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      A few months ago I read a couple of books by the Singaporean intellectual Kishore Mahbubani. In “Has China Already Won he discusses Taiwan. The one exceptional trigger for a war involving China is Taiwan. Most of the time, the Chinese leaders have a lot of policy flexibility. There are no strong domestic lobbies to worry about. But the one issue where the Ch […]
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Dear SD’s, here’s the only viable solution:

1.) Propose a joint ticket with Clinton on top, Obama as VP. She’s earned the top spot by capturing all of the big states and swing states. He is much more acceptable as a VP than she is. She is more qualified and experienced. You can’t afford to lose her supporters no matter how much you try to talk yourselves out of it, The AA community will come around because Barry can get experience in the executive branch, which he desperately needs, and run as her successor in 2016. They just want to see him get there. Why not do it in stages?
2.) Get the Rules and bylaws committee to waive the penalty on FL and MI so that Clinton gets the delegates she needs. You’re going to have to do this anyway. Ok, have Obama do this at a sunlit tableau surrounded by grateful Floridians and Wolverines. Just get on with it already.
3.) Negotiate the deal before the end of the primary season and before anyone hits the magic number, which is illegitimate without Florida and Michigan. If you wait until someone hits it, the possibility of getting the ticket you need starts to approach a limit of minus infinity.
4.) Fire Howard Dean and Donna Brazile ASAP.

I hate the idea of a unity ticket but that’s the only way I will vote for Obama this year- is if he is VP. Think about it because there are some majorly pissed off members of the “old coalition” out there who you are going to lose shortly.

I’m bumping this up from the comments. I know this person is a REAL Republican and this is what she has to say about the proposal above:

Riverdaughter – you know I’m the Republican lurker here. I was just talking to the hubby last night about what a debacle the primary has been with Michigan and Florida. To ignore people’s votes is just wrong. To say “Florida can’t have it’s primary before …” is just wrong. The election needs to be controlled by the will of the people, not the DNC chairman (and that’s what it will come down to). Hillary deserves top billing on the Democratic Ticket and it needs to be done soon. People like me will then have time to compare McCain and Clinton on the issues and make their objective opinion.

There you go. It’s one but I’ll betcha there are others.

One more thing: The way the Democrats have treated the “old coalition” in the past five months has made me realize that I no longer identify with the people who have seized the levers of power of the party. As of today, I am re-registering from Democrat to “unaffiliated” in NJ. If anyone in NJ wants to join me, here is the link.

80 Responses

  1. When you say “fire” Donna Brazilenut and Howard the Duck, will that invove tying them to a pole and a bonfire?

  2. I would vote for Clinton/Obama , but not the other way . I am still convinced that he is not ready to be president. After the unbelievable Indiana vote, I guess it is inevitable that she will have to give him the vp in exchange for the nomination.

  3. @ myiq2xu: Always a stickler for detail, thank you for bringing this up. I appoint you head of the roast committee.

    RD: My biggest fear is whether the remaining SDs will start running towards BO. I hope they take the time to realize that this race is not over and much hangs in the balance. I think the next few hours, days, will tell the story on the SDs.

  4. Todd Beeton says, at best, it’ll be Obama/Clinton which just won’t work GE-wise. As a blank slate, Obama can’t take the inevitable hits that are coming his way–with a vengeance (Rezko, Ayers, race card, etc.).

  5. I would just barely be able to support Clinton/Obama – objectively he’s not really qualified but historically (witness Dan Quayle, Sprio Agnew) I guess it doesn’t really matter.

  6. Without a Dem in the White House, McCain gets to pick the Supreme Court nominees of which there will be a few.

    We are doomed. I do not believe that Obama supporters will accept anything but Obama as the nominee for president.

  7. Riverdaughter – you know I’m the Republican lurker here. I was just talking to the hubby last night about what a debacle the primary has been with Michigan and Florida. To ignore people’s votes is just wrong. To say “Florida can’t have it’s primary before …” is just wrong. The election needs to be controlled by the will of the people, not the DNC chairman (and that’s what it will come down to). Hillary deserves top billing on the Democratic Ticket and it needs to be done soon. People like me will then have time to compare McCain and Clinton on the issues and make their objective opinion.

  8. Elixir: If the SD’s don’t realize they have a race problem on their hands by now and that Republicans screwed with Indiana, then they are dumber than I thought. They should get together and work out a deal. The ONLY viable option is Clinton on top.
    I guess it all depends on whether they want to win in November or not. If they flock to Obama, that’s it. Game over. The Old Coalition will flock to McCain.

  9. Jerseygirl5555: Did you do something with your hair lately? You’re looking so good these days. You’re one of the few Republicans around here who seems to be able to see reason.

  10. RD: What do you think about a proposed Obama/Clinton ticket? As I said earlier, I can’t see it working but they probably think it’ll appease the “post-sexual” women’s studies set and the “Archie Bunkers.”

  11. Davidson: If she were offered the VP position, I would have no respect for her if she took it. It is time we started to elect our candidates based on qualifications not media image.

  12. Riverdaughter, I agree that there can be no question it is apparent to superdelegates the danger the party is in come November with Obama at the helm.

    But I think what is going trump that, however, is that each SD, as an individual, must by now be feeling far too personally and professionally intimidated by a crushing steamroller, albeit one driven by an undemocratic, disproportionately powerful party subset. No one wants to bring the kind of career-killing attacks on oneself that crossing the Obama campaign inevitably brings. Look what they did to Mickey Kantor, Tavis Smiley, etc., etc.

  13. AMEN to all three items. Yep, I won’t vote for him unless he’s on her ticket as VP. Otherwise, nada.

  14. RD: Same here, but I sadly think her women voters will largely accept it since many are conditioned to accept second-tier status no matter how absurdly insulting. If she took the VP post, she would only be doing it for the sake of the party and the country; she really would do anything…for us. But I still don’t see them winning: the race would be Obama vs. McCain not Obama/Clinton vs. McCain.

  15. What’s with all the gloom and doom? So Clinton lost NC. Not exactly a surprise considering that >30% of the voters were AA and >90% of them voted for Obama. She won IN after trailing in that state by a huge margin. Sure, she didn’t win IN by as much as I would’ve liked or as much as the polls predicted but again, that’s because they underestimated Obama’s AA support. >90% of AAs voted for him in IN. These results aren’t particularly surprising and they shouldn’t be disappointing. The fact that Hillary won IN is huge and she’s going to keep going all the way to the finish line. So chin up and let’s focus our attention on WV.

  16. Riverdaughter – Letting my hair down (ha ha ha) and grow out a bit – but I’ve got to redo the highlights next week – I had to make the appt a week ago. Can I see reason – I’m not sure about that – but I really enjoy this. Maybe I’ll start a Moderate Republican Blog in the future (yes, there are some of us out there). Are there other Republicans in here???

  17. MH: I know she’s going to kick ass in WV and KY but the party is going to try to squash her anyway. The only viable option at this point is a joint ticket. The only way a joint ticket will win is if Hillary is on top. This is not a difficult thing to understand. The SD’s just have to have the courage to force them into it.

  18. Sorry, I just wanted to add that these last two contests illustrate precisely why Obama isn’t a viable GE candidate and hopefully SDs will take that into account. His support among whites and working class voters are eroding. AAs, the youth vote, and latte liberals isn’t a winning coalition for November. There simply aren’t enough of them.

  19. I just took a cruise to other like minded blogs and it is quite apparent that our sentiments are being echoed throughout. The biggest affront is attributed to Donna B since she so cavalierly blew off the our demographic with such flourish. Defections are being sounded. Eyebrows are raised over an inexperienced candidate whose qualifications do not match the job description. Many are predicting “suicide” for the Democratic Party. Now put these issues into the hands of the GOP for the general and we have disaster riding on this nomination. People are steaming. They are voicing their objections to being classified as low rent, uneducated, out of touch, and racist. This is what Donna and Howard have created. Good luck. We on this blog are not alone.

  20. Jg5555: If she gets the nomination, we’ll go see her at a rally near here and you will be won over. I just know it.

  21. Bill – it’s not a matter of entitlement – it’s a matter that votes from 2 large states are being ignored. The Republicans are loving watching the Democrats self-destruct.

  22. jerseygirl5555: Are there other Republicans in here???

    Just wait a bit longer.

    I actually wish we had a healthy two-party system. My state is so dominated by Dems that the GOP only puts up cranks and weirdos as challengers.

  23. Son of Bill: She DOES deserve it. Any other candidate would have won by now with the states she racked up by super Tuesday. I don’t trust the caucuses. And I think she should have gotten her FL and MI delegates a long time ago. That would have shattered Obama’s inevitable meme.
    Practically speaking, there is no way that Obama will win in November without her voters and he and Donna and Dean have made it pretty clear that they don’t think they need us or they can take us for granted. We’ve heard it over and over again. I have never seen a candidate self-destruct so badly with the half of the party that he actually needs to win. He cannot win. SHE can and there are plenty of good reasons to make her the top of the ticket.

  24. BO reminds me of every arrogant, sexist sh*thead that I’ve had the displeasure of encountering over my 60 years on this earth -remember his sneering at HRC that she was “likable enough”; his shunning her outstretched hand at the State of the Union; and the classic passive-aggressive scratching one’s check with one’s middle finger as he did the day after he lost PA and then laughing smugly?

    It isn’t just me; BO’s sexist behavior and comments has revived lots of similarly unpleasant repressed memories among my female friends as well and also rendered them incapable of voting for him if he becomes the nominee.

    I agree with Riverdaughter that the only way I could vote for BO is if he is in the second spot on a ballot behind HRC. Otherwise, for the first time in my life since I was able to vote, I will not vote for president. I could not vote for McCain and even if I believe that Obama wouldn’t be as bad as McCain, assuming he brought the right people into his administration, my distaste for him is now visceral.

    I was delighted at the beginning of this primary season that I might have the exquisite dilemma of voting for the first woman or black person for president. I never dreamed that would happen in my lifetime. But BO has turned out to be just one more arrogant, immature, sexist, opportunistic male politician. Unlike HRC, BO is running not out of a deep commitment to public service but only to further his ambitions – ambitions so deep that he has no problem even using race to once again divide the country. How despicable.

  25. Sorry for so many posts in a row. This’ll be the last one.

    The SDs are going to decide this race. They’re free to change their mind and they’ll use whatever criteria they think is relevant. If there is going to be a joint ticket, based on the DNCs bias, Hillary isn’t going to be on top and I doubt she’d settle for VP (and I doubt that Obama would want her to be his runningmate). However, it’s pointless trying to predict how SDs going to act. We need to focus are efforts on the next few contests, win them big, and make our best argument to the SDs.

  26. hlr – I’m glad I’m not alone. I really wish we had a healthy 2-party system too.

  27. MH: Yes, agreed. We have to focus on the next state. AND we also have to float this meme.

  28. Look, Clinton isn’t going to get the magic number of delegates in the end. Obama will. It stinks, but it stunk for Edwards supporters and all the rest of them at some point, now it’s our turn. Obama is every bad thing that has been said about him on the site and elsewhere, and I’ve had a small part of that enterprise. Clinton should squeeze every last drop of blood from him in exchange for helping him in November, and when he squeals, she should remind him that he smeared her as a racist, and she should squeeze some more. And as for us, I’ve yet to hear about a non-indicted Democrat I wouldn’t vote for over any Republican. (OK, I like Bloomberg. But that ain’t happening.) You win some, you lose some, and you get the best deal you can when you lose. That’s where I am right now, and if Clinton wants to stay in through the last primary I’m all for it, but it’s only to increase her leverage in that inevitable conversation.

    And what of the SD’s, you ask? She just won’t have enough on her side in the end.

  29. Did anyone catch Joe Scarborough and Pat Buchanon on Friday a.m. (I think) discussing how HRC slamdunked her O’Reilly interview? They both agreed that SHE, not BO, can beat McCain. Let’s stay positive — WV and KY look good. Are they next week??

  30. jerseygirl: I wouldn’t go so far as to say I was Republican – but certainly I’m a Reagan-Democrat and a Bush(1)-Democrat.

    Wendy: Thanks for putting into words how I was feeling about BO. I intensely dislike him and I don’t see that changing.

  31. They are urging us to “come together” now, put our differences aside, unite, put all our efforts into defeating McCain. Like the last 5 months didn’t happen. That if we don’t get onboard we are just a bunch of crybabies. Words do matter and we have been slammed. Not that easy to “play nice”.

  32. Any word on HRCs meetings today? I thought I read that they may be w/ SDs.

    Funny. I was talking w/ a fellow HRCs supporter this morning on the train – older, white woman (sounds like me too) – and she wasn’t sure if HRC should take the VP slot or not. I quickly filled her in on how this would be a terrible decision. THEN she mentioned that FL and MI shouldn’t be counted because they weren’t really primaries – eek. When asked what about the 1.+million voters in FL, she said they knew that their votes wouldn’t count when they went to the polls. I asked her if she were in the same situation would she sit at home – her answer, no. Mindboggling sometimes, in’t it? Fortunately, we both agreed that BO and his campaign have some eery similarities to those of our gov., Deval Patrick.

  33. @Davidson: excellent point, female supporters have been conditioned to take second place and will suck it up and vote for Obama/Clinton – that’s what BOs campaign is thinking.

  34. The SDs won’t give it to Clinton. Even though she is more electable, has actually won in the GE swing states (does anyone really think NC will go blue this fall?), and is winning against McCain in head to head polls, Obama will be the nominee. His campaign has worked really hard to push the meme among his supporters that if Clinton is given the nomination based on SDs/electability than the Clinton camp has, in reality “stolen” the nomination. It’s not true, but Obama supporters believe it with a religious fervor. Dean and Brazille will see to it that SDs fall in line behind Obama and the “will of the people.”

    In polls, Clinton is stronger than Obama who is running dead even with McCain. I don’t see Obama overcoming his deficit with white voters. I can hope because with the SCOTUS, the war, torture etc., I feel like there is too much at stake not to elect a democrat, but urgh. I just don’t see it happening and I’m not sure that I trust him to do the right thing even if he makes it to the Oval Office.

  35. noteable absence: Obama put out a memo last night asking for money. The DNC cut a deal with his campaign last week for joint fundraising. The DNC and DFA call me *daily* asking me for money. They are in a major world of hurt right now. They are in no condition to ask superdelegates for any concessions. The arm twisting could very easily go the other way. Agree to the viable option and the money stream will flow again. Otherwise, Dems will fund their candidates locally and the DNC gets nothing. Good luck paying off the party bills in Denver.

  36. I for one will not forget or forgive the way Hillary has been treated. If she is not the nominee I will vote McCain – four years is a speed bump on the road I am willing to deal with. I can’t stand Obama or his supporters. Even if it were possible ,a Clinton/Obama or Obama/Clinton ticket turns my stomach. The Media Obama lovefest is what has helped him get to where he is now . I am past anger. Make no mistake most Clinton supporters I know promise to vote McCain if choices are Obama or McCain

  37. Son of Bill: No one here is going to campaign for McCain. Nah-gah-happen. But our votes have to be earned. Our asses have to be kissed big time. Obama has to personally reach out ot each one of us and apologize for accusing us of being racists, for destroying the Clinton’s characters regarding race, for jumping on the media’s misogynistic bandwagon and for being a major dick to the working class. It is not my problem if I don’t want to vote for him. It is HIS problem to make me like him. And based on his qualifications alone, he is already in an enormous hole with me. So take your little guilt trip somewhere else. It won’t work here.

  38. Elixir,

    This retired military officer (female) will never vote for Obama. If he is given the nomination, I will place the McCain bumper sticker on my car and the McCain yard sign in front of my house. The only way I will not vote for McCain is if he picks a right-wing nutcase for vice-president. Then I will simply not vote for president. Oh yes, I will also change my affiliation from Democrat to Independent.

  39. The results of last night are as usual being misinterpreted and spun by the Clinton-hating media. Obama gets over 90% of the AA vote. The AA’s are voting purely on ethnicity, like it or not. He is losing 60% or more of every other non–AA group. He now can’t even win a neighboring state of Indiana, where they obviously tried to cheat for him. His campaign is actually sinking, but the media can’t or won’t see it. I don’t know whether the superdelegates can, but they should. Let’s see him win one other primary from here on out.

    This entire Obama mystique has been a sham, fueled by bogus caucuses, actual cheating,, Republicans crossing over to try to get him nominated, and an overwhelming AA vote based purely on his race. That’s all he’s got. That said, as I was tossing and turning last night, I had the fear that the superdelegates are going to think that the way out of this–the way to hide Obama’s weaknesses and yet get him nominated as they want, is to get him to put Hillary on the ticket as VP. The more I think about it, the more I see that as being their tactic.

  40. Ok, you guys who want to vote for McCain, that’s really not a smart idea. I don’t advocate that at all. Just vote your conscience.

  41. I totally agree, RD. Mario Cuomo suggested it about a month ago. She DOES deserve to be on top. She’s won all the big electoral states, aside BO’s. All the big swing states. And, really, when you include FL and MI, this is simply a dead heat, it basically is without them as well. And, frankly, she’s more qaulified and better prepared. The problem is BO’s backers, his ego and the folks at the DNC who desperately hate the Clintons.

  42. Dear Riverddaughter, Thank you for the work you do here. I wouldn’t like to see Obama on the ticket as VP.
    But I agree with everything else you say. I like you taking the ever-putrid Brazile to task earlier.
    I actually have a question for you. And I will check back later to see if you have an answer. What has happened to Taylor Marsh? i admit I only read her the past six or so weeks–so I dont have a long period of time with which to judge her. However, I thought she was supposed to be pro-Hillary. But in the last few days she feels like she is either a concern troll (even on her own site) or has just dropped all pretence and shifted sides. Today she has a big “oh no” Clinton aides think it’s falling apart” type of crap headline.
    And last night the same tone. Big headline with Obama’s big win first, Hillary’s squeak in Indiana next.
    If she was pro Clinton plenty of headlines would have had journalistic merit and been upbeat to Hillary supporters. She also ran a bit on how she didn’t like Hillary’s tax cut on gas. I am sorry that I gave any space to these stupid lines on your blog..I don’t mean to pass along the crap– but I want your opinion. Has Marsh turned or is she just having a case of the stupids? Can you contact her and ask her to get her head on straight or just advise me that I should let people know she is no longer a reliable source of information?
    Hillary won Indiana. That was our main goal. We did it. The second big story of the day/night is that there is obvious voter fraud going on in Camp Bullshit Obama. We are moving onto two states we have high numbers in: Kentucky and West Virginia. Birds should be singing on our sites or at least buckling down to move ahead into the next states armed with the knowledge that we are fighting the good fight and backint the only viable candidate and that we will in the end win this. Sorry for the long post, but I feel we need to clean house to be as strong a group of supporters as possible. Thanks.

  43. RD: I share your sentiments. BO leading the ticket — under any circumstances — is a no-go for me. As I remarked last evening, it wouldn’t change the dynamic from the perspective of many blue-collar workers who feel his just not qualified, not to mention out of touch. The very idea of him leading the ticket would send them scurrying off to McCain. Hillary, as a VP candidate, wouldn’t change much, if anything. She certainly can’t shield him from all the attacks that are surely headed his way. I’m sure she sees that better than anyone. I don’t see any amount of “for the good of the party” convincing her to risk so much for so little in return.

  44. Son of Bill: You must be really bad at math. AA’s make up 12% of the US population. Half of them are women. In this election year, a black female can’t lose. Also, Obama’s hold on WHITE voters is slipping. He lost that segment to Clinton yesterday in both IN and NC. And in NC, that was just OUR party and unaffiliateds. During the GE, that is going to be magnified. In fact, the more he wins the southern states with high AA populations, that demographic providing his margin of victory, the more he looks like the black candidate and ironically, the less likely he looks to be electable in the fall. Do you see what is happening here? He has generated a racial split starting back in January and it has propagated to the point where he is completely unelectable in the fall. He can’t win the entire coutry with 12% AA’s especially when they are concentrated in Republican states.

  45. I just checked the exit polls and she got 60-40 in Indiana and 61-37 in North Carolina.

    The reason he got so close in Indiana was because the AA turnout was 18% (!!!!) in Indiana, equal to Ohio AA turnout. NC AA turnout was 34%. That is not a winning coalition in November. Kerry only got 42% of the white vote and he couldn’t win and Obama hasn’t broken through into the 40’s with white votes since March.

    Right now, she has to stave off the superdelegates. I hope WV numbers next Tuesday will give them pause. Also, she has to get FL and MI to count. I say she should push for an August 5th MI primary and deal with Florida through a revote or with the current results. No way should MI and FL not have a say in the nomination regardless of what Dean says.

    Lastly, she has to win big in Kentucky, West Virginia, and especially Puerto Rico to catch up. From the polls, it looks like she can do that.

    Sean Oxendine’s scenario said Puerto Rico remains the biggest wild card.


    If they come through for her, she can shock the world.

    Don’t get discouraged everyone!

  46. To clarify , the 60-40 and 61-37 was the white vote in IN and NC.

  47. I have no intentions of voting for McCain. Nor will I vote for Obama….1) I don’t believe he is qualified to be the President. 2) He and his supporters convinced me long ago that I can not ever become one of them.

  48. Hello Angela,

    First, a hearty welcome to you here at The Confluence.

    Second, regarding TM’s “headlines” – I’m not sure if you’re referring to her personal entries or those “newswire” blurbs which appear atop her site (via Yahoo News, AP, Politico, NYT, etc.).

    Taylor remains very realistic and objective in covering Clinton’s candidacy, but never a “concern troll” – not from my vantage point anyway.

  49. Son of Bill Brassky:

    It is meaningless to say that Democrats in FLA and MI should be pointing the fingers at their own state leaders for screwing them over — even if that’s really accurate, which I don’t think it is. The rules didn’t require the DNC to punish FLA and MI at all, and they didn’t authorize the DNC to penalize FLA and MI with complete disenfranchisement. That was the DNC’s need to puff up its own “authority” over the rights of FLA and MI voters.

    Plus, the DNC was unwilling to accept any meaningful re-vote, and Obama aided and abetted them, and he is going to pay a price, not only in FLA and MI, but elsewhere too.

    If there had been re-votes, and Obama won them, I would have accepted that. As it is, Obama isn’t the legitimate nominee unless either FLA and MI count — and then his magic number is 2209, not 2025 — or he wins 2209 without them. And even then, I’ll be pissed.

    I’m one of those who will vote, sadly, for Obama in the fall if he’s the nominee. But don’t condescend to those who don’t think or aren’t sure they can. It won’t help. It will make it worse. The arrogance of many Obama supporters are a big reason why Clinton supporters are so angry right now. When you’re in a hole, stop digging.

  50. The DNC shows no desire to listen to the party faithful. They are all whipped up about the youth vote. And it’s great that young people are coming out, but when I hear youth vote I think McGovern. I feel hopeless today, but my partner and I gave Hillary $1000.

  51. angelasmith: There is only one word that comes to mind with Taylor Marsh- advertisments. She has to make money from her site in order to pay for bandwidth and disk space and administraion. It’s not cheap because she is getting bigger. And advertisers have the power to make you say things you might not otherwise say. We’re not into ad revenue here. It tends to have a smothering effect on free speech. That means bloggers here are unpaid. We do it because it’s necessary.

  52. WacForHillary: I’m with you, I won’t vote for an Obama/Clinton ticket for many reasons. Think on this -if we get BO and during his four years he does poorly (as I anticipate) HRC cannot run against him in 2012 and a repug will get in the WH. If BO does moderately well (as I don’t anticipate) and makes it for the full eight years, HRC will be 65+ yrs and running against a younger repug. Not impossible because at that point she’ll have a stellar resume after 8 yrs of the senate but does she want it?

  53. Also remember that she is leading among self identified Democrats according to the exit polls and Obama’s advantage among Republicans and Independents in the Democratic primary have been reduced to a tie.

  54. Any word on BOs money for the past month? That was always a good club to beat HRC with, BOs ATM skills. Funny how that isn’t thrown around as much now, he must be struggling along w/ the DNC.

    I’ve already switched my voter registration to “independent” – Lou Dobb’s would be proud.

    BTW, did anyone hear Brazile tell Dobbs last night that he’s her Boo and that she was going to squeeze him like “‘range juiiiiz” (heavy accent)?!!! Kind of creepy, I think Lou was a little concerned.

  55. William nails it. Obama doesn’t have a white working class problem. He has an everything but AA problem. He’s losing every other race by about two to one. We shouldn’t let Brazile and Obama make this a black or white thing. Its not.

  56. votes have to be earned. Our asses have to be kissed big time. Obama has to personally reach out ot each one of us and apologize for accusing us of being racists, for destroying the Clinton’s characters regarding race, for jumping on the media’s misogynistic bandwagon and for being a major dick to the working class.

    Not gonna happen. If the past is any indication he’ll throw us under the bus the instant it’s politically risky for him.

  57. Elixir: I heard on the BBC this morning that his campaign sent out a memo last night asking for funds. That would square with the reports from NC that there weren’t that many Obama yard signs. And this is dangerous for the DNC because they planned to do joint fundraising with Obama so if HE isn’t bringing home the bacon, THEY aren’t either. Obama and Clinton must be about even now in cash. Except that Clinton has personal funds to fall back on and Obama doesn’t.

  58. George McGovern, a Hill supporter, is urging her to get out of the race. Her supporters tend to have no stomach. They would rather appease on subset of the Dem base than win. RD gives the clearest path to the WH, but these fools just want us to all follow BO over the ledge. They think they can put some other white person on the ticket with BO and it will work. Not going to happen.

  59. Something that may make a big difference come Nov. If he does manage to secure the nomination then his surrogates will be all over the place on his behalf. Once the electorate gets a daily dose of Clyburn, Brazile, Jackson, Jr., Sharpton, Dyson, et al, screeching at us that those who are against Obama are racists, the whole thing will collapse unto itself. None of us will want to be sitting there having the finger wagging and name calling coming at us for the next 4 years. Fox News will be sure to add their tainted 2 cents and I don’t see too many Hillary supporters backing up that nonsense. And I don’t care how much Hillary insists we all join in lockstep I am not about to bend.

  60. This is going to be a dangerous week for her as the media and some superdelegates will call for her to drop out. WV will come next Tuesday and will highlight his huge problem with blue collar whites.

  61. What I mean is, it’s not race. Working class whites, latinos, catholics, single women, etc., do not support Hill because she is white. It’s her message.

  62. Angela’s right, it wasn’t an ad, TM has an article today (it’s not there now) about how” Clinton aides think it’s falling apart” type of crap headline. That said TM is clearly a huge HRC supporter, I think it may be morning after blahs. She’s already rallying the page with supportive posts.

  63. I love George McGovern, but he’s no expert on winning. I trust Hillary to do the right thing for her family and for us.

  64. Son of Bill Brasky:

    The candidates agreed not to campaign or run ads in FLA and MI (though Obama did run ads in FLA). They did not agree to the complete and permanent disenfranchisement of FLA and MI voters — results that were neither required nor authorized by The ROOLz. They did not agree to let one candidate dictate the terms under which a re-vote would be held. They did not agree that one candidate could claim the nomination based on a lower “magic number” based on the disenfranchisement of FLA and MI. And neither Joe Biden, Barack Obama, or even Hillary Clinton herself, had or have the right to agree to the permanent disenfranchisement of Democratic voters in two critical swing states.

    Please don’t re-write history.

  65. Bill, I’ve never understood why people like you enjoy lecturing people you disagree with. I can only speak for myself, but you are simply driving me further away from voting for Obama in November.

    I won’t vote for McCain, but frankly I’m not convinced Obama would be much better. You see, I actually care about what happens to the generations that come after me. I don’t believe in privatizing social security, and that is what Obama clearly wants. I think we need universal health care, and Obama is against it. Those are big issues for me. Furthermore, I don’t trust Obama to make good appointments to the courts. He had to be talked out of voting for Roberts, for Pete’s sake. He has zero relevant experience and is so far from being qualified to be president, that it’s a joke.

    This guy is no Democrat. He’s a libertarian. And I don’t want a libertarian president. Obama has a huge problem with voters like me–traditional Democrats–and he’s not doing anything to fix the problem. It gets worse with each passing day. So yes, I’ll deal with McCain in the WH if I have to and support Hillary again in 2012. If you don’t like it, lump it.

  66. Obama lost my vote when my (generally sweet) brother, an Obama supporter, came up out of his chair, fists clenched and face red, when I said, “I like Hillary Clinton’s education plan”…

    ya know, me being a big ol’ stupid racist and all…

    This affects me right in my very own family – I will not reward a bully.

  67. Gary McGowan,

    You are so right. We are on the verge of collapse and Obama is the darling of Wall Street and big oil. He is just a tool. He is probably way too narcissistic to realize it though. He’s just another George W. Bush in “sheep’s clothing.”

  68. BB: I have thought (since I first heard it) that the ‘racist’ tag was just the replacement stick for the ‘patriotic’ stick used by Bush. Be charming (to some) and hit the ones who won’t bow down with some charge of not being a good person…

    In the end, somebody will court the latino, blue collar and old white women – and MANY will vote for that person. I truly hope it is Hillary – but I will vote for the one that will serve MY interests. I think I’d rather have and old bird for president than one that would flip me the bird.

  69. Whichever candidate wins will need the supporters of the other candidate to vote for them in November. There really is zero way around this. As RD more or less said this is going to be the nominee’s problem. It is not the voter’s job to like a candidate, it never has been. I saw a Gallup poll the other day (though I cannot find it now) that currently had 1/5th of BO supporters saying they would not vote for HRC in the GE and 1/3 of HRC supporters saying they would not vote for BO in the GE.

    I am a little turned off by some the “his/her coalition” talk. It seems to be really disconnected with reality. The implication that whites, women, or AA are somehow mindlessly favoring their candidate is insulting whenever it is insinuated. This suggestion is repeated ad nausea in the media but really stands out when it is suggested that one demographic group is voting without thinking while others are not part of this phenomenon. Again, this is a two way street. This is a historic primary because it has never been between a black man and a white woman before. The fact that people are more likely to listen to and agree with somebody that looks like them is a well established concept with a whole body of literature behind it. It is not racism and it is not group think. It just feels like an attempt to deny voters their agency in a crude attempt to prop up an argument.

    In my mind it seems like the DNC may be making an error in judgment. The illusion that the democrats are strong is just an illusion created by the breathtaking magnitude of the Republican Party’s failure. To be fair, it is a pretty big epic fail but it is not so big that democrats can go in half cocked and win.

  70. Riverdaughter,

    I respect your right to your opinion, but I cannot agree with your approach. You tell me it’s not a good idea to vote for McCain, but then you tell me to vote my conscience. That’s exactly what I am doing. I want there to be absolutely no chance that Obama and his entourage (Ayers, Rezko, Dailey machine, et al) will reside in the White House. I do not for minute believe that Obama cares about women’s issues, health care for everyone, solving our economic problems, getting us out of Iraq, etc. His stint as a state legislator tells me all I need to know about that (Rezko’s slums in his district and Obama’s mansion). It is obvious to me that he and Michelle care about he and Michelle. As for the issue of Supreme Court judges, why are we presuming he would nominate judges who are competent and fair? If the Democrats cared about who sits on the Court, why did they roll over and play dead for Alito and Roberts?

    Frankly, Obama and his crowd scare me a whole lot more than McCain ever could.

  71. I won’t vote for McCain but I will never, ever vote for Obama. I won’t get it. I was tossed from the party by the creative classes, the people who told me I was too racist, too old, too feminist, too shrill, too unattractive, too un-hip to matter to their iPod politics. Obviously, the Obama fans don’t need or want me, and couldn’t build their “movement” on anything but destroying Hillary Clinton.

    Politics of change, this was not. This was the same old same old, in a slickly marketed package.

    I will not get over it. I don’t even trust Obama to appoint good judges anyway — he will do whatever the oh-so-hip “postpartisan” winds of change and his ego tell him to do — and anyway, the Young and Beautiful don’t need old chicks who carry their lunches to work. So, the Young and Beautiful can fight for the right to choose now.

  72. Crash and burn, Democratic party. You don’t want me, Ms. Brazile? Then I’m out. I will register as an Independent in California. And it’ll snow in Burbank before I cast a vote for Barack Obama.

    The best opportunity to win the White House in decades and they not only pick a candidate who is a sure loser, they fracture the party. They offend women and the middle class. Let’s see how you do in November without us.

    And the Supreme Court, judicial appointment argument doesn’t work with me this time, either. Not this time, not after what we’ve been through. Let the post-feminist-too-cool-for-Hillary babes, like the ones over at Pandagon and Feministing start all over after their reproductive rights have been overturned because they backed a sure loser over a WOMAN who could win. This 49 year old white woman has had enough of the Democratic party. What an out-of-touch parody of itself it has become.

  73. I’m still hopeful that the Super”D”s will do the right thing. They were designed to keep the party from a mcGovern-like debacle. However, if Obama is our candidate, I’m seriously thinking of abstaining. His disdain and lack of respect for Hillary and her supporters (what was he brushing off his shoulders in that speech after his PA loss?) displays an arrogance that is all too familiar in politicians (see the current occupant of the White House.) On Universal Health care, social security and a raft of other issues I honestly feel that Obama is untrustworthy. So, once again the Dems seem determined to drive us over the cliff. As I wrote above, perhaps its time for a Women’s Party and a Lysistrata style boycott.

  74. Looks like Obama has hell of a lot of work to do.

  75. Ryan: I’m not sure what you’re up to but I’m keeping my eye on you.
    When 90% of a racial Demographic chooses one candidate over another that is unprecedented. We were supposed to have moved beyond that. Obama is uniquely unqualified to be president- period. And yet almost the entire AA population is voting for him. I’m sorry, I don’t know what you call that except mindless.

  76. Indeed he does, Ryan. And despite what Donna Brazile thinks, it’s up to Obama, not Hillary, and certainly not her supporters, to suck it up and unite behind Obama. Hillary WILL support him, because she is gracious, and she’s been a Democrat too long to not back the nominee. I probably will too, for reasons of my own.

    But not if Obama and his supporters think they can lecture and hector me into it. I don’t like to be lectured and hectored. He can’t take our votes for granted. He CAN drive us away, though. If he’s really such a “uniter,” then he has to do the hard work of unification. Let’s see if he tries.

  77. BTW, Ryan, I wasn’t suggesting that you personally are lecturing and hectoring.

    Your post above about identity politics and demographics: Hillary’s support has been much more diverse than Obama’s. Everyone talks about her hold on older, lower income women voters, but the fact is that while she pulls a majority of those voters, it’s by no means automatic. Same with Obama’s hold on suburban, well-educated professionals. Plenty of them vote for Clinton.

    Certainly, part of the reason I like Hillary is that I identify with her. Hell, I even went to the same law school as she did. I know what it means to be a woman in a male-dominated profession. I know what it means to deal with the more subtle sexism of the 90s and 00s. But my support for her is not as strong as it is BECAUSE she’s woman.

    The only truly overwhelming demographic seems to be African-American voters favoring Obama. And now it’s hinted, if not explicitly stated, that Obama MUST be the nominee for the Democrats to retain that demographic in the fall. That really troubles me, as it does riverdaughter.

    Obama has to do a lot of work to unify the party. It’s got to start with rejecting the notion that any single demographic can hold the party hostage.

  78. I am not sure why the AA is supposed to count less than the vote of others in securing the nomination.

    Fundamentally Clinton and Obama have very similar policies though I already know that is verbotten here. There are minor differences but they are basically the same on a broad range of issues. Certainly HIllary is more experienced and perhaps more deserving of the position based on that. But you have to win the nomination.

    AA looked upon the historical opportunity in Obama and ultimately voted “for” him as a near bloc. Hillary got a huge margin in white women. When you get to senior white women that is also a bloc “for” her. It’s the fault of neither.

    The fact that 90% of AA voted for Obama does not mean that 90% would not have voted for her in the general. If she had won a few red states or those undemocratic caucuses that’s exactly what would have happened. It did not work out that way.

    Similarly the fact that only 35-40% of whites voted for Obama does not mean that such a low a number will be operative in the GE. If that is true there are a lot of people that would just as soon find out. Most notably the GOP who would love to get AA to stop thier insane devotion to the DEM. Arguably AA have more power with trying to influence or be courted by the GOP than thru blind devotion to the DEMs. But not if you vote 90% for DEMs even with Dukakis.

    The DEM party has a problem with the fear of future AA loyalty. It’s sort of a different dynamic with the female enthusiasm candidate Clinton which is arguably unique to HIllary for at least a GE cycle or two.
    Just as Ms. CLinton said in the post PA rally that moms could tell their daughter “you can be President”, the AA want a party that they can tell their sons and daughters that too. “WHich party is that ? is not the question the party wants asked right now.

    Unfortunately a lot of the reason Obama might not win the general is rooted in the assumption that the white DEM vote won’t come around. I’m not saying that people are racist I’m saying that enough people think “enough other” people are to make that alone a question of electability.

    Obama is a DEM and will be the nominee unless he channels Gary Hart and Donna Rice some time real soon.

    A real problem of AA loyalty in the 21st century is going to be exposed if CLinton gets catapulted over him. If blacks are going to be post affirmative action someday and post racial etc they view the election by delegates as the process and their voices as just as meaningful. If the SDs take that away the party is in trouble and it knows it.

    THis is becuase while Obama may not win the white house, there are plenty of AA in congress that give the DEMS a majority. Many come from all these states that won;t be won by Obama. Mississippi, ALabama, Georgia, South Carolina, etc.

    Blacks became DEMS with the civil rights movement. Almost ALL of them in the south were GOP before that. It’s certainly a misconception that AA/DEM loyalty was forged in the FDR era. AAs certainly helped elect IKE. AA (or at the time the American Negro) was GOP because of Lincoln and Reconstruction. They even won seats in congress in the 1800s. (Obama is only the third AA senator and he’s half white for goodness sake. )

    Anyway, that all changed with the abanadonment by the GOP with the Rutherfraud B. Hayes compromise that ended reconstruction and enforcement of the constitution’s amendments. After that and despite the 13, 14 and 15th amendment, those GOP blacks couldn;t even vote for fear of paying a really big price. 100 years later Kennedy called Republican Martin L. King Sr to help with Jr. being tossed in the pokey. The rest is DEM party history so to speak.

    In my opinion the GOP was silly not to put Colin Powell on the ticket. This would have already ruptured the DEM party. Perhaps Powell was not interested in assuming a position Ms. Ferraro claims she only got because of gender. If so, good for him. The civil rights legacy would have already rewarded the GOP. Because as much as blacks vote DEM they would like to vote legacy and their myriad values just like other “working class” voters.

    This is what he party fears and this is why Obama is a done deal that will sooner than later head toward kumbaya in the hopes of avoiding a McGovern incident in the fall..

    The party fears a AA revolt that would leave the door open for the GOP to steal enough AA to topple two decades of general elections in states like WI, PA, MO, NC, VA, MD,OH.

    The 12% of the population thing is true but 90% of 12% is really 10 NET points in general elections. So when you see a poll like Kerry 49, Bush 49 10 points of Kerry is AA. So 12% population is much more of his vote in actual effect. Look at county by county results to see this is indeed the case. Ironically Obama has proven what 90% of a bloc does. He only had to split the white vote along age to win. In other words negate the “net”. He did it.

    10 net points from AAs moves nearly every close “big” blue state.

    WI (90% milwuakee blacks)
    PA (90% Philly blacks)
    OH (90% cleveland blacks) etc.
    MI (90% detroit blacks)

    Hillary backer Ed Rendell proved this maxim in PA.

    I have had many policy type meetings with AA politicos and community types. What is interesting to me is that AA vote bloc is really a civil rights legacy. Right or wrong a SD reversal is viewed as spitting in the face of that legacy which is THE glue of AA support.. That is to say, if AA voted their views on guns, gay marriage, tax cuts, school choice, school prayer, abortion, military strength, immigration etc. about 35% would already be GOP. 10 net points becomes only 3 net points.

    Now women and many Clinton backers are faced with the same kind of disappointment and choice. Will they be DEMS or Hillary supporters. I dunno?

    If they are DEMS they likely will do what Obama support would have done if Hillary won. If they are Hillary backers they are perhaps only transient DEMS. AAs are not transient DEMS and that is the dilemma for the SD exercise. IT’s less about 2008 than 2010, 12, 14, 16 and 18…..

    DEM Women vote on issues consistent with Clinotn’s and Obama’s views not McCains. The Obama is a fake DEM, manchusrian libertarian, closet GOP talk is absolutely lost on me. But certainly there is plenty of pent up anti-Obamabot sentiment to go around.

    If women leave the party because they view the failure of the process to come along and accept a woman, i understand that too. The woman hating of Hillary is a bit much to take. If that plays out Obama will lose in November.

    Now in my view, it would make more sense if that woman actually had more votes and delegates. Even counting FL Hillary is behind. YOu can;t even discuss MI with credibility as a Hillary victory to a SD..

    Similary though if white DEMS in general won;t back the DEM, Obama is toast of McGovern cloth. The reality is we are going to find out and have decisions to make.

    This year is tragic in my view for these divides that are now exposed. In a race that should have been a historical positive experience I can;t remember feeling so bummed about the DEM nomination process. It will take some serious work for Obama to actually win. On the other hand it would probabaly take more work for DEMS to ever win again if Obama is not the nominee.

    THat’s the real problem.

    it’s the NET math. 11 net points or 3 net points.

    The DEM and The GOP split the nation. They do not split AAs. So while say 70% can be white, 50% of 70% is zero net points. Its actaully the way proportional has worked in big states to a large degree and the reason people say we won;t win certain states. It hard to move the needle with a split down the middle on the most populist segment.

    Sorta strange but real. 75% of a medium caucus is worth more “net” than 53% of a big state. Maybe that should change but its not changing this year.

    It’s not the % of the population its the NET of the difference in party that matters. HIspanics while more population give a much much smaller net for example.

    The process is winding down and though its been a bummer in many ways, I think the glass ceiling for women and minorites has taken a big hit. Maybe it was the wrong ceiling but it will have turned outto be progress. We will see this progress in future nominating contests where the “content of the character” will matter more.

    For that I’m not bummed and celebrate the legacy of both movements and the pride of being a democrat.

    Dem ’08

    RD :bottonless I hope. 😉

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  80. Forget Obama as VP! He would drag her down because he would still be a lighting rod with all his Ayers-Wright baggage.

    I really would be hard pressed to vote if he were on the ticket…

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