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Let’s Keep Our Heads, Conflucians

Oh, yeah, we’re really fired up and ready to eat the first water buffalo that strays into our path! Damn straight their going to pay for this. And they’re sending a troll over here?? Bring. It. On

Hang on a sec. Before we get too moblike, let’s think about this.

First, I want to lay out what I want to see happen with the party and this primary season:

  • I want the process to proceed fairly.
  • I want all voters to be counted and respected.
  • I want Florida and Michigan delegations counted so they make an impact on the nomination.
  • I want Obama and his enablers to back off.
  • I want Donna Brazile and anyone else at the DNC to stop putting their thumb on the scales for Obama and against Clinton.
  • I want the Rules and Bylaws Committee to waive the rules for FL and MI and seat all delegates as voted on by their voters on the dates of the primaries of those states without any “gifts” to Obama to make the process seem fair to him. The votes are votes. He lost Florida. He took his name off Michigan’s ballot in order to game the system. He obstructed revotes in both states. It’s too late to do one in Florida while they change their voting machines and almost too late in Michigan. He displayed poor sportsmanship and doesn’t deserve a redo at the expense of counting those votes toward the nomination. And Tom Harkin, the purpose of voting is to determine an outcome. It doesn’t matter if Michigan goes first or last, if their votes do not help determine an outcome, then the whole primary was a waste of time and the voters of Michigan will not forget come November. The time to act was back in February-March when counting the votes in both states would have had minimal impact. Obama squandered that opportunity. Tough for him.
  • The Haka needs to stop- NOW. Barry needs to cancel his “in-your-face'” celebration next Tuesday. I’ll give the Rules and Bylaws committee until May 31 to settle MI and FL and save face.

    In short, I want to give the DNC the opportunity to do the right thing. i don’t want to destroy the party. The party power structure seems to be doing a pretty good job of that on its own. And besides, there are worthy down ticket candidates that need our help in case of a McCain presidency. But the party can no longer count on my vote for president if it proceeds down this reckless path to a preordained Obama nomination by screwing his more worthy opponent. I am not advocating that anyone vote for McCain. Let him get his own party’s voters.

    Now, the haka towards the Hillary bloggers will start to get intense in the next couple of days. They are going to sound all shmoozy and reasonable. And we’re going to look like a bunch of frothing at the mouths nutcases if we don’t get control of our anger. While they pull, we will look like we’re pushing too hard. There is a better way to combat them. This whole situation is one big theater of the absurd. Keep that in mind. And don’t get mad, get even.

    169 Responses

    1. “I am woman, hear me roar!
      In numbers too big to ignore!”

      Helen Reddy

    2. riverdaughter – no vote FOR McCain…but also no vote for Obama.

      So write-in? Or vote downticket only?

    3. Well, FL/MI are almost completely devalued at this point. First of all, Hillary’s campaign was robbed of momentum early on. Second, w/ Edwards’ delegates largely going to BO, the net gain will be minimal.

    4. I also am not voting for anyone who endorsed Barry.

    5. (nodding) Can you make this a page? We get A LOT of visitors. This could be our petition.

      I’ll even promise to keep my spit in my own mouth through the summer.

    6. Shainzona: Follow your conscience. At this time, I can only say that they can not count on my vote. If you rule it out, you give them no room to maneuver. But at this time, I don’t feel like I could vote for Obama for president. Maybe VP, if I have no other choice. But president is right out.

    7. Having seen you smite more than a few trolls that came here to disrupt and annoy I believe that your way is the best. (Plus your blog, your rules)

      I have been at NQ many times where a troll(s) flits in and takes over the entire post because we all get so involved in letting them know that we don’t like, them, don’t agree with them, and just want them to go away. (Of course they are let know those things in perhaps a little stronger language than I have used. Okay a lot stronger language. Okay language that got my “nasty” mouth washed out with soap when I was a kid.)

      It may be momentarily satisfying to smite the troll and try to rhetorically “kill it” but in the long run you have given them the attention they desire and allowed them to direct the conversation away from any meaningful discourse.

    8. I absolutely agree with this statement:

      “Now, the haka towards the Hillary bloggers will start to get intense in the next couple of days. They are going to sound all shmoozy and reasonable. And we’re going to look like a bunch of frothing at the mouths nutcases if we don’t get control of our anger. While they pull, we will look like we’re pushing too hard. There is a better way to combat them. This whole situation is one big theater of the absurd. Keep that in mind. And don’t get mad, get even.”

      This is exactly the strategy I’m seeing — make those unreasonable, extremist, sore-loser Clinton supporters look mad, sad, angry. Like pathetic old ladies. I get it. I see the writing on the wall. We’ll be painted as the feminazis, the traitors, the pathetic old broads. Classic. Good analysis.

    9. Kbird: Possibly but I will have to do it later tonight. My Browser is somewhat FUBAR’d right at the moment.

    10. RD,

      I don’t even need to explain, but aren’t all the points below obsolete by now?

      First, I want to lay out what I want to see happen with the party and this primary season:
      – I want the process to proceed fairly.
      – I want all voters to be counted and respected.
      – I want Florida and Michigan delegations counted so they make an impact on the nomination.
      – I want Obama and his enablers to back off.
      – I want Donna Brazile and anyone else at the DNC to stop putting their thumb on the scales for Obama and against Clinton.

      Fair process? (Hillary’s) Voters counted and respected? Obama’s enablers backing off? Donna Brazile and the DNC stop rigging the process?

      What are we talking about here? What SHOULD have happened?

    11. Shainzona, if you want BO to lose, you have to vote McCain. Voting third-party or write-in, or staying home, will dilute the R vote and give it to BO. So consider that.

    12. riverdaughter: I will – and I will never compromise my principles in this election. I will not be blackmailed into doing something that, in my heart, I fear more than having McCain as POTUS.

    13. You go girl…two snaps!!

    14. DancingOpossum, I don’t get what you’re saying at all. If people who have voted Dem in the past and would have voted Dem this time around instead vote for Cynthia McKinney it does nothing to dillute the Repuke vote because those people weren’t going to vote for the Repuke anyway.

    15. As far as the process ‘proceeding fairly’ is concerned, there’s not much of it left.

      Just the umpteen caucus states disenfranchising the working poor; service class; military and elderly is enough for me to be quite angry with Democrats. The student element was outsized in the allocation of delegates — why should I be on board with this?

      The standard ObamaFan answer is “Hillary knew that there would be caucuses.” So? I’m not Hillary, and I think the process is bunk. I’m for keeping the initial caucus in IA as an introductory kickoff, but after that, forget about it.

      As far as voting for McCain is concerned — he does not get an automatic vote from me in anger. However, he’s getting a fair hearing, and I’ve sub’d to his site. After seeing how twisted the arguments against Hillary got, I have no reason to take ‘progressive’ opinion seriously.

      Finally, should there be an organized effort to move to McCain to make a statement to the Democratic party, I would strongly consider it and probably participate. I live in MD, and that Dems lost 25% of the black vote to a Republican scared the crap out of them. Power doesn’t give up power without a demand. As far as the just sit on your hands and don’t vote McCain is concerned — remember, that’s what DonnaB wants — ‘base, stay home.’

    16. Hi riverdaughter – I think my new petition is polite and covers all the points you mentioned.

      http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/hillaryormccain/

      If not, please delete as you see fit. Thanks!

    17. Spit works for me.

      Oh, and also an option to write in Hillary’s name in November.

    18. I will vote for McCain — not out of anger, but out of cold, consequential calculation, rooted in progressive values and interests.

      I will not “advocate” at this point, but when the time comes, I will make a case that some will find compelling (and some will not).

      For now, focus not on the pledges, but on the nomination – and the superdelegates’ FINAL judgment.

    19. tracey: This is exactly the strategy I’m seeing — make those unreasonable, extremist, sore-loser Clinton supporters look mad

      And that’s why using our votes strategically is not off the table, as far as I’m concerned.

      If you fall in line, the same Dem strategy of belittling women will be used in the future. If you want political respect, you flex your muscle and swing the vote.

    20. madamab: let us know how well you do with this petition. I’ve just signed and hope many many others will, too.

    21. Thank you, ronk. I will wait for your compelling case but let’s hope it doesn’t come to that. In the meantime, let’s keep our eyes on the prize. It’s not over until the balloons drop in Denver.

    22. ronk — can you offer any insight re: McDermott’s SD vote going to BO?

    23. As if to make my point, here is BTD on the latest about FL & MI

      Are Dems Determined To Lose FL and MI In The Fall?

      This is a telling story:

      The Associated Press interviewed a third of the [DNC Rules and Bylaws Committee] members and several other Democrats involved in the negotiations and found widespread agreement that the states must be punished for stepping out of line. If not, many members say, other states will do the same thing in four years.

      (Emphasis supplied.) The blithe lack of concern for November 2008 is revealing. Who cares about winning Florida and Michigan in the Fall? Apparently not the DNC. Let’s hope Barack Obama does care.

      Nice going. Way to destroy a party.

    24. Thanks, Shainzona – I will!

      It’s not too late for the DNC and the SD’s to do the right thing…

    25. Mad: I’m not deleting your petition. You have to follow your conscience and if other’s agree, fine with me. You don’t need any permission from me. Just remember, the goal is to make the process fair and to get the best candidate as nominee. If that means giving the DNC some wiggle room, fine. We don’t want to give them no options. We just need to stand firm and together.

    26. hlr — I have insight, but it’s not mine to offer.

    27. Madamab, I just signed on your petition.

      Spit, Spit, Spit on the DNC & Media & Blooger Boyz!

      We are not to be told what to do any longer by a party who does not care for us!

    28. riverdaughter: I agree…

    29. Riverdaughter said: “And we’re going to look like a bunch of frothing at the mouths nutcases if we don’t get control of our anger. ”

      And why we should care about what these people think, ones who take their koolaid without diluting it with water?

      I am advocating voting for McCain, for 3 reasons:
      1. We can’t let this farce of a primary result in a win….sweetie.

      2. Obama isn’t going to end the Iraq war, so it’s better to let the Republicans wallow in their war for a few more years than it is to elect someone who thinks we have 57 states. Yes, Bush the Republican got away with being stupid, but they won’t let a Democrat do it.

      3. Because Obama isn’t an advocate for Democratic causes. Why let the Democrats elect someone who isn’t actually an advocate for Democrats? The result of that is a coup on the Democratic party.

    30. hlr: If I were to guess about McDermott, it’s probably because he has gigantic legal bills from John Boehner’s nuisance lawsuit. He probably needed the money. I would guess that is how they are being picked off, one by one. We could play that game too. We could find out how much each superdelegate has in their campaign kitty and fundraise for the most likely target. It’s getting to be a very expensive campaign season. Someone on Obama’s side is fighting like crazy to keep it expensive. But money can’t buy everything.

    31. ronk — gotcha. You leave me with my rampant speculation 🙂

    32. Theresa: Because there are much better ways of frustrating them and driving them crazy. 😉

    33. RD: yep, the legal bills play a large part in my rampant speculation.

    34. P.S. — If it’s Obama v McCain, it’s indeed Politics of the Absurd. If fact, I was reviewing Ionescu, Genet and others just yesterday.

    35. I can still “purse my mouth” or “squint” or “blink” — right? (missing the thrill of targeted spitting already)

    36. To quench one speculation, Jim’s legal bills are covered – not an issue.

    37. ronk: Thanks for settling that question. So, he didn’t sell out for money. That’s nice to know. Well, someday, we will FINALLY know the truth.

    38. hlr, on May 16th, 2008 at 11:24 am Said:
      Well, FL/MI are almost completely devalued at this point. First of all, Hillary’s campaign was robbed of momentum early on.

      Exactly. That’s the issue. Damage already done.

    39. Someone please explain how my writing in Hillary or leaving the top spot blank would result in a BO win? As far as diluting the Republican vote, I want to do just that. God forbid, the GOP has a mandate to continue its international and domestic policies. God forbid.

    40. Kbird: Think “lite”.

    41. want the Rules and Bylaws Committee to waive the rules for FL and MI and seat all delegates as voted on by their voters on the dates of the primaries of those states without any “gifts” to Obama to make the process seem fair to him. The votes are votes. He lost Florida. He took his name off Michigan’s ballot in order to game the system. He obstructed revotes in both states.

      I would add or punish in the same manner the other states like SC who also moved up see BTD summary on this some time ago at Talk Left

    42. Ah, so I might say, “A weaker woman might spit on whatever. I’m not that woman.”

      Like that?

    43. Salty, I think that it’s to late for this:

      I would add or punish in the same manner the other states like SC who also moved up see BTD summary on this some time ago at Talk Left

      THOSE states got to have their votes counted through this whole process — taking them away now, would have little impact.

    44. SweetSue: It is possible that there will be sufficient Republican crossover voters and swing voters who will choose Obama in November. But he will essentially be running in a Republican primary because the base will have deserted him. And we must remember that Republicans are different from Democrats. They have a more authoritarian mindset and are more uncomfortable with ambiguity. They look for strong leaders when they feel their lives are threatened. With the right media narrative, McCain could look very attractive. But it is possible that the public will vote for Obama. Anything is possible. It’s just a lot harder to get there and more resources will be thrown at the presidential at the expense of downticket candidates. The DNC has to consider this carefully unless it really *wants* to lose the election.

    45. i just signed the petition. there is no way that obama will get my vote in the general election. the way he and his team gamed the primaries and his pandering to homophobic and sexist bigots can’t be rewarded. i’ll vote for mccain or the libertarian or even gus hall first – and most likely, ir’ll be mccain.

    46. Teresa234: Why should we care what they think?

      The Oborg will use statements from pro-Hillary blogs to justify their rancid behavior and to discredit all of us. It’s bad enough that trolls posing as Hillary supporters go to places like Hillaryis44 to post unhinged rants they then use as evidence that we are all insane.

      Real Hillary supporters don’t need to act like that, we’re civilized adults.

      We’re angry, we have legitimate grievances, and we are resolute, but we are in control of ourselves. We are not THEM.

      Eyes on the prize, we want to elect Hillary Clinton, not destroy the Democratic party.

    47. Ah crap, I just had my pitchfork sharpened yesterday. Now you’ve gone and spoiled it, rd. 😉

    48. thanks, londonamerican!

    49. Wise words, riverdaughter. It’s ironic that the boyz blogs turned into a mirror image of freeperville. They became like those they professed to be snark-worthy.

      Now is the time to act cool, calm and collected. Oh, and confident. Just like Hillary. I’m thinking about purring cats.

    50. To paraphrase Oprah, we all have to find our own truth in this election. If that truth is Senator McCain, then so be it.

    51. SweetSue:

      Leaving the top spot blank or writing Hillary in is one less vote for Obama (assuming he is the nominee)

      It is not, however, the same as voting for McCain. You might think of not-voting as subtracting half a vote from Obama, and voting for McCain as adding half a vote to that side.

      Whoever finishes with the most votes in each state, wins that state’s electoral votes.

      For many of us, protest voting (or not voting) will be symbolic. If you live in a red state that is going to go for McCain anyway, nothing you do will affect the outcome. The same is probably true in solid blue states.

      If you live in a swing state however, a few thousand votes will make the difference. Just look a Florida 2000 or Ohio 2004.

    52. DNC is more concerned about rulz than about justice. No Michigan, No Florida vote counting, no vote from me, no down ticket, no nothin’ That is my NEW RULZ!

    53. I think we need a mission statement to proceed from – one clear paragraph, maybe with bullet points, that states our positions, our priorities and our demands so that media has something consistent to refer to and we have something that we all basically agree to refer back to in the coming discussions. It’ll help keep the discussion on track. We can announce it on Corbett’s show today. Working from RD’s post:

      As Clinton supporters, we are deeply disturbed by the misogyny both displayed and tolerated by the media, Democratic party officials and office holders, and the campaign of Barack Obama. We demand the following:
      1. that the misogynistic rhetoric against Clinton and her supporters be deemed unacceptable, ceased immediately and receive the same outcry that overtly racist rhetoric would.
      2. that the calls for Clinton to concede her campaign cease immediately.
      3. that Michigan and Florida be fully counted and their delegates seated before the nomination is decided.
      4. that Barack Obama not declare himself the nominee before the convention, and the media cease to regard him as such.
      5. that any discussion that labels statements from the Clinton campaign as racist, and assumes that Clinton supporters are racist by virtue of their support for Clinton cease immediately.

      As lifelong Democrats, we are fully prepared to skip voting in the presidential race if our demands are not met, and if Obama is the nominee. Further, if the Democratic party proceeds with the contempt it has thus far displayed towards Clinton voters, we will refuse to vote in down party races as well.

      We support Hillary Clinton in her quest for the Democratic nomination for the presidency because we feel she is the best candidate for the job, based on her decades long record of progressive accomplishment, her exceptional record as First Lady of both Arkansas and the US, her accomplishments as senator from New York, her platform and her performance on the campaign trail. We admire her ability to tackle and complete projects, her demonstrable values and her tenacity.

      I think it’s important to include something like the last paragraph because it allows us to lead the discussions down the path of what she has actually done in her life, and moves the discussion away from the idea that we’re supporting here because we’re, like, chicks and so is she.

      Anyway, I think a mission statement like this is really important. If you’re so inclined, you can add whatever changes you feel are appropriate.

    54. riverdaughter, I can’t vote for McCain and I can’t vote for Obama whose Presidency, I believe, would damage the Democratic brand as much as GWB has hurt the Republican one. Just when we were getting some respect!
      This was the year the Democratic nominee was going to waltz into the Oval Office, remember? Well, someone unplugged the Wurlitzer. What the hell happened.
      Because I really respect your opinion, I’ll take your advice seriously if the the unthinkable should happen.

    55. ufa – I feel sorry for your wasting time sharpening the pitchfork. I relate. I had been looking forward to going mano a mano with the water buffalo stepping into my path. But alas. It is not to be.

      The better angels of our nature must prevail.

    56. ufa: Keep it handy, you may still need it.

      48 + 2 = legitimacy

    57. katiebird says:

      Hillary will win the nomination. There is no logical path at this point for any other winner.

      Obama is unelectable and our reluctance to vote for him is the first sign of that fact.

      It is our responsibility as Democrats to let the DNC know the depth of our feeling. But, it’s very unlikely to affect us in the voting booth.

      Hillary Clinton will be the Democratic Nominee. And voting for her will be a the best thing we’ll ever do.

      So say I.

    58. madamab – I posted your petition over at Taylor Marsh and someone said it required $$ in order to sign. I didn’t have to do that….do people have to donate in order to sign now?

    59. sweetsue – suggest you change your name to SweetieSue!

    60. Are all the votes from the “57” states to be counted as well? Just asking.

    61. Wow – good point Pat Johnson…we must declare that all 57 states be counted!!!

    62. Yes, the DNC thinks it is more important to protect its own authority, more important to treat MI and FLA like disobedient children, more important to put two critical swing states in “time out,” than to maximize the chances that Obama, should he be the Democratic nominee, carries one or both of those states.

      And they are going to criticize us for endangering Democratic chances for taking the White House?

      That is just too rich.

    63. Lori, I really like what you have written above. Please go for it on Corbett’s show and e-mail the HCFP people if you will allow them to use it.

      My own view is that the Democratic party needs to be taught a lesson. After all, women are the majority of the party and we need to hear and listen to this sexist crap from some in the leadership and from the Obama campaign?

      I’m enraged that they led me to believe that they were for equality all these years. So, they appeased me with pro-choice and SCOTUS threats.

      Here’s what I want – the ERA passed. What ever happened to that? C’mon Democrats – show your true colors. Let’s bring back the ERA.

      Bet the lukewarm response would really piss us all off.

    64. Shainzona – No way! You shouldn’t have to pay to sign it. It’s totally free!

      I will see if something went haywire with the petition.

    65. I am with Lori on needing a mission statement.

      If voting for McCain is not acceptable as an alternative, then someone needs to make clear exactly what is going to be the alternative – and why the DNC should care. Writing in “Hillary” really is problematic for a number of reasons, such as the fact that it’s not possible in all states, and that it can be infantilized (“oh look they can’t let go and accept that hillary is not in the race”) and that it shows we are not ready to walk out on the party no matter how bad it treats us.

      The only other alternative I can think of that could be really effective would be to vote for a third party candidate. This I am willing to do.

      Just sitting on my vote, I am not willing to do.

    66. whoops that smiley isn’t supposed to be there, it is supposed to be a close parentheses

    67. btw those five points are really well stated, Lori & Riverdaughter

    68. Oh! No, ipetitions is just asking for a contribution themselves. If that person signed it, he/she is done.

      Here is the text people get after signing:

      Please help support iPetitions.

      We promote democracy on the Internet by helping people and organizations create online petitions like the one you just signed. We provide these services for free and rely on donations from people like you to keep the site running. Please consider donating to support us. Every donation, no matter how small, helps. Please note: Your donation will help keep iPetitions running. This is NOT a donation to the person or organization whose petition you just signed.

    69. Called the DNC this week and asked to speak to the chairman’s office. You should do the same.
      Decide what you’re going to say BEFORE you call. Be concise and to the point.
      Please BE POLITE TO HIS ASSISTANT, it is not her fault, it’s her job.
      She was very nice and LISTENED to me-got the feeling she was taking notes.

      My points were:
      FL. & MI. must count as voted-Unpledged delegates in both states go to convention as UNPLEDGED.
      BO, Biden, Richardson, & Edwards DELIBERATELY removed their names from the MI. ballot. They COULD HAVE LEGALLY removed their names from the FL. primary for the GE ballot IF certain guidelines were followed.
      The DNC has remained silent while BO campaign surrogates, devotees, prominent democrates, & MSM pundits have despicably smeared Sen. & Pres. Clinton.
      Brazill & others have declared a new “Democratic Coalition” that doesn’t have to rely on blue collar, less educated, less wealthy, Latino, middle class, older, poor, women, Asian, & traditional democratic voters.
      FL. voters are very angry.
      There is a growing movement towards Independent affliation.
      I have become an Independent.
      I will vote down ticket for dems who represent my principles. I will also vote for moderate. non-idealogue republicans who represent my principles.
      I WILL NOT VOTE FOR OBAMA.

    70. Correction-They COULD HAVE LEGALLY removed their names from the FL. primary ballot without jeopardizing their eligibilty for the GE ballot IF certain guidelines were followed.

    71. I just dont buy that the DNC just punished Fla and Mich for moving ahead blah blah, that makes no sense, if that were the case they would have followed there own rules and only stripped their delegates of half. My view this was intended to harm Clinton and provide false momentum to Obama, please recall Brazile and many other are campaign experts and Brazil used the race card for Gore against Bradley.

      I agree with River daughter on approach but let all recall negative attacks are to suppress turn out so staying home, voting for a third Party, or writing in Hillary’s name as a protest is a plus for Obama. He can win without us, so he would win his game against us if we roll over passively. What he and the DNC Kennedy and Pelosi are not appreciating is while that may be true we can as well make him loose

      and that should be incentive to correct their early biased blunder but if they do not there has to be consequences sound familiar.

    72. If the unthinkable happens, I want the world to know that we did not fall in line and vote for Obama. I don’t want the pundits and parties to think there’s been some big groundswell for Johnnie Mac.

    73. Sarah and Lori: While misogynism has been used to great effect by Obama and the media, the thing I’m most concerned with it the fairness of the process. The game seems to have been rigged with intimidating caucuses, disenfranchisment of FL and MI, party loudmouths threatening bad behavior and proportional delegations. Misogynism has been used as a tool but the real problem is in the party itself which seems determined to defeat Clinton by any means necessary. I think there is a power struggle within the party that is philosophical in nature and the traditional Democratic base is threatened by it. But we are the heart of the party and we demand respect and that the process is fair and that the referees maintain impartiality. If you beat on the misogynism thing too much it starts to lose meaning. The problem is that VOTERS are not being respected AND it is being facilitated by sexism.

    74. Riverdaughter: So what other things can we do to ‘drive them crazy’ besides voting for McCain? And why would they care if we ‘drive them crazy’ as long as they got what they wanted anyway.

      I saw someone at another blog say, “well I’ll vote for them, but afterwards, I’ll think long and hard.” And I felt like say, so what will that get you besides a headache?

      And someone here pointed out that the Obamablogs will just have fuel to bash us if we say x….gee they’d bash us anyway.

      Yeah, I really think the Democratic Party is right. People will just roll over and vote for them. I’m seeing it at TalkLeft, at Taylor Marsh and here. We scream a lot, we knash our teeth then we vote to let the party go in the Obama direction just like they said we would. LOL! it’s almost funny.

      But all I have is my vote and I don’t care what anyone else does. I’m exercising the nuclear option, then I’ll bear my bumper sticker, “don’t blame me, etc”.

    75. My pet name for the GOP is the “Elephascist Party”, so no way can I vote for McSame, but no way can I vote for Snob-ama either, so if Snob-ama is nominated, I will vote for Cynthia McKinney in November.

    76. Is it possible the DNC is already anticipating losing the election barring a McCain meltdown & figures Obama will offer them more ca$h for downticket races? And they care more about pissing off Obama’s base than they do Hillary’s? Either that or they’ve got their heads in the sand to an amazing degree as far as BHO’s appeal to the general public.. he’s been losing support since March.. and some of the reasons why are dealbreakers for many voters I think!

    77. madamab – I also signed your petition.

    78. jacilyn, on May 16th, 2008 at 12:39 pm Said:
      I am with Lori on needing a mission statement

      Just sitting on my vote, I am not willing to do..

      Nor am I, that plays into the DNC OBAMA voter suppression plan and is why the believe they have impunity to attack our sex in the Party, he can win without us but we can make him loose too and this power needs to be weighted by each person

      A mission vision statement is a good idea…so while we don’t have to have the same re course we can align on our principals….

    79. Thanks, Wbever!

    80. Just remember!!!!

      The DNC has stated and believes that women and true democrats will come back in November and play nice!!!!

      The only message that sends is please abuse me more. Abusers never consider that there will be repercussions to their actions.

      Our only power is with our vote. Use it wisely.

      For me, I cannot hold my nose and vote for Obama because that would mean that the next time this happens it will even be worse.

      WE MUST MAKE A STAND IN THIS ELECTION AND SAY, “NO MORE.”

    81. Thersa: First of all, they are very full of themselves. They think (wrongly) that we can be seduced into voting for him if we only would see reason and listen to them. They just need to appeal to the softer, squishier side of our nature. If we tell them to go to Hell, they will turn around and accuse us of being rude and uncooperative. We’re being *unreasonable*. They tried, they put their hand out in friendship and we didn’t take it. We won’t collaborate. Suddenly, it’s OUR fault for being mean. We’ll be mean, foul mouthed bloggers.
      Now, that’s not what we want to do because the reason they’re coming here to torment us is because we must be having an impact. And we must be having an impact on people who might act on what we write here. And some of those people will tell their friends and THEY will come here. And the last thing we want is to look like we’re enraged and drooling on ourselves when we make that first impression. The goal of the trolls is to discredit us. If we don’t take the bait, that sort of defeats the purpose. But I think we can do better than that. Think of rhinoceros.

    82. SWEETIESUE! You did change your name. GREAT!!!!!

    83. You’ve quite succinctly laid out the Hillary supporters’ major peeves at the DNC here. In full disclosure I’m an Obama guy, so I actually think if everyone can just calm down a second and at some point throw their support behind the Democratic nominee, whoever that ends up being, we can end this Republican rule. Not voting for the Democratic nominee makes absolutely no sense to me if you consider yourself a Democrat, especially in these times. If somehow Hillary pulled out an honest victory here and became the nominee, I’d have to vote for her. I’m sure you understand that Obama’s got a point in not seating the delegates from FL and MI. They broke the rules. I admire that he’s not knuckling under here. Rules are rules. We’ve lived under an administration for eight years that doesn’t have much use for rules. I think Obama is a straighter arrow than any other candidate in this race, and this non-seating of delegates in FL and MI issue is only making me feel more respect for his regard for rules. I feel bad for the voters in MI and FL though, they got a raw deal.

      New cartoons here: http://spinachflame.wordpress.com/

    84. Why don’t we just demand they nominate the choice of registered Democrats?

    85. I won’t for BO, spinach. Not in a million years.

    86. spinachflame – Exhibit A.

      Just calm down ladies. Respect the rulz. (Which we made up to promote our candidate over yours.) Roll over and play nice.

      No thanks.

      Obama himself has told me he doesn’t need my vote. I’m just taking him at his word. 😉

    87. Wouldn’t it be funny if pro Clinton bloggers and their commenters ended up converting some of the mighty 400?
      If they think we’re a bunch of sentimental pearl clutchers with racial issues, they’re in for a surprise.

    88. I do not want my outrage and disenfranchisement to be just another hollow cry. A clear, concise message must be sent and the only way that can be accomplished is by sheer numbers. I do not want it assumed that because I may be
      “on the rag” in May I will be in a more “compliable” mood in November. (Sorry if this sounds a little crass.)

    89. spinachflame: I’m not a Democrat. See as of last week, I’m an unaffiliated voter. Yep! I’m bright, shiny and new. You want my vote? What’s it worth to you?

    90. KatieBird or RD or any poster:

      Attached is a link to a page on Hillary’s website. The page provides a form for writing to the DNC and asking them to seat FL and MI. Would you consider placing this link in a prominent place on the site? I think this may warrant everyone’s attention.

      http://www.hillaryclinton.com/action/flmidnc/?sc=1855&utm_source=1855&utm_medium=e

    91. Maybe we need to apply pressure elsewhere, besides the DNC. The Dems are hoping for increased numbers in the Senate and the House. If they think millions of women will just sit out the election in protest, we might be able to push from more than one side. Remember, it was only Rahm Emmanuel, former chair of the DCCC, who spoke out against Teddy Kennedy’s slur of Hillary. He knows, from experience, how hard it is to put together a slate and then raise money for congressional candidates. Chris Van Hollen, the current chair, isn’t nearly as powerful as Emmanuel, but Schumer, who heads up the DSCC is definitely influential. Just a thought.

    92. Dont’ tell me to calm down! A honest victory (LMAO). Five states moved up their primaries only two were penalize. Your Obama campaigned in FL by running TV ads VIOLATING your said rules. So go use your money somewhere else.

    93. Electoral votes are awarded to the candidate with the majority of popular votes, not proportionally, as in a primary/caucus. Winner takes all in each state.

      Many states do not have a write-in option.

      Sen. Clinton can legally continue her campaign for the presidency as a dem, irregardless of who the dems. nominate. IF Clinton AND Obama both run, IT IS POSSIBLE TO DENY McCAIN THE 270 ELECTORAL VOTES NECESSARY TO WIN THE PRESIDENCY. Then, I think, the dems will have to broker a deal, or the HOUSE decides. Not completely sure about the procedure. There is a precedent in the past.

      Option 1, do not vote for president, maybe McCain wins by default.

      Option 2, vote for McCain.

      Option 3, fall in line and vote for Obama

      There is no other option-a vote for a second tier candidate is worthless, it will just dilute the popular vote and accomplish nothing.

    94. Don’t forget to go to Corbett’s Corner WILK-FM today 3pm-7pm est and listen
      to him talk about Operation Turn Down. As the MSM keeps trying to push
      Clinton from the race we must rise up. Let everyone know we won’t vote
      Obama in November. Stand up and let your voice be heard. Now is the time
      to declare yourself. Go to Corbett’s Corner and send him an e-mail telling
      him why you won’t vote for Obama. We must fight the elites in Washington.

      http://tinyurl.com/6b37mn

    95. MABlue: Nothing is FINAL until the balloons drop in Denver. At this point, FL and MI should be seated as is without any more fuss. Obama and the DNC had a chance to rectify the situation a couple months ago. They did nothing and since I have to assume they don’t want to lose these states in the fall, I can only conclude that they really don’t have a problem with thess two primaries. So, seat them now and tell Obama to stop the premature celebrations and take an old, cold tater and wait.

    96. @spinachflame, 1:14

      “Not voting for the Democratic nominee makes absolutely no sense to me if you consider yourself a Democrat, especially in these times.”

      Well, aren’t you a sweetie, to come let your fingers do the walking over here, and to speak so reasonable-like to us low-information voters.

      Listen up. I’m not much of a joiner–never have been–and I definitely do NOT consider myself a Democrat OR a Republican OR a Green OR a libertarian. I tend to vote for the person I consider the better candidate. In this case, I’ll be voting for the less bad one–McCain.

      So KMA.

    97. So, we are angry that the voters are going to steal the election? That sounds odd not because people are misogynist, but because it is odd. Two women callers on the Diane Rehm show both made me cringe: one suggested “boyz” are controlling the election, and the other said she was a Clinton supporter who wouldn’t vote for Obama because of “rumors about his patriotism.” When pressed, she said “I heard he won’t wear a flag lapel.” What would we say about this kind of thing if it were coming from Republicans? And, women are supposed to participate in an “Operation” that will make McCain more likely to win, so he can appoint anti-choice judges and keep our sons and daughters in Iraq? What is going on here?

    98. I find the “sympathy” trolls more nauseating than any other species of said creature. I’ve seen a big influx of them on sites. I just walk over them same as all trolls. I however, do like to see the occassional rant done by a livid pro-Hillary co-hort. I know where to go to find them. I personally enjoy the art of the well-spoken “put the little finks in their place post.”
      (I’ve done quite a few myself)
      I’m not worried about being discredited in any shape, way or form. Anger, rightly channeled, is a good thing and very empowering against repression. No lid of PC on us. That’s been the Obama-way to piss on all of us for months. If I get angry, and by God I will, I shall endeavor to do so in appropriate ways. A rant of well chosen curse words–sometimes as punctuation even– if done right is not only free-ing but can be very funny and uplifting. That said, the well written (non-
      profane) blog is the most effective, and you are right in that.

    99. That is, I will vote for McCain if Bambi and not HRC is nominated, which IS NOT YET DECIDED.

      So KMA again.

    100. I always miss the good accidents. I guess Spinachflames’ post came and went before I could read it. Bummer.

      Anywho, folks, don’t forget that HRC will be joining in on a conference call with her phonecallers today at 7:00 p.m. Here are the specifics, please remember to phonebank too!

      “To join the call just dial 1-888-373-5705 at 7 PM Eastern Time and enter the pass code 904132 when prompted. “

    101. We are angry because the DNC is rigging the election for its preferred candidate-you know, the one with all that Wall Street money.
      Hillary is ahead in the popular vote.

    102. Bringiton at Corrente has a TERRIFIC post, check it out “Clinton Election Juggernaut Accelerates”. It has so much detail it could be a short novel about how Hillary has earned front runner status as of now.

      http://www.correntewire.com/clinton_election_juggernaut_accelerates_0

    103. ARG is out, for what it’s worth. Hillary is crushing Obama in Kentucky, but I think what is really interesting is Oregon. It shows Obama up by five points in Oregon, only a slim lead. What is intriguing to me, however, is that ARG had the same finding for voters who already have voted that SUSA had. SUSA had it 49-48 for Obama, and ARG has it 49-49.

    104. The following is a VERY interesting read about the “rules.” There seems to be a lot more to this than I realized. Please go there and read.

      http://12counts.wordpress.com/2008/04/21/the-dnc-rules-and-the-case-for-mi-and-fl/

      Go Hillary!!!!

    105. Spinachflame can take her “rules” and shove them! And saying that The One possesses all the integrity she needs to vote for him tells me she is just another tool for the “Children of the Corn”.

    106. daria g: Is it possible the DNC is already anticipating losing the election barring a McCain meltdown & figures Obama will offer them more ca$h for downticket races?

      A WSJ article I quoted here perhaps a week ago had Dems off-the-record saying just that.

      That’s why I find it comical that they even bother with the heavy-handed unity/Roe/judges tactic. If they’re not worried, neither am I.

      And what no Democrat has managed to answer yet is why McCain is *now* so horrible after Kerry/Daschle tried to recruit him as VP on the Democratic ticket.

      Net result? Hard to take the Democrats seriously … on anything.

    107. Cate, Hill actually leads in the pop vote, and is expected to on June 4th. I see no reason to nominate a guy who had a good run in February, primarily because of caucuses. Let’s see, Hill has won 300k more votes than BO since Tthe begining of March. Let’s look at the states they each won in that time:
      HRC:
      TX
      OH
      RI
      PA
      IN
      WV

      BO:
      VT
      WY
      MS
      NC

      Hmmm, I wonder which is the stronger candidate?

      Further, Hill is by far the choice of registered Democrats. She’s won the swing groups, the swing states, and the large electoral states.

      We don’t have to nominate a loser.

    108. Look, John Edwards was opposed to participating in Michigan and Florida, too. I’m still waiting to be told why anti-choice judges, no money for education, and continued war are the preferred option. Or is it that McCain and his supporters are going to be more careful about offensive references to women than Obama and his supporters? Is that the appeal? I don’t think so. And the link someone posted above, about the Clinton juggernaut, reads like a satire. Here’s just one question: why is Obama’s North cCarolina victory “race-based” and a factor of demographics and Clinton’s West Virginia victory not?

    109. You just don’t get it do you. We are not voting for Obama. This is not a beauty contest. The future of our country depends on the next president and their ability to clean up the mess left by Bush. Hillary has the know how, the drive, the experience, and the policies to pull us out of this mess. The next best is McCain. Last on the list is Obama. Now do you understand? The DNC, Dean, Brazile, Kennedy, Kerry, Dodd, Pelosi, and now Edwards are trying to make a power play for their own greed and we the heart of the Democratic Party are not going to stand for it.

    110. Methinks that CATE is one of those paid trolls…she’s over at Taylor Marsh saying really stupid things, too.

    111. Melanie, thanks for the information. That does help me understand a little. But, I think John Edwards, both in ’04 and ’08, would have had a better shot in the general election than the Democrats who appear to be ahead, but that’s not how the nominee is chosen. Heck, Mitt Romney might have had a better shot than McCain, but that’s not what the Republicans ended up with.
      Nana, I’m not suggesting this is a beauty contest. I’m asking why McCain is more likely to “clean up the mess left by Bush” than Obama is. I don’t understand the analysis.

    112. Nana: I understand perfectly well. You have to do what your conscience tells you to do. I wouldn’t want you to do anything else.
      But the best possible outcome would be for Hillary to be the nominee at the top of the ticket. So, my point is, offer the DNC a choice while they still have one. Give them a chance to remedy the situation before you pull the trigger. Give them until May 31. Then, if they let you down, go nuclear.

    113. But, in this case, Cate, there is no reason to nominate the weaker candidate. There are a dozen matrix that can be used to nominate Hillary.

      I don’t think Obama’s qaulified to be President, so I won’t vote for him.

    114. And, John Edwards is no Hillary Clinton.

    115. Cate: We’re old women, remember? We don’t care about no stinkin’ anti-choice judges. Besides, we know that you know that we know that the whole abortion thing was always a Republican sham.
      Anyway, I live in NJ. I already don’t get money for education. Everything here is funded by property taxes.
      C’mon, Cate, I’m an uaffiliated voter now. Pander to me. Haggle. What is Obama going to do for ME?

    116. Nobody here cares to hear what you have to say about Obama. I’m not trying to be rude but all you are doing if further steeling our resolve. Your time maybe better spent ensuring all the new young and improved voters show up when the time comes. They may need someone to drive them to the polls.

    117. Just a wanring, I think many of the BO 400 are likely to be women.

    118. That’s “warning” not “wanring”.

    119. Ben: Good point! Won’t all the student types be studying for midterms during prime canvassing season? Ooo, not a pretty scenario.

    120. I am sitting at my computer smiling; this reminds me of why I love being a woman. Even when I’m gettin’ blasted.
      Bea, I’m not making an argument for Obama, really. I am asking why there is a commitment brewing to destroying an Obama candidacy, and ensuring a McCain victory. Is it that McCain is a better choice? It seems terribly selfish to bring down a Democratic nominee just as revenge.
      Melanie, I know JOhn Edwards is no HillaryClinton, but you’re supposed to be making a fairness argument here, not a “my candidate is better” argument. Isn’t that where your moral high ground comes from? (smile)
      Riverdaughter, you just rock. But old women have always cared about young women, and so do you (we). As for unaffiliated voters, let’s try presenting McCain’s history and present with lobbyists, his extraordinary temper, his admission that he doesn’t know anything about the economy….

    121. rd: His “light” is going to come down and surround you in “hope” and “change”. That is what a “transcender” does. If you are unable to see that by now through those black eyes we gave you (which are guaranteed to disappear by November) then I guess you have not been paying attention. (<snark)

    122. Cate, this is a “my candidate is better” at winning arguement.

      It’s all there in the numbers. BO peaked in WI. He has too many deficiencies with too many voter groups to be viable in a GE. When a candidate starts talking about a new electoral map ala McGovern, you know that candidate has troubles.

    123. Even Democrats like McCain. Maybe not here on the blogs. But the average Dem likes McCain. That’s why Kerry begged him to run as VP.

      Again, I warn, I am certain many of BO’s 400 will be women.

    124. Cate: Nope, I’m not worried about younger women. From time to time, the tree of liberty must be refreshed with the sweat of women with unplanned pregnancies. I’m sure they will find a way to travel to another state.
      Butcha know, Cate, if you are so worried about Roe, you do have a choice. You can work for Hillary! That would be so generous of you to all of the younger women out there.
      As for McCain, I never said I was going to vote for him. I’m unaffiliated. Now, Obama has to work harder for my vote. So, what do you have that I want?

    125. Cate, by the way, RD is making the fairness argument. I gave up on fairness in this circus-like primary long ago. I am making the winning argument.

      Also, RD, I am 34, do I qualify as an old woman?

    126. So essentially what you are saying is that the only group able to address your grievances is the DNC?

      “The goal of the trolls is to discredit us.”

      I think they would rather convince people of their view first. Some people are just really agitated when others think differently than them and if they cannot convince them then dismissing them as crazy/stupid/etc are the next best options. Some people sort of like conflict. Either way, staying calm will probably agitate them more than any strong language could.

    127. “But old women have always cared about young women, and so do you (we).”

      Guilt trips won’t work this time. I turn 47 tomorrow, so I won’t be needing access to abortion providers or birth control. My generation worked our asses off to ensure reproductive rights, only to see younger women fail to vote for prochoice politicians and let those rights slip through their fingers. Young, unmarried women are the voting bloc most likely to stay away from the polls on election day. They are also the most likely to whine about their lack of access to birth control and abortion services, long after they could have taken action to secure their rights. Time for the young to step up to the plate and champion their own causes, as we did when we were young and America was just emerging from the Dark Ages of back alley butchers and coat hanger deaths.

      To be blunt: I got mine, now you get yours. And to Obama and his fans: Win without me!

    128. .And let’s not forget the Dems winning are pro life and pro guns, so let’s drop the pretense that Dems will protect women’s rights, thank you we can protect our own and will. The DNC has shown it’s self to have betrayed their Base and have fixed the race with faux nonsensical rulz they have the opportunity to fix the integrity of the process or not ,although, I would argue that the false momentum the DNC gave Obama that he had not earned, has been extremely harmful even to Clinton chances of being elected in Nov now.

      ah just as an fyi McCain said in his speech yesterday he would appoint Judges who protect the rights of ALL individuals and their rights outlines in the Constitution….pandering or an invite I don’t know yet, but I will listen and watch and vote the interest of my family my community and myself? Senator Hutchinson who is on McCains short list is Prolife but dose not wish to see Roe overturned. Least I sound like a Republican, I am one who has begun my search as a back up if Clinton is not the nominee knowing I cannot in good conscious vote for a nominee that I believe to be weak like Bush and I can not set on the sideline either that could propel him to victory that’s the lesson and legacy of the last eight years.

    129. Melanie, I stand corrected twice, regarding the fairness argument and you! But, here’s a new question. Why assume that the fact that Obama can’t beat Hillary among certain groups — and I agree, he can’t — means that Obama can’t beat McCain among those groups? That doesn’t seem to give Hillary enough credit. Also, this is as free and easy a period as McCain will have, and he’s either behind or barely ahead of Obama and Clinton in hypothetical match-ups.
      Riverdaughter: tell me an issue that is of interest to you, and I will then be better able to answer your question. Also, if there is a prize for wildest use of a Jefferson quote, and if I could award it, consider yourself today’s winner!

    130. I haven’t seen any recent KY polls, but last one had Clinton up by 27…I can live with that “toothless” number. 🙂 Let me guess…Gore will be rolled out the next day? IF he does, he’ll look just like the douche bag Edwards does with Precious by his side.

      At least all these lame Dems have been “outed”–not sure if Gore is, yet, but since he supposedly can’t stand Sen. Clinton, I wouldn’t be surprised. Nice to see all this “unity.”

      And you know all of these questions Obama hasn’t answered–I want to know this one–Why is he insisting on running for president NOW when his daughters are so young and need both of their parents to develop as normal kids? He could’ve waited until they were teens and much, much older. But that would require good judgment.

      I still think he’s an incredibly arrogant, selfish prat…he could’ve waitied if he wanted to, thickened his resume, DONE something besides voting present and organizing stuff.

      If anyone’s outed himself as lame it’s HIM–if he had good instincts, he would’ve waited until he was a stronger candidate and at least completed ONE TERM in the Senate and ran ONE tough campaign against a real opponent.

      Clinton, on the other hand, waited–remember when everyone INSISTED she was running for prez in 2004 and she said, “NO!” every which way? Smart move–but who knew the 2008 Dems were up for the highest bidder and so entrenched in misogyny that they’d serve up their own to get a lightweight puppet candidate? Even Pelosi…ugh…I can’t stand that woman and I never thought I’d say that. I was so proud of her in the 2007 SOTU address. Since then? Bueller?

      p.s. And for those who’ve offered 2 cents? Thanks–I’ve decided I AM going to the CO Dem Convention tomorrow…I’ll let you know what happens, if anything. But I just want to offer solid, unwavering support for Clinton and influence anyone else I can. I’ll even spike the Kool-Aid if I have to…..I haf my vays…ha ha ha ha ha….

    131. Cate, sweetie(and I am sure you don’t min me calling you that) why rely on hoping he can, than going with the candidate those voter groups already firmly support? Further, he can win, say Jewish voters, but he doesn’t win them in the high 60’s, it won’t matter. So he can winn all the swing groups Hill won, but I have a hard time believing he can win them by sufficient margins.

    132. Cate, I’ve got a question for you.

      Where (and what years) did Obama work in the years following Law School.

      In each: What were his responsibilities & What was his biggest achievement.

      What jobs did he hold when the Illinois Legislature was not in session. And what was his most successful project in these jobs.

      Thank you for your help.

    133. Cate, on May 16th, 2008 at 1:56 pm Said

      Bea, I’m not making an argument for Obama, really. I am asking why there is a commitment brewing to destroying an Obama candidacy, and ensuring a McCain victory. Is it that McCain is a better choice?

      IMO yes. Divided governance, I absolutely become alarmed at the though of another weak President elected by a fringe minority with no mandate and with co enablers in Power in Congress. And a Party that like republicans wielded grievance they values Dems race to polarize divided and inflame the electorate. And if the Party had to fix its own race against its own base I reject the ethics of their platform as well. This country has been in serious decline for the last three years and it has become critical that the decline be stunted if not turned and that will take leadership and strength and tough choices.

    134. Sen. Obama was for confirming Roberts as Chief Justice before it was pointed out to him that it might, um, look bad in a bid for higher office. Hardly a compelling argument to elect Obama if pro-choice Supreme Court appointments are important to you.

    135. KoaChick, PLEASE DON’T SAY that Gore will endorse Obama.

      That’ll be worse than seeing my first crush making out with my 8th-grade “best” friend at the Holy Rosary School Carnival.

      PLEASE.

    136. I actually think if everyone can just calm down a second

      Am I the only one who is getting sick of being told to calm down?

      This isn’t what I think of when I think of rioting. No, what I think of is more like what I saw the last time I read comments at Kos.

      We’re plenty calm, compared to what Obama’s supporters are used to. So why do we need to calm down more for them?

    137. Cate: Before we talk issues, let’s discuss whether Obama is truly a partisan Democrat. Because I don’t know if you noticed but Republicans are hard ass obstructors. Which Democratic principles does Obama consider sacrosanct? Does he believe in shared responsibility? What about his committment to social justice especially with respect to the GBLT constituency? How does he feel about members of the Federalist Society? Who does he feel are his natural coalition groups in Congress? He’s been in Congress for such a short period of time, it’s hard to tell.
      I just don’t hear Obama talk about his committment to the party all that much.

    138. Hi, Katiebird. I don’t know the answers to your questions, but I am happy to read and think about any straightforward statement from you about Obama’s flaws. Does that work?
      Koachick: Didn’t Bill and HIllary decide he should run for president when Chelsea was quite young?
      Xeno: I was not guilt-tripping. I agree young women should vote for the pro-choice candidate in the general election; that was exactly my point.
      Melanie, I’m thinking about your points.

    139. jacilyn: The purpose of the trollitude is to discredit the site. So, it is important that we not take the bait. Keep it lite and use your words.

    140. Hi Cate — this is a heads up: You’re going in the spam filter from now on. 🙂

    141. If Gore comes out for Obama then I will definitely support McCain just to prove a point.

      And Cate, then you and you cheesecloth arguments on behalf of Obama against the women on this blog will bite you in the end. If you feel “slammed” by the responses to your postings then this will give you some indication of what Hillary Clinton has had to endure.

    142. Cate, do you a favor.

      Don’t.

      Just don’t.

      We are too fed up. We won’t lock-step. We are all educated, informed voters who have been sold out by our party because they prefer to run with the BloggerBoyz Demo-libertarians and defy the popular vote.

      Thank you.

    143. Dear Cate – Obama is not qualified to be president of the United States. He would endanger our country were he to become Commander in Chief. That’s why I will not vote for him. I agree with riverdaughter. I’m focussing on process now.

      Tea?

    144. Where did Cate go?

    145. RD – the spam filter caught her (I swear I didn’t do a thing)

    146. She’s still in there.

    147. Cate–

      Yes, indeedy, the Clintons decided to run for office when Chelsea was young. But the point is–she had been there, done that. Gov Clinton had been in office a long, long time. She turned out pretty good, wouldn’t you say? I’d say it was probably her mother who had such a terrific influence and the strong marriage the Clintons had–they withstood a live, public autopsy and lived to tell about it.

      This is apples and apricots, anyway–it’s just a flippin question I have. It’s not quid pro quo fodder for Clinton. It’s just a damn question I have for Precious–he whines at people bothering his waffle eating. It’s going to get a Hell of a lot harder should he ever become president–how will that affect his girls–that’s all.

      THE DIFFERENCE is the example set by both parents– the Obamabot campaign actively engages in, condones and ignores ugly misogyny at every turn, sets a horrible example by crying “racism” every time a legitimate question is raised about Obama’s record or statements or thought processes. You don’t like how things are going and you happen to be AA? Cry racism and race bait white people in your way. You don’t like how women have earned something you didn’t and worked for it when you didn’t feel like it? Engage in sexism! Great life lessons…

      No one’s perfect–certainly not the Clintons.

      But I just want to know why this lightweight, zero-qualified candidate wants to be president? I don’t think he does…he just wants the adulation, people to suck up to him and to feel like Jesus Rock Star. He doesn’t actually want to do anything to HELP people–otherwise he’d look into some of the details why and how vs. just being the one he’s been waitng for.

    148. Riverdaughter —

      Great question about the Federalist Society. It’s going to take a lot of work to restore justice to the Dept. of justice after 8 yrs of systematic politicization by Bush. Not to mention fed. court nominations.

    149. Cate,

      As I see it Obama hasn’t fulfilled any of his responsibilities.
      *He didn’t protect his constituents from Rezco the slumlord, leaving them to freeze without heat in the middle of winter among other things.
      *He promised a nuclear bill to make nuclear plants warn society about leaks and then falsely claims to have delivered that, after taking money from the plants and make the bill voluntary for them.
      *He promised to be an anti-war senator and then didn’t ally himself with the anti-war fraction, thus misleading those who voted for him for that reason.
      *He took on the post as chair for the nato subcommitee and then didn’t raise a finger on that job.
      *He took credit for other persons’ work in the senate.
      *He campaign dirty as was first seen in his campaign against Alice Palmer and now in his stopping a revote in MI and Fl as well as gambling by removing his name there to begin with. Having bully tactics on caucases (even getting som registered republicans to be his pledget delegates I understan) and refusing to meet his opponent in debates.
      *He wanted anti-choice Roberts for the supreme court.
      *He uses misogynic comments and rethoric.

      I find Obama very dishonest and don’t think he would be good for the US or the world. That said I actually agree on his policy on Palestine. Israel breaks human rights daily and Hamas were elected in free elections – any solution must include them. However, at the first sign of disapproval he has distanced himself from that stance. If he actually were a leader he would explain his point and convince others to follow his lead, instead he manipulates peoples’ approval. Obama is pro everything when it suits him and then oppose it when it isn’t convenient. I don’t think he would stand for Democratic values or poicies if he were to become president.

      That said I personally don’t believe that crossing over to McCain is the answer. If enough people vote for Cynthia MacKinney this year it seems to me as if it might be a strike against the two party-system holding peoples votes captive by blackmailing them on issues like chioce. Or else write in Hllary and vote dem down ticket.

    150. Forgot to add —

      I think I read somewhere that Fed. Soc. members had a lot to do with the Precious’ election to Harvard Law Review.

    151. maybe she gravitated to her natural environment.

    152. Hi; I’m signing in (with a back-up email I have) once last time. Riverdaughter, shortly after Katiebird warned me I was going in the spam filter, I was, I guess, blocked from posting. So, I was censored just about the time someone said, “we won’t move in lockstep.” Right. Look, I’m not a “paid troll.” It’s possible for honest people to disagree with you about what to do next. Good luck. Have fun in the echo chamber.

    153. Cate, I was prepared to send you to the spam filter (I don’t like your tone) but it wasn’t necessary. I didn’t do a thing. Your own language put you there. Not me.

      (I mean this in the kindest possible way)

    154. My own language? I have been nothing but polite, ever. Unless, the word “Obama” means something gets sent to the spamfilter? 🙂

    155. OK now I’m hooked on posting;^D

      I wonder about these “downticket” Dems. Where have any of them been when HRC has been demeaned in the most disgusting way? Where have they been? My own senator, Dianne Feinstein told the media last week that she needs to have a talk with HRC to see what her plans are. HRC has made her plans clear all along. I called Feinstein’s office to complain but they don’t care.

      Again, where are the downticket Dems when HRC is being maliciously attacked? Where are they when the FL and MI voters are disenfranchised? Where are they when Matthews goes into his act? They are nowhere. I’m not sure I will vote Dem downticket.

    156. I think Cate was posting similar stuff on Taylor Marsh earlier today. If you’re not a paid troll, Cate, then I think you should apply f or the job. Why do it for free? Take a page from the superdelegates book. There’s apparently plenty of money to go around.

    157. OK, first: yes, I said a post two posts ago was my last post! Guilty! But you guys are falsely accusing me of things, and I’m just amazed. I’m writing to defend myself.
      1) Katiebird wrote she was going to put me in the spam filter “from now on,” and then when Riverdaughter asked where I’d gone, Katiebird claimed I’d automatically been spammed because I’d used foul language already? That makes no sense. 2) What is Taylor Marsh? I defy anyone to find something on there that sounds like my posts here. (I phrase it that way because I have no idea if somebody named Cate is posting over there; I only know I am not).
      3) What could be more patronizing that you guys telling a woman (or anyone else) that if she disagrees wtih you, she must be getting paid for it or willing to take a bribe?

    158. OK, using the phrase “you guys” probably opens me up for some jokes. But hey, I didn’t say sweetie.

    159. Cate, (sigh)

      Your reading comprehension needs improvement. I didn’t say “foul language” I said:

      the spam filter caught her (I swear I didn’t do a thing)

      Then I said:

      Cate, I was prepared to send you to the spam filter (I don’t like your tone) but it wasn’t necessary. I didn’t do a thing. Your own language put you there. Not me.

      (I mean this in the kindest possible way)

    160. riverdaughter-

      If we count FL and MI votes, play the game fairly all the way through, and Obama still wins – will you vote for him v. McCain?

    161. Katiebird, I read just fine, and it’s clear that you said you were going to block me, and then blocked me. So what. It’s also clear that it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans, so let’s move on. I’m curious to read Riverdaughter’s answer to “The Left.” Hoping for another Jefferson quote.

    162. Cate.

      Are you sure you actually GOT blocked? It seems to me like people just assumed the automatic block had got you when you stopped posting. And then you assumed they had blocked you and switched e-mail..

    163. Hey, B. No, I’m sure. I posted once or twice and they didn’t go through. When I switched emails, it went through. And Katiebird did write above that I about to go in the spam filter, and then that I was “still there.” (I have a vision of myself staring up from a dark space, pathetically waving. ) Thanks, though!

    164. Ok. Well what did you think of my points about Obama? You wanted to know what people saw as his flaws and why we oppose his presidency..

    165. Oh, B., I’m sorry. You posted that really informative post, and then I got upset and distracted. I realize you didn’t post it just for me, but here is my response:
      Yikes. That’s kind of discouraging. I think that Obama does not have a lot of experience, and from what you’re saying, he is perhaps too prone to negotiating, when he has had experience. I guess I would say a few things in mild disagreement. Regarding Roberts, I thought Roberts was about as moderate as we would get from as a Bush appointee. Also, this is weird, but I knew a woman who worked for him in D.C. when he was a lawyer, and she said Roberts was very polite, and supported the ability of lawyers and staff at the firm to take time off when they had kids. Random, I know, but I guess I can see why Obama would consider voting for him to avoid somebody worse coming down the pike. The only other thing I’d say is, if we’re worried about cutting deals with businesses and polluters, we should worry about McCain. That is NOT an argument for Obama over Hillary Clinton, but it is a worried response to calls for action that would get McCain elected, if Obama is the democratic nominee.
      Thanks for the info, B.

    166. Cate, you must be that rare “low information” Obama supporter if you don’t know what Taylor Marsh is.

    167. @The Left, 4:16

      “If we count FL and MI votes, play the game fairly all the way through, and Obama still wins – will you vote for him v. McCain?”

      Nope. McCain’s still a better/less bad candidate that Bambi.

    168. Was in a store today in a rural area and it had a cat mascot who lives there. I didn’t know the clerk but just started talking about the cat with the clerk. The clerk said the cat was old and had some health problems but then quickly added with a smile “But he’s not bitter”. Anyhow my opinion is that I will vote for the best candidate running in the Fall. And the one thing that’s guaranteed is that if Obama is on the ticket in either slot I won’t vote for that ticket. I personally believe he’s dangerous and I don’t want him even a heartbeat away. I don’t believe we’re allowed “write ins” in Michigan (unless the candidate registers for that) so that’s not really an option for me here.

    169. “It is the Map not the Math”

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