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Why is the party divided?

Teresa is asking for us to share our thoughts about this with each other. There is one thing I have noticed about Conflucians and that is we are rigorous thinkers. We have seen what went on and in our heads, we have sorted through the available data, discarded the shiny distractions and can zero in on the causes of the divide.

So, what is at the heart of this? Is it the DNC’s desire for a statement on Diversity coupled with Barry’s ability to rake in the bucks? And if Diversity, why NOT Hillary? Is there resentment and revenge towards Bill Clinton due to the Monica distraction? Are the Kennedy’s and Kerry’s blaming him for being a victim of vicious Republican tactics? Is it Rovian in nature? Were we infiltrated and set upon each other? Did David Axelrod apply Rovian tactics against his own party? Was it the media, the Villagers, the disgusting MSNBC frat boys and will they ever be appeased?

Put your best guess in the comments


213 Responses

  1. taking a slightly different angle on this, the divide suggests a larger challenge: how do we move from 2-party system to multi-party. with 300million+ people, we can no longer reduce our political choices to dems or reps. u.s. politicians are still playing zero-sum games. perhaps in 4 years, we will see a viable third-party. the clinton-obama campaigns have shown this glaring need.

    we don’t have two choices in november. there is one choice.

  2. “Is it the DNC’s desire for a statement on Diversity coupled with Barry’s ability to rake in the bucks?”

    I think it’s choice number one. They have been very specific that their idea of diversity is about race, however, and not gender.

    Apparently Howard Dean wants us to believe he woke up yesterday and discovered gender, but that’s just because now they are worried they might lose the women’s vote.

    And the money is hugely important. Dean was appointed DNC chair because his success in raising money for his presidential candidacy made them think he could do the same for the DNC. Now they’ve jumped to another fantasy moneybags.

  3. All I wanted was for all 50 states and the rest of the contests to help decide the nominee. We didn’t get that, though. We had 48.5 states decide the nominee with the DNC rigging the nomination at the end. Its just like Florida 2000.

  4. plural, yeah, the DNC has 4.4 million compared to the RNC’s 53.6 million. Incompetence, thy name is Dean. Illegitimate, thy name is Obama.

  5. Diana,

    Please explain how uniting the party is going to help the situation in Iraq. Be specific and back up your arguments with evidence that Barack Obama will get us out of there–or whatever you think he will do. I haven’t heard any specifics from him.

    And, while you’re at it, please enumerate everything Obama has done in the Senate to get us out of Iraq.

  6. Hmmm… no answers?

  7. Barack on foreign policy? Eek!

  8. I greatly respect Senator Clinton. However, my feelings about the Democratic leadership transcend Hillary Clinton. I was a Democrat for over 45 years but,alas, today I am an Independent. I don’t see much difference in the two parties and I truly hope for a legitimate third party in my lifetime. I am now reexamining my political thought process to include reality.

  9. Why is the party divided? Because various groups of the democratic party took the female candidate and raped her. Air America, Huffington Post, many bloggers including Kos (who promised in the beginning to stay neutral), MSNBC with Chris Mathews and Keith Olbermann, the MSM who wouldn’t give her side so her supporters had to tune in Fox to get a balanced view.

    But the main reason was Pelosi and Dean going on television before all the states had voted and pushing super delegates to vote before the contest was concluded. Then to add insult to injury, the undemocratic seating of Florida and Michigan.

    And about 1,000 other things – the list is endless.

  10. And, Diana, please interpret Samantha Power’s remark to a reporter that President Obama (as if) would take at least sixteen months to get our troops out of Iraq.

  11. Just received an email from Howard Dean. Now that we’re united, he’d like some money. They didn’t waste a second!

    Sent a short note and signed it PUMA.

  12. The mess in Iraq is not going to end magically with unity among Democrats.

  13. I posted this on Clintond Democrats and will repost it here because I think it hits on the same thread.


    “TalkLeft is proud to now officially declare, “Barack Obama in 2008.” He has our full support.”

    It’s no wonder the DNC has little respect for the voice of the people. No matter what insults they commit, they know in the end the people will fold and fall into line. TalkLeft seems to have joined rank and file with the unity campaign, and it’s a sad thing to see. It reminds me of the anger I felt when Hillary supporters defected to Obama, as well as the NARAL endorsement. What a tragedy.

    I certainly hope that this is not a growing trend. Regardless, I already have my feet grounded, and I will not enable the DNC to continue it’s tactics. My country comes before any political party, and even with McCain’s faults, Obama is the lesser candidate.

    A vote for Obama is a vote to reward the hate, the race-baiting, the sexism, and the arrogance that enveloped this race for the nomination. It is a vote to place empty rhetoric over sound solutions. It is a vote to replace experience with emotional hype. It is a vote to ignore the popular vote, to take delegates away from candidates, and to play politics with one of the most sacred liberties of our country.

    It’s a shame that TalkLeft has decided to wave the white flag and jump aboard with the “new coalition.”

  14. Blixity,
    From the longer perspective, I totally agree with you. We have very little choice. When the powers-that-be realize that the voters have soured on the Republican or Democratic incumbent , then they switch to another label but basically foist on the people someone in the same mold, so that their control over the country remains intact.

    Take Obama for instance: With everything that has gone on in this campaign, the cheating, manipulation, deception, intimidation, data mining and backroom dealings, is there any thinking person who thinks Obama will be changing the Bush administration? The only change is that this anointed candidate is black which to many is the extent of “CHANGE”. For those who really are not racist enough to look at a person as a human being, Obama is not the answer to our country’s problems.

    Then my next question is, how can so-called leaders force him down our throats? Is it because Hillary is Real Change and she has promised to examine/review all govt. contracts, no-bid contracts and everything financial connected with the Iraq war? Is this what really scared the invisible powers running our country? The same ones who control the banks, the insurance companies, the oil consortiums, AND the media?

    And so they create this cultist personality and keep people from really thinking, so that they would applaud someone with their votes ala choosing a winner in “Dancing with the Stars” or American Idol?

    Not only is the democratic party divided; the whole country has been divided into factions. Hillary has been backed into a corner and pressured into throwing her support behind Obama. But if others like me have sent letters to her campaign, she also knows that our support is non-transferable.

    The democratic party is divided because Obama’s campaign started the division early on: young against the old; black against white; straights against gays; rich against poor.

    Obama broke the party. Let him fix it. I’m definitely out of it for the moment.

    P.U.M.A. POWER! Let our roar rumble throughout the land!

  15. The Democratic Party is divided because the people in charge played fast and loose with the rules, disenfranchising voters in 2 states, discounting the desires of whole segments of the population in favor of the AA and youth vote, and allowing the sexism Hillary encountered to go unchecked.

    I will not be voting for Democrats in November except for my Congresswoman, Stephanie Tubbs Jones, who stood with Hillary throughout the campaign.

    Thank you, Ms. Tubbs Jones.

  16. The Clintons have never been part of the Democratic establishment. This couple has earned whatever the have through talent, dedication and hard work.

    They have never been truly accepted by the media establishment in DC. Au contraire, they were always viewed as usurpers, bumpkins and savages who went to DC and thrashed the place.

    Bill and Hillary Clinton did not come from some politically connected families or some wealthy families. We’re not talking here about the Bushes, the Kennedys, the Eisenhowers, the Rockefellers or any other “prestigious” family or dynasty. Nobody with any remote influence ever had the name Clinton before these 2 showed up.
    Worst of all, Bill Clintons came from the backwaters of AR, ergh! The ruling class comes is supposed to come from the Northeast, CA, and if we’re going South, then TX. But for Heaven’s sake AR?

    Remember David Broder – the Dean of the Washington Press Corp – whining about how the Clintons trashed “their” place, remember Sally queen moaning and bellyaching about the poor quality of the parties or lack thereof once the Clintons moved to DC.

    Jon Swift, in his uniquely sarcastic art, wrote a true magnum opus ton this subject, titled “Why the Kennedys Are Endorsing Obama”
    Here is the key paragraph:

    No one loved the Kennedys and hated Johnson more than liberals and the liberal media and they feel the same way about the Clintons. “Is the right right on the Clintons?” liberal pundit Jonathan Chait asks in an article in the Los Angeles Times. For years conservatives have been saying that the Clintons give politics a bad name. We look back with nostalgia to a time when gentlemanly Democrats like Michael Dukakis, Walter Mondale, George McGovern and Hubert Humphrey lost elections with grace and dignity. They didn’t go around smearing their opponents and cynically triangulating the way the Clintons do. Now many liberals and members of the liberal media are coming around to thinking we’ve been right all along.


    The Clintons are winners and that’s what we Democrats don’t like, although they are made winners by the people who actually vote for them and love them, something no “intelligent” person should do.

  17. ohioana,

    Congresswoman Stephanie Tubbs Jones is truly an amazing person. I’ve grown to greatly appreciate and respect her by her composure and role in this campaign. Good choice to remain a supporter of hers.

  18. I think the party is divided because the party “elders” hold the same basic belief that Obama does about small-town, economically challenged Americans – they’re angry, bitter people. That scares the hell out of them. They also hold the same basic belief that women should not be allowed to have too much power, because you know how emotional women can be (snark) and that scares the hell out them, as well!

    So they have to ridicule and harass and intimidate those who scare them, hold them down and try to make them ineffective, in the process creating a huge schism in the party. This time, the divide is too wide, and I don’t think it can be mended. It certainly can’t for me. I’m done with the Democratic Party. I’m staying on my side of the divide – the Independent PUMA side – and there’s no bridge they can build that will convince me to cross over ever again.

  19. Someone at Talk Left said Obama went golfing instead of listening to Hillary’s speech. Jesus, the arrogance knows no bounds.

  20. I think it’s the traditional division that has hurt the party since the 1950s. Paul Begala said it best: You can’t win an election with just AAs and eggheads. In 2008, we’re being told, “But this time it’s different. He’s black, he’s “post-partisan”, he’s transformational. He’ll pull in the Repubs and Indies.” Unfortunately for the Democratic leadership, Hillary was the one who proved she could cut across all constituencies, because it was clear, especially in the past 5 months, that she actually cared about the concerns of the different constituencies. Democrats ignore their true base at their peril.

    Additionally, I think that Hillary showed the commitment and determination Republicans have always admired–and even insisted on–in their candidates. Remember, McCain wasn’t winning the Repub. primary initially, but he kept at it much as Hillary did. The difference is that Repub. primary delegates are decided by winner-take-all tabulations. Pathetically, the Dems adjusted the method in which the nominee is chosen in order to eliminate the possibility of a weak candidate moving ahead of a stronger candidate. All they succeeded in doing was allowing a weaker candidate to game the new system.

  21. The party is divided because Bill Clinton, by winning in 1992, threatened to change the northeast liberal power structure that has existed for decades. It is not payback for the impeachment scandal; Clinton was given no Democratic congressional support from the very beginning of his presidency. Now the DNC is trying to reassert their hold on that power by uniting with the media to destroy Hillary Clinton. It has nothing to do with Democratic principles (or any other kind).

    I strongly recommend reading Anglachel’s excellent article on this subject that she wrote a couple of weeks ago.

  22. Totally with you ryan2483!
    I too used to post at TL and they made it abundantly clear, repeatedly that they will go for Obama if he is the nominee. I will not reward Obama with my vote. And I will double the jeopardy by voting for McCain. McCain was treated just like Hillary when he ran against Bush. McCain has shed blood for the country and I am sure that his policies will be what is good for the country. Besides, we all know that policies takes the president and congress to implement.

    The corruption/dishonesty/deception did it for me!

  23. I have been trying to figure that one out for months. Is it just that certain democratic elites wanted to have a weak president that they could control so that they could always call the shots? Let’s face it – if Hillary is president she is going to be a strong president, but with Obama who is naive and constantly restructuring his position on things (e.g. first he said no preconditions, then he said he will only talk with Cuba if they release political prisoners – basically parroting what Hillary said at the debate) the dem elites will have their way.

    Or is there something more nefarious at play here (i.e. as theorized in Tarpley’s new book “Post modern coup” (have only read description – so am not really opining on the validity of the theories))? I analyze the manipulation and voter suppression that took place (i.e. MI and Fl and the concession rumor that kept some SD and Montana Hillary supporters at home) along with the media’s Obama-love-frenzy that found it necessary to demonize and ridicule Hillary as well as attempt to oust her from the campaign very early on. In doing so I wonder if it is all just normal political strategizing at play, reflecting nothing more than a normal power struggle among dems. But then I recall how the media sold America (not me) Bush and the Iraq war and can’t help but think that clearly there must be something nefarious at play. .. some hidden agenda that the dem faction supporting Obama has. I just don’t know.

    All I know is that the media and certain dem elites badly wanted Obama to be the presidential nominee. And yes there was some sabotage from the Republican’s that contributed to Obama’s success. But based on the endorsements and actions taken by dems, it is clear to me that there is an internal power struggle.
    There is no unity. If there had been unity they would have all backed Hillary and not crucified her with statements that she was dividing the party and running a negative campaign.

    As for the democratic populous as a whole, it was absolutely necessary to divide the party very early on, it was the only way anyone could stand a chance of beating Hillary who would clearly have had the Black vote and Woman vote sufficient to be the nominee.

  24. The last day of the DNC nominating convention is the 45th anniversary of MLK’s “I have a dream” speech. Does anybody really believe that the DNC fix for Obama hasn’t been in for many months? They will stop at nothing to nominate him, and they don’t care if they lose the general. Symbolism, haka, and kabuki theater politics is what the Democratic Party now stands for.

    And that’s why I’m no longer a Democrat.

  25. Thank you.

    Here’s my answer:

    We are divided because:

    1. The DNC selected a candidate that has no business running government when the economic and foreign policy situations are both awful. During a time when Democrats couldn’t possibly lose, the DNC selected a candidate who COULD lose. They nominated a petulant child, who, with the wind and every advantage at his back, could only statistically tie in the votes with Hillary. Then to seal what we know about his petulance in stone, he refuses to exhibit the maturity that he could show by instantly choosing Hillary as his runningmate. (not that I’d vote for him either way. He isn’t qualified, but that’s for another post.).

    2. To ensure an Obama win, the DNC felt they had to destroy the Clintons, via right wing-like attacks. Many of us think fondly of the time when Clinton was president and despised those right wing attacks to our very souls. Coming from people we thought were FELLOW DEMOCRATS, the attacks were even more despicable. During Clinton’s terms, we had peace/prosperity, we had competence, intelligence. We were respected as a country. Now, we personalize that time AS DEMOCRATS. It was OUR time.

    3. In addition, the Obama campaign framed Hillary as a would-be assasin, with the nodding approval of the DNC and with the gleeful cooperation of the media. That she could actually be called an attempted murderer is beyond comparison to any smear I’ve ever seen.

    3. In order to destroy the Clintons, the DNC (Brazille) and Obama had to accuse not only the Clintons but Hillary’s voters of racism. Not only were we bad Democrats if we chose Hillary, we were also BAD HUMAN BEINGS. We reject that AS human beings.

    4. No subject of Hillary hate was tabu in the media. In fact, many of those hate-filled subjects were introduced by the DNC (Donna Brazille.).

    5. When the time came to make a fair assessment and resolution of the FL/MI debacle, the DNC did nothing but corrupt the process further for their candidate.

    6. Then there was the sexism. Ah the sexism, now they have to address it. Dean now admits that the media acted like a bunch of middle-school bullies. Where was he 3 months ago? Answer, safely hidden away in the tank.

    7. And now, forced out of the election process when no MAN has ever been forced out until the convention, the media narrative from here on will be that she didn’t do enough. If Obama loses she will be blamed, while the DNC nods. Even knowing that, it feels like another effort to extort our votes. She is being set up as the scapegoat for the mistakes the Obama/Axelrove campaign and their DNC BRETHREN made. When the Democrats couldn’t possibly lose, they nominated a candidate who could lose. But that’s Hillary’s fault.

    So why are we divided? Because we’ve been shit on and shafted throughout the process. And now they, of course, are very, very, sorry. But it’s too late, baby, you are despicable..

  26. I think we have to admit it; the Party is so divided because people who think what we think, were out organized. Move On, Kos, Huffington and that elitist ilk raised tens of millions of dollars, they organized their base, they mobilized their voters and they took advantage of a pliant media. The seeds of Obama’s victory were planted 8 years ago when when move on organized Howard Dean’s election as Party Chair. Theose seeds sprouted two years ago when Nancy Pelosi defeated Steny Hoyer to become speaker of the House. They seeds were nurtured still further when the Democratic Party came to rely so heavily on caucuses that provided an overwhelming advantage to a candidate whose support was concentrated among the young.

    I’ve left the party (after 40 years as a Democrat) and become an independent. If we ever want to get our party back, we need to organize as capably as our opponents. We need to raise money and we need leadership. Pumapac is a start. Riverdaughter’s work here is a tremendous contribution. But if we really want to succeed, we need so much more. What happened here was really not a coup d’ etat as some have claimed. The party has been slipping away from us for eight years. If we want it back, it will take time, grit and determination. Every journey begins witht the first step.

  27. According to Rasmussen, voters trust McCain more than Obama on National Security and Iraq. At the same time, 59% want the troops to leave Iraq in one year. Why is that?

  28. Diana Calabrese:

    If you want more dead soldiers & more tax dollars flooding into a war that Bush lost, knock yourself out & vote for McCain.

    I don’t think that type of atrocious blackmail is the way to go.

  29. I have to disagree with Diana Calabrese.

    Obama did give the 16 month deadline… and then his then foreign policy advisor Samantha Powers went on to TV and said it was basically campaign pandering. Just like Rev Wright said. Just like Obama has proven with his preconditions/preparations gaffe. And the Iran is/isn’t a threat gaffe.

    McCain went AGAINST his party to demand Rumsfeld to step down. McCain led the changes in the surge that now has it working. McCain recognized the problem with retention in the armed forces, which Obama has yet to understand.

    I am a soldier, getting ready to deploy for my second time after being stop loss. McCain does not scare me. Obama does.

  30. The old Democratic insiders, like the Kennedys, never accepted new Democratic leaders, like the Clintons and Carter. Therefore those people never had the support that they otherwise would have. BC’s escapade didn’t help either. After all, Ted did not help the Democratic Party with the death of Mary Joe, but all was forgiven. Now they are looking for the so called new Democrats, like Obama, for the next generation. It’s OK by me. I belong to the P.U.M.A. pac., and the DNC can go Cheney itself.

  31. If Obama loses in November, I can already hear the pundits, “the happiest person tonight isn’t McCain, its Hillary Clinton.” Then all the fauxgressives will stop being nice and go back to being the abusers they are.

  32. I left the party because the party is dishonest in how they selected this race’s nominee. I can’t support that or the candidate who benefits from that, and I won’t. If the party had followed it’s own rules and addressed the sexism in the MSM before now, the party wouldn’t be divided.

  33. It’s all about the money. The DNC thinks that Obama is their meal ticket whether he wins the presidency or not. So, the DNC pressured supers to support him. That’s why the party is divided. The DNC wants money and did what it had to do to get it.

    Obama is an illegitimate candidate who needed the DNC to drag him across the finish line and throw hurdle after hurdle in front of Hillary. But the DNC doesn’t care. They want his donor lists and his money. The DNC got the candidate it wanted, no matter how much it had to break the rules to get him there.

    I don’t know that I’ll vote for McCain, but there’s no way in hell I’m voting for Obama.

  34. The party is divided because some people will climb on any band wagon that goes by and support any candidate that sends a tingle up their leg.

    Others get upset with corruption, voter suppression, rampant sexism, and other acts of malfeasance.

    Many of those that supported Senator Clinton so loudly and proudly a day or two ago are jumping ship in droves to get back in line like good little Democratic Robots. Seems to me it wasn’t all that long ago that the left was making fun of the conservatives for doing the same damn thing. I guess hypocrisy is bi-partisan.


  35. Interesting that Hillary specifically mentioned Gay / Straight — I am hoping this is another wedge issue and this drives out the right wing. I am a lesbian and am used to this issue being front and center. Barry doesn’t like the Gay/Lesbian community (he refused to have his photo taken with SF Mayor Gavin Newsome) but we know he’ll do anything to win. McCain has my vote this election.

    Hillary 2012 !!

  36. Hillary Democrats for Nobody

    I’m not for Obama at this point
    I’m not for McCain at this point

    But, I do know this that the somewhat racist rhetoric and Republican talking points on some ‘democratic’ blogs do nothing for me.

    There are many reasons to be unsure of Mr Obama as a presidential candidate. His connections with black groups that I would lump in with the KKK is one of them. His lack of experience is another.

    This is the response I wrote to a friend of mine who accused me of being ‘negative’ in not supporting Mr Obama.

    You mentioned the frustration you feel with ‘The Old Coalition’. Just thought I would try to explain where at least some of us are coming from.

    It isn’t that I want to stand in the way of ‘solutions’, just that I don’t see any candidate as having solutions for the problems I perceive this country as having.

    McCain is an old line conservative … just get out of the way and let the free market do what it will without intervention. If people, countries and societies get hurt in the process, no matter. They are just collateral damage. Sorry, I just don’t have that much faith in unrestrained capitalism.

    Obama is a motivator. His rhetoric lifts the heart and makes people believe that anything is possible. But the reality is that we live in a cold, calculating, uncaring world. Humanity dreamed for thousands of years of the possibility of flight. But all the believing did nothing until engineers came along and built the machines that finally allow us to fly. We have huge structural and systemic problems to solve – and all I see in Obama is another preacher saying if we just believe enough we can accomplish anything. To me it is just bull.

    Hillary is the engineer. She both identifies the problems and has detailed wonkish plans that might actually do some good. But she is a woman. And of course we can’t actually allow a competent woman to do anything. Just go to the back of the bus where you belong, and take your unfortunate coalition of Old People, Latinos and Insufficiently Aware White People with you, Hillary. We don’t need any of you because we believe in the magic and besides you are all racist anyway.

    But I don’t get any choices other than the ‘tired old man’ and the ‘dreamer’. I don’t see in either one of them someone I trust to lead us through difficult times. So, I am supposed to just get on board and hope that one or the other of them actually has the ‘stuff’ to get us through this mess. The Republicans are a bunch of crooks who don’t even have the ability to be ashamed and the Democrats seem intent on following the Pied Piper over the cliff (oh goody, another ‘We Are the World’ moment). Where am I supposed to get a positive feeling from this mess.

  37. It’s all of the reasons listed and more. The “more” for me is the total lack of respect the senior leadership has demonstrated for the very people who have supported and believed in the Party. My grandfather was a party worker in Philadelphia, my aunt a union organizer in Atlantic City, and my entire family of working class men and women have always voted for the Democratic Party.

    To hear democratic leadership types say during this campaign that they don’t need my family, that they’re building a “new party” that’s better educated, more urbane and sophisticated [whatever the hell that means] turns my stomach. And my vote.

    Btw, I was the first woman in my family to attend a university. I don’t take kindly to being blasted by racist labels and I do understand when an individual’s rhetoric is empty of substance. Hopey-dopey change doesn’t send a tingle down my leg, anymore than false flattery or make nice requests do.

    I’m no longer divided. I’m no longer a Democrat.

  38. Diana,

    He said something? That’s your evidence? Not good enough. And you didn’t address the Samantha Power statement that he wouldn’t be doing what he promised; nor did you explain why Obama didn’t lift a finger to do anything about this in the Senate. He just isn’t credible. People with brains and ability to reason don’t trust people who have no track record, who change their minds constantly, and who have a long history of political corruption. Now run along back to whereever you came from. This isn’t the right blog for you. Or consider starting your own blog at http://www.wordpress.com.

    I’ll be deleting your blackmail comment above. We don’t allow that here. at The Confluence.

  39. MA Blue: It’s not blackmail, it’s an obvious consequence of having one candidate vs. another. Even though it sucks.

  40. Why Is the Party Divided

    I am embarrassed to say, that for all my years in politics, there is a lot I did not know. I attended the DNC meeting 5/31/08 and was absolutely dumbfounded by their arrogance, partisanship, nastiness, power grabbing and just plain disregard and contempt for voters.

    Add to that the contempt for women and the billionaires media who have made a joke out of journalism as a profession, we got nothing but ourselves.

    I heard Hillary Clinton talk about the Democatic party as family. Well…no. Prehaps many of her supporters are not as dysfunctional as the party leadership. Because we admire and supported her is not the basic reason for supporting a ticket that I believe was predetermined by the DNC and that this is an non legal result. The Democratic Party wanted and African America to win this election. I would like that too but not above a competent, knowledgeable and
    proven candidate who is a female.

    If we are too succeed in any change, we have to be organized and resolute. Personally, I say vote against the party, not clinton.

    Don’t support the Party. It is no longer ours. This is a chance to stop them now.

  41. OT/Request:

    Dear Riverdaughter. Many of us are coming from other sites that are now officially mounted on the phony unity pony. We’d love to join you here.
    Have one request; would it be possible to have threaded conversations?
    Reply to comments. etc. Thanks for considering it. And thank you for
    giving us a forum here.

  42. Because we’re saddled with atrocious $%^&wits who don’t give a rat’s ass about anyone except their fellow overclass twits and heap contempt on everyone who isn’t just like them? And they think they can blackmail us into putting them in power so they can rebrand this party in the shape of the Republicans and further marginalize anyone who believes in Democratic and democratic principles while they churn out bumper stickers and head to photo ops?

    took a shot there.

  43. Emma, I think the money angle is a red herring. Hillary could raise just as much funds and has proven it. The media mogul that owns NBC and Fox provide much more financial support by talking up Obama. So we should really wonder why they did it. General Electric that owns NBC has a lot of govt. contracts and perhaps feel threatened by Hillary’s promise to look into all defense related/war related contracts with the govt. the insurance companies which are probably owned or controlled by the same people are threatened by Hillary’s Universal health Care proposal. The fat cats behind Obama are threatened by Hillary’s policies. But Obama they know is ‘controllable’ just as long as he is promised the nomination and the presidency.

    If in November, there are anomalies at the voting places, such as machine malfunctions, then we might suspect that the Bush family may even secretly support Obama because they don’t like McCain for the same reasons they hate Hillary.

    Too many things just don’t lend themselves to obvious explanations. My conclusion is that there is something nefarious or sinister about the whole thing.

  44. I loved it in her speech when she mentioned the female astronauts. It reminded me that when she was young, she wanted to be an astronaut and was told they didn’t take women.

    Well, now they do. And maybe someday someday the same will be true for a president.

  45. Also, on the war? I believe the McCain is the only one who can get us out. I never thought that either Obama or Clinton could do it, but given how impressive Hillary has been I was willing to give her a chance. Not so with Obama.

    After the surge, McCain is going to make the case that we can win in Iraq through military force. And it will work because Americans WANT to WIN in Iraq. They don’t want to just leave or draw down troops. It’s not just about bringing the troops home, it’s about winning.

    Obama doesn’t want to win, he doesn’t think winning is possible, but he knows we can’t leave. So what he really wants is a lower profile for U.S. troops who will remain in Iraq or in nearby countries. He knows we can’t leave, but he can’t say that. He can’t talk about winning, like McCain can, because he’s supposed to be about ending the war. Where does that leave him? A typical dovish dem with no credentials and no plan on this issue.

    It turns his stance on Iraq from a positive in the primaries to a huge liability in the GE. So, expect him to try to turn hard right on this, like he’s doing with Israel. But it’s a pivot he won’t be able to make convincingly.

    IMO, a vote to end the war = a vote for McCain. A vote to contine on in Iraq in the same limbo we’re doing today = a vote for Obama.

  46. Emma,
    In the finaly analysis, you are right: it is all about money. Just not the kind of money for the Democratic party that you mentioned.

  47. Rich,

    Claims like Diana’s have to be backed up with evidence; otherwise they are only guilt-trips (emotional blackmail). Obama has never lifted a finger to do anything about the war in Iraq. He made one speech. As McCain points out, Obama hasn’t even made a serious effort to visit Iraq and see what is happening there. There is zero evidence of what he is planning to do or what he will be able to do, considering his lack of experience and his stumbling, bumbling public behavior.

  48. You are being bamboozled:

  49. felizarte,

    You may be correct about the red herring. I tend to think that, even in politics, it’s the simplest explanation that usually is correct. In this case, that’s the money, I think. It may be that the DNC is simply wrong about how much money Obama will bring in, I think you’re right about that.

  50. Following Rod’s point (OT as well), Diaries would be nice too.

    Back on topic, if the Democratic Party is a family, then we’re like the rebellious teenagers. Some moved out and are estranged.

  51. “I have to disagree with Diana Calabrese.

    Obama did give the 16 month deadline… and then his then foreign policy advisor Samantha Powers went on to TV and said it was basically campaign pandering. Just like Rev Wright said. Just like Obama has proven with his preconditions/preparations gaffe. And the Iran is/isn’t a threat gaffe.

    McCain went AGAINST his party to demand Rumsfeld to step down. McCain led the changes in the surge that now has it working. McCain recognized the problem with retention in the armed forces, which Obama has yet to understand.

    I am a soldier, getting ready to deploy for my second time after being stop loss. McCain does not scare me. Obama does.”

    Hear, hear. I’m an Army veteran, but if I were still in uniform I’d rather have McCain, who knows what military service is all about, who has suffered immensely in the service of his country, than an empty suit like Obama for whom everyone around him is merely a prop to be used to advance his personal quest for power. (Shades of George W. Bush there, frankly.)

  52. “Following Rod’s point (OT as well), Diaries would be nice too.

    Back on topic, if the Democratic Party is a family, then we’re like the rebellious teenagers. Some moved out and are estranged.”

    LOL! Let’s just say I won’t be tasting the turkey with the family this Thanksgiving…

  53. Teresa and WigWag are 100% right. The democrats pushed me aside and threw me to the ground and told me I did not matter. I’m a Fl democrat, I don’t matter. I am only worth 1/2 a vote. I will not go against my basic beliefs and support a candidate that was selected not elected. If the big BO can’t win the primary on his own how’s he gonna do in the GE????

  54. WigWag – I agree with you that the seeds were planted with the Dean run.

    But Hillary has planted a lot of seeds herself. Fifty states got to know her. People who thought they despised her learned to respect her. The pundits might not have lost their hatred, but many in the general public did. They certainly learned how knowledgeable and informed she is, how gracious she is, what a fighter she is.

    She can still rise from the ashes.

  55. Rod ans Mike: Threaded diaries have been suggested before. We would have to move off of wordpress. It could be done. I will have to consult with my co-bloggers.

  56. I think this pretty much says it all:

    It is unclear whether Sen. Obama watched the speech. He was seen shortly before the speech leaving his home in Chicago with golf clubs.

    typical arrogant behavior from the precious…..


  57. “IMO, a vote to end the war = a vote for McCain. A vote to contine on in Iraq in the same limbo we’re doing today = a vote for Obama.”

    I think that’s spot-on. It was Eisenhower who ended the Korean War. It was Nixon (love ‘im or hate ‘im) who ended the Vietnam War. They did it because they could. Nobody could accuse them of being soft on Communism or anything else. And McCain will end the Iraq war for the same reason, because nobody can accuse him on being soft. He’s already proved that back in the 1960s.

    So I guess the question is, whom will Obama bomb to prove he’s “serious” on national security?

  58. Melanie, on June 7th, 2008 at 2:37 pm Said:
    Someone at Talk Left said Obama went golfing instead of listening to Hillary’s speech. Jesus, the arrogance knows no bounds.

    can wind surfing be far behind ? Now he can vacation in peace.

  59. I don’t think that Diana meant to blackmail. I think she was trying to point out that both Hillary and Obama have stated a desire to end the war in Iraq; McCain has declared that he will never “surrender”. I point it out because it is a valid argument: the democratic party is divided because we don’t know where we stand on Iraq.
    Did Obama go golfing? I know that someone at TL said that he did, but did he? I’ve spent some time trying to find evidence of this and I couldn’t find any.
    It seems like we’re taking it as truth but there is no proof.
    I’ve been reading The Confluence for a few weeks now and I’m pointing these two moments out because they indicate to me that this site is in danger of becoming an echo chamber and that the rigorous thought cited above is being applied only in one very limited and self-fulfilling direction.
    I assume that I’ll get shot down for saying this. It’s a blog, so it doesn’t really matter–people can, of course, go elsewhere–but I’m not sure that it’s helping to sway people to your side.
    Put another way: I’m interested in a lot of what I read here, but I’m not convinced that I should vote for McCain or stay home.

  60. Thank you for looking into this Riverdaughter.

    As for the DNC; this expresses what I think the best:

    “We aren’t going to take it anymore”

  61. Rich in PA, wouldn’t you say that Obama always follows the path of least resistance? How many times in his political career has he taken a stand on anything? The path of least resistance is to keep things in iraq pretty much status quo. With the economy tanking, attention is going to be focused on that and away from Iraq. His entire raison d’etre is media driven imagery. No way do I trust him to do anything real and take the hits in the media if we pull out and the situation worsens. he doesn’t have that kind of political courage.

  62. RHG, I just can’t see how it’s our job to convince you of anything. You have to vote your conscience. We all do.

  63. Bostonboomer: I think your comments get us down onto a healthy empirical plane where we’ll either agree or disagree, but at least it will be about something real. I am pretty sure, interrogating what’s left of my political brain, than Obama is more wedded to the idea that Iraq is a mess and we should get out than McCain is. I am also pretty sure that this isn’t intuition on my part, but the easy parsing of clear statements from each of them. As someone who supported the war, and who supported Clinton in (small) part because she did too and didn’t throw herself on the mercy of those who didn’t (like Edwards did), I believe that it’s no longer an enterprise we should stick with. That puts me, politically, with the person who opposed the war in 2003 and still does, rather than the person who supported it in 2003 and still does…the Now matters more than the Then.

  64. What Seriously said.

  65. Seriously: If I thought he were more trustworthy, I would have supported him over Clinton, and I didn’t. But there’s more chance of him getting out of Iraq than of McCain doing do, because the latter has said that he won’t, and he has everything invested in that pledge.

    I’m OK with someone claiming that Iraq is just one issue among many, or even that Iraq has turned the corner and McCain’s position may yet be vindicated. But the specific claim that Obama is no more likely to get us out of Iraq than McCain strikes me as nonsensical.

  66. Politics is perception. What I perceived during this primary was:

    The DNC decided on Obama early last year, and they manipulated their own “rules” to game the system. They were able to do this out in the open and they willingly took the risk of losing a fairly high percentage of their membership believing that Obama could engage segments of the population that were up for grabs.

    I do believe they may have underestimated the numbers on both ends.

    The media wasn’t just allowed, it was encouraged to show bias and imbalance. The DNC had a huge voice in the number of networks they got Donna Brazile on as a regular speaker.

    Barack Obama cannot acquire the experience, the knowledge, the ability to speak without sounding like a tent revival preacher, or any of the many other things he is missing to qualify himself for the presidency in the next few months. He can’t change the things he said, the attitudes he projected, the lack of manners, courtesy, selflessness, and concern for the people of this country. He tried to tell us he understood our concerns, yet every assessment was so far outside reality, it is clear he does not share anything with the people of this country.

    I do not believe he sat in TUCC for 20 years and does not share the values of Rev Wright, Father Pfleger, Rev Farrakhan, Rev Meeks, and all the other parishioners who flail to the beat of the hatred that comes from the pulpit.

    I do not believe his good friends Ayers, Dohrn, Auchi, etc. are just passing acquaintences.

    I do not believe Axelrod would be any better for this country than Rove has been, and if O gets into the WH, you can bet Axelrod will have an office just down the hall from him.

    I do not believe Obama knows how to be honest to anyone, not even himself.

    I think his knowledge of the entire Middle East is so off-base and lacking that he will be more problem than assistance in that region. I read on a different post that Hamas is now burning him in effigy for his comments at the AIPAC gathering.

    My loss of trust in the DNC comes from their own behaviors, their neglect in challenging the outcomes of the caucuses where so many complaints were filed against Obama supporters for fraudulent behavior, and their obvious intent in the way they handled the MI, FL, IA, NH, SC voting punishments. They did this so they could give us Barack Obama as the nominee and push out the one democratic candidate who didn’t just have the best chance of winning, but had everything we need to have the best presidency since the 1990’s.

  67. Hillary’s “concession” speech was brilliant. I don’t think she is about to crawl under a rock and let the media and the DNC throttle her, do you? She is ascending.

    She undercut the lecture on gender that I’m sure Bama’s speechwriters were cooking up to win over the bitter feminist fringe–after the sweeties settled down. He’d throw Hillary under the bus again if he could, but she just keeps popping back up! He needs her supporters’ votes.

    I saw Hillary as more presidential than ever. She has shattered the glass ceiling.

    I do feel that she will be president one day. I don’t see how Obama can be. I hope Hillary does work her heart out on the campaign trail. The more people see her, the most they are drawn to her authenticity. If you compare her to Mr. I, I, I, there is no comparison. The empty suit is also a hollow man. If he has any money left, he can help her with her campaign debt, although all of us who are supporters need to chip in the cost of a lunch out for her.

    Now Hillary can take a break, lie low, and let the media turn on Bama.

    Hillary kept the ratings up, but I bet they start dipping when she is out. It’s a business, and the viewer has to be held for the next ad. Obama has a very colorful history that makes up for his lack of experience for the job.

    The same media that chose Bu$h over Gore, over Kerry, probably doesn’t want a Democrat in the White House. Hillary would have been harder to squash.

    Why the divide within the party? The campaign wasn’t fair, and the slings and arrows were directed at the most qualified candidate, the one who has devoted her life to the people, not being Rezko’s #2 bagman. The selection by the DNC wasn’t fair. The sexism was rampant and only Senator Barbara Milkulski called it out. The women who volunteer, donate, and carry the water for the party mostly came from the Clinton faction.

    Picking the unqualified male over the hyper-qualified woman pushes a lot of buttons.

    The fact that no one is the “leadership” of the Democratic Party stood up to defend the Clintons when Axelrod’s campaign made them out to be racists is the main reason I am done with the Party as it exists. But after Dean was knocked down by Kerry’s 527, the Dean people stayed together and took over from within. I think it’s time to get the Clinton faction back in control. Bye, bye Dean and Nancy.

  68. McCain might have said he’ll never “surrender”, but he also said we should have stayed and won the Vietnam War, yet he went against many in his party (and many fellow soldiers) to work for trade relations with Vietnam. He was front and center on the issue.

    That’s why he doesn’t scare me. Obama is perceived as weak on defense. He’s backed by Move-On and Code Pink (or was). He might have to show how macho he is.

    Who knows? Sometimes you have to go with your gut feeling – you certainly can’t go by what they say on the campaign trail.

  69. Regency,
    Right, of course. I guess I just made the assumption that people congregate at this and other blogs in the hopes that their arguments would be read and taken up by others who might not have come in to the arena with the same outlook. A kind of latter-day version of knocking on doors. Bad assumption, I guess.
    Anyway, I don’t want to derail the original point of the main thread.
    I just wanted to make it clear that I wasn’t accusing anyone of failing or anything. I was just pointing to what I thought might be an opportunity and how I, an outsider, saw that opportunity being missed.

  70. Caseyinfl, I spend half my time in New Jersey and half my time in Ft. Lauderdale. I know that many of my Florida friends are simply infuriated that the DNC thought it was more important to insure their desired preordained outcome, than to count every Florida vote. The DNC basically told Florida voters to drop dead. I don’t think Obama can win Florida anyway (especially if McCain selects Crist as VP) From what I understand, even Florida dems seem to like Crist. I’m just curious, what do you think of him?

    Jmac, if we want our Party back, we’re going to have to win it back. And we’re going to have to win it back from the grass roots first. I don’t know how to do that but I know it will take money and it will take effort. Most important it will take leadership. If Obama wins in the Fall (don’t fool yourself, he might) he will own the Democratic Party for the forseeable future. That’s why we have to hold our noses and vote for McCain.

  71. The press is starting to get a little fed up with Obama’s attitude too. He had them get on a plane thinking he was on board too. Check out the backlash:

  72. Riverdaughter, I have designed a PUMA logo, if you are interested. I do this kind of thing professionally — and this, I think quite striking.

    Write to me if you have any interest.

  73. Rich,

    I can see your point of view, but past history suggests to me that it may actually take a Republican to get us out of Iraq. That might be the only way Republicans in congress will allow it. Just as it may be easier for a Democrat to destroy social security, because the gutless Democrats won’t stand up to him. For me, domestic issues are more salient right now, because I don’t think any of the three candidates will get us out of Iraq quickly and I am extremely concerned about Obama’s domestic agenda.

  74. Anntoo, on June 7th, 2008 at 3:16 pm Said:
    Melanie, on June 7th, 2008 at 2:37 pm Said:
    Someone at Talk Left said Obama went golfing instead of listening to Hillary’s speech. Jesus, the arrogance knows no bounds.

    can wind surfing be far behind ? Now he can vacation in peace
    And eat lotsa and lotsa of waffles. Don’t forget the waffles!

  75. I believe the DNC should give us back all the money we donated to either campaign since they rigged the election from the start.

  76. Darn tag lines

  77. No Papi, there weren’t two strong candidates. There was one weak candidate, propped up by party insiders and the media, and there was one strong candidate, who won the popular vote–and more importantly, respect–in spite of the party insiders and the media.

  78. Wig Wag,

    If Crist were elected VP, that would break another historical barrier. I’ve heard he is gay, although he apparently has been pushed into getting married now.

  79. OT – riverdaughter,
    you said elsewhere that you get dsl for $20
    may I ask where? is it a nationwide co.?
    (back to regular programming – lol)

  80. Bostonboomer, I have heard rumors that he is gay, but he’s never acknowledged it. I don’t think anyone outside his inner circle really knows if it is true.

    Even my ardent Democratic friends in Florida speak very highly of him. Although he’s bad on taxes (always wanting to lower them) supposedly he’s good on envirnomental and energy issues. I just wondered what people who live in Florida might think of him.

  81. DNC made a deal with RNC to take a fall this POTUS election.
    RNC “will allow” them to get more seats in congress, give their money, their media – but Dems had to get rid of the Clintons first – for one they actually wanted to win.
    Someone posted a comment here on why Hillary couldn’t hold up. A snippet:
    “Anyway, apparently, the idea that Obama isn’t going to be able to win
    the nomination came up while talking to the DNC/supers and the response
    she received was that Obama brought in a lot of new Democratic voters
    (and ultimately, a lot of new Democratic money) and thus, while the
    party might lose the election in the short term (the presidential
    election, that is), the long term would be good, as the party would
    have lots of new voters and money.”
    Somehow, the dems forgot they were a major party and went into “building” over winning – and to do that, they shat on their traditional base. I am not sure if Bo is aware or not at this point he needs to take a fall 0 but he will – and Hillary will take the blame.
    An identical deal, outcome happened in Florida 2004 – with Reno vs Jebbie. DNC brought a “fresh faced” bureaucrat – put its weight behind him. Dirty primaries later, he got in and stopped campaigning, letting jebbie in – unchallenged.
    I wonder if “impeachment off the table was part of the deal.

  82. I get my DSL from embarq. It used to be earthlink. It’s about $23/month. I have it bundled with my my satellite provider.

  83. Bostonboomer, I also have a feeling that McCain could more easily get us out of Iraq–strangely enough, because of his stance that we can win militarily. All he has to do is to declare military victory at any time, a la Nixon and Vietnam, and then follow a similar program to what Hillary and Edwards were proposing–a small strike force “on the horizon”, ready to go back in if there’s any evidence that the true, Sunni Al Queda is infiltrating the country. It’s certainly a possibility.

  84. bostonboomer, on June 7th, 2008 at 3:39 pm Said:
    Wig Wag,
    If Crist were elected VP, that would break another historical barrier. I’ve heard he is gay, although he apparently has been pushed into getting married now.

    Would it? I wonder how many closeted Veeps-or Presidents for that matter-we’ve had already.
    Now, if he’d come out and run as a proud, gay American, that would be refreshing at least.

  85. He went GOLFING???

  86. Now I’m supposed to care about who shows up to his rallies? This election has officially become about the wrong things.

  87. Why is the Party divided?

    1) Because the “Party” officials decided they could divide themselves off from ordinary workers (who can’t take the day off for a caucus), the elderly (which we’ll all be someday if we’re lucky enough to live that long), women –and men — who know that sexism is far more acceptable than racism — and the rest of us 18 million who cared about health care and 1 person 1 vote.

    2) They are fools and they take us for granted.


  88. Many good explanations here — the hatred of the dem elite for the Clintons, the hidden money trail. I’m struck by how successfully the winds of fascism were stirred. I never understood how Germany got Hitler. Now I see that it’s easy to raise a mob. People have good and bad instincts and inclinations. JFK and RFK, for instance, gave people permission to (and FDR) let their caring selves rise to the surface. This campaign has shown how bigotry can be fanned. The sheer viciousness of the bloggery and the MSM shows that we are barely a step away from public lynchings of dissidents from the party line (And BO’s churchgoing pals would be in the front row).

  89. Papi,

    You are free to go with the party line. Many of us here have realigned as independent. We aren’t beholden to the party anymore. They told us they didn’t need us and could win without us, so there shouldn’t be a problem. If the party had wanted unity, they could have gotten it by telling Obama to lay off the race-baiting and arrogant sexist remarks. And they could have sent clear messages to the media that misogyny in support of Obama was unacceptable. They made their bed and now they can lie in it. I don’t owe them a single thing.

  90. Crist will be the next GOP candidate, gay or not. You can take that to the bank.

    Here’s what’s good about this process. Women and blacks will never be sided as fringe candidates going forward. On the Republican side, McCain is a good step for them. His signature issue in the campaign appears to be combatting global warming. All that come after him will be candidates that support more than far right religious views and low taxes. It’s a good step for the Republic. Hillary would have been a better step, but come on, this is America.

  91. Both my sister and I refer to Crist as “Governor Dreamboat.” Gay or straight, to the over fifty crowd, he’s a hottie.
    Not that it matters; I can’t vote for McCain or Obama.

  92. I think I’ll go golfing on November 4th instead of to the polls.

  93. this is why I think the party is divided:


  94. Good one, kb.

  95. LHin Seattle: Do you think Obama will win Washington?

    (signed Teresa in Sammamish)

  96. Sweetie Sue,

    I’m sure there have been closeted gays in the WH before. But this time it would be someone who is heavily rumored to be gay. A number of Crist’s partners have even spoken up. If Lindsey Graham is another possible VP, but I notice that McCain is staying away from him. He’s a little more obvious than Crist. It still would be a step in the right direction.

  97. SweetieSue, there have actually been scholarly books suggesting that Abraham Lincoln was gay. If you’re interested, check out a book called the Initmate Life of Abraham Lincoln by C.A. Tripp. Here’s the first paragraph from a review of the book that appeared in the NY Times on January 9, 2005..

    “THIS book is already getting noticed. In ”The Intimate World of Abraham Lincoln,” C. A. Tripp contends that Lincoln had erotic attractions and attachments to men throughout his life, from his youth to his presidency. He further argues that Lincoln’s relationships with women were either invented by biographers (his love of Ann Rutledge) or were desolate botches (his courtship of Mary Owens and his marriage to Mary Todd). Tripp is not the first to argue that Lincoln was homosexual — earlier writers have parsed his friendship with Joshua Speed, the young store owner he lived with after moving to Springfield, Ill. — but he assembles a mass of evidence and tries to make sense of it. “

  98. whose betting on a miraculous Bin Laden capture this fall prior to the election??

    I’m nearly certain of it.

  99. Katiebird,

    Golfing is too elitist for us working stiffs. How about we go bowling? I haven’t bowled in years, but I’m pretty sure I can top Obama’s score of 39.

  100. The party is divided because the leadership has stated that some of the groups in the ‘big tent’ don’t matter and have been marginalized. According to them, they can win and move on without us, that includes working class/labor, women and minorities other than AAs. I am sure I have missed some.

    They feel we should take their proclamation with the proper deference and subservience and assure them that yes, you have abused us into submission and yes, we will fall into line. You are the greatest and I bow down to that greatness and I will do anything for you. Pfffft. As Monty Python said in The Holy Grail – “I fart in your general direction.”

    We are quite rightly angry that we are in this position and we have to convert this anger into directed action, so they can’t miss the message.

    Like many others, I plan to register as an independent. However, I don’t plan to do that until August when all hope is lost. A side benefit to that is I really want to have the party call, mail and email me so I can tell them repeatedly – No, no more money, time or energy from me. You are on your own since you don’t need me, make it without me.

  101. I can see a Jim Webb as VP.. a veteran to counter McCain’s service.

    plus i kinda like the guy.

  102. RHG:

    This isn’t a “debate” blog, it’s a refuge.

    Debate blogs quickly become clogged with trolls who shout down honest debate. They all have the same list of approved talking points.

    We’ve heard all the arguments. We were there, we know what happened, we prefer to believe our lying eyes and ears, and all the trolls in Axelrod’s dungeons won’t convince us that shit doesn’t stink.

  103. There are a combination of factors at play. Without doubt, we witnessed the climactic moment of a coup d’etat on May 31, 2008. The final act was the New York Delegation turning on Hillary and threatening her Senate seat if she did not climb aboard the Unity Pony like a good little girl.

    There is clearly an anti-Clinton element in the party (because in reality, Democrats are idiots and eat their own). More importantly there is a Leftist cabal behind this; Dean, Pelosi, Reid, Kerry, and Grendel Brazile are part of it. Pampers/Ayers/Khalidi/Soros have a vision of a new world order that begins with selling Israel to her enemies. The Arab and Islamic world sings Cumbaya, and we get to live in an enforced Leftist Utopia. Wow, sign me up!

    No thanks.

    Had Michigan and Florida been seated at full strength, and with fair reflection, Senator Clinton would have ended the primary season with not only the popular vote lead, but the pledged delegate lead as well. This is the battle cry of the Clinton Nation.

    This coup d’etat will not stand.

    Keep your eyes open. Stay focused. Stay hungry. Keep a clear head.


  104. Hi All,
    Lovely, Amazing speech by an amazing women today. A total class act.
    I just wanted to quickly point out that McCain passed on voting for the equal pay act for women in the Senate and said that women needed more training instead. He said the equal pay act would cause more lawsuits to happen after the Supreme Court threw out Lily Ledbetter’s lawsuit for discrimination. The Republicans killed the bill in the Senate on a 56-42 vote. Just food for thought.
    I too have been a victim of pay discrimination in my years in corporate America. The Democrats are the only ones that have ever supported equal pay. I can never support a Republican.

  105. Ah, but BB – I’ve never golfed in my life. So starting on Election day would be a direct slap in the face. Still, you’re right. Bowling would be more fun.

    We could have a national P.U.M.A. Bowling tournament on November 4th.

  106. Melanie,

    I hope you’re right. I can’t imagine another woman trying anytime soon after what was done to Hillary. And the fact that her long-time supporters dumped her immediate doesn’t say a lot for them as feminists (e.g., Gloria Steinem, Emily’s List, NARAL). What other woman has the credentials, support, and fund-raising capacity that Hillary does? I don’t think there will be another woman candidate for President for a very long time. I hope I’m wrong.

  107. Diana, save it for Daily Obama.


  109. Fellow Hill Villagers:

    We all know Hillary had to give this speech because of the pressure from DNC leadership and even some of her own superdelegate “supporters.” What they don’t understand is that despite their characterization of Hillary supporters as uneducated masses, we are the smartest cookies in the bunch. We supported her when the media and pundits were telling us she was finished. We poured out our hearts and wallets when they said she was broke, and we will use our wisdom when they show us that Hillary is now in line. Hillary, you can count on our smarts and wisdom. We see what they have done to you and to our voice and we will not buy it. We stand with you and Bill and Chelsea and we say a loud NO to the DNC and to their appointed leader.

    This is the start of a reform movement to take back our democracy and our country. Our motto is “One Person, One Vote.” All the theatrics and imagery to propel Obama as the next saviour is not working on us. Obama is no RFK. Obama is no MLK. The dream of Martin Luther King was to judge every man (or woman) by the content of their character not the color of their skin. Our rejection of the DNC and their appointed leader, our rejection of steeling this election will go a long way in reclaiming our democracy.

    I encourage all of you to go and rent the movie Iron Jawed Angels this weekend and watch the courageous women who fought to get us the right to vote and see why we can not let this precious right be taken away from us in broad daylight. The star of the movie is another Hilary (Hillary Swank). It is a great movie and a great way to put the events of the past months in perspective.

    We are all united4america.

  110. Wide awake: Four years of McCain in office is NOT our end. It’s a means to an end which is to get the Democratic Party BACk.

    If the Democratic Party doesn’t come back to us, we’ll have no reapresentation at all. Is that what you want? Is it?

  111. Boston, that’s not really what I said. And, no, I don’t think there will be another like Hillary for a long time, mostly because there are NO women leaders like Hill out there. I only meant they will not be immediately dismissed when and if one emerges. I do think there will be serious african american male contenders in most of our primaries going forward.

    As for her feminist endorsers, I think she likely gave them the go head. That’s the kind of leader she is.

  112. wide awake

    haha, sorry but Chelsea talked about the equal pay act and how Democrats haven’t even bothered to vote for it. Democrats don’t support it and that is why Hillary hasn’t been successful with it.

  113. “It was Nixon (love ‘im or hate ‘im) who ended the Vietnam War”
    Are you saying you want McCain to emulate Nixon?”

    No, I am, however, saying that GOP presidents can act in a conciliatory fashion because nobody is going to beat them over the head with the national security club. That is all I am saying. Nixon went to China, signed arms control treaties with the Soviets because he could. Carter tried to relax US-Soviet tensions, but ended up upping defense spending and supporting the Muj in Afghanistan once the GOP started challenging his foreign policy. Reagan campaigned on being tough on the Soviets, and ended up signing even more arms control agreements and, in effect, laying the foundations for the end of the Cold War (yes, I know, he did not “win” it by himself–John Wayne helped him).

    McCain is in the same position. A hawkish reputation means he can do anything he wants with no political risk. Obama is much more boxed in, thanks to his anti-war speech, his associations with Ayers and others, his middle name etc. Whatever he does, he’ll be vulnerable to charges he’s soft on terrorism/a closet Muslim/hates the troops.

  114. Papi, today Jim Webb says all the right things. He would bring a level of experience to an Obama Administration that Obama sadly lacks. But he has a history of sexist comments. He disgraced himself during the Tail Hook controversy. He is widely reported to have called the U.S. Naval Academy’s dormitory as “a horny woman’s dream”

    Yeah, that’s the way to win back Hillary Clinton supporters.

  115. “they” didn’t think we would stand with her.
    “they” thought we would buy the same right wing crap that has been slung against her for so long.
    “they” thought we were not savvy enough to notice what was going on.
    “they” have no loyalties so do not recognize the behavior.
    “they” do no realize that she is us, and we are her…
    “they” still don’t think we will stand with her and stand up for ourselves.
    “they” are going to have a rude awakening.

  116. Teresa, on June 7th, 2008 at 3:51 pm Said:
    LHin Seattle: Do you think Obama will win Washington?

    (signed Teresa in Sammamish)

    May I put in my penny of a thought?

    McCain alienated Boeing when he boasted the contracts he managed to keep from them after the Mike Sears scandal. Boeing has recently lost 2 more pentagon contracts. The first one will create 100,000 jobs in Europe with Airbus.

    Patty Murray is leading a huge investigation and is demanding answers for why that contract for military tankers went to a non-American company when Boeing was actually low bid.

    I believe anyone but McCain will win Washington. I’m still holding on to the hope and belief that by the time convention happens, Obama won’t be able to turn “presumptive” into official, and Hillary will be the top of the ticket.

  117. Rich in PA–just don’t buy it. Ending the war requires courage. Not ending the war does not. Obama’s kool-ade drinkers who are using this as a club to beat people over the head with with will do a 360 and complain that asking to end the war is unAmerican and traitorous in 2 seconds flat. there is no accountability there, nothing to keep him honest. People like my cousins in the Army aren’t on his radar, and if they are, well they’re not in the correct income bracket to attract anything but sneering. As long as it’s overshadowed by other news items, it doesn’t matter to him. I don’t think that McCain is more likely to end it, but i don’t think there’s a chance that Obama will lift a finger if there’s any political risk, and there’s always going to be political risk. I don’t envision a scenario where the political benefits outweigh the risks, it’s always going to eb easier to do nothing.

  118. Jim Webb is a loose cannon. Good luck to Obama with that choice.

  119. The party is divided because it wanted to end the Clinton era, and had to resort to methods so corrupt and amoral that it violated every principle that the Party supposedly stood for.

    The Party didn’t give us Barack Obama — the media did that. The Party simply didn’t care who got the nomination, as long as it wasn’t Hillary Clinton.

    I used to think that people were paranoid when they said that the fix was in back in November….then I went back and listened to the Nov RBC meeting again.

    And since I’ve been reading the rules, I discovered something very odd. Its the job of the RBC staff to check all aspects of a state’s delegate selection plan. In the case of Florida, the staff looked at the “timing” issue, decided to recommend a 100% sanction — AND DECIDED NOT TO DO THE REST OF THEIR JOB.

    This is key, because the rules require a 50% delegate strength penalty, and the means by which the other 50% of delegate votes would be apportioned still had to be consistent with Party rules. UNLESS the fix was in, unless the decision was made prior to the official meeting to strip Florida of ALL of its delegates, it was crucial that Florida know if its delegate selection plan met DNC guidelines.

    The process has been manipulated from the beginning… I would have fired the staff director on the spot if s/he’d shown up with a recommendation for a penatty greater than that called for in the rules, and told me that s/he’d stopped work on the proposal because it was HIS/HER OPINION that Florida should be penalized 100%. Its NOT his/her decision… and whoever’s decision it was controlled the process.

  120. katiebird, on June 7th, 2008 at 3:57 pm Said:

    We could have a national P.U.M.A. Bowling tournament on November 4th.


  121. The Democratic Party is dead to me. After Wisc I could see Hillary was in trouble and every primary after that she got stronger and stronger and won and won. Yet, superdelegates and party elders and the media kept pushing Obama, Obama, Obama. Why? Isn’t the purpose of selecting a nominee to win in November. So here is the Democratic Party selecting the weaker and less electable candidate. If they won’t make the effort to win, I will not help them.

    Secondly, the media went on life support during the run up to the Iraq war. They died during this primary. We now longer have any semblance of journalism–just a bunch of pundits and commentary people that seem to be able to keep their jobs no matter how wrong they are.

  122. “McCain alienated Boeing when he boasted the contracts he managed to keep from them after the Mike Sears scandal. Boeing has recently lost 2 more pentagon contracts. The first one will create 100,000 jobs in Europe with Airbus.

    Patty Murray is leading a huge investigation and is demanding answers for why that contract for military tankers went to a non-American company when Boeing was actually low bid.”

    I’m afraid McCain was in the right here and Boeing in the wrong. And, as incredible as it sounds, the Boeing bid might have been lower, but the Airbus one actually met the US Air Force specifications (I think Boeing has gotten a bit arrogant over the years and did not work as hard as the Airbus did on meeting the requirements). It was the better plane for the job. There will be quite a few jobs in the US created from this (strong euro, weak dollar, and all that), but they’ll be in Alabama, not Washington.

  123. Dear Teresa,
    I guess I’m not sure who we is. If you mean women, yes I DO want women to be represented I just know that the Republican party and especially McCain in the White House for another 4 years is not a benign prospect. I remember when Kerry lost and I had a conversation with another campaign volunteer, I had a forboding feeling and she said it won’t be that bad. But look at what he has done in 7 1/2 years. I have family in the military and I want them alive and at home. The other thing I guess is that I am not a single issue voter and I may differ with a lot of you on that which is ok. I tend to look at the overall picture. I vote not for my issues because but for the issues of the poor and uninsured and people who are REALLY suffering in our country. The last thing I would say is that you can only change a party from the inside not the outside and if you want Obama to hear your voice than you need to organize and let him know how important women’s issue are and that he needs to speak to you about them. I have followed both Obama and Hillary because I like both of them. The campaign got rough at times but I don’t tend to take things personally. I have so much respect for Hillary she is a fighter. I do however think that Obama will listen to you but you have to make up your own minds and I just wanted to give you some information. And for Down Listen – I didn’t hear Chelsea talk about the equal pay act but I know the Clintons are devoted Democrats and Hillary said what she needed to to try and get elected and in the end she loves the Democratic Party that gave her all the chances she has had to try and make a difference in this world.

  124. Papi, I doubt anyone here likes John McCain’s politics and I am sure that those of us who are planning to vote for him do so with a heavy heart. We will vote for his as the lesser of two evils.

    I agree with the point that other people here have made. It took Nixon to go to China and it may take McCain to take us out of Iraq. All we know about Obama’s position about Iraq was what he said about the issue at a time when it cost him nothing . He opposed the war tbefore he entered the Senate because this was a popular position to take in his district in Chicago. He opposed the war once in the United States Senate, because by the time he got there, most Democrats opposed the war. If Senator Obama had a record, we might be able to judge his sincerity based on that. But of course, the Senator has no record, just words. You may trust his words, I don’t see any reason to do so.

    People with no experience make mistakes. That’s why we don’t put them in charge. Someone who needs brain surgery searches for the most competent experienced person he can find; he doesn’t let a medical student operate. Before I get on a jet aircraft I want to know that the pilot is experienced at flying jets. If I thought the pilot only had experience flying Piper Cubs, I wouldn’t board, would you? It’s hard to understand why people who wouldn’t trust an inexperineced surgeon or an inexperienced pilot would trust an inexperienced president. Inexperiened people make bad mistakes. McCain has more experience than Obama. He will be a better president. Not a great president; but a better president.

  125. The party is divided for a very simple reason: Barrack Obama divided it as a campaign tactic. He used race as a bludgeon to beat his opponent and her supporters senseless. In so doing, he has torn off the scab and set back race relations 30 years. But he wasn’t just satisfied with that. He also has to pile on the misogyny. These are the kinds of divisions that can’t be papered over by calls to Unity. This is not the usual democratic primary with several candidates who are clones of each other, where one is about as good as another one. This is the primary in which one of the candidates took every weapon the Republicans have long used against us and embraced them. This is the primary in which all the groups that once fought together under one big tent were pitted against each other, where some groups were declared “more equal than” other groups, just like the pigs in Orwell’s Animal Farm. Like so many who post here, I will not be joining or enabling those pigs. They are no different than the current inhabitant of the White House.

  126. If Hillary had lost fair and square on a level playing field, things would be different.

    She had everything stacked against her, but she won the popular vote anyway. So they changed the rulz so they could “declare” someone else won.

    The sweetie trolls keep saying we’re upset because she lost. But Hillary didn’t lose, she won.

    The media and the Democratic leadership conspired to deny her the victory she earned.

  127. We’re in trouble in November. We have NO good choices left.

    The SuperDelegates made that determination and now the rest of the country has to live with that. They knowingly chose the one with weaker electability. How was that the act of a patriotic compassionate party? It wasn’t.

  128. In response to the fellow who calls himself Reason and others, believe me, I am trying very hard to get myself to like Obama. The problem is, every time I turn on MSNBC, there’s Matthews or Olbermann or Schuster and , I’m back to loathing Obama again. He slept with dogs, he got fleas, I guess.

  129. Wide awake:

    We aren’t single issue voters.

  130. thanks for the dsl info.
    I will check it out.

  131. Ed O’Reilly did it!!! John Kerry will have a primary challenger for the first time in 23 years. Woot!

    I think I will throw myself into his campaign.

  132. Main explanation for anti-Hillary sentiments? (a) fear of painful reminders of Bill’s bad behavior (and the venom he raises in Republicans) and (b) jealousy of her success, (unwillingness to hide after Bill’s bad behavior) (the $ B.O. offers is #3.). Fortunately, with this race Hillary has identified herself as an independent person, not a Bill appendage. Therefore, I believe she’d win in 2011 (coupled with the points below):

    On Iraq? Here’s my prediction: Bush wil conveniently arrange it so that the war is essentially over before the election (don’t you think they know by now what kind of political prizes to award the various factions?) Therefore, McCain can speak to the great success of the “surge” which B.O. opposed. (And, yes, subsequent conciliations with Iraq by McCain will be much easier to take than “appeasment” by B.O..)
    Further, I predict McCain wins because of all the legitimate grist B.O. has given for the Republican’s negative mills, and then Hillary runs and WINS in 2011!

  133. Papi:

    He did it by falsely accusing the Clintons and anyone who voted for Hillary of racism.

  134. No, BLACKS will never be sided as fringe candidates going forward. Women still will.

    Trust me, we aren’t going to have a female president in the next 30 years. Ain’t gonna happen. This was the chance. It’s gone.

  135. Diana: Again, we aren’t voting FOR McCain. We’re voting AGAINSt Obama. The idea is to get the party on the right track. It isn’t going to happen if Obama wins.

    I have a suggestion: Go to:


    They’ll respect your opinion very much.

  136. Diana,

    You can ask Riverdaughter about what our policy will be on arguing the case for Obama. I personally don’t want to have to listen to the talking points anymore. This blog will not be supporting Obama. If people who do want to vote for him want to comment here, they should respect that and not try to convert us. We have thought long and hard about our positions. Most of us here probably won’t vote for McCain. I won’t. But I haven’t decided what to do yet. November is pretty far off, and Obama is a gaffe and scandal machine. I don’t know yet if he will be the nominee.

    All we ask is that you respect the purpose of this blog. We are not ready to make nice. Two former Hillary blogs that you might consider are Talk Left and Taylor Marsh. They have both switched to supporting Obama. Talk Left has thoughful commenters, although many of them are leaving and coming here or to other Hillary blogs.

  137. Diana, get lost! Obama gave Hill the finger. He called her “divisive” code for bitch for 16 months. He never once acknowledged her history making campaign until he had won. His surrogates called her a monster and her supporters racist. You really are barking up the wrong tree.

  138. Papi, if your’e oppose military action in Iran, you are better off supporting McCain than Obama. McCain has been shot at; he’s suffered in war. Do you really think he is more likely to start a war in Iran than a dilettante who couldn’t even bother to show up at committee hearings for the subcommittee he himself was supposed to chair.

    The country most threatened by putative Iranian nukes is Israel. Iraninan leaders have threatened to wipe Israel off the map. This is something very unwise to do to a people who have experienced genocide in the memories of people still alive. If the Israelis are thinking about launching an attack on Iran, who do you think is more likely to deter them? A proven leader with foreign policy experience and a strong military background or a neophyte leader who has never accomplished anything? If you were the Israeli defense minister contemplating a difficult decision, who would you trust, John McCain or Barack Obama?

    And Papi, McCain knows the difference between Shiites and Sunnis. He mispoke. Just like when Obama told Washington State Democrats that Iran posed no danger and Montana Democrats that Iran posed a terrible threat.

  139. There are a lot of divides — some ideological, some demographic, the deepest on gender. Race is certainly one, but it’s not as deep as gender.

    I’ve given a fair amount of thought to the evolution of the Democratic Party as an organism, an institution. One riff is here: http://falstaff-falstaff.blogspot.com/2008/05/withering-of-institutions.html.

    Here’s a relevant excerpt from another thoughtstream:

    The Democratic Party is not yet fit to govern, because it doesn’t yet want to govern. It used to. Under FDR and Truman, it wanted to, a lot. It still wanted to under Kennedy and Johnson. But since Vietnam – and perhaps Vietnam was only the pretext – the Dems have self-defined as people who think power is ipso facto wrong. They are, by and large, at least skeptical of — and usually actively opposed to — anybody who wields it. They self-experience as those who critique, who analyze, who speak up against. They can be Congresspeople and Senators – because there’s no real accountability there. But they can’t be Presidents, because Presidents have to act, and live with the consequences.

    Thing is, Bill and Hillary do act. They do want power. They are imperfect – but their sins are generally sins of commission rather than omission. And they are anomalies in the modern Democratic Party for precisely this reason — and the Party knows it. Half the Party is in awe of that… can’t exactly imagine how they pull it off, but love that they do so. And the other half of the Party is appalled… can’t figure out why these freaks call themselves Democrats, and feel personally sullied by the association.

    When Samantha Power (sic) called Hillary a “monster,” she was actually expressing very precisely what the power-hating branch of the Democratic Party feels. They feel that all power is monstrous, and that anyone who seeks and wields it is a monster, a freak, not One of Us. “She’s tearing apart the Democratic Party,” they lament. Well, yes, she is – if by “Democratic Party” you mean some kind of wonderfully pure Suicide Salon.

    The people who supported Bill, though, and those who support Hillary, by and large, need someone in power. These are women who are assaulted by a male-dominated society and need protection from it. These are poor or nearly-poor people for whom a recession will mean life-threatening privation. These are people for whom the dysfunction of the healthcare system has a very direct and often catastrophic impact on their lives.

    In contrast, the people who support Obama, with the notable exception of one population, can weather a recession, a crappy healthcare system and a misogynist society pretty safely. African Americans, of course, are supporting him for obvious and emotionally compelling reasons. But the rest of Obama’s base is, by and large, well-off, young and well educated. They self-experience as post-racial and post-sexist. They are the Children of Stewart (Jon). They live in a deconstructed world, worship Irony (which is why Wright generated a bit of cognitive dissonance) and have a quasi-libertarian distrust of institutions and those who lead them.

    These people have the luxury of being theoretical and aesthetic, of treating politics as theater. And they only go to the plays that express the metaphors and abstractions that make them feel the most special. They sure as hell aren’t turned on by someone who seems to embody specific thoughts about what he or she will actually do. That’s wonkery. That’s boring – even kind of icky. Yeah, yeah, policies, positions, programs, whatever. The main thing is how you get there. The main thing is “approach,” “mindset,” style.

    In fact, in some ways these people are like the right-wing think-tankers of the ‘90s, the post-history, American Enterprise Institute, Andrew Sullivan crowd – also well-off, academic, libertarian, distrustful of all institutions, culturally hip and disdainful of the values (and often the persons) of the unwashed… whether those values had a right-leaning (theocratic) or left-leaning (welfare-loving) bent. It doesn’t seem even a little bit surprising that Francis Fukayama just endorsed Obama.

    For both of these groups, there is a longing for conflict to be over, for racism and sexism to be reduced to the “identity politics” of our tribal past, for the human trip to graduate, finally, to the broadband-enabled Jane Jacobs-urban, creative-class utopia that is its destiny. I share this wish. But I know we ain’t there yet.

    The Democratic Party is gradually emerging from its anti-power phase… and the fact that Hillary has even made it this far is testament to that. But the Party is still a bit pathetic. It’s still unable to marshal any real opposition to radical assaults on America – from outside the country or within. It’s still unable to gather itself around any principles long enough to leave a tire mark. It’s still unable to work up the adult determination to serve and protect. And it’s still fatally attracted to Anti-Power, especially in the person of such a cool, effete, seductive emblem, this figure from central casting who helps them preserve their own narcissistically Hippocratic self-image.

  140. Why party is divided:

    MAY 31st, 2008 – RBC Meeting. Verdict: We chose Barack despite Hillary having more votes & the will of the people.

    Shtuey, on June 7th, 2008 at 3:59 pm Said:

    Election Day is B.O.W.L.ing day!

  141. Dear Teresa,
    I wanted to say Hi one more time than I have work to do. I hear your pain girlfriend. I think I’m probably a little older than you (don’t know for sure) but I think that as women we need to realize that if Obama gets elected that does not erase racisism from our country and if Hillary would have been elected it wouldn’t immediately stop sexism. These two fights will go down long after you and I have left this planet. But I am prould that our country has come so far in the last 60-80 years. I never thought in my lifetime that I would see a woman run for the highest office or a black man get this far. I think you owe it to yourself to take some time and mourn and then do what Hillary would do, get right back on the bus and let your voice be heard. Both campaigns have a comment form and I contacted both of them regularly with my thoughts and will continue to do so. But again, I hear your pain and share your disappointment. Take care-wideawakenow

  142. Just as an aside:
    Now that this site has become so welcoming to the “exiles/refugees/PUMA’s lets be aware that it won’t take long for the Oborg dones to follow us here and try every which way to “assimilate” the resistance. Convince us that McCain is worse or at best just as risky as Obama. I’ll take a chance on the old gissard who has already shown what he is made of rather than this concoction of the media and Clinton Hating DNC collective.

  143. papi,

    Obama has hurt race relations by trivializing the accusation of racism. It’s gotten to the point that, among HRC supporters, at any rate, to be accused of being a racist is practically a badge of honor. This is not a good thing.

  144. felizarte,

    We don’t put up with trolls here. They get sent to the spam filter if there is any wrong move.

  145. Diana:

    How many times do we have to tell you we’re not buying what you’re selling?

  146. felizarte:

    The trolls started showing up here before the paint was even dry.

    But we have strict standards and big mean bouncers.

  147. Diana,

    You didn’t even read my comment did you. That’s pretty insulting. I have repeatedly stated that I won’t vote for McCain. I do respect the right over each American to vote according to his or her conscience. Apparently, not only do you not respect that individual right, but you don’t even bother to read what people say before you criticize them. This blog is dedicated to supporting Hillary Clinton and now we are committed to fighting the corruption in the Democratic Party. If those goals don’t match yours, you have two choices. Respect our choices or find another blog. I suggested two that aren’t echo chambers.

  148. Papi:

    Good for you. We aren’t trying to persuade you otherwise. Please return the favor.

  149. Obama lives in Hyde Park. I lived there too, a half block from him, and shared the same polling place. So did Mike Nichols and Elaine May, who started their comic career there in the 50s. They once acidly noted about the neighborhood, “Hyde Park. Black and white together, shoulder to shoulder against the lower classes.” That’s it in a nutshell, replicated on a national scale.

  150. marjoleine,

    I suggest you try Talk Left or Taylor Marsh. Alternatively, you could consider starting your own blog. It is free here at wordpress.

    I’m going to start deleting people who keep arguing about the purpose of this blog. We have a credo and we aren’t going to change it. If you don’t like it, then this isn’t the place for you.

  151. To the Obama loving appeasers:

    We made our decision a long time ago. we know who your candidate is, we’ve read up on what he has to offer, and we know what it’ll mean if McCain wins.

    Guess whay? Obama does not represent the majority of the Democratic Party and is an ILLEGITIMATE candidate.

    Our party abandoned it’s core principles to “count every vote” and “respect the will of the people” and CHEATED to help him win. We all saw it on Live TV on May 31st 2008.

    So fine, win without us.


  152. I’m not here to persuade anyone. I saw the post on WordPress and came in. I personally feel that neither Hillary nor Obama are the best we had to offer. I supported Joe Biden because he was the single candidate who had the best grasp of the most pressing issue we face today…Iraq. He was and is the ONLY candidate who has an actual PLAN. He was the only Democrat in the YouTube debates that actually realized logistically that pulling out would take a YEAR. at least.

    I’m a Democrat. Therefore I don’t vote for the other guys.

  153. (yawn) Papi, you’re skating close to the edge with your chatter.

    This site is a refuge for Hillary Support. Some of us are Democrats — some not.

    Biden? He’s yesterday’s news. And Me? If Hillary isn’t the nominee (AND I haven’t given up that dream) I’m probably going to spend election day B.O.W.L.-ing. So get off my case.

  154. Papi,

    This isn’t the blog for you. There are thousands of blogs out there and you can even start your own. As someone else already told you, this isn’t a debating blog. This blog has a specific purpose and we aren’t interested in getting into arguments with people who clearly haven’t done their own research.

    If you don’t understand how Obama has set back race relations, and you are unaware of his race-baiting of the Clintons throughout this campaign, then you need to go educate yourself some more. You could read old posts and thread here or on Talk Left if you are interested. Or you could try daily kos, open left, or talking points memo. They would be better suited to your needs, I think.

  155. Mike J.

    I respectfully disagree.

  156. Katiebird, sign me up for the PUMAs team, cause Election Day is B.O.W.L.ing day – H/T to Shtuey!

  157. New troll script changes:

    I’ve seen at least three different new commenters claiming to be former Biden supporters in the last 24 hours.

    It always used to be Edwards.

  158. Papi:

    We aren’t trying to fix anything.

  159. PUMA is an un-party, a movement.

    Legitimate candidate = PARTY UNITY

    Illegitimate candidate = P.U.M.A.

  160. I’m so glad that this site has quite an effective “troll alarm” and the posters are hip to the attempts at deception. This is truly a refuge, even if perhaps it is the eerie calm of the eye of the storm. Glad to be here! Three cheers for P.U.M.A.

  161. Falstaff – ohhh – I really liked your “Feel Free to Spare US” … right on !


  162. The party is divided because Bill Clinton took the party center left and the liberal side of the party wants it back.

    So they back Obama (NOT a liberal). Brilliant.

  163. For me, it was the “making of a president” by Kerry, Kennedy and the DNC, the media meltdown and the complete and utter disrespect accorded to one of the smartest women I’ve ever listened to by her opponent.

    It was all enough to cause me to register to unaffiliated. From now on, I don’t pick my candidates because they are Democrats, I pick the because they reflect my values.

    I think the time is ripe for 3rd party candidates to run in local and state elections. Who knows? Someday we may actually have a 3rd party candidate for president.

    We have to start somewhere, because we’ve seen the corruption on the two party system.

  164. I think the division of the party came from Obama and his dismissing of anything good about Clinton, but also from his supporters.

    I don’t like the termsO-bots or KoolAid Drinkers, or cultists… but when his supporters started totally losing perspective, it became obvious that we were -yet again- in a “You’re with us or against us!” arena.

    I saw women who’d marched in the 70s for choice and women’s rights excusing Randi Rhodes calling Clinton and Ferraro f*cking whores… because a whore wasn’t just a sex worker, it could be someone who compromised their principles and by those accounts they’re whores. Right… I saw these same woman try to explain away “pimping out her daughter” as pimping, for the younger generation is like “pimp my car” or something, totally ignoring that Shuster is not of the younger generation, and that the comment with that meaning made no sense… Puleeze. BTW, my mother is one of those women.

    I saw people who railing at W’s lack of experience and qualifications embrace Obama, who has done, perhaps, less that GWB, which is a frightening thought. We’ve nominated -or they have- a GWB with a D after his name. Not something that I want to be part of.

    As that happened, and Obama supporters started excusing more and more infractions and started engaging in R level cognitive dissonance, it became impossible to ignore that half the party was on an other planet from the other half.

    The divide was there, ready to go at the slightest tap. The DNC cheating of May 31st tapped. Hard. The party split in two.

  165. […] – Barack Obama Will Lose (see: here & here & here & […]

  166. For me, I’ve been dissatisfied with the Dems for some time now, and this primary season has been a watershed for a lot of issues. I don’t like how the party is run or dominated or makes decisions, and the last straw was the RFK assassination smear. I knew Obama Inc, was slimy enough to go there, but the party royalty who pushed BO on the infotainment circles should have shut that sh*t down in a heartbeat. Their silence about that unforgivable smear on Hillary Clinton made me wake up and realize that I didn’t want to be at the party… because I didn’t have the same values or want the same things as the party. I had heard, for some time, people declaring they were equally sick and disgusted by both parties, and for a long time, I was riding on the lesser-of-two-evils train. But I finally got it.

    I’m not sure if the question even applies to me, since I’m no longer a registered Democrat and feel very good about that decision. So, I’m not sure I’m participating in party divisions anymore, technically speaking. I’m an independent who supported Hillary Clinton. But, for me, I divided rather permanently from the party when I didn’t recognize their goals and values anymore, and I saw the party establishment backing a cult of personality that was fueled by Clinton hate. Salt and peppered with generous doses of disdain of the non-“creative class,” race baiting, and faux outrage.

    BO wouldn’t have got anywhere if the party establishment and the corporate media hadn’t enabled him to build his empire on Clinton hate. I can’t be won, I can’t be persuaded, I can’t be threatened. And happily, it looks like I’m not alone in my feelings.

  167. rojo7449, on June 7th, 2008 at 4:07 pm Said:
    Teresa, on June 7th, 2008 at 3:51 pm Said:
    LHin Seattle: Do you think Obama will win Washington?
    (signed Teresa in Sammamish)
    May I put in my penny of a thought?
    McCain alienated Boeing when

    IMO the Boeing design was actually a poorer design than the competition. Boeing moved their headquarters to what, Chicago? Saying there was a poor climate for business here in Seattle. So I could care less about Boeing.

    And WA State gave Boeing I forget how many million or billion in tax subsidies etc to site their N-end operations in the state. Supposed to increase jobs. But the real-life analysis showed it would have been cheaper to just give the few new engineers Hawiian vacations. Very few new jobs were actually created. Typical corporate welfare scheme.

    WA state is so much more than Boeing now anyway. Microsoft, etc. And we voted early, Feb 4 ? rather than post-Wright. Kerry’s win was not close, but not a big one either in 2004.

    Governor: I really don’t want the Rossi Repug. Gregoire — she had done a lot of good things, more than I thought she would. I was for Sims (who endorsed Hillary! this year) in the ’04 primary. Gregoire endorsed Nobama. I may just leave the guv spot blank.

    What’s everyone else thinking about voting for Obama endorsers come Fall?

  168. Looks like falstaff takes the lead in the essay-writing contest … and it looks like there’s more where that came from.

    The Creative Writing Class can’t be all bad> 😉

  169. I’ll probably vomit a bit in my mouth and vote for Gregoire, Rossi scares the snot out of me. If it doesn’t look like an other nail biter, I probably will not vote.

    Sims, I will not vote for. I’m in unincorporated KC and his policies are killing us. 😛 I’ve voted against my self interests for years (first Gary Locke, then Sims) because I beleived they were better, but I won’t do it again. Especially since he jumped to Obama Wednesday morning.

    My congress-critter was a Clinton supporter, didn’t jump ship until Friday. I probably won’t vote for him, he’ll have no problem getting re-elected. Again, if it looks close, I’ll hold my nose, but he routinely gets 60+% of the vote.

  170. LH: I really hate the notion of tolls on many of the roads in the Puget Sound region. This is supported by both Gregoire and Sims. Sims I can’t stand. He’s been involved in some shady deals.

    I don’t want Rossi, but I really think that Washington needs to be reined in a little, so it wouldn’t be a bad thing to have some adversarial government between the Governor and the state congress. Gregoire wrote some diaries on Daily Bros, conveying that she was an out-of-hand koolaid drinker, and I object to that Messiah-worship completely. It has no place in a governmental official. I’ll leave her spot blank.

    I don’t know who your congressional rep is. Mine is Reichert (ich!). I looked into Darcy Burner, and she didn’t endorse (smart woman) so she gets my vote.

  171. To LH in Seattle re voting for Gregoire….yes. We must. She actually has been a fantastic governor.

    While I too am angry at those superdelegates who endorsed Obama rather than Hillary, and particularly elected women, in Chris’ case I think (politically) she had to do it, whether she really did want to or not. Her race was soooo close 4 years ago that she could not possibly chance her own race this year on enraging the Obama people who are all too ready to cut off noses to spite faces.

    Let’s not copy them. Let’s keep voting for the BEST candidates…or not at all!

  172. LHinSeattle — Downballot voting is really where the tough questions come in.

    I would suggest voting D’s for Congress,at least as a rule, and hoping they find their collective souls and spines under a McCain Administration.

    I’m pleased with Sims (though he jumped ship just a little early). There’s a few good eggs left in the state party. Got a major bone to pick with Gregoire. Don’t know how I’ll vote, but I’m not carrying water for any of these characters anymore.

  173. I have been meaning to scan in a big tree of life, then place blinking red arrows next to the VERTEBRATE tree. I would then send my scan to each member of Congress.

  174. For me Gregoire and Sims idea of tolls on many of the roads is a travesty. Ours is already the most regressively taxed state in the nation, so –*I know!*– let’s add another regressive tax!

    No thank you. I’m sitting out Gregoire. I hope Sims has a primary challenger or I’ll sit out his election too.

  175. Boston boomer – thanks for the link to where I can start my own blog. Been thinking about it…

    oh, and I aint Diana 🙂

  176. MA Blue says it for me.

    Class warfare, pure and simple.

    Obama was drafted to take out Hillary and put the Clintons in their place…as far out of favor in the Democratic Party as they could be pushed.

    The thing is…after 50+ years…if they go, I go…and I won’t be back until they are in charge once again. It’s one thing when the kids are allowed by the babysitters to throw wild parties when the grownups are gone…it’s quite another when the inmates take over the asylum.

    Call me when Kennedy, Kerry, Daschle and McCaskill have been sent to their rooms without dinner. Until then…….buh bye, Democrats!

  177. So RonK…you’re mad at Chris because why?

  178. I’m pleased with Sims

    Heh! 🙂 If it wasn’t obvious from your user name, you obviously live in Seattle! Hee. I know very few Dems out in uninc KC who can stand Sims.

    What did Gregoire do that was so horrid? I’m not thrilled with her Obama endorsement, but aside from that I thought she’s done ok, though I’d have liked to see more leadership on the viaduct.

  179. “why are we divided?” Because I cant post an independent opinion without getting attacked. I am and have been a Clinton supporter but I will not vote for Mccain or any Republican for President. Period.

  180. ronkseattle: Okay, I admit it. I do go on… a bit. 🙂 Thanks for the props, Briana.

    Maybe we’ll all feel differently five months from now. Maybe we’ll suck it up, let it roll off our backs and figure out what work to tackle next, as Hillary has done. At the moment, though, I don’t feel able to be that tough.

  181. falstaff: If we do what we’re saying, it will be exactly what the corrupt Democrats expected us to do when they screwed us over

  182. I agree with that comment, Teresa and frankly I dont know what to do about it. Becoming a republican is out and I dont want to reward the Obama campaign and the DNC either. Hair washing may be my only option.

    I really was hoping to see some ideas here – other than the gop thing – so I will come back another time.

  183. […] – Barack Obama Will Lose (see: here & here & here & here) […]

  184. I’m not a duck, the water doesn’t seem to just roll off that easily!

    As for division in the party: speaking for me – I have voted dem because I believed they were FOR looking out for the little guy, women, minorities (of all stripes), the environment, children, elderly… They have represented the “care-takers” party. I believe in that, so they got my vote.

    I’m not seeing that in the DNC or obama, so I won’t vote for them. I am going to take a hard look at down-ticket dems. They will probably get my vote.

  185. I agree, oldpro. The party’s divided because they ran a black man to stop Hillary from winning. If she had had the AA Democratic vote, she would have won big time.

    Whether this was done because she is a woman or because she is a Clinton, I don’t know; but suspect it was both.

    So I signed up as a Clinton Democrat at clintondems.com.

  186. Today, this topic is a little too painful for me to delve in deeply, but a couple points:

    1. The Party has always been divided. (Think of the days when our congressional majorities depended on die-hard segregationists. )

    2. The party that represents progressive aspirations will always be divided, on pace and priorities and direction. There’s more than one alternative future; there’s only one conservative past. (That’s one reason our playing field slants uphill, every time out.)

    3. A major current divide is between do-gooders and feel-gooders. One major faction is content with doing politics to assure themselves of their own righteousness. The object to compromise more than they do to losing, and usually have to settle for even worse compromises — but the worse they get beat, the more they “own the issue”. The other faction is determined to do politics for results, for the people who need those results. They like winning, and understand bargaining.

    Ordinarily, the two factions get along in a system of uneasy coexistence.

    This year the feel-gooders (who ironically are the real heritage of the 60’s) routed the do-gooders … declaring civil war, and prosecuting that war by means of internecine character assassination, and disturbing the balance of nature.

  187. RonK…..I do like your version of

    “OK…there are two kinds of people….!”

    I don’t dispute your party division into “do-gooders” and “feel-gooders.” Nor do I dispute your definitions of each camp.

    Reminds me a little of my personal favorite of ‘two kinds of people” in politics (or in almost any realm, actually)…workhorses and showhorses. Not very different from your constructs…workhorses are with the do-gooders and showhorses with the feel-gooders (feel good about themselves, that is).

    I do believe that outside of the divide you describe is the class warfare being raged in party leadership…I’ve seen it in our state and I see it nationally…painful to see for it loses over and over while those least able to must pay the price.

  188. Throw in the rich and poor, and what ever. That’s all bull and a distraction. Are you willing to destroy the DNC and start over and lead the way or just follow.

  189. The way you vote come November, will say if you are following or want to lead.

  190. sigh….

    looking at some of these comments makes me sad.

    yeah, i am an obama supporter, but i also supported hillary when she ran for senate in my homestate of new york.

    i supported obama for numerous reasons that i won’t go here, but….

    today, i gave 50 bucks to obama to keep the fight going after mccain and another 50 to hillary so she can pay off her campaign debt.

    i simply can’t stand another four years of repugs…

  191. I think the party is split by two different factions. Those of us who are older now and lived through Kennedy, Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and now another Bush, have matured enough to understand that party ideologue is a bad thing. We got a first hand look at the Religious Right’s death grip on the Republican Party, from Newt Gingrich to the current George Bush. We saw corruption in the party for years, with their ravenous taste for Bill and Hillary Clinton’s blood. We have seen every single presidential candidate run on change, the only one that actually made it happen, was Bill Clinton. We long for the peace and prosperity and opportunity of the Clinton presidency. The other faction here is the rabid liberal faction that longs for the party ideologues of the old liberals, Mondale and Kennedy. As we got older we became more moderate in our views, and we tend to be more towards the center, and we’ve come to recognize that all Republicans aren’t evil, all Democrats aren’t good and pure. I do believe what Bill Clinton said once at the National Press Club – that all things tend to be cyclical. Half of the party is going way back to the Liberal Ideologue of Mondale and McGovern. They are extremist. And then there is Hillary’s supporters who are the centrists. We are fighting for the centrist because we have lived long enough to understand that you don’t win the White House when you are part of the liberal left wing ideologues. You win from the center, which is where most Americans live and what they believe. This is a crucial time. This is the heart and soul of the Democratic Party. We cannot afford to loose. And as bad as it sounds, we may have to hand the Dems a resounding defeat for their own good. We have to try somehow to get through to them, that you cannot govern a nation of centrists and moderates from the far left liberal wing. They repuidate Bill Clinton for not embracing the traditional liberal left wing of the party. They can’t accept governing from the middle because they feel it is a betrayal of the Democrats of old. That is a dangerous mindset. And that is why there has not been any other Dem in the White house for 40 years but Bill Clinton. And I believe, and I hope, that there will not be another Democrat this year, unless it is Hillary Clinton. We cannot validate Obama’s and the DNC’s attempt to take our party back 40 years.

  192. oldpro — I agree. The party is gravitating to the burbs “where the money is”, and an “I’ve got mine” constituency.

    Superficially, Obama’s grassroots fundraising looks like an excape from this decaying orbit … until you check where the money is coming from.

  193. Well, “zilla,” it’s a wee bit late for me to take up party overthrows (again). Been there. Done that. 60s. Vietnam. Civil Rights. ERA. Party split over the war and busing (of kids to integrated schools).

    Your turn now…I’m just attempting to keep the conversation honest…on point…with historical references.

    Saves time and money if you don’t have to reinvent the wheel…over…and over…and over. That’s the whole point of a liberal arts education, ya know?

  194. feel gooders v do gooders

    great description RonK, I think you nailed it

  195. Well old pro. I see you like Howard Dean’s leadership. So, just go along, old pro. be happy.

  196. Zilla….reading comprehension is a skill….and a desireable and useful one.

    FYI…I will not be a Dean Democrat nor will I stay in the party if Obama is the nominee. I will be an independent.

    Your turn to fight the good fight for leadership of the party. At 71+ I’m tired, not all that well and have spent the few $$$ I had on Democrats. I’m not sticking around to watch domestic violence and I’ve never been an enabler. I’ve called the cops and asked for a restraining order and I expect you to enforce it.

    Do your duty, soldier.

  197. Didn’t Hillary Clinton just endorse Obama? Where is the divide?

  198. LHinSeattle, on June 7th, 2008 at 6:17 pm Said:
    rojo7449, on June 7th, 2008 at 4:07 pm Said:
    Teresa, on June 7th, 2008 at 3:51 pm Said:
    LHin Seattle: Do you think Obama will win Washington?
    (signed Teresa in Sammamish)
    May I put in my penny of a thought?
    McCain alienated Boeing when

    IMO the Boeing design was actually a poorer design than the competition. Boeing moved their headquarters to what, Chicago? Saying there was a poor climate for business here in Seattle. So I could care less about Boeing.


    Boeing has 75,500+ employees in the state of WA. They don’t care about their design, they care that McCain bragged about having stood in the way of them getting government contracts.

    WA is Blue because of the greater Puget Sound area, so the Boeing employees, vendors, families and friends do have a fairly strong voice in election results for the state.

    Obama didn’t help himself not knowing what Hanford was, but the eastern side of the state is pretty solid red.

    I’m not a fan of Christine G. Mostly for her AG days, though. She doesn’t seem to get bad press as governor.

    Patty Murray is up for her re-election this year. I went to school with Patty, so I vote for her just for fun and because she’s a democrat. But, she also has a no nonsense approach to her decisions. She started with Clinton, stayed with Clinton, and I like that about her.

    Jay Inslee is my rep at the moment, until not long ago, it was Reichert…I see Burner is challenging him again.

    Inslee, Murray, Cantwell, Dicks, I trust will either stay with Clinton, or readily return to her if anything happens between now and convention to put her in frontrunner status.

    Sure are a lot of Seattle area people here.

  199. I worked for a large aerospace company in the Seattle area for a number of years – particularly the years associated with the first tanker deal…

    I wasn’t proud of Boeing screwing around on the contract, hiring the decision maker, moving the HQ to Chicago (interesting – no?)… Not awarding the contract the 2nd time around isn’t a deal breaker to me.

    If obama is on the ballot in November, McCain will get my #2 pencil.

  200. Oh, but on your last point, there do seem to be a bunch of Seattle area folks here. I think anything local has been obama’d for a while.

  201. Nicely put jdona!

  202. I agree that we have to take back the party. In terms of “progressive vs. centrist”, I find nothing about blatent misogyny progressive at all. The Clintons are the true progressives who are work horses that get things done. The Deaniacs are power hungry left wing facists who used Obama, election rigging, race baiting and a disgusting display of misogyny to achive a power grab and to chase the Clintons out.

    This “new democratic party” is made up of extreme left wing facist elements that are too dangerous to ignore.

    We have to reform it!!! I personally, as a Clinton fan and would love to see them rein again. They are not ilitist, or a dynisty. The are from the people and their form of government it to work for the people, all of them. They are fighters and they never give up. They represent the heart and sole of this country. That’s way we need them. Can you think of anyone else that fits the bill????THEY ARE WINNERS!!!!!




  203. I agree that we have to take back the party. In terms of “progressive vs. centrist”, I find nothing about blatent misogyny progressive at all. The Clintons are the true progressives who are work horses that get things done. The Deaniacs are power hungry left wing facists who used Obama, election rigging, race baiting and a disgusting display of misogyny to achive a power grab and to chase the Clintons out.

    This “new democratic party” is made up of extreme left wing facist elements that are too dangerous to ignore.

    We have to reform it!!! I personally, am a Clinton fan that would love to see them rein again. They are not ilitist, or a dynisty. They are from the people and their form of government is to work for the people, all of them. They are fighters and they never give up. They represent the heart and sole of this country. That’s way we need them. Can you think of anyone else that fits the bill????THEY ARE WINNERS!!!!!




  204. @ Falstaff:

    . . . there is a longing for conflict to be over, for racism and sexism to be reduced to the “identity politics” of our tribal past, for the human trip to graduate, finally, to the broadband-enabled Jane Jacobs-urban, creative-class utopia that is its destiny . . .

    Jane Jacobs? You’re citing Jane Jacobs, of all people, in the same breath as Obama’s arrogant brigade of utopian assholes? Yikes. Consider this, from her magnificentl The Death and Life of Great American Cities:

    As in all Utopias, the right to have plans of any significance [belong] only to the planners in charge,

    who also take it upon themselves to anticipate any and all of a community’s needs, suppressing those that develop organically and/or that otherwise fail to conform to the totalitarian plan. I am perhaps not the first to note the same totalizing, authoritarian impulse in Barack Obama and his lovely wife, Michelle.

  205. @ Palomino:

    I love Jane Jacobs — and I’m a devotee of ‘Death and Life.’ And obviously, I don’t love Obama.

    Having said that, I don’t think he’s a fascist; I think he’s a personality cultist, with only the vaguest ideas about governance. It doesn’t seem to me that his impulse is to construct centralized planning agencies, of the kind Jacobs crusaded against. To the degree he’s actually thought about what he’ll do if he comes into power, it seems to consist mostly of ‘bringing people together’ in his presence.

    But the comment you cite was focused on his ‘creative class’ followers. And I do think Jacobs’s recognition of emergence, of complexity and of market forces — in dynamic relationship with intelligent but not overweening state agencies and the political process — would be pretty copacetic to these folks, if they heard about it. Again, I don’t see them as fascists, either — except to the degree that any “movement” can devolve into something fascistic. But I think it would be hyperbolic to see these naive young things as longing today for that.

  206. For me, it’s all about health care. Obama does not offer universal health care, and because of that his plan will fail, which will give the anti-universal health care folks the ammunition to kill it.

    I hate that so many suffer and die because of a lack of basic health care. It’s inhumane, and embarrassing to boot, for us to let over 20,000 die every year.

  207. Well old pro. You have only 5 on me. And you should know. The strugle never ends. It goes on and on and on and on and on. If you think we are wasting our time, and your tired, been there, done that. No one cares. oooooh wise one.

  208. One argument I receive from my die-hard Dem party-unity people is that “maybe Obama will surround himself with lots of smart people.” That one leaves me speechless!

    Even they believe he’s in way over his head!

    Upon closer inspection, it’s obvious both parties are composed of “strange bedfellows”. It’s amazing either party ever unites.

    McCain’s followers and Hillary’s followers could form a much needed “Moderate Party”! (I’ve been advocating that proposition since Kerry’s loss in 2004).

  209. Do we really want the Zbig clan running foreign policy? Obama, similar to Bush, is immature and lacks detailed knowledge of the world.Therefore, we will be run by the “secret committee” of the “knowledgeable.”.

    Zbig claim to fame is talking about human rights while supporting Pol Pot and later arming the radical extremists in Pakistan and Afghanistan. It will be new resurgence of the same old cold war politics that got us to this point in the first place. The key will be to use people as pawns to contain Russia in a Chess Game and to hell with the consequences allowing genocide when it is to our advantage and the stoning of women and gays.

  210. Why is there a divide? Because some won’t follow her lead.


    But most will.

  211. @ Falstaff:

    Please note, I did not say “fascist” in connection with Obama. I said “totalizing” and “authoritarian,” and I stand by those adjectives as descriptors of Obama’s impulses, however benevolent they may appear under currently indirect lighting conditions. Otherwise, thanks for your intelligent response.

  212. Go be COUNTED…Hillary supporters are being counted..email your friends and have them pass it on…Let us reach the millions!!!!!!!!!!


  213. ==============================================ALERT:




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