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Florida

It’s easy to do the right thing and be on the correct side of the issue in this case even if you don’t stand to gain anything from it. The punishment was unusually harsh, the voters had nothing to do with it and the Democrats really need them in November. But more than that, it’s just a good thing to count every vote, let Floridians have some weight in determining the nomination and to respect their intentions, which were fairly clear. If it turns out that Florida’s votes when added to the mix do not sway superdelegates to vote for Clinton, well, at least they tried. But if they are never counted at all and Obama wins, then Floridians will be left with a mystery. Could counting all of their votes have lead to a different outcome? Deja vu. Not a good feeling when you thought you’d been pre-disastered. What’s worse is that it is at the hands of the “good” party this time. Who can you trust?

Obama made a decision a couple of months ago to not waive the rules and to obstruct revotes. Florida Democrats filed a petition to get at least half the delegation seated. A couple of months ago would have been an optimal time to settle the matter. Obama could have been magnanimous and agreed to seat all of the delegates and take a small hit to his delegate count. Or he could have taken the Florida Democrat’s compromise of half delegate seating. He chose not to do either. Now, I don’t think any solution he proposed short of seating all of them would be acceptable to Floridians.

For a guy with self-proclaimed good judgment, he has boxed himself into a corner. With his lead in the delegate count, he comes off looking petulant. If he’s the presumptive nominee, if he can not lose under any circumstances, where’s the harm of seating all of the delegates? What is he holding out for? Surely he needs to smooth the waters with the voters of this state so the holding pattern is inscrutable. He could be afraid the delegates lend legitimacy to Clinton’s popular vote and he may lose. But the longer he holds out the greater the possibility that he will permanently alienate the voters of Florida. And it won’t look good for him no matter what the Rules and Bylaws committee decides. If he prevails, there goes Florida. If Clinton prevails, Obama doesn’t score any points with them either. If it’s a split decision, Floridians may resent having to still endure a punishment they didn’t deserve when one of the candidates had the power to prevail over the committee and waive the rules.

A leader would just agree to seat them. A man who is confident of winning would just take the hit and make peace. So, are we to conclude that he is not a leader or not confident of winning? Or both? And what is that saying to the superdelegates?

223 Responses

  1. “What’s worse is that it is at the hands of the “good” party this time.” — Yes, far worse.

    “So, are we to conclude that he is not a leader or not confident of winning?” — They both seem like logical conclusions to me.

  2. Ooh come on Sweetie.

    You Clintonistas are unable to take Yes for an answer. The Chosen One say he would allow FL to count “In a way that doesn’t change the outcome”.

    How come you’re not ecstatic about that? Are you low class, old white women, always bellyaching?

    Sheesh!

  3. I’m sick of the OFB crying about “teh rulz” and saying Hillary agreed to disenfranchise two states.

    Who cares? The decision was wrong. If Hillary was in favor of it, she was wrong too.

    If she’s only doing this because it’s to her advantage now, well then she’s still doing the right thing, even if it’s for the wrong reasons.

    Beyond right and wrong, it’s politically stupid too.

  4. I think he is dragging his feet because he can.

    The media is helping him by having talking heads say that he doesn’t have to worry about pissed off Hillary supporters and FL/MI voters because they will stick with the party in November.

    Why would anyone give up an ‘advantage’ if they don’t have to?

    I think he is wrong, but I am also a little afraid that he might be right. Will everyone just get in line in November?

  5. JJMT: Not everyone

  6. The recent noises from the Obama camp have been an eye towards either seating half the delegates or giving them all half-votes. But within the past few days, Clinton’s position has ramped up to an all-or-nothing delegation request. Whatever the solution is will likely be in the middle of those two numbers — still a more advantageous split for Clinton than going back to a full 50/50 divide that a lot of Obama supporters would prefer.

    A month ago, Obama was not as close to the nomination as he is now. The punishment decision was made by the Party, not by the candidates, and neither of them have shown interest in changing that decision until the race got so close that a single state could make a difference. And now… I wouldn’t say it’s leadership that would have Obama seating the Florida delegation per the unsanctioned primary, because he’s not in the clear yet. For him to essentially give the Florida primary results his blessing would be a gamble.

    I don’t think Obama is totally confident that he’s going to win. I think he’s optimistic and can’t see the numbers collapsing for him, but he is also not in a position to take any hits. If he would hit the threshold of 2026 (or whatever it is these days) with the delegation from Florida, then he’d probably let it happen and take the hit because he’d be the nominee. But it would be politically nutty to do so now, when Clinton is still arguing her case.

  7. myiq: I was hoping you would say that!

  8. What this clearly says is that the DNC is not doing its job. They, not Hillary or Obama, need to take the lead and back off the original position, particularly Florida. It was the GOP lead state leaders who controlled the outcome by insisting on a fixed date. Obama ran ads. Hillary won. That says something in itself. But withholding the votes when this was a Repug decision is infinitely wrong.

    I just saw where a black commentator named Michele Bernhard on Chris Matthews Show proclaimed “rioting in the streets” if he is denied the nomination. This is what the DNC has wrought. A sleazy campaign by Obama and a toothless DNC is forecasting dire defections if this is allowed to continue.

  9. Ella: if I understand it, with the acceptance of FL, the threshold moves to a higher number. I haven’t done the math, but it might even move him away from the ‘over half the delegates’ victory lap – already taken.

  10. I’m growing increasingly resigned that the superdelegates will throw the election, effectively validating the stealing of the nomination from Clinton, no matter what happens May 31. The only silver lining: they will be exposed, horribly so, starting in September.

    I believe Obama is fighting tooth and nail on MI/FL out of pure spite. I honestly feel he sees Clinton as some sort of perverted symbol for his white, feminist mother. Hence, the deranged hatred for her. He just can’t beat her; he has to punish her–destroy and humiliate her.

  11. It’s very simple from Obama’s point of view. Florida voters will “come around,” just like the women, and the working class, and the elderly, and the gays, and the other disrespected groups. And if we don’t all come around? Easy. We’re racists. Because we should be grateful for the opportunity to vote for The One.

    Puke.

    Sorry, I’m just sick of the arrogance, and the sweetie lectures don’t help.

  12. I wonder if Obama doesn’t care if he loses the GE and long as he beats Clinton. He doesn’t have the same intensity when taking on McCain as he does with Clinton. When he looks at her it’s just pure contempt.

  13. Hi Pat – I think the ‘letter of the rulz’ here is that FL is sanctioned with half delegates and for advertizing and talking to the press, obama would get zip!

    I hadn’t realized that, but it could explain some of the behavior from obama.

    As for the FL re-vote, was that always off the table or did the posturing keep it off the table long enough to make it impossible? I don’t know.

  14. As for giving up an advantage, Obama would have had an advantage if he had been more graceful and magnanimous in the first place. Now I suppose it’s just too late. Why would anyone in FL or MI vote for him? I can’t imagine. Low self-esteem maybe?

  15. I do not believe the dem base, will just snap back. I’m older now, I don’t snap back too good. But to be fair I can see why the Dem elite thinks we will….I mean i did vote for that amazing brigade of losers they have trotted out for Mr. Hope and Change….and the latest idea? Sam Nunn?? Is he the Dem’s Dick Cheney in these W redo? Some change

  16. You’re kidding, right? Sam Nunn? I didn’t even know he was still alive. Hey, why not George McGovern? Plenty of gravitas and experience with losing big.

  17. jjmtacoma: No, this year is really different. Protest voting may be the only thing that purges the party of the destructive elements that have taken it over. Besides, Obama himself is the worst candidate since Bush as far as nasty campaigning and I will not be a part of putting him in office. It would be one thing if I didn’t know what I was getting but I know what he is. There is no excuse for *me* to knowingly hand the keys over to him. I would regret it for the rest of my life.

  18. It is pretty evident that there is a fissure here that will not heal before November. So many of us feel the sting of being ignored. The over 50 voters, women, blue collars, gays, possibly Latinos, those earning less than $60,000. People who give a damn because we have to.

    He is supported by kids who have yet to make their way in the world and are swallowing the rhetoric without substance. AAs who are basically monolithic this time around and the more upscale of the population who are accustomed to their comforts and cannot see beyond the “cool guy in the room”. Add to the mix a doting media who wanted to turn this into an “historic” contest and chose the guy over the gal.

    How do they expect to win these coalitions back? Is the fix so tightly assured that the votes won’t count anyway? For a party that celebrated its inclusiveness and stood for the “bootstrap” way of governing, this time they are coming up short.

  19. And now, 3 FL dlegates, one for Edwards, one for Obama, one for Clinton are suing the DNC.

    Agian, Riverdaughter, great post.

    Obama had the chance to make nice with FL & MI.

    Both offered 1/2 the delegates but full popular vote.

    He refused.

    A fully funded revote in both states was offered.

    He refused.

    Now, FL and MI are being courted for our votes by Obama and his pack of worshippers, offering peace & unity.

    Now, WE refused.

  20. There is no excuse for *me* to knowingly hand the keys over to him. I would regret it for the rest of my life.

    (nodding) This is what I told my mother yesterday. I’m frightened of his inexperience. And even more frightened of the people who might be behind him.

    I think one thing the Bush administration taught us is that there is A LOT of money that can be made from the US Government. What else besides the promise of unlimited wealth could inspire Obama’s wildly successful fundraising successes?

  21. Davidson:

    :” I honestly feel he sees Clinton as some sort of perverted symbol for his white, feminist mother. Hence, the deranged hatred for her. He just can’t beat her; he has to punish her–destroy and humiliate her.”

    Conflucious has spoken words of TRUTH!!!

    My GOD YOU ARE SO RIGHT!

    He’s having total abandonment, affection issues.

  22. Hi Katiebird!

    Question, what’s the HTML code to do a quote? Is it

    ?

  23. This isn’t my first Presidential election. I’ve never seen the animosity towards us that I see from the OFB.

    I felt less hostility from the GOP towards us (the supporters) than I do from our so-called fellow Democrats.

    The GOP hated Bill Clinton, but not all Democrats. They were never as rude and insulting as what I see from Obama supporters. The Obots hate us as well as Hillary.

    Fuck them.

  24. jjmtacoma: Yep, the number would move upward to include the FL votes, I just don’t have the numbers on hand. But you’re right, it would likely put him back under the plurality number (if he took the full hit).

    Davidson: Yikes. I don’t know that Obama’s going all Sigmund on Clinton. Or that he hates his mom?

    Bostonboomer: I’m not sure that there’s anything Obama could have done differently to snag people invested in Hillary.

  25. SM & Davidson: I’m not a shrink, so I’m not going to analyze why Obama behaves the way he does, or his supporters.

    I look at their behavior, and see all I need to know.

  26. SM: Use the blockquote tag for a quote.

  27. Hi SM,

    The blocked quote like I used above? It’s:

    < blockquote> Put your quote here < /blockquote>

    (Remove the space next to the < )

    — I hope this works….

  28. !! It worked!!

  29. Ella – He could have played fair. He cheated, so he has no legitimacy in our eyes.

    I’ve backed primary losers before, and had no problem getting behind the nominee that beat my candidate.

  30. I have seen no evidence of Obama being a leader. I can’t find anything on his resume that he has lead unless you want to count a one-year stint on the Law Review while in law school.

  31. Riverdaughter & Katirebird, thanks!

    I wanted to post this great quote/comment regarding Davidson’s psychological snapshot of Obama’s “Mommy Issues”

    It’s from the Larry Johnson/No Quarter blog, thread is “A Majority of One: On Losing the Democratic Base” written by Bud White.

    I don’t know if the commenter wrote this or if this was a cut & paste from somewhere else, but it’s worth a read.

    Comment by gorgonica | 2008-05-22 19:09:28

    Troubling Dreams: The Oedipal Obama

    I will not vote for Barak Obama for many of the reasons already listed and for something more intangible. I think he has troubling psychological issues.

    None of what I’m exploring in this post has to do with conscious constructs but rather with well-known unconscious tropes.

    I find it uncanny that the primaries are playing out the egodystonic intraspsychic processes in Barak Obama. To wit:

    Abandoned by White Mother/Politically Abandoned by Older White Women. Barak’s mother abandoned him to go off and pursue her own interests leaving him with his “white” grandmother. Although consciously children can recognize these actions as not being their fault, unconsciously, at the id-level, they process this as their fault. Isn’t it uncanny that Obama’s problem is with independent white women who are roughly the age his mother would be had she lived?

    Has he unconsciously set the environment wherein he replays his teenage years vis-a-vis his mother. I suspect he was driven to jump in the race because Hillary (career white woman) gave him the perfect foil to re-live and psychologically punish the mother who left him behind.

    She is roughly the same age as his mother would be. Somewhere deep inside, he doesn’t want her to win because that would mean mother choses career over son all over again.

    I don’t buy the threat about Roe v. Wade because Obama will nominate the judge that overturns it. He, I suspect unconsciously, sees career women as whores and bitches because they abandon their sons.

    He will likely nominate an older woman to the Supreme Court who reminds him of his mother (he needed to both defeat his mother (Hillary) and retain her in a position to judge him (Supreme Court).

    Obama didn’t get to come to grips with the standard Oedipal process. His father left and his mother left during his formative adolescent years. Unconsciously, I suspect, he harbors the natural childhood hatred for the people he was left behind with – his grandparents (hence the driving away of older/senior voters).

    He didn’t get to contend with his father over his mother. Look for him to be driven to have an affair with a slightly older white woman.

    Obama craves approval from the absent father. Look at the prominent older male superdelegates, MSM pundits, and predominantly male bloggers, that have sided with him. They and Rev Wright are the father figures he craves but can never get enough of. He will seek approval from African and Muslim leaders to fill the empty “father hole in his heart.” He will also likely go to war with a country lead by a black African leader to play out the Oedipal process.

    The hatred for Hillary Clinton and Bill Clinton also has intrapsychic roots. Bill like his father sought out other women but Hillary didn’t leave Bill. This is a situation that he probably longed for but did not get so it is a source of anger and envy.

    He will also play out his Oedipal process with McCain. McCain will represent the hated, needed, loved, longed for abandoning father. If McCain chose Colin Powel as a VP, I think we would see Obama driven more to sparring more with Powel than McCain.

    With an Obama presidency, the white women who abandon him and even those that don’t will receive the brunt of his policy anger made manifest in the public arena. Look for him to try to destroy Hillary Clinton whether she supports him or not in the general election. He wants his mother figure figuratively back home with her son. He will unconsciously choose those policies and programs that restrict women’s careers and rights in the public sphere.

    I am worried that Obama is the culminating force of the backlash against women that started from the 70s. Ideals are often destroyed from within and it is often too hard to see these patterns developing and enacting until after they occur.

    McCain has psychological wounds from being a POW. Hillary has psychological wounds from Bill’s betrayal and these are powerful forces but Obama’s is the most powerful. Their issues occurred when they were adults. Obama was abandoned by both mother and father and he craves approval that’s why he rejects it so and why he draws so many to him to heal that wound.

    His family projects the picture of the 50s nuclear family. Good image politics but also a frame of what he wants and what he wants to give us. It is the working class that sees the flaw in this picture because in working class families women need to work to keep their families together and food on the table as they always have. Its only the upper class that can afford a choice and they too are echoing Obama’s wound. “Mom left for a career, lets punish her.” Their hope is the hope for a new Father’s Knows Best world built on the unconscious hope of the “destruction of an independent mother.”

    The other troubling aspect of Obama is his unresolved issues of dual identity. Barry one day, Barak the next. He won’t have any problem abandoning any constituency because he can fluidly shift into another identity. If those Barak supporters annoy him, well they don’t know and never supported Barry. Look for a possibly psychological breakdown or a real abuse of power against the American people if he is thwarted. Michigan/Florida is just a foretaste of what is to come.

    Along with all the troubling overt elements of his campaign and his associations, these are the aspects of Obama,the candidate that give me pause. They are suppositions and hypotheticals but I find it utterly uncanny that older white female voters are reenacting Obama’s abandonment syndrome. Many children when their parents separate blame themselves. Isn’t it interesting that he has fostered a deep split in the Democratic party between men and women)? Is he unconsciously re-creating his family history. “Oh she will come back,” “Oh they will come around.”

    I don’t want to be a part of his psychodrama. Either of the other two candidates seem less largely wounded.

  32. “…What’s worse is that it is at the hands of the “good” party this time. Who can you trust?…”

    Yep, Riverdaughter. That plus the electioneering is the scary part. Is this what voting is going to look like now?

  33. Wow, I am surprised. I 100% agree with this post. Seriously, seating Florida just plain makes sense at this point: it is win/win vs lose/lose. Gee I wonder which one we should pick? Anyway, a little more than a week until the DNC meeting; here is to them being seated.

  34. myiq2xu, he’s cheated from the beginning. The first we knew was when I took his name off the Michigan ballot. This is infuriating to me — what serious candidate takes there name off a state ballot unless they’ve got something nefarious in mind?

    And once he did that he gave himself a claim for denying the voters of Michigan their place at the convention.

    AND Then, the OFBs say, Oh, she’d do the same thing if their positions were reversed.

    Oh, really? Well — no one’s ever run a campaign as Obama has run his. So why would anyone think Hillary would make the same cruel decisions?

    What scenario would have them in each other’s position? How COULD Hillary be in his postion?

  35. Have no idea what is going to happen anymore. At one point I really thought that the FL and MI issue would be no-issues at all since one of the candidates would have clearly won by now.

    However, the way things are going it has become a big mess. Don’t see/don’t know how the DNC is going to be able to fix the great divide created.

    Oh well, there is always 2012 for Dems. to try again.

  36. Just read gorgonica, spot on. Once here I said multiple abandonment issues, plus “malignant” narcissism. Not a good combo for President.
    Too dissociative almost borderline sociopath — they are often considered charming, are heads of unethical corporations and go undetected until people question their actions. He is often portrayed as Janus faced — there is a reason for this. Wounded, and culturally wounded as well. Ever notice how it is so all about him?

    It’s not about the country as a whole.

  37. myiq2xu: What’s the cheat? (I mean, is it a specific FL/MI issue, or are you referring to something else)

    The thing about these two candidates is that though their platforms are pretty similar, what they represent to supporters is totally different. In the past, it’s usually been a governor or a senator who’s white and male and has a campaign that’s similar to his opponent’s. Different campaign themes, but their histories and bios are generally not that varied.

    And now we’ve got Clinton and Obama, who are both way off the usual charts in terms of personal histories, each history attracting a very different demographic. Their bases are hugely polarized to match. So it’s not totally shocking that it’s harder to get behind the candidate that you’ve decisively NOT identified with, especially as they’re so far apart.

    I admit, if Obama doesn’t get the nom, I’m not going to identify with Clinton. It will feel like I’ve lost out on a presidency that represents me. Clinton’s a far cry from what I want, and it’ll be tough to make that sort of change.

  38. @myiq2xu: Of course we analyze why he and, especially, his supporters act the way they do (e.g., condescension towards the working class, misogyny, the folly of youth, etc.).

    It’s just a thought as to why he’s so damn hateful of her to the point it’s politically self-destructive (see: alienating Clinton voters) while taking into account his “problem” with women. He has the DNC establishment backing him, rigging the nomination for him, and yet he still relishes in offensive, anti-Clinton attacks (think: during the Edwards endorsement speech, he smiled when Clinton was booed, which was just last week).

    It’s almost as if he can’t help it. You can see it in how he looks at her: it’s personal to him. That “SNOB” poster of Obama striking an absurdly arrogant pose is from him looking down at her last year (I believe) during a senate press conference.

  39. Weird, a plane just passed over my house *really* low. Seriously scared the bejesus out of me. Sometimes, being this close to NYC is tremor inducing.

  40. VBonnaire, I commented to the author that they either are a forensic profiler or a psychotherapist or both! Everything is just laid out to you.

    And Davidson, it’s not just the SNOB issue, it’s pure hatred for his mother. And Hillary is just like mom, independent, feminist, fearless, career woman.

  41. davidson, I am not so sure BO hates Hillary. I think Michelle hates Hillary and BO, in orderto keep Michelle happy and connected to him (not abandon him like his mother did) will do whatever she wants. And right now she wants Hillary destroyed.
    (but what do I know. I’m a typical white, working class, uneducated of a certain age, woman)

  42. Ella: Obama, through his surrogates, played the race card and slimed two of the finest people in this country, two people who have made civil rights a priority all their lives. They have also accused Hillary’s supporters of racism. That includes me.

    False accusations of racism are the political equivilent of false accusations of child abuse.

    That’s the worst kind of cheating.

  43. “I think he is wrong, but I am also a little afraid that he might be right. Will everyone just get in line in November?”

    I really think it is too hard to say right now. The one thing I would add is that he only needs enough (however much that is) to “get in line. If say, one in ten could not get over it, I think he could weather it.

  44. does anyone know where, in his graduating class, BO finished ?

  45. yet he still relishes in offensive, anti-Clinton attacks (think: during the Edwards endorsement speech, he smiled when Clinton was booed, which was just last week)

    Why does he do this stuff? And how does he continue to get away with it? Such rudeness.

    {{riverdaugher}} I’m so sorry you were shaken up. We’ve had planes & helicopters do that here now and then (we’re in the path between a couple of military bases) It can feel almost like an earthquake.

  46. Ryan, do you think I can stop himself from giving McCain “The Finger” for the next six months?

  47. Anyone believe for one second the GOP won’t be doing their darndest to ensure they fire up the evagelical base – for starters?

  48. Is anyone else here sick of the meme that Clinton and Obama have “similar platforms?” Their views are very different on every issue that is important to me, yet I constantly see Obama supporters saying this. It simply isn’t true. It also isn’t true that Hillary never said anything about seating FL and MI until recently. She has been talking about it at least since New Hampshire.

    Davidson and SM– after all the reading I have done by and about Obama, I also came to the conclusion that at some level this man hates his mother. It comes through in his writing about her and his rejection of the white woman he almost married seems related as well. I wrote a post about some of this awhile back. Since I’m a psychologist, it’s natural for me to think in these terms.

    I don’t have the energy right now to read the long quote you posted, SM, but I’m anxious to, and will read it carefully in the morning. One striking thing that I noticed in it though. The writer says that Hillary would be the age of Obama’s mother. Only if she bore him when she was about 13. Isn’t it interesting how people think of him as young and her as old–more sexism. They are closer in age than I am to my youngest brother.

  49. Davidson: I look at the behavior, not the cause of it.

    I see the sexism and CDS, I can predict what they will do because of it.

    I don’t really care if they are sexists because of an oedipal complex or because a babysitter showed them her honeypot when they were 5 years old and it scared them.

  50. Ryan and JJ: I think someone should ask Howard how many people have reregistered from Democrat to unaffiliated and if this year is unusual in any way. If it is an anomaly, he should be afraid, very afraid.

  51. BB: Not only is it weird that the Obots keep saying it but it makes me wonder why they loathe her so much if they think she is essentially the same,

  52. Katiebird:

    Why does he do this stuff? And how does he continue to get away with it? Such rudeness.

    Because he is a sociopathic demagogue in the making.

  53. @myiq2xu: Of course: behavioral patterns are solid at this point. I’m just fascinated by it, that’s all.

  54. BB: I am sick of that and many other memes. I miss the Confluence the way it was before Ben at Politico brought us so many new visitors. But that is just me. I do not mind dialogue, but we are not really having much of that lately, just chattering.

  55. Boomer, please read it when you have time, it was very telling.

    I swear, I thought I was reading something that Dale Hinman(forensic profiler) would say on Court/Tru TV.

  56. myiq2xu, I obviously disagree with that theory. I think Hillary’s comment about LBJ and MLK Jr was unfortunate, but I don’t for a moment think that she meant it to be taken the way it was. Bill, on the other hand, I think knew exactly what he was saying with the Jesse Jackson comment.

    I have a very difficult time attributing every single thing Hillary’s surrogates say to her, and the same for Obama. Some surrogates for Hillary have said hideous things — I tend not to take any of it to heart until I’ve heard it from the candidate or their inner circle.

    The psychological profile of Obama above is awful, though, and insulting. And as I doubt the writer has read Obama’s books and seen the obvious love he had for his mother, it’s also completely hurtful. Since when did dead mothers become fair game?!

  57. I should note, I’m also fascinated why the DNC is so hellbent on essentially throwing the election just to de-Clinton the Party.

  58. Ella: What hideous things have Clinton surrogates said?

  59. A few theories that I’d advance here:

    1. I think Precious has written off FL and MI so take that and stuff it in your chad riddled ballot box. Add KY and WV to FL and MI and what do you get, a 50 state strategy.

    2. With all the baying and whining of the talking heads withstanding, there really isn’t much difference in either the delegate count or popular vote. Precious can’t allow Sen. Clinton to be one vote closer or it might be the tipping point. Okay, I know that this isn’t a good one, but who knows what evil lurks in the head of the Axe Man.

    3. This last one will boil a few keyboards, but what the hey, I’m going to throw it out any way. I think Precious may be doing this because he can — the typical, breast beating, club carrying, Me Tarzan psychology that is all to often apparent in politics. Precious has been given just about every out there is except of course that Sen. Clinton didn’t exist and he gets all the votes, all the delegates and a pony too. You have “banchee Dean” moving closer and closer to the Precious campaign and I think it just shows who is now playing “Chuck in Charge.”

    Sen. Clinton should do everything short of burning the real Katherine Harris in effigy — the ozone doesn’t deserve the damage, to call attention to the shortcomings of the great “Unifier.” That’s the other piece of this whole charade that is laughable, he’s the one who is supposed to be able to bring folks together. I guess it is a new world where no is yes that his type of unification works.

    Hope everyone is having a great day.

  60. Also, BB —

    The only experience he’s got is this legislation he supposedly introduced in the Illinois & US Senate.

    But, he doesn’t seem wonkish enough to have actually researched and authored that range of legislation. Which makes me trust that story that much of the Illinois legislation was handed to him.

    And in the US Senate? How could he have had time to author anything?

    So does this mean he’s just signing onto stuff other people developed?

    On the other hand, Hillary speaks with a depth of knowledge about most topics that makes me think she’s sitting around reading background literature for fun.

    So, why do the wonkish sorts (say Ezra Klein or Kevin Drum) admire the non-wonk so much when there’s a pure-wonk running?

  61. Upstate NY,

    I’m finding the sweeties a little difficult to take too. Maybe they’ll move on eventually. Anyway, for some reason I’m in a bit of a bad mood and very tired tonight, so I hope my irritation will pass by morning. At DK I used to just skip over a lot of comments unread. I need to get in that habit again.

  62. Katiebird, I am not quite sure what you mean?

    RD, I have no doubt the amount or reregistration is unusual. I would not be surprised if it is higher than it has ever been. You are right, somebody should ask Howard how many have because it actually could be “too high.”

    Honestly, it is just too hard for me to form a real solid opion myself. There are so so many variables out there that could make or break this election.

  63. Ella,

    Thanks for the old Okie Dokie. Won’t try to bamboozle you this time.

  64. Sweetie alert!

    Sweetie alert!

    Ella, darling, if you’re going to defend Obama with his books, you have a lousy case to defend.

  65. Regarding Hillary’s championing of seating Florida’s delegates – I seem to remember that she flew into Florida THE DAY AFTER the Primary, not just for her victory lap but to say she will fight to have our delegates seated. So, her call to seat Florida’s delegates has been consistent from the beginning.

  66. Riverdaughter,

    “Not only is it weird that the Obots keep saying it but it makes me wonder why they loathe her so much if they think she is essentially the same.”

    I wonder if at some level they realize he’s not what they originally thought and they need to denigrate her so as to salve their own disappointment? It’s so laughable now when I think back to how idealistically he was talked about just a few months ago.

  67. This is a small blog. I don’t see why some people come here to drop their BS off. They’ve got so many Blogs that will welcome them.

    Do we have assigned bots? I mean, why would we have the same trollish people here. You’d think they would move on to the next distraction.

  68. John Kerry took 38% of Iowa state delegates, went on to win a majority of the rest of the states. I’d like to see a study on his “base” in subsequent states compared to demographics (meaning Edward’s and Dean’s results as a mix of geography and their “bases”) Adding, the momentum caused by each victory compared to the momentum of these moved up primaries. Is it similar or different? Is there something about candidate fatique and it’s backlash, media response and voter perplexity that doomed this particular set of primaries and primary dates? And for the love of GOD, why does Iowa have to be the litmus test?????

    just saying….

  69. Ella: You are aware of the “race memo” put out by the Obama campaign to push the “Clinotons are racists” talking points?

    How was comparing Obama to Jesse Jackson a racist remark?

    Jesse won SC twice by the same margins as Obama. Who else should Bill have compared him to? Himself? Or John Edwards (who was still in the race at that point?)

  70. BB: There are certainly differences in their platforms, but once there’s a nominee (and when people who backed a non-winner have to reconsider), the only other platform out there is the Republican one.

    I want to vote in the Presidential race. That means comparing the R and D platform, and it’s a pretty fair bet that even if Obama doesn’t get the nomination, I will agree more with Hillary’s platform than I will McCain’s. So I’ll vote for the one I agree with most.

    I’ve seen a protest vote before, in 2000. It sucked. And until there’s a viable third party, I am not interested in splitting the Dem vote again and ending up with what happened.

  71. Back to topic, I’m VERY HAPPY that 3 of our congresspeople, delegates for Clinton, Edwards and Obama are suing the DNC!!!

    FDR is definitely rounding up buses from what I know, from Orlando, Tampa, Miami, Jacksonville, Fort Myers, etc.

    This is a very organized group – again, lodging and transport is covered for FL residents.

  72. BB: They sure don’t talk that way now do they? The whole campaign is just CDS now.

  73. Why not just consider that Obama has been at the right place at the right time. He is smart, he is articulate, he can be charming, and he is astute enough to get to where he wants to be by getting close to the people who can make that happen.

    I have no doubt that his association with Rev. Wright was based more on Michele’s view of things than his own. Being in that church afforded him the political ties he needed to move upward.

    Rezko, the same. A powerful political operative who could do him good politically and grease the wheels along the way. The promise of the good life.

    Ayres just happens to hold enough political clout in academics and the ability to serve on some powerful board of directors in Chicago.

    Someone with influence like Emil Jones was able to grease the wheels in the IL legislature to guarantee his name appeared on legislation crafted by somebody else.

    Ryan’s messy divorce in the US Senate primaries created the opening and with Alan Keyes as the opposition he was a sure thing.

    He comes to Washington, smoozes Ted Kennedy and gets the intros needed to the power makers.

    He is malleable and able to adjust to a variety of situations based on his movable upbringing. I don’t see him as someone with Mommy issues or a real hate for Hillary. She is just an impediment in his quest and it has not been as smooth a ride as he expected.

  74. Florida, Michigan, and perhaps, most importantly, Puerto Rico will be the keys to a Hillary nomination.

    The press is writing off Hillary and I hope that changes after June 3rd.

  75. SM,

    I’ve actually read Obama’s books and there are a number of underhanded digs at his mother in them. Obama’s defense mechanisms are also quite interesting. He seems to use passive aggressive behavior very frequently and also reaction formation–kind of a “he doth protest too much” thing. I thought both of those were evident in his treatment of his grandmother in that speech. And of course projection–just like GW Bush, you just have to listen to what he says about Hillary’s tactics to know what his own campaign is doing, e.g., “she’s throwing the kitchen sink at me.”

    At some level Obama hates the white part of himself, which came from his mother, and longs for the idealized father who abandoned him. And he seems to blame his mother for the loss of his father too. Shelby Steele’s writings on this are fascinating.

  76. Ella:

    I think Hillary’s comment about LBJ and MLK Jr was unfortunate, but I don’t for a moment think that she meant it to be taken the way it was. Bill, on the other hand, I think knew exactly what he was saying with the Jesse Jackson comment.

    There is so much horse manure in those 2 sentences, you could help many farmers.

    What “unfortunate” thing did Hillary say about LBJ and MLK?
    What Bill Clinton say was meant to put some context Obama’s victory in SC, which is what people do in a competition.

    Of course the Obama campaign sent memos to the media pretty telling everyone to pay attention as to what racists the Clintons were.

  77. Back to topic is good. Thanks SM.

  78. If FL and MI get seated 100%, I think Hillary has to over take a 76 delegate lead from 370 something delegates left. That is, of course, if super delegates don’t change allegiance between now and August.

    It is a hill to climb but if anyone can climb it, it is Hillary.

  79. Pat: Like I said, I don’t care about his motivations. Either way he is a piece of shit.

  80. A leader would just agree to seat them. A man who is confident of winning would just take the hit and make peace. So, are we to conclude that he is not a leader or not confident of winning? Or both? And what is that saying to the superdelegates?

    RD — WHAT is with the SuperDelegates?

    Some are obviously reluctant to give him the keys. But enough of them have dribbled over in the last month to make me really wonder about their motives.

    The race is so close, he’s willing to risk permanently offending (ah but maybe he doesn’t acknowledge that possibility) 2 states. But at the same time he has such a commanding lead he can’t be beat and is already picking a VP.

    How can both facts be true? And what is Howard Dean up to? I didn’t realize until a couple of days ago the Obama was an original Dean Dozen. Does he feel some loyalty to that group?

  81. Mawm,

    It certainly appears that we have been assigned one, doesn’t it?

  82. @myiq2xu: Ha!

  83. and its name is L-AH

  84. Leslie,

    To get deeper down into the psychological analysis, my theory is that (besides her family’s Chicago political connections) Obama married Michelle so he could experience his anger through her vicariously. He seems to have a very hard time directly confronting any person or issue (he won’t even campaign in states where he’s not adored anymore). She is much more open and clearly an angry person. So she can act out the rage they both feel and he can stay above it.

  85. Those who do not learn from history are bound to repeat it….Santanya….The 2004 primary is very precsient to the frustrations of this one.

  86. Holy Hemiola! We’re closing in on 600,000! Less than 200 hits to go.

  87. myiq: I don’t disagree with. I am only making the argument that he is just another “political hack” and not necessarily someone who has deep seeded Mommy issues. He has been very fortunate in his rise based on nothing more than a good speech delivered 4 years ago.

  88. Ah… what are we doing for the 1000K?

  89. BB: Shaheen’s comment was what really made me sit up and start paying attention, aI think it was also the first broadside from her camp. This article covers the early-stage slams: http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2007/12/21/clinton_surrogates_throw_the_jabs/

    Bob Johnson rehashed the drugs theme in January: “”I am frankly insulted that the Obama campaign would imply that we are so stupid that we would think Hillary and Bill Clinton who have been deeply and emotionally involved in black issues when Barack Obama was doing something in the neighborhood that I won’t say what he was doing but he said it in his book.””

    The constant drumbeat that implies Obama’s somehow soft on Jewish issues is another note that’s been pretty worrying: http://www.newsweek.com/id/114723
    http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters?bid=45&pid=278988

    And the constant misrepresentation of the “present” votes in the Illinois legislature, where actual Illinois lawmakers say it’s a regional quirk that was a valid political move, and an abortion rights group affirms that Obama placed those present votes to provide vulnerable lawmakers with cover from ludicrous votes… Again, I felt a complex issue was being unfairly and facilely manipulated to take advantage of the unusual regional quirk and trick people into thinking he was a coward. I mean, “A President can’t vote ‘Present’?” Yeah, exactly — because outside of the Illinois legislature it’s not a legit or available option.

    I’m not including silly stuff, like that guy calling Obama “kid” or the turban photo or the circulated “he’s a scary muslim” emails within the campaign — they’re either not proved, not possible Hillary’s fault, or typical online behaviour. But the stuff that got repeated and played into existing rumours — and I’d be on the verge of including “He’s not a Muslim…. as far as I know” in there, because that was just bizarre — that stuff got to me.

  90. I think at least half of these trolls work for Rove, not Axelrod.

    Obama couldn’t possibly be paying for advocates as bad as we keep seeing.

    Rove sends them in to piss us off.

    He should save his money, we’re there already.

  91. Well, RD, you deserve a pat on the back for this site. There’s some of the best writing on the web here (along with Anglachel), and, of course, we’re all supporting a truly excellent candidate. Lastly, you have an interesting and articulate group of commenters here (other than the trolls!). Not surprising we keep coming back.

  92. Congratulations, I think it was at like 350k like 3 weeks ago. Exponential growth indeed.

  93. myq2xu: “He should save his money, we’re there already.”

    heh.

    And by the way, I FINALLY understood your name (I never claimed to be all that smart…)

  94. Get ready for the Psychological warfare this Summer. I pray something about Obama hits that really moves opinion, but barring that, I think she can still prevail if she keeps the heat on. If Obama does not seat FL and MI 100% now, she has a giant club to wield throughout the Summer before the convention. He will look like such a jackass arguing not to count the votes. It sucks to be on the wrong side of a civil rights issue.

  95. myq2xu=myiq2xu

  96. Pat: Fortunate, yes, but his “luck” is due to powerful friends, not hard work or random chance.

  97. In an article from Detroit News, Tennessee Senator William (Bill) Brock said about front-running, “Today, too many people in too many states have no voice in the election of our major party nominees. For them, the nominations are over before they have begun.”

  98. Mawn: “It sucks to be on the wrong side of a civil rights issue”

    Agreed.

  99. BostonBoomer, it’s really there, the mom-hate, the underhanded sexism digs at Hillary.

    What struck me was the last line in the gorgonica post:

    “Is he unconsciously re-creating his family history. “Oh she will come back,” “Oh they will come around.”

    He’s confident that “we’ll be back, we’ll come around.”

    And he’s hell bent in pathologically destroying his “mom’ figure.”

  100. Katiebird,

    Does Obama seem like the type to you who gets enthused about something and then peters out? This is total speculation, but look at his career.

    After college he becomes community organizer. He doesn’t last that long, about three years. Goes to Harvard law, gets elected prez of the law review, but never publishes anything during his tenure. He graduates magna cum laude. I graduated summa cum laude, why couldn’t he? The grade inflation at Harvard is notorious, especially in grad school. Boredom? Then he goes to work for a law firm, but never tries any cases.

    Then runs for state senate and does zero until some mentor comes along a fixes up some legislation for him to put his name on. Runs for U.S. Senate, but then gets frustrated with the slow pace. After one year, runs for President. Gets bored with campaigning halfway through primary.

    Next? How long will he stay interested in campaigning against McCain?

  101. Who is the Sweetie that has been assigned to this blog? I have seen Ella and Michele. Am I missing someone?

  102. Upstate: It was given to me as a joke by someone I care about.

    Some people with no sense of humor and self-esteem issues get offended.

  103. BB ~ I agree with your thoughts re: Michelle and her anger. . Any time I have seen him angry – not often – he is uncomfortable with it. And his stuttering may well be a reaction to his inability to confront and to be honest.

  104. myiq: I think it is great!

  105. SM,

    I’m with you. I see something pathological in Obama’s mysogyny. He really seems to step in it more than most politicians.

  106. RD– I noticed that we were approaching 600K this morning. We’ve had a lot of traffic in the past couple of weeks. What can I say? You are a genius. You saw the opening and you took it. And I’m so glad you did!

  107. There are two Ryans. A “sweetie” Ryan, and a decent one.

  108. Pat–

    Who is Michele? That’s a new on on me. I haven’t been around much today.

  109. Do you think Donna Brazille might have smacked FL for how Gore turned out? Wouldn’t she have been a genius if that had worked out better?

  110. MA Blue: I think the phrasing of Hillary’s comment about LBJ was unfortunate, and not her fault at all. Sometimes you say something and the thought behind the words is clear and sound, and then when it comes out there can be a single word or a weird arrangement that makes it sound bad. I can see why “Dr. King’s dream began to be realized when President Johnson passed the Civil Rights Act of 1964… It took a president to get it done.” was taken badly. But I also don’t for a moment think that she meant it the way it was interpreted, and she didn’t deserve the amount of bad press it generated.

    Mawm: “and its name is L-AH”

    Ha! I read this and thought “Allah?” Gotcha now, though.
    Bill’s another kettle of fish. The only relation to the two events were “black dude running”. It was totally weird. I saw it live, looked at my sister and we both went “what?!” Why go back that far into the past? Why bring up a black candidate who won the state, only to go on and prove he couldn’t actually be viable? It was an unprompted comment from Bill and I’d love to see a psychological rundown of how that came about!

  111. michele is an ingenue troll. Her posts are upthread, but not worth reading.

    She said she believes in Santa Claus.

  112. Mawm: I like that part about the civil rights issue. The Clintons have fought battles on behalf of civil rights all through their joint political careers. How can that be swept under the rug along with denying FL and MI their civil rights in casting their votes?

    What possible argument could be offered other than the “rules”. If that is the basis of their argument than I guess the “rule” to have both a “whites only” and “blacks only” signs above water fountains would never have changed. Rules for some but not everybody. Won’t wash.

  113. Mawm — Thank you!! I had no idea there are two Ryans. I thought it was me going crazy. (whew) OK.

    bostonB, “Then he goes to work for a law firm, but never tries any cases. ”

    I think this is weird for someone who likes the spotlight. I’ve had lawyer friends without any interest in trials. But they also aren’t interested in being candidates.

  114. Prolix:

    “Add KY and WV to FL and MI and what do you get, a 50 state strategy.”

    Funniest comment I’ve seen today.

  115. bb: I was not around much today, on the couch feeling queasy. Michele was an early Sweetie who sounded seriously touched in the head with her rants. I think she may be up at the top.

  116. No Ella. The last 4 times that SC was contested in a Dem primary were Jackson in 84 and 88, Bill in 92 and Edwards in 2004.

    So who would he compare Obama’s win to? Himself, Edwards, or Jesse?

    Jesse got the same margin as Obama both times, but Bill’s was higher and Edwards was lower.

    Explain to me hou you think that was racist. Explain to me how a man who has spent more time in the AA community than Obama has is a racist?

    Explain how the President who promoted more AA’s and othe rminorities to higher positions in government is a racist.

  117. Is it true that Obama will be speaking in place of Ted Kennedy at Hillary’s alma mater? Just when you think they couldn’t stoop lower.

  118. Ella, clutching pearls: as I doubt the writer has read Obama’s books and seen the obvious love he had for his mother, it’s also completely hurtful. Since when did dead mothers become fair game?!

    There is an amazingly candid moment in Obama’s autobiography when he writes of his childhood discomfort at the way his mother would sexualize African-American men. “More than once,” he recalls, “my mother would point out: ‘Harry Belafonte is the best-looking man on the planet.’ ” What the focus groups his advisers conducted revealed was that Obama’s political career now depends, in some measure, upon a tamer version of this same feeling, on the complicated dynamics of how white women respond to a charismatic black man.

    Since he and his advisors decided his late mother serves as a model for the Jungle Fever campaign strategy.

  119. Melanie — no, Weslyan, not Wellesley.

  120. The MSM is evil. Anyone who follows their narratives is going down the diamond path.

    I wouldn’t listen to the media’s narrative about race in this contest. I would look at people’s actions over the past 35 years.

    For anyone to suggest that the Clinton’s are in the slightest bit racist is a race baiting racist themselves. The Clintons have done so much to advance AA issues, they should be above reproach on the issue. Any Democrat suggesting otherwise should be immediately denounced and repudiated by others in the party.

  121. Oh, ok. I was going to say. Is it a women’s college? I think it is.

  122. BB — she’s on Gary’s, The Boy Who Cried Wolf thread. Starting around mid afternoon. “She’s” scary.

    myiq2xu, “She said she believes in Santa Claus.”

    HA! As “proof” that she’s never told a white lie (laughing)

    You earned your name today. I would never have thought of that test!

  123. myiq2xu said:

    She said she believes in Santa Claus.

    HAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!! she did say that, din’t she? what a tool…..

  124. BB, I’ve been harping on the point you made since January.

    Precious has run for higher office every three years for the past twelve.

    1996 — State Senate

    1999 — U.S House

    2000 — State Senate

    2003 — U.S. Senate

    2005-6 — Yes, the Presidency

    Precious is a poseur. If he were to win, for what would he run in 2011, we won’t have discovered life on another planet by then — what to do, what to do?

  125. hir: I just read your post above. Jesus! These people are freakin’ out of their minds. This “transcendency” theme is disgusting and will divide this electorate for years to come. And all for the sake of an inexperienced and unqualified candidate that is being “sold” to us. I am not buying.

  126. myiq,

    I know I’m an old hag of 60, but come on, 1988 was 20 years ago. Is 20 years really now considered the long distant past for OFB? Personally, I was proud to vote for Jesse Jackson, and I wish he had won the nomination and gone on to be the first black president. His platform was actually progressive too.

  127. Melanie, many years ago Wesleyan was men only; now it’s co-ed.

  128. Dear all, thank you for helping The Confluence reach 600K. It looks like there was an unmet need out there for a different point of view. It remains to be seen whether we showed up on time. But no matter what happens, I am so grateful to katiebird, ronkseattle, bostonboomer, garychapelhill, litigatormom, dotcommodity and all of the commenters who are regulars (the young judith, judith, ghost2, MABlue, upstateNY, myiq2xu, Mawm, and all the rest of you who I will remember when we hit 700K).
    Take a bow, guys. Our little voice is getting louder.

  129. hlr,

    Interestingly, white women don’t seem to be responding that well to him. I guess the focus groups were badly selected. Maybe he’s not that charismatic? I never saw it myself.

  130. Holy cow! We hit it already tonight? Holy Toledo!

  131. BB, you are 60? no way, your pixels look so much younger!

  132. McCain just threw Hagee under the bus. How big are these buses anyway?

  133. Congrats!

  134. RD: I am honored!

  135. Is anyone else here sick of the meme that Clinton and Obama have “similar platforms?”

    bb, I just think it’s hilarious that this spin comes out now. Really? All along she’s been Medea meets Conan the Destroyer meets Nixon meets Satan and he’s been MLK meets Jesus meets the Force of Al Good in the Universe, and now their platforms are similar. It’s funny, but that kind of makes me think that the feverish demonization of one ‘similar’ candidate and the utter blind worship of the other must be based in something other than nonexistant policy differences–now what could that be? Oh, no, not the shape of their genetalia. I’m sure there’s a rational way to explain this.

    It’s weird, though. Most Clinton supporters I’m aware of started out open and positive towards Obama (and an awful lot of us were hostile to Clinton, as well). Our negative feelings toward Obama tended to come about because of his supporters and the way he’s conducted this campaign and learning more about his lack of progressive creds, lack of policy command, etc. How weird that Obama supporters have been tearing her to shreds for years and now discover–April Fool! All a mistake. Gosh, if only they could have looked at her record and positions a long time ago and discovered this similarity, all this frothing at the mouth over the top rhetoric could have been avoided. What a strange mixup. So does this mean “reaching out” a la St. Obama and “triangulation” a la the Evil Shreiking Harridan, etc., really are the same thing after all? Who’d a thunk it.

  136. Pat: that gives him freedom to confront Obama, if he is the nominee.

  137. What I also find disturbing , after all these years, is finding out that the egg head losers I have supported like a good little Dem since McGovern, don’t think too much about we, the Dem base voters . In fact they look down on us like BO himself. Block after block of Dem voters are being pissed on by Barry and these profiles in losing say nothing but jack boot in praise for him! I believed in these people! So now I am not just rejecting Barack Obama, except for Bill and Hillary Clinton , I am rejecting the last 40 years of Democratic Party Presidential nominees. That’s what I am rejecting . That’s why I will continue to do so.

  138. Mawm, the other day I saw somebody post under the name Ryan who appeared to be mocking the sentiments on this site. I read maybe half the comments on this site but I have only seen bizzaro Ryan once. I have always been upfront about supporting BO and I generally just call it like I see. Sometimes I do agree w/ posters here though (obviously I disagree often). For example, I pretty much completely agreed with RD on the original post here (or the credo, which is awesome too).

  139. Congrats to all Conflucians, especially to you Riverdaughter.

    You gave us this little piece of paradise.

  140. Congrats RD!

    I remember when this place was under 100k hits and still had that new car smell.

  141. {{{riverdaughter}}} Thank you for building this wonderful place. And sharing your grand vision and wonderful words. AND bringing together this wonderful group of friends and commenters. (and I’m not nearly brave enough to name names. )

    600,000 — it’s not my imagination, that’s a huge number. Isn’t it?

  142. Congrats RD! We greatly appreciate this piece of land you’ve discovered for the rest of us.

    Another group hug, fellow Conflucians! We’ve only just begun! 🙂

  143. Congratulations, rd! You have carved out a wonderful place!

  144. myiqX2u, Obama won SC in 2008 at 55%. Four years earlier, Edwards won SC at 45%. In 1988 and 1984, South Carolina held caucuses — a different metric entirely. Getting into a fight about who’s racist and who’s not is a way to go mad, so no, I don’t think Clinton’s racist — but I do think he made a totally bizarre choice of comparison that justly left people very confused about what that was about.

    hlr: I get pearls? Wheee! Otherwise, Rolling Stone hooked together a candid memory of Obama’s mom and a demographic slice. I don’t think his relationship with his mom dictated strategy; the demographic’s response dictated their strategy.

  145. Group hug okay, but nobody better try no touchy-feely!

  146. The Confluence took my blog virginity. Never got a virtual ring on my finger though…but who cares, right?

  147. rd ~ thank you (and all conflucians) for this haven. I am learning so much and feeling so safe here.

  148. OT: But WT….

    I have a Firefox plug-in to the electoral-map website, so the totals of Obama/McCain and Clinton/McCain are always on the bottom right of my browser.

    …today’s numbers made me almost pee my pants. Ladies and gentlemen, take a look at the Clinton/McCain map:

    http://www.electoral-vote.com/evp2008/Clinton/Maps/May22.html

    I won’t link to it, b/c you can find it yourself, but compare it to the Obama/McCain map. I mean….jeebus! JEEBUS!!

    I obviously don’t take these polls as gospel, since I’m not sure how Clinton wins NC over Obama since she got creamed (I live here, I can say it…) in the primary.

    But, just look at the Clinton map folks. Find a superdelegate and e-mail this to them!

  149. Ryan,
    I think it is kindof weird that you like to come here a lot when you support BO and this is such a pro-Clinton blog, but whatever floats your boat.
    Welcome.

    What I don’t like is when BO supporters continually try to spread the same misinformation over and over again, and then act like they don’t know what the issues are.

    Like the commenter above talking about the Clintons being racists. We don’t need that BS here. It won’t work to deter us.

  150. Ryan,

    I responded to the evil Ryan yesterday, thinking he was you. I hope you saw my apology. For what it’s worth, I don’t consider you one of the “sweeties.”

  151. RD, thanks for creating a place where I like to be. It’s sorta like the person who first created vanilla or chocolate — I’m sure they wondered if they would catch on — they probably sweated the first 600K too. Congratulations.

  152. Riverdaughter,

    Do you realize that at the rate we are going, you should hit 1,000,000 in about 2-3 weeks? Congratulations, and thanks for sharing the credit. I think that is one of the keys to your success: your generosity of spirit. Of course your first-rate writing is the other every important key.

  153. BB, this is the truth:
    “and thanks for sharing the credit. I think that is one of the keys to your success: your generosity of spirit.”

    (sniff)

  154. bostonboomer: Interestingly, white women don’t seem to be responding that well to him.

    racist lesbians.

  155. capstfufp: Interesting. The narrative though is that once the DNC appoints Obama those polls and maps will change overnight and he will carry like a gazillion states and all that.

  156. captsfufp, there’s a firefox plug in for those maps? How does that work?

  157. I’m going to the rules committee meeting in DC on the 31st. It would be nice to meet up with others there.

  158. katiebird,

    I hope we didn’t drive RD away by getting too corny, but it really is true. How many bloggers would have just offered us opportunities to write things and then trusted us like RD did? To me that is a sign of a person who has a very centered, grounded sense of self.

    And now I’m going to stop embarrassing RD.

  159. Hear, hear BB! Well said.

    Katie, I’m still LOL @ your ” (giggle) & hiccup” the other night at our “Cocktail Party”. What a riot. Look forward to more celebratory occasions to cheer, toast, giggle and hiccup. 😉

  160. {{BB}} by the way I totally agree with upstateNY — your pixels don’t look a day over 45.

  161. {{edwardian}} , I love ya, man!

  162. Edwardian,

    We still have Puerto Rico. Hillary should win big and get a big infusion to her popular vote tally. Then of course, we’ll celebrate when Hillary wins the nomination and then the general election, and in Jan. when she is inaugurated. Won’t that be amazing?

  163. HOORAY FOR CONFLUENCE!!!!!!!

    Woo-hoo!!!!

    Congrats!!!!

    Thank you for welcoming my loud behind – thank you for making this a haven for people who believe in Democracy, Justice, Equality, Fairness and TRUTH!

  164. Oh, by the way — Fuck the “Unity Ticket” I swear to God, the very thought makes me want to throw up.

  165. McCain has now thrown Parsley under the bus. I will start paying attention when he denounces Naomi Campbell.

  166. Katiebird, there are reports out there that it’s already been mulled and discounted. So no Unity Ticket.

  167. You guys have put a big smile in my face. With that thought, I am going to bed. Good night.

  168. BB: We still have Puerto Rico. Hillary should win big and get a big infusion to her popular vote tally. Then of course, we’ll celebrate when Hillary wins the nomination and then the general election, and in Jan. when she is inaugurated. Won’t that be amazing

    ((((((yes Yes YES)))))) 🙂

  169. Hey, thanks for the compliments on my pixels, Upstate and Katie. I work them out faithfully.

    You’ll find this out when you get here, but being 60 is even more freeing than being over 50. In my late 40s, I reached a point when I knew I wouldn’t take any sh*t from people anymore. After turning 50, I realized I didn’t give a sh*t what anyone thought of me anymore. I was just going to do what I thought was right. And then I realized I could give other people permission to be who they were. After 60, it seems you get even more mellow.

  170. I didn’t realize May 31st was a Sat…does anyone have the details of what time at the DNC?? I might just take a trip…

  171. Jesus! 600K hits already? Congratulations, everyone!

  172. Katiebird, I second that emotion…

  173. Goodnight, Upstate.

    I’m in a much better mood than I was when I got here, thanks to all you wonderful Conflucians.

  174. Bostonboomer, very true.

    Obama is supposedly going to PR tomorrow, and all the Clintons should be there this Saturday.

    From the news I read from there and from friends that live there, the pro free-but-associated state (PPD) rank & file members (about 1 million) is polling 50% Clinton, 50% Obama, and the pro-statehood party (PNP also at about 1 million) are almost at 100% Clinton.

    So chances are that she may get KY/WV numbers in PR – the chances are high!

  175. bostonboomer, my best friend is 62 and she says the same thing. It sounds like fun.

  176. SM,

    Great news. BTD has been saying that Hillary will win big in PR. I’m glad you think so too.

  177. bb: No one can ever discount our years of experience and the wisdom we have attained over time. You said it exactly right. We will not brook any crapola from anyone!

  178. Congratulations! I love the writing and thoughtful comments.

  179. I can’t wait for Puerto Rico. But, I’m glad they’ve got a couple of weeks to work on it. Are they going to ask us to call there?

  180. why does Obama’s behavior remind me more and more of GWB’s behaviors. Must win, can’t deal w. rejection, rather than apologize for honest or dishonest mistakes projects all blame onto the shoulders of HRC, is stubborn and won’t rethink a situation and now there seems to be a judgement issue.

  181. I just found the DNC’s list of Super Delegates as of May 15,2008

    It’s organized by state. But, it doesn’t have email addresses. I want to contact the Kansas SuperDs to give them my pitch for Hillary and asking them to reconsider endorsing Obama in the light of the Florida and Michigan situation.

    Sadly, most of our SuperDelegates aren’t elected officials. And I can’t imagine that they care about what I think.

  182. Oh no!

    Wasn’t Obama supposed to be stronger in the West?

    NEVADA

    Obama 40
    McCain 46

    Clinton 46
    McCain 41

    Go ahead DNC. Destroy our best chance to win in a landslide.

  183. katiebird:

    You asked who thought up the money laundering angle at corrente?

    🙂

    I’m the evil mind

  184. I think your IQ is at least 4 times mine! (especially since I can’t even remember where I read it) — I’m so sorry.

    You know I’ve spent my whole life resisting conspiracy theories (and they’ve been VERY popular at various times) but this entire election feels like a conspiracy.

    Will we ever know the truth? Will it be boring when it’s exposed.

  185. BB, I went back and looked for it and that one short comment about MA was made by me. I guess my attempt at humor more or less fell flat on its face. I guess I was trying to illustrate some of the more absurd logic I have seen used in other places, you know, stuff like: HRC opposes the nomination of BO, Republicans oppose the election of BO, therefore HRC is using republican tactics.

    The one comment I was thinking of had a lot of exclamation points in it. I probably should have been able to see that my comment was going to come across as, well, serious.

    The point I was unsuccessfully trying to make in an indirect way was that whether or not a particular state does or does not vote for a candidate cannot possibly be the defining benchmark of whether or not it is “racist.” I think electing a black person or a women is going to be one (of many) steps forward. Some people just seem convinced that not voting for BO is somehow a step backwards in race relations. I do not know where they are getting that from. Kind of along the lines of the post Gary made this morning about how using statistics to “proving” racism or sexism is quite problematic.

  186. MABlue.

    But we’ll win in spite of them

  187. Guys, I think we need to start to refer to the process as “the supers nominating Obama” because really, these two are basically tied. Hillary has won the last three months of the primary. The supers are needed to make the decision. They are siding with him(save that angel from Guam) so far. So let’s just call it what it is. The supers are nominating Obama.

  188. Thanks, Riverdaughter. You’ve done a wonderful service to American democracy. The MSM is too consolidated, fewer than half a dozen corporations control the TV mouthpiece, which exists to hold you to the next commercial.

    I used to find the Daily Obama stimulating before it was taken over by the Bots. It is hard to believe that the self-described intellectual “elites” could fall for Axelrod’s hokey ad campaign, but then Marcos and Huffington were Republicans and had their ear to the Republican Attack Machine when Clinton was President. (Maybe Marcos was Liberatarian; anyway both are new to the Democratic Party.) The “leader” of the Clinton assault was Newt Gingrinch– Arianna’s political guru until there was a rift (his intern perhaps).

    The silver lining is that a lot of people have discovered that they are being bamboozled by the media and that our 4th Estate is third rate.

    In response to a question above, I read that Obama graduated in the top 25 % of his class at Harvard Law. He may have had a leg up in admissions if he was emphasizing one of his groups over another when he applied.

    I think that Obama’s dislike of Hillary is simply competition. He has been used to having elections handed to him. His hired election official from Harvard leveled the playing field for him so he could run unopposed for his first election, he lost to Black Panther Bobby Rush but learned a bit about how to play politics. When the Illinois statehouse went Republican because of all the corruption in the Republican Party and because of
    Bush in 2004, Emil Jones, Jr., new leader of the State Senate decided he was going to make himself a U.S. Senator and made the others throw legislation to Obama. He just signed it.

    Then his opposition for U.S. Senate imploded because of wife-related sex scandals. The L.A. Times (now owned by a Chicago corporation) broke the story of his Republican opposition’s divorce (accessing sealed records).

    Once in the Senate the rock star Obama made a beeline for Kennedy. He revealed his “secret” about wanting to run for President, and certainly fed into the power struggle within the Democratic Party. Two Clintons in the White House would be too much. Better Obama who is beholding to the non-Clinton faction.

    Obama’s sense of entitlement is miffed by Hillary’s not stepping out of his way.

    Maybe I am being too cynical, but I think that the trial in Chicago with Rezko will broadcast the influence peddling of both parties. Obama needs to be in a position to pardon them. He was Rezko’s second choice for President. Democratic Gov. Blag is in Fitzpatrick’s crosshairs.

    I think Obama’s real abandonment issues are with his father. He seemed hurt when Edwards gently turned on him in the S.C. “debate” (Hillary transformed these softball events into an art form.)

    McCain is an alpha male who could be devastating just by treating Obama as an opponent. Obama couldn’t take the heat when he was in the ring with a girl.

  189. Katie: getting someone to dig is the first problem.

  190. CB: The fist thing he did when he reached the Senate was he hired Daschle’s (outgoing Majority Leader) chief of staff to do the same for him.

    How does a rookie Senator score the COS of the former ML?

  191. myiq2xu – (shaking my head) That sounds unlikely to happen. I’m also curious if any of Obama’s supporters have an interest in all the outsourcing opportunities?

  192. myiq2xu – Wouldn’t that usually be considered a demotion?

  193. Hey folks, let’s cheer up a bit. Nothing has really changed in past few days except for Obama’s posturing. The final nomination is not until August. In between we have the May 31st meeting, Puerto Rico, and a summer to push on super delegates.

    If nothing else look at what we and Hillary accomplished in last few months. She’s built both a virtual and actual army of supporters and volunteers across key states, most of whom are not leaving her. Riverdaughter, Lambert, Anglachel, and Sugar have built real alternatives to the A-List Bloggers and MSM.

    Do we have to keep reading crap in the paper? Sure. Is every idiot with a good toupe still on TV pontificating at the top of their lungs. Absolutely.

    But NO ONE WHO MATTERS GIVES A DAMN. American voters will continue to ignore them as they have done for decades now. We have built real outlets for organizing that will carry us through the likely McCain years (as my mother would Obama couldn’t carry McCain’s old jockstrap so that debacle will be fun to watch). Most importantly, as River alluded to above, we can look at ourselves in the mirror.

  194. Cdalygo, If I’m sounding down, it probably means I should be asleep. I don’t feel down about the election at all. I feel bizarrely confident. It’ll have to go to the convention. But, I know that Hillary’s in it to win. And she will.

  195. First, Barak was not involved in the DNC’s machinations in Michegan and Florida.

    Second, a vote for McCain is a vote for the fascists and the unabated perpetuation of the exact same predations, abuses, financial malfeasance, failures, supremist ideologies, wanton profiteering, and perfidious policies and practices of the fascists in the Bush government.

    Third, McCain will in no way advance or assist in any tiny little itsy bitsy your issues or concerns.

    Finally, the DNC is culpable for a catastrophic failure of leadership. If IMPEACHMENT were on the table, – we would not be having this discussion. The democratic parties elections process is a grotesque perversion of the democratic system, a needlessly complex, disenfranchising, elitist cataclysmic failure of democracy. The system, and all the leadership (every single one of the old guard DNC leadership) needs to step aside and allow and assist the new voices of democracy and the democratic party. The socalled experienced, or old guard democratic leaders have FAILED us catastrophically.

    I’ll happily support Hillary, – but any American that would consciously toss my daughters, and America’s future into the pit, – is someone on the otherside. I cannot support this thinking or this work. Either Hillary or Barak will at least attempt to advance the best interests of the American people, – anyone that mindlessly imagines McCain and the fascists will assist or advance the peoples or your specific cause in any way – is wildly delusional, and dangerously mistaken.

    Wake up! Your focusing your fire on the wrong target, and the wrong enemy.

  196. Yes, Daschle was one Obama consulted with as well as Teddy. Remember that “historic” keynote speech by BO at the Democratic Convention in 2004? Skinny guy with odd name who was catapulted into the role of Senator. Maybe because I have heard real preachers on the tent circuit and Daddy King, I was not moved.

    Kerry and the Democratic (non-Clinton) leadership were grooming him. He had been asked to give an anti-war speech in Hyde Park that wasn’t changing anything. Had he come to Washington and knocked on doors, I would have been impressed.

    What is astounding is that no one vetted him. Wright, Rezko, Ayers. Lack of any real accomplishments that weren’t passed on to him during his part-time job in the Illinois State Senate. It is great that he has written two best sellers based on composite characters that were quite self serving. I never found him of interest enough to read one. Am I missing anything? If BO is ever President, I’ll just be in ignore mode as I have been for the past 8 years. I have never found a Dem candidate so distasteful (and it can’t just be racist because Julian Bond at one time would have been my first choice for President).

  197. Charles: Weirdly, I think Koch is a better PR get than Ferraro — despite the fact that he’s mavericked between the parties for a while, Ferraro’s generally seen as someone who damaged the Clinton campaign and publicly blames the Obama campaign for having to leave the finance committee. It went down to a personal level in the MSM, so her not voting for Obama wouldn’t surprise me at all.

    Comparatively, Koch seems more impartial.

  198. Wow, I can’t believe it, you have 100% conformity here. How so you manufacture such pure one sided discussion in a democracy where open debate is what makes Democracy thrive and continue on?

    Long Live Democracy, Long Live Free Speech, Long Live to Ability to Manufacture Consent!

  199. Conformity breads rigidity which leads to entropy. Engaging, not dismissing idea’s is the fuel of evolution, increase, and advancement. Fundamentalist of every brood and flavor are the bane of humanity and pernicious. The line is drawn on crimes. Crimes cannot be excused because the otherguy-did-it, or because they-do-it-to, or any feeble inane or hollow blandishment. Crimes are crimes and left or right, there must be some convergence on the rule law, or in our strange case here in the land of OZ, that thing they cal the Constitution. Ignore, dismiss, or betray the rule of law, and in our unique place the Constitution – and we are a lawless nation. In a place where there are no laws, – there are no laws for anyone. Sleep tight with that information.

    Hillary, as Barak eloquantly states – fought a game contest, and won many victories, and proven herself to be a worthy candidate for the democratic parties choice as president. The FL MI debacles are the DNC’s work, and the DNC’s fault, a the ridicilous betrayal of the elections proces. Did Karl Rove manufacture the DNC’s elections process? It must change. MI and FL must be heard and their respective votes must count. If after these contests Either Barak or Hillary should triump, we – democrats, (not the Zell Miller Lieberman apostate democrats, but real democrats) should rejoice, rally around the chosen candidate and begin the daunting and arduous work for defanging and dethroning the fascists.

    McCain is a vote for the fascists and the unabated perpetuation of the exact same predations, perversions, betrayals, lawlessness, abuses, failures, financial malfeasance, supremist ideologies, deceptions, wanton profiteer, and fascist policies and machinations of the Bush government.

    I challenge you defend voting for McCain on any grounds other than hate.

  200. Oh, lord. is this the talking point of the day: DEFEND YOUR VOTE!!!!!

    good luck with that. you guys might do better spending an hour with dale carnegie rather than sun tzu or ‘the delusional guide to self reverentialism’ or whatever. this is money well spent.

  201. I’ll defend it:

    It’s my vote and I can vote for any damn candidate I want to.

    Only one candidate has earned my vote, if she’s not the nominee . . .

  202. So be it. You’ve obviously made your choice. This is what democracy looks. Unfortunately, this thing we call democracy is certain to be destroyed by McCain and the unabated perpetuation of the exact same predations, perversions, betrayals, lawlessness, abuses, failures, financial malfeasance, supremist ideologies, deceptions, wanton profiteer, and fascist policies and machinations of the Bush government. Good luck with that.

    I’ll be in the other camp.

  203. TonyForesta, your posts all come off like they’re written by an insufferable know-it-all. I mean, damn, consider for a moment that you don’t know everything and don’t set the rules of the universe.

  204. Tony – You make it sound like the Presidency is like a King. The last time I looked there where two other branches of government.

  205. tonyF: If the future under McCain looks so dire, then persuade the SDs to throw their weight behind Clinton. Because even if we all were mesmerized by Obama, he is *still* going to lose in November. Do you understand what we’re saying? He can’t win no matter what *we* do. He’s pissed off too many people especially in Florida, Michigan, Kentucky and West Virginia. Clinton is your best bet if you want to win. So, do you fear McCain or Clinton more?
    You still have a choice.

  206. Tony, I refuse to get behind a party that goes out of it’s way to make sure my candidate can’t win. If you can, that’s your problem. I still believe all our votes should count and until the DNC see that, they’re not my party. I also didn’t stay a Dem for 30 years just to be part of the sexist party. Frankly I don’t know how anyone can vote for Obama if he’s the nominee with all that’s been going on.

  207. I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain, I will not vote for McCain!

    OTOH – I won’t vote for Obama either.

  208. Is it just me or do Obama supporters act like domestic abusers?

    They’ve be abusive as hell for months, but now that we’re ready to dump them and move on, they start trying to guilt-trip us.

    “We need to stay together for the sake of the children party!

  209. Telling people they are delusional is a great way to ask for their vote.

    If you think this site is delusional why post here?

    Are you our psychiatrist?

    I would say anyone who thnks Obama can win the GE is delusional.

  210. Obama is telling donors not to donate to any entities besides Obama campaign. His people are currently taking over the party apparatus. When Obama can turn the money spicket on and off whenever he chooses, all Democratic candidates will have to suck up to him to get elected.
    There is a coup going on in the party. They are trying to shift the base from working class people to the elite. Powered by an almost hegemonious voting bloc, AAs.
    Defeating Obama and sending his Chicago style patronage politics to the dump bin is mission number one for me.
    I believe we need divided government right now. By all accounts the Democrats will increase their numbers in the house and senate. I shudder at the thought of Obama signing everything Reid, and Pelosi put on his desk. Clinton would not cowtow to Democrats in congress. This is one of the top reasons some in the party establishment don’t want her.

    If Obama is the nominee, I will vote AGAINST Obama, as well as AGAINST any down ticket Dems who endorsed him. I’m going to create a web-site with voter guides showing which Democrats endorsed the empty suit. I’m calling it:
    OPERATION POISON COATTAILS

    Repudiating the Obama machine and what it stands for is priority.

  211. Hans, We require basic civility here. Therefore, your comment has been removed.

    Tony, I can almost smell your fear. Too bad. Your candidate and you, his supporters, blew it bigtime by alienating huge segments of the Democratic Party. Many of us have already left the Party because of it.

    Sweeties: be a afraid, be very afraid. Don’t try to use your daughters to blackmail us now. We’ve battled for women’s rights for years. It’s up to the young women to battle for their own rights now. We can’t help them from under Obama’s bus.

  212. Oh, and Hans, if you want to see 100% conformity you need look no further than DK, TPM, and the other O-blogs. Not to mention your own self-deluded comments.

  213. “Conformity breads rigidity which leads to entropy”, this sounds like Obama babble to me. A string of words that kindof rhyme but really don’t say anything meaningful.

    You said, “McCain is a vote for the fascists ”

    McCain is NOT a fascist, and trying to paint him that way will never work, because sane Americans know it isn’t true. If you continue using words like “fascist” to describe him, you will simply sound crazy.
    Liberals throw out the term racist and fascist so much that they lose their real meaning, and that is a shame because the are definitely ugly things, and I wouldn’t want people to disregard it when it REALLY shows up. Check out the last post on this site, “The Boy that Cried Wolf”.

  214. Besides, it seems like the pro-Hillary blogs represent the NON-conformity on the blogosphere.

    Wouldn’t you be upset if we all packed up our tents and moved into your camp. It would so conformist of us.

  215. River –
    “But if they are never counted at all and Obama wins, then Floridians will be left with a mystery.”

    but it is worse than one state.

    Every state is disenfranchised because there’s been this locked up 2 million votes this entire time tipping the scales, possibly altering the votes of voters in other states who assumed as a result that the beneficiary of the “thumb on the scale” was the winner, and voted with that momentum, when it wasn’t there.

    Obama needs to start playing fair. Either count FL as is(or revote it), and revote MI.

  216. Cdalygo, @12:21 am

    Do we have to keep reading crap in the paper? Sure. Is every idiot with a good toupe still on TV pontificating at the top of their lungs. Absolutely.

    But NO ONE WHO MATTERS GIVES A DAMN.

  217. I am absolutely confident that delegates from Florida and Michigan will be seated at the convention. I am equally confident that Senator Obama will be the presidential nominee.

  218. I’m an Obama supporter and I say we should seat ALL the delegates from Florida and Michigan. Who cares?

    In every scenario imaginable, it will still be up to the superdelegates. It is up to them to select the best candidate keeping in mind the primary results. They are NOT mandated to vote for the candidate with the most pledged delegates anyway – this is not a popular election. In every scenario, the pledged delegate count will be within a 1-5% margin even if Florida and Michigan are added. A close enough margin to justify voting for either candidate.

    I want Obama to win with a passion, but if Hillary wins, once I complete an intensive psychiatric outpatient program to release all my resentment vs. the Democratic Party, by November I will passionately support Hillary vs. Another Destroyer of the Middle Class – John McCain. Either way, I shall continue my twisted love/hate relationship with Conflucians.

    One question for y’all: How would we allocate the delegates that represent the undecided vote in Michigan?

    THE LEFT
    http://www.crosspolemics.wordpress.com

  219. WE don’t get to allocate them at all. The should be allocated by the way people voted. Whatever % of Uncommitted should go to the Uncomitted delegates. It is really simple.

    Honor the vote

  220. Fine. I say seat all the delegates according to the vote and let the chips fall where they may.

  221. Riverdaughter – different subject. I read your credo and really liked it. Curious about your quote:

    “I believe that all of the Democratic candidates match my beliefs but that they have different ways to achieve their goals. I am going to vote for the best prepared, strongest candidate who I feel is the most capable of putting America on the path forward with solid policy and vision.”

    This is a powerful quote and points to the pragmatic liberalism that I myself espouse. I have a question for you:

    Don’t you believe that no matter who the Democratic nominee is, he or she will be more capable than McBush and match your beliefs?

  222. *cough* I tried to warn of the underlying cause of HRC’s loss, but you refused to listen *cough*

    I guess Hillary inserted the final sword in to her chest to end the agony. Now she will live with this for infamy and that is sad for what she could have achieved with some humility. 😦

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