual to me at all. I wonder what our gay male Conflucians think? We’ll have to ask Gary and Mawm tomorrow.

  101. I’ve had to open my eyes and mind to a lot of people that, in the past, I would have not been willing to listen to. I’ll add Joe Lieberman to the list. At least Lieberman is consistent.

    The Obamabots are forever saying that we ‘have to vote for BO or we are going against everything Hillary belives in…” Huh? Who knows what BO believes in (apart from BO), one day he attacks Hillary for voting for the amendment calling Iran’s Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization….the next day BO is calling Iran’s Revolutionary Guard a terrorist organization. Why? Well that’s what the audience that day wants to here, of course. FLIP FLOP, FLIP FLOP…Republicans start your engines.

  102. prolix: Hysterical!!!

  103. I was talking about Tweety not BZero.

  104. Prolix,


  105. Melanie,

    Yes, and he was having a passionate love affair with a wealthy white women just before he moved to Chicago. She wanted to marry him, but he ended up dumping her in a very cruel way.

  106. There has to be a good reason to explain Tweetie’s sheer insanity.

    But listen to me. If asked how I spent my evening I would have to admit in front of a computer, drinking grapefruit juice and laughing out loud.

    I have no right to call anyone else disturbed!

  107. Pat Johnson, on June 11th, 2008 at 12:36 am Said:
    I just went over to HuffPo because I needed to see what the opposition was up to. You have to really read the posts to get an idea of what is out there masquerading as enlightened voters.

    Pat, have you seen the one on MyDD about Obama triangulating on trade? It’s hysterical. They think he’s being really progressive! Also, there is one about McCain’s wife where the diarist claims MO was “lower income”. I took him to task. My comment will be troll rated I am sure.

  108. Far as narcissism goes.. the vibe I get from Obama’s campaign in general is a lot of young(ish), cool and exciting crusaders who think they’ll change the way everything is done (including what isn’t done) and.. don’t know about the known unknowns or the unknown unknowns.. and when that meets old school Chicago style politics.. and an A++ marketing and branding department.. you have trouble.

  109. RD, I think the way Obama pulled Lieberman off the senate floor to “confront” him was pretty creepy and now he’s playing the same old race card against Lieberman. An “anonymous source” in the BO campaign said that Obama “confronted” Lieberman about not defending him strongly enough against the “BO is muslim” charge. The Lieberman spokesman then said that their conversation was “mischaracterized” and talked about not being intimidated by sleazy tactics. Here we go again with unbelievable divisiveness. What is he trying to do with Lieberman? He knows that Lieberman is unpopular esp. with his supporters so I think picking this fight was intentional. What is going on?

  110. Did you guys see the post by desmoinesdem “How to talk to a Clinton Supporter?” It was on MyDD and DK.

  111. Street parade:

    Isn’t it strange that just a few weeks ago Hillary was teh evil and now she and Obama “share the same values?”

  112. Pat, I don’t know if you can get it online, but the NYTimes Magazine awhile back did a feature Sunday story about Tweety.

    It was really disgusting that a grown man could be so pathetic. His ego is larger than Montana and not as well developed. From reading the article it seems as if his wife is just as nutz. And yes, they have procreated.

    One of the funniest parts of the article was that he kept telling the reporter (they met several times over several months) you just have to call so and so, and him and her, and them and those — well, when the reporter called them it was one of two answers, “Tweety who?” and “I don’t know him.”

  113. Melanie: His delivery was pathetic. Imagine either Bill or Hillary delivering the same message. Right off the tops of their heads. It also showed he had no idea what he was talking about because he could not even extemporize.

  114. Dissing Lieberman is a freebie for Obama. His only real friends these days are GOP.

    Let’s see Obama take a bold stand a diss somebody like Brazile, Rockerfeller, or Reid.

  115. Prolix: I did read the article. This guy honestly does not have a clue. Spitting and drooling all over the place.

    I read a book not too long ago about Bush. Something about Denial. Anyway, it opens up with the author and Bush having lunch together and they served hot dogs. A staple on the menu. The author described Bush shoving the hot dog into his mouth in 3 bites and talking at the same time. It just sickened me when I read it. Reminds me of Tweetie. Bet he does the same.

  116. I am off to bed. Hope you can sleep too bb. It is pretty humid.

  117. Pat Johnson, on June 11th, 2008 at 12:47 am Said:
    He does not appeal to me. Tall, skinny, ears. Bill Clinton, yes in his prime. Barack, no in his.

    I’ll take Bill now actually. Barack, never.

  118. Myiq,

    If BZero wanted to diss Brazile or Reid, how would he get a loudspeaker up his ass?

  119. Pat,

    I was just about to say the same thing. I’m going lie in the dark with the radio on. The works sometimes. Hope to see you tomorrow.,

  120. Night Pat.

  121. Here is for those who are trying to scare people into voting for Obama with the “judges” argument:

    He’s not quite the knee-jerk liberal base-pleaser some want us to believe. Here’s a blog post by Obama three years ago defending Feingold’s and Leahy’s vote for John Roberts. In some ways, it’s a very good summary of why Paul Krugman is right not to like him, and why more conservatives than you might think are drawn to him:

    That’s Andrew Sullivan aka “RawMuscleGlutes” about what makes Obama such a great choice for Dems.

  122. bostonboomer — ask Jeralyn

    I probably don’t care enough, and realistically, I expect the site to go by way of TM eventually.

  123. Night BB — geez, I sound like John Boy.

  124. I have a confession — I’ve seen BO up close — perhaps a 10′ distance.

    He ain’t all that.

  125. MABlue,

    That post was at the cheeto. At the time everyone was outraged by Obama’s diary. Now they treat it like the holy writ.

  126. good night Prolix.

    hlr, how tall is BO?

  127. I’m not attracted to him at all. Claire McCaskill seems to be, though.

  128. bostonboomer, on June 11th, 2008 at 12:33 am Said:

    That’s OK. You paraphrased just fine. I’m flattered that you even remembered it.

    Of course I remember it! You broke down his passive-aggressiveness and it made so much sense.

    I also agree, potential or current cheater, loves to entice the Mandigo complex and I think may dabbled with men in his Columbian snow days.

  129. Pat: I’m still trying to get over BO’s delivery during one of his Virginia appearances last week. I’m still not sure what the hell he was going on about, but I think it involved a large number of some kind and it clearly threw him. I guess math is not BO’s subject.

    It made me nostalgic for Hillary. She knows all the numbers.

  130. If anyone needs cool weather, fly out to the Seattle area tomorrow. Our temp got all the way up to a balmy 55 degrees. There was snow on a mountain pass about an hour from my house


    Off to crawl under a quilt and bundle up with my labradors. My husband is STILL working. Yikes.

  131. hlr,

    I think Jerelyn will get back to writing about crime and legal issues. I doubt if she would do a complete turnabout like TM. But what do I know?

    Jerelyn chided me one time and then other people ganged up on me. I thought what I wrote was legit, but I didn’t provide a link. I don’t know how to do that at TL. Once I pasted a URL and BTD deleted it. But I’ve seen other do the same thing and not get deleted. I guess it depends on who you are.

  132. bostonboomer — I didn’t think he was all that tall, i.e., not basketball player height. Perhaps 6′?

    What I really noticed was his skinny ass, to tell you the truth.

    I have pictures, will share at some time.

  133. Mmmm, Aunt Claire McCaskill, now there’s one that’ll trip my trigger — wasn’t she on Bewitched?

  134. Thanks, SM. I’d like to hear more of your theories. Maybe tomorrow?

    Night Teresa. OK I’m really signing off now.

  135. RE: BO’s ‘handsomeness’

    I don’t see it, but then I never liked Kool-Aide. I can’t remember who wrote this first but it’s the best description of him: ‘Urkel with a better tailor’.

  136. bostonboomer — believe me, my comment was benign, at least by our standards.

    I was responding to a comment made by txpolitico67 (I think that’s the right handle) who said that when he changed his registration, the lady at the counter asked if everyone was losing their registration cards in one place because she’d processed so many requests for a party change …

    My response was yes, they were all lost in the Dem primary.

  137. MABlue: “Not the liberal base-pleaser”. This means the election is completely up in the air no matter whether polls skew toward Obama or not. In the end, conservatives don’t vote for the fake Republican, they go for the real thing.

    I think Sully is a doofus. McCain in a landslide.

  138. hlr,

    You photographed his skinny ass? Maybe we can sell those to Scarlett Johansson.

  139. HLR, yeah, too skinny for my taste. He actually looks like a cousin of mine in DR named Danilo.

  140. Good night Boomer! Please write another psych post??

  141. Re: the Lieberman thing — it sounds like Obama is deliberately picking a proxy fight with Lieberman because he and his people *know* that feminists and most Hillary supporters don’t like JL, and this is their effort at subtly trying to win us over by saying “Look! We really do have lots in common! We don’t get along with the same people!” In other words, the “enemy of of my enemy is my friend” vibe is exactly what what the Obama camp is trying to project.

    Judging from the comments above, it seems to be backfiring, as people apparently dislike Obama more than Lieberman and are more likely to be pushed into the Lieberman camp than the Obama camp. Not sure this is a good thing either, though. For one thing, if we start saying nice stuff about Lieberman it could be used by Obamabots to try and marginalize us with people who are still on the fence (not that they aren’t trying to do that anyway, but this could give real ammunition without making them sound crazy).

  142. I’ll tell you this much — he is really full of himself, struts around like a peacock.

  143. I think Jeralyn is having a tough time with the unity pony. I don’t expect her to do too many Obama praising posts. hlr, she may have deleted the thread because it was OT.

  144. I though BTD was the only one who was gonna keep covering the election and that Jeralyn (I really love that name) was going to go back to legal and crime issues.

  145. Melanie: she may have deleted the thread because it was OT.

    It was hardly the only post mentioning discomfort w/ Dems due to religious right pandering. Registration change, a bit more explicit perhaps.

    In any case, my attitude is that she/the site can’t disappoint me later if I’m prepared now.

  146. Am a TM refugee and am very much enjoying this blog! Thanks, Riverdaughter et al!


  147. regencyg — She was the post author, and it concerned BO’s outreach to evangelicals. She also had one earlier about faith playing a big role at the convention and McCain reaching out to Jewish voters.

  148. I do wonder what the deal is with picking on Lieberman. If I didn’t write it before, I guess the netroots need another scapegoat now that Hillary is on vacation. The thing about McCain is that I can’t see a good way (yet) for the Obama campaign to start pushing vicious smears against him like they did Hillary. With Lieberman and Hillary it wasn’t hard – not that they’re alike – but Hillary is a woman, and voted for the war, and they blamed Bill for things due to lack of a sense of history.. but I don’t know what they’ll do to get the slime machine going against McCain. Sure, they’ll attack him, but there’s a whole other level of scorched-earth that’ll require some true inspiration if the Obama team can drum it up. Guess I should lurk on those blogs I hate and pay attention..

  149. But, hlr, did you think that post from Jeralyn was positive? I think every post she’s had since the endorsement has been luke warm at best. I don’t think she likes him.

  150. Robin, looks like you beat me to it on my last comment; yours wasn’t up yet when I opened the page.

    Further evidence for this being started by the Obama camp is that this storyline brings up the “he’s a Muslim” lie again (sad that this *would* be an effective way to turn a lot of people against him if they believed it); practically a gauranteed sympathy-getter for him among lefties and centrists both, and an easy-to-take-down strawman if anyone expresses belief in it.

    Speaking of smears, I realize this being my fourth post in months of reading here doesn’t exactly put me in a position to criticize regulars, but the “he’s a cheater” stuff? Really bothers me. That’s the same kind of crap people have been throwing against Hillary (and Bill) for more than a decade now, and it demeans the entire process. Yes, his campaign is responsible for saying exactly this sort of crap and worse about Hillary (and exactly the same crap about Bill now, I know) and I can’t stand Obama either (click on my blog if you doubt me; & I’m not saying this to generate traffic; it’s a free lj account and I don’t even have a counter), but this is completely NOT the right line of attack.

  151. Melanie: I don’t think she likes him.

    That may well be true, and I sense that as well. At the same time, remember that she gets perks like going to the convention out of her blogger gig.

  152. dar1a–g — don’t give them the traffic.

    I find it a relief to be far away from the faux outrage and hypocrisy.

    One the one hand you have the borderline homoerotic obsession with completely unknown politicians who fit some mold — like this Scott Kleeb in NE, for example. I say homoerotic, only because the netroots skew male.

    On the flip side, you get these wild raving obsessions w/ Hillary or Joe Lieberman.

    You don’t have to agree with Joe Lieberman to note that something is ‘off’ about the netroots.

  153. Picking a public fight with Lieberman is also a way of pandering to the anti-Israel crowd too while being pro-Israel to AIPAC. Both sides of the fence at the same time. Pretty cynical.


    I finally received a response from Ed O’Reilly who is challenging John Kerry for his district:

    Hi Tim,

    Thank you for your note.

    I have stayed out of the Presidential race and never intended to publicly back a candidate. The fact that John Kerry decided to do so, has no affect upon my changing that decision. I have my own race to
    concentrate on.

    I can tell you that I have witnessed some members of the Massachusetts Democratic Party using their so called neutrality in not so neutral ways.

    I am fighting more than John Kerry. I am fighting the whole power structure’s status quo.

    I hope you will join in helping me bring about an end to politics as usual.

    Thank you.
    Ed O’Reilly

    Checking where he stands on the issues, I like what he has to say. And I can respect his not publicly endorsing either candidate. If interested in possibly backing him as part of our message to the DNC morons who forced the Obamessiah on us check his website at

    Those you see following the Obamessiah are not Democrats, though the species may try to look similar. They are in fact nothing but JACKASSES!

  155. Good night everyone, going to my PUMA cave.

  156. FOX News had an ex-Hillary anti-Obama woman on tonight. She had a website but I missed the name and I don’t see it on your blogroll. I thought it was something like “NoDeal” or something like that… Did anybody catch it?

  157. mojave_wolf, I said it was purely speculative. By the way, it would never effect my vote. I voted for Bill Clinton. I could care a less about that on as a voter issue. It’s not a smear. I’m not implying any sort of knowledge. Just my hunch.

  158. Gracie7, I have had the TV on in the background while reading everyone’s comments. I jotted down the website and it is JustSayNoDeal.com, I’m pretty sure.

  159. Question, I keep getting a pop up with error has occurred. When I click send report, this window closes. It has happened repeatedly tonight. Any thoughts that might be helpful to this newcomer.

  160. I say welcome Joe Lieberman, climb aboard the disunity pony. This is going to be an interesting 5 months until November.

    I wonder if Joe will go to the Democratic Convention? Speaking of that, does anyone know if there’s a group planning a march on Denver?

    Also, did you see this — we are definitely not alone. PUMA dems come in all stripes, it seems:

    June 10, 2008
    Oklahoma Dem won’t endorse Obama
    Posted: 09:29 PM ET

    From CNN Ticker Producer Alexander Mooney, CNN’s Deirdre Walsh

    “On the same day Democratic leaders stressed party unity after the drawn out primary fight, one congressional Democrat said Tuesday he will not endorse Barack Obama’s bid for the White House.

    “Rep. Dan Boren, Oklahoma’s lone Democrat in Congress, told the Associated Press Obama is “the most liberal senator,” and said he has to listen to the wishes of his own constituents.”
    “Boren’s comments come a day after Florida Democratic Rep. Tim Mahoney also said he has no plans to make a formal endorsement. The freshman Democrat, who replaced Republican Rep. Mark Foley following House page scandal, told the Palm Beach Post he plans on remaining an uncommitted superdelegate and may not even attend the convention.”

  161. Well, apparently we’ve turned someone’s stomach at Talk Left. I apologize for my speculation after the Scarlett emails. I really was just being speculative., as I maintained. And, ones sex life has never been a voting issue for me, otherwise I could not have commented on it. But I will refrain from doing so in the future as it has turned someones stomach.

  162. justsaynodeal looks like another email harvesting site.

    My opinion is that at least 1/2 of what’s out there is astroturf.

  163. Phala in NC, on June 11th, 2008 at 2:03 am Said:
    Question, I keep getting a pop up with error has occurred. When I click send report, this window closes. It has happened repeatedly tonight. Any thoughts that might be helpful to this newcomer.

    That happens to me all the time on this site. Server issues?

  164. Hey Melanie,

    I believe you on all of this. And I realize these threads sometimes take on the nature of a chatroom, where people snarkily speculating bad things about Obama because they can’t stand him really wouldn’t bother me so much. I bring a more “public discourse” mindset to comment threads (I hope I’m not really as pretentious as that sentence sounded to me while typing it), and in that context, the back and forth reminded me of that horrible Vanity Fair article on Bill that clearly *was* a smear job.

    ’twas also sort of cumulative, and I can’t really remember who said what or started it, but a couple of the individual comments made me cringe. They might not have been yours–actually I just checked and neither were you, tho I normally very much like reading both the posters. Hope am not offending them by saying this. And now to bed–14 hour day tomorrow and must be up in less than 6 hours!

  165. Melanie — I wouldn’t worry about it.

    You’ve been around a long time. Sometimes we all write things we’d like to take back or didn’t come out right.

    Don’t worry about the thought police.

  166. Phala in NC/Melanie —

    Never happens to me. I suspect it is a browser setting/configuration issue.

  167. You know what is the most insulting thing, when Dean or others compare Hillary to Dean, and her supporters to the Deaniacs. As if Dean won the popular vote. *shakes head*

  168. Melanie, I agree, completely absurd

  169. My browser keeps crashing tonight too – it started about 1 1/2 hours ago.

  170. Yep, weird. Only happens to me on this site.

  171. hlr, I live in a rural area and just “graduated” to DSL from dial-up so I could actually participate in something like this without pulling my hair out. Will get someone to assist me with your suggestion. I, too, need to call it a night. Thank you all, again. After coming in this evening and hearing of Dean’s shenanigans I was ballistic. Vented on earlier thread since I wanted to catch up with everyone’s “pearls of wisdom” which I find so encouraging.

    Good night all. Someone earlier posted a wish for each of us to dream of Hillary signing our particular favorite legislation. What a wonderful wish. My hope is that we will each see those dreams come true, also.

  172. Robin–agreed. “Picking a public fight with Lieberman is also a way of pandering to the anti-Israel crowd too while being pro-Israel to AIPAC. Both sides of the fence at the same time. Pretty cynical.” Except . . . Obama is the new incorruptibly optimistic politics of hope and change! How could he or his campaign be cynical?

    Melanie–Just for the record, that wasn’t me at TalkLeft. I don’t read them as much these days except on my lj feeds–I’m waiting to see the how much I like their crimlaw stuff before I decide whether or not to keep it. Also, I don’t think your posts were the ones someone found stomach turning. (and if someone quoted you and not the others, either I missed something or my mind is beyond boggled). Even without the cringey parts, the discussion made me think of the Vanity Fair piece and Maureen Dowd tho.

    Full agreement though on sex life not being a voting issue (as long as everything is fully consensual etc, duh) tho.

  173. mojave wolf, good point about hope/change. what was I thinking? 🙂

  174. Which browser are you using?

    I’m using firefox

  175. Another possibility — I’m logged into wordpress.

  176. no worries, mojave. I knew it was not you. I was just thinking aloud.

  177. I am totally not feeling this. I now just see the Democrat’s as hypocrits. Mind, hypocrit I want to control Congress, but that’s about all I can muster:

    Democrats Still Struggling With Whole ‘Party Unity’ Thing

    By Dana Milbank
    Wednesday, June 11, 2008; A03

    It was billed as a post-primary unity event at Democratic National Committee headquarters yesterday. But the unity fell apart before the opening “thank you all for coming.”

    As 18 elected Democrats filed into the party’s conference room for the show of force, DNC Chairman Howard Dean, evidently not realizing the microphone was picking up his words, took a swipe at Sen. Chuck Schumer, the loquacious leader of the Senate Democrats’ campaign effort.

    “Wait until Schumer stops talking,” Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid suggested to Dean.

    “That’ll be a long wait,” Dean replied. Then began the meeting.

    It seems that nothing can stop the Democrats from taking the White House and expanding their congressional majorities in November. But give them time. They’re Democrats, after all.

    The famously fractious party is trying to apply wallpaper to the foundational cracks left by the Barack Obama-Hillary Clinton saga. But if yesterday’s unity kickoff is any indication, the party is less interested in rallying around its own nominee than in rallying against John McCain.

    “We have as a Republican nominee a flawed candidate,” Reid proclaimed. “His temperament is wrong, he’s wrong on the war, he’s wrong on the economy.”

    “Today we stand united as a Democratic Party focused on putting an end to the idea of a third Bush term, which we would get with John McCain,” said Dean.

    “In Iraq we have a war without end,” House Speaker Nancy Pelosi added, “and John McCain says ‘100 more years.’ ”

    In their opening remarks, Dean, Pelosi and Reid mentioned the Republican Party’s candidate by name 17 times, more than they did their own party’s likely nominee.

    But perhaps this should not be surprising. Walk toward the entrance to the DNC headquarters from South Capitol Street and the first thing you see is a McCain campaign poster (closer inspection reveals that it says “Lobbyists for McCain”). Hanging over the entrance is a banner mentioning not Obama but his opponent: “John McCain = 3rd Bush Term.”

    The negative strategy may have something to do with the need to win over the 18 million people who voted for Clinton. They may not have fallen for Obama’s charms during the primary — but perhaps they can be convinced that McCain is the greater evil.

    That strategy left the leaders making, well, ballpark generalizations about Obama. “He is truly an all-star,” Reid submitted. “If we were talking about baseball, this man can run the bases, he hits for the long ball, he’s really good at picking out singles, he’s somebody that’s a team player.”

    “We can be such an integral part of this team,” offered West Virginia Gov. Joe Manchin.

    “We’re all on the same team,” announced Sen. Patty Murray (Wash.).

    The Democrats treaded gingerly around Clinton. Each time her name was praised, the group broke into applause, with the exception of Rep. Jim Clyburn (S.C.), who held a newspaper in one hand and thumbed his BlackBerry with the other.

    “Her knowledge, her eloquence, her stamina, her commitment to the future made us all very proud,” Pelosi gushed. In her eagerness to praise Clinton, Pelosi lost track of what day it was. “Today, in case you didn’t know it, June 2nd, is the 45th anniversary of the signing of the Equal Pay Act,” she said. “We want all of those women who came out for Hillary Clinton — and for Barack Obama, but those especially for Hillary Clinton — to know that the work goes on.”

    But happy words alone may not be enough to win over the disaffected Clinton crowd: women and blue-collar white voters. Hence the need to raise the Bush-McCain specter. Pelosi argued that “women and blue-collar workers, whatever their race, have the most to gain by the election of Barack Obama as president of the United States and the most to lose by the election of John McCain.”

    Dean opened with the theme: “Senator McCain represents more of the same failed Bush policies. . . . Senator McCain has been one of Bush’s staunchest allies. . . . He makes President Bush look like the model of fiscal discipline.”

    Pelosi followed that with a call-and-response routine. “On George Bush’s watch we have lost 325,000 jobs just this year, and John McCain says four more years. On Bush’s watch, gas prices have skyrocketed above $4 a gallon, and John McCain says four more years. On Bush’s watch one in 10 Americans are at risk of losing their homes. . . . John McCain says four more years.”

    Reid followed that with a discussion of “this surreal world that John McCain has signed on to,” where gas prices are high and torture is kept hush-hush.

    CNN’s Kathleen Koch pointed out the difficulty in wooing Clinton voters, who “may stay home and not vote, or they may vote for Senator McCain.”

    “This is not just about Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton,” Dean answered. “This is about undoing the incredible damage of eight years of Bush-McCain policies, Bush-McCain economic policies . . . Bush-McCain environmental policies . . . Bush-McCain foreign policies.”

    Dean followed that run with a prediction: “I have every confidence we will be united by the fall election.” Against McCain, if not for Obama.

  178. Lieberman is not our friend. He was hated by many, including me, for being a Fox News pet who would gladly trash other democrats or democratic positions. The DailyKos was right to trash him back when they were sane.

    Trouble is, with Hillary, they pulled their own Lieberman against Hillary. That is why I hold them in as much contempt as I still do Lieberman.

    DailyKos and Lieberman suck.

  179. Just checking in

  180. I can’t say I’m especially impressed with either of my senators right now, and Lieberman lost me when he ran for two offices in the same election. But the story here is how thin-skinned Obama is. Very reminiscent of Richard Nixon and his “enemies list.” And we all know how THAT turned out.

    Obama seems to take it very personally whenever someone proves immune to his “charm.” He–like his wife–gets awfully testy awfully quickly. Both of them have such a sense of entitlement. It will be their undoing.

  181. I am going to wait and see on the Lieberman issue. I wonder after what was done to Hillary if we have not been “conditioned” to snarl at the sound of Lieberman’s name like Pavlov’s dogs. (PUMAs do not snarl on command)

    I did not like a “Jr” Senator like Obama hauling a “Sr” Senator like Lieberman to one side like that. I know the Obamatots thought it all masculine and action figurey but I just thought it rude.

    I don’t like Lieberman for his support for Bush’s War but he is a United States Senator, voted into office time after time by the people of his state and as such the office, if not the man should be respected.

    Obama acting all “manly” comes across to me as bullying. But that’s what the Obamatots like, isn’t it?

  182. Good morning all I had wonderful dreams last night ,asI hope you all did. Ya’all really put me at ease that their are other like minded people who want to bring the party back to its base and not throw that base under a bus.

    As on of the “alternative lifestyle” members above was asking about Obama’s sex apeal-nah does nothing for me-he is no denzel washington or Samuel L Jackson.

    I have found when confronted with Obamakins I ignore their appeals and ask them if we shouldnot work together on ensuring the Democratic majority in the congress is expanded. below is my response:

    “My desision to not support Senator Barak Obama is not up for discussion. Since I can not be cajoled or reasoned or guilted into supporting someone who I believe is a flawed candidate who can’t unite his own party let alone win the white house, we should consentrate on those things on which we agree. Lets work together to hedge our bets and increase the democratic presence in both the House and Senate.”

    There jaws are agape if the continue they get a “speak to the hand” jesture.

    Also, the side benefit of this is, to anyone else in you discussion group you look like the reasonable party and they come off as lunatic fanatical fringe when the go into orbit.

    I always stress I am will to work with anyone even Obama supports on improving the parties position in the congress.

    well off to work every one

    love Fuzzybeargville

  183. sorry typo occurred in last post due to lack of caffine

  184. Melanie,

    I don’t know if you will see this, but if someone at TL has their stomach upset about the Scarlett Johansson story they should take it up with Politico. There are very few blogs that are as rigid in their rules as Jeralyn is, and since when is The Confluence expected to be nice to Barack Obama? That isn’t our goal. We aren’t going to support him, and if they don’t like it at TL, too bad.

  185. Good morning, Michael. Have a great day at work.

  186. Tying McCain to Bush seems like a lame strategy to me. They are clearly so different. and the 100 years line has been debunked.

  187. Good Morning Hill Fans. I’ve posted here a couple of times having been directed to this site by one of the hillaryclinton.com bloggers (Evy). I have worked for Hillary, called, donated, campaigned and am now disgusted to visit her website. Nothing I have sent recently has been posted and I’ve just realised why. Everyone there has now swallowed the koolaid. Unless you are falling in line and supporting Obama, your post doesn’t show up. Well, I’m not falling in line because Obama lacks the character and judgment needed to do the job he’s running for.

    Recently I was on a lake in a paddle boat with a new friend who is a Republican. An unusal circumstance for me. It turns out though it is great because we can both bash Obama with equal vigour. We can even bash MO. Lastly it felt really great to tell her that I’m an Independent not a Democrat. It was liberating.

    So, thank you for this website and for giving us a safe place to be together. I have to admit that I’m still hoping for a miracle between now and the Dem Covention.

  188. Good morning, Ben. Do you think this issue about various people not being strong enough in saying that Obama is not a muslim is going to be the Obama campaign smear against McCain in the GE? They have to know that the “racist” accusation isn’t going to fly with the Republicans. It seemed to work for them against Hillary.

    Why is it anyone’s job to explain Obama’s religion to other people? Isn’t that up to him and his campaign? Frankly, I don’t understand his religion, but it wouldn’t make any difference to me if he were a muslim. I’m not a bigot. But I don’t think he has any right to delegate me or Hillary or Joe Lieberman to defend his religion either? What is his problem?

    You know, if someone went around explaining my religion to other people–whether in a positive or negative way, I’d think they were presumptuous. I don’t share my spiritual values in the public very much. It seems to me that when Obama decided to wear his religion on his sleeve, he left himself open to questioning about it. And only he can answer the questions–not Joe Lieberman or Hillary Clinton.

  189. Hi Marsha!

  190. I feel very much like most of you here about what’s going on.
    For me right now it ‘s making sure whatever there is on Obama comes out “sooner rather than later”. “If”
    he survives he doesn’t do it using the same “BULLY TACTICS”,against MAC as he did wlth HIL !
    McCain , his lovely wife and America deserve better than that!

  191. Marsha McLean – Nothing I have sent recently has been posted and I’ve just realised why. Everyone there has now swallowed the koolai

    I think it’s more likely that the web team is no longer employed by the campaign.

  192. BB: I’m speculating but I think the O people are trying to find a straw man to attack to get democrats worked up. Joe L. by what you’ve seen on here is not popular with rank and file Ds. I think what’s happeningi now is that this election is becoming all about Obama and that is not good for him.

  193. Pelosi’s comments about Hillary were good, but why couldn’t she say them when they counted. What the DNC is realizing is that Hillary voters are the real thinkers of the party.

  194. I will never forgive Joementum for going sanctimonious on Bill Clinton, taking a dive in 2000 by asking that the phony military ballots be counted and a few others.
    I also say, the last time RNC and DNC collaborated openly –
    like now on B0 – we got Joementun back in the senate.
    But when two of the people I loathe are at each other’s throat, I bring the popcorn.

  195. Thanks for the welcome bostonboomer and hlr. hlr I think you may have a point about who is doing the moderating now at the hc.com website. I agree with you bostonboomer about Obama and his religion. Although if you look at it a bit differently, everytime he has to defend or ask someone else to defend his religion, it keeps it in the public eye and keeps people asking the same question: “Is he or isn’t he?” So, perhaps it works against him either way. But in principle, no one ought to have to defend or discuss anothers religion.

  196. The Democrats are wrong to try and link John McCain to Bush. John McCain is very far from Bush. I think the strategy will back fire, but what do I know.

  197. Ben,

    What did Pelosi say about Hillary?

  198. That creep Sam Nunn is trying to rehabilitate himself:

    A conservative Georgia Democrat and then-chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, Nunn led the opposition to Clinton’s proposal to lift any restrictions. He eventually embraced “don’t ask, don’t tell” as a compromise.

    Last week, Nunn — whose name has been floated as a possible running mate to Obama — told reporters in Atlanta that he thinks it would now be appropriate for the nation to revisit the matter.

    “I’m not advocating anything — except I’m saying the policy was the right policy for the right time, and times change. It’s appropriate to take another look,” Nunn was quoted as saying by The Atlanta Journal-Constitution.

  199. bb — Dana Milbank column, WP.

    Also, it matters not a whit to me what Pelosi has to say now that she’s trying to pitch ‘unity.’

  200. If Plastic Jesus Obama is stupid enough to try the same kind of bullying tactics on McCain that he used on Clinton, the GOP elephant will stomp a mudhole in him and walk it dry. PJ doesn’t know how to win if the referees aren’t tucked away in his pocket. 😉

  201. Mawm — they have no other strategy. The party is bankrupt.

    Link ‘X’ to Bush was the strategy for all senate/house races in ’06.

  202. Good Morning Confluencians! It took me a whole hour to read the comments since I went to bed. What a night!

    Melanie, please don’t be bothered by that critique of your comment. This was an open thread and the comments ranged across a wide spectrum of ideas.

    While we’d be unlikely to write a post based on your comment, I for one don’t think what you said was even remotely inappropriate here.

    For one thing (not that it NEEDS rationalizing), didn’t it spring from another comment talking about an article mentioning that Obama & Scarlett Johanssen text each other 20 times a day. Which. Is. Weird.

    AND That’s just my opinion. The only one that really matters is Riverdaughter’s.

  203. I have no problem with a Democrat who happens to be supportive of the Bush policy on Iraq–it’s a big divergency from the party line, but no more than Bob Casey’s or John Dingell’s on other issues. But it’s Lieberman, more than the Democrats, who chose to (a) make Iraq the defining issue, such that he would support McCain over either Democratic nominee–and let’s not kid ourselves, he would have endorsed McCain even if Clinton had won the nomination; and (b) run against the Democratic candidate after he lost a fair-and-square primary.

  204. hir- when do you sleep?? You may be sleep deprived, but you are right. The DNC plays defense and can not figure out how to move offensively. All Obama’s campaign did was attack Clinton and to scream ‘change’ every once in awhile. Now, they will attack McCain as Bush and scream ‘change’ every once in awhile. They are hoping that they can scare and guilt us into voting for Obama. If McCain campaign with like Hillary with actual plans and numbers, the voters will flock to him. Obama is kinda like cotton candy– it offers instant gratification but no real substance.

  205. Here’s my letter to Pelosi:

    Speaker Pelosi:

    Your problem is you don’t listen and you don’t understand women. It’s been a week and according to you, I should be returning to the fold soon. Well, I am not. Neither is my husband, two sister-in-laws, two sisters, two colleagues and their parents. You have sold middle class Americans down the river and more importantly were complicit in stealing our votes.

    Let your new base, as Donna Brazile called it, bring you victory in November. We are taking her advice and staying home (well not really- we are voting by not for the INEXPERIENCED one).

    Plus, you need to talk to Obama about the kid page on his website. It is eerie and many people in the bloggesphere are equating it to Hitler.

    I would say good luck but I wouldn’t mean it. And like Brazile likes to quote her mother, the rulez is the rulez, I will quote Susan B. Anthony:

    I shall earnestly and persistently continue to urge all women to the practical recognition of the old Revolutionary maxim. Resistance to tyranny is obedience to God.
    Susan B. Anthony

    We aren’t mad, angry, hurt any longer– we are much worse—DETERMINED!

    I am one of 18,000,000.

  206. Good morning, Conflucians.

    I guess Obama has to find a new HATE target. He needs a HATE target to energize the campaign.

    I’m no Lieberman fan, but he’s a not a push-over. Un fact, Lieberaman’s ego is as big as Obama’s. Don’t start a fight with a crafty old lion, Barack.

    GO PUMA!

  207. This is all so bizarre, isn’t it? Lieberman was BO’s “mentor” when he went to the Senate. Now they are worlds apart on just about everything.

    I can’t stand Lieberman, but he’s free to go after BO any time he wishes.

    Yes, the enemy of my enemy is my friend, at this time. 🙂

  208. Mawm, the dems cannot use character and judgment against McCain, so what do they have left to fight on? As Honora points out, Dems will have to use the Repub tactic of fear/scare to get a lot of old dems to vote for Obama. I see today that the media is starting to focus on the potential new first ladies. The Repubs will have a lot of ammunition to use on that front.

  209. honora — this is what happens when I have big projects closing. Little sleep, lots of web breaks.

    Remember “tie Steele to Bush?” Bush’s homeboy?

  210. RichinPA: (b) run against the Democratic candidate after he lost a fair-and-square primary.

    He exploited a loophole in CT election law. BO and the Dems should be proud.

  211. Marsha- The AOL poll on my email yesterday was a vote on the first ladies. Generally approve, generally disapprove, no opinion. Michelle was 2-1 ‘generally disapprove’ and Cindy was the direct opposite with a 2-1 ‘generally approve’ rating. We are not as stupid as the DNC thinks we are.

  212. hir- I can not believe that I am going to say this, but I would vote for Steele before I would vote for Obama. Steele could speak without a teleprompter and seemed genuinely nice. Of course, I disagreed with everything that he said, but at least he could say it w/o a lot of ‘uhs’ and ’ems’.

  213. Lieberman has started a group in CT called something like Independents for McCain. I was have mixed feelings about Lieberman, who seems to have turned more Republican since he lost the Democratic nomination to Lamont. But he makes it possible that Obama will not get CT in Nov. Conn. is small but it is blue. Any blue state that does not go for Obama will show the DNC what a big mistake it made.

  214. Lamont’s loss could foreshadow Obama’s loss in November 2008 (if he gets that far – still hoping he won’t but not expecting anything to change). Win most but not enough Democrats, lose the Independents, and lose the vast majority of Republicans.

  215. They tried to do to Lieberman what they did to Clinton. DKos and their kind promoted Ned Lamont over Lieberman, and through their activism, Lamont won the primary, because a lot of regular Democrats stayed home. When it came to the general election, however, the people rejected Lamont. Lamont was a loser candidate just like Obama. He only appealed to latte liberals.

    People’s feelings on Iraq are a lot more complex than the Democrats want you to believe. Sure, everyone wants an end to the war, and most people think it was a mistake to go in, but now that we are there, and there have been security improvements in the country. I believe people are not going to go for complete withdrawl in 16 months. Maybe I’m wrong, but I don’t think I am the only Democrat who is a little nervous about complete withdrawl when gas is at $4.00, and anymore instabilite in the region will make it go up more.

    I don’t know what the correct plan for Iraq should be, but I don’t think Demagoguing about withdrawl is going to reassure people.

  216. I think the American people want withdrawal but want a strong President/CiC to make sure Iraq doesn’t go FUBAR (more than it already is) when we do leave. They want to trust the President’s foreign policy strength and they won’t trust Obama on it because he is inexperienced and more susceptible to the Republicans weak on security attacks (which is I think why McCain is polling ahead of Obama on Iraq).

  217. While I too have had problems with Lieberman (eg., he was the first Dem to lambast Bill C about Monicagate) there’s one thing I hope we can count on him for which is extremely important: being vigilant and outing Obamanation for its anti-semitism, anti-semitic groupies, and anti-Israel positions (despite trying to cover up). Even if I didn’t have so many other reasons to distrust and loathe B.O., as a Jew, real fear of B.O.’s anti-semitic beliefs and his comfort with virulently anti-semitic leaders, would scare me off! Fortunately, we Jews are vigilant…and are grateful for Joe’s outspokenness in this regard.

  218. Honora, thanks for the info on the first lady poll. I hadn’t seen that and it’s reassuring to know that so many others are having an issue accepting MO as our first lady.
    On the Iraq War topic, I can’t wait to see Obama go toe to toe with McCain on the war and foreign policy. BHO will look weak, ignorant, inexperienced and feeble. This is exactly what the superdelegates should have been thinking about when they picked sides. I actually hope they schedule some of these town hall meetings during the summer before the dem convention so that the Dem elite can see what a pig’s ear their candidate makes of it. Hope for HRC yet?
    Am I being too tough on Obama for this site? If so, let me know and I’ll tone it down.

  219. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend,” is an Arab proverb. Let’s see, it’s been sage advice when… oh, when we armed the Taliban and Bin Laden against the USSR, and when we backed Saddam in his war against Iran. Taliban, Bin Laden, Saddam, Lieberman — some friends. When your strategy is short-sighted and obstinate, this proverb comes in handy.

  220. Miriam–


    just gave that article to my partner, since, well its an open letter to white women heh, and the Brazile nut case won’t even bother with the likes of me (Hispanics) 😉

  221. Obama is in good shape regardless of Lieberman’s actions.

    I wouldn’t call some aides unauthorized (most likely) leaking of the phone call “sleazy tactics”… seems like a bit of a stretch. I guess we don’t know the whole story though.

  222. daftparrot, I’m sure Kerry said the same thing at this time in 2004.

  223. Re: Miriam’s link above:

    Excuse me, my whiteness is showing? F off, dude!

    If you have to accuse me of being an -ist, get it right. I’m being sex-ist, not rac-ist. I look at the big Zero and I see an unqualified MAN, not any colors. I look at Clinton and see a qualified woman. And that’s what I want!

  224. At least we’ve known where Sen.Lieberman stands,
    since he changed to independent.. Sen. Obama’s
    “Chicago ways” are leaking thru his image. Those of
    us, who’ve been free of the “mystique” of Obama and
    going beyond the “words”, have known hypocrisy reigns in OBAMALAND. Veracity is lacking and disap-
    poinment is in the offing.
    He hammered Sen.Clinton on the Kyle-Lieberman
    vote, on Iran’s Kudd’s Military Guard, naming them a
    terrorist organization. Then, he went before AIPAC
    and endorsed the same position that HE DID NOT
    VOTE for. “He is the one, willing to do anything to be
    elected”. How does Sen. Biden square this? How
    does Susan Rice who was on every show speaking
    against Hillary?
    I want us to take back the White House. We need the
    BEST person to do it. I believe in miracles.
    We need continued VETTING of Sen.OBAMA before the
    convention! See: rezkowatch.blogspot.com
    and read Yid With a Lid re: Birth Certificate. Sen. John
    McCain, recently underwent scrutiny due to his place
    of birth, and those issues needed to be examined to
    establish his eligibility. Why NOT OBAMA? This is the
    presidency NOT the city council.
    What do you think???

  225. Trolls Trolls Trolls everywhere, please leave, I do not go to ObamaforAmerica.com or whatever rock you crawl out from. You are not going to change our minds here. Your harrassment of the good poeple on riverdaughters sight has made me sick.

    When the gutless wonders on MSNBC said take Hillary out behind the barn and take a switch to her you lost me as a supporter. When the DNC said my vote was 1/2 of every one else’s then they lost me.

    When a child misbehaves they should be punished. The child in question is the DNC/Obama for America and their punishment should be direct tangible and longlasting. The punishment is to prevent them and there candidate form achieving the white house.

    I dont like punishing a child and it is true that punishment often hurts the parent as much as the child. When it has to be done you have to make sure you have the guts to accept the consequences as a parent. I have the guts and backbone to accept 4 years of McCain in Office.

    So that I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.
    Hillary Clinton 2012

    Love to brave people in the trenches fighting these drones.

  226. I understand your anger, but I’m disappointed at your total unwillingness to consider that a vote for McCain is a vote for policies that no honest progressive can stand behind.

    Keep in mind that there are a lot of us supporting the nominee. And if the difference is women over 50 (because Obama polls well with women born after 1958)– if the difference is women over 50 in this election, we won’t be coming out for HRC in 2012. Promise.

  227. the hard fact.

  228. Aghast:

    “No honest progressive”…yep, that would describe Obama. NO honesty as a “progressive” there.

  229. For those who wish to stay together in a long term commitment to the ideals and rinciples that Hillary Clinton has spent a lifetime promoting, http://Together4Us.com offers access for activists, funders, students, policy-makers and ordinary people to come together in support of each other and their goals for America. Please come to our website and join, use the code below to put our linked logo on your website and distribute our message and this code to all your network. Spread the word. We will be happy to put up a reciprocal link, your own co-branded web page on our site, or your own blog.

    Thanks so much,
    Gretchen Glasscock,

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