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Note to new readers

Welcome to The Confluence. We have noticed over the past couple of days that our readership has spiked. We know why you’re here. We understand what you’re wrestling with. The rest of the blogosphere may consider us cockeyed optimists or just “shrieking band of paranoid holdouts” (is that what Kos called us?), but we know better.

You are not alone. You are not crazy. You aren’t a racist. Or immature.

What you are is angry and mystified at how the Democratic Party could stupidly turn on one of its own and pick the weaker candidate in a year when they should have swept the field.

You’re sick and tired of being a second class citizen who always has to wait for the boyz to cast their merciful eyes upon you.

You’re disgusted with the way the media has once again chosen our nominee.

We hear you. We’re not going anywhere. We are 18 million strong. We are located in large Democratic states and swing states who got royally reamed by Donna Brazile and Co. last week. We *will* be heard. We’re still working out the details on how that’s going to happen. But one thing is for certain: we are legion. If we stick together and hold our ground, we will be heard.

Keep your heads and hang in there.

One more thing: Many of you may be unfamiliar with the concept of a haka. A haka is a maori war dance. The purpose of the haka is to intimidate and undermine the confidence of the opponent. The Obama campaign, in collaboration with the media, has been very skillful in the use of the haka. It is psychological warfare. Some of you may be listening to talk radio lately and hear people calling in saying they are going to vote for Obama because even though their candidate lost, they are still Democrats after all and they have to be loyal to the party. Now, some of these people may sincerely feel this way. But my gut feeling is that some of these callers may be part of a haka to make you feel helpless and hopeless.  That leads to depression and resignation and if you go that route, then you can’t be of any use to Hillary and her goals, whatever they may be. She needs to get a lot accomplished and she needs your support. So, no matter what anyone else tries to talk you into, hold fast to your beliefs. Do not compromise your principles. Stand your ground. Keep your eyes on the prize. “Choose something like a star to stay your mind on and be staid”.

Basic site guidelines: We do not engage in character assassination or rumormongering. Speculation is OK, accusations are not. We object to the use of right wing talking points regarding Senator Obama. There is no need to call him a muslim or denigrate his racial background. There are many other reasons to not want to vote for him. GOP memes are not some of them. Trollish comments will be deleted. You know who you are and we won’t let our readers be harrassed. This is not censorship. You have plenty of places on the web where you can register your opinion. Feel free to roam. I went through the spam filter last night and death threats are definitely uncool whether directed at us or to one of the candidates. Those will be taken very seriously and we will take appropriate action if we need to.

237 Responses

  1. I for one am glad to be here and away from TaylorMarsh’s site, which has now been occupied by the Brownshirts For Obama.

  2. THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE. I’m ready for action, to
    have my beliefs heard and respected. I voted with my vote,
    and that was not heard. So now I will vote with my pocketbook
    (boycotting advertisers on CNN & MSNBC), my feet (can’t wait
    to join a march), my words (writing letters), my voice (making
    phone calls), and my hands (painting big NOBAMA signs).

    Let’s go!

  3. Republican recruiters have already come calling at our “Invitation to Democrats in Exile” foyer. My response, reproduced here:

    If you’re looking for converts, look elsewhere. You Republicans had your chance to govern, and America is FUBAR as a result. The task of damage control falls to the next 7 Presidents, more or less, and it’s unfortunate that there may be not a single fit candidate on the ballot in November 2008. A pity, but we’ll start over as many times as it takes.

    If Obama is the Democratic nominee — and that’s still an IF — McCain will have my vote, for reasons I’ll explain if and when the time comes. That doesn’t mean I think he’s fit to hold office, or that I find Republican ideas suddenly appealing.

    If it’s converts you want — just follow Obama’s herd, and pick ‘em off as the Hopium huffers begin to fall sick and lame. The mass disappointment that’s sure to follow his mass hysteria will surely turn some young minds to the cynicism re politics and government on which Republican exploitation feeds.

  4. riverdaughter (I so like that name), I am new here (about a week or two old since I heard katiebird on the Clinton blogger conference call) and I want to thank you for staying with the likes of us and not “selling out” in the name of unity or party loyalty and providing us with this wonderful forum.

    We (I think I can speak for at least a large subset) are here because of the unfairness and injustice perpetrated by the party and we feel that we have to put our own convictions and principles of fairness and justice before party loyalty and unity. For many of us character and perhaps morality reins supreme (we’re all idealists that way) and we have seen scant evidence of that in Obama (I can list all instances where he failed us, but won’t) which is perhaps the one, single reason why we reject him.

  5. Thank you Riverdaughter! Count me a PUMA! I am a TalkLeft refugee – they are ‘supporting our candidate’ over there – its too much to bear.

    What I would love to see here is the same format for posting that Jeralyn has where one can comment and rate other comments. I love it. If you like it too, and money is what you need to install it, I would be happy to contribute.

  6. Thank you for the space here Riverdaughter. This guy is also now lost in the wilderness and I’ll add this site to my daily rather than weekly jaunts.

    For other crazies like myself, I have a petition going on my blog. If you feel so inclined I’d welcome all the signatories I can get.

    Petition for a McCain Clinton Unity Ticket

  7. well, i’ve been in a forward position and not around here much, but i certainly appreciate the service you’ve provided with this forum.

    we’ll be here for a while. i’m a long-term democrat, having helped clean up the messes from 1968, 1972, 1980, 1984, 1988, 2000, 2004… did i miss any?

    after the party’s over, the adults carry on and the kids sleep off their hangovers. that obama kool-aid will give you a nasty one, too.

  8. “Brownshirts for Obama”…LOL! Did you make that up Joe? It sounds good to me.

  9. FYI, at TalkLeft, BTD (Armando) has a post up setting forth his guidelines for discussion under the emerging circumstances. Not altogether prohibitive.

  10. According to this morning’s WSJ, we are “angry white feminists” to whom Obama should not bend. He needs to prove he’s tougher than we are. You let a bunch of angry white feminists think they have a right to tell you what they think, and the next thing you know, you’re singing in the Vienna Boys’ Castrati Choir.

    BTW: Since when does the WSJ editorial board give Obama advice? If I were Obama I’d think twice about accepting it. But he won’t. He’ll be too concerned about being manly and less concerned about doing whatever he can to keep as many of Clinton’s supporters in the Party as he can. Because, you know, 18 million voters are fungible — he can always pick them up in Colorado and New Mexico.

  11. It appears that Hillary will be suspending on Saturday. I know we all hope that she retains control of her delegates and that November will find her on the ballot. Should Hillary not be the nominee in November, we will each find our own way to reject Senator Obama, but a united effort to do it is essential.

    I was one of the first women at an all-male college, and by and large, we succeeded in integrating women into the culture of the school in the time it took us to get through. We were lucky because there were 20+ of us, and when things got tough, we had each other. We also welcomed each successive group of women with open arms instead of being a “We were here first club”. In other colleges where only one or two women were admitted, the integration often failed or was very messy. It was a long four years for us, and it’s a long time to November in political terms.

    As the months till then go by, we are going to need each other, and we are going to have to have assurance that there are indeed enough of us to do credible damage to the DNC so that we will be noticed. We need to begin scouring for the other pockets of resistance and find a way to support each other. If that happens, the common meeting ground is going to have to have enough network resources to handle a lot of traffic. Before I start putting links to the Confluence and PUMA all over the place, Riverdaughter, are you prepared and willing to take on the traffic? If not, and I would understand why, do you have a suggestion about where we should build the base? It’s important to keeping morale up to know just how big the resistance is.

  12. This is my first post here,after finding this site during the wonderful live blogging that was done during the RBC meeting.

    Thank you for this place, I consider myself a member of the PUMA party now.


  13. I just want to identify myself so that you know that you can include this long-time reader in the PUMA movement!

  14. It’s gratifying to know there are others out there having the same reations to the recent travesties of the Democratic party! AT the moment the vehicles for expression/organization are quite amorphous, so I hope some unified locations/leaders emerge in order to channel our feelings productively. I endorse your call not to be reduced to unwarranted invective against B.O., if only because it distracts from the genuine deficiencies and legitimate concerns that exist regarding him. For starters, people have largely overlooked the entirely legitimate interest in the principles of the “religion” he endorses. I think if you ask theologians and religious scholars about the tenets of Black Liberation Theology (BLT), you will get some rather interesting answers. I think it is of general public interest to have an open and objective discussion of the politico-religious principles of BLT—after all, this movement is bound to grow by leaps and bounds if it is the professed religion of the POTUS. (The documents I and some colleagues are working through at the moment might surprise, if not alarm many people.)

  15. Thanks Ron but I am not interested in reading Armando. Jeralyn was great but she has made herself clear: she will support Obama now. I don’t and I have to make a stand somehow. Which is hard since the party has pulled the rug out from under my feet.

  16. RD, the Confluence is the next Kos, I’m sure of it. And corrente-wire is the next HuffPo.

    Well done!

  17. You let a bunch of angry white feminists think they have a right to tell you what they think, and the next thing you know, you’re singing in the Vienna Boys’ Castrati Choir.

    Litigatormom, you rock!

    You too, Ronkseattle. Love your message to Republican recruiters.

  18. Note to all regarding the haka dance: As a proud UGA alumnus, remember the recent Sugar Bowl! Haka be damned in the face of a better team. They dance, we dp. Go, PUMAS (and of course, Go ‘Dawgs!)

  19. Riverdaughter, where is your ‘contribution’ button? You are going to need some help here.

  20. I second Samanthasmom! Let’s organize! We are legion, 18 million strong! We need to make our voices heard for the future of our daughters, granddaughters, great-granddaughters! We can change minds. Shape opinions. Weigh in. Let’s go!

  21. Litigatormom, you do rock! LOL. I’m a litigatormom too.

  22. hi, everyone. I was a regular reader over at TM but not a regular poster. Soon Clinton supporters will become the new trolls over there since Tailor will be campaigning against McCain. I’m just glad to have this site as my new home. Troll free zone.

    By the way, how do I join PUMA? Do I need to fill out a form or something? Forgive me. I’m fairly new to blogging. Thanks

  23. RD: I don’t comment here any more because I am not a PUMA, but I think the site guidelines (above) might benefit from more clarity about how widely or narrowly you want to define this online community. More specifically, whether or not you want to host discussions of the relative merits of voting for Obama vs. the PUMA route–by which I don’t mean opening it up to people who are actual Obama supporters, but rather to people who support Clinton and dislike Obama, but are nevertheless considering him as a grudging option. In other words, a forum for Clinton supporters who are working through what they want to do, vs. a forum for those who’ve made their decision. So there’s my long-winded question.

  24. Thank you so much for providing a space for us. After 28 years of watching political matchups, I have finally seen a candidate that should be president – HRC.

    I want to add my voice to those out there that reject Obama as the candidate.

  25. dhelz: go to PUMApac to add your name to a growing list.

  26. ok, thanks riverdaughter.

  27. Likely BTD’s “guidelines for discussion” will change with BTD’s mood, and Jeralyn’s will be completely against posting even rational anti-Obama discussions. I have no desire to write big long posts that will be deleted. Talkleft is a great site, but it isn’t one to accept opposing views.

    It’s comfy here. MMMM.

    Not to direct people away from this site, but if you’ve read all the way through the posts here, and need more to read, the Yahoo group, Hillary_Clinton_In_2008 will change to an “Anti-Obama” site soon. People are told not to join if they’re planning on voting for the “flim-flam man”. Here’s a link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Hillary_Clinton_In_2008/

  28. Thank you, RD, for this post. You are so eloquent.

  29. Carter on Obama in 2006 from Charlie Rose — talk about CDS working overtime when he endorsed Obama now.

  30. Thanks for the official welcome, Riverdaughter. I have commented once or twice during one of your lovely cocktail parties and I hope to do more than lurk in the future. Since the Democratic Party insists it has no more use for this racial equality supporting, misogyny destroying, LGBT defending, voters’ rights advocating woman, instead of leaving right away, I am a proud PUMA. My money will go toward retiring Senator Clinton’s expenses, supporting candidates who support what used to be Democratic ideals and the Bill Clinton Foundation. My energy will remain focused on saving the party from itself in case it sees the light and needs to draft Senator Clinton. After the convention, I will, again, rethink my options. I am so happy to be here and I thank you for providing this space.

  31. Wow! guys you’ll have to read this. Found this link over at camille’s site (ex marshans).

    Its about Team Obama’s continuing strong arm techniques.

  32. Angry white feminists? Nah, more like Pi$$ed of PUMAs.

    And one thing the pin-headed pundits and the corrupt leadership of BOTH parties might want to remember is that riled up people tend to vote. And Pi$$ed Off PUMAs ain’t voting for Obama or any other candidate that doesn’t stand for democracy. At least this old PUMA ain’t.
    (I have no idea why I start talking like Ma Kettle when I get angry. Sorry.)


  34. Everybody — go and read Corbett’s article today. Spot on!


  35. Between NO QUARTER and your site, you have been my go to places for several months now. I am sort of out there wondering in the desert right now. I cannot vote for Obama even if Oparh does her happy dance till Nov. For the first time in my life [my first vote was for RFK in the Cal. pri.] I will be voting for and electing a REP POTUS. What a strange world I am living in today when true mob rule is reigning supreme in my PARTY. At least here at your site I know I am not alone. Thank-you.

  36. There is no room to ram him down my throat since he will be meeting the bile that is coming up to meet him halfway.

  37. To me, Obama is not a nominee yet. I will continue to make a case for why he is weak and why we will lose if he is the nominee in the hopes that things may change in August and wiser heads may prevail. That is my continuing contribution to my candidate, Clinton.

  38. Should we create a 527 that will have ads against Obama. I just can’t believe that the Democratic party would nominate someone by stealing another candidate’s delegates and Hillary is doing nothing about that – why?

  39. Hi all! I’m a former Marshan. I respect Taylor’s opinion but I will NOT vote for Obama and absolutely agree with PUMA!! I just called the DNC to tell them as much and I got a big argument from a DNC rep who claims that HRC did NOT win the poplular vote. I said they would spin it however they wanted, that’s the way the whole thing has gone anyway. I said that I had torn up my Democratic voter registration card and was mailing it to them, plus I am filing to register as an Independent. And, that I would not “fall in line” and vote for Obama! I said “remember this conversation when you crash and burn in November.” Then he said it was our fault (HRC campaign). Anyway, thank you Riverdaughter for providing this site!

  40. My thoughts at least:

    As far as “What is to be done”? these are my thoughts:

    … I’ve started noticing an small upsurge of links to our posts on Republicans over the past year. One from HuffPo yesterday, ditto Yglesias.

    So, I don’t feel compelled to spend time repackaging 2003-2007’s critique all over again for 2008, given that people are already finding past work. If others want to start posting on that, then more power to them, though I would argue such posts are likely to be redundant. However, as far as functionality, the A list is fully capable of handling McCain; the problem for me, since they’ve abandoned the media critique, is that I can’t trust their content not to be truthy any more than I trust the rest of the press into which they are now fully integrated, so I’d have to do their work all over again too. No thanks.

    Better to work on new things (and set the record straight on open issues, like caucuses). Things like universal health care, for example, won’t come from Obama because his base doesn’t care about that. Therefore, any pressure has to come from outside.

    We’re going to get a right or a center-right government in 2009, and either way, the order of the day in the Village will be consolidating Bush’s authoritarian gains, not rolling them back, and implementing whatever “Shock Doctrine” policies are deemed to be needed by Our Betters. We’re going to need new things to deal with all that. Truthiness rots policy….

    I’ve already more than paid my dues fighting “the real enemy.” It’s time for something new, though I don’t think we can know what that is….

  41. I think what people do not understand is how important it is that the DNC be not rewarded nor vindicated for their behavior with a win. They, and Obama, have let the media have a free ride trashing the Clinton Adm., misogyny and vulgarity against HRC and women in general. What does it say about the US that the nutcracker was being sold at airports under the CBS logo?
    People say, ah but the Dems ar eso much better than Reps. We know that and precisely b/c of that ; since the Rep. will not stand up for much if we let the DNC and Obama get away with this the DNC as it once was will be gone forever.
    Will they learn from this is they are defeated? I don’t know but I surely will try.

    Never again: No rewards, no vindication, no pardon.


    One million women can make a difference today and tomorrow and the next day. Donate $11.44 to Hillary’s campaign to retire her campaign debt. That way she can spend her time working for us in the Senate rather than having to rely on Obama to organize and accompany her on fundraising events to retire her campaign debt.

    At least she will not have to be campaigning for him out of financial need. It may be that she wants to keep herself out there to further the cause of her lifelong commitment to service for the American family. Heck, the Democrats could nominate anyone–even Gore–in August if the heir apparent is not obviously not a viable candidate. It ain’t over til the balloons fall.

    From Bloomberg:


    Obama Campaign Open to Helping Clinton Pay Off $20 Million Debt

    Money for Clinton to retire her campaign debt — $11.4 million of which is owed to herself — may help smooth relations between the two camps following a 16-month primary campaign where the candidates at times exchanged personal attacks. The urgency for Clinton, 60, is she has until the Aug. 25-28 Democratic convention to pay off her $11.4 million personal loan. Otherwise, by law she can recoup no more than $250,000.

  43. Yes, we’re “angry white feminists,” “hurt,” etc. Next we’ll be bitter gun owners.

    I’m glad they’re minimizing this, because if they nominate Obama, their minimization will lead to exactly what we want (if Hillary isn’t the nominee)…..Obama loss in landslide.

  44. The media picked Bush and look where that got us. The media picked Obama and well — I don’t want to know what that will bring.

    On a side note, what do they call my husband and all the other men who feel exactly as we do?

  45. Rich in PA: I hear what you’re saying but I think the people commenting here are rejecting Obama out of principle. They see the Democratic party violating its *own* principles. The rejection of Obama has as much to do with the party itself as Obama. The feeling is that if the party goes this far out of its way to cast off half of its base (I actually think it’s more than that), then it is no longer the party we think it is. That can’t be rewarded because then we are hostages to a party infrastructure that does not feel it needs to be responsive to us. See what I’m getting at? You may keep your right to choose but lose your social security to privatization. Keep your right to choose your doctor but lose your insurance over time because not everyone is buying in. Keep your right to work in any profession, but lose your right to hold would be discriminators accountable. The party has sold out and gotten rid of one whole wing. If it’s not going to represent me, it is not entitled to my vote.
    So, you can post an argument in favor of Obama if you want but you would be missing the point.

  46. Consider me a sticker (to PUMA) and not a folder to the DNC. Your site is an oasis for people like me. No vote for Obama from this quarter.

    Have to say ‘hi’ to newhampster too, and tell you how much
    I always enjoyed your posts over at mydd.com. You were one
    of the bright spots there (along with alegre and some others).

    Here’s why a McCain/Clinton ticket intrigues me: When I used
    to ponder Clinton as a GE candidate, I thought about how she
    might appeal to Republican women. I believe that there is a
    deep and untapped reservoir of shared experience, values, and
    concerns. For example, I know deeply Christian people and
    know that they are much like me in so many ways (more like
    me than unlike me) even though I’m a complete nonbeliever.
    Hillary’s candidacy opened up, for me, the possibility of
    reaching out across a ‘divide’ that has been fostered for the
    benefit of political expediency. That opportunity for Hillary
    has been shut down, but a McCain/Clinton ticket would reopen

  48. River Daughter, I recommended your blog to several regulars at TaylorMarsh…



    It may be a bit nuanced, but I think many Hillary supporters are

    1)Pissed as hell, and will not make nice with Obama
    2)Remain VERY Liberal; nothing’s changed, just the obamanation has tried to silence those who object to his/their tactics
    3)Will possibly vote for McCain on principle; we will not be made into hypocrites, and we do not condone obama’s behavior/dirty politics.

    Seriously…I couldn’t have expected anything less than this post; you worded it soooo well..THANK YOU

  49. Down: Regarding 527, PUMA-PAC is a 527. Riverdaughter has a link to their site on the right side of this page.

  50. You want to hear about party unity? You want us to come crawling to your candidate to beg for unity and a space under his tiny tent?

    PARTY? I have NO PARTY! Hunted, despised, living like a racist, low information voter…. The JUNGLE is my home! I will show the Democratic Party that I can be its master!

    I nominate Bela Lugosi as an honorary member of PUMA.

  51. Heather, Thank you.

    I have a dear friend, republican all her life with a husband who is a town councilor. Over Christmas she told me she looked forward to voting for Hillary in the fall. There are millions just like her.

    That ticket would be true unity.

  52. I have to say a McCain/Clinton ticket is more inviting than an Obama/Clinton. But the only one that makes me tingle to my toes is Clinton/?

  53. PatJ,
    where do you come up with these lines? you must keep your family in stiches!

  54. The same media that sold America George Bush and the Iraq war has now sold the Democratic Party Barack Obama. Does anyone believe that the MSM worked so hard for Obama because they thought he would be better for America or better for them and their corporate sponsors?

    Axelrod reminds me of that guy in the 90’s who created all the “Boy Bands” that were sold to preteens. Obama is the political equivalent of these groups. He’ll last about as long. Look what has already happened to Deval Patrick. His “Politics of Hope” has turned into “We Hope You’ll Be Gone Soon.”

  55. LizfromFL, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:26 pm Said:
    Hi all! I’m a former Marshan. I respect Taylor’s opinion but I will NOT vote for Obama and absolutely agree with PUMA!! I just called the DNC to tell them as much and I got a big argument from a DNC rep who claims that HRC did NOT win the poplular vote. I said they would spin it however they wanted, that’s the way the whole thing has gone anyway. I said that I had torn up my Democratic voter registration card and was mailing it to them, plus I am filing to register as an Independent. And, that I would not “fall in line” and vote for Obama! I said “remember this conversation when you crash and burn in November.” Then he said it was our fault (HRC campaign). Anyway, thank you Riverdaughter for providing this site!


    Welcome Liz! Former Marshan here, as well! I requested my membership be deleted; specifically because you can’t be “FOR CHANGING THE SYSTEM” when you turn around and act subservient to it, after months of fighting it.

    I’m no quitter.

  56. johnny, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:36 pm Said:
    The same media that sold America George Bush and the Iraq war has now sold the Democratic Party Barack Obama. Does anyone believe that the MSM worked so hard for Obama because they thought he would be better for America or better for them and their corporate sponsors?

    Axelrod reminds me of that guy in the 90’s who created all the “Boy Bands” that were sold to preteens. Obama is the political equivalent of these groups. He’ll last about as long. Look what has already happened to Deval Patrick. His “Politics of Hope” has turned into “We Hope You’ll Be Gone Soon.”


    I’ve been saying this all along; obama IS bush!

  57. Obama throughout the campaign has gone out of his way to disguise and fudge his principles and policy designs. What does he — and his insider backers — want to do? I have no idea, and that subterfuge bothers me a lot, as does their saying they want to win an election without the middle class.

  58. RD, my thoughts completely. I wanted a Clinton Presidency, but, now it is as though, I have been whacked by a ruler and told to go to the corner.

    This is not a “if I can’t have it my way, then I won’t play” mentality. This is my candidate lost, my party deserted me and worse, made me feel insignificant and cast aside. In Hillary’s speech, she described us as invisible and we were.

    I want to be visible and heard.

  59. Terrific post on HAKA!!! I will pass this around.
    Also, I just wanted too mention one thing. The PUMA logo is terrific, and I’m sure you have already though of this but, thought I would throw it out to you… Have you checked the Copy Right of the Sports Clothing Line PUMA? You might want to check if you haven’t already done so.
    I think t-shirts would be dynamite!!!!

  60. This too is my first day to post here. I too am a refugee from another site.Thanks! RiverDaughter. I see some familiar handles here and I am glad to be in their company. I am still hoping somehow that Hillary will be the nominee. But failing that, I will have to vote for someone else other than Obama. I refuse to vote for a party APPOINTED nominee and disregard the majority that voted for Hillary. It looks like that the rules were being quietly changed all along to stop Hillary. Perhaps even as soon as she won the senate seat in New York.

  61. *waves to newbies* Hello there, fellow Conflucians! Welcome, welcome, welcome. So glad you’ve found us — just in time.

    Trying to make me feel ANYthing for the current DNC/Dem Party leadership, and their decisionmaking, will not work. Not this time. Because I truly believe the Obama cabal is a FAR more reminiscent to Bush 43’s gang than a McCain administration. That’s just how badly they’re screwing things up. And it’s all on them. Not my fault they’ve chosen this route. But I won’t aide them in their divisive, corruptive and self-serving pursuits.

    Which is why I eagerly await any alternatives presented before us in time for the elections. (Looks at RD — any suggestions? 🙂 ) Otherwise, I’ll gladly betray *this* “Democratic” Party, in the name of all I hold dear and sacred.


  62. What the DNC has done is written the final chapter of the Bush “legacy”.

    The discontent in this country from the Bush fatigue syndrome afforded them the opportunity to push forward a black candidate with unremarkable credentials. Their supposition is that no matter the outcome of the primary, we would all dutifully fall in line to the mandate. The hints have been there from the beginning if we had just read the tea leaves.

    Change was the mantra of the day. What we failed to discern was that the word “change” meant changing the entire makeup of what the Democratic Party has stood for. The backbone of the party has been us. The change was the purging from the ranks the old, gays, blue collars, Latinos, lower income, and women.

    The cries from this blog represent the loss of the values we have long held. Clean elections, one man, one vote, universal healthcare, secure social security, equal rights, and so forth.

    To request “unity” is demanding that we no longer hold those beliefs to be our cause. I would prefer to walk away than to embrace the change they offer.

  63. destardi: It’s so funny, because now the O-bots say,” look, didn’t we tell you? Clinton is polarizing”.

    No, calling us racists is polarizing, calling us “hurt” is polarizing. Lining up the whole DNC against Clinton is polarizing.

    This really is a travesty. Thank GAWD that Dean never went farther than the scream. Imagine if he’d done to the country what he’s done to the DNC.

  64. Are there really enough Clinton supporters who have been alienated to have a voice in the November election? I don’t resent other people’s voices being heard, but this coalition of Obama and the mainstream media is unprecedented. Is there any way to bring some balance back to the U.S. political system? Right now it is mission accomplished for the Clinton haters.

  65. I’ve been a reader and sometimes commenter here for awhile, and any time I’m feeling as if I’m the only one who is angry and heartbroken, I come to this site and remember that I’m a member of a great, big, wonderful family of strong women and men who won’t allow themselves to be beat up and pushed around.

    I’ve bee a card-carrying, voting Democrat since 1972. I’m now a proud Independent/PUMA member, and I’ll be voting for McCain in November. I cannot support the Democratic Party for reasons I’m sure we all know, nor can I support the candidate they chose. He is a reflection of all that is not right with this new Democratic Party. To support their nominee would be to condone all that they have done this primary season, and to condone the continuation of that behavior.

    The words of Rabbi Hillel have been echoing in my head: “If I am not for myself, then who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, then what am I? And if not now, when?”

  66. I’m with all of you and I hear what you’re saying about Taylor Marsh. I was on Hillary’s website this morning and even it has been infiltrated by trolls.

  67. Pat, beautifully put. and exactly right.

  68. Murphy: It keeps me from crying. But I am Irish. Pass that along. Anyone named Murphy will understand.

  69. On a serious note: I hope Hillary will do the smart thing –

    1. Announce that she will suspend campaign as the primary season is now over and the GE phase has begun, with presumptive nominees selected. Note I do not say withdraw her campaign or concede victory.

    2. Go on a 3 month country-wide tour that endorses and supports the values and issues of the true Democratic Party. I hope she will use the time to push strongly for universal health care and solutions for economic issues. To change the framing of UHC and economic management – and to give voters what they were robbed of during the primaries – a reasonable discussion on issues that affect their lives, and solutions that address them.

    3. Campaign for down-ticket races. After all, poll after poll has shown that Obama’s voters don’t vote downticket, so she’d be doing a favor for the party – even if it doesn’t know/appreciate it.

    4. Bring her delegates to Denver – and support Obama IF the nomination is his at the end.

    By doing all these, she still wouldn’t be breaking any promises she made in yesterday’s email, right?

  70. Democrats were more “united” in 2000 and 2004 and that failed to change the eventual outcome. Talk about “the math”. Heh.

  71. There’s NO way that Hillary would ever team up with McCain, but if some are seriously contemplating supporting McCain (should all else fail by the convention) then it’s needful to consider what overtures McCain would need to make (e.g., in terms of VP choice, platform) in order for it to be a seriously palatable option. Then there needs to be a way to get a team to help McCain weed out the more “mechanical-dinosaur” movements/speech patterns he sometimes reveals, and play up his strong, authentic, plainspeaking-combined-with-commanding-type-of-tone that effectively makes B.O. look like a dangerously naive child in comparison. Else B.O. is likely to win on agile speaking alone. Maybe McCain with take him to Iraq and can get him to ride around in a military vehicle for a Dukkakis moment!

  72. Some committed Clinton backers declaring McCain support
    Nick Juliano
    Published: Thursday June 5, 2008

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    Some of Hillary Clinton’s most ardent Internet supporters — appearing increasingly bitter at the rapidly coalescing reality that their candidate has lost — are beginning to declare that they are Democrats no longer and pledging their votes to presumptive GOP nominee John McCain.

    While Clinton is planning to formally drop out of the race this Saturday and throw her support behind presumptive Democratic nominee Barack Obama, some of her supporters are openly derisive of her calls for party unity.

    Since Clinton delivered her non-concession speech on Tuesday night, and since word emerged Wednesday that she would accept her loss this weekend, a handful of Web sites and blogs have cropped up to allow her supporter to vent and declare their support for McCain.

    One site is offering Democrats for McCain bumper stickers and another has collected names of dozens of Democrats who say they are planning to leave the party.

    Some pro-Clinton blogs are relishing in this destroy-the- party-in- order-to- save-it attitude, including Larry Johnson’s No Quarter, which dedicated itself to spreading racially tinged rumors and innuendo about Obama throughout the primary.

    Pro-Clinton blog The Confluence has started what it’s calling a PUMA movement; the acronym stands for Party Unity My Ass.

    Another site has cropped up calling itself the National Organization of Hillary Clinton Supporters for John McCain. The site claims to have been started by a one-time Democrat who was outraged over the Democratic Party’s decision to punish delegations from Florida and Michigan for breaking party rules.

    Whether Clinton’s backers break into “Denver! Denver!” chants at Saturday’s formal endorsement remains to be seen, but Obama likely will need plenty of help from the former first lady to shore up her coalition of women, Hispanics and blue-collar voters going into November.

    Obama has had nothing but kind words for Clinton in recent weeks, as it became clear that he would end up as the nominee. At least some Clinton supporters have appreciated the warm reception they received.

    It remains to be seen which faction of Team Clinton will win out

  73. Teresa, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:46 pm Said:
    destardi: It’s so funny, because now the O-bots say,” look, didn’t we tell you? Clinton is polarizing”.

    No, calling us racists is polarizing, calling us “hurt” is polarizing. Lining up the whole DNC against Clinton is polarizing.

    This really is a travesty. Thank GAWD that Dean never went farther than the scream. Imagine if he’d done to the country what he’s done to the DNC.

    Amen sister! (I’m a brother, fyi, haha)

    And yes, Pat Johnson, your post was dead on…principles over party, country over label.

  74. Is Boston Boomer online?

  75. CB, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:27 pm Said:


    One million women can make a difference today and tomorrow and the next day. Donate $11.44 to Hillary’s campaign to retire her campaign debt. That way she can
    I am game for this. I will donate $11.44 to her campaign today.

  76. Hi destardi! Thanks for the welcome! I was feeling real lost before I found this site. I enjoyed reading your posts. I didn’t post as much as some, but it’s nice to be part of a virtual community of people who feel as strongly as I do that Hillary is the most qualified candidate for President and also that Obama is NOT. I really do not understand how anyone could dislike, disrespect, not believe in the qualifications of someone (Obama) and still promote his candidacy and vote for him just because you believe in “the party.” It’s THE PARTY that has abandoned their own principles, not us.

  77. CB, you’re right. We need to help Clinton pay off her debt.

  78. ccwarrior, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:52 pm Said:


    Get the flat out lies from this article; “No Quarter” dedicated to spreading racist rumors and innuendo…The “racism” rumors IS RIGHT; it’s a rumor that Hillary Clinton supporters are racist; nothing else!.

    “The site CLAIMS to have been started by a former Democrat”

    I’M a FORMER DEMOCRAT…funny the writer chose to inflect skepticism , when there are so many of us that it’s more than likely to be the case.

  79. ccwarrior: LOL, “Obama has had nothing but kind words for Clinton in recent weeks”.

    Of course, he let his minions pass on the RFK nonsense, take over the rules committee, and generally slice her to pieces in the media.

    Yeah, really upstanding fellow, that Mr. Obama.

    And I love this article. Just as the DNC does, it highly underestimates the anger from Clinton supporters. Do they really think this will die? I don’t. I’ve never seen anything like this before.

  80. LizfromFL, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:55 pm Said:

    Absolutely Liz…

    Thank you. The thing that irks me the most, is that I know there are many people out there who may be a bit on the timid side, and don’t care for conflict…but my pledge is that I will work for change, if that means voting for McCain. The change is making the Democratic Party wake the hell up, and realize they can’t run like the Republican party and be forgiven…

    They are hypocrites.

  81. One of the postings now up is that Obama is seriously considering Richardson. Like the entire Latino community will just automatically fall in line because this guy is half Spanish. They must take that community for granted because they are not stupid. The Latino community will one day be the biggest voting block in the US and coming out of that community will be people who have struggled and will truly embrace Democratic principles. Their votes will not be turned over that easily.

  82. Teresa, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:58 pm Said:

    Theresa I think they are COMPLETELy underestimating our force.

  83. What I find so outrageous is the fact that we feel the need to explain WHY we’re taking the measures and actions we intend to exercise throughout this election — into November and beyond. It says they really don’t care about our “voices”; not unless they fall in lockstep with their own. I’m DONE explaining why to folks who simply want me to see the “error of my ways” in time to vote for the “Democratic” nominee in November. You wanna know “why”, ask the DNC, BO, his cronies and media sycophants.

    Part Unity My A(unt Fanny)! 🙂

  84. ccwarrior, on June 5th, 2008 at 12:52 pm Said:


  85. “Obama likely will need plenty of help from the former first lady to shore up her coalition of women, Hispanics and blue-collar voters going into November.”


    Women, Hispanics and blue-collar voters? Aren’t we professionals, GBLT, Reagan dems, and much more.

  86. Trolls will be desending upon us.

  87. Kim: Their purpose is to completely minimize what’s happening here. If it doesn’t seem like a movement, then it won’t gain momentum.

    Sorry to whichever O-bot wrote the article, but that ship has sailed.

  88. Well they took me for granted, deemed me invisible and thought I would fall in line. They have no power over me anymore.

  89. Pat,

    I’ve said all along that Richardson was promised the VP nod when he endorsed the Zero. He’s been out like an attack dog at every juncture.

    I also think (pure conjecture) that he wanted the VP nod from Clinton and that was what got Carville so twisted up when Wrong-way Richardson endorsed.

  90. Teresa: The bloc they’re seriously underestimating are those who Clinton voters who are not hellbound to any party and will have no problems considering McCain. (Not every staunch HRC supporter is lives on the web. Yet their feelings and resentment are all too real.) They’ll have to learn that one the hard way I guess.

  91. What upsets me most is that by every logical measure Hillary won this nomination. But the delegates were thrown to hell and that RBC meeting, don’t talk to me about that. I have never been so angry as I was that day. That was the day of my high school graduation and I don’t even remember it that way.

    I never thought there were so many people who felt like I do. As usual we’ve been underestimated. We’ve got a 527. We’ll work on it.

  92. oops sorry rawstory my bad

    Some committed Clinton backers declaring McCain support

  93. The current headlines, “Obama fund-raiser guilty of fraud” should be followed by “DNC guilty of fraud”. BO.’s response, precisely echoing his response regarding Wright, is a preview of what could be expected of him as POTUS:
    “This isn’t the Tony Rezko I knew, but now he has been convicted by a jury on multiple charges that once again shines a spotlight on the need for reform.”

    (Gee and I thought B.O. himself admitted it was “boneheaded” to have let Rezco buy the backyard Michelle demanded even though it was public knowledge he was being indicted.)

    After opening the U.S. to trickery stemming from an all-too-cozy friendship with an enemy leader X, we can be sure B.O. will be professing shock, claiming this isn’t the man he thought he knew…! Only it will then be all of America that will suffer from his boneheadedness!

  94. Another one under the bus. Does this sound familiar? (from FOX News today)

    Obama: “I’m saddened by today’s verdict. This isn’t the Tony Rezko I knew, but now he has been convicted by a jury on multiple charges that once again shine a spotlight on the need for reform.”

    “This isn’t the (fill in the blank) I knew….” Character and judgment issues anyone?

  95. Large chucks of MSM are doing their level best to minimize Obama’s deficiencies. Deficiencies and negatives which will give quite a few voters “concerns” (trying to envision his presidency). Won’t take much for the GOP machine to ratchet up and twist just enough muck to fire up their base. Add that to a growing disaffected “Democratic” party and where’s “the math” in that?

  96. I was laying in bed crying this morning thinking about it all. I must say this thread is balm for the hurting soul. Like all of you, I am stunned that the party I have worked for and believed in has behaved in the unprincipled fashion that I so thoroughly despise in the opposition. I’m not interested in gimmicks to win. I feel exiled.

    So, we have Anglachel, Corrente and the Confluence. We definitely got the better and smarter writers out of the bunch – that’s for sure. I know that there are other bloggers out there that I haven’t discovered yet, that have much to add to the discussion.

    Time wounds all heels. All’s well that ends. When the chickens come home to roost, they bring their strange new friends from the city with them.

    I’d like a party that goes back to FDR’s principles. For those of you who have never seen this, this is Roosevelt’s Economic Bill Of Rights from his 1944 inaugural address.

    It is our duty now to begin to lay the plans and determine the strategy for the winning of a lasting peace and the establishment of an American standard of living higher than ever before known. We cannot be content, no matter how high that general standard of living may be, if some fraction of our people—whether it be one-third or one-fifth or one-tenth—is ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed, and insecure.

    This Republic had its beginning, and grew to its present strength, under the protection of certain inalienable political rights—among them the right of free speech, free press, free worship, trial by jury, freedom from unreasonable searches and seizures. They were our rights to life and liberty.

    As our nation has grown in size and stature, however—as our industrial economy expanded—these political rights proved inadequate to assure us equality in the pursuit of happiness.

    We have come to a clear realization of the fact that true individual freedom cannot exist without economic security and independence. “Necessitous men are not free men.” People who are hungry and out of a job are the stuff of which dictatorships are made.

    In our day these economic truths have become accepted as self-evident. We have accepted, so to speak, a second Bill of Rights under which a new basis of security and prosperity can be established for all—regardless of station, race, or creed.

    Among these are:

    The right to a useful and remunerative job in the industries or shops or farms or mines of the nation;

    The right to earn enough to provide adequate food and clothing and recreation;

    The right of every farmer to raise and sell his products at a return which will give him and his family a decent living;

    The right of every businessman, large and small, to trade in an atmosphere of freedom from unfair competition and domination by monopolies at home or abroad;

    The right of every family to a decent home;

    The right to adequate medical care and the opportunity to achieve and enjoy good health;

    The right to adequate protection from the economic fears of old age, sickness, accident, and unemployment;

    The right to a good education.

    All of these rights spell security. And after this war is won we must be prepared to move forward, in the implementation of these rights, to new goals of human happiness and well-being.

    America’s own rightful place in the world depends in large part upon how fully these and similar rights have been carried into practice for our citizens.

    Riverdaughter, Ron, Katie – thank you so much for what you’ve created here.

  97. I’m loving this place!!! Thanks

  98. There is no way I will ever vote for or support McCain, so I’m glad that a McCain/Clinton ticket will never happen. I just don’t think Hillary could or would do that.

    As for the question asked upthread — do we want to entertain discussion here about whether to vote for Obama or McCain, as opposed to simply not voting for POTUS or writing HRC in, my view would be yes. I think we can tolerate the discussion. It’s an important question for a lot of people who’ve been loyal Democrats over the years, and suddenly find themselves confronted by a weak nominee and a DNC hijacked away from what should have been core Democratic principles.

    For myself, it is not just the specter of losing Roe that makes me unable to support McCain. I think McCain is unacceptable on a number of levels, including the war, the Unitary Executive and on economic policy.

    For me, the question is whether to sit out the POTUS election. If you’d asked me this question a few months ago, I would have thought you were crazy for even asking. Of course I would vote for Obama. That resolve weakened over the course of the primaries, but it wasn’t until the Saturday Afternoon Massacre, in which Obama not only got delegates he didn’t earn, but delegates that HILLARY had earned, that the final straw landed on the camel’s back.

    I have the luxury of abstaining in a state that will go blue no matter what. For folks in swing states, or less reliably blue states, it’s a harder question. I think that we should be giving those people a forum to hash out their own answers, but this isn’t my blog.

  99. I think a McCain-Clinton ticket would obliterate Obama in the GE. And frankly, I don’t understand why Hillary feels any loyalty to the Democratic Party given its appalling treatment of her and of Bill, whereas McCain has truly always respected her (their friendship goes way back).

    I have been reading this blog for a while and it’s always terrific. Like others, I have had to give up on so many sites because they’ve become such crazed pro-O sites–from dkos to mydd to DU even to digby and now, most sadly, Taylor Marsh–we need a refuge.

    And yes, I think they vastly underestimate us. Look at the numbers of people reporting that they wrote to the DNC promising they won’t vote for BO, sending their ripped-up party ID cards, or receipts for McCain donations…

    Remember that a basic rule of business is that for every person that complains about something in writing, 10 others are thinking it but didn’t take the time to write. That’s why if you write a letter of complaint to a business they usually (if they’re smart) bend over backwards to make you happy. The DNC, on the other hand, responds with snippiness and a “they’ll fall in line once they get over their tantrum” attitude. That attitude would destroy a business and it will destroy the DNC. Not that that’s a bad thing.

    Me, voting downticket Dem and McCain for prez.

  100. This is very old news, but I remembered this letter from ‘McCain to Obama and thought it would be interesting to reread. It was written in ’06 and concerns a bipartisan effort on lobby and ethics reform. McCain has some snark in him and he definitely has Obama’s number:


    Welcome to all new members. You’ve found a refuge.

  101. How Clinton’s Supporters Might Be Obama’s Next Big Problem

    Photo: Getty Images

    Last night, Hillary Clinton again picked up the cudgel for “hard-working” Democrats, declaring that she wanted her supporters “to be respected, to be heard and no longer to be invisible.” But in extending her campaign beyond the point of mathematical viability, Clinton is allowing her followers to assimilate even more fully the attacks that she and Bill have mounted on Barack Obama. With both Clintons’ full blessing, many of Hillary’s most ardent fans now view Obama not only as unelectable but illegitimate. And now it’s going to be hard for anyone, even Clinton herself, to bring them back into the Democratic fold during this campaign.
    Online, the Clintonistas’ passion, frustration, and refugee status have fused into an identification with their candidate fully as powerful as that of Obamafans. Mocked if not shunned at many widely read liberal sites such as Daily Kos, Clinton backers now gather at new watering holes, such as Hillary’s Bloggers, a site founded by a former Kos diarist named Alegre. And they express their emotions in the language of post-sixties identity politics, protesting categorical wrongs to their civil rights. The result is an Internet Hillaryland full of intense grievances and extraordinarily wishful thinking. “She’s not backing down because she doesn’t f%&*(ing have to,” Riverdaughter wrote last night at the Confluence. “Hillary Clinton made history tonight and nothing will ever be the same again.”

    The most popular pro-Hillary sites are filled with venom for Obama, who is often sneeringly referred to as “Barky” or “messiah,” and an abiding bitterness toward the Democratic Party. At Taylor Marsh’s site, an epicenter for Clinton support, last weekend’s Rules and Bylaws Committee decisions sent commenters into apoplexy: “In Illinois, he eliminated the competition. In FL, he eliminated the voters. In MI, he stole the voters. Thank God, he is the hope and change candidate. Otherwise, how low would he go?” And: “It was bad enough when the Republicans started rigging the general. Now the DNC is rigging the primaries. What power do our votes have now?”

    At its worst, the Clintonistas’ vehemence has turned downright scary. On May 30, Larry Johnson noted that the Secret Service was investigating two threats posted against Obama on his No Quarter site, and told his readers: “While I don’t believe Barack is qualified to be President, nothing justifies or warrants a death threat. Please play nice.” (The next day, Johnson’s fellow blogger Susan UnPC wrote, “John McCain is a stand-up man. But Barack Obama is a SNAKE IN THE GRASS who is using 1) BULLIES, 2) COERCIVE TACTICS, 3) the THREAT OF VIOLENCE, and 4) PROMISES OF BIG CASH INCOME to FORCE his nomination on the Democratic party.”)

    All this virulence isn’t just Internet howling. It appears to be the leading edge of opposition to Obama’s candidacy: a mostly female, nearly all-white bloc that is growing in solidarity rather than receding at the end of the primary season. Obama recently has built a solid advantage among Democrats in national polls, but only because of a huge gender gap within the party: Obama leads Clinton 57 percent to 37 percent among men, but trails her 49 to 45 percent among women, according to Gallup data released yesterday. And only 43 percent of white women view Obama favorably while 49 percent look at him unfavorably, according to the Pew Research Center. That net rating of minus six is down sharply from plus twenty in February, when 56 percent of white women viewed him favorably.

    Further, Obama’s white-women problem — far more than any purported weakness among working-class voters — is set to cause him trouble against McCain in the fall. Among women, Obama needs liberal professionals as well as suburban values voters to carry states such as Missouri and Pennsylvania, but he’s not getting either group. Nationwide, white women are backing McCain over Obama 49 percent to 40 percent, according to Gallup. And the Democratic delegate fights seem to be a drag on Obama in Michigan, which is trending unusually strongly toward McCain.

    At this point, even a concession speech isn’t going to wash away the resentments and hopes at play among Hillary’s biggest believers, and Clinton shows no signs of giving one, anyway. The Clintonistas are ideologically committed and emotionally wounded — just the kind of voters who could withhold support from the Democratic nominee “on principle” in numbers big enough to threaten Obama in several key states. And there’s no way he wants to toss them the one sop that might mollify them — a Hillary vice-presidency. For months, we all wondered what African-Americans and young voters might do if superdelegates trumped them. Now we — and Obama — get to ask the same thing about white women. —Peter Keating

  102. Hey all – I’m a TM poster still – and occasionally a TM refugee. I have been an avid fan of Riverdaughter, and am glad my community is here.

    We are people without a party it seems and unless Hillary is his opponent, then John McCain will win. We are in-betweeners with what seems like no party and no country. Like Riverdaughter said, my anger is why did the DNC pick the weaker candidate (through cheating and disenfranchisement,nonetheless) so that it would result in a loss for the Democrats in Nov.

    I think many of us are looking for guidance and leaderership – it was Hillary before – and someone who can help us out of this wilderness. I suppose if we stick together we have a community at least who understands.

  103. A Hillary endorsement of Obama (if that were to happen) would not change a toad into a prince.

    No matter who endorses Obama, I still reject him and the Dem party unity pony he rode in on.

  104. “Women, Hispanics and blue-collar voters? Aren’t we professionals, GBLT, Reagan dems, and much more.”

    Kim, their “job” is to continue rendering us an insignificant voice in this election. Not making it any easier for their candidate, that’s for darn sure.

  105. Hello everyone, I’m a new comer here, it’s nice to be amongst Hillary supporters again

  106. I just went over to register on PUMA. LOL I really thought it stood for “Party Unity My Ass!” That sounded pretty good to me! I didn’t know that it was really “People United Means Action” until I copied and pasted the letter to Howie.

  107. *waves* Greetings and salutations, Michelle in Philly. 🙂

  108. Liz – it IS Party Unity My Ass, but Murphy couldn’t do that for a 527/PAC, I certainly approve the “nicer” name.

  109. Thank you edwardian

  110. I just signed on to PUMA, even though I have been a Democrat since 1968. Yes, I am an older white college-educated woman from Massachusetts whose support is no longer valued by the Democratic Party. The sites I can go to for information have shrunk drastically over the last few months and I am excited to have found this community. I will not vote for McCain and will find out if in Mass I can write in Hillary’s name.

    I’m not sure that I will ever understand how the powers that be think it is OK to trash the Clintons, women, and working-class voters. Do you remember when they started to call Clinton supporters “low-information” voters? Well my 39 year college-educated Obama supporting son was really the “low-information” voter because he had never heard of Obama’s ties to Farrakhan (sp?), William Ayers or Rashid kalidi.

  111. @litigatormom, 11:54

    “Since when does the WSJ editorial board give Obama advice? If I were Obama I’d think twice about accepting it.”

    Really? Why? Rupert Murdoch pwns the WSJ, and Murdoch thinks Obama’s going to win. So it’s like William Randolph Hearst advising Teddy Roosevelt what to do about the sinking of the MAINE.

  112. I wish there was a talkradio like blogtalk radio for us PUMAs.


    anyone thinking of setting this up? I have to get some work done!

  113. I understand that emotions are raw right now. But I’m also worried that many would give in and get persuaded later when they see Hillary campaigning for BO. Please stay strong everyone and lets make a statement and let our voices be heard once and for all.

  114. I would so love to write Hillary’s name in, but I don’t think PA allows it.

  115. How’s everybody today?

    WOW, there are new Conflucians and PUMAs growling away!

    I refuse to give in. Even if Hillary has to, I refuse.

    P arty
    U nity
    M y
    A ss !!!

    Which brings us to

    P umas
    U nited
    M eans
    A ction

    So let’s get writing letter to our local newspapers expressing our dissent, contact our local leaders to show that we will not stand for the HIJACK of democracy.

    I HOPE someone is brilliant enough to put together a list of every “Obama” endorser so we can TURN THEM DOWN TOO!

  116. Maybe it is all a ruse — they (powers that be) know that he is corrupt and bad for the country but they also know that he will never be elected but this whole charade gives them credit for nominating a Black candidate and getting it over with? What do you think?

  117. Hi Riverdaughter, et al. I’m new here….another Taylor Marsh defector. I’ll never support the Fraud and the party for which he a Puppet.

  118. A “write-in” option would be great IF I could be assured it would not someone be credited to anyone BUT Hillary Rodham Clinton. Otherwise …

  119. Bush has established a Presidency that explicitly places itself above the law. McCain has indicated that he will further entrench this authoritarianism. Neither Congress nor the Press are willing to challenge it. Another four years may mean a permanent turn away from the essential structure of the Constitution, as the Bush way becomes “the way things are”. We and our children may never have the chance to reverse this that we have now in the imperfect, yet single, Democratic nominee. Please choose wisely!

  120. Let’s have an organized effort that lets the Democratic Party know that we, life long Democrats, reject Obama. I’m one of the Hillary’s Bloggers group and am now working with Pacific John in the Draft Hillary group to get Hillary on the ballot, but also to network with other groups who are rejecting Obama.

    There are several movements and groups popping up in the wake of the most corrupt, biased election we’ve ever seen on a national scale. We should coordinate to show solidarity for the cause and to gain visibility. Whether its Hillary for VP, Clinton Supporters For McCain, Democrats for McCain, draft Hillary or write-in efforts, vote Green Party, or stay home, the common element of all the dissent is that we reject Obama. We are discussing ideas here:


    I, for one, am tired of being told that I will “get over hurt feelings” and vote for Obama. They misunderstand the outrage and I’m tired of being insulted. A few voices will be ignored, but millions of voices will be a deafening roar that cannot be ignored! For the next 5 months, let them bare witness to the backlash.

  121. Who’s in the mood for a press release?

  122. To all the people who disagree with us, I say, why don’t you vote for him so that I don’t have to?

  123. Another four years may mean a permanent turn away from the essential structure of the Constitution, as the Bush way becomes “the way things are”.

    And Obama’s the “alternative”? I’ll pass.

  124. I posted this Anglachel as well but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Clinton is making a strategic move here. Putting her campaign in cold storage (by not releasing her delegates, hopefully), she is taking herself out of the picture for now so the much avoided vetting of Obama can begin. Let us see where it will take us. But come August, if we see that he is in worse shape than now, we the 18 million should raise our collective voice one more time to put the stronger candidate on the November ballot. I am willing to bet, a lot more millions will join us in that effort then.

  125. Each state has its own requirements for a write in candidate. In Florida, you need something like 105,000 signatures. Sarge on the http://www.HillaryClinton.com blog had all the info on it last night. You can probably find his post. It was posted before her letter came out last night about her campaign.

  126. It’s funny how the media always blames Hillary for our feelings towards Obama. Why can’t they give credit where credit is due?

    Obama lost my vote all by himself.

    Did Clinton call me an “typical white person” who is bitter and clings to guns, and religion, and antipathy for those who aren’t like me.” No, Obama did.

    Did Clinton claim superior foreign policy experience because she lived in Indonesia when in grade school? No, Obama did.

    Did Clinton sit in a church and listen to the hate filled rant of her pastor for 20 years? No, Obama did.

    Did Obama speak out FORCEFULLY against pundits and the media calling everyone who didn’t vote for him racist or for his spiritual advisors mocking Clinton from the pulpit? No, Obama didn’t.

    Obama lost my vote ALL by himself. Please let him take credit for something he actually accomplished.

  127. Getting Hillary on November Ballot.. With Campaign
    Staffers from coast to coast…..

    State………Signatures Needed…Deadline File….Filing Fee $



    Arizona…22,000…DEADLINE PASSED.JUNE-4…………………..50,000


    Colorado……Not Needed ..JUNE-17…………………..500













    Louisana…..No Signatures Needed .9-2……………………500











    New Hampshire..3.000…………….8-6…………………..7,500

    New York…….15,000……………8-19…………………..40,000

    New Jersey…..800………………7-28…………………..2,000

    New Mexico…..????

    North Dakota…4,000…………….9-5……………………10,000

    North Carolina..69,345…..JUNE-12…………………..10,000





    Rhode Island….1,000……………9-5……………………2,500

    South Carolina..10,000…………..7-15…………………..25,000

    South Dakota….5000…………….7-1……………………12,500







    West Virginia….15,118……………8-12…………………..40,000



    by Sarge02535

  128. Freedom are your other aliases: Michael57, Omega, Yahya, Catie, Zaphoid,LarsToward because you are using the same tired message– oh, I forgot much like Obama.

  129. Hillary “won the popular vote” ONLY if you “forget” to count the votes of the people in the caucus states. Please stop lying about that issue, OK?

    Obama won fair and square.

    Do you really want John McCain appointing Supreme Court justices?

  130. Lori, on June 5th, 2008 at 1:15 pm Said:

    I feel like we need to convince Hillary of the corruption at the DNC. She has got to see that it is useless trying to save the Democratic Party. Someone please explain to me why she is even trying to save it.

  131. Haka shmaka. I studied Celtic History many years ago. And I will never forget Budika Queen of the Seneca. This woman and her warriors scared the be-jesus out of those who opposed her.
    I’m feeling rather Celtic these days. I take their Haka and I raise a Budika. We win. Hillary to the White House.

    And then there’s always the fact that she was Queen of the Seneca and there’s Seneca Falls, right?

    And another observation: we seem like water– languid in repose, still and contemplative, but powerful and never ending in motion. Whereas the Obamaphiles seem like the fire element, always needing fuel to keep going, always screaming about something.

    As we know, water puts out fire.

  132. Hi Pat,

    I’m here right now reading posts, but I have to babysit all afternoon for my two little nephews (they help me keep hope alive!). I’ll be home around 7 tonight.

    It’s so inspiring to read all your comments. Welcome to all the new commenters and to any lurkers who haven’t spoken up yet. Our traffic has been growing steadly for awhile and in the past week or so it has increased expoentially. There really are millions of people like us. We just have to find ways to reach them. Riverdaughter is a true leader. If we all work together, we can find a way to make a difference!

  133. RD, I adore you! I’ve been cryin on and off for two days.

    By the way, when do we order the PUMA T-Shirts?

  134. Hi Bill!

    I have a question for you. Does Axelrod pay you guys by the hour or by the number of posts? If the latter, do you still get credit if the comment is deleted?

    Do you guys have a script you work from or are you allowed to be creative?

    Do you work from home or do they have you all crammed into cubicles somewhere?

    Inquiring minds want to know.

  135. McCain can’t nominate some lunatic judges unless Dems in DC help him. Please don’t use the scare tactic. it ain’t working….I don’t care the SOTUS stuff anymore.

  136. I’m psychic: Bill’s next comment will be something about let’s see——

    Roe vs. Wade.

    Am I right Bill?

  137. Hear, hear BB!

    And that last line has me very excited for our future together, as Conflucians/PUMAs.

  138. Litigatormom:

    I feel the same way as you. I always said I would vote for Obama if Hillary lost, but I am so angry about how things turned out for Hillary, I am seriously considering not voting for POTUS. I will not vote for McCain, but I live in a very blue state that Obama will certainly win, so I can sit out the POTUS vote or write in a vote for Hillary.

    I do not believe that Hillary would even consider running as McCain’s VP (or as an independent), and I am suprised to hear so many people suggest it. She is a lifelong democrat , and is on opposite side of so many issues as McCain (e.g, she is pro choice and thanks to her, the morning after pill, Plan B, is now available over the counter).

    I am happy to have found this site, and thanks to those who are welcoming us Hillary supporters.


    Litigatormom, do you comment at firedoglake? I recall your name from the libby trial coverage. I stopped going there because it became so anti Hillary. That suprised me because Jane and ReddHed talk like they are feminists, but they seemed to allow all the anti Hillary venom on a regular basis.

  139. And I predict my next post will be something like:

    Should’ve thought of that before you picked the guy that can’t win with the coalition he’s got. Tough shit.

  140. Puma is an athletic brand where you can buy all kinds of mechandise from T-shirts to shoes.

    Here’s the link: http://www.puma.com/

    Let’s send their business skyrocketing.

  141. Count me in as a new Puma member.

    And thank you Riverdaughter, for providing a new home to us lost souls.

  142. jd: “McCain can’t nominate some lunatic judges unless Dems in DC help him.”

    Judging the ones we’ve seen in action, thus far, stranger–more foolish–things have happened.

  143. Put on your PUMA sneakers, PUMA workout suits, PUMA hats, PUMA t-shirts.

    Welcome to all new readers!

  144. Why do the Obama people always have to follow us? I don’t understand it. The majority of the blogs on the internet are for them, why come here?

  145. Welcome to The Confluence. .. You are not alone. You are not crazy. You aren’t a racist. Or immature.

    Gosh, that was nice to read, I hope you will leave it on top at least all this week . Kind of like those rock piles that tell passersby that a person of peace lives here.

    It is so hard to believe that people really do, do things “to make you feel helpless and hopeless.” in order to suppress your vote.

  146. Michelle in Philly, because the Dem enablers have shown them they can.

  147. “I do not believe that Hillary would even consider running as McCain’s VP (or as an independent), and I am suprised to hear so many people suggest it. She is a lifelong democrat ”

    Hillary is a die-hard Democrat (with a capital “D” ). She’ll will remain loyal to those priniciples. Suggesting a McCain ticket only attempts to suggest that Hillary isn’t who we’ve known her to be all this time. That’s a tale best left to those who screwed up this election, with the recent “coronation”. Me, I know Hillary will work in the interest of party support and loyalty. Despite the fact most of them deserve anything but.

  148. I can not believe it! Dean is keeping his job. Wow. Obama is already a failure.

  149. The Supreme Court already has a conservative majority.

  150. Hillary is welcome to work for the party. I’ll work on rebuilding it around her. Fine with me.

  151. Michelle: It’s simple. Despite all their infective, divisive blathering, they know they won’t win without us. All while putting on the front they couldn’t care less. Either way, I’m unfazed and motivated towards “unity” of any kind.

  152. Melanie, are you really that surprise. It’s all too familiar — Bush redux.

  153. michelle in philly – the Obamabots follow us because they’re sadistic – the internet draws the ones who use its anonymity to bully. Honestly, there’s ONLY about a handful of them at Taylor Marsh, and we allowed that to overrun us. We are the majority, and instead of ignoring them, many of the Marshans engaged them and it drove the rest away.

    Even now, if we went back to TM and if the Hillary supporters and ignored them, they would likely go away. They are interested in attention. We outnumber them. It was a big mistake for us to let them get their way.

  154. But what would be the point of staying at TM now? She’s gone “anti-McCain” on us. There’d be no real purpose that I can see. We’d be in constant conflict with her and that’s not fair to anybody.

  155. Ann On @ 1:34pm:

    Just because Murdoch wants Obama to win doesn’t mean that the advice he’s giving him is any good. Obama won’t win all of Clinton’s supporters, but he can win some of them back — female Democratic voters have traditionally been very party-loyal, and even in the context of this year’s series of outrages, some will wind up voting for Obama, even if they are holding their noses when they do it. I personally can’t vote for McCain, so it’s just a question of abstaining or writing in for me.

    But back to my point. If Murdoch is telling Obama that he can afford to ignore up to 18mm angry Democratic voters, I have to wonder if Murdoch really wants Obama to win.

  156. Riverdaughter: Thank you for being our wonderful place of refuge away from the “uglyboyz”! I’ve been a lurker here since Feb.
    As a lifelong Dem (voted first time for JFK), I just can not vote for Obama in Nov!

  157. Unfortunately, we’re not 18 million strong.

    I just got off the phone with a dear friend, and Hillary voter, who was flabbergasted that I’m not automatically transferring my vote to Obama if he’s the nominee.

    I got pretty emotional, not sour grapes, or being a poor loser, but because just articulating my thoughts and feelings about the atrocious actions of the DNC to such a good friend who hasn’t done the research and is automatically giving her vote to Obama (if…) really drove home for me how alienated I feel from my Party, and how betrayed and deceived I feel–and know by the data that I am. For God’s sake, I read the DNC bylaws; this has been an agonizing and painful process.

    I told her that since the Party leaders/elders did not stand up against race baiting and misogyny, and since the DNC gave actual Clinton delegates to Obama, that our Party has violated all principles that I assumed it held and represented.

    Since my assumptions about what it means to be a Democrat and vote the Party ticket have all been proven wrong, I can not make an assumptive Democratic vote in November. I will be examining all candidates and their records before I make a decision whether or not to withhold my vote or to vote for McCain.

    It’s the only thing this self-respecting voter can do.

  158. “motivated towards “unity” of any kind.”

    That should read: “unity of ANOTHER kind”

  159. BB: I have been here a few weeks now and I don’t feel like I have to post at all anymore, just reading and seeing names I have never seen before. I feel like Steve Carrell in “The Office”, I read and think “Yeah, what she said”

  160. I am 73 and have been a loyal Democrat for 50 of those years so perhaps my view of the health of the Democratic Party going forward is different than some. I do not view Barak Obama as a Democrat but as a Republican who has adopted a few hot button Democratic positions that he considers essential to getting elected. For the long term health of the Democratic Party Obama must be defeated. If the result is President McCain then we can live with that for a few years while we clean our own house. I do not think that McCain is truly an extension of Cheney/Bush and his excesses can be held in check by a strong Senate majority. Think 2012.

  161. You’re right about the sadistic part epicurious, they are some nasty people.

    I can not and will not ever vote for Obama, not sure what I will do come Nov , sit home or vote for McCain,

  162. <ATTENTION:

    If you can CALL Talk of the Nation 1800 989 8255

    they have someone from Emily’s list for the Dems and someone from the Reps.

    The subject is what can either do to get Clinton voters: Neil Coan (sp?) and the woman from Emily’s don’t get it (they keep on talking about how close Clinton and Obama re and teh gulf b/c McCain and Dems.)

    We will be voting AGAINST Obama and THIS DNC b/c …… (say what you think) and if you PLEASE can debunk the SCOTUS argument ( Pres. nominates; SENATE CONFIRMS)

  163. mec @ 2:09:

    I used to post at FDL but like you was driven away by the anti-Hillary crap. I was surprised because I thought the FDL gals were tough enough to insist on decorum and respect for Hillary supporters even if they personally favored Obama (a la BTD at TalkLeft), but sadly no.

    But I can see myself going back there some time in the distant future. Daily Kos, however, is dead to me.

  164. That is NOW for another 30 minutes

  165. “a shrieking band of paranoid holdouts” …

    LMAO… this, from the blogger who pushed the demonstrably false “hillary’s ad darkened obama’s skin color” story, and never apologized after it was debunked.

    i HOPE he did it out of paranoia, rather than cynically promoting propaganda given him by the obama campaign that he knew was false. paranoid would be an improvement over that.

  166. I have been here a few weeks now and I don’t feel like I have to post at all anymore, just reading and seeing names I have never seen before. I feel like Steve Carrell in “The Office”, I read and think “Yeah, what she said”

    Kim, I feel the same way. Great, isn’t it?

  167. Lambert so speaks: “the problem for me, since they’ve abandoned the media critique…”

    Yes. Exactly. There is no media critique and it’s one of the single biggest problems to confront. It’s at the heart of the fight for universal health care, fair elections, sane political conversation. This has become a litmus test for me as to the integrity of information.

    RD, thank you for the Frost reference. God, I love that poem. I’m pretty stoic… simply because I’ve got nowhere else to go. Plus, I just like it better here.

  168. pm317, on June 5th, 2008 at 1:51 pm Said:
    I posted this Anglachel as well but the more I think about it, the more sense it makes. Clinton is making a strategic move here. Putting her campaign in cold storage (by not releasing her delegates, hopefully), she is taking herself out of the picture for now so the much avoided vetting of Obama can begin. Let us see where it will take us. But come August, if we see that he is in worse shape than now, we the 18 million should raise our collective voice one more time to put the stronger candidate on the November ballot. I am willing to bet, a lot more millions will join us in that effort then.

    pm317 I totally agree with you. I have been saying for some time that that is what she is doing…being very politically correct, “supporting Obama,” being a good Democrat, “suspending” her campaign then just waiting for the inevitable to happen: Obama implodes over the next two months and even the kool-aid drinkers (well, not all) will finally see they have an unelectable candidate on their hands.

  169. It is incredible to see this new movement coming together. Riverdaughter. Thank you. Whatever help you need, just say the word. This is so important to not let the Democrats get away with stealing the nomination from the best, smartest and hardest working candidate we will see in our lifetime. It is beyond tragic and we cannot let it stand without a fight.

  170. Thanks so much for hosting a site where the voice of reason prevails. I love P.U.M.A.
    I read about the haka- my ancestors used bagpipes to accomplish much the same thing. Very very eerie to hear the pipes in the mist and the Bodrahn and not know how many we were waiting to fall upon the enemy.

  171. I want to share this comment from the great Paul Lukasiak, which he made over at Talk Left:

    Obama had a two-week winning streak followed by three months of extremely serious losses in key swing states — and devastatingly bad margins in places like Kentucky and Puerto Rico. Yet, throughout this series of losses, SDs continued to flock to Obama — this tells me that the corruption of the party leadership is so endemic that trying to “fix” it from within is pointless. Sometimes a building is so structurally damaged that it must be torn down and rebuilt — and the Democratic Party has shown that it needs a wrecking ball, and that the efforts of good people to fix the party will only be used to further empower the corruption of the party itself.

    This says it all. Thank you, Paul.

  172. Can someone answer a question for me please:

    I’m confused. Last night on the news I heard that Hillary was suspending her campaign on Saturday. Currently, all I read about is her endorsing Obama and nothing about suspending. Has she changed her mind and is she giving up her delegates?

  173. The bottom line for me is pragmatic and not emotional. Obama is unqualified. I don’t trust him to represent my interests. I cannot vote for him under any circumstances.

  174. Welcome, new people! It’s great to see you.


  175. Tim @ 2:31 said:

    I do not think that McCain is truly an extension of Cheney/Bush and his excesses can be held in check by a strong Senate majority. Think 2012.

    I think you are wrong about at least the first part of that sentence. McCain IS an extension — and in some cases, and exacerbation — of Cheney/Bush. He claims to believe in global warming, and he claims (even less convincingly) to oppose torture. Beyond that, he’s Cheney/Bush all the way; he just claims to be smarter than Cheney/Bush about how to engage in unnecessary wars.

    Don’t vote for Obama if you’re conscience tells you not to. I’m not going to vote for him. But if you are going to vote for McCain, or not vote in a state where not voting might turn the state red, understand that McCain is no moderate, and he’s likewise not an independent or a “post-partisan.” He’s just another old political hack who happens to get unusually good press by our supine press corpse.

    The second part of your statement is key: assuming a President McCain, can a strong Democratic majority in the House and Senate keep him in check? Maybe, although it would have to be a pretty significant majority in order for the weak-kneed Democratic caucus to actually stand up to him. Here’s where Hillary as Senate Majority Leader would make a real difference. But apparently, that is unlikely, since her “friends” in the Senate are angry at her for not letting the Princeling enjoy his victory yet.

    And even if you assume that a strong Democratic majority stands up to McCain on the really important issues — judicial appointments, bomb bomb bomb Iran — remember that the power of keeping things from happening is not the same thing as the power to make things happen.

    Now, if you fear that an Obama presidency isn’t really going to be that much more liberal than a McCain presidency, then everything I’ve said above isn’t very relevant to you. I, on the other hand, think that Obama is more progressive than McCain (though not as progressive as Hillary). My big problem with him as president at this point is that I just don’t think he has “the stuff” — the readiness, the temperament — and I think he’s stunningly hypocritical about the “New Politics” while practicing the most shameless brand of the Old Politics.

    Anyway, just a reminder that McCain ain’t Obama, but he’s not a moderate in any way, shape or form.

  176. Oddly enough the DNC isn’t asking me for money anymore. I think they got the message when I would no longer devote any time to answer their emails, I’d just say “No” and send it back.

  177. Yes, Edwardian, it is wonderful, I believe if there are this many finding this site, me included, there have to be millions of us.

  178. McCain is a Republican. We all understand that and that is why many of us will abstain. Please do not understestimate our understanding of the situation. That is what got us here, the Democrats doing that very thing.

    Secondly, as far as we know, Hillary is only suspending her campaign. Of course the narrative will be that she endorses Obama, but political implications are clear: my pledged delegates are mine and if/when he implodes, I’m up to bat.

    So yes, she’s endorsing but it’s very likely she is only suspending. We know which part the MSM care about. Please stop listening to them.

  179. HeatherinFlorida–Thanks for publishing that list. It is important people here understand that a write-in vote for Hillary will not be counted unless papers have been filed, fees have been paid, and the necessary number of signatures obtained (and not challenged) to place Hillary on the ballot. In other words, DO NOT WRITE IN HILLARY if you want to defeat the DNC and Obama–because your vote will simply be tossed out.

    A vote for McCain means Obama needs two votes to win. If you decide not to fill out the top of the ticket, McCain will need two votes to beat DNC/Obama. A vote for a third party candidate is equivalent to not filling out the top of the ticket, and McCain will still need two votes to beat DNC/Obama.

    The question is: How badly do you want to stop the takeover of the Democratic party?

  180. Hello, newbie here, refugee from TM.

    I often read the great posts here, however.

    Hillary supporter looking for a safe place to comment, learn.

  181. Forget any talk of Clinton and McCain being on the same ticket. Not only would this hurt the Democratic Party, but the Republicans would NEVER hear of such a thing.

    As for me, I live in Nevada where voters have the (non-binding) alternative of voting for “none of these candidates.” That is going to be my choice this election.

  182. Obama is now referring to “my party” not our party. The coup is complete.

  183. He can have his party. Sadly, it will not be the party in the White House.

  184. Hello to all our new posters! As new members please note that I snack all day when I am stressed. I resolved that problem today when food shopping; bought packs of chewing gum in order to have large quantities of spit available when the attacks start to reign down. This will guarantee against a weight gain but will be easier to clean off my screen after a good spittle that no longer contains food!

  185. Lieberman endorsed McCain and Obama is mad.


  186. Very happy to have found this site! I, like many others here will never vote for Obama. Unfortunately, since I live in NY, there’s nothing I can do to affect the outlook for my state, as it always votes Democratic.

    But at least I won’t help to pump up Junior’s totals.


  187. Liebahman hurts zee Bawmbam.

    Ah well. We really don’t want Hillary pulling a Lieberman, cuz god knows everybody hates that guy.

  188. If McCain chooses Lieberman as VP I promise to bash my head into a wall.

  189. GAWL, the thing that makes me the angriest about this primary is that I agree with ANN FREAKING COULTER sometimes.

    EWWWWW, I need to go wash.

    (and btw: the gist of her article is the DNC was so concerned with the popular vote in 2000, where’s the outrage now?)

  190. Lieberman doomed Gore and now he’ll doom the Republicans. Great. We had a good choice, now we have two bad ones. Thanks, Jesus, you really came through for us.

  191. “But I can see myself going back there some time in the distant future. Daily Kos, however, is dead to me.”

    Today, they are making fun of the color of McCain’s teeth. You are not missing anything.

  192. Pat: If you’re anything like me, a good share of your derision toward Lieberman is fueled by Kossian hatred. The reality is many of the folks that the Kossians love are at least as bad as Lieberman if not worse.

    Give the guy another look.

  193. Ryan: I hope they’re proud of their wonderful classiness.

  194. It actually made me feel a little ill to watch Obama pull Lieberman by the hand off the senate floor. His party. His senate. Uhh.

  195. Did somebody open the filters today?

  196. That’s hardly news. Lieberman has always endorsed McCain.

    I will never forgive the nutroots for running him out of the party during the Lamont debacle.

  197. Another lifelong dem and active campaigner for Kerry wjo will not vote for Obama unless HRC is on the ticket. This primary was rigged and there is nothing about Obama that inspires me. Not that adding HRC will change my opoinion of him….but I couldn’t vote against HER. I’ll even campaign.

  198. mec, on June 5th, 2008 at 2:09 pm Said:


    I feel the same way as you. I always said I would vote for Obama if Hillary lost, but I am so angry about how things turned out for Hillary, I am seriously considering not voting for POTUS. I will not vote for McCain, but I live in a very blue state that Obama will certainly win, so I can sit out the POTUS vote or write in a vote for Hillary.
    I thought about this a lot too. I also live in a Blue state that I can afford to not vote. But that would mean undue burden on our friends in swing states to record our protest. I want to show my solidarity in this movement and vote for McCain in protest for what has happened with the Dem party.

  199. “Ryan: I hope they’re proud of their wonderful classiness.”

    What I do not get is how they make offensive prediction after prediction about HRC, all of which turn out to be wrong, then expect to have any credibility with HRC supporters. I think many of them really think that screaming Roe vs Wade for the bajillionth time is finally going to have an effect. It is unbelievable.

    (insert random McCain position) Boogaabooogaaaboooogaaa! Obama ’08! *sigh*

  200. I will support Hillary no matter what. I am hoping she tells them that she will not consider VP for a myriad of reasons. However, if that is her intent I know she is making her decision based on something solid. I will vote for him/Hillary. Just hoping she doesn’t. She is much too good for that lying piece of trash.

  201. Lieberman endorsed McCain? Dear God, I might have to vote for Obama after all!

    Kidding people, kidding …

    For months, we all wondered what African-Americans and young voters might do if superdelegates trumped them. Now we — and Obama — get to ask the same thing about white women.

    I note the above only to point out that the PUMA Rubicon was crossed months ago by Obama’s supporters.

    And to those of you begging us to think of the children, and the Constitution, and so forth, and to “choose wisely.” We did think. We chose wisely. You didn’t. And now the chips fall where they may.

  202. Hello everyone

    I bring a gift of a new video made for Hillary……..

    “I’ll Be Waiting for You”

    Bring hanky with ya.

  203. Wow, Boohall thanks for sharing. Loved that video. so true.

  204. Damn I can’t take much more crying.

  205. Liebertoad endorsed McCain months ago. Obama is mad because now Liebertoad is attacking Obama personally about Israel (and already, HRC is defending Obama on Israel — no good deed goes unpunished).

    As far as I am concerned, Obama and Liebertoad deserve each other. Perhaps if Obama had supported Ned Lamont more strongly — as Hillary did — he’d be the Senator from CT now instead of Liebertoad.

    As to my post above on McCain: I don’t mean to lecture people on the real McCain. I was reacting to an earlier post that said that McCain isn’t really an extension of Cheney/Bush. I think he is, or worse. That may not be a good enough reason to vote for Obama (and as I said, I’m not going to myself). But I really just wanted to dispel the notion that McCain isn’t that bad. He is that bad. It all comes down to whether you think Obama is worse. On that, reasonable people may differ. All I know is that I won’t vote for either of them.

  206. FreakyBeaky, on June 5th, 2008 at 4:10 pm Said:

    The jury is still out on your wisdom, that is if you have any. We’ll wait for the October surprise. Oh, wait! It may actually come sooner.

  207. litigatormom,

    I like Lieberman. I think the nutty brown-shirts of DKOS and MoveOn decided he had to go, so they forced Ned Lamont on everyone during the Primary. The people were really with Lieberman, though, so Lamont got denied.

    TO me, it is very similar to what they did to HRC with BO. BO won in the Primary with the new Left’s money, but He will be stopped by the Average voter come Nov.

  208. Kim, pass the friggin Kleenex please. I cannot take one more video like this. My heart is breaking.

  209. pm317,

    I would like to respond, but I am completely unable to parse your comment. Would you care to try again?

  210. I just sent it to the toad I was dating, that begged me to vote Obama now since Hillary has SUSPENDED (no not quit SUSPENDED)).

    Like I said I am now single again.

  211. “Pat Johnson, on June 5th, 2008 at 3:43 pm Said:

    Did somebody open the filters today?”
    I left 2 comments at dailykos this am.

    I still read eco diaries there – it tends to be a different bunch – not siegheiling in unison constantly – and since we will have 4 more yrs of R rule, I need to attempt to move people to clean energy on naked greed now, since legislatively its now a dead loss….

    …anyway, I decided to leave a little sympathy for fellow sufferers including names of non borg blogs.

  212. I want to protest by writing in Hillary Rodham Clinton on the November ballot. The requirements for my State are still being researched. It appears that in some States Senator Clinton has to authorize write-ins so I e-mailed her today to ask her to do this wherever it’s required. If she does so, it will be used against her but what isn’t.

    It’s difficult to know which way to jump but I will not vote for BO, Senator McCain, or any down-ticket Democrat.

    If 20% of Clinton supporters do not vote for BO, reportedly he will lose. Let’s make it happen so if the big boyz can’t hear us now, they will in early November.

  213. EricaLeigh: Trust me, we exceed 18million. I know Republicans who were looking forward to voting for her this fall. I called and canvassed lots of them in PA. There are a lot more people than you think who are completely disgusted by the way this primary season has gone and they are not voting for Obama.

  214. #
    FreakyBeaky, on June 5th, 2008 at 4:38 pm Said:


    I would like to respond, but I am completely unable to parse your comment. Would you care to try again?

    Ok, don’t want to clog the board here but my comment assumed you’re an Obama supporter here to gloat. If you’re not my apologies.

  215. I’m so glad I’ve found this site–it’s doing a tremendous public service. It’s been clear to me that I wasn’t alone in my undying, unyielding support for Hillary (and I don’t mean the voices in my head. Ha, ha). I can’t tell you how many Hillary signs are still up in my neighborhood 3 months after the primary. Car after car on the way to work bear Hillary stickers. There are lots of us out there just seething over what is happening to OUR party.

    I’ve had to turn off the t.v. and stop talking with most of my friends and family (all Obama supporters can you believe that) because I’m sick of hearing how Hillary supposedly lost. When something is stolen from you it isn’t “lost,” it’s stolen. Even if the rules say you lost, how can you credit that when the game was rigged?

    I’m tired of the p.c. police refusing to let us acknowledge what we know happened–the nomination was given to Obama. Why? Was it out of guilt or out of ingorance or out of apathy? I don’t know and I don’t care. What we must demand is a fair nomination fight. I could have accepted Obama if he legitimately won the nomination according to the rules and if he had run a clean campaign. But when the rules magically shift to accomodate his needs and to Hillary’s detriment and he uses his race to get votes, I cannot and will not accept the alleged result. It is heartbreaking to see the superior candidate pushed to the back of the line to help the inferior candidate.

    I may not be young (I won’t say I’m old though!), I may not be rich, and I may not be overly educated, but even a blind dog knows when she’s been kicked and Howard Dean and the D-N-C have surely kicked me. This blind dog has no intention of hiding in a corner though. I intend to sink my teeth into the D-N-C’s backside until they give Hillary a fair shot!

    By the way, Hillary still needs money, so as long as we’re able and her website is up, we should contribute. (As you know, Obama’s financial advantage prejudiced Hillary’s ability to get her message out.) Every little bit helps and who knows, maybe the continued financial support will convince her not to suspend her campaign.

  216. I’m so thankful, I found this website! I have never been soooo involved in an election EVER, and I must say, I’ve never been so disapointed as I have been with this one.
    I too believe the press, the media, the pundits, the so called journalist have slanted this process, from the beginning. They attacked Hillary, because they could!!
    They gave Obama a pass because they didn’t know ANYTHING about him other than that speech he made back in 2004. It was a cheap and sleazy way to go, but when the DNC didn’t stand up for her, and gave Oba. 4 of her delegates, that was the last straw. Yes I know, stay focused!!
    I’ll never vote for Oba. NEVER NEVER!! I’ll send Hillary another contribution though , because I agree that I don’t want her depending on him for anything.
    Thanks for letting me vent…

  217. Sandy, sweetie,

    You’ve been on here on all afternoon spouting this tripe.

    First, we like who we are.

    Second, none of your “bubble” is going to sway us.

    Third, if you are being paid by the post by the big Zero campaign, do you still get paid if they are in the filter?

    Finally, given your lack of noun/verb agreement, I doubt you had a vote in the primary or will have one in the general election.

    Give us a break and lay off.

  218. Oh, they finally paid someone who could use big words and couch the Obama points in more elitist language.

    I’m so impressed with your vocabulary but not so much with your opining.

    I really like this statement from you,”bush only speaks in front of those who love him (with increasingly smaller audiences) .”

    Goodness this sounds almost like Obama in the last month or two as he started losing steam. Never liked town halls where he actually had to answer questions. Only liked rallies where he could spout his boring rhetoric to his masses.

  219. Tammy, Welcome!

  220. Like some others here, I am transitioning from Taylor Marsh’s site – my blog home for the past six months. It pains me to leave but Taylor’s shift from Hillary to Obama, plus the influx of Obamabots has made it difficult to remain. I will occasionally visit there, but “the thrill is gone.”

    I’m checking out some other havens and hope to decide soon on a new blog “home”. I greatly appreciate what I’ve read here so far. Riverdaughter, your Note to New Readers” definitely resonates. Thank you! To my fellow former Marshans, great to see you!

  221. I want to share something with y’all – I have a full time job but also work part time as a realtor. We constantly have to take continuing education courses to keep our real estate licenses current. Some agents space out their classes but I procrastinated and ended up taking most of this week off my main job to get all my credits. my class this morning was on fair housing. I live in Birmingham, Alabama so it’s a real important issue here (it is anywhere but we have a reputation to live down). The class was about divided equally between black and white agents and the discussion was outstanding – I’ve only lived in Alabama for a few years but I’ve been impressed by how openly people can discuss racial issues, both past and present.

    Anyway, the instructor likes to use examples from both his real estate career and from current events. We were discussing the importance of words and “dismissive speech”, saying things that make people feel like they aren’t important. He said he had a good example from current events and……….I thought it would be a racial issue but it was actually a sexist issue…….

    the example was “sweetie”!!! Obama’s dismissive speech to a female reporter. He said if any of us had acted like that as a realtor, our license would be on the line. I got no feel at all for what his politics might be, he just said it was shocking that a politician, particularly one wanting to be president, would use that kind of speech.


  222. “Michelle in Philly, on June 5th, 2008 at 2:16 pm Said:
    Why do the Obama people always have to follow us? I don’t understand it. The majority of the blogs on the internet are for them, why come here?

    Because they are the BORG. They will never be satisfied until they have assimilated every remaining Democrat into the Obama Hive and eliminated pesky free thinking.

  223. “Cate, on June 5th, 2008 at 11:52 am Said:
    “Brownshirts for Obama”…LOL! Did you make that up Joe? It sounds good to me.

    Not entirely. The Obamabots have been referred to by others as Brownshirts for their despicable behavior. I just thought that it was obvious that they would be for the Precious, so I came up with that label.

  224. Thank you, Riverdaughter, and hello, former Marshans, especially the eloquent LAMusing, who recommended this blog.

    Glad to be among you all.

  225. Another new reader, another refugee from Taylor Marsh. It’s sad what has happened to that site. Thanks for the warm welcome here. I love what I see, and hope to be a regular.

    I had the supreme pleasure of returning a survey to the DNC today telling them they are rotten to the core, and no, I will not give them my money. Or my vote.

    The Steve Corbett link was wonderful, IndigoGrrl. He speaks for a lot of us, and eloquently so. An Obama campaign official said that the “presumptive nominee” is not going to expend much effort courting Hillary’s supporters. Apparently Obama, like so many of the MSM pundits, believes those hysterical Clinton women will forget their anger, get nervous about Roe, and come to Barry in November.

    We shall see.

  226. Ok, don’t want to clog the board here but my comment assumed you’re an Obama supporter here to gloat. If you’re not my apologies.

    Um, no. Not an Obama supporter. Accepted. 🙂

  227. Remember when a bunch of people protested the sorry state of our democracy by voting for Ralph Nader? Which helped elect George Bush, who subsequently pooped our country down the toilet?

    This will be like that.

    What matters is the immediate, right-now future of our country. If McCain’s values reflect what you’d like that to look like, then you should vote for him. But if you voted for Clinton to being with, then I can’t imagine that they do.

    I mean, right?

    And I’m not trying to throw salt in anyone’s wounds. Hillary would have made a fine president. But, good lord, I don’t want another Republican administration. Please.

  228. Hey Larry,

    If you don’t want another Republican admin, then start working to get Hillary elected! Because even if we pissed off Hillary supporters turned to the big Zero, he’d still have a difficult time winning.

    Most people don’t see the Dems as any better than the Reps or any worse. Our Dem congress has a horrible approval rating, right down there with Bush’s. Yea, people hate Bush, but McCain isn’t Bush. I personally am not keen on the guy, but reading about his service in ‘Nam made me cry.

  229. Thnx for creating this welcoming enviroment to newly independent voters! Thnaks to Dean for making it easy to be independent!

  230. I agree. Hillary was by far the better candidate on the left.

  231. dear prolix: just some clarifications to some of your previous message:

    you said
    “You’ve been on here on all afternoon spouting this tripe.”
    in fact, i had written two messages

    you said:
    “First, we like who we are.”
    I like who you are as well, despite what you may think about the questions
    and observations in my two messages: i admittedly liked you less when my messages were purged from site, but i still respect your opinions.

    you said:
    “Second, none of your “bubble” is going to sway us.”
    i don’t think that discussion is based on the desire to change beliefs:
    it’s an exchange of views to make each other aware of alternative

    you said:
    “Third, if you are being paid by the post by the big Zero campaign, do you still get paid if they are in the filter?”
    i’m not paid by anyone – i simply thought that given the uniformity of beliefs expressed on the site that there might be some usefulness in expressing
    an alternative opinion. i admit i was wrong.

    you said:
    “Finally, given your lack of noun/verb agreement, I doubt you had a vote in the primary or will have one in the general election.”
    i’m actually a theoretical linguist who studies cross-linguistic noun/verb agreement systems, so if there was a mistake in my message, it was an accident. i’ve voted in every primary and election since i was able to vote:
    that’s 50 years.


  232. Love this site — are there PUMA T-shirts that we can wear and make a statement wherever we go?

  233. At long last… an almost obamaton-free site. Hillary 08!

  234. I’m so glad I found you and I have so much to say.

    “they done her wrong” to the music of “Frankie and Johnny Were Sweethearts” keeps going through my head.

    In the last two days I’ve found out HOW they got her out. and I want everyone to know.

    Also I
    1) wont be voting for anyone on the dem down line
    2)will be calling the Super Delegates and letting them know I will be working against having them re-elected
    3) will write in Hillary for President
    4) wil send a check to her Chappaqua, NY home so there wont be any confusion about where money is going on a website

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