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Sunday: Sweeties

Courtesy of UpstateNY and LavenderLiberal.com, we present this handy pocket guide to Obamaniac behavior:

Guide to Obamaniac Behavior

We believe they are oscillating between the blue and green sections right now. The thing is, many of us *aren’t* Democrats anymore, or should I say, Dean Democrats. We’re unaffiliated with the Dean Democratic party. But come Tuesday, they will be hard pressed to not jump to the yellow and red zones, which will undoubtably drive more of us to declare ourselves free of the childish Dean Democrats. Keep it up and the pie chart will shrink to approximately the size of a pinhead.

We expect to see more “Sweeties” drop in on us in the next several days. A Sweetie is a Rent-a-Troll (abbreviated R.A.T.) whose job it is to lay on some syrupy guilt trip to make us feel like we’re letting the party, the country and the starving children in Africa down because we don’t support the Unity Pony and will register our disgust with him and the party in November if he becomes the nominee. As myiq2xu said recently, “You know your blog has made it when you are assigned your own troll.” The Sweetie has been carefully prepped with psychological trigger words that have been focussed grouped to elicit the correct behavioral response from the newly emancipated “unaffiliated” voter.

Here is an example from “cate”, who is helping out the Obama campaign from, well, never mind, we will protect her multiple anonymities (for now. BTW, “cate”, how’s the weather out there on the Frontier? Sunny? Warm? Dry? This is quite a History making year for Women, wouldn’t you say, “Cate”? Maybe we’re not as stoopid asu presume, eh?):

I am sitting at my computer smiling; this reminds me of why I love being a woman. Even when I’m gettin’ blasted.
Bea, I’m not making an argument for Obama, really. I am asking why there is a commitment brewing to destroying an Obama candidacy, and ensuring a McCain victory. Is it that McCain is a better choice? It seems terribly selfish to bring down a Democratic nominee just as revenge.
Melanie, I know JOhn Edwards is no HillaryClinton, but you’re supposed to be making a fairness argument here, not a “my candidate is better” argument. Isn’t that where your moral high ground comes from? (smile)
Riverdaughter, you just rock. But old women have always cared about young women, and so do you (we). As for unaffiliated voters, let’s try presenting McCain’s history and present with lobbyists, his extraordinary temper, his admission that he doesn’t know anything about the economy….

Let’s take a look at “cate’s” technique because this is a perfect example of the Sweetie message. First, she identifies herself as a woman. This is very much in the style of push-pull power dynamics (Hey, Axelrod, you must think we’re really stupid if you think some of us haven’t been through these courses at work). Instead of pushing against your target, you stand next to them and appear to see the world in the same way they do. “cate” assumes we are women. Well, some of us are but there are quite a few of us who are men. But even the women among us are not typical women or we wouldn’t be posting here. For example, I work in a heavily male dominated field with a lot of international colleagues. I have been trained to not think in gender related terms so my mindset is both feminine and masculine. Never the less, “cate” is trying to stand next to me and “be on my side”.

Next, “cate” moves into the Saruman phase. “cate” knows that it is impossible to reason with an emotional target. She will save the rational push for the end of her comment. Right now, she wants to pull with some emotional content. But she doesn’t quite do it right. She identifies the emotion as revenge. The correct emotion is frustration. Because she thinks we are fiendishly conspiring to topple the Obama candidacy it comes off as push. She is labelling us as malicious conspirators. She also assumes, incorrectly, that we will all be voting for McCain. As I’ve said before, friends don’t let friends vote Republican.

But the biggest mistake she makes here is conditioning us to accept the Obama nomination as an inevitability. This is a huge mistake on “cate’s” part. Because there is nothing so damaging to a push as the idea that the target feels they have no choice. (go back and read the chapter on asserting. You must present the target with an option) Here, “cate” is promoting the idea that the only choice is between Obama and McCain. This is wrong. The nomination has not been determined yet and won’t be until the balloons drop in Denver. This is something “cate” should keep in mind. It’s a long time between now and August and delegates, both pledged and super, are free to change sides several times between now and then. Many of them may start to have buyer’s remorse. Depending on how Obama handles himself on May 20, these delegates may find many very angry constituents carrying pitchforks and torches banging on their doors late at night demanding satisfaction. Be afraid, “cate”, be very afraid. It’s going to be a long four months. If Obama reaches a pinnacle, there is only one way for him to go and nothing is certain. Bwahahahahahahaaaaa!

But “cate” is not finished. Now, she resumes her Saruman phase. We as women wouldn’t want to be selfish. Oooo, this is insidious. Tap into cultural norms, “cate”? Women are taught to be selfless. We sacrifice for others. We make our needs subordinate to our families and our male counterparts. It is in our natures to gracefully acquiesce. We are expected to be fair.

F^*) that s%$*. Listen, “cate” and all you other sweeties, we’re not just women. We’re working class (yes, I consider myself working class even though “cate” couldn’t even understand what I do if I took a whole day to explain it to her), we’re GLBT, we’re old, we’re young, we’re rich and poor, hispanic, asian. We’re Heinz 57. But the thing that sets us apart from the Obamaniacs is that we’re cold-blooded pragmatists. We are grounded. We’re not buying the hopey-changey unity shtick. We know that Obama is a smart man with a ruthless campaign manager but he is about as ready to run the country as I am to command the USS Nimitz. We don’t have any patience for your assumptions.

Here’s the thing you Sweeties should understand and get through your thick skulls: Hillary Clinton is still in this race. She will be in this race after the Presumptuous Nominee makes his little acceptance speech on Tuesday (BTW, I *highly* recommend that he not do this for his own sake. Bad things happen to tragic heroes who celebrate too early. They usually live to regret it.). We still have a choice. It’s Hillary or no one for us. There is no compromise between the highly competent Hillary Clinton and the highly unready Barack Obama. We don’t care if she doesn’t have a dime by August. We are not giving in. And if the balloons drop in Denver and she is not at the top of the ticket, YOU will be to blame if the Unity Pony flames in November. We are not obliged to enable you in your pursuit of some transfiguring fantasy.

We all have choices.

413 Responses

  1. “ATTENTION ALL DOGS!…My 3 Discuss the Issues, Decide to Endorse Hillary! (and pose for pics, too!)”


    My 3 sweeties address all dogs about important topics like health care and adoption and are going for Hillary!!!

  2. He can’t “accept” what he hasn’t been given.

  3. RD: typo. lavender=lavendar

  4. Thanks RD, I enjoyed that very much. I expect
    “cate” will be morphing about now.

  5. Obama’s paper-thin resume isn’t going to look any better in November… hopefully the super-D’s make a note of this…

  6. Excuse me for an offtopic question, but riverdaughter, could I post a diary here?

    I have a plea to Superdelegates of the eco persuasion to consider voting for the more progressive candidate, however it is posted in the deserted ruins of Cheetopia, where nobody will see it.

    Since it covers a energy plan comparison that the media has entirely ignored or deliberately misrepresented, I think it needs more exposure.

    I know it is wordy though…



  7. Gloria, that’s sweet.

    RD, great post. As you know, I believe the Obama 400 are most likely to be women. Well, I’m not buying what they are selling.

    I must take issue with this statement: We know that Obama is a smart man…

    I think he is the Left’s Mitt Romney. He thinks Kentucky borders Arkansas. He’s called for arabic translators in Afghanistan. He thinks it’s charming to call female reporters asking tough questions “sweetie”. Not signs of intelligence.

    OT, but I heard that on MTP this morning, when the topic of Hill for VP(which I object to, but believe, should it come to that, it ought be her choice), Harold Ford Jr. whispered under his breath “I hope not”. I have to ask, where do these people get off? I am sick and tired of fellow Democrat’s acting like Hill is so unpopular when she has won the majority of support of registered Democrats, has the pop vote, has outpaced BO since the beginning of March by at least 300k votes, won back the Reagan Democrat’s, won the majority support of women(who make up the majority of the electorate). Is it that she continues to shame him as she did with that blow out win in WV? I have a feeling that say BO becomes the nom, and many Hill supporters decide they will vote for him(just hold their noses), in that scenario, I think it will be just one more straw on the camel’s back and they will drop him forever.

  8. Lets rally behind either candidate, and defeat McSame and his Scalito-like Supreme Court appointees. The stakes are very high for women.

    I just dont understand why experience is such an important issue now with BHO, but wasnt when a governor from Arkansas, with no national political experience, ran 15 years ago.

  9. “Sweetie” alert.

  10. Yoda, he was the longest sitting Governor in the union and the head of the Governor’s association, meaning he had mucho national policy experience, and evidence of a fulltime job. Further, we were not on the brink of financial ruin or in the middle of two wars.

    Yoda when you say things like this:
    The stakes are very high for women.

    We know you are a troll. Now scurry back to whatever hole you climbed out.

  11. Yoda: Stick it where the sun don’t shine. When YOU get behind Hillary, come back and we’ll talk. Only then will I know whether you give a fuck about women.

  12. George Bush’s resume looks positively meaty compared to BO’s… at least he was a Governor… when has BO ever run any large public entity?

  13. Dotcommodity: I will send you an email.

  14. Old coastie, now is the time for Superdelegates to start to think about their decision.

    Their responsibility is to pick our best chance to win in November.

    Can we sue our Party for malpractice if they pick the already clear loser (by a landslide!) of the electoral votes needed to win the GE?

    Per electoral-vote.com McCain is still clobbering him 290 to 237!



  15. yoda,

    Please, please (I beg of you) list the full-time jobs Barack Obama held since graduating Law School.

    Please (please, I beg of you) list one — just one — major accomplishment from each of those jobs.

    I would especially like to know where he worked during his years in the (part time) Illinois Legislature.

    Thank you.

  16. Yoda, enough with the “BHO” already.

  17. thks, I would have emailed privately but can’t find one…

  18. Don’t call em sweeties! Only I can be a sweetie! ;-).

  19. Sweetee: different spelling, TOTALLY different animal

  20. Great post! I get trolls all the time, especially self-identified “women” who love to start with a compliment, I guess, to get my readers off guard or establish “credibility” — “they like something about me” (yah, right….)

    Then comes the BUT or the HOWEVER, and then, instead of talking about content or substance, they criticize my style, my “overblown” statements, etc., but generally don’t argue the issues.

    It is unfortunate, but McCain won’t be able to be stuck with “McSame” since he DOES have a reputation of being a maverick. He may be able to be stuck with “flip-flopping.” So, most mavericks are…. you see how that argument would go (“his own man”). But, HE may be able to pull it off.

    So, it will be McMaverick vs. McHope, IF it comes to that. Otherwise, it will be McMaverick vs. MsSolutions. I like the second one a lot better.

    Again, I have a piece over at MenForHillary.org entitled Why Aren’t we Complaining about Superdelegate Vote Abuse?, where you can nominate superdelegates for “Biggest Hypocrite” and “Most Democratic.”

    The DD (Dean Democrats) has some lessons to learn about voters in the 21st century (they push back, asshole) and don’t put up with crap, and have a system now where they CAN push back, which they didn’t have before…. it is called the Internet. Get used to it. Our “republic” styled country doesn’t need the checks and balances that the founders felt it needed… we got education now… and such. So, get used to it. Time to give up some power to the people, okay?

  21. Was watching George S. this morning and as usual he had Donna B as a guest. She had a smirk on her face that was troubling. They hardly touched on the possibility of the women defectors but she seemed to think that he will win in November. She knows something. Only one guest, Matt Bai from the NYT pointed out that Hillary has only a few point deficit in the count and should not be ignored. But they just went on to another topic. And Peggy Noonan, can someone please explain why they have this disturbed person on to give commentary? She barely looks anyone in the eye and her delivery is spooky.

  22. Pat: no idea who Peggy Noonan is.

    “She barely looks anyone in the eye….” as a parent of a young Aspie, I wonder…..ummmh.

  23. Pat: Don’t worry. You say that Donna Brazille “knows something”. When has Donna Brazille ever known anything?

    They don’t want to think about women defectors. They’re whistling past the graveyard for sure.

  24. Harold Ford DEFINITELY doesn’t want my vote. So glad, because he isn’t getting it anyway.

    I’m so glad you’all watch the shows so I don’t have to.

  25. Has Cokie Roberts been banned from Georgie’s show since she wrote a sane article about the suicidal tendencies of the DNC?

  26. UpstateNY: Peggy Noonan was a Reagan speechwriter. Helped to glorify him. She is a Repub tool who fails to make eye contact because she is never telling the truth. I don’t mean to suggest anything physical about her, she is syrupy in her delivery. She has been trotted out a lot lately to appear on MTP and Stephonopoulos to give commentary from the Right.

  27. Sweetee: “When has Donna Brazille ever known anything?”

    heh, Now, wait a minute, she knows about loosing GE’s.

  28. Hear-effing-hear! My underlying political philosophy has ALWAYS been that of freedom of choice. In whatever-it applies. Free to choose to vote or not to, to marry or not to, to take your spouse’s last name or not to, to abort that fetus or not to, to work or stay at home.

    Thanks for the great post.

  29. As far as the press is concerned this is over. Listening and reading today I have the distinct feeling that there will be little outrage at his self proclaimed victory and less coverage of Hillary on Tuesday. There is already discussion in the media about who he will choose as a running mate. Most are betting on a female. In retrospect, this would be a slap in the face to us. This “appeasement”, kind of a way to shut us up, would be the worst case of sexism.

    The Repubs are running scared in the congressional elections and are almost ready to proclaim defeat. However, they are hoping for a McCain victory for the WH. It is still apparent that they are ignoring us and are just again assuming we will all just get together in Nov come what may. I cannot do it.

  30. Does anyone know what time Hill is on Late Edition?

  31. @Pat Johnson, 11:05

    “She had a smirk on her face that was troubling.”

    That’s actually a tic. 😉

    Say, I haven’t yet dumped my fiance, the otherwise darling man who at times appears to have been replaced by an Obamapod person. We’ve got plans to spend Tuesday night together, during the counting of our state’s ballots. I plan to snip the cord on the TV. Just can’t bring myself to dump him.

  32. Pat: She had a smirk on her face that was troubling. They hardly touched on the possibility of the women defectors but she seemed to think that he will win in November. She knows something.

    Oh, the plan is to register kazillion new African American voters. States like OH, PA, VA, etc.

    Also in the Deep South. That’s one of the reasons the SDs are going with him — even if he doesn’t win at the top, the influx of AA voters means more Dem seats in the South. For example, that rep in MS who won despite dissociating himself from BO won due to heavy AA turnout in defense of BO/Wright.

    What this means overall is a more conservative Dem party. Those seats are almost always held by pro-life, anti-gay, bible-quoting types who would be considered fundy Repubs in states like MD, NJ, NY etc.

  33. So now the media will force feed that RACE is the issue with Obama when in FACT it is the content of his character and they play the race card to try to deflect the obvious.
    Why aren’t they having roundtables to discuss the Hillary NUTCRACKERS and a million other grossly in your face sexist memes that dominate this race?? Painting all of us as racist for asking the character/experience questions only does one thing: IT PISSES ME OFF. I am livid inside at the way Hillary has been treated. Livid that they have the AUDACITY to claim Hillary played the race card when their entire campaign has succeeded due to THEM playing the race card! UGH. If they deny her the nomination by disenfranchising FL and MI and denying LEGAL elections to win, how are they any different than a Banana Republic?

  34. Someone with Photoshop needs to put Obama’s face on the Commander Codpiece photo at http://proggiemuslima.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/mission-accomplished.jpg

  35. i love hillary too but obama’s the nominee now and all us little women need to like just give him all our support you know…

    i hope hillary wins oregon soooo bad, only way to shut these people up

  36. Loved the analysis! The “sweetie” posts annoy me more than
    all the other colors on the pie chart.
    You do know of course of the 400 “new” Obloggers hired to
    “sweetie” us into submission

  37. The Obama boyz are not sure it’s over, judging by the filth they are posting on non-Obot blogs. I copied some troll posts from TL early this morning. Here’s one:

    Dreamworld (1.00 / 7) (#44)
    by Obama2008 You Know It on Sun May 18, 2008 at 05:36:16 AM EST

    Keep making me laugh.
    Keep telling yourself that Obama cannot win. That is your final hope.

    But reality (if you chose to live in it), is that Clinton supporters have all come out for her early. She has not gained any new supporters, and she is losing some of her current ones.

    Meanwhile, the voters and the SDs prefer Obama, who is our PRESUMPTIVE NOMINEE.

    Just accept it you bitter old hag.

    Nice, huh? They got worse too. I think this one is in the tantrum mode. After hearing Hillary on the blogger call, I am impervious to them. They make me laugh.

  38. Obama2008 is dead wrong. It’s Obama who peaked in February. Hill has earned at least 300k more votes than him since the beginning of March. Further, the higher the turn-out(ala WV), the better she does. They really need to stop acting like Hill is chopped liver and their guy is Elvis.

  39. From Anna, at Anglachel’s Journal:

    “I’m feeling really slow: I’ve just realized how closely this whole campaign tracks the patter of the nomination of Clarence Thomas. Any and all criticism of the nominee is discounted as suspect racism and the woman trying to report reality is demonized with glee.”

  40. Rd—-that is so funny…yesterday there was one of them at NQ. Uppity Woman had this great “sweetie” post and this person carrie was so stupid in that comments part, oh my god. She said O couldn’t possibly be sexist because he had a wife and two daughters. She just kept repeating it over and over and over and over, until? Anyway, ReclusiveLeftist aka Violet has the best, great piece on the sweetie thang—–she and Uppity made my day!

    Here are those links so all of us who understand the sweetie part can “ahem” and laugh our you know what’s off.

    off reclusiveleftist.com:

    Blast from the past: Obama calls Sen. Barbara Boxer “a cutie” (Plus: update on how we can fight back)

    In the wake of sweetie-gate, someone emailed me this story from a year ago:

    Obama, speaking at the Westin St. Francis in San Francisco, raised eyebrows Monday at a fundraiser for Sen. Barbara Boxer when, as we reported, the Illinois Senator described his Democratic colleague from California as “a fighter, a leader, a charmer, a cutie.”

    The remark “set off a lot of murmuring,” said one Democratic strategist in attendance, “among a lot of very strong powerful women around Boxer there who were offended.”

    (I saved uppity, for last –this is the best and you will be laughing till you cry!–speaking as a sweetykins who worked in the male dominated corporate world forevah, and who like you had to grow that male portion o’ myself in order to combat, you know…And I voted in Boxer and Feinstein and all the rest of them strictly because they were women, and ummm somehow I can’t see Boxer, well, …………….! Nah. –too funny.

    ps: there is something very honorable to Hillary Clinton and all of us, now…over at http://www.clintondems.com — wow–finally a place–like that, wow–

    All women need to read uppity! OMG. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! (said while falling off chair and about to make pings o’matic…….


  41. I have a choice to vote “present” in November. That’s what I’ll do if I cannot vote for Hillary Clinton. In other words, Sweetie Cate, I’m not voting in the presidential race if I cannot vote for Hillary Clinton.

    Care much about the Democratic Party? Nope. They don’t care much about me, obviously; and I’m not one of those “selfless” women who can take a punch and keep on hugging the one who punched me.

    I’m officially still a Democrat. But I’m also officially a Clinton voter. And, if the DNC-Deaniacs can’t figure that out, then it’s going to be their problem.

    Florida and Michigan COUNT. Count the votes. It’s not a 50-state-strategy if we leave out Florida and Michigan Democrats.

  42. Melanie,

    I have gotten the impression that Harold Ford is a Hillary supporter. It would make sense, because he is head of the DLC. My guess is he thinks Hillary should be at the top of the ticket. I didn’t see the show though.

  43. I have a choice to vote “present” in November. That’s what I’ll do if I cannot vote for Hillary Clinton. In other words, Sweetie Cate, I’m not voting in the presidential race if I cannot vote for Hillary Clinton.

    Care much about the Democratic Party? Nope. They don’t care much about me, obviously; and I’m not one of those “selfless” women who can take a punch and keep on hugging the one who punched me.

    I’m officially still a Democrat. But I’m also officially a Clinton voter. And, if the DNC-Deaniacs can’t figure that out, then it’s going to be their problem.

    Florida and Michigan COUNT. Count the votes. It’s not a 50-state-strategy if we leave out Florida and Michigan Democrats.

  44. Edwardian: The difference is that the votes come from voters rather than Congress and we’re apparently gutsier than Congress is.

  45. The new meme is that: “responsible progressives will vote for Obama”.

    LOL! Responsible progressives wouldn’t have nominated him.

  46. i could never vote republican but i’m not going to hold the wheel while my party insists on going over a cliff. the worse obama loses, the more likely they’ll get the message. he wont have my vote

  47. Peggy Noonan is kind of like Ann Coulter only using the forces of smarm, faux-naive nicey-nice instead of direct confrontation and vicious insults? Noonan drives me up the wall.

    Yes, I’ve also gotten the feeling that Ford leans Hillary & probably wouldn’t want her to take the VP spot (neither would I).

  48. Rev. Wright coming up live on the TUCC website in a minute.

  49. bostonboomer,

    I don’t think so. I think Ford has always been an Obama guy. I have felt through this entire election Obama was the favorite choice of the DLC. Gooslebee is or was a senior fellow at the DLC. Ideologically Obama fits the DLC to a tee, although he’s technically not member. The DLC has not turn coated Hillary simply because of Bill’s historical relationship with the organization.

  50. I am impervious to sweeties.

    He will never get my vote.

  51. I have to ask.. Whatever Obama and his people are telling the SDs about new voter registration and plans to win in November.. I bet he’s got more very important spreadsheets detailing voting blocs, demographics, states, etc. to show the map and argue how he’d win in November. Yes?

    Has anyone stepped back to look at how the one leaked spreadsheet has matched against actual vote tallies since about when the Wright story broke? Because IMHO it’s not really that accuate, is it? He’s lost many states by greater margins than expected, lost Indiana, blown out in WV, bigger losses in OH and PA than they thought. They haven’t been too accurate about some of his wins either (NC, VA). I’m just saying his level of support seems a bit more.. unpredictable.

  52. oh riverdaughter – that is BRILLIANT! Thank you.

  53. Henry Dubb,

    I guess I could be wrong, but I have seen Harold Ford on both MSNBC (morning Joe) and Fox News being very critical of Obama and arguing that Hillary should stay in the race. If he comes out and says he’s for Obama, I’ll admit I’m wrong. But right now, I have to disagree with you.

  54. RD: one reason these “sweeties” don’t quite connect is that they probably ain’t real women. And just like Obama, they don’t listen.

    It’s not just that they’re ignorant, it’s that they’re ignorant but they think they know it all.

    Can’t you sense the metaphorical pats on your head when they post stuff?

    “Ooh, you’re so cute when you’re angry!”

    “Now that you got that out of your system, we’ll do it my way, because I know what’s best for you.”

    BTW – I wuz the “someone” who said that line about being assigned your own troll. 😉

  55. Sheesh, I’m so dumb. I fell for a “sweetie” post at DU. It’s been such a hatefest there that I totally bit on the “sweetie” bait.

    Never again!

  56. bostonboomer,

    Then I stand corrected. I certainly did not get the impression of him being pro-Hillary today.

  57. BB..I agree about Ford. He is at least not a Hillary hater. He was the only one that defended Hillary as the VP choice. He said “The worry about the Clinton and Clinton (Bill) on the ticket won’t matter if you don’t win in November”. The others on the panel flat out said he won’t pick her. One said she won’t bring him one single state he can’t win on his own. Talk about living in a dream world.

    The disrespect for her on that show just makes me more sure that I’m sitting out in November. I have never even considered doing that.

    Hillary…don’t say yes if he offers. Please don’t go down with that sinking ship.

  58. I read this in the chicago trib – last night & now today in wapo


    really depresses me .

  59. Wow Briana. They are hosting a fundraiser honoring Al Gore on the very day (May 31) they shaft Florida voters?

    How stupid. If Gore lets me down on this before the race is over, I will just be heartsick.

  60. Briana: It’s more of the same Haka. It may very well be the case that they are forced onto a joint ticket. But they are absolutely nuts if they think we’re going to settle for second.

  61. she won’t bring him one single state he can’t win on his own

    I think they live in a dream world as far as which states he can actually win..

  62. Great post, RD.

    I wonder how the naturally idealistic youth who are being sold a product via the Hope+Change(TM) ad campaign will feel when they get a little education about Chicago politics. Axelrod is Daley’s media consultant. The selling of Obama is so cynical.

    Obama is in the thick of it, although he was Rezko’s second choice after Gov. Blag. Obama’s moral integrity is zero in my opinion.

    Bill and Hillary never had any interest in money except 1) Hillary wanted to save enough money to send Chelsea to college (hence the Whitewater co-partnership with friend James McDougal who had NO association with any savings and loan at the time); and 2) to pay back the enormous lawyer bills that the relentless attacks upon them by the Gingrich (once Anna Huffington’s guru) Republican Party set forth, aided and abetted by our sorry excuse for a national press and the corporate-controlled TV stations. Tax payers were forced to cough up billions for these trumped up chargers. Meanwhile, it takes a Patrick Fitzgerald to snag a Rezko.

    These are the very same TV stations that made Shrub a contender and trashed Gore and Kerry. They also ignored the affairs that Bush 41 had but were beside themselves with anything they could dig up on Bill Clinton. A woman at a Kerry volunteer event told me that a friend of hers who worked at ABC quit because of this double-standard. Bush 41 was off limits, Clinton was center target.

    These stations exist to sell you a profit and make a profit for the few corporations that own them. As for NBC and MSNBC (General Electric) vote with your remote. DO NOT CONTRIBUTE TO THEIR BOTTOM LINE.

    All of the hatred directed against the Clintons by the Republicans was aimed at one target, the raison d’etre for Hillary–stopping health care of all Americans. If that were given to the people by virtue of the Clinton presidency, the Democratic Party would be riding on a wave of popularity unprecedented since Daddy Roosevelt. It would truly be considered the people’s party, and have votes that could stop the corporate domination of all aspects of American life. Even though the Clintons practiced a middle way, their objective in the early 90s was far more progressive than Obama has ever considered.

    Having Time-Warner oust Ted Turner removed one of the few stations that really had some news, now it is a scandal sheet in motion.

    The media really needs to be broken up and turned back to the people. If the voters during this election can figure out as much about Obama as we can, without been spoon fed Obama syrup by the mainstream media, maybe there is hope….but then there is also the Daily Obama…oh, well…

  63. errata

    “trumped-up charges” and “These stations exist to sell you a product”

  64. Yeah daria, they are dreaming. He can’t win unless McCain does something really stupid. Even then, I think he’ll lose.

    If it wasn’t so sad, it would be kind of funny to watch it happen. I think it is all about money now and they are trying to control all of it, not just their own.

  65. Thanks vbonnaire. Uppity’s post was great. Loved the picture of the typical blogger boy with the red roses.

  66. CB: The Clintons worked hard for their millions and they deserve all the wealth that is coming their way right now. No need to defend it.

  67. tabby: It *is* funny. It’s absurd. Even Cokie “Tokyo Rose” Roberts is starting to realize the train wreck that is rapidly approaching. When even Cokie is gobstopped we have reached a tipping point.

  68. What is even more demoralizing is that they just don’t get it. The thinking is that the voter, so tired of the Bush Admin and a possibility of a third term with McCain, will just forget the squalidness of this primary and suck it up. What is even more demoralizing is that they spent a whole week on something as trivial as Tuzla but have yet to give any serious reporting to Obama and the Chicago syndicate. It is almost as if they just don’t care.

    Somehow, and I know I sound nuts at times, there is something nefarious at stake. Could anyone imagine what the reaction would be if one of Hillary’s staff was talking directly to a Hamas leader? The press would be all over it for days and she would be branded. He, on the other hand, announces the resignation of said staff member and the press backs off. It is astounding the double standard of reporting.

    And to treat us as if we were whiny little girls who need to be “seduced” by the Sweeties making their way onto this blog and others to tempt us with visions of Roe v Wade is simply astonishing. What level of intellect, sensitivity, and strategy are we dealing with here?

  69. Gosh I’m late to the Confluencer Sunday Brunch!

    RIVERDAUGHTER – another home run with this article!

    Thank you & Confluence team for giving us “pragmatists” a home.

    R.A.T.s – go back to your holes. The Orkin man is in the house and you are going DOWN.

    We beleive in DEMOCRACY. Every vote needs to be counted before a nominee is called.

    How can they justify what The DNC & ObamaRATs are doing to Hillary? To me, we are reliving what was done to Gore.

    We are not that stupid or obedient to let that happen again?


  70. NQ has a clip up of McLaughlin Group:


    As others have said, I know the world has turned upside-down when I agree with Pat B and McL. One of Pat’s best lines was something like “the worst thing that could happen is that (Hillary) wins the popular vote and (Barack) wins the nomination.” [Worst, of course, for Dems. What in the world has happened to Eleanor Clift??? I just don’t get it.

    Katiebird: this is really late and o/t, but I loved hearing you on the conference call! Hillary was inspiring and you were terrific. Great comments re: Chelsea, positive things to work with. You have such a kind, warm voice!

  71. Pat, I agree — one of the biggest issues to come out of this mess, and one of the biggies that hardened my position, was the corporate media bias. It has been ridiculous and unforgivable, and heck, progressive have been talking for years about corporate media consolidation as an enemy to civic discourse. Now, all of a sudden, when the big money media corps are deciding our primaries, it doesn’t matter? Shouldn’t that be the biggest red flag in the world?

    I’ve seen this mire characterized as a fight for the soul of the Democratic party, and I understand that characterization. What do we stand for? The fundamental issues are getting bigger and bigger, and I think that’s part of the reason why the “sweetie” hit and run Obama operatives are so transparent and pathetic. We know the issues at stake. We understand the long-term implications of conforming to Brand Obama.

    And oh my, if he does indeed declare himself king before FL and MI are decided, on the heels of a huge KY thumping… will that ever backfire. I would ask how Obama Inc. can be so tone deaf, but clearly, it’s because O Inc. feels entitled. And, increasingly desperate. Onwards — we’ll see how this plays out.

  72. I never thought I’d see the day when I’d find mysekf actually agreeing with Pat Robertson.

    I’m actually looking forward to Obama declaring himself victor on 5/20.

    There will be a roar louder than a sonic boom, and it won’t be from giddy ObamaRATs.

    It’ll be from us.

  73. It seems like the sweeties think raising McCain as a boogeyman is a winning argument that trumps all the unfairness and impropriety in this primary campaign.

    They have pretty much given up on persuading us that Obama is better than Hillary.

    Actually, they never really tried to change our minds, other than screaming “Hillary is EVIL!” and acting confused when we didn’t agree.

  74. The sweetie treatment is part and parcel of the shame tactic that the Obama campaign uses over and over. It works on children, weak personalities, people who have something to be ashamed of, and those who are professional supporters of “others” than themselves. They have not figured out that it gets old really fast and pisses people off even more. I hope they keep doing it. The Republicans will make great sport of all of them. So should we. Let’s make fun of them.

  75. Alice, I just do not see him as desperate. He is somehow of the persuasion that this is his for the asking. That he is merely biding his time for the next few days and will then announce that the race is over. Anyone who had any fear of backlash would adopt a more humble mantle. Not him.

    My thinking is that I believe he has the supers in his pocket. That even if this goes to the floor the threat of turning lose the AAs will abort any consideration for her. The Dem Party, champion of minority rights, will not want to be portrayed as the party who “denied” this black man the nomination. So she can tally up as much as she wants by way of the popular vote, I firmly believe, (and I firmly want to be proven 100% wrong), that this is what they have been doing behind the scenes. The DNC, the Obama staff, the MSM, and those monied contributors have turned this into a travesty.

    My hope is that Hillary, should this happen, plants the seed for a third party run. There are many who will be onboard.

  76. If Cokie “gets it” perhaps others are catching on too. Maybe the
    tipping point really is at hand.

    The more I listen to other supporters of Hillary, the more convinced I am that Obama can not win us over. If he is pushed on us as the nominee, we’ll reject him.

    As Cokie aptly wrote “And they only have themselves to blame.”

  77. Question: How will Obama’s 5/20 declaration affect Puerto Rico? Would it increase or depress turnout? Will it not change anything?

    Just wanting people’s thoughts and/or if you have any insights to Puerto Rican political culture.

  78. Quick post before I head out door. Within that noquarter post embedding the McClaughlin group, there was a link to correntewire post about electability.

    See http://www.correntewire.com/clinton_election_juggernaut_accelerates_0

    Author opined that Dean, Pelosi and Reid wanted to wait until June before making announcements. The author states their alleged reluctance stems from a poll conducted by a Dean guy outlining Obama’s electability problems.

    I don’t see Dean being that smart as to wait (which probably explains Donna Brazile’s problem). But other folks here know him better. What do you think? If so how will Tuesday night victory announcement play out?

    (Frankly, I expect to see Dean/Pelosi standing there with Obama (but not Reid).

  79. Correction: Brazile’s smile

  80. myiq2xu, there are several bogeymans, it’s either the:

    1) Roe vs. Wade/women rights (the irony in this arguement is just precious, since women’s rights are being violated with every comment made about Hillary is pure vitriol)

    2) McCain & 100 years in Iraq (gues that went out the window since he’s even calling for troop withdrawal by 2013).

    3) Be “good” democrats (last time I checked, “good” Democrat means equality/faireness for all, let the people’s voices be heard by counting every vote, but that’s just me)

    4) You can’t get in the way of “history in the making” (shi&t, what about the first woman prez, isn’t THAT history too?)

    On & on & on….

    Pat, I’m with you on the third party – Hillary should definitely run as an Independent. There are millions that will jump on board to vote for her!

  81. Obama and his supporter are more intent on the battle instead of the war.

    The support that Hillary Clinton is getting, is from the voters. The voters who count in the general election.

    Senator Obama has done nothing but run away since PA.
    He no loner debates since that disaster
    He no longer has Town Hall meetings since his gaffes
    He no longer goes to states with ” those white people” and it is Fox’s fault

    He has conceded Appalachian states, he has blocked FL & MI, He thinks he can win in Ohio..not a snow balls chance. He might eek out PA, but a 70/30 split in all but the five counties he won is going to be difficult. He has not managed to get the Latino vote despite 15 months of campaigning. He has managed to tick off blue collar workers, people without a secondary education and women.

    He used to have a 50 or 57 state strategy which has shrunk starting by giving up parts of the electorate, then it was an entire state, WV, and now it is entire regions of the country.

    If this continues, the only state Senator Obama is going to win in the general election is the state of Denial .

  82. Don’t look to Nancy Pelosi to announce for Hillary. She considers herself to be the “most important woman in politics” and does not like to share the stage. If Hillary were to win that would place Nancy in a second tie position, a place she does not with to hold. As for Dean, his association with Donna B tells us where he will come down. Reid is a Hillary supporter.

    If they make a big hoopla with him on Tuesday there is going to be hell to pay. This primary is not over no matter how well they have stacked the deck.


    Let them make complete and total fool of themselves.

    Let them add gasoline to the “NO VOTE FOR OBAMA” fire that’s slowly growing.

    If they do that – it’s all out war for May 31st.

    There’s a new group called FDR, Florida Demands Representation that formed, there’s Operation Turndown, theres the group that was on O’Reilly, TRUST ME, there’s going to be a roar so loud, they won’t be able to ignore us.

  84. Awesome post Riverdaughter! Glad to see you’ve got your wits about you and aren’t charmed by the new Obama charm offensive. Even if it were done competently (your breakdown of “cate’s” message to you was hilarious), I’m sure you could resist the Borg.

  85. SM: It’s all part of the “Oh noez! Here comes McCain” shtick. Roe v. Wade, Iraq, “be good” etc.

    The sweeties like to mention Roe v. Wade cuz someone told them wimmun care about that.

    “Mention reproductive rights, chicks care about that stuff. And tell them they smell nice and say you like their hair.”

  86. WS, I read El Nuevo Dia & Primera Hora as habit from living there a couple of years ago.

    People aren’t having Obama. Michelle Obama’s trip there was lackluster at most. Normally, there’s a big caravan & parade for visiting VIPs, and it’s not gov’t planned, it’s just the people show up at the airport & follow the VIP araound.

    Chelsea had caravans all the time during here stay there, a parade in Viejo San Juan, beach caravan in Vieques, the works. People showed up by the thousands in their cars, beeping horns, music blaring following chelsea around.

    Michelle Obama. NONE.

    My friend in Yabucoa (a small town in the SE corner) said to me that local polls are favoring Hillary by 70% to Obama at 30%, so far.

    Hillary has done A LOT for the Latino community. We have more representation in the House of Reps, and other prominent positions thanks to her support & endorsements.

    NewYorican community in NYC are 1000% behnd Hillary, and there is some influence there too.

  87. My dear toothless Conflucians. Time to put our bitterness aside. Obama loves us and from now on his followers will be nice to us.


  88. SM, thats comforting news. Puerto Rico needs to come out big for Hillary.

  89. myiq2xu, Yes! Just show that you care about what they say, and never forget to tell them you love you mom a whole bunch and call her every Sunday.”

    PS: Props to your posts on CorrenteWire, and your hair smells nice, oh wait… your smells look nice… did I tell you that I call my mom every Sunday?

  90. Puerto Ricans WILL deliver a victory for Hillary.

  91. hlr, on May 18th, 2008 at 11:34 am said:

    What this means overall is a more conservative Dem party. Those seats are almost always held by pro-life, anti-gay, bible-quoting types…

    In other words, Republicans, the new Democrats in name only? The name should be changed to the Trojan Horse Party.

  92. Ann, try this:

  93. myiq, dude, you are funny.

    RD, nicely done, my friend. Nicely done. I guess Confluence has hit the big time with all the R.A.T. squeaking going on. So, does this make Sen. Obama Willard? Or is Axelrod Willard?

    (1970s film reference, check google for details.)

    Those first compare-a-R.A.T. posts remain deeply funny to me. Did you ever contact the orignal dumbass R.A.T. and tell her how she was such a sweetie for contributing to your hit counter? Would you like me to write the email for you? I would use all the swear words and even invent a couple.

    Does anyone else pick up a weird grating condescending sweetie tone in every post? Of someone trying really hard to keep his/her temper and not hit you over the head with a shovel?

  94. I’ve been lurking here for the longest, and love this site. It has been mentioned previously that sending ripped up voter registrations back to the DNC as a protest and re-registering as Independent might be effective. What if there were public events in county seats and state capitols, with Democrats burning their voter registration cards and then going to register with a different status? It would give a visual impact to protesting that might be more powerful.

  95. This is so true, that chart is perfect! I have been abused and run over so much by Obamatrons on DU – oh excuse me OBAMA UNDERGROUND – that I left months ago. I have a Hillary Yahoogroup, and now we have:


    where you can be listed as a ‘Democrat Against Obama’

    Just started, but we are starting up local chapters, and will have a forum.

    Kudos, this is just fantastic, wil pass on to my members!

  96. Can the forces that be rescue one of my latest posts?

  97. riverdaughter – Thank you for the excellent analysis. I wondered why the sweetees sounded so affectless. I notice they avoid contractions: “I am” and not “I’m.”

    Probably paid by the word, eh?

    Michelle looked very unhappy when she was campaigning in Puerto Rico. She was wearing a bizarre blouse with huge ruffles up the front. She looked as it she were wearing a costume and she didn’t like it.

  98. Thanks 😉 I promise to be good from now on.

  99. Ms. Marple, that doesn’t have to happen because HIllary is going to be the nominee.

  100. Ohio: LOL! So true. They can barely disguise their contempt for us. Here they are, taking precious time out of their day between teaching seminars in Women’s Studies to write a shmoozy trolly post to a bunch of inbred ingrates. She probably has to go wash her hands after touching the keyboards. God, what she has to do for the party. But it will all be worth it in the end when Obama triumphs and ushers in a new era of Democracy. Then we’ll be so grateful that she took the time to do all of the dirty work on our behalf, not like she expects any thank you notes from us. I mean, we can barely read.

  101. Upstate: I have no idea how you ended up in the spam filter. There were other worthy commenters as well. Don’t take it personally.

  102. I actually thought Michelle looked pretty in that blouse. Now don’t accuse me of being a troll, please? But I think we should try to rise above that kind of thing. Please don’t accuse me of being a troll.

  103. Zelda: She can look pretty and still be an unpleasant person with a chip on her shoulder. That doesn’t make you a troll.

  104. RD, fucking A, you kill me. The Saruman thing was hysterical.

    So for the coronating, I’m thinking we need a nice graphic of Sen. Obama with a lovely tinfoil crown. Tagline: “I deign to reign.”

  105. I like the blouse. Carolina Herrera? Not wild about the belt, I think maybe a simpler one would have been better, but all in all nice outfit and not an easy style to wear, she pulls it off very well. I only wish I could say much good about her speeches, but her wardrobe is pretty great IMHO.

  106. I like to discuss clothing. Michelle Obama is in the public eye, and what she wears is part of the Obama marketing package. I noticed that earlier in the campaign, she wore clothes that were similar to those worn by Jackie Kennedy. I’m sure that was deliberate.

    Maybe this is not the place for this type of dicussion. My point is that I’m not being catty about what Michelle wears.

    I’m interested in body image/self esteem issues. Michelle seems as if she’s uncomfortable in her public role. I find her a tragic figure.

  107. Ohio: Wouldn’t a tinfoil tiara be more appropriate?

    And it should be titled “The Presumptuous Nominee”

  108. Arabella: Like her or not, Michelle is a strong woman who accomplished a lot on her own before she ever met Barack. In most election years she would be a feminist icon.

    But her husband’s campaign has made an issue of denigrating Hillary’s time as First Lady (“White House Hostess”) so if he wins she can look forward to the same treatment.

    IOW – She won’t be “Michelle Obama,” she’ll be “Mrs. Barack Obama”

    I’d be pissed too.

  109. Okay, I have no idea where the smiley face came from.

  110. myiq2xu: The smiley came from you using the ; and – and ) in close proximity. as in 😉

  111. Peronally, I found Michelle’s blouse offensive. Like all Latinos wear ruffled mambo shirts so she wanted to “blend” in. That was my take on it.

    The blouse was too “cocktail time” for a daytime visit.

    The belt was hideous, the skirt pattern clashed with the blouse.

    What would have been nice is a simple white or grey blouse short or mid-length sleeves with the skirt, sans hideous belt.

    Her hair wasn’t looking its best as it normally does given the humidity down there, so I’ll give her that. PR is smouldering humid.

    But the blouse? Eck. For her first visit, she should have gone more conservatively dressed.

  112. RD: all I used was the “end parentheses” character after the “end quote”

    It wuz magic!

  113. Thank you, RD. And I’ll see your “unpleasant person with a chip on her shoulder” and raise you one angry hateful bitch on wheels.

    I have eclectic taste and all my life people have been telling me what I should wear. I don’t like it and I think basically everyone should wear what they want to wear and not be judged by it.

    I too loved the Saruman thing. And from the first time I saw B.O. speak on a YouTube video, I’ve thought of Saruman and Gandalf’s warning to his party “Don’t listen to him.”

  114. Ms Marple, protesting by burning or ripping voter registration cards could work especially if you live in Florida or Michigan (or just to protest how those states were treated without any solutions brought forward by the DNC to fix it). Once Hillary becomes the nominee, we can switch back!

  115. EDIT: Ms Marple, on second thought, protesting by burning or ripping up voter registration cards and sending the remnants to the DNC could work especially if you live in Florida or Michigan (or just to protest how those states were treated without any solutions brought forward by the DNC to fix it). Once Hillary becomes the nominee, we can switch back!

  116. myiq2xu – I agree with you to a certain extent. I think Michelle was out of her depth at Princeton and she still has resentments as a result. Her thesis is painful to read. She grew up with an athletic older brother who was worshipped by her parents. I don’t think she got the attention she deserved. She’s not ready for the stresses of campaigning and public life. She is way more stronger than her husband. He could not have gotten to where he is now without her.

  117. Dearest Arabella, ditto the above. Depthwise. The thesis does however set her up for Wright, doesn’t it? As in her next 20 years. Her core belief systems were formed by the time that thesis was written, perhaps even before, and her brand of centrism is not a good fit for the Democratic Party as we have known it. Nor Brazile’s.

  118. Arabella, your comment on Michelle that “He could not have gotten to where he is now without her.” is accurate, I think, because her father was a precinct captain in Chicago, which made him very powerful in Chicago infighting politics. She absorbed techniques for winning elections with her pablum.

  119. All that are thinking of not voting in the GE if Hillary isn’t the nominee, should consider writing in Hillary instead. Send a clear message to the DNC that those that support Hillary won’t be swayed by their despicable tactics of discounting FL and MI.

    As far as changing parties, I changed to Independent back in December because of what the DNC did to FL and MI., though I still voted for Hillary in our primary. Don’t watch CNN or MSNBC, you’ll only be helping them in their Obama agenda and condoning their sexist media coverage.

    Great site here, glad to see so many who feel the same about what’s been going on in the media and the double standard with Hillary Clinton, as well as not letting the party or the media spoon feed Obama to us.

  120. Peggie Noonan is the genius author of the famous tagline, during the Clinton impeachment saga: “It would be irresponsible not to speculate…” thus opening the door to countless speculations about the Bush administration, most of which turned out to be true, except not scary enough.

  121. I think it should be “sweeteez” with a Z, like the “Boiz…”

  122. Wow a liberal who talks sense! Thank you!

    McCain ’08

  123. “We’re not buying the hopey-changey unity shtick”

    Thanks for the quote of the day. Great line!

  124. Another vote against putting Clinton on the ticket as VP!

  125. some of you folks might not like this but in my opinion the best way to vindicate Hillary and ourselves is to help elect McCain in the Fall. I live in Ohio, which I think the Obama campaign is going to write off, and most of the people i know who voted for Hillary are unquestionably going for McCain. If it were Romney or Huckabee probably not. But McCain is making himself acceptable on some odd level.

  126. Very funny and very true.

    Many of those exact things were said to me at Huffington Post. It was pretty much the same script except that they also accused me of working for Rush Limbaugh. Then the blog banned me, and erased all of my comments.

    Today the Obama campaign — and the extremely hypocritical Arianna — are trying to make nice with Hillary, in an attempt to get her supporters to cross over to Obama. That will not work for some of us — including me — particularly since Obama did nothing to stop the abuse of Hillary supporters when it was at its peak.

  127. Even with MI and FL counted Obama wins more pledged delegates. With the caucus vote estimates included he’s got more popular vote even not granting him any of MI uncomiitted voters. He’s overcome an enormous institutional advantage Hillary Clinton has enjoyed based on her and her husband’s time in the White House. He is consolidating the support of the Democratic Party superdelegates who were long hesitant to endorse him. How is he not the nominee, fair and square?

    I understand many of you resent Obama his victory and think he accomplished it unfairly, but I rarely see how that happened. Both Democrats have accomplished a great deal but one managed to achieve a little bit more.

    This chart you’ve made to mock Obama supporters for beginning to try to convince Senator Clinton’s supporters to join him over the next six months if he’s the nominee is amusing, but don’t you think that Senator Clinton’s supporters would be going through the exact same feelings if she were currently in the lead?

    Obviously feelings have been hurt over this campaign, and right now Obama supporters are pumped because he’s done so well and people who’ve been working with his campaign feel incredibly empowered. That doesn’t mean we all want to dump on Clinton supporters, and it doesn’t mean we don’t want and realize we need your help to put a Democrat in the White House in November.

  128. Huffpost is trying to make nice today. Too late Zsa Zsa.

  129. Yikes, as an Obama supporter – not a mindless “sweetie” thank you very much – it’s incredibly disheartening to read the comments here. There were many times in the heat of the campaign when I vowed that I wouldn’t vote for Hillary if she became the nominee. But the reality is, if she had gotten it (or does still get it) I would’ve held my nose and pulled the lever for her – no matter how many things she did during the campaign that I didn’t approve of. It is nothing short of selfish to do otherwise – not just because of Roe Vs. Wade, but because of the G.I. bill that McCain won’t support, our failing economy and oh yeah that war with Iraq that he will surely instigate. This is too big an election to launch a protest vote. I completely understand why you feel angry with the media. Believe me, we Obama supporters weren’t loving the media so much during the wall to wall coverage of Rev. Wright for a month straight either! But I really hope that people reading will do what’s best on behalf of the country and mobilize against the real bad guys once the sting of all of this wears off.

  130. It’s not just the media I’m angry with, believe me.

  131. “But I really hope that people reading will do what’s best on behalf of the country and mobilize against the real bad guys once the sting of all of this wears off.”

    Who’s to say who the real bad guys actually are? People who agree to silence opposition by censoring it? People who make promises they plan to “revisit” once they are elected? People who are forced by the religious right to enunciate promises they can easily abandon?

    Huffington’s valentine to Clinton is too late; the greed for her supporters is crudely transparent — those who don’t acquiesce get cut off at the knees. Timeo Daneos et dona ferentes.

  132. Wow, did a blog full of rude people link here or what?

  133. Not directed at you bauersox.

  134. Marjorajam, if the shoe fits.. (Seriously who linked us, what with the sudden influx of hostility.)

  135. Let’s be honest – there is not a whole lot of difference between Barack and Hillary policy wise. I’ve personally been for Barack but I have friends (and my girlfriend) that are for Hillary. Unless you live in a bubble, you know there are plenty of rational and smart people supporting both candidates for good reasons and making rationalizations to ditch the party if your candidate doesn’t win is childish.

    Hillary and Barack both want to bring the same things to the US, the difference is mainly in style and approach. I know they will go on fighting together for the good of the people after the primary season is over, regardless of who ends up getting the nod.

    This is why a drawn out, negative nomination fights are dangerous, when people can become blind to the fact that both their candidates are very similar and neither is the devil incarnate.

  136. This was linked to from Ben Smith’s blog at Politico.

    This blog didn’t allow me to submit a comment with the source link. That may be where some of the rude people are coming from.

  137. How exactly would you diagram yourself? I’d like to see some honest introspection.

    Your anger is misplaced.

  138. Of course Obama supporters are appealing to Clinton supporters for the general in the event that Obama is successful in securing the nomination, just as Clinton supporters would want and need to appeal to Obama supporters. This is a bitter primary contest, nasty things have been said on all sides in the blogosphere, and there’s a process where people will decide whether their anger about the campaign will allow them to support the opposing primary candidate in November.

    There’s no hypocrisy at all here. The same people who wrote all kinds of shit about Obama supporters would be asking for their money and time and still could be if this turns out differently then expected. Its the game.

  139. Therein lies the crux of the problem. Since the game is about the delegates and always has been about the delegates, but Clinton spun it into it’s about this, no this, no this, her supporters feel cheated.

  140. So anyone who disagrees with you or your posts is automatically a troll?

    How is anyone supposed to have a meaningful conversation in this country when we only talk AT each other and never WITH each other?

  141. I find it funny that folks complaining of censorship would censor out comments that were not in particular rude. I stated my contention that selfish dedication to a single ideal above all else was a hindrance to progress. The idea being that refusing to accept one good because it is not the specific version you wanted is counterproductive.

    I was really just trying to ignore the tone of a “sweetie” you pillory above. I dont want you to think i am trying to trick you with some corp-speak tricks. Mostly, I wanted you to think about the fact that Obama supporters DO feel the way you describe above. Think about why we might feel that way. Is it because we are misogynist, died-in-the-wool crazies? or is it perhaps that your blend of “pragmatism” if thats what you want to call it, is not really as obvious as you think.

    Both parties belittle each other. Clearly you are intelligent (you do write well), and clearly you have reasons to believe what you do. But is getting 100% of what you want worth sacrificing 80%? If you think Hillary is the only one who can beat McCain, is it worth making that self fulfilling by voting for him?

    if you do, i guess there really isn’t any room for discussion. Its a good thing there are more republicans willing to vote for Barack than the other way around.

  142. bauersox – are you really asking who the real bad guys are? are you really saying that the policy differences between both dems and mccain don’t mean anything to you? there is no substantial policy divide between the hillary and barack – and on the other side you have a crazy old hawk who wants to nuke iran, start a draft and screw us out of universal health care. i get that you guys here are upset and agree that sexism, like racism, played an unfortunate and large role in this campaign (though frankly, the fact that several commenters here spent time playing fashion police to michelle obamas outfit strikes me as just a touch hypocritical.)

  143. I am ready to “girlcott” the election if Obama is not on the ticket. Yey!

  144. These sweeties are clueless.

  145. You mean, you are going to girlcott the election if Hillary is not on the ticket. I agree. No Hillary, no vote!

  146. RD: Please don’t delete this trash talk right away, I want to see how good these sweeties are at seduction.

  147. You make a great analysis of us, Obama supporters. Some of it quite true and very impressive. But I don’t get why you would want to have Hillary as your president … what is so special about her that makes you want to leave the Democratic party unless she is nominated? She is just another politician, isn’t she? If she has some special qualities please let us know.

    Obama on the other hand, is winning with his paper thin resume against the greatest political machine in the Dem party because he is truly special. I’m not saying that he has supernatural powers or sth like that, rather he possesses a combination of courage, humility, truthfulness and brilliance. Read his book and you will understand why I say what I say.

    Finally, it is not because he is half-black or half-white that I am supporting him to be president, it is because I know he will work to not only better the lives of Americans here but also help the billions of people all over the world who are desperate for a world leader that will lead in eradicating poverty, conflicts, global warming, etc. Think about it, he lived in Indonesia; his father was from Kenya; he has seen the world not as a visiting aristocrat, but as one of them living their lives and our lives. A single mother raised him with help from her father, who fought in WW II, and mother who worked in the bomb assembling plants. He has the values of those small town Kansans as well as the knowledge of the values in Indonesia, Kenya, etc.

    For people like you, who probably has never been in any other country, except may be Central American vacation spots, people hate America because we are so free and democratic and all that other junk, but they hate us for our double standards and hypocrisies. And I believe Barack will gain us back the respect we lost in the past 8 years.

    Obama / Clark 08!!

  148. Candypoem: Wow…I bet the women who worked so hard to get you that vote would be so proud.

  149. Tom W: We don’t censor. We selectively prune. Censorship would be a problem if you had nowhere else to go to post your comment. This is not the case. There is a huge political blogosphere where you can comment.
    As for Obama vs. Clinton, it has nothing to do with the specificity of the candidate. It has everything to do with readiness and maturity. Obama has neither.
    Consider our votes protest votes. We are protesting the working class, women, hispanics, asians, seniors, Appalachians, GBLT, etc, getting shunted aside by the new smaller and lighter coalition that has flattered itself as “creative class” while it lectures us traditional Democrats as racists. If we go down, we’re going to take the mew coalition and the rest of the party with us.

  150. First of all, I am an Obama supporter. There, its out there. But lets play a little game. Let’s say the superdelegates gives Senator Clinton the nomination. Guess who Senator Clinton will NEED if she wants to win? The Obama supporters. That is the truth. Both candidates will need the other’s supporters if they want to win the Presidency. So what good does it do swear off helping the other if there is still a chance that your candidate could win it?

    Also, lets say Obama gets nominated and, as Clinton supporters say, he doesn’t win in November. If Obama supporters believe it is because of Clinton and her supporters, she will have no chance in 2012.

    We need to come together or the only winners is the Republicans. Women lose. Blacks lose. The youth lose. The seniors lose. The blue-collars lose. The uninsured lose. The under-insured lose. We all need to come together so that our ideas win.

  151. RD: Nevermind, I think I’m gonna puke.

    Rachel, Andrew, Majorjam, Caroline and Dan were the absolute worst trolls I’ve ever seen here.

  152. And just another note: I don’t come here to seduce. y’all are a bit past rationality in this corner. I mean, even your candidate doesnt agree with you (see: every time she is asked the question).

    I come here because it is fun. I come here because I enjoy arguing. And most of all, I come because I am bored at work.

    I will say i was impressed with the scale above.

    Folks, I will say that hillary clinton is an amazing candidate, and in any other year she has my vote, my dollars, and my volunteering time. By no means do i diminish her when i say i prefer him. But I do appreciate that saying nice things (which i mean) like that wont work with most of this audience. (like folks who get kicked off of HuffPo for saying offensive things, then whine about censorship here, and then censor folks)

    so o

  153. If Dodd or Biden, for instance, were still hanging in the race while being mathematically eliminated and out of money, yet still claiming that he was going to be the nominee, he would face exactly the same derision and pressure to quit as Clinton is. Actually, it would be likely be more intense, because those deriding him wouldn’t have to worry about being branded sexists.

    What we’re dealing with here is a candidate who has said and done everything to win the primary, isn’t winning, and is disgracing herself in the process.

    How any Democrat can support a candidate who’s run through a half-dozen personae in the campaign (from experienced elder stateswoman and party insider to populist blue collar mama); who’s engaged in gross pandering (the gas tax holiday); who’s disingenuously claimed that she doesn’t listen to expert opinion because it’s “elitist”; and who’s engaged in flagrant racial divisiveness, is beyond me.

    When Republicans play the “elitist” card and engage in crass pocketbook pandering, never mind stoop to racial divisiveness, we all cry foul.

    Well, many of us — in fact, enough to defeat Clinton in the primary — have cried foul when one of our own has done it.

    With all the shouting about race and gender in this campaign, one thing that’s receded from view for a lot of people is just what a lousy campaign Clinton has run. Dishonest, disingenuous, arrogant, and cringe-worthy describe it best. This was her race to lose, and she lost it. After witnessing her conduct during the campaign my respect for her has plummeted.

    If you’re looking for real reasons why she’s losing, you should start with some of the above.

  154. myiq2xu: I agree, although I really like Tom W. Dan too until he assumed that I’d never been anywhere but Cancun. I guess it would come as a shock to tell him I go to France on business trips every year and I’ve traveled extensively in Europe.

  155. Tim MC: So you’ll join us in supporting Hillary?

    Cuz that’s the only way we unify.

  156. I could take 5 minutes in MS Powerpoint, draw a pie chart, put some fill colors in, and fill it in with hateful, broad generalizations about the “Clintonistas,” and their attitudes/feelings, but I won’t waste anyone’s time.

    It does nothing but fuel the divide between those who strongly support one candidate over the other. There is no constructive outcome on either side of the fence. Take a look and try to objectively read some of the responses to the post.

    Chances are that Sen. Clinton will not be one of the options come November. If that’s the case, I still believe that every citizen has the duty to show up on election day, and cast a ballot for the person that they believe is the best candidate on the ballot, regardless of party affiliation. If you legitimately feel that McCain is the better candidate, fine. If your support for McCain is based purely on spite, do all of us a favor and stay home.

    I will be disappointed if Sen Clinton does not receive the nomination. However, based on the issues, there’s no way that I can support Sen McCain, even given Sen Obama’s lack of experience.

  157. riverdaughter:

    that was a well articulated statement of your intentions. I would say my point is that protest voting doesnt help your cause. My folks worked on civil rights, and one night their office was vandalized. not by the Klan, by the Panthers. Sometimes, moderation is the only way we can move forward. The clinton’s practically invented this game: triangulation. Sacrifice something you want so you can get something you need.

    However i do appreciate your point, and will leave y’all to your musings.

  158. Dan: Read his book …


    For people like you, who probably has never been in any other country, except may be Central American vacation spots

    See, this is the reason most of us are dumping Democrats. To get rid of people like you.

  159. awww thanks riverdaughter! have a good day folks. I hope y’all simmer and change your minds, but if you dont, hey, its a democracy.

    do what you gotta do!

  160. Mike: However, based on the issues, there’s no way that I can support Sen McCain, even given Sen Obama’s lack of experience.

    But Kerry and Daschle begged McCain to run as VP w/ the Dems. Why should we pick the no experience guy now?

  161. Why don’t you support a third party candidate then … better yet, how ’bout you start a petition for Hillary’s running as an independent, since she obviously doesn’t need the Dem party.

    I will tell you this though, don’t think by damaging Obama using female resentment will get your candidate elected in 2012 … HRC should have run in 2004. She lost her chance then. It’s over. So, get over it.

  162. “For people like you, who probably has never been in any other country, except may be Central American vacation spots”

    I took a vacation to Germany. It lasted 2 1/2 years.

  163. These putzes suck at sweet talk.

  164. Now it’s gonna smell like troll in here for hours.

  165. sorry riverdaughter. i get this is your blog but you do not speak for “working class, women, hispanics, asians, seniors, Appalachians, GBLT.” and neither does hillary! just in case you forgot: the clintons crippled welfare, ushered in nafta and crafted “don’t ask don’t tell” which dictated gblt policy for the last 15 years. but clearly you and your peeps here don’t want to listen to reason and just want to write me off as a sweetie. frankly it’s stubborn, entitled arrogance that lost the election for your candidate.

  166. Tom W.: There is something unsavory in the Democratic party right now. It seems hell bent on acquiring power to shape things in its own ideological image. But it is using the tools of some very nasty people to get the job done. As one of our friends said today, if the primary election process is allowed to stand, the US will lose its moral authority to lecture others on their electoral irregularities. There is a price to be paid for failing to even pretend that you are adhering to Democratic principles. And if it takes a purge to root it out, so be it.

  167. myiq2xu: These putzes suck at sweet talk.

    No kidding. BO needs to hire a new crew.

  168. Dan: You’re going to eat those words. We are not going to get over it. We are going to teach you a lesson you will never forget. It has to do with math where African Americans make up 13% of the American population and women make up more than 50%.
    Even now the boys in the party are starting to get a little nervous over what might happen. They have no idea.

  169. You women need to start talking with the lips attached to your head and not the ones to your cunts. Because right now, none of you hysterical bitches make any sense whatsoever.

    Buh-bye Dems.

  170. myiq2xu, yes, I would. But if that happens, there would be many Obama supporters who would feel like it was stolen from their preferred candidate. What would you do to make them come back and support Clinton? Also, what would you say to them if they asked “why should we support Clinton when her supporters said that they wouldn’t support Obama?”

  171. Vote for McCain: That’s right. That’s exactly what I want. I’m a Republican

    Naah. Republicans are more polite than what you’re serving up. You’re an Obamabot.

  172. “the darkies”
    you’re disgusting and pathetic.

  173. Tim mc: Cuz there are more of us than there are of you.

    Majorjam: Pumpkin latte? Anyway, we don’t appreciate racist language here.

  174. Tim Mc myiq2xu, yes, I would. But if that happens, there would be many Obama supporters who would feel like it was stolen from their preferred candidate. What would you do to make them come back and support Clinton? Also, what would you say to them if they asked “why should we support Clinton when her supporters said that they wouldn’t support Obama?”

    Finally someone making a little sense. What you’re basically saying is that the party is broken one way or the other. I agree with you.

  175. hlr:

    Total Registered Voters in United States according to census bureau’s most recent statistics: 142,072,000

    Total Votes for John Kerry in 2004: 59,028,444
    Total Votes for Bush 2004 : 62,040,610

    Difference: 3012166

    You have seen the rise in voter registration over the past year and a half, I think we can afford to lose some of you hardcore Hillary supporters. But I assure you I will work my ass off to bring some of the reasonable ones to our bandwagon.

    How ’bout Patti Solis Doyle huh? Ha ha ha right back at ya …

  176. Riverdaughter, I grew up in Appalachia in a “traditional Democrat” family that farmed and worked in factories and sometimes had to use food stamps to get by… and let me tell you, the Appalachia I know IS racist, and anyone who tells you differently is a liar. I’m not talking about the subtle racism that many peoples of all colors perpetrate against each other, I’m talking about overt racism, starting with dirty looks, escalating to threats, and sometimes ending in physical violence. And these were not isolated incidents… this behavior was rampant amongst people I went to school and church with, not to mention my own family… my grandparents, my uncles, my stepfather. Let me show you some pictures from a family funeral where the pallbearers are all wearing white sheets and pointy hats, and then I want you to tell me that you’re being unfairly lectured about racism…

    I know everyone’s tired of this discussion, and it’s not the most important issue to tackle on our national to do list right now, but ignoring it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.

  177. RD: Can you give “vote for mcstain” the boot? I didn’t think 12 year olds were allowed in here.

  178. Vote for McCain! Lady, you need to get laid if you think I’m an Obamabot! The last thing I want is for Muslim to run this country!

    So, you’re rooting for Hillary in the Dem primary?

  179. You have seen the rise in voter registration over the past year and a half, I think we can afford to lose some of you hardcore Hillary supporters. But I assure you I will work my ass off to bring some of the reasonable ones to our bandwagon. “

    Those new voters are voting for Hillary

  180. Dan: I think we can afford to lose some of you hardcore Hillary supporters.

    Great — your work is done, I assume. Say hi to Patti.

  181. Vote for McCain!: And if all you dumb fat women (which I KNOW you are) get your heads out of your long-neglected cunts, you’ll see the light regarding Hillary’s “success.”

    I find you entertaining. Stick around!

    McCAIN 2008!

  182. hlr,

    I do not think its broken, I think there are some hard feelings. I think right now its more about the personalities and attachments to the candidates. I believe that the real problem is not between Clinton supporters and Obama or vice-versa, its between the supporters of the two candidates. I believe when we all sit down and think about the issues and what ideas we want pushed forward, we are on the same page. The candidates admit that the differences between them are extremely small when compared to the differences with McCain. I beleive/hope that once the primaries are over, we all sit down and think about where we want to go as a country; in a new course or a third Bush term. I do not believe that any part of the Democratic Party wants a third Bush term. I put my faith there in the belief that we will come together as a party.

  183. Sorry, had to chime back in.

    Majorajam, my vote is worth more than yours because you are ignorant and poorly informed (that doesnt relate to the rest of you, just Majorajam, because I don’t like to tolerate racism).

    As for the rest, the reason why Obama is winning is not because his supporters votes count for more. Or if they do, it isnt because of a one for one basis. Its because the party rules state that he is winning, since he has more delegates (note, i said winning, not won, although basically at this point).

    True, there is room for a revelation! he could have murdered a poor working class white woman. With a spoon. While wearing a clown costume. Then, I am pretty sure Hillary would get the nod (actually, really any one of those things. except for just doing something with a spoon) And rightly so!

    But i think there are two strains at work in this blog.

    First is the group who feels maligned by the process and the party, and feels that a protest vote is a valid and informed response. Which, actually, is an argument not without merits. There is always room in the world for forcing the revolution. I happen to agree with you in principle (although i apply the blame to both parties. I feel like Barack embarrassed himself by pandering, and the media embarrassed itself by slathering him with love, and that Hillary embarrassed herself by running a terrible campaign). Although i dont agree that protests votes ever work, and I happen to be on the other side of this debate, so i dont really have to test out that theory. (plus, i am fairly well off and male, so i dont worry for myself with regard to the economy, gas prices, gay marriage, or abortion rights. I support the dem position in all of em, but it wont really change my life)

    Then there are the tricksy partisans who give the rest of clinton’s supporters a bad name. Majorajam. I am looking squarely in your direction. You are the ignorant fools who make Clinton’s base look ignorant and racist. Rather than just principled and goal oriented (admittedly different goals than mine, but heck, i can respect goals over bullheaded racist shleck)

  184. dg: They will catch hell!

    Naah. Young, rich and pretty.

  185. Ugh! I feel like cockroaches are crawling on me. Worse, little “troll-ettes”

    I need a shower.

  186. myiq2xu:

    The new voters will vote Democratic, whoever is the nominee.


    Look, about the Central America comment, i take it back … Know this though, I am rooting for a VP from one of the supporters of Hillary, as a way to make up with the reasonable Hillary supporters. I don’t want Hillary as VP because it would piss off a lot of fellow Obama supporters especially the independents, so I think Wesley Clark is the man for the position.

  187. “I am rooting for a VP from one of the supporters of Hillary, as a way to make up with the reasonable Hillary supporters. I don’t want Hillary as VP because it would piss off a lot of fellow Obama supporters especially the independents…”

    That’s really sweet, Dan. Good luck electing your candidate without half of the base. It will be interesting to watch.

  188. Tim, You just keep telling yourself that.

  189. bostonbomer – I understand what you say. But what are you going to do to get Obama supporters back if Hillary gets the super delegates to give her the nomination? How will Hillary win without the other half of the base?

  190. bostonboomer – if one votes for the issues, than I do not see how a Clinton supporter could vote for McCain over Obama, or how an Obama supporter could vote for McCain over Obama. There is too much heat between the supporters. Whoever gets the nod, I hope we follow the lead of the candidates because they will work for the other.

  191. Tim, No one here is advocating voting for McCain. Individual voters will make their own decisions. But you are wrong when you say there are no differences between the candidates. One candidate is qualified for the job and the other is not. There are substantive differences on the issues too, but I don’t have the time to go into that right now.

  192. Ok…. to heck with party unity. The wonderful authors of this piece are the embodiment of sore losers.

    I’d say sorry your candidate didn’t win, but that wouldn’t be genuine. I didn’t vote for Hillary because I think she isn’t trust worthy. I also don’t buy her “qualification” any more than I do the “qualifications” of the wife of Exxon’s CEO. Just cause you slept in the house doesn’t mean you did the job.

    So be hateful. Run your own party. You weren’t complaining when she was up. You should have been half as vigilant when she squandered her initial funding through ill managed campaign expenses.

  193. Vote Mc,

    We require civility on this blog. You don’t seem to be capable of that, so you’re going in the spam filter. So long.

  194. I know the differences when it comes to the issues. The differences between Hillary and Barack is miniscule. The differences with McCain are HUGE. As for “qualified”, that too is an individual decision. I for one find all of the candidates qualified. Obama has more experience than Lincoln and less than Nixon (so does Clinton). So I guess we will just have to agree to disagree then.

  195. Tim,

    “But what are you going to do to get Obama supporters back if Hillary gets the super delegates to give her the nomination? How will Hillary win without the other half of the base?”

    I don’t understand. I heard that Obama is coronating himself tomorrow night. Since he has already won the nomination, then I don’t have to worry about that, do I?

  196. bostonboomer:

    That’s why we’re getting Wesley Clark. It helps in keeping people like you and Pat Buchanan who are tirelessly working to inflame women and white resentment against Obama. A strong Hillary supporter and a decorated general.

    I hope it will help with the resentment and the patriotism challenges that Reps using to swift boat Barack.

    I mean, isn’t it the media that is manipulating the minds of the average voter? Think about it, nobody said anything about Barack being the presumptive nominee when he won 11 contests in a row. But when he won SC and lost IN, immediately the pundits called the race over. You see, the average voter is not that deep and is guided by perception. Therefore, considering the media and their influence on the average voter, Wesley Clark as VP would enable the pundits to gladly speak and exaggerate about the Dem party uniting.

    The key word is Perception . That’s why I said we can afford to lose some of you here.

  197. The problem w/ this primary is that it has become a cult of personalities conflict. The policy differences between the two candidates is so small that the whole focus of the debate has been whether one candidate is “experienced” or the other is “likeable”, etc.. I personally believe that many people have taken their eye of the ball (defeating McSame in Nov.)

    Face it, neither side is completely blameless.

  198. Chuck, You’re in the green zone. Check the chart and then try to relax before your head explodes.

  199. “The new voters will vote Democratic, whoever is the nominee.

    Why take chances? Nominate Hillary!

  200. Bostonboomer – its not over until delegate threshold has been passed. So I guess either you believe its over, or you are mocking the Obama campaign. If you believe its over, then I agree that argument means nothing to you. If Obama would end up losing the general election and a lot of Clinton supporters stayed home, I think it would totally destroy any chance she would have in another potential presidential run. But if you believe its not over, then I would just like to hear your opinion. A

  201. It helps in keeping people like you and Pat Buchanan who are tirelessly working to inflame women and white resentment against Obama. A strong Hillary supporter and a decorated general.”

    Is that a boobies prize?

    Buy a clue, these wimmin are gettin’ all angry and bitchy without our help

  202. “Face it, neither side is completely blameless.”

    But one side deserves far more blame that the other.

    (hint: It isn’t Hillary)

  203. myig2xu – that is your opinion. I can findjust as many people who would say the opposite. But how does that further our shared ideas?

  204. Not opinion – FACT – False accusations of racism are the dirtiest low-blow any Democrat has ever played on another.

    From Bud White at NQ:

    “Obama supporters are delusional if they think that their race-baiting, misogyny, and jerryrigging the nomination will go unnoticed or unpunished. Kristen Breitweiser writes:

    Those who are responsible for putting Democrats in the broken place we are in right now with regard to Barack Obama had better own it to the end. Leave those bumper stickers on and wear those campaign pins until the bitter end folks because YOU OWN IT. And people are going to want to know who is to blame.

  205. “bauersox – are you really asking who the real bad guys are? are you really saying that the policy differences between both dems and mccain don’t mean anything to you?”

    I think the differences are less profound than people keep saying. I think that McCain’s reputation as a maverick doesn’t come out of thin air. What the Democrats need to do — especially with a ticket that IMO has a very strong chance of losing — is concentrate on retaining control of Congress. People — Democrats — who cover Congress and watch the interactions of the respective Senators have a lot of respect for McCain. Clinton is absolutely brilliant. But Obama is aloof and contributes very little to the dialog. We need to watch the debates and then decide.

    I don’t believe that Obama can beat McCain in November and I think that will become more and more obvious leading up to November. And I think the DNC needs to be sent a message that voters are not about to rubber stamp the hanky panky that has gone on over “punishing” Florida and Michigan, as well as the premature demands that Clinton quit.

  206. myiq2xu:

    You people keep talking about race-baiting and misogyny, I don’t get it. what are you talking about? Just what exactly did the Obama campaign do when it comes to race-baiting and misogyny?
    All I know is that the media was kind of harsh on your candidate right after Iowa, before she won NH. But what did Obama or his campaign really do here?

  207. Tim,

    The problem for Obama is that he has alienated large segments of the Democratic base, e.g., baby boomers, senior citizens, the GLBT community, Latinos, Asians, and worst of all for him, working people. The people on this blog are not just women, and we have representatives of most of those groups here.

    Obama has a serious problem. He has amassed a large number of delegates by winning in very red caucus states that he will not be able to carry in the GE. But he has not done well in primaries, especially in the big swing states with the most electoral votes.

    Have you noticed that Obama has only won a couple of states since February? A lot of the people who already voted for him are now having buyers’ remorse. Obama will be lucky to win as many states as Dukakis did (10), although Dukakis won WV, and I’d say that one is out of the question for Barry.

  208. myig2xu – well facts are facts. and the exit polls from the different states usually show the same thing; Clinton is seen as attacking the Obama more unfairly than the other way around. So, using the only “facts” that are actually out there, one would have to objectively state that Clinton is doing it more.

  209. Aren’t there suddenly rather a LOT of concern trolls? It’s like Axelrod rolled out a new script, or something.

    Yeah, Bud White. That’s about how I feel. Thanks for the push, myiq2xu.

  210. Basically, the sweeties argument is “You have to vote for Obama because McCain is worse”

    That’s like a spouse abuser saying “So what if I beat you? The next guy could be worse.”

    Not exactly a compelling argument.

  211. Lambert,

    Don’t you just love it when they ask what we mean by misogyny and sexism in this campaign? They haven’t noticed a thing! They were sent over here from Politico, so they are a bit obtuse.

  212. Tim & Dan:

    You are really confused about the relationship here.

    WE don’t need to prove anything, WE don’t need to answer any questions.

    YOU need to convince US.

  213. I guess if that is the case, what worries you the most? What is most important to you?

    And please to all of those out there calling people like me one of the “sweeties” – what good is that doing? I am an issue voter. Not the person, the issues come first.

  214. Wow, you go out for a couple hours and kiddies have a party! Holy cow – you guys have really trashed the place.

  215. Tim,

    I can’t imagine what issues caused you to support Obama then. Is it the advisors who support privatization of social security? Is the the opposition to universal health care? Or is it Obama’s vast foreign policy experience? I guess we care about different issues.

    Those of us who support Hillary chose her because of her wonkiness, her intellectual brilliance, and her detailed knowledge of government and policy. We are aren’t voting on personality.

    I have read both of Obama’s books and every article about him that I could get my hands on. I’ve done the research. I still don’t know where he would draw a line in the sand on any principle or issue. Is there anything he would fight to the death for? If so, I haven’t heard him talk about it. He just talks about himself.

  216. Its funny that I was called “one of the worst trolls” by myiq2xu when my comments are completely civil. People need to stop thinking, equally here and Kos and all the other partisan sites, that civilly put disagreement is somehow “trolling.”

    There are a lot of jackasses on this site who came and wrote misogynistic comments. Those can be trolls, and they are probably not even Obama supporters. I bet there are a lot of Republicans who love making idiotic comments just to keep folks divided.

    But most of us do care about unity in the end, because Clinton or Obama, neither can win without people who voted for the other. Now, Obama can probably win without the commenters from this site, and Clinton can probably win if no one who has ever even read a Kos posting votes for her, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t all be useful toward a reasonable shared goal of electing a Democrat, whomsoever it may be.

  217. BB: There’s not a dime’s worth of difference between Hillary and Obama on most of the issues, except she was there first and knows how to turn her agenda into reality.

    She’s also got experience and a track record to judge her by.

    Obama’s got 2-3 speeches.

  218. First of all, I never said you voted on personality. Others here were stating that us who favored Obama did so on personality and not issues. I support Obama’s view of foreign diplomatic policy. I favor his approach to health care because I believe it is more reachable. The word “mandate” is a death knell to universal health care. Its going to take steps to get there. I like the fact that he wants to raise the social security tax so people like Bill Gates pays the same percentage as I do for it.

    As for personality, I think Obama is brilliant. I like the idea that he has ran the same campaign, he hasn’t had to try seven different slogans. I like the fact that he has the experience of working on the local level (community organizer), state and federal level. He understands the interconnections between them.

    I do not hold against him the views of advisors. In fact, I like it when someone has people who have different ideas than them as advisors. Lincoln did it right, Bush didn’t.

    But that wasn’t my question.

    1) He does not support privatizing social security. He has taken a stand on how to make it last; ensuring that the Paris Hilton’s of the world pay the same percentage of their income to social security as the cleaning people in Hilton hotels.

    2) I already stated I found Obama’s health care more feasible. And if you want the truth, I would take Kucinich’s idea over them all, but its not possible.

    3) Foreign policy experience is overrated. There is not a correlation between foreign policy experience and results as a President. Its a false premise.

    So no, we do not care about different issues. I think we definitely see things differently.

  219. By “worst” I meant inept and ineffective.

    Ya gotta keep in mind Andy, you aren’t the first motley crew we’ve met.

    If we dance with every Obot that slithers in, we’d never get nothin’ done.

  220. Andrew,

    Give it up. Most of us here at The Confluence have made our choice already. We aren’t going to vote for Obama period. A lot of us have already left the Democratic Party and reregistered as unaffiliated. If you want to convince people to vote for Obama, you’re wasting your time here. Obama chose to win the nomination by dividing the party. No one can put it back together now. Good luck getting him elected.

  221. myiq,

    I respect your opinion, but on the issues I care about there is a difference. I’m more concerned about domestic issues. On foreign policy, I know neither candidate will do what I want. But I trust Hillary to stand up for social programs and for women and children. In my opinion Obama is a Libertarian. He may stand up for personal freedom (though I actually doubt it), but he’ll be like Reagan and Bush on social programs. I’ve researched him pretty carefully, and that is my conclusion.

  222. Tim: We’ve seen those same talking points many, many times.

    That dog won’t hunt.

  223. Hey, sweeties.

    When the crap was flying at Kos and other sites, were you doing this dance of the seven kinds of unity?

    Please give the links to prove it.

  224. BB: I was referring to the “read my website” positions Obama supporters claim they love.

    I don’t see any evidence that Obama really believes any of those things.

  225. Tim, I just don’t agree with you. If you think Obama doesn’t support privatizing social programs, I suggest you read The Audacity of Hope, focusing on chapter 5: “Opportunity.” I’m through arguing with you now. Thank you for keeping it civil.

  226. myig2xu – you talk about Clinton’s track record, Obama has a longer voting track record. Why does he have very high ratings from progressive groups? He does because he has been consistent in his voting, he sticks to his principles.

    I guess I would like to know what is gained if a Republican is elected? What is gained if more conservative judges are placed on appellate courts, or worse, the Supreme Court? How does this help progressive/Democratic ideals?

    I guess what I should really ask if this is a site that is not open to Obama? If it is open, that is great. If it is not, then I guess I will wish you all a nice day.

  227. As a member of the Obama-loving, campaign-volunteering, young working woman contingent (disclosing everything from the start), I don’t think your blog’s under attack from any organized campaign angle. And I say that because I seriously thought of proposing a blog squad (I’ve worked on social networking stuff for the past few years) and gamed it out.

    Having people post cookie-cutter messages just isn’t something I can see coming from the campaign, because it’s certainly not how I or anyone in the industry I know would do it. It’s much more likely to be another blog out there, or someone’s Facebook page or some other small activist group that’s just grabbed onto a certain format and run around posting it. I’m not saying the Obama campaign ISN’T deploying blog posters, but anyone put in charge of managing blog presence would know not to have message similarity like that.

    They’re both good candidates, and in any other year I’d likely have swung behind Hillary. But I’ve lived in a few countries that have had strong, awesome/terrifying women leaders, so the idea of voting in the first woman is not shiny and spectacular to me. And I’m not particularly fussed about voting in the first minority, either.

    Unfortunately, I often feel like Hillary is saying “I understand you, I will take care of you, I know exactly what needs to happen here”. I don’t find that reassuring. I prefer listening to Obama reason something out and demand that I get involved. I’ve never been part of a political campaign before, but I don’t feel as if I’ll get shut out of Obama’s presidency. It feels open and… heh, actually, it sort of feels like a start-up. You have a good idea, they’ll give you some line and let you run with it. The best ideas will rise to the top.

    Yes, it sounds a bit idealistic, but I’m not talking about a dream, I’m talking about a company model I’ve been part of for a decade. It works; even the start-ups that tanked just ended up reverting to a more conventional management model. And I want to take that chance. I think it’s time. And having lived abroad for the past decade, I like Obama’s view of the world.

    I hope every Democrat votes, despite the fact that it looks like Hillary isn’t going to be the nominee. When things looked dire for my guy, I knew I’d be bitter about it but would vote for Clinton in November — anything to break this horrible Bush/McCain cycle. And frankly, it’s her management style and transparency that put me off in the first place, but her policies are MILES better than McCain’s, so staying home would’ve been shooting myself in the foot. Now it turns out that my guy might actually be that nominee, I hope that Democrats and Independents will hold their noses, blur their vision, whatever — but I hope they’ll vote for the person who is not Return of Bush.

  228. What’s up with the patronizing shortening of names here myig2xu? Barry, Andy?

    The Internet is a bit scary because people get so carried away by groupthink so quickly, and anyone who doesn’t agree is “slithering” in and needs to be smacked down and condescneded to so that anything persuasive they say can be dutifully ignored.

    Look, I’m not going to try to convince y’all to support Obama anymore in the event he’s the nominee. I hope some of you (even you bostonboomer) will come to that decision at some point in the next six months in the event he gets the nomination.

    I think the critical thing for people to remember is that most of Obama’s supporters are not the people who write bullshit comments on this site, just as I don’t think most of Clinton’s supporters are the ones who post the latest Muslim and Pledge of Allegiance smears on Internet chat boards. If I thought that was what most of Clinton’s supporters believed, I probably would be as adamantly against her as folks here seem to be against Obama.

    In the end Clinton and Obama might not be to fond of each other but they’ll have a lot mutual respect for one another’s political talents. I hope some of the hardcore partisans (I’m one of them to be sure, but never said I wouldn’t vote for Clinton, just would be pissed about it) get a chance to emulate that.

  229. Do y’all have anything new? So far it’s the sameold stuff we’ve heard over and over already.

    It didn’t work before either.

  230. Bostonboomer –

    On page 179 of Audacity of Hope (hard cover), Obama shows that he is against privatizing social security. He finishes the paragragh with “That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t encourage individuals to pursue higher-risk, higher-return investment strategies. They should. It just means that they should do so with savings other than those put into Social Security.”

    I think this shows that he is against it. He talks about how some would have more money, but that there would be losers. And if we don’t want seniors on the street, than privatizing social security is not the way to go.

    I think we can all agree on that.

  231. myiq2xu (nodding)

    I keep typing replies only to stop and think — I’ve done this before

    Mainly I don’t think the Presidency should be someone’s first full time job. Obama’s resume reads like something for a 27 year old — not a Presidential contender. It’s absurd.

  232. katiebird:

    Please let me know if you see something new and original. I’m gonna go eat dinner.


    “Just say NO to kool-aid”

  233. Tim Mc—

    Sen. Obama does not have a longer voting track record. You are incorrect. There was an email to Obama supporters that went out a while ago that has been debunked by factcheck.org and Newsweek.

    See http://www.newsweek.com/id/129976./

    I’m sure you’re aware that Sen. Obama benefitted by his friendship with Emil Jones in the Illinois State Senate? Jones took key bills away from other senators and gave them to Sen. Obama to bulk up his resume.

    See http://www.houstonpress.com/2008-02-28/news/barack-obama-screamed-at-me/print for more information.

    And for the fifteenth time today, please stop trying to fearmonger regarding the federal courts. With a Dem majority in the House and Senate, the legislature can stop the nomination of judges nominated by a McCain administration.

    You do know that Sen. Obama was going to vote to confirm Justive Roberts, right? Except his politcal advisor told him it would hurt his presidential chances?

    Do you want to argue any other points of Sen. Obama’s slim record? How about Kyl-Lieberman? He missed the vote. You know he co-sponsored a bill in early 2007 that also supported the designation of the Iranian Revolutionary Guards as a terrorist organization, just like the Kyl-Lieberman “Sense of the Senate” resolution.

    It was called “The Counter-Proliferation Act of 2007.” One provision states:

    “(14) the United States should designate the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, which purveys terrorism throughout the Middle East and plays an important role in the Iranian economy, as a foreign terrorist organization under section 219 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, place the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of specially designated global terrorists, and place the Iranian Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps on the list of weapons of mass destruction proliferators and their supporters;”

    See http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h110-1400 for the text of the bill.

  234. OK, myiq. Will do!

  235. katiebird

    Very few 27-year-olds have years as community organizers, civil rights attorneys, law professors, state legislators, and US Senators under their belt, plus sole authorship of a beautifully written bestseller.

    Come on! Its one thing to dislike someone’s policies, but lets be honest with each other!

  236. The level of McCain sympathy on this website is astonishing and disturbing. I feel for Hillary, but she lost fair and square. It just bothers me that otherwise educated people can not seem to understand that. Unfortunately for us, this level of delusion inaccurately speaks to the sexist notion that women are not as intelligent as men.

  237. oh my god katie….have you been dealing with this all evening?

  238. Andrew, I DREAM of him talking about the Community Organizing work. Don’t make me laugh.

    Here’s my question:

    List the full time jobs held by Obama since graduating Law School.

    Name One Major Accomplishment from each one (or more)

  239. No, Gary. I think I just took over the shift from myiq2x.

  240. yikes…what the heck happened here? Thanks BB for all the hard work. Can we set a ″ghost site″ for our well travelled and well informed ”friends” to go to do their proselitizing?

  241. I think I should have the chart printed out though, to make it easier to identify the positions of our troubled visitors.

  242. Upstate — I think it’s from Ben Smith’s site. He’s got a link to this post.

  243. lol…well maybe I’ll come back and relieve you later! Reminds me of visiting an atrium of hummingbirds. They kind of buzz around, make a lot of noise, but you can never really see them. Have fun!

  244. Andrew,

    Obama worked for 3 years as a “community organizer.” Can you name and describe in detail two projects in which he made a difference for the community he worked in?

    And while you’re at it, please explain why he didn’t do anything when members of the community he represented in the State Senate were freezing and going without water in tenements that he helped get government funding for?

    You say Obama worked as a “civil rights attorney.” What cases did he argue in court?

    Obama is not a “professor.” He worked as an adjunct instructor, something that most doctoral students have also done.

  245. A. Morgan, You are mistaken. There is no McCain sympathy on this website. And we are not all women. Now run along back to whereever you came from.

  246. Katiebird,

    Most of them are in the blue or yellow zones–realizing they goofed when they kicked us out of the party or confident that we’ll come crawling back. A few were in the Attack/gloat zone, but they used too much foul language, so I deleted them. At least one was in the Tantrum stage, but he went off somewhere, thank goodness.

  247. Also, Andrew, In Illinois the State Legislature meets only part of the year. What did Obama do the rest of the time?

    The thing is, having worked at a Law School and in local politics and in an Urban Public Library — I’ve known people who’ve got the same background as Obama (yes — I even know a famously successful author) — none of these people think of themselves as on the Presidential Track.

    They’re smart, public minded — great people. But they aren’t prepared to hold the hardest job in the world.

    He’s just not ready.

  248. BostonBoomer — email alert

  249. Katiebird, I got it and replied.

  250. Tell me what legislative accomplishments Hillary Clinton has had in the past 8 years, please. Genuinely, I’m asking because last time I looked at her record, it was on a partisan site and potentially misleading.

  251. Grace? I’m not going to bother answering because THIS is a Hillary Blog so you’d probably consider whatever I say misleading too.

    (slapping my own face.)

    I think it’s probably time for this post to get Back On Topic.

  252. I feel like my IQ went down 20 points after reading that mess.

  253. Mike, I haven’t been through the whole thing. I guess I’d better not risk reading it all.

  254. I also wonder what it’s going to feel like going down in history with the crowd of cynics that failed to let go of the ship as it went down, instead trying to hang onto company. If Obama wins and becomes one of the best presidents we’ve ever had, will it be too late for the cynics to appreciate it? I hope not.

  255. Don’t bother Katie.

  256. Not at all, katiebird, I’d have considered it the other side of the coin. It’s a hard slog going through legislative documents, so if an achievement wasn’t mentioned in the other list, I wouldn’t know I’d missed it. If you mention an achievement, then I have a starting point to go off and find it.

    (I do know it’s a Hillary blog, I read through a bit before posting.)

  257. Could any of you work up an illustration about the Clinton Perpetual Motion Machine Graph?

    As I see it, it’s a machine that somehow produces more energy than was put into it–even though that energy cannot be used to power anything other than the machine itself. At the heart of the machine is a cognitive dissonance engine powered by perpetual oscillation from megalomaniacal folly to scorched-earth, unyielding denial that trails a vast constellation of doublethink and human wreckage in its wake.

  258. …aaand New Mexico, you’ve just slammed so many buttons so incredibly hard with that post, I can only assume you’re a Republican plant. Yikes.

  259. Nice one anonymous. This whole mess on both sides is counterproductive. Obama is the nominee whether Clinton supporters want to accept it or not. We’re all Dems and McCain is on the other side. We can have bitter feelings towards each other, but take them out on the GOP. It’s like the intertubes are full of petty children.

  260. Grace? The Illinois Legislature isn’t a full time job. I’m looking for work history here. It shouldn’t be that difficult. So far, I don’t find any record of a full time job experience.

  261. I guess none of these guys are in summer school. maybe just in between sessions. Ah to be young and stupid and have tons of time on your hands….

  262. Mike, We’ll see who the nominee is in Denver. Whether you want to accept that or not.

  263. I have put this blog in my favorite places. Thanks for redeeming my faith in the intelligence of Democratic voters. Its going to take us McCain supporters + you Hillary supporters to keep Barrack Hussein Obama out of the White House. People say that Hillary and Obama are close on policy issues. However, one place they disagree is in turning over the country to Hamas. That’s for sure. This country can’t afford Obama as President.

    Nate Peele

  264. No, katiebird, we’ll see who the nominee is in early June. Hillary is not going to destroy the Democratic Party. She’ll fight at the rules committee meeting at the end of May but that’s it.
    It’s quite unfortunate that during such a historic time in this country, with two strong candidates, some supporters on both sides have resorted to such hatred not just of the candidate but of the candidate’s supporters. How about fighting FOR your candidate instead of trashing the other one.

  265. I know the Illinois Leg isn’t a full-time commitment, katiebird — I was just looking for Clinton’s Senate achievements.

    While Obama was in the Illinois Senate, I believe he was also teaching law in Chicago. So he was working two jobs (which I don’t think is something to be scoffed at).

  266. If Obama is the nominee, I will vote for McCain. The last thing this country needs is Pelosi, Kennedy, and Kerry playing Sock Puppet theatre.

    Thank god the Republicans nominated a moderate.

    I’m not even going to vote any down ticket Dems that endorsed this creep. We must repudiate the Obama/Chicago money/patronage machine. Half of the Dems are lining up to get a little of the MoveOn/Obama honey. What is the price? The Democratic Party’s soul. Why do you think he is telling donors not to donate to anything except Obama campaign?
    Reject the phony.
    Vote against him.
    Vote agfainst Democrats who endorsed him.
    Take back the party from radical left-wing forces.

  267. Larz,

    Hillary is virtually tied for the nomination. You can make a desperate claim that his tiny delegate lead is meaningful.

    There are only a couple more weeks left to the primaries. There’s no reason in the world for Hillary to drop out. Let’s all go to the convention and have fun.

    Why does your candidate like to win by shoving the other candidates out of the race. Chill out.

  268. obviously grace has never taught at a university before. I openly scoff at a professor/state legislator. Where do i sign up for that?

  269. Grace,

    (snore) I’m still waiting hear about even ONE full time job in Obama’s work history.

  270. Grace? FULL TIME — Why is this such a difficult thing?

  271. Now wait a minute, Gary. I’ve been an adjunct instructor. It’s hard work. Well…somewhat hard. It just doesn’t qualify you to be POTUS.

  272. Grace,

    He was working the slum lord of Chicago, Resko for a little sweet campaign cash.

    He was also working Alice Palmer in Chicago, getting her knocked off the ballot. He loves voter suppresion when it serves him.

    His “work” in Chicago also included working for American Home grown terroist, Bill Ayers, funneling money to Hamas.

    Dirty Chicago rat politcian, can’t win unless he’s rat fucking.

  273. That’s why I said early June, when the primaries are over. Hillary has every right to stay in the race and, accept it or not, Obama has not called on her to drop out. I’ll fully admit the nomination is close, but to say it is a virtual tie is simply not true. Obama will continue to pick up four to five superdelegates each day and this race will be over. Of course, it will be over when Hillary decides to exit the race. And, no, Obama hasn’t won because he shoved other candidates out of the race. He’s won because of understanding the importance of the caucus states and smaller states where he could pick up considerable number of delegates. Yes, the rules may not be ideal but they are the rules and understanding those rules is how you win.

  274. Gee katiebird, you scared the original sweeties away!

    What did you do, give them a pop quiz?


  275. Hey Gary, Did you hear about Obama’s latest horrible gaffe? He never heard of the Hanford nuclear site in Washington State. He was asked about it while campaigning over the weekend and he um didn’t have a clue.


    That and voting for the Cheney energy bill and supporting “clean coal” and they are still voting for him.

  276. Mawm, And even at that (pathetic as it is) none of it was a regular full time job. Or it doesn’t read like it anywhere I’ve seen.

  277. bb- I have too. I thought it was pretty cushy. wouldn’t mind doing it again…

  278. bb- no I hadn’t. It’s kind of creepy, he resembles GW B more and more everyday. lack of intellectual curiosity, disdain for working people. never worked a day in his life. terminal foot-in-mouth disease. Very eerie…..

  279. BTW – the Ilinois lege meets 65 days a year. Working 5 days a week, that leaves 9 months vacant, 8 if you give them a vacation too.

  280. Immediately out of college, I believe Obama worked for a law firm for a few years full-time. After that he’s had a lot of different jobs, ranging from community work (another two years full-time) to lecturing to writing two books to political work.

    But this work history doesn’t bother me; I’ve patchworked jobs in the past as well, both out of necessity and out of split interest. Not as high-profile ones, but Obama’s got a few years on me.

    What was Hillary’s last full-time job? Was it the Rose Law Firm in the early 90s?

  281. Larz,

    The Rulz are you have to have a malority of the 2210 delegates. Until then, there is no nominee. And guess what? It won’t happen until August. Your boy is looking tired. Can he make it till then? Hillary has got the electoral map needed to win. The question for superdelegates is do you want to win in November, or do you want the Obama money/honey.

  282. BB & Gary, Did BO do the adjunct thing as a full time job? I’ve never done it myself but when I worked at a University the adjuncts I knew were part time. Very Smart people — but as Gary says, not Presidential Track.

    His resume looks very thin to me but, I’m trying to get a grip on it.

    The actual work history (eventually even WHO he worked for) and what (if anything) that was accomplished.

    myiq2xu, do you think those questions have anything to do with the silence?

  283. no, grace, she has been US Senator…that’s a bit more full time that ill state sen…..

  284. Lack of intellectual curiosity? Disdain for working people? Is this really who you believe Obama to be?

  285. Ah, Grace — now we’re cooking. I don’t think that WAS a full time job in the Law Firm, though. What was the name of the firm? Can you tell me his major cases? I read that he did legal research. But that can’t be true.

  286. Grace, Maybe you should run for President then. Do you know where the great lakes are? Do you know where KY and WV are in relation to IL? Do you know what the Hanford site is? If so, you might be better qualified than Barack Obama.

    Oh, and Hillary has been a Senator for the past 8 years. That’s a full-time job, Grace.

  287. For everyone who says that this race has been great for democrats, this is why lots of smart folks wanted things to end amicably earlier on in the primary season. Democracy is wonderful, and everyones’ votes are important. However I don’t think anyone can deny that animosity has grown tremendously on both sides in the last couple of months. I also think that the increase in animosity on both sides is out of proportion to recent actions by either candidate. Finally, I think that the American people suffer most, as the important policy positions shared by both Democratic candidates have now taken a backseat to more personal arguments.

    Unfortunately, I’m not sure that this kind of end to the primary season was avoidable anyway.

  288. Grace,

    Go to http://www.hillaryclinton.com You can find out all about the accomplished Senator from NY

  289. katie, I found this resume online the otherday. I remember remarking to john david that I thought my resume was more impressive….


  290. Lars, I just want to know where he worked. I’ve poked around looking for details. But, I’m not that excited by the guy to do any more research.

    I thought maybe some of you who are so excited about the idea of getting some of us to support him well, I thought you might have the details at your finger tips.

  291. Yes, Larz. That is who Obama is. I realize you think he is “the one you have been waiting for,” and perhaps he is. But don’t try to cram him down our throats. We’re not having it.

  292. Gary, THAT is the site that set me off on this quest. I mean some supporter likes Obama enough to buy this site and put that resume together.

    AND it starts with his education!!!

    A 47 year old man and his resume starts with Education??

    I wouldn’t hire him for Library Director.

  293. Obama the “civil rights attorney”

    Besides helping Rezko the slumlord, what cases did Obama work on? How many hours did he bill on each case? Did he ever appear in court, or argue an appeal?

    What was his won/loss record?

  294. it appears that all he’s done since 1994 is teach at law school. and if he was adjunct I doubt he was working very hard at all. I believe his wife was doing something to do with her father’s involvement in the chicago political machine. I read somewhere he was a precinct boss or something. I don’t konw, someone have info about that?

  295. Mawm: “rat fucking”? …really?

    Rezko’s been tried, and nothing that connected him illegally with Obama came out at the trial. The Clinton campaign had a staff member sitting in the gallery, so I’m sure that even if the Chicago papers hadn’t reported on it (and Lynn Sweet and Co. are pretty diligent) then the campaign would’ve mentioned a big story. Sometimes the appearance of impropriety is just that — and the Chicago papers have been all over this story for ages. I agree he shouldn’t have gotten into that land deal and should’ve been more careful with Rezko, but sometimes shit happens. Clinton’s had similar skeletons in her closet.

    Alice Palmer was a bit of hardball politics. And given how many knocks he’s gotten for being politically naive, I like the fact that he’ll use the roles to get what he wants. Clinton’s decision that she wanted to run for Senate in New York booted out the woman who was meant to run, Nita Lowey, who had leagues more experience than HRC. I call it a draw.

    Ayers… Good. Lord. He was on a board with the man, he got a donation that’s well within the boundaries of the rules, and Bill Clinton pardoned two Weathermen! So it’s okay to pardon them, but Obama associating with one in Chicago is somehow supporting homegrown terrorism?!

  296. Katiebird, The part that has me most mystified is the “civil rights attorney” claim. From what I’ve heard, Obama never argued a case in court. I could be wrong. Maybe Lars would know about what high profile civil rights cases Obama handled?

    As for the adjunct job, I don’t know how many courses Obama taught at once. If you teach 3 courses at a time that would be full-time. That’s a lot of work actually, but I think he was doing other things at the same time. It would be nice to know how heavy of a course load he had and also what courses he taught. Were they advanced courses or basic ones? Usually the adjuncts do the most basic courses.

  297. ricky,

    Animosity has shown up because of the Obama campaign’s use of race baiting in SC to get to 90% African American support.

    Animosity grew when Obama blocked revotes in MI and FL, because, we found out, he wins when he suppresses the vote. Check out how he won his Illinois senate seat against Alice Palmer.

    Animosity developed when we find out that the Democratic nominating process awards a net 28 delegates to Obama when he wins a caucus by 13,000 votes, and awards Clinton a net 12 when she wins Pennsylvania by 200,000 votes.

    I need a glass of water. I’ll be back

  298. Katiebird,
    I appreciate the questions you’re asking, and understand why the “experience” argument can be a strong one against Obama. But please don’t claim that you ask simply because you want to know. It’s a rather simply rhetorical tool you’re using and it doesn’t really advance the conversation.
    Of course, having bostonboomer claim that Obama is simple-minded and hates poor, working people doesn’t help much either.

  299. Gary,

    Obama was the director of the Annenberg Challenge, an educational foundation started by Bill Ayers. Bill Ayers hired him for the job, and don’t think that won’t come back to haunt Obama in the GE. He was also on the board of the Woods Fund.

  300. bboomer, I hate to keep coming back to it, but I used to teach 3 classes, MWF 8-11am with office hours 11-12, M&F. Granted I did have to grade, but I could do that in the comfort of my home. So that’s really 11 hours a week, and I was considered full time….. I did teach basic courses (Spanish), so maybe that had something to do with it. I was getting made the same as every other adjunct though, so….Now I’ve also worked full time as a roofer. That was a lot harder…lol

  301. Katie: Yes, the trollmaster didn’t tell them there was an exam, they forgot their pencils.

    Obama worked as a summer intern after law school (not college) and that’s where he met Michelle, who was already a licensed atty.

    Then his resume goes vague for a couple years, with his first book and a voter registration drive mentioned.

    Then he starts at the civil rights firm that represented Rezko.

    Three years later he ran over Alice Palmer to join the Illinois Senate, but only his last year shows any accomplishments. Oh yeah, he ran against an incumbent Dem for a House seat and got creamed in the primary around 2000 (his only actual contested election)

  302. Grace,

    Really great Illinois senator who would let his constiuents freeze to death in slums his money bundler Rezko built. There were multiple warning about that project, and Obama says he didn’t know anything about it.

    Ayers was his boss. He and Ayers funneled $70000 to Hamas. Ayers kicked off his Senate Campaign.

    Rezko trial is NOT over, so don’t be surprised if Precious has some more WORM(what Obama Really Meant) to feed us.

  303. BB, I really don’t mean to be dismissive of adjuncts work. I’m just wondering what Obama’s particular duties were or what the level of commitment was.

    Here’s a link to Hillary’s early experience. It’s full of serious full time jobs (who would ever think of mentioning this) and the accomplishments for them.

    Really, a Presidential candidate’s work experience should be much easier to find. Here’s the corresponding page for Barack Obama.

    Pretty vacant.

  304. hey larz, I said that, not babyboomer….”credit where credit is due” ….isn’t that one of yall’s creepy obaaama catchphrases…..you guys know what i’m talking about? like scientologists and jehovah’s witnesses….they have these lines that they all use. Anybody ever see “Village of the Damned”…that’s what its starting to feel like

  305. Larz,

    I did not call Obama “simple minded.” Nor did I say that he “hates poor, working people.” I responded to this question from you:

    “Lack of intellectual curiosity? Disdain for working people? Is this really who you believe Obama to be?”

    Not the same thing as “simple-minded,” “hates poor working people. Not at all.

  306. Oh, I forgot, Obama was “of counsel” for the slumlord attorneys but not making any money until he got a bunch of dough to represent the ping-pong guy he later championed a state govt grant for.

  307. Grace,

    Rat Fucking is the appropriate term for what Obama campaign did in Caucuses around the country. Voter intimidation, and voter fraud. All of this will be presented at the rules committee meeting on May 31. I’ll be there, how about you?

  308. Delightfully, I have absolutely no desire to run for President. Rotten job, I think, and I don’t like getting shot at. Besides, I’m pretty sure my dual citizenship would instantly cause a good portion of the population to label me as some sort of traitor or sleeper agent or whatever’s the favoured slur of the day.

    (And yes, I’m aware that the US Senate is a full-time job, but since I’d asked a number of times for an achievement or two and gotten no response, I decided to skip to the next job back.)

    I wouldn’t read too much into the formatting of that CV; it’s a wiki, so likely been arranged by someone entry-level… So, someone who actually formatted their own CV that way.

    Wiki has his post-college work at: Business International Corporation and New York Public Interest Research Group. But I’d need more time to track down an official version.

  309. I’m gonna go make a post at my homeblog re: arguing with trolls.

  310. Mawm,

    I have no interest in being argumentative. I’m fairly knowledgable about each of the issues that you have referenced, and I have my opinions about each of them (agree with your thoughts on some, and disagree on others).

    I believe that both candidates have significant positives and significant negatives, however my point is that the rise in anger on both sides over the past few weeks is out of proportion to anything that either candidate has recently done. This race, while at times exciting, has not been that great for our party.

  311. Lars,
    This is NOT a rhetorical question. I’m serious. As far as I can see we’re very close to nominating a man as the Democratic Candidate for President and no one will tell me what he’s done with his life.

    If you were a regular reader here, you would know that I’ve been asking this question for over a month. So don’t tell ME this is a game.

    The answer should be transparent.

  312. grace,

    what are you implying with the “getting shot at line”? Doesn’t obama deserve better than that. to have his supporters throw around such volatile language. tsk tsk…

  313. gary,

    I agree. Teaching is a hell of a lot better than working an actual 9-5 job, believe me, I know. I was just trying to be fair to poor Barry.

  314. Wow, BB, kbird, Mawn, Gary, myq et al…wow. Tip my hat and thanks.

  315. Obama was born in the Chicago money/patronage system. This is what Fitzgerald is trying to crack open in Chicago. It is dirty pay to play politics. It is all about getting your friends jobs in government in return for favors down the road.

    Obama is currently trying to bring this “old politics” to the national scene. He is trying to get all the money donated to Democrats to flow through his campaign while he continually passes it out to down ticket Dems. We must fight this UnDemocratic practice as it will bring even more corruption to our national politics.

    Do not let Chicago politics come to Washington.

  316. Garychapelhill, I’m merely saying that any world leader becomes a magnet for loons. I wouldn’t want to be President of France or PM of England for the same reason. The comment had absolutely no connection to the current campaign, only that I personally would not want a job that has that level of attention.

    Really, the comment had no stinger.

  317. Ricky,

    Maybe you should view some of the video compilations of the sexist attacks that Hillary has been subjected to. There is one on our first post from today. The blatant misogyny that has been evident throughout this campaign has led to the hostility among Clinton supporters.

    I realize you are concerned, but you are wasting your time here. The damage has been done. Obama has alienated millions of Democrats. Some of them will vote for him if he is the nominee. Many will not. He chose the tactics he used in his campaign, and he chose not to discourage the sexism in the media and among his supporters.

  318. Mawm: No, no, no!

    Ratfuckers are GOP operatives who infiltrate and sabotage Democratic campaigns.

    There term comes from Watergate and the Nixon era. Ratfuckers helped Nixon guarantee he would face George McGovern in the general election by sabotaging other Democrats in the primaries.

    Karl Rove was one of the original ratfuckers.

    See my blog for details, it was my very first post.

  319. “The same people who wrote all kinds of shit about Obama supporters would be asking for their money and time and still could be if this turns out differently then expected. Its the game.”

    It’s not a game I’m willing to play. Whether I stay home, write in Hillary’s name, or vote for McC., the one thing that’s for certain is that I will not vote for Obama. As far as I’m concerned, Obama is responsible for the stuff his supporters have written. And it was just stuff about Clinton — although that was pretty awful. It was lurid stuff about Clinton’s supporters.

    I think we ought to remember that our votes belong to us — to do as we like with — and we don’t *owe* them to anybody.

  320. You don’t have to be GOP to be a ratfucker anymore.

  321. myiq2xu, on May 19th, 2008 at 11:57 pm

    Rat fucking is exactly what Obama campaign did in caucuses all over the country. There are so many similarities in different states. It is obvious it was coordinated rat fucking. The rules committee will be taking it up on May 31.

  322. Hey, I just wanna pop in and congratulate you gals for not tolerating bigotry just in order to go after Obama. No, seriously. Super-serious. Honest.

    You should *see* some of the things Far Right-Wingers are saying about him. Makes all of this look like a f—ing kumbaya around the campfire. And yet, for all this Pro-Obama news coverage, these same major news networks seem more than willing to let these racist comments stand on their website for the world to see.

    This site on the other hand, while *AHEM* clearly not biased towards Obama, quickly removed the posts from the one racial troll that was lurking around. Bravo!

  323. Bostonboomer,

    There has clearly been some sexism. My fiance is a public interest attorney with a focus on women’s rights, and I believe she has helped me to appreciate some of the more egregious instances, which have laregly come from the pundits. In my personal opinion, I think that both candidates have had to walk very difficult tightropes due to issues of gender and ethnicity.

    I realize those that are upset here are largely resigned to being upset. I don’t mean to imply that there are not some reasons for anger. I do think it’s still worthwhile to state that the anger on either side is out of proportion to the recent actions of either campaign, and is largely a product of the hotly contested race.

  324. “Lack of intellectual curiosity? Disdain for working people? Is this really who you believe Obama to be?”

    You left out dishonesty, disloyalty and willingness to race-bait his way to the top spot.

    I would like to know what Michelle Obama does to earn her mid-six figure salary at University of Chicago. That kind of money is way out of scale for a non-profit. Why was she promoted when he became a senator? If it was for earmarks, then she is essentially a bag woman for U of C. People have been asking about this, but everybody’s lips appear to be sealed.

    The Michelle business reminds me of the “book deals” that Rupert Murdoch — who owns Harper Collins — used to hand out to politicians he wanted to own. A lavish deal for Newt Gingrich to write a sex novel — that kind of thing. These were basically bribes, disguised as “advances.”

  325. Whatever, Ricky. I don’t think the anger is out of proportion. You don’t get to tell me what I can think and feel. You are in our space here. That’s enough condescension from you. No more, or you’ll go into the spam filter. You’ve made your points.

  326. Bostonboomer,

    I was just sharing my opinion, and I understand if you don’t want to hear my take on things. My intention was not to tell you what or how to feel, and I have no interest in having an argument. I don’t know that any public blog is off limits to me, especially when I make relatively even-handed comments respectfully.

  327. Again, tone on postings often comes off totally wrong, so genuinely: would you guys like us to just bugger off? Or can we stick around and talk? If I’m nothing more than an annoyance, I’ll certainly leave — I just thought the conversation interesting.

  328. Ricky, It just seems pointless to me to argue with someone who hasn’t noticed the massive level of sexism directed at Hillary Clinton throughout this campaign.

    Grace, I’m glad you enjoyed the discussion. I’m going to hit the sack now, and it looks like Katiebird already took off. You and Ricky seem to be the only ones still here. G’night.

  329. Night — maybe see you later in less Ben Smith-inspired circumstances…

  330. Jeebus, will we ever get the troll stench out of the upholstery?

  331. As I read these posts and the comments, I’m so reminded of the short story we all read in the 5th grade about Babe Didrikson — the money shot of the story, “I’ve finally found a place to belong.”

    I know y’all will say, “He’s just saying that trying to look all cool and stuff,” but let me tell you, I’ve been feeling like the accidental tourist who took that 40-year tour in the wilderness who is about to be “stop lossed.” Me can no takey it any more — see, I’ve even forgotten how to communicate appropriately.

    I so enjoyed the guide to the Obamaniac Cycle, but I have to tell ya — go to any of the echo chambers, gingerly stick your head above the foxhole and quietly murmur, “Excuse me kind all-knowing sirs and madams and I mean not to bother or intrude, but it seems that neither candidate is likely to reach the requisite number of delegates without automatic delegates in order to claim the nomination.” It won’t be pretty, in fact it is down right ugly — I, as I’m sure all who are reading this, have been called everything including an incurable case of small barnyard animal transmitted STD.

    Enough of my bad fortune, let’s talk of the good fortune I’m presently relishing in having found this happy-making site. I feel certain I can ask for a second opinion here that I’m quite the miscreant the Obamabots scream I am — geez, just like Babe, it’s great to have a place to be.

    I know that this is too long to expect anyone to have read this far, but if anyone has trudged this far, I’ve a question: Is there anything or anywhere I might register neck-vein bulging, borderline stroke provoking and good old retch inducing anger at NBC and MSNBC?

    I have actually found listening to Fox Noise preferable to the all Barrack, all the time network. Never thought I would be saying that, but if you live long enough I guess anything is possible.

    I bid all a good night and thanks again for providing me a place to be.

  332. Yippee! A Democratic website I can actually belong to! I’m also a Hillary supporter who feels neglected. I’m also refusing to vote for Obama because I think he is incredibly unqualified to be President. I can’t even hold my nose and vote for him. I think he’d be a total disaster.

    I just registered at Talkleft as “Grace” and everyone thought I was a troll. Now I understand why. I guess I’ll be “Gracie7” here so there is no confusion.

    I see all the American Idol posters have already found this place. Have you explained that you cannot text vote for Obama 100,000 times on election day and have them all count?

  333. Prolix, wow — if you read through all this and still like us, well There’s a hug waiting for you for everything you’ve been through.

    Gracie7 !! Hilarious — Texting for Obama…. And I’m really sorry for the name confusion — that must have been a shock. “Grace” (if that is her name) must be making the rounds.

    I apologize if I’ve missed any other new friends — there was a lot to slog through up there and we might have missed you in the confusion.


  334. Prolix: We recommend that you stop watching cable and network news for a couple of reasons: a.) They’re not going to tell you the truth without a thick media filter. If you are one of those people who can see through the filter, your blood pressure will suffer. and b.) they wouldn’t behave the way they do if there wasn’t money in it either from satisfying or shocking their audiences. So, if you don’t watch, that will be reflected in their Nielson ratings and in the ad sales. If you have TiVO or a DVR, your cable or satellite company does disk diagnostics every day (at 3:00am to be precise. Insomniacs know this). They pass this information onto the broadcast and cable companies. So, don’t watch and they will start to get the message.
    CNN might be dry but the media filter is mercifuly absent.

  335. Relieved Black Man: The reason we removed them is because we don’t tolerate racism and recognize the real thing when we see it. We have a number of african american regulars here as well.
    Our dislike of Obama has absolutely nothing to do with his skin color. We simply think he is unready to be president and see some uncomfortable similarities between him and George Bush.
    That is not to say that we can’t see what is coming wrt to the media’s upcoming treatment of Obama. That is all too predictable.

  336. “I just registered at Talkleft as “Grace” and everyone thought I was a troll. Now I understand why. I guess I’ll be “Gracie7″ here so there is no confusion.”

    Niiiiiiice. It is my name, and I post pretty rarely at Politico and sometimes FirstRead (like, a few times a week), and nowhere else. So it’s unlikely that I’m the root of the forced name change.

    I’m also not a troll, by definition. I came over to talk with you, not bait and enrage, but it looks like that’s not going to happen. So best of luck with your candidate — and if Hillary gets the nomination, I’ll be voting for her.

  337. What a load of CRAP! I am not voting for Hillary because of her own lies and misrepresentation not because of anything Obama has done or not done. You can use that wheel to reflect the Hillary supporters also. I think they are in the “Tantrum” stage now. If you can’t play my way then I’m not going to play. How childish.
    Not an Obama troll….Just a white femail over 50.

  338. Doesn’t sound like you’re much of a Democrat at all. There’s nothing wrong with that, but that’s what it is.

  339. “All that are thinking of not voting in the GE if Hillary isn’t the nominee, should consider writing in Hillary instead. Send a clear message to the DNC that those that support Hillary won’t be swayed by their despicable tactics of discounting FL and MI.”

    ACK!! NO!! The worst thing you can do is vote third party, write-in, or stay home. That is a VOTE FOR OBAMA…and remember, many states do not tabulate write-ins and some don’t permit them…this is NOT a good idea. To defeat BO you have to cast a vote for McCain. As to the message, oh, They will get the message!! Nothing spells it out like defeat…

  340. Wow. I’m impressed. Really, really impressed. Why didn’t I find this kind of blog when I was pulling my hair out since January! Ahhhhh. A breath of fresh air. Thank you for the chart. I’m going to email this to my mom.

  341. Why do you people even claim to be democrats if you’ll vote for McCain instead of Obama? Do you care about the makeup of the Supreme Court? Do you care about US tax policy, US health care policy or foreign policy? Are you really so mad about Obama running a good campaign (note my definition of good: winning by the metric he needs to win by. I’m not going to debate who’s been disgusting and divisive in the campaign since that’s a subjective subject)?

    During the last year I’ve come to hate HRC, actually both Clintons. They make me sick. The thought of her being my candidate is repulsive, but she’d have my vote in the general to end the republican executive run. I’d choke when I was doing it, but I’d do it. It’s childish to abandon your core beliefs for spite. Unless, of course, they’re not your core beliefs and you’re simply fueled by the fight.

  342. cheryl why do you claim to be a democrat? If you’re going to throw your vote away on Obama, isn’t that the same as really voting mccain? if you really cared abut the supreme court you’d vote for hillary instead of the people that support obama and refused to filibuster alito and roberts. Some of us are gay men, and obviously your side has decided that African Americans are more important than gay members of the party, so enough solidarity, I think I’ll go with lower taxes.

    Cheryl, we’re not mad, stop playing the insolent boyfriend role. We are resolved to not let an unexperienced charlatan like Obama become president. If you think Obama ran a good campaign, you’re just not very bright. He race baited african americans, while at the same time using and allowing his supporters to use some of the vilest sexist rhetoric imaginable (you know like actually killing sen. clinton).

    Cheryl, see what joining a cult does to you? It makes you hate irrationally How can you hate sen clinton, do you know her personally? reminds me how the republicans whipped up “hate” of terrorists to justify war in iraq. I don’t hate Obama, I just think he should never be president/

    Cheryl, finally we are not abandoning our core beliefs. The dem party has. They think that by brainwashing people like you that they don’t need us anymore. That’s fine with us. Now take your ball and go play somewhere else

  343. I see, you’re thoughtful and progressive and I’m throwing my vote away. Gee, you’ve convinced me now. I belong to the psycho cult of people who look at what’s right in front of them and make a decision. I was talking about my opinion. I’m not throwing gays or women or children under a bus by voting for Obama. I’m voting for someone I can take pride in (and I’m white, so I’m not talking racial pride). And to clarify, I do hate the way the Clintons present themselves – the patronizing, arrogant, condescending, calculated bullshit approach of their campaign leaves me cold, but I shouldn’t have said I hate them personally. Of course I don’t hate them personally. I don’t wish them harm or ill. I just wish them gone from the election.

    As for the insolent boyfriend, I don’t even know what that means. A lot of people sure seem mad on this board. And they strike out by calling others “brainwashed” or “cult joiners” or “race baiters” or “misogynists” or new to the party. I’m not new to the party. I’ve been voting for over 20 years and it’s my right to say what I want to say just like you have your right. So if I want to shove my ball down your throat here for a little while, I think I’ll just do that.

  344. Hi,

    I’m a stereotypical Obamaniac. But I swear I’m not going to try to lecture anyone or espouse any incendiary things. Please just hear me out in the name of political discourse. I’ll make it short I swear. I’m white, middle class male with a college degree living in Chicago so I basically fit the profile to a T. I have nothing against Hillary, and I’m an ardent supporter of equal rights no matter who or what you are across any lines. I know things have gotten heated in the last few months between the two camps, but can we please PLEASE acknowledge that we live in a two party system, and it is vastly preferable to have a Democrat win in November than a Republican, especially a Republican like McCain. There has been too much blood shed in the last 8 years, too many innocent people have been killed and wounded in our policy of militarism, and too much irreversible damage has been done to our environment to let personal differences get in the way of the larger picture. We need to clean house and that means a Democrat, no matter who they are, to shake up all the appointed positions in the branches of government. This sort of hateful stubborness will ruin everything. Who the fuck cares who’s right or wrong about the candidate, we need someone asides from McCain and if you don’t realize that, then I guess I there’s nothing more than can be said.

  345. Hi Jeff,

    First, I’ll say that being accused of hatefulness doesn’t endear me to you. But for now I’ll ignore that insult and focus on a question.

    Four years ago, I had a painful conversation with a friend who was a Vietnam vet. By this time then, Kerry had the nomination wrapped up and we were talking about the general election.

    He was concerned because he remembered Kerry’s Anti War days and Kerry throwing his medals over the White House fence. And he wasn’t sure about being able to vote for the guy who did that. No matter HOW he performed his actual service.

    Later in the campaign the PHOTOSHOPPED picture surfaced of Kerry and Jane Fonda at an antiwar rally.

    And somewhere along the way, the Swiftboat attack.

    THESE are the issues that lost Kerry the election. Some of them were known to be lies — but in the end it didn’t make any difference.


    So Jeff,

    My question is this: How will Obama address the serious allegations against him? Craig Crawford is already telling us about how McCain attacking Obama.

    So far I don’t have any confidence in Obama’s ability to counter these accusations.

    What do you think? Does he have a chance? Does he have a plan?

    I’m NOT going to fall in that trap again. I spent months doing what Kerry wouldn’t do — defended him against the “Swiftboaters”

    I’m not doing that again. As far as I’m concerned, that’s the candidates job.

  346. “So if I want to shove my ball down your throat here for a little while, I think I’ll just do that.”

    um, no you won’t sister. See this is just the kind of nasty violent imagery you obama nuts use. Its scary and we won’t tolerate it here. I think you are crazy. you are filled with hate and I do believe you would love harm to befall Clinton. It’s people like you that lead to totalitarian regimes where your vile rhetoric is turned into reality. you disgust me. if you are a woman (and I don’t believe you are) you need some serious deprogramming; get the fuck on now before I have to show you the door…..

  347. OMG!!!! OMFG!!!!

    Is there ANYTHING that evil Spawn of Satan bitch won’t change to win? Now she wants to change the number of hours in a day!??!!!

    Clinton says low point in her campaign has been

    “Just being sleep-deprived and trying to get to more places than there are more hours in the day to possibly cover,” she said.

  348. jeff take a look at the psycho crap your fellow obama suporters spew (cheryl) and you’ll know why we can”t every allow these people to be anywhere near the presidency. McCain is not nearly as scary as the Obama Nation

  349. lol, first off, fantastic post.

    to be upfront, i do support Obama. But believe me, the point of this post is well taken. I cringe each and every single time an Obam-ite starts frothing at the mouth. And i wish i could put a muzzle on them…but then again, this is the internet.

    I think its vaguely hypocritical for Obama supporters to talk about a unity party when they are every bit as guilty as avid Clinton supporters when it comes to spewing online-swill. I just don’t understand how they can do this when it runs so against the message of the candidate they support so fervently.

  350. gary – you’re really out of control – you were the one who put the ball metaphor into play – “having something shoved down your throat” is not code for violent, crazy behavior, it’s a common phrase. Do you know I’ve never killed anybody, I’ve never even had a speeding ticket. I pay all my taxes, I volunteer in my community, I pick up stray litter from the road when I walk my dog. My whole point to you was that the rhetoric is turned up when a law abiding citizen such as myself can’t say anything in support of my candidate without being accused of being a traitor or a cult member. And, I am a woman, though why that should make me going running to another woman candidate I’ll never understand.

    If you want to kick me off this board for having an opinion, go ahead. Luckily in the real world my vote counts for as much as yours.

  351. Oh, and as for pushing for unity, I guess my point wasn’t clear. Sorry, I don’t really write on line (felt compelled after reading this thread). I was trying to say that my dislike (not hate, I stand corrected) for the Clinton campaign is probably as entrenched as so many people’s dislike is for Obama, but I still consider myself a democrat over being an Obama supporter.

  352. Since you’re talking about made-up scandals… What do Clinton supporters think of the “Bill’s a philandering philanderer who slept with all of these women since leaving the White House!” story that’s bound to show up if Hillary’s the nominee? (True or not)

    How do you think that would be countered, in a general election, and what do you think the effect would be?

  353. cheryl, the fact that you don’t consider shoving a ball down someone’s throat violen really speaks volume about who you are. Of course its not coded, its pretty literally violent. I don’t care who you vote for. I’m just glad that you are generous enough to show the rest of us what nutjobs you and a lot of Obama supporters are. Really, doesn’t he deserve better than that. It makes me feel sad for him and you. And I didn’t accuse you of treason, just insanity.

  354. no cheryl, tell the truth, it is hate. I called you out and now you’re backing up. Own your hate. Don’t tone it down for us.

  355. ella sources? links? besides we’ve heard that all before. at the height of the impeachment mess Bill’s popularity never dropped below 60%. I’ll take that over Rezko, Ayers, Michelle”I hate america and whitey” Obama anyday….

  356. Ella, Are you saying that if Obama is nominated he will attempt to distract us by talking about President Clinton’s sex drive?

    (shaking my head)

    I don’t think that’s going to work. But, hey — go for it.

  357. Gary – you’re welcome. You seem totally disconnected from the reality of what I’m trying to say. I’m never ACTUALLY shoved anything down a person’s throat and I doubt I ever will. Growing up I felt like I had catholicism shoved down my throat, but again, there wasn’t actually a priest there shoving his fist down my throat. It’s just an expression. I went to a woman’s college and I thought I had political correctness shoved down my throat but again nobody ACTUALLY touched me. You don’t seem interested in knowing why some people don’t like your candidate. Do you want discourse or do you want to lecture. Because if you simply want to lecture, go ahead, but you don’t change a person’s mind by talking down to her.

  358. Yes, Gary, I hate the way the Clintons ran this campaign. I hate Hillary as a politician, but again, for the third time, I don’t hate her as a person. I don’t hate anyone as a person except this guy who pushed me off the football bleachers in high school b/c he thought it was cool to pick on people and I broke my arm. Him, he’s on my permanent list.

  359. cheryl you can rant all you want here, but when you use threats of violence nobody will listen to what you have to say. Don’t do it anymore, and please don’t try to rationalize your hate to me. I’m not lecturing you. i know i’ll never change your mind, and i don’t want to. I just will not tolerate your hate and violent rhetoric as a way of promoting your candidate.

  360. Cheryl4443, sweetie —

    My good wolf is telling me to keep fighting for Hillary. But my bad wolf is really looking forward to watching McCain light into Obama this fall.

    You hate the way Clinton ran this campaign?

    (Rolling on the floor laughing!)

  361. Yes, I’m a metaphorical serial killer. God forbid. You know what, there’s no point in arguing with you. I have my side, you have yours. I wish you well (or don’t I?…..) Now I know why I don’t talk with people in cyberspace. There’s no nuance, no chance to really know anyone. I found this whole link offensive and I lowered myself to participate. At least I can live well knowing either Obama will be president come January or McCain will maintain my sweet cap gains rate for the future.

  362. well just rise yourself on out of here. jeez and she shows her true ambivalence as she leaves. what a tool. take it easy sweetie…..

  363. Hi Katie,

    No, I wasn’t thinking of Obama pushing that story, I was thinking of the media — I agree that some of the coverage has been eyebrow-raising, and it was the media’s hysteria that made the Swift Boat nonsense such a huge thing.

    I’m not accusing President Clinton of actually having done anything at all; but I think someone will, somewhere, and it seems like the sort of thing the media would chew on for months. What’s the push-back on a whispering campaign like that?

  364. Oh, I didn’t say I was leaving, I just said i lowered myself. You’re such a literalist, I would have figured you to see the difference.

    The sweetie’s just charming – I actually don’t mind. I call everyone honey as a reflex – no one’s ever belted me for it. I’m a woman though, maybe that makes it different.

    I’m sure I’ll be back. I do have to get out this afternoon to kick a few dogs on my way to volunteer at the local food bank. One of those claims is false – hazard to wager a guess Gary?

  365. Ella,
    Is making-the-other-person-answer first something you learned at the Obama Blogger Training Camp?

    It’s so much like Obama’s debate and speech performances.

    Sweetie, we’ve SEEN how the Clinton’s handle adversity. They’ve been doing it for 18 years.

    You Obama fans are hoping to win our votes — isn’t that why you’re here? Or is it just to stir up trouble?

    So, convince me. How will YOUR candidate handle the attacks?

  366. I appreciate the level-headed responses to my previous post. I didn’t mean to accuse individuals of being hateful or stubborn, as much as to characterize the overall feeling of this debate being pretty aggressive and intense. We’re all frustrated with what’s been happening in our communities and in our country and abroad and so I think it’s really hard to not get fired up about this stuff. I just think that McCain isn’t really that fearsome, the GOP is a huge mess and he’s got an awful lot in his past that’s going to cause him problems (e.g. lobbyist mess). I would guess that sooner or later a video of him cussing out a reporter or something like that will surface on top of all his various lobbyist ties and shifting policy positions. I think that it’s tempting for both sides of the democratic party to throw up their hands and get angry, but we shouldn’t let anger cloud our judgment in one of the most important elections of the century. There are always yahoos spouting bullshit on the internet and we need to not let that get under our skin, and focus, with a sense of (legitimate) optimism on the general.

    All that said, if I were a Limbaugh drone or a hardcore Republican, I would be all over these messageboards spreading hate between Obamaniacs and Clintonites. It’s literally the only way the GOP is not going to get slaughtered in the fall, if we can’t come together and knock them back into whatever hole they crawled out of a decade ago. We have to, as a netroots community, bridge this divide. If someone pisses you off, ignore them, take some deep breaths, and let’s remember that the Democratic party is in the best position it’s been in for decades if we can overcome our personal differences.

  367. LOL katie, you’re awesome!!! you shouldwrite right an Oblama Blogger Training Camp manual so the rest of us know what to look for : )

  368. “We’re all frustrated”

    ch 1. be sure to use the first person plural as much as possible to develop comraderie with the enemy….

  369. Cheryl443 — Gary’s no tool and you’re banned.

    Site Administrators Cheryl went to far and directly insulted Gary.

  370. (nodding)

    Yep, Gary — that’s one of the first things ‘they’ do.

    (before they relax and reveal their true characters)

  371. McCain’s “oldness”.? I’m not sure that’s a word, but I get what you mean. Obama supporters are homophobic, sexist, violent, and ageist. Am I forgetting anything?

    and your kidding about richardson right? now there’s a tool….

  372. I’m sorry, Gary — I deleted that comment from Cheryl …

  373. thanks katie. Is it just me or do you think that a lot of teenage boys are out there impersonating women? I shouldn’t even bother to engage them…

  374. oh, and to take a page from the manual:

    Cheryl, sweetie, again, doesn’t Obama deserve better than people like you? Think about it, it keeps me up sometimes worrying about how his supporters damage his reputation. It makes me sad : (

  375. so let me get this straight . . .you guys on team clinton are simultaneously accusing the obama campaign of playing dirty to win, but also don’t think he can be strong enough to fight mccain and the swift boat attacks in the fall? you think sexism was a legitimate issue but racism wasn’t? and you think that hillary had this election stolen from her when she enjoyed the name recognition ad the presumptive nominee status for over a year? and we obama supporters are the brainwashed ones? come on! i understand you are upset. i would be too if my candidate was poised to lose the nomination. but i would think long and hard before rushing to a protest vote. if all the issues that allegedly led you to hillary really matter to you, come november you will come back into the dem tent. we hope you do.

  376. Danica, I

    don’t get it, first you say that we’re racist and you don’t need us/ Then you end by saying you hope we will come back in nov. Not. going. to. happen. What you guys don’t get is that we’re not “upset”. —as an aside, you yourself are using the same kind of sexist rhetoric that infects all parts of the obama campaign/supporters—We are resolved that the Obama is not worthy to be the President of this country. It’s that simple. we’ve done the research. we know who he really is. we are not swayed by cheap promises of hope and change. The more you look at Obama the more he looks like GWB. No intellectual curiosity, disdain for the working glass, empty promises of unity, not to mention trying to steal elections. Obama is more of the same than McCain could ever be.

  377. Katie, in a more direct response to your question about Obama defending himself, I think that many people would agree that Chicago has one of the most brutal and old-fashioned political climates in the country. Daley is like almost Tammany-esque and corruption and underhanded dealings are everywhere. Hell, the Water Department was dealing heroin a few years ago. That’s a very tough environment for a young politician to even get his voice heard in, let alone climb the ladder to the national level. I think that he is direct in his defense and he can play hardball with any politician. I also think that he can use his perceived lack of experience to his advantage, which I believe he has done well, by disassociating himself with what has become the norm in Washington politics.

    Also, in reference to my usage of third person plural: I’m under the assumption that we’re all Democrats here, hence the royal ‘We’. If that’s incorrect, I didn’t mean to lump anyone in with something they aren’t into. As far as being called homophobic, sexist, violent (?), and ageist in one fell swoop, uh…I’m gonna have to object to that. If that’s going to be the tone of this thread then I can see that an attempt to have a rational discussion has no place here.

  378. jeff,
    using “we” is a very old rhetorical tool, so old in fact that it has become cliche. It immediately sets a patronizing tone.

    Same goes for Danica’s “I understand you’re upset” comment. It’s sexist and demeaning. Men have been using that little tool to delegitimize women’s concerns for ages.

    As for the other comments, they weren’t directed to you personally, but another commenter who was exhibiting a lot of the abusive behavior that we document here.

  379. …although I do think you exhibit ageism by commenting on McCain’s “oldness”

  380. GaryChapelHill,

    Re: “The more you look at Obama the more he looks like GWB.”

    Please explain to me how Obama, former president of Harvard Law Review, former constitutional law lecturer at UofC, darling of the academic policy experts has less “intellectual curiosity” than McCain, who graduated at the bottom of his class, admits he knows nothing about economics, attacks those who he disagrees with, and can’t distinguish between Sunni/Shiite.


  381. especially when $120 million woman of the people said she didn’t want to listen to scholars and economists when she tried to push through the gas tax holiday?

  382. “darling of the academic policy experts” you’re kidding me right? I don’t want a President who is a “darling” of anybody. and as for McCain not distinguishing between sunni/shiite, that may be true, but I believe it was Obama who only this week said that we need to get out of Iraq so that we can have more Arabic translators in Afghanistan even though they don’t speak that language there. Hillary is smarter than both of them put together. Oh and then there is the latest Iran is a threat/Iran is not a serious threat conundrum Obama has just laid out there. Obama is a shape shifter…whatever anyone wants him to be. Only problem is that in the end that means he represents nothing. And as for his degrees and university positions, they don’t impress me, actions do. Hillary has accomplished more in her liftime than Obama can ever hope to . As Katie has been saying, he hasn’t even really had a full time job. I could go on with the GW comparisons. Obama doesn’t like to work, he likes things handed to him. He is arrogant. He has a terminal case of foot in mouth disease. I could go on and on

  383. Obama certainly has things he has yet to learn, and perhaps he is sometimes inconsistent (though I think he’s basically saying that Iran is a major threat, but not nearly as major as the USSR was). But do you actually think McCain is a better choice?

  384. john, actually I think Hillary is head and shoulders above both of them and I still think she has a good chance at the nomination. If not I certainly do think McCain is a better choice. You know the old “go with the devil you know” . Obama will be four more years of dereliction at the helm as far as I’m concerned. Look at who supports him, the do-nothing dems in congress. And I’ve never voted for a republican in my life. Maybe you guys should be taking a look at obama’s biggest fans online Arianna, markos, Aravosis…all former republicans…doesn’t that make you a little nervous?

  385. Jeff,

    “if I were a Limbaugh drone or a hardcore Republican, I would be all over these messageboards spreading hate between Obamaniacs and Clintonites.”

    Yeah, but what they did was so much more clever. They allowed the Democrat party to defeat itself by getting us to nominate the most unelectable candidate we had.

    We managed to nominate a flowery speaker who has never done much more than flowery speaking. He’s so inexperienced, it scares half of the party to even think of putting him in office.

    Am I concerned about my Democratic ideals? Sure I am, but that’s why I’m glad Congress and the Senate have Democratic majorities. Let them do their jobs for a change.

    As far as McCain and his “100 years of war” — McCain has a son in Iraq. I doubt very seriously that he wants the war to continue more than it has to. I do believe, with McCain’s military background, he might be able to end it quicker with better results than Obama. McCain is not stupid, he is bipartisan, and I guess I’ll have to live with him for 4 years. It could always be a lot worse.

  386. gracie–he hasn’t been nominated yet : )

  387. Gary, I think I’m going to take a break from this thread for a while. With the news of Senator Kennedy’s brain tumor, I just don’t have the heart for this.

    What do you think?

  388. katie, I agree. I was so involved here, I just now saw the post. I’m sure everyone here can agree to take a break to send our thoughts to the Kennedy family.

  389. So your argument is basically that nobody really knows Obama very well, and there’s a chance that he might end up… what? Obama has spent the last 10 years as an elected Democratic politician. He is supported almost exclusively (politically and personally) by progressives. He has racked up one of the most progressive voting records in his time in office. And you think the pro-war, lifetime Republican McCain might be a better choice for changing the direction of our nation? I just don’t get it. Sure there’s a small chance (~1%) that Obama will turn his back on everything he’s built his political life and personal reputation on. But there’s a 100% chance that McCain will continue Bush’s failed policies.

  390. Holy mother of Koresh, the sweeties are still trying?

  391. nodding Yes, myqi2xu — but we’re trying to wind it down. I just don’t have the heart for it since the news of Senator Kennedy’s tumor.

  392. Here was the post this infestation inspired me to write at correntewire:

    An Open Letter to Oborg Trolls

    After nearly six straight months of this, I have had enough. Stop wasting my time.

    First of all, I owe you NOTHING. I do not have to answer your questions, nor do I have to explain to you why I am supporting Hillary Clinton.

    I tried constructive engagement, but that’s really just a game of blogospheric whack-a-mole. It’s like Groundhog Day, arguing the same arguments over and over.

    I know everything I need to know (and then some) about Hillary Clinton. Nothing you can say will persuade me that she’s evil. She is not the Antichrist, nor is she married to him.

    I have looked, listened to and read about Barack Obama. I have heard all the arguments in his favor. I do not think he is qualified to be President of the United States.

    I believe Hillary Clinton is not only qualified to be President, she is the sole remaining candidate who is.

    I am not a racist, but I am an asshole. I made my peace with that years ago. Although I am a liberal, I am not a pacifist. I am the type that brings a gun to a knife fight.

    Because I am a guest here in the Mighty Corrente Building, I am polite and courteous to my hosts. You on the other hand, will have to settle for rude and surly.

    If you come here repeating lies, half-truths, innuendo and other recycled right-wing meme about Hillary, her family or her supporters, you are not only wasting my time you are annoying me. That will make me an annoyed asshole.

    Please don’t insult my intelligence by trying to schooze me with some smarmy talk about unity. You, your candidate and your troll friends made this mess, it’s not my job to clean it up for you.

    I’m not ready to make nice.

  393. OK — now I’ve got a secret crush on {{{myiq2xu}}}


  394. katie, do you think it is too soon to put up a post on the primary?, I ‘ve got one ready to go…

  395. Gary, I think it’s a great time. Then riverdaughter can post the cocktail hour later.

  396. ok, cool…

  397. I am a Green party member who likes Obama more than Clinton but will vote for whoever gets the nomination (and I voted for Gore in 2000).

    From the comments here, there’s a lot more animosity towards Obama than love of Clinton among Clinton supporters. Negative emotions can lead to impeachment proceedings. They can lead to supporting whoever runs against the candidate you hate. But that isn’t going to translate into anything third-party or independent or any other fantasies some are weaving here.

  398. “Please don’t insult my intelligence by trying to schooze me with some smarmy talk about unity. You, your candidate and your troll friends made this mess, it’s not my job to clean it up for you.

    I’m not ready to make nice.”

    You are in the fortunate enough position that you never need to relinquish your opinion, and that as most liberal minded Americans over the last 8 years have likely noticed, pretty much the worst person ever could be elected into office and it won’t totally ruin your life or the lives of your families and friends. However, there are hundreds of millions of people around the world who aren’t quite as fortunate. Policy decisions made in the US regarding food and fuel prices that amount to financial inconvenience here can result in famine, rioting, and war throughout the third world. Crucial decisions about the environment and the future direction of our nations foreign policy will have to be made in the next 4-8 years. I am personally of the opinion, based both on my philosophical convictions and what I’ve seen played out in front of me, that the Democratic party, with a Democratic president (not just House and Congress deadlocked against the executive branch) will be vastly more compassionate, humane, wise, and effective in dealing with these issues. Therefore, whoever the candidate is in November, Hillary or Barack, I think it’s imperative the Democrats unite and vote for them. I am, as I said earlier, an Obama supporter, but I would vote for Hillary (not entirely happily) if I had to, because it’s for the greater good. Everyone here knows that it’s LIKELY (not definite) that Obama will be the nominee, and I have to say that I’m alarmed by the hostility that people seem to express towards him and his supporters. It’s really awesome to be right and be a self-professed asshole and not listen to other people, but there are some people, myself included, and plenty of Hillary supporters included (reference the Gallup poll trend) that think that it’s more important to get a Democrat in there no matter what, pride swallowed or otherwise.

    If begging you to unify with the majority (by every metric) of the party is “schoozing”, then maybe I’m “schoozing” you. Maybe I’m even schmoozing you a little. If you would prefer to view calls for unification as some sort of personal attack or call for you to cast aside your beliefs, that’s fine. There are a lot of people both at home and abroad who this matters an awful lot for, though.

  399. […] missed this on Sunday but the illustrious Riverdaughter does it again… so listen up ’sweeties’!!! F^*) that s%$*. Listen, “cate” and […]

  400. to ighway:

    Addressing some of your points:

    The word “bitter” is simply a pejorative form of “angry” and I do resent your use of it in characterizing Hillary supporters’ response to her apparent failure to win the nomination. But anger is an appropriate response to the conniving behavior we have watched among the DNC, the media and the Obama campaign, which has made racism — both the direct AND the reverse kinds — the cornerstone of its appeal.

    You write that Obama has had more years as an “elected official”, yet most of those years were as a part-time Illinois State Senator, made even more part-time by the fact that Obama was so often absent.

    Since Obama himself has admitted that he has little managerial skill, we can take it as a given that he neither chose his campaign strategy nor hired the personnel to implement it. I put it to you that Obama’s campaign was pre-packaged by David Axelrod and a handful of Wall Streeters — whom I could name, but won’t — and that Obama was recruited as the candidate after the fact.

    For those of us whose primary concern has been universal healthcare, Obama would be a waste of time as our President. The partial insurance he’s advocating would leave our health care situation at square one. McCain wouldn’t be any better — with respect to health care — but with McCain we have the potential for him to be President for a shorter time. In other words, if Obama were elected, we’d be stuck with him for eight years, whereas we could be rid of McCain in four.

    Also, many of us who observe Clinton, Obama and McCain as they participate in Senate debates as part of our jobs have formed a higher opinion of McCain than of Obama. Clinton is by far the brightest of the three, but Democrats tend to underestimate McCain’s skills and his intellect, in much the same way as they overestimate Obama.

    Even with the votes of Hillary supporters like me, I don’t believe that Obama could win in the general election. We may dislike Karl Rove, but the figures he has put forward in the past week clearly show that Obama is the weaker candidate by far than Clinton.

    I’d like to point out that while many of us consider ourselves “Democrats”, the Democratic party does not own us — or our votes. Furthermore, the DNC is badly in need of a serious shaking-up, which they won’t get unless there is a powerful wakeup call. That’s why I will not support Obama, and will most likely support McCain.

  401. […] Posts Sunday: SweetiesClinton Cocktail Party: KY and OR ReturnsTuesday: Bird BrainsHillary Clinton Must be the […]

  402. […] From Riverdaughter (warning: if you don’t like the pocket guide, you will really not like this; if you ever had a delusion that I was a pro-Clinton blogger, just read that link and that blog – now that is what pro-Clinton sounds like): […]

  403. Saw Obamabot Matthew Dowd on one of the morning shows yesterday. He claimed that Hillary is losing because we wanted her to be a Mother and instead she became a Father and that she “just went too far”.

    Can you imagine? If they think that this is the way to heal the rift, they are delusional.

  404. If no one minds, I’d just like to interrupt for a moment and give bauersox at 10:20 a standing ovation.

    I will not be voting for John McCain, but I will be voting for the only candidate ready to be President on Day One.

    We are already organizing the Write-In campaign in New Hampshire, where she turned it around the first time.

    We’re still pissed that BHO’s very first victim (right before the NH primary, of course) was her NH campaign manager and Jeanne Shaheen’s husband, Billy Shaheen.
    Overnight, Billy Shaheen suddenly became a racist, after working on civil rights issues his entire life.
    Imagine that.
    (A reminder — JShaheen lost to JSununu in 2004 because of the GOP phone-banking felonies. We will vote for her to further make our point.)

    I will not be voting for BHO at the top of the ticket — unless maybe he asks Geraldine Ferraro to be his running mate. And, if he kisses her ass after she spits in his face, he might get my vote.

    If BHO is at the top of the ticket, we actually think there’s a chance that we can get enough write-ins for her to beat Obama in NH.
    He will not beat JMcC under any circumstances.

    We think it would be a gas if she actually took a state via write-in. I think there’s a few states where she might get 34% of the vote if we really organized.

    Just to be on the record:
    We’re still hoping the DNC will come to their senses.
    I will vote for HRC for President.
    I will vote for BHO if he is the VP candidate — nothing more.

  405. Tim McC (Obama supporter), this is not true:
    “But lets play a little game. Let’s say the superdelegates gives Senator Clinton the nomination. Guess who Senator Clinton will NEED if she wants to win? The Obama supporters.”

    Do the math.
    Obama won Kansas, he won’t win Knasas and she won’t win Kansas..
    He won WA; she will win WA. He won OR; she will win OR. Et cetera — “Blue States” in other words.

    Clinton won NH, TN, OH, PA, FL, MI, WV, KY…
    … … the states that Bill Clinton won, making him the only twice-elected Democratic president in my lifetime.
    (And I’m one of those OLD hags.)

    The voters who win elections have been labelled “Reagan Democrats” again since GWB re-won them back in 2000.
    They were called “Reagan DEMOCRATS” for 12 years, after Jimmy Carter lost them (because of Ted Kennedy) in 1980.

    But they were “CLINTON Democrats” in 1992 and in 1996. And if CLINTON is the candidate in 2008, they have proven that they will be Clinton DEMOCRATS in November.

    It appears the DNC agrees with you — that you need us and we need you.
    But you should know this — you need us and you do not have us. We do NOT need you.

    Just fyi, that’s what Clinton calls The Map vs. The Math.

    If BHO can win Kansas in November, I congratulate you.
    But please understand, Clinton can win a whole host of swing states without the voters who blindly worship The Obamessiah.

  406. Oh, btw, I actually lived in Greece for a bit over two years.
    And I have also travelled extensively to well over 30 countries around the world, including Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Mid-East.

    “Elitism” has nothing to do with how much money the Clintons make. “Elitism” has to do with the absurd assumptions elitists make about the people that they are currently talking down to.

    p.s. Some of us also have a college degree!
    (Or three.)

  407. […] From Riverdaughter (warning: if you don’t like the pocket guide, you will really not like this): […]

  408. From Dan, at 8:36:
    “Just what exactly did the Obama campaign do when it comes to race-baiting and misogyny?

    Dan, I actually have a list of 20. I’ll give you the very first one:

    Back last November, when we were just starting out and there were ten Democratic candidates, Barack Obama had a fundraiser at the Apollo Theatre in Harlem.

    Chris Rock introduced BHO by warning the audience they would be “embarassed” if they voted for “the white lady.”

    When I wrote the Obama campaign (as I was completely undecided at that point) the message I got back was basically, “Chris Rock is a comedian. LIGHTEN UP!!!”

    That’s the last day Barack Obama had a chance at earning my vote.

    I’ve answered your question. (And, again, I have 20 more, if you want them.) In turn, could you answer one of mine?

    “Some” in the Obama camp were “concerned” about HRC’s comments regarding LBJ and MLK. Can you tell me exactly what they were “concerned” about?

    See, before BHO got so touchy about race, I didn’t realize that LBJ and MLK were different colors. It’s BHO who pointed that out to me.
    So… Who’s the racist? Hillary Clinton, for giving credit to Democratic President LBJ, who has the greatest civil rights records of any President except Abraham Lincoln?

    Why doesn’t BHO want to give credit where credit is due? I’m “concerned” that BHO might just be a white racist. What’s the “concern” from BHO(D) regarding HRC(D) giving credit to LBJ(D)?

    Was it that, after working her entire life on civil rights, she had suddenly become a racist in the midst of running for POTUS in 2008?

    And, Dan, what do you think the media would have done if, last November, with ten candidates just entering the campaign, Bill Clinton would have introduced Hillary by telling the audience they would be “embarassed” if they voted for “the black guy”?

    As an Obama supporter, you are in puppy love.
    Yes, we feel like your parents, trying to warn you not to marry the smooth-talking hypocrite.

  409. re: “It’s kind of creepy, he resembles GW B more and more everyday.”

    Yes, I agree.
    Starting with…

    Have you noticed that the only candidates who don’t want to count all the votes are the candidates who would LOSE if all the votes were counted?

    Then there’s the “I’m a uniter, not a divider” thing. LMFAO with THAT one!
    Then there’s the “Weren’t Ronald Reagan and GHWB (noticably NOT Democrat Bill Clinton) GREAT Prezes?”
    Oh, and when Colin Powell showed a little puppy love, it was “Isn’t Colin Powell smart?” Wasn’t said Colin Powell the very Liar who offered HRC and all of America and the world all the Bushit on Iraq??!!

    Yeah, it IS kind of creepy. BHO DOES resemble GWB more and more every day.

    I say to BHO, as Al Gore said to GWB in 2000:

  410. Okay, I’ve finally read every single comment now.
    I love you guys! (no sexism intended)

    One last comment, if I may?
    Re: “I also think that he can use his perceived lack of experience to his advantage, which I believe he has done well, by disassociating himself with what has become the norm in Washington politics.”


    This kind of thinking — against the man who most Independents love, a man who does cross the aisle on legislation, with his own name on campaign finance reform with the likes of Russ Feingold, and on education with the likes of Ted Kennedy, a moderate GOP maverick, Viet Nam POW, with a son currently serving in Iraq, the known enemy of pork-barrel spending in DC, a libertarian, who is also pro-comprehensive immigration reform, and pro-global warming, a longtime Senator that “Washington” can’t stand but who the media LOVES — is soooooooo naive.

    First, he can use his preceived “lack of experience” well??? It’s not preceived — I SERIOUSLY have a thicker resume than Barack Obama.
    I’m an adjunct professor myself, and I do it for shits and GIGGLES in my SPARE time (3 classes — “full time”).

    But if you don’t recognize that Barack Obama has proven himself to be one of the savviest POLITICIANS among us (and I don’t mean that as a compliment), then I predict right now you know every single verse to the “O-bam-a!” chant.

    First time my gut hurt with Obama?
    When his camp insisted that the media indicate that she she was “third” in Iowa (her name came in .03 behind JE.

    Second time?
    When he stepped on HRC’s victory speech in NV with his claim that he actually won Nevada when he “‘won” the delegate count.
    It smelled of Bush v. Gore immediately.
    Now we know… Like GWB, BHO likes delegates more than voters. After all, we have RULZ here against counting all the votes.

    Third time?
    Instead of winning PA by 10%, the BHO camp insisted that the media indicate that she won by 9.2%

    The last time?
    Just a couple of days ago, when he stepped on her KY victory speech a few moments in, to suddenly announce his fundraising numbers for the quarter.

    NO, BHO is a very savvy POLITICIAN. His supporters are fools if they don’t realize that.

    Thanks for letting me comment, riverdaughter et al. I have you in Favorites now and I’ll be back, if that’s okay.

    The pocket guide is BRILLIANT!
    I’m doing my part to send it around the world.

    Thanks again,
    jan in New Hampshire, the state that was first labelled “racist”*** by BHO because we didn’t fall into line.

    *** BHO: “Could it be that New Hampshire didn’t vote for us because of ‘The Bradley Effect’?
    (Look up “the Bradley Effect’ if you don’t recognize that as a racist implication towards NH voters.)

    Typing “Bradley” gave me one more thought for Obamaniacs:

    In 2000, I was present at an Official WMUR NH Debate when Bill Bradley called Al Gore “a liar.”
    In 2008, I watched an interview where BHO supporter Bill Bradley called Hillary Clinton “a liar.”
    I don’t want to be in the same Party with Bill Bradley anymore. I detest his divisiveness.

    Why would any Obamaniac believe that Hillary Clinton is the “divisive” one in the Democratic Party?
    Maybe you should start with BHO supporter Bill Bradley.

    Some other Obama campaign highlights:
    “Hillary Clinton is a monster… and PLEASE take that OFF the record.”
    “Hillary Clinton is a f ‘ing whore… and I’d rather be fired than apologize for saying it proudly at an Obama fundraiser.”

    No, the DNC isn’t loyal to us.
    Therefore, I have ZERO interest in being loyal to the DNC.

    Anyone else out there from a state where Hillary might take 34% as a write-in?
    My 84-yr-old mom and her 82-yr-old sister think Texas could be one of the ripe ones. They love feisty female leadership in Texas… Molly Ivins and Ann Richards to name a couple of giants
    (p.s. Obamaniacs, the “Annie Oakley” comment? SEXIST! The “six-shooter” comment? IGNORANT! The “bitter-guns-god” comments behind closed doors in SF? ELITIST!)

    Thx again. Sorry this is so long. Hopefully, I’ve given BHO supporters some facts.
    Hopefully, they’ll understand — before it’s too late — that the exit polls indicating that HRO supporters will not back Obama are screaming for their attention now, not in November when he’s tanking without us.

    If the ticket is Clinton/Obama, there’s a chance we have the WH for the next 16 years. She is a Clinton who, again, can clean up after a Bush and then hand VP BHO what Al Gore should have been handed in 2000.
    He can even assemble his own cabinet of advisors immediately and start planning for the world he wants to lead in 2016, when the new millenium can be re-set for Democrats and we can wipe Bush/Cheney 2000-2008 out of the history books forever.

    But if the ticket is Obama/I don’t care who, I think Obamaniacs need to get use to “President McCain.”
    And then… We’ll see ya in 2012.

  411. […] on the Kubler-Ross “stages of death” continuum. This is a good companion guide to the Obamaniac Behavior Cycle from a couple days […]

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