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Yinz got it backwards

All day long, I have been reading some version of Turkana’s plaintive wail:

Many of you passionate Clinton supporters have been in the game for a very long time. You knew what could happen. That the impossible seemed probable makes defeat that much harder to bear, but Hillary Clinton is not going to be president. She was lied about, smeared, vilified and demonized. And that was just by the corporate media. There was never going to be objective reporting. The behavior of many Democrats, particularly in the shrillosphere, was inexcusably petty, dishonest, and manipulative. People exposed themselves in ways that will never be forgotten. But none of that changes either the result or the necessity of salving the wounds, stepping back, and maintaining both composure and perspective.

It isn’t necessary that those who support Clinton now enthusiastically come to support Obama, but it is necessary that they come to support him. Even at the bare minimum level. And that bare minimum level is to vote for him, in November. You don’t have to like doing so, but you do have to do so. The alternative is unthinkable. Many of you like to think of yourselves as wiser and more politically astute than are many Obama supporters, and it is time to make that case for yourselves. Be as graceful in defeat as the worst of them have been graceless in victory. Obama himself, however imperfect, is a far better person than those who do such a terrific job of turning people away from him. Keep that in mind. Keep in mind the irrevocable damage that would be done by four more years of neocon/theocon/kleptocrat autocracy. And keep in mind that the often odious behavior you have seen from online Obama supporters is not the fault of the candidate himself.

Oh, brother. Where to start?

Well, how about that last line? All this animosity is not the fault of the candidate himself. But he sure did take advantage of it, didn’t he? Did he once stand up for women and tell the media to can the sexist crap? Did he once tell his supporters to stop calling the Clintons racists? F%&( no. It wasn’t in his best interests to do that. He and his loudmouth, Donna Brazile, have made a point of telling us what losers we are. We’re bitter, clingy, undignified, the “old coalition”. They don’t really need us and for sure they aren’t putting together any policies that would appeal to us. He’s unseasoned, completely inexperienced, unaccomplished and can’t discuss policy without 6 prepositional phrases and 4 subclauses in a labyrinthine run on sentence that ultimately means nothing while she dances around him like Butterfly Muhammed Ali. But if we don’t vote for him. we’re racists.

In short, he has had an almost frictionless path to the nomination with mines like Wright and obstacles like FL and MI conveneintly cleared before him by the party itself and a sycophantic press. And now that he has had his thugs beat us up, we are supposed to “gracefully” hand over our lunch money?

In your f&*)ing dreams, Turk.

Let’s get one thing straight. We all have choices in our lives. I have a vote. I could give it to McCain, Obama, the write in candidate of my choice or no one at all. If that concept pains Obama supporters and causes them distress, consider this: Obama has choices too. He could continue to cater to an ever shrinking pseudo-Democratic coalition running a Republican lite version of High Broderism and deliberately alienate half of his party or he could actually make an effort to stop pissing us off. He wants something I have. It is incumbent on HIM to gracefully kiss my ass to get it.

And if it is Unity the Obamaphiles want, then it is incumbent on them to ask him to be a leader and Unify. We are not going to come running to him just because they are terrified that McCain will win. They too had a choice. They could have calmly and rationally made a critical assessment of each candidate’s strengths and weaknesses and chosen the better candidate instead of raving like maniacs to the point of insensibility. If the consequences of another Republican four years were so dire, they owed it to themselves and the rest of us to not act like lunatics and drag us into the path of a speeding train. Don’t blame US for keeping our heads.

But there is one thing for damn sure in the whole wretched mess of a party primary: It is time to stop doing all of Obama’s work for him. If he wants to be the nominee, it’s time he started working for it. Until then, I’m sticking with the candidate who has earned my respect and has more grace than all of us.

155 Responses

  1. Outstanding, RD.
    Let’s list our conditions, shall we?
    – Sit Mi/FL
    Now, on to the policy questions, because, as racist, bitter, old, low-info, etc… as we are, we actually care about substance:
    – take privatization of SS off the table
    – prosecution of the Bush crime clan
    – promotion of women’s and LGBT’s rights
    – progressive economic policies
    – Universal health care
    – repeal of no child left behind, no merit pay plan
    – out of Iraq / no bombing of Pakistan
    – reinstate habeas corpus
    – commitment to appointing progressive judges on SCOTUS, no waffling
    – commitment to repeal the partial birth abortion law, no waffling
    – no telco immunity
    Have I forgotten anything?

    Oh yeah, stop abusing / insulting us… incredibly, it does not endear BO to us.

  2. Well, I see no reason to give up on Hill yet. These two are basically tied, and she is the one who is actually qualified for the job. If Democrats were sold on Obama, who has been the presumptive frontrunner since February, then why does she keep winning primaries? I think the press is trying to shut her down becuase he is facing another couple of humiliating defeats in the next 13 days.

  3. if it’s unity they want???? LOLOL!!! we’re old, we’re racists, we’re bitter, we’re stupid. that’s some f****ing unity. I’m not feeling real unified, or united or whatever, here.

    for another laugh, I lifted this from Taylor Marsh cause it’s just so funny (she’s addressing Tim Russert):

    You loud mouthed, self-important, elitist, John McCain pimping, pile on artist, anti feminist, misogynistic, ego driven, over paid, hack, blow hard, Clinton hating, so 20th century male, mind numbing pontificator, against all things Democratic jackass. Who elected you to anything?

    yeah well, let’s all just let bygones be bygones and unite. uh huh…..

  4. This “you’ve got to quit” is the oldest gambit in the book for men trying to get women out… whether it is a non-traditional job, a non-traditional major in college, etc. – this is what they do… I’m not falling for it and Hillary should not either.

    It is very sad to see women now pushing this meme…. Obama wil not get my vote. I will not reward these tactics. If the Democrats want my vote then they must nominate Hillary.

  5. Yer darn tootin’ !!

    Many of you like to think of yourselves as wiser and more politically astute than are many Obama supporters

    For God’s sake, this is an insulting charge. The audacity of campaigning for someone not The Precious.

    I guess that’s another site that’s lost to me.

  6. The genuflecting has just begun.

  7. PS this morning I signed up to give her $20 a month regularly. I’ll give more in single donations now and then, but I wanted to get that commitment nailed down.

  8. I’m with you riverdaughter. At this moment Obama has offended me as a voter so greatly that I would be happy to live with a McCain presidency than give it to Obama. I’ve voted Democrat all my life, and never once considered voting for a Republican, but this election has changed me for good. I don’t feel like the Democratic party represents me as woman one bit. They have not stood up against the constant barrage of misogynistic attacks towards Hillary by the media and by Obama himself. They have disenfranchised American voters to tip the scales for Obama which I find incredibly appalling. Our forefathers are turning in their graves right now. I thought voting was one of our greatest rights as Americans. I can’t see how Obama can try to win my vote over at this moment. He has offended me so deeply by his race baiting, his vile campaign tactics in the caucuses, and his downright constant lying. F*ck him! That’s how I feel about him

  9. I like that RD points out that she has something that Obama wants (her vote) and he has to work for it.

    one thing that drives me crazy is that people forget that public officials are our employees. we pay their salaries. the moronic W once said that he doesn’t need to explain anything to anyone, cause he’s the president, people need to explain themselves to him. that is totally backwards and wrong. he misunderstood and thought the concept of ‘public servant’ means the public are his servants. backwards!!

    I fear Obama would be another who just doesn’t get that. it’s time he understands.

  10. katiebird: I donated another 25.00 today. We have all given several times in the last 5 weeks I think.

    kiki: Read TM earlier today and laughed out loud! Could picture her just banging away on the computer letting it all come out. Much like the rest of us here.

    And yes, I do consider myself a little more astute than those Obama supporters in many ways. Most of them are still undergrads, you can tell by the spelling errors, and haven’t yet met the real world.

    Also, I sent comments to that WashPo e-mail, the one who is writing the article about women voters feeling disenfranchised. Doubtful of a response but maybe somebody will have a feel for our position.

  11. I have an honest question for all of you, because I have been wondering this myself.

    For those of you who claim you will not vote for Obama, period (not those of you who prefer Hillary but do not mind voting for Obama). What would he need to do to obtain your vote, were he the nominee?.

  12. Don’t tell my husband, but I love you RD.

    It has been very hard for me, but I have decided that the best way to give the Democratic Party some ‘tough love’ this election is to not vote.It will be incredibly difficult for me to now vote, but I have done enough campaign work to know that they have a rundown of every voter’s history. In Maryland, I can’t write in Hillary unless she asks to have votes counted, which she will not do.

    I will not vote for Obama and I feel strongly that I , at my advanced age, need to do something for the women’s movement that has done so much for me. The sexist dealings of the DNC have cut me to the core.

    At some point, the DNC has to be made to realize that women carry the party. Women’s issues need to be appreciated and the votes of women need to be valued. Hillary is the best person to be President and I will not vote for a lesser man. Maybe the DNC has to be made aware of that. I plan on writing the DNC on election day and stating that I will not vote for any DNC candidate. I do not feel that any have stood up for women in this eleciton. Once Obama looses, someone in the DNC will note, too late, that women like me stayed home and that was what changed the result. McCain may be President , but history will note that women truly took control of US politics at that point.

    We are more powerful than we dare to realize.

  13. Look, the GOP Slime Machine isn’t going to sit idle while Obama campaigns against McCain. The delegates don’t vote until August. Promises mean nothing.

    Look how far Oh! bama has fallen since the beginning of March. His free-fall isn’t over, and it’s a long way to the bottom.

    So RD? Take a chill pill, Jill, and don’t be so impatient.

    Zombie Terminator Hillary cannot be stopped.

  14. Great column and comments. Hillary is going to be in Southern Oregon on Thursday—a late afternoon fundraiser in Ashland and an evening rally in Central Point. The local TV station usually broadcasts live. I dropped off my ballot on Monday. Hillary has my primary and GE vote.

  15. Even if he tried outreach it’d be too little, too late. It’s the equivalent of seating MI and FL after the nominee is selected. When the chips were down he either was silent or directly encouraging the batshittery (misogyny, race-baiting, homophobia, disenfranchisement, Harry & Louise, moralist rhetoric on choice, etc.). Besides, a tiger can’t change his stripes: he honestly believes he’s entitled to our vote.

    How I wish Clinton would/could take it to the convention, but her body language and words tell me otherwise.

  16. Here’s the response to Turkana I posted on Left Coaster:

    Turkana,

    I’ve already said on other blogs that I will vote for Obama in the fall. Not happily, not proudly, but because I simply can’t not vote. But the very worst thing that Clinton supporters need to be told right now is that they “must” vote for him, and that they “must” be “graceful in defeat.”

    I think that if Obama is indeed victorious — and I will only consider him victorious if he gets 2209 delegate votes, not 2025 (which assumes the complete disenfranchisement of MI and FLA) — then it is incumbent on him to be graceful in victory.

    Obama says he’s a uniter. I don’t quite agree with you that he’s not done anything divisive in this campaign, but if he really wants to be uniter, he’s got to start with his party. Let him reach out to us.

  17. I thought Donna Brazille said they didn’t need us!

  18. Upstate: I’m not trying to be contrary and I’d like to believe in redemption but at this point in time, the bar is so high, I just think he is incapable of reaching it. I suppose he would have to be as good as Clinton is in policy, experience and knowledge base to snag my vote. That would be a start. Beyond that, he’s have to do some major fence mending.
    But as long as she still has a shot at it, I don’t have to think about that. She’s my candidate. She’s the best presidential material that we’ve got and I;m not settling for 99th best just because his fan club is ready to commit homocide-suicide.

  19. From what I’ve seen on the table at the Unity banquet, I’d rather have dysentery.

  20. Obama lost me with: “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”

  21. UpstateNY: In answer to your question about what Obama needs to do to get my vote:

    When a man wanted “something” from me, I was at least entitled to dinner.

  22. UpstateNY:

    A: easy. he needs to do 3 things:

    1. Apologize to the Clintons for using the race card against them.
    2. Admit that he knew about the Rev wright and his hateful sermons.
    3. Admit that he knew about Rezko and communist friends in Chicago. Stop lying about them.

    Very easy to do.

  23. I do not mean to be too annoying about it but how can he “reach out to us” Is it realistic/desirable/ to expect an honest mea culpa?

  24. lol Pat….Obama needs to buy each of us dinner and a movie, at the very least.

  25. lady: That statement really blew my mind when I heard it. The stupidest, most officious comment I have heard barring any of W’s platitudes. That moment told me exactly that this election was simply about them.

  26. I like the dinner idea….;) but that will not buy my vote.

  27. Well, I must respond to this argument again. I could write ten pages on it. First, a vote for Obama is a vote for the permanent end of the Democratic Party which Wilson and FDR made. The remaking of this Party into a quasi-libertarian group of affluent coastie liberals, college students and African-Americans, is not going to be a one-time thing. The concerted efforts of this group to marginalize and then purge Bill Clinton, show us that. This will be the Party of Bill Maher and Arianna Huffington; of Spike Lee, and Rosie O’Donnell.. Figuratively, at least. As James Carville said recently, some people in the Democratic Party have been trying to win elections without the working-class Democrats for some time, Donna Brazile told us last night what she saw as the face of the Party: young people and African-Americans. Little place for, or interest in, the issues of White working-class Americans, seniors, Jewish people, Hispanics, Asian-Americans, or anyone else.

    And don’t think that Obama’s agenda will not reflect that. There is no chance in the world that he is going to push for national health care. There will be some effort to privatize social security. There will be no effort to curb credit card rates. (Obama bravely didn’t vote for the bill to cap them because “the cap was too high..”). Big Pharma will be left alone. That’s just some of it. People who care about Israel, like I do, should be very afraid. The rest of it I can’t predict, but I can assure you that the newly marginalized demographics of White working class citizens and Hispanics will be at the very back of the help line.

    Would Obama be a better President than McCain? Maybe; maybe not. McCain has many flaws, but he at least has shown a disposition to work across Party lines; and to move away from the corporatist Republican stance. Actually, a case can be made that electing McCain would “civilize” the Republican Party; keep it out of the hands of the wingnuts. If Obama wins, he may well be a one-term President, since he will only have won in a slam-dunk Democratic year; and has all sorts of demographic issues with the voters. If he loses in 2012, rest assured that the Republicans, once again in the tight grip of the religous right wing, will have elected a nightmare candidate, much worse than McCain might be. And yes, we will still be in Iraq by then, and the economy won’t be much better. So then where are we?

    The Supreme Court? That’s gone for at least 15 years, until Scalia retires. The latte liberals saw to that, when they voted for Nader. At least McCain will try to do something about global warming–will Obama? McCain’s belligerence is scary, but so is Obama’s apparent belief that you can have friendly conversations with mad dictators who want to destroy Israel. So there are many reasons to avoid voting for Obama. And of course there is also the fact that his supporters and advisors have called Hillary voters racists; both Clintons racist; have tried to destroy the entire Clinton legacy; are about the most sickening group of cultish, whiny, cheating thugs I have ever seen in Democratic politics. And finally, if Obama loses, at least I will have some hope for a future rebirth of my Democratic Party. And hope is always a good thing.

  28. he could admit that he takes lobbyist’s money. he could discuss actual policy ideas and give Hillary credit for the ones he’s cribbed. he could denounce the sexist and ageist themes that have run his campaign.

  29. I posted this on another thread but am re-posting it (forgive me) only because i really would like y’all’s opinion. I’m seriously thinking about this:

    has anybody looked at the Green Party lately? they’ve been around since 1984. they have ten key values:

    Grassroots Democracy
    Ecological Wisdom
    Social Justice and Equal Opportunity
    Nonviolence
    Decentralization
    Community Based Economics
    Feminism
    Respect for Diversity
    Personal and Global responsibility
    Future Focus and Sustainability

    which are fleshed out here:

    http://www.greenparty.org/values.php

    they could be viable with a huge influx of dissatisfied former democrats. I think they would welcome us.

  30. If the consequences of another Republican four years were so dire, they owed it to themselves and the rest of us to not act like lunatics and drag us into the path of a speeding train.

    This is what I’ve always thought. The entire course of Human history hinges on me voting for their guy, but they can’t be expected to be polite.

    I think I’ll assess how important it is that I acquiesce based on what *they’re* willing to give up. Which appears to be nothing at all. Which is *exactly* what they’ll get from me.

  31. Hillary and Bill are delivvering a clear message to the pathetic pols in DC: count MI and FL then they will concede the contest if they are behind. So far, the pathetic pols don’t want to count MI and FL.

  32. Maybe St. Oprah (another pain in my ass) will have Dr. Phil (him too) do an intervention with us.

  33. Heh, jd, if he does all that, it’s political suicide… though I don’t think a person can do political suicide twice… what you want him to do is to basically apologise for his first political suicide… ahh… what a mess….

  34. I totally agree with you, Pat. I also cannot get over the hate and disrespect directed toward the Clintons.

  35. “It isn’t necessary that those who support Clinton now enthusiastically come to support Obama, but it is necessary that they come to support him. Even at the bare minimum level. And that bare minimum level is to vote for him, in November. You don’t have to like doing so, but you do have to do so. ”

    Oh yeah? I don’t have to do a GD thing, And if I do do something it won’t be support Obama. I’ll take the alternative, but then again, I”m a bitter, clingy Pennsylvanian.

    Go to hell.

  36. Seriously, I’m sick and tired of the whole “McCain is the worst thing that can possibly happen to this country!!”

    Why then, did Kerry practically beg him to be his runningmate. And if McCain had accepted, Democrats would have been ecstatic.

    The fear card doesn’t work with me. Electing an empty suit on the Democratic side is the dumbest thing we could do for the Democratic brand. Allowing the travesty of this election to result in an Obama win is the very worst thing we can do for the long-term of the Democratic Party.

    Sitting this thing out so the Democrats will understand that we mean business is in the best interest of the long term progress of this country.

    Letting these crazy shrill activist idiots win is only a defeat for the principle of what is right. We’ll show them what holdout is really about.

  37. Obama probably can’t do anything that would work, because even when he ‘reaches out’ and tries to get real, he sounds condescending. he is condescending. he’s as out of touch with regular people as W.

  38. And that bare minimum level is to vote for him, in November. You don’t have to like doing so, but you do have to do so. The alternative is unthinkable.

    I have to vote for him, eh? And who is going to make me? Let’s get something straight–I did not choose the unthinkable alternative. You did. Proof of this statement is left as an exercise for the reader, to be completed in November.

  39. kiki: I don’t think that as a group just shifting from one party to another is the answer. I truly believe that a new, separate party must be established that will send a message that we are much stronger than we have been given credit for. Incorporating into another party who has already established their agenda is just “window shopping” in my view. If it means a party defection in the form of a third party revolution where women’s voices and concerns are heard I am most in favor.

  40. Sarah, Teresa, I agree. in fact, I’m beginning to think that a McCain presidency, with a Democratic congress, could spell the kind of gridlock that could give us all a breather.

    although I could be wrong. a Democratic congress with W has turned into an orgy of enabling.

    we might need to quit being distracted and concentrate on holding Democratic feet to the fire.

    or we may just need a new party, one that understands that they work for us. I’m really leaning that way.

  41. UpstateNY,

    Obama lost my vote when I saw the “resumes” his supporters have posted. And poked around his website trying to find some substantive experience. He’s nearly 47 years old, but his experience would fit a 30 year old.

    Honestly, I had no idea why the Experience issue was so important. But it is because Obama actually doesn’t have any experience. At least nothing remotely relevant to having the most important job in the world.

    Honestly, I’m astonished at how gently he’s been handled. He never belonged on the stage with any of the other candidates.

    Then I consider the “judgment” issue that was supposed to compensate for “experience” — I can hardly keep from crying. Judgment? I spit on Obama’s judgment.

  42. We need to do something.

    This whole thing reminds me of an abusive relationship.

    The DNC and the Democratic party need to be shown that they cannot take us for granted. And if Brazile and the others think they don’t need us, let’s have them prove it.

    We need to send a message and it has to be one they do not forget.

  43. Pat, I have to agree with kiki. I used to be a Dem (volunteered for Gore, even before I became a naturalized citizen). This year I became an independent. Third parties may not be viable in the States but choosing one to “send a message” to one of the main ones remains, in my opinion, a legitimate alternative. I know many of you hate him, but remember Nader? The DNC, certainly does.

  44. hey Pat, I do understand what you’re saying. I’m just a little interested in the greens right now because they actually have a platform that is wider than what I previously understood it to be (because I was a Dem and didn’t pay attention). I’m just thinking it might be easier to join an already established party than to start one from scratch. they have proven to be viable.

  45. I haven’t read your response yet RD, but I thought I better just dump off my initial response to that idjet
    so I didn’t have too much desire to beat someone on the head buildup.
    first, did that person just tell me that they were going to heal my soul?–cause I thought that’s what I heard

    second, did I just get talked down to? Did I just get ordered to take the moral highground. Did I just get verbally roughed up and told to get in line.

    Cause that don’t work on me. It makes me want to grab a blunt instrument (if I may be blunt).

    Now I will go read your response to the very-dim one–
    I’m sure it’s better than mine.

  46. kbird: “I spit on Obama’s judgment” (smiling)

  47. katiebird: I used to be a hospital recruiter and that resume does not fit the job description. I would have thanked him politely for his time and sent him a non select letter before he got out of the parking lot. No experience, no background, no judgment, nothing outstanding in accomplishments, and failure to make eye contact. Okay, I threw the last one in.

  48. Any comments?

    I thought it ranged at times between plausible and on the money.

  49. Oh yeah – AND insult my candidate…even in the make up letter?

    “….Clinton is not going to be president. She was lied about, smeared, vilified and demonized. And that was just by the corporate media. There was never going to be objective reporting. The behavior of many Democrats, particularly in the shrillosphere, was inexcusably petty, dishonest, and manipulative. People exposed themselves in ways that will never be forgotten.”

    AND tell me that the Dems in the “shrillosphere” (nice touch ,you sexist weasel) have been petty, dishonest, and manipulative? And it it won’t be forgotten?

    I’d rather have my fingernails pulled out one by one than vote for Obama.

  50. Adrienne: I think you got the jist of my response pretty damn good

  51. AdrienneJ: “Cause that don’t work on me. It makes me want to grab a blunt instrument”.

    Heh, heh

  52. I don’t think there is anything Obama could do to get my vote at this point. If he had reached out in January or February when I was looking at all the candidates and asked for my vote, I might have been won over. But it’s far too late now. And when Obama supporters, or even nice people like Turkana lecture me about how I have to vote for the nominee, I get even more determined to never vote for Obama.

    We have to teach the DNC and the Dem leadership a lesson. If we knuckle under and vote for Obama, they’ll just take us for granted forever. At this point, I’d rather have McCain than Obama. I won’t vote for McCain, but I won’t be sorry when he whips Obama’s ass. Obama isn’t going to be any better for ME than McCain. They both oppose universal health care, they both want to destroy social security and what’s left of the social safety net.

    I’m going to join you, Riverdaughter, and register as “Independent.” I won’t be taken for granted and disrespected anymore by these creeps.

  53. I always laugh when Katiebird spits on things 🙂

    she’s a spitter!!! (and picks her targets well)

  54. McCain campaign will hit Obama hard with the following, especially considering Obama is trying to present himself as a “Democratic”* McCain:

    Teresa23 Said:

    Seriously, I’m sick and tired of the whole “McCain is the worst thing that can possibly happen to this country!!”

    Why then, did Kerry practically beg him to be his runningmate. And if McCain had accepted, Democrats would have been ecstatic.

    *No, Obama is not a Democrat, but that’s the image he’s trying to sell: a Democrat Republicans can like. Unlike Obama, however, McCain actually has core principles (not that I agree with them).

  55. go Adrienne! yeah!!!

  56. Oh, and in my opinion the Supreme Court is already lost. If young women are worried about their reproductive rights, let them fight for them. I already fought that fight and thought we had won. If they want to cast their lot with Obama, good luck to them when he sells them down the river.

  57. Ack, I totally screwed up the blockquote!

  58. katiebird, I can’t even find evidence of a prior full time job. You know, once the lights go out, and the speeches are over, someone actually has to govern. We are reaching crisis point here at home and abroad. For me, Hill’s strongest argument to the SD’s is she is actually prepared for the job. In MA we learned the hard way that relevant experience actually matters, and that was just on the Governor level, not the Presidential.

  59. bostonboomer, I 100% agree with you there.

  60. >^..^< lady said:

    Obama lost me with: “We are the ones we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.”

    Yeah, I’ve been scratching my head over that one for months. “I’m campaigning for change. What is change? We are the change we’ve been waiting for. We are the change that we seek.” What the hell does that mean? It sounded like Michael Caine in “Miss Congeniality,” “Wear the Crown. Be the Crown.”

    UpState NY said :

    I do not mean to be too annoying about it but how can he “reach out to us” Is it realistic/desirable/ to expect an honest mea culpa?

    Yes. An honest mea culpa and some acknowledgement of his mistakes and some growth would be a start.

    teresa23 said:

    Seriously, I’m sick and tired of the whole “McCain is the worst thing that can possibly happen to this country!!”

    Actually, I do believe that McCain is the worst thing that can possibly happen to this country. He’s not fit to be president. Not because he lacks experience, but because he has precisely the wrong kind of experience: a lifetime of phony independence, of coasting on his reputation as a war hero, of thinking he understands foreign policy when he doesn’t, of thinking that it is beneath him to understand basic economics. And McCain is scleroticized politically: it’s too late for him to change, or learn or grow. He’s just going to be General Buck Turgidson as President.

    But just because I believe that doesn’t mean that I can swallow being told that I “must” vote for Obama because it is incumbent upon me to be graceful in defeat. Indeed, that sort of thing could quickly convince me to change my mind about grudgingly voting for Obama in the fall.

  61. “but it is necessary that they come to support him”
    Oh no, we don’t. Hell will freeze over first. He is NOT qualified to be president.

  62. yeah BB, the democrats have no use for post-menopausal women. they can start from scratch, or even further back. wtf are they thinking?

  63. MyDD is saying that Hillary and Chelsea were booed and heckled at an outing in WVa today. It was written up by the NYT. Obama supporters attempted to drown out both but they kept on with the speech. She is a viable candidate for office, an older much accomplished woman, her daughter is onstage with her, and the Neanderthal crowd is yelling. Nothing, and I mean nothing, will get me to vote for him. The lack of manners and respect from that quarter is intensifying.

  64. Obama has gotten where he’s gotten by eliminating the competition. not by competing, by eliminating. thus the wwtsbq stuff.

    this surely won’t work on the world stage. what are people thinking?

  65. Pat: actually Neanderthals had larger brains that the Cromagnons who booed Hillary and Chelsea 😉 I had not heard about that incident…shame on them.

  66. Upstate, I haven’t read all the other comments so forgive me if I repeat what someone else had said, but I wanted to answer your question. There is nothing that Obama could do that would cause me to vote for him. Or, to put it more crudely, there ain’t enough ass in the world for him to kiss . . . .

    Hillary is the only candidate left in the race who is equal to the task before us of getting out of the ditch Dubya has driven us into, but I actually think McCain would be slightly better than Obama as President. (And for anyone about to say SCOTUS, don’t even . . . .) Obama has no accomplishments to warrant his being elected, he has surrounded himself with people even more frightening than Nixon or Bush’s advisers, and his campaign has been so filled with hate for so many loyal factions of the party that I cringe to think what an Obama administration would entail.

    I don’t think if he gets the nomination he has any realistic chance of beating McCain, and for that I am thankful. It is my hope that McCain will be a one-term wonder, that all members of SCOTUS will remain healthy for those four years, and that sane people will regain control of the Democratic Party in the meantime.

  67. I’m for Hillary because of her experience. If Obama wants my vote, he just needs to spend a few years beefing up his resume with bonafide experience.

    Right now, he’s just too much of a lightweight for me to consider seriously when a perfectly wonderful alternative (Hillary) is ready for the job now.

    I have a whole bunch of friends (mix of race/gender) who months ago voted enthusiastically for Obama in caucuses and primaries. Since the emergence of more info (like Rev. Wright, bitter comments, poor debate performance) they have all told me they will not vote for him in a general election. They have serious voter remorse and feel they ‘just got caught up in the hype’.

    I find it fascinating that they ALL feel that way now. I wonder how many others who voted in early primaries feel the same way about Obama today as they did back then?

    I hope we don’t have to find out anytime soon. Go Hillary!

  68. we all do need to be praying daily for the health of the SCOTUS people. some of them, anyway…….

  69. MessyMarcy: “there ain’t enough ass in the world for him to kiss . . . . ”

    heh…comments like this are the reason I love this site.

  70. Melanie, “I can’t even find evidence of a prior full time job.”

    I can’t either. So, tell me: We’re grown ups. We’ve hired people or had input in hiring people. Sometimes we get to see the resumes of our boss’s boss.

    And I’m guessing that in our circle of acquaintances we’re the ones expected to know what’s going on. If we give him our support then, at some point our reputations will be linked to him.

    This fall when your friends and family ask about Obama’s Experience & Judgement — What will you say?

    When they ask about some of the things that are barely whispered about today (they’ll start getting those email rumors) — what will you say?

    Pat: That’s hideous. This is more like a junior high election everyday.

  71. Some of the well intentioned blogs over there are asking for an Obama supporter to say one nice thing about Hillary supporters and one of Hillary supporters to say something positive about Obama supporters. Does this sound like every motivational meeting you have ever been forced to attend? Like a David Allen Seminar perhaps? Give me a break!

  72. tabath, that’s the audacity of hype.

  73. I just sent the following, signed email to McGovern:

    Subject: Endorsing Obama
    Date: Wed, 07 May 2008 22:44:38 -0400
    To: mcgoverncenter@dwu.edu

    Mr. McGovern,

    I fought hard for you in ’72 and honored you with my respect and
    loyalty, even after you lost. Today you made me sorry I did, and if I
    could take back my vote I would.

    Today I was most ashamed to be a democrat, so I’m leaving your party
    after 40 years of loyalty. It’s as rotten to the core as the
    Republicans. Good luck winning in the fall without this tossed-out, “old
    coalition,” “white blue-collar” woman, married to a Vietnam vet.

    Sadly, you’re an opportunist as rank as a lobbyist.

  74. In response to Pat Johnson about MyDD reporting that Hillary and Chelsea were booed and heckled at an outing in WVa today:

    I don’t know guys. At some point do we shed the Queensbury (sp) rules shit and fight back against the terrorism techniques?

    Are we on a Ghandi mission here? thinking that these assholes will at some point see that they are behaving in an unquestionably hideous manner? And how long will that take?

    Somewhere I read a latina today expressing the thought that she was sick of the AA threats of violence; that the latino community made up a sizable minority themselves; that there was some thought that perhaps if everybody was going to be doling out threats…

    I don’t know… you tell me. I liked reading what she said. There must be some technique for dealing with these hideous people. Now of course the NYT reports their bad behavior. And what happens? of course, nothing. it is reported as showing the support the asshole candidate gets, not to show how poorly the thugs behave.

    I feel like we’re behaving so well. and they are behaving so criminally.. and we’re waiting for someone to acknowledge that… but no one is.

    Perhaps if someone could just tell me how the DNC rules are set up to get rid of Dean, I would be happy.

  75. Kiki, LOL!!

  76. I feel like the original Turkana post misses a really important point. It is not *your* job to vote for the candidate, it is the candidates job to convince you to vote for him/her.

    In a way I think the campaign is fast approaching a point where the nominee will have to do some “unifying” or whatever you would like to call it. Now I do not agree with a lot of the negative characterizations of BO here but there has to be some validity to them or a legitimate grievance. A lot of that unifying should (and will I think) come from listening to the critics within his/her own party and addressing their complaints.

    The burden of proof for a “unifier” is on them, not on potential “unitees.” The definition of the word literally hinges on it. Pointing out how bad McCain’s policies actually are is a cop out. The nominee is going to have to meet half way so to speak.

  77. UpstateNY asks:

    I have an honest question for all of you, because I have been wondering this myself.
    For those of you who claim you will not vote for Obama, period (not those of you who prefer Hillary but do not mind voting for Obama). What would he need to do to obtain your vote, were he the nominee?.

    FrenchDoc has a fine list. Surprisingly, it’s the very first comment. Does that help?

  78. I read that Steve Soto also has a post up, this one bashing Hill and telling her to drop out. Is the entire Left Coaster turning against her now? Ah, well.

  79. whaleshaman, very nice!

  80. btw, my hispanic friends blew their gaskek this afternoon after I showed them the Brazile comment last night. We are translating it to Spanish and will distribute wide and wider in CA.

  81. Adrienne: Here is the problem. The tone has already been established. Right from the beginning. HuffPo and Kos allowed the nitwit brigade to post anything and everything disrespectful against Hillary. That led to wider breeches of discourse. Thus, blogs like this had no choice but to split off just to maintain some sense of civility. Where rules were established on this blog, no monitoring of the most outrageous comments against her were ever in play.

    As a result, talking heads, especially KO who blogs for Kos, was able to liberally express his bias through derision and snarl and it became part of the MSM agenda. The talking heads took those cues to heart because you will not find too many voices in defense of this behavior toward her. Frat boy mentality became the norm, an open season of disrespect. Hillary bad, Obama good.

    Obama could have made an effort by setting an example to quell the tone. He did not and it has worked to his advantage. For someone running on the platform of hope, change, and unity, this would have been the place to put those words into practice. And like every misbehaved child who has not been shown boundaries, his supporters by and large accommodated that tone.

    It is a little too late now for politeness to finally show itself. He is a phony by stepping aside when he could have shown not only decency but leadership. He is sadly lacking in both.

  82. Pat J, your comment reminded me of the paid young people who worked for Joe Lieberman. They followed Ned Lamont around during his entire campaign, constantly booing and heckling when he gave a speech. Sorry, Turkana, the nature of the supporters really does tell me a lot about the candidate. We all know what happened to Joe Lieberman, the “independent Democrat”–he’s now supporting John McCain and pushing for more war in the Middle East.

    Nice rant, RD. I especially like the tag: “grace my ass”! I don’t think I’ve ever seen a tag quite like that before, but it does get the point across very clearly.

  83. The damage has been done.

    I will not vote for Barack Obama. And I hope that Hillary Clinton will keep going until the convention. I will be right there with her on that convention floor.

    Today I switched my party affiliation from Democrat to Independent after 27 years of voting in every state, local and federal election. I have been an office holder, supporter, activist, contributor and fighter for my party….(hear me Donna Brazile). Today, I said no more.

    I say no more to the likes of Claire McCaskill who is debased the dignity of women as any female I have ever heard speak in politics: the Democrats in Congress who felt it necessary to attack another Democrat to try to get the rest of us in line: the press and television ‘personalities’ who lost control and forfeited any decency they had left by abusing and attempting to humiliate a woman running for office, void of any balance nor professionalism in again attempting to choose another President of the United States; the DNC who has not once in the last year heard or even acknowledged 50% of the Democratic voters in this country who have a voice.

    As Donna Brazille said, the party is realigning itself with younger and wealthier voters and discarding working class, middle class, poor, elderly and even rural. As she stated, she’s wealthy now and apparently wants the party to move to her class. Well Donna, I’m w3ealthier now also but I’m moving on and out.

    I feel that Barack Obama is unqualified to be President of the United Sates. I will not be one to vote for a party over my own convictions, which I know to be authentic.

    I didn’t leave the Democratic Party. The Democratic Party left me.

  84. My comment on Turkana’s final line:

    And keep in mind that the often odious behavior you have seen from online Obama supporters is not the fault of the candidate himself.

    Sure it is.

    1. The candidate’s the one in charge. Not every little thing, but a pervasive patten of behavior? Absolutely that’s his responsbility.

    2. Axelrod’s day job is doing Astroturging for big corporations. And he doesn’t know what his supporters are doing online? When the Obama Internet operation is famously good? I don’t think so.

    NOTE Not all control systems are top down.

  85. RealityCheck: A perfect summation.

  86. Of course Obama is responsible for the tone of his supporters. He’s gone around the country making the case that he should be President becuase Hill is too “divisive”, which is code for bitch. He’s said his supporters won’t support her. He’s told african americans not to be “bamboozled”, “hoodwinked” or played the “ole hokey doke” by the Clintons, that’s about as divisive as you can get. His wife said she wasn’t sure she could support her because of her “politics”, this from a life long member of the Daley machine. One thing that I have found particularly ugly about Obama is that he has argued that only he is change. And, like it or not folks, he is saying that because he’s african american. A white guy could never run against the first viable female candidate and argue that only he is change, just ask John Edwards. I mean, he has never acknowledged the ground Hillary is breaking, which will benefit his little girls. That disturbs me to no end. Hillary has been so gracious to him and his supporters and that’s why Hillary’s supporters don’t thug him or his supporters.

  87. In Steve Soto’s post last night telling Hillary to drop out and telling all of us to line up to support Obama – two points he made really struck me.

    First he says: “it will be a challenge, as the party is about to test the proposition that his core voters can lead the party to a general election victory.”

    Then he finished up with: “If you are a Clinton supporter, please leave your disappointment behind as you enter the voting booth in November. Your opponent is not Barack Obama, but rather the bastards across the aisle that got us here.”

    My comment in response:

    Hey Steve,
    Thanks for telling me who my “real” opponents are. And thanks also for kicking me in the ass on my way out the door and reminding me not to be mad.

    I’ll tell you what – The Precious and his “core voters” can lead the way to their own general election victory. They’ve decided to alienate half of the Democratic base. Let’s see how well that works out for them. I’m already a registered Independent and will be watching from the sidelines. I’ve been disenfranchised for the last time.

    Here’s a sarcastic answer I got from a MisterOpus1:

    Darrow, if McCain wins, I don’t ever want to hear one gripe, one bitch, one moan out of you, because you are the last person on earth to have any credibility to do so. I hope that certainly makes you feel good, allowing another Bush-like President into the office, just because your widdle feelings got all hurt between these two great candidates.
    Something tells me, however, that you were never too terribly aligned with Democratic values in the first place. Can’t imagine why I think that…..”

    What a frigging jackass. “Widdle feelings”. And insinuating that I’m not a real Democrat? Someone’s a little bitter maybe?

    My response:

    MisterOpus,
    Don’t worry. I won’t be bitching, griping or moaning about the general election. I’m not allowing another Bush into the White House. The pie-eyed idiots who think Obama can beat McCain after they’ve alienated half of the Democratic base are.

    So I don’t want to hear any whining or bitching from you when Barry and his core voters go down in flames this fall because they were in a rush to coronate their unvetted, inexperienced Precious and decided that disenfranchising half of their party was the way to victory.

    And that’s why what Riverdaughter said about them acting like lunatics and dragging us in front of a speeding train really hit home for me. They were/are so manic that they can’t even see that they’re backing a sure loser. Now they want us to get onboard and back their loser after they’ve insulted us and told us they don’t need us. I say screw ’em.

  88. Thank the goddess for this post and these comments. It’s. Not. My. Job. to kiss it and make it all better for Obama and his asshole supporters. You want my vote? Earn it, don’t coerce it, b/c coercion ain’t gonna work with me.

  89. Lambert: you are completely right, French Doc has a very comprehensive wish list. I just do not see Obama, the nominee, changing his policies that much any time soon, and from what I have read in this and other blogs, much of the animosity towards him by Hillary supporters will not dissipate with yet another transcendental mea culpa speech (plus I doubt it would ever happen) or by Hillary asking us to vote for him.

    And yet, practicality dictates that we (silly old coalition democrats) support him no matter what if Repbs. are to be defeated.

    jd: As a new immigrant, I am annoyed like hell by those comments. I cannot believe that other Hispanics are not mad as well.

  90. I know I am almost alone here in thinking the gastax holiday was a bad idea…(and how nice to be in a friendly place where I can publicly explore different ideas 😉 ) but I had a thought about that (to me) strange move on her part:

    You know that theory that teenagers become so obnoxious so you’ll be able to stand seeing them leave home?

    I think for Hillary to throw us policy wonks under the bus with the gas tax holiday – she was trying to make it easier for us to let go.

    She won 59 in PA and with pretty much the same demographic – only 51 in IN…don’t you think its the policy wonk voter that left her over the gastaxholiday?

    Who could imagine her ever saying that she wouldn’t listen to experts? It was not her usual brilliant self. She is loved because she is so smart. But she was channeling Little Boots…Even Krugman and Romm were shocked.

  91. doctcommodity: “don’t you think its the policy wonk voter that left her over the gastaxholiday?”

    No.

  92. I will not support Barack H. Obama. Period.

    Obama is arrogant, egotistical, empty suit with no record who is going to be a manchurian candidate run by people like Dean, Brazile, Pelosi, Kerry, Kennedy, Daley and so on.

    He is going to bring in radical left positions and he is going to push black liberation theology down our throats, along with more mysogynist crap.

    Let’s not forget that Michele Obama would be a disgrace to the White House and to all of America.

    I would rather see 4 more years of a neocon [although Mcain is supposed to be more centrist than Bush] than putting in a neolib for 4 bad / corrupt Chicago style politics – and making it a sure thing for 8 or more years of more neocons.

    Let McCain win in 2008 and then Hillary for 2012 – when she can finally clean up after all these hacks.

  93. No, dotcommodity. I don’t think so. It’s a red state. Fewer core Democrats, fewer elderly.

  94. Must go to bed now. Tomorrow going to hospital with wife. Good night.

  95. I will NOT SUPPORT Barack Obama if he is the nominee.

    I have been purged from the Democratic party by his supporters.

    I am unaffiliated as of now.

  96. I still like the mass de registration idea. It has a nice lilt to it.

  97. Oh, UpstateNY — I hope she’ll be OK…

  98. Rezko trial gone to the jury.

  99. Upstate NY: Good luck.

  100. All I have to say is how patronizing can he/she get?

  101. katiebird: Still with us?

  102. From the Hope Springs Eternal Dept.

    “I Now Believe He Is Teh Weakest of The Democratic Nominees” Rush Limbaugh re Barack Obama. Rush Limbaugh endorses Obama.

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/07/limbaugh-comes-out-for-obama/

  103. Hi Pat — Yes, I guess I got engrossed in everyones comments.

  104. here’s some more people they dont need according to openleft:
    http://openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=5637

    quote:
    ‘I have heard from several sources that the Obama campaign is sending out signals to donors, specifically at last weekend’s Democracy Alliance convention, to stop giving to outside groups, including America Votes. The campaign also circulated negative press reports about Women’s Voices Women’s Vote, implying voter suppression’……
    …….I’m also told, though I can’t confirm, that Obama campaign has also subtly encouraged donors to not fund groups like VoteVets and Progressive Media. These groups fall under the ‘same old Washington politics’ which he wants to avoid, a partisan gunslinging contest he explicitly advocates against. ‘
    unquote

    umm …..votevets? founded in 2006 – i’ve contributed to them cause i’m intent on seeing charlie brown take ca cd 4
    wvwv? founded in 2006? voter suppression (yeah i read all that bs a few days ago )
    americavotes? 2003 – i called swing states in 2004 for Kerry with their lists

    these guys are now ‘the same old washington politics’ – eh???

    disclaimer – i dont know how to do the fancy linking …sorry

  105. Thanks for so many inspiring posts after a long two days.

    I had similar problems today with work colleagues. But I forgive most of them because they would have been equally happy if she had won. They just want the “horrible fighting” to end. Plus they fear McCain.

    That’s who we have to reach but unfortunately time has run out. The only real mistake Hilary made was being too soft on the little bastard in the beginning. But ultimately it secured her place in history and our hearts by pushing forward with class.

    We will probably all walk out (i.e. not vote for him) and many will join us in our too silent march. But it sure would be nice to deliver that message prior to November.

    Oh yeah — no way do we stand by while thugs go after Hilary and Chelsea. Things really went south for Dems in Florida when we didn’t get down and dirty to fight for that election. That would include standing up to corporate rioters.

    Off to eat dinner after I cheer up my non-blogging friends with copies of most of today’s posts. (Don’t worry, RD, I always give full credit.

  106. I agree with so many of you, realitycheck9, darrow, et al

    Lets go for the mass de-registration idea – let’s have a date or date range…so they will get the message.

  107. This may have been lost in the filter…

    Rush Limbaugh endorses Obama. Says he is the weakest of the democratic nominees. Once again, the world is topsy turvy.

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/07/limbaugh-comes-out-for-obama/

  108. How come Hillary can do what we can’t…come on guys, shake it off.

    “Clinton to Female Base: ‘I’ve Come Back Before’”

    “Even as doubts were raised about Hillary Clinton’s ability to continue in the race, the New York senator spent part of Wednesday evening energizing some of her most important supporters.

    A crowd of 1,500 gathered at the “Generations of Women for Hillary” fundraiser at the Omni Shoreham Hotel in Washington, paying at least $250 a plate and helping to raise about $1 million for the campaign. Campaign Chairman Terry McAuliffe, addressing attendees, offered no indication that Clinton would be slowing down in her bid for the White House. “She is going to Denver as the nominee of the Democratic Party of the United States of America.”

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/05/07/limbaugh-comes-out-for-obama/

  109. Guys, go check out TaylorMarsh, she has some terrific posts up. Much positive and forward looking stuff. You’ll feel better.

  110. “I think for Hillary to throw us policy wonks under the bus with the gas tax holiday – she was trying to make it easier for us to let go.” (Dotcommodity)

    … and then proceeded to lend her campaign more money and encouraged us to contribute and continue on to the next primaries.

  111. dotcommodity, here:

    http://www.mydd.com/story/2008/5/7/164935/7400

    She won the gas tax debate.

  112. Whatever may be the republicans fault but they don’t trash their ex presidents. One of the most despicable thing about Obama campaign was how he was given a free hand both by the DNC establishment and the elite liberals to repeatedly trash Bill Clinton’s presidency. That to me was inexcusable besides many other things and of course to me early in the campaign that was the turning point when from liking Obama I came to distrust him and his team.
    If Obama is the demcocratic nominee, I will be rooting for McCain whom I find much better than Obama in more ways than one.
    And as a democrat my duties will be to do my level best to ensure that the senate and house majority remain firmly with Democrats.

  113. I really like your approach dotcommodity. You’re not quite alone. Teasing apart details and hashing out the nuts and bolts pro/cons of a plan is really my cup of tea.

    What I wonder about IN is how fresh in the minds of voters their own 2000 gas tax holiday was and the perception of it was? I can’t find it again (as usual) but I saw a gallup poll that had ~ 50/50 split among americans on in favor vs oppose the holiday.

  114. I take my cue for what I owe Obama, from what Obama has shown he owes me – as a Democrat, a woman, the labor vote, white, poor, over the age of 35.

    In other words – I’m not his friend.

  115. Oh – and one other thing:

    There was never going to be objective reporting. The behavior of many Democrats, particularly in the shrillosphere, was inexcusably petty, dishonest, and manipulative. People exposed themselves in ways that will never be forgotten. But none of that changes either the result or the necessity of salving the wounds, stepping back, and maintaining both composure and perspective.

    Too bad for Obama, isn’t it?

    RD thank you for this entire post. I cannot describe how furious comments like these make me.

  116. I agree with much of what Turkana says. Except that I am convinced that Hillary’s supporters, at least on line, are miles better than most of the Obama-supporting jerks in the blogosphere.

    I hope a Netroots 2.0 arises from what people like Riverdaughter are doing. Turkana has put his/her finger on what has happened in the lefyt blogosphere — “The Great Convergence” with the MSM to bash Hillary Clinton and the Clinton legacy.

    We need to look beyond our grave disappointments with Obama and talk about what should be done with the Old Netroots.

    Anyone read the Dune series? We’re like those who left in the scattering.

  117. g’night everyone. Thank you for making this a much better day than I expected.

  118. Does Turkana and Co. think that the Democratic voters of Florida and Michigan are not going to care about their votes for this primary?

    Is the DNC so short-sighted that they do not see how much not counting those votes is going to damage the Democratic brand?

    This is all about Clintons. and the feeling of the pundit class towards the Clintons.

    Even Bob Somerby has been saying FOR MANY MONTHS that HRC is not going to be the candidate.

    The present distortion of the mental processes of intelligent Americans is astounding!

    Hillary Clinton is the only candidate who has the skill to handle the presidency at this time – that is just a fact. She is not perfect but is moderate, tireless, knowledgeable, compassionate and experienced.

    Why does the blogerati and hip MSM etc care so much if the Clintons are in the White House? HRC & Bill don’t have big egos. They are very competent civil servants.

    Are people really so threatened by the Clintons? Are they not aware of the real threat the planet faces right now? Do they not know how fearful the population is?

    HRC is the only candidate, right now, who can handle the job. I have nothing at stake in this. If there was someone else, any gender or ethnic background fine, but there isn’t!

  119. When RonK says, “From what I’ve seen on the table at the
    Unity banquet, I’d rather have dysentery,” I want to cry.
    Although I feel like the party has let me down I can’t
    completely walk away so I will work for the reelection of my
    Congressman.
    As to Obama, unless he gets down from that pony and
    kisses some serious ass I can see myself weeping
    unabashedly as I exit my polling place in November.

  120. I’m scratching my face (with my middle finger) as I type this… and I can hear you all cheering loudly. The day Obama did that was the day he lost all hope of my ever casting a ballot for him. He has set the tone for the reprehensible behavior of his followers; it’s on him, no one else!

    There is no way Obama can win this on pledged delegates before the convention, UNLESS Hillary hands it to him. And she d*mn well better not. Unless this process (nice Obama word there) is allowed to play out, there will be no legitimate nominee.

    And about those, oh, so newly minted, fresh-faced young dems… the ones who are so much more valuable than those of us who work for a living, or, heaven forfend, have retired… they’re a work in progress. By November, there could be a new rock star on stage, or maybe a new cult to follow. I wouldn’t bet the ranch that there votes will be any more forthcoming than mine.

  121. why, jacilyn, you’re a typical white woman!

    rd, I thank you too, from the bottom of my heart.

    and whoever equated this primary process to domestic abuse, I don’t care if Obama came crawling on his knees [I know, ain’t gonna happen] crying babybabybabyimsoooosorry please take me back, well, that ain’t gonna happen either.

    But if I were making a list, first thing I’d ask for is for him to own up to and apologize for giving Hillary the finger.

  122. Just another “no way, no how I’ll vote for Obama” comment. You just don’t start disenfranchising people of their right (not privilege) to vote under such flimsy pretenses. I’ll not participate in the election of a candidate who thinks it’s OK to do that (along with about four dozen other reasons I’ll never vote for him). He’s as bad as Bush in several significant ways.

  123. What would he need to do to obtain your vote, were he the nominee?

    It’s impossible. I don’t believe and never did that he’s ready to be president. Then, there was the smearing of the Clintons as racists. There was giving Hillary the finger. And the whole time, there’s been Obama fans on the blogs & who I know in real life being complete assholes and taking cheap shots at Hillary for months.

    No way. My current job is at an association that likely will devote resources to support him as the nominee if it comes to that. I don’t think he gives a shit about progressive values. I might well quit and might be angry enough to even do what I can in spare time to help McCain. Definitely will not vote for Obama. I don’t agree with McCain on much of anything but having him as president is less likely to destroy the Democratic party for years to come. Obama will throw any and all Dem values under the bus the instant it’s politically challenging for him.

    I have heard from several sources that the Obama campaign is sending out signals to donors, specifically at last weekend’s Democracy Alliance convention, to stop giving to outside groups, including America Votes. The campaign also circulated negative press reports about Women’s Voices Women’s Vote, implying voter suppression…… I’m also told, though I can’t confirm, that Obama campaign has also subtly encouraged donors to not fund groups like VoteVets and Progressive Media. These groups fall under the ’same old Washington politics’ which he wants to avoid, a partisan gunslinging contest he explicitly advocates against.‘

    It’s already started.

  124. If Hillary decides to run as an Independent for POTUS, then I’m voting for her. Obama will lose anyway in all the red states where he won in caucuses and primaries in red states with large AA populations to McCain, and he’ll lose in big states that Hillary won such as NY, PA, OH, CA, MI and FL, making him irrelevant in such a contest. Hillary will peel off GOP voters from McCain and win the presidency in a three way race.

  125. COMMENT OF THE DAY, WEEK, AND MONTH:

    Nadai wrote:

    If the consequences of another Republican four years were so dire, they owed it to themselves and the rest of us to not act like lunatics and drag us into the path of a speeding train.

    This is what I’ve always thought. The entire course of Human history hinges on me voting for their guy, but they can’t be expected to be polite.

  126. My one regret is that I live in a state (TN) where voters don’t register by party, so I can’t send a message by re-registering as an independent if they drive Hillary out of the race. 😦

    Wonder if there’s a way to be a Dem at the state level, but tell the Fed head-up-their-asses Dean contingent to take a hike…

  127. Riverdaughter, this post and the comments are why I love this blog. I hope you know how much this place means to us.

  128. I unloaded on Steve Soto today. To his credit, he kept my answer up. I told him he could should shove Donna Brazile up his ass while he was at it all, because I suspect she would fit quit nicely.

    Younger feminists have joined in the Clinton bashing just as enthusiastically as the young men. It frees me. If they aren’t worried about protecting their right to chose, then I don’t have to worry about it either.

    It’s telling that Turkana addressed his/her plight to the Clinton supporters. Turkana knows that there is no reasoning with Obama supporters and that if there is to be unity, Clinton supporters will have to provide it.I think working class Dems and older women not turning out to vote in their usual numbers might scare the hell out of the Democratic party. I don’t mind the idea of President McCain if the Dem congress is shaking in their boots that people like me won’t turn out and vote for them if they don’t toe the line a bit more closely.

    I’m not afraid. This country survived the Civil War and it will survive President McCain. Just like the Democratic party will survive the loss of the election. If Clinton loses, I’m just going to buckle up and look forward to 2012. Tomorrow is another day.

  129. I remember Turkana writing snarky things about Geraldine Ferraro. Specifically, when all the media were attacking her as a racist and Ferraro was standing up for herself, Turkana wrote:

    “Geraldine Ferraro, how can we miss you if you don’t go away?”

    Later I read a very disturbing diary on TalkLeft put up by Big Tent Democrat. He was livid that some woman had written an article saying that misogyny is alive and well in the blogs. He ranted and ranted that she was calling the great KOS a misogynist. And several women tried to put some sense into his head about the article and he was ugly with them beyond belief because he was so livid that KOS had, in his opinion, been called a sexist. Of course, the article said no such thing about KOS specifically.

    I dumped Talk Left off my favorites when I read the snarky thing about Geraldine Ferraro. I’m not surprised to see this garbage coming out of there now.

    As for voting for B.O? Not ever. It’s about the misogyny and the msm attacks on HRC, but it’s about him, too. He is crooked as a dog’s hind leg.

    This is what someone wrote on another site:

    “Obama has been exposed as a confused, lying, bigoted, elitist, bitter, religion-clinging, unaccomplished buffoon.

    There is no way McCain could win against Clinton. Now he’s gonna get a 40 state rout, courtesy of unconscionable Democrat Party leadership. It’s a lay-down, which is why I think Hillary still has a trump card. ”

    No, I won’t be voting for B.O. under any circumstances.

    And I am reading this and that about a dream ticket. I would hope HRC wouldn’t accept a VP appointment. She could be so powerful in the Senate. Even if he picked her, which I doubt considering his hatred of older white women, he would never allow her to do a thing.

  130. I like Turkana, and I read some of the article until I couldn’t read anymore. As I read it, my mind kept screaming: I do not agree! Here is the list of why Obama will never get my vote:
    The race baiting and accusations that the Clintons are racists
    The whining about how evil HRC is
    The disrespect when Obama wiped his shoulders at a rally and perhaps gave the finger to HRC
    The “You’re likable enough” remark
    The snob at the SOTU

    Gallup has a nice bar chart
    The title of the bar chart is
    Obama’s support similar to Kerry’s in 2004

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/107110/Obamas-Support-Similar-Kerrys-2004.aspx

  131. Oops! Turkana is on the Left Coaster. Sorry.

  132. Be sure to tell the DNC in writing that you won’t be participating NOW. Get the point across NOW when it might make a difference.

    I can’t think of any thing that Barack Obama could do to get my vote except destroy the chokehold that the consolidated media has on elections so that we are not handed its servants as candidates. Stop all campaign ads that cost money. They have to be free for real candidates. The airwaves are owned by the people.

    Start your own Truth and Reconciliation tour to redeem yourself after playing the race card against the Clintons. You aren’t fit to like their boots.

    Obama’s biggest mistake was his incredible lack of judgment in thinking that he had any business running for President. Isn’t it the most demanding job in the world? Bored with the Senate after less than a year and already comparing yourself to Lincoln and JFK.

    Pure narcissism.

    Karma’s a bitch and what you have wrought will come back to haunt you. The next time an empty suit says he is a “uniter not a divider” everyone run away as fast as you can.

  133. Erratum: That should have been “lick” not “like” their boots.

  134. I will not decide what I’m going to do about the Presidential election for some months. However, it’s worth getting through to the Obama crowd that nobody “has to” do anything. It’s entirely possible that Obama just isn’t enough of a Democrat for me, and he has no one but himself to blame for that.

  135. Where to start? First of all by deleting LeftCoaster from my blog list. Turkana and the others who have “seen the light” must realize and accept that Donna Brazile has told us that she (and the Party?) no longer need those of us who are: older, not as well-off as they are, gay, Hispanic, Asian, white or whatever. We can hardly go against Donna, now can we Turkana?

    That being said (and since I’m no longer needed) I can feel free to change my affiliation to Indie, and vote for McCain, write-in Hillary, leave that one blank or just sit my ass at home on that day.

  136. I’ll repeat something that someone else pointed out today or yesterday, somewhere. If a President McCain tries to privatize Social Security, a Democratic congress will push back. But what about when–not if–a President Obama tries to privatize Social Security? What does the Democratic congress do then?

  137. Younger feminists have joined in the Clinton bashing just as enthusiastically as the young men. It frees me. If they aren’t worried about protecting their right to chose, then I don’t have to worry about it either.

    NO! I have at least 20 years of ovulation left (given my family history) and I really don’t want to stay in WA for the rest of my child bearing years. And I know plenty of young feminists that are just as outraged, who support both nominees (though why Obama I have no idea, I blame it on the *ohh ahh* principle.)

    I’ve never held my nose to vote and I never will.

    PS I am not a latte liberal, I’m one of those unimportant people that don’t count anymore and I voted for Nader, though in NY. But again, I don’t hold my nose, though I did vote for the Big Dawg.

  138. Oh, and privatizing social security will completely fu** me over as I’m on disability.

  139. The “new Democratic coalition” doesn’t want us. The fix has been in since 2004.
    Check out rezkowatch.blogspot.com
    Scroll down to Update #1-The Plan

  140. UpstateNY, on May 7th, 2008 at 9:48 pm Said:
    What would he need to do to obtain your vote, were he the nominee?

    It’s too late – words do have consequences, experience and associations do matter.

  141. The problem I face in contemplating a vote for Obama is that I must not pay attention to do it. Perhaps in the GE, he will move away from the messianic aspirations, the one thing that makes me think he is utterly dangerous. Vacuous inexperience I perhaps can live with, perhaps live with, but vacuous inexperience crowned by delusions of grandeur is exactly what has made me despise George W. Bush.

  142. I will not vote for Barack Obama in November. I won’t vote for John McCain in November either. I am going to cast my PRESENT vote, as they say in Chicago. And, I am completely, utterly impervious to any unity arguments about how bad it will be if McCain wins because Dems don’t “support” Obama.

    Even if Hillary Clinton campaigns for Obama in the fall–I will not vote for him.

    Why?

    Florida and Michigan. That’s why. I won’t collude in the electoral fraud that has been perpetrated by the Democratic Party leadership and the DNC in this primary. That they would allow the sanction to occur in the first place is the crime–seating Florida and Michigan delegates AFTER the nominee is chosen by superdelegates is disenfranchisement. Not counting those votes as part of the popular vote count is not one iota of difference from stopping the counting of votes in 2000 to install G.W. Bush.

    It’s the Democratic Party, Turkana. They lost me. I have no party loyalty any more, so I can’t be persuaded to vote for Obama to save the Democratic Party’s ass in November. I just couldn’t give a damn anymore about the Democratic Party. I was a fierce partisan loyalist; now, not so much.

    So, I feel your pain, Turkana. But, it’s wasted on me. I have grown thick skin over the brutal primary season, and I’m incapable of caring anymore.

  143. You can count me out on supporting Obama.
    I know that there were bad things done by supporters on both sides, both Clinton’s and Obama’s, but overwhelmingly, the majority of the meaness and hate that came out of this campaign was from Obama’s camp. That, in a very large part, includes the cable news media. There’s no use now in denying that their hatred toward Hillary was borne out of their blatant support for Obama.
    Should I blame Obama for the behavior of his supporters? Well, someone didn’t want me to bring up religion anymore, but here’s one more. We used to sing a little song in youth fellowship that went like this, “They’ll know we are Christians by our love, by our love. Yes, they’ll know we are Christians by our love.” Jesus inspired his people to show love. What has Obama inspired? Sexism, racism (because racism against white people is still racism), larceny and vandalism of the opponents’ signs (this happened with frequency where I live), hate-filled talk against the opponent and her supporters etc. etc. I could go on, but this post is getting too long. You get the picture.
    I’m already mentally preparing myself to vote for John McCain. In fact, I’m thinking of changing my voter registration to Independent.

  144. If I trusted her to be president, I can trust her to determine under what conditions Obama would be an OK nominee, and I can trust her to have those back-room discussions with him in a way that gets us at least some of the important outcomes that Frenchdoc mentioned above. (Let’s face it, I don’t 100% believe those outcomes would be secure if Clinton were elected!)

  145. […] Posts Indiana and North Carolina Primary Cocktail PartyYinz got it backwardsNuclear nightmare scenario: Guam determines nomineeAn Invitation to Democrats in ExileDo You Believe […]

  146. Obama’s Money Cartel: How Barack Obama Fronted for the Most Vicious Predators on Wall Street

    Wednesday, 07 May 2008
    by Pam Martens

    The candidate that claims to be the only presidential contender who doesn’t take money from lobbyists is in fact the biggest recipient of lobby-related contributions. Barack Obama rakes in millions from law firms serving the interests of Wall Street, including the financial institutions that gave us the subprime lending crisis. Lawyers that work for firms that earn hundreds of millions of dollars for lobbying may technically not be lobbyists, but they share in their colleagues’ earnings as influencers of Congress – a legal loophole that allows Obama to claim his hands are clean of lobby loot. “The top contributors to the Obama campaign are the very Wall Street firms whose shady mortgage lenders buried the elderly and the poor and minority under predatory loans.”

    http://www.blackagendareport.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=613&Itemid=1

  147. I love how yet again women are expected to be “gracious in defeat” while it’s perfectly acceptable for the blogger boyz to be utterly graceless. Once again we’re expected to eat shit and pretend that it’s pie. Fuck that noise. I’m really tired of this particular bit of sexist bullshit.

  148. What a crock.

    Why not come out and say, “Shut up, bitch.”

    That’s just what they mean.

  149. Lets go for the mass de-registration idea – let’s have a date or date range…so they will get the message.

    sarah, I’m personally planning to wait until the very day that Clinton concedes (if she does, of course). I figure that will get the message across.

  150. From: Donna Brazile @brazileassociates.com>

    Subject: RE: Switching to Republican Party – I’m a Hillary supporter

    Date: May 7, 2008 7:48 PM

    Honestly, this is the 9th email today, so I believe you’re ready to not only destroy Roe versus Wade, voting rights, civil liberties and civil rights.
    Perhaps adding trillions more to the deficits through non stop tax cuts to the wealthy and 100 more years in Iraq.

    Yes, please join Rush and McCain asap. The train has left. Catch it.

    Please don’t send these emails to working people like myself. Notice you sent it to my campus address. I am a working class person. Can you find someone who drinks latte?

    Message to the base: stay home.

    The above letter from D. Brazile confirms and fortifies the same message being sent out by BO “fans”. They have stayed on message since the beginning. we just didn’t know the depth of it. We just did not think Dem party “leaders” could be so stupid, borderline insane. Very few seem to be cognizant of the first rule of a campaign – appeal to a vast base. These people are egocentric egregious beings – how else do you explain fostering a candidate whose most wonderous quote starts as “we are the ones we have been waiting for” – lol, if that was not a red flag then the lack of experience, lack of any record of accomplishment should have keyed some need for a little more detail before becoming a “fan”. Call me crazy, I like a candidate who stands for issues, has a plan and a record. A fill in the blanks candidate is just that – blank, The office of POTUS is not an internship.

    The BO “fans” are displaying the attitude generated from the top down. And, it was there from the very beginning. The Turk diary is laughable as is D. Brazile’s haughty dismissal of 60% of the Dem voter base. Who would have thought they could be so hm, ah, ah, stupid. Who is their base now?

    Vote for BO? Not a chance. Support a party that assasinates its very own best and brightest? Now that’s audacity beyond measure.

  151. I don’t even get to vote for the candidate to world overlord, let alone the real thing, but I just don’t get it. The first question your overlords asked was “Clinton or Obama”. Let’s assume the majority answer was “Obama” — not done yet by any means. So the question would now be “Obama of McCain”. If you think holding out is gonna

  152. I don’t even get to vote for the candidate to world overlord, let alone the real thing, but I just don’t get it. The first question your overlords asked was “Clinton or Obama”. Let’s assume the majority answer was “Obama” — not done yet by any means. So the question would now be “Obama of McCain”. If you think holding out is gonna sway the real decision makers, I think you’re fooling yourself. If that’s the way you can keep alive dreams that what you want will come to pass, I think you’re just working for the Clampdown. Work for better choices, but don’t lose sight of the hand you’re being dealt with.

  153. I have never understood why everyone beats up on Hillary because Bill messed around — more than once.When I was young I was very unsophisticated about the frequency with which this occurs and, also, about the fact that many women get through it more than one time and just continue in their marriage. I have even heard one woman tell about a woman calling her to reveal the infidelity, to which she replied, “oh this isn’t the first time and I doubt it will be the last, but if you think I am just going to step aside and let you have him, you have another think coming! You better go find your own man, because mine keeps coming back to me to forgive him and I do! I like my home, my kids and the way he supports us, so you are wasting your time with my husband!” I was utterly shocked, but after a few years of thinking about it, I have wondered if more of us reacted in that way, perhaps other women would stop thinking our husbands were to desireable. I don’t have a clue why Hillary held on to Bill, but I even admire that about her. There is more than one way of dealing with a personal situation and the only person who should decide which way is best is the person most involved.

  154. i cannot vote republican, never have, never will. but right now, were obama the nominee, i doubt i would be able to vote for him. maybe if hillary was on the ticket, i dont know, i might be sitting this one out

  155. kiki and others — *if* Obama is the nominee, I will almost certainly vote Green if their candidate is Cynthia McKinney; not sure where I’ll vote if it’s Nader, as I’m still mad about 2000. (all I know about McKinney is she wanted to impeach Bush and she hit some overzealously searching security guard in the head with her cell phone–both these things very much incline me to like her)

    But . . . Hillary is still in this. I posted a thumbnail sketch of why I think she will still win the popular vote in comment threads at both Tom Watson and The Left Coaster earlier today.

    And high to Riverdaughter–thanks for such a great blog! I’ve been reading you since my signif other found this place months ago even though I haven’t posted before now, and am too tired to say anything thoughtful. But you and Tennessee Guerilla Women in particular have helped keep me energized and hopeful this evening.

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