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Nuclear nightmare scenario: Guam determines nominee

It could happen.

The votes were close in IN and not so close in NC. But we all know why this is. Indiana was an open primary. We don’t yet know how many crossover votes there were to make havoc. Plus, Obama *should* have had a major geographical advantage and Chicago media market spillover. It *should* have been a blow out for him in Indiana as well. It doesn’t look like his urban-youth-DINK-Republican crossover vote was enough though. Most of those Republican votes will not be staying with us for the general, of course. He won urban areas where African-American votes are highest. He did the same in NC where he won the middle of the state where 2/3 of the population lives. And 35% of the state is African-American.

I think what we’re seeing here is a real racial divide. It was engineered, deliberately, by Obama’s campaign in order to separate African Americans from the Clintons. It has worked spectacularly well. Obama consistently wins urban and southern AA voters, by lopsided margins. It didn’t have to be this way. There was no reason for the African-American community to spurn Clinton. But in this America, in 2008, color is everything. It seems like the civil rights movement of the 60’s was just a dream. As long as you are the right color, you’re golden. Color masks a multitude of deficiencies- experience, knowledge base, earned coalitions, even interest. Obama has not reached out to the working class, to women, to the elderly, the loyal base of the Democratic party. But he has managed to exacerbate the fault line in the party when it comes to race. There’s no doubt about that now.

Winning NC does not make me like him more nor do I have an elevated desire to vote for him. Let me dispel the notion that he and his supporters have about me voting for him in the fall: unless Florida and Michigan are seated and have an impact on the nomination, I will not consider the nomination legitimate. That doesn’t mean I’ll vote for John McCain. It just means that I don’t know what I’ll do when I stand in front of that button. And don’t hang this on Hillary. If it comes to that, I’m sure she would do her best to GOTV. It has nothing to do with her. It has to do with how deeply offended I am by how Obama has split my party on racial lines and pitted race against their regular party members, as if there was a real split there to begin with. As if I were the enemy. He has pitted Dem against Dem. I am insulted that Howard Dean and Donna Brazile have put their thumbs on the scales for Obama instead of encouraging him to agree to revotes in FL and MI. The thought of voting for him under these circumstances fills me with revulsion. And there’s no amount of cheerleading that Hillary can do to make me change my mind. It’s not her. It’s him.

A win is a win and we will gladly take it and whip his butt in WV and KY and maybe even Oregon. But don’t expect me to support the guy who won with Guam at the expense of Florida and Michigan. I don’t care how tropical it is.

166 Responses

  1. I want an answer from the MessNBC guys:

    If the campaign is over and Obama has this wrapped up today (again), why doesn’t he go home and eat his waflles?

  2. You echo what I said to the DNC this morning when I called…
    Check it out….

    “Call the DNC TOLL-FREE–They Are Taking Comments…Here’s What I Told Them…”


    I’m so glad that Hillary talked about counting the votes in FL and MI….this, also, is critical FOR ME. Without counting those votes, I don’t really don’t feel like ENABLING this party or the increasingly unappealing Obama in the fall.

    I told them a lot more…and the 800 number to the DNC is in the post as well…

  3. I totally agree, riverdaughter.

  4. I don’t understand why BO is “supposed to” win SD and MT… college kids? won’t they all be out on summer vacation?

  5. Same here. There is no way in hell I will ever vote for Obama. And I’m not going to vote for John Kerry in November either. Hopefully Ted Kennedy will retire after betting on the wrong horse this year.

  6. OldCoastie,

    He will win SD and MT because they are Republican states. Obama wants to privatize social security and cut other social programs. He opposes universal health care. He’s wobbly on abortion. That’s why.

  7. OldCastle:

    I think MT will go for HRC and in SD, BO is relying on Tom Daschle.

  8. riverdaughter has again wrapped our combined thoughts into one articulate and reasoned blog. Our sentiments are thoughtfully expressed through her artistry. Here’s to you rd and all your fellow posters!

  9. this whole situation just makes me so unhappy. we’ve had seven loooong years with someone untested, untried, who was supposed to learn on the job. but didn’t. it doesn’t work. there are many jobs you can learn by doing, but the presidency just isn’t one of them. people die unnecessarily and the country goes downhill when the president doesn’t have a clue. HAVE WE NOT LEARNED THAT? why would we do that again?

    I don’t hate Obama. I have extremely negative feelings towards some of his supporters, some of them personal friends. but I don’t know him and don’t want to call him a bad person. I just don’t think a newbie is the one to undo the damage done by a newbie. what are people thinking? in a normal election, he’d be a crapshoot, because we know so little about him beyond the platitudes. but this isn’t a normal election year. we have had an administration that has seriously damaged our country and its standing in the world. we don’t need good feelings and smiley faces – we need repair. serious repair. hope and change are great ideas, I’m not discounting that. in another situation, I could go for them. but right now we are in a serious predicament and need experience and fortitude. those concepts aren’t nearly as exciting or sexy. they’re just necessary.

  10. To RD, cheers!

  11. “As long as you are the right color, you’re golden. Color masks a multitude of deficiencies- experience, knowledge base, earned coalitions, even interest.”

    I don’t understand you, Riverdaughter. Don’t you see that this is the logic the Democratic Party has embraced for the last 30 years, with race-based affirmative action?

    Now you see the fruits of it and you are shocked? Why?

  12. I hate to say this, but Lambert may be right. He posted this link on the other thread.


    If the Lake County vote is as overwhelming as the Mayor of Gary claims, Obama could actually win Indiana. Kerry got 188,000 votes in 2004 in Lake County. I feel sick.

  13. Well, I feel the same way as RD, I have to admit. The nomination is legitimate if and only if FL and MI have an impact, and if and only if the TX caucus votes are legitimate, and there seem to be affidavits that show they aren’t. And don’t piss on me with the policy and tell me it’s raining with the Unity schtick. That pony won’t drag.

  14. I echo you, but here is why—

    Axelrod and his cheating target-marketing in the web

    Twice witnessing Obama’s camp electioneering

    It’s not about the candidates race to me, but I’d need a Colin Powell over an Obama who hasn’t even done his job in the Senate. As far as I am concerned he has no experience, period.

    He let Axelrod split the Democratic Party, and he created a poisonous atmosphere in this whole election — his wife, his pastor, his propaganda, his lies.

    If Hillary for some reason doesn’t make it, I will go Repub. I won’t waste my vote by not voting. One year I voted for Nader, and Gore didn’t get in. I won’t do that again. I can’t stand Obama. And right now, all I can say is, I hope the Republicans make absolute mincemeat out of him. I hope they uncover every lie he has ever done. I hope they explore all his unsavory ties, like the Ayers one, or the Rezko one.

    If he wins, I will leave my Party, because from what I have seen, it is no longer the Democratic Party.

    He cheats. That’s proven, today. He allowed electioneering at a place called Crooked Creek Indiana. Isn’t that appropriate.

    The press needs to really be straight about what he is getting away with, RD. It’s disgusting. I have never felt this way before, but it is the toll of the last eight years and hoping for a Dem. When it was Hillary it made me so happy, because I already know her, and her brand of politics. The world was great during the Clinton years. No war, a better economy, a country not in a tailspin.

    Compared to the service that Hillary and McCain have both done for this country, Obama is nothing.

    Thanks for letting me get that off my chest, Geez.
    he cheated, and since what happened in Florida 4 years ago with the chits or the cheating…a cheater? No thanks. If it gets worse here? Expat. I’ll go live overseas, I swear. Husband or no. That is how I feel.

  15. Another election night proves what I have written too many times to count – demography is political destiny. As Jeralyn’s post below demonstrates, Donna Brazile and many Obama supporters (see Chris Bowers for instance) think Democrats can win in November without white working class voters. I believe they are wrong.

    Barack Obama’s “big night” was not fueled by solving this electability problem. He lost whites in North Carolina by 61-37. He lost whites in Indiana by 60-40. He won African Americans 91-7 in North Carolina. He won African Americans in Indiana by 92-8.

    Obama won North Carolina because African Americans were 33% of the vote. Obama kept it close in Indiana because African Americans were 15% of the vote. In terms of the electability problems Obama is facing, nothing changed tonight. And West Virginia next week will confirm that.

    And what Bagala said kind of reinforces that point:

    BEGALA: We cannot win with egg heads.

    Let me finish my point. We cannot win with egg heads and African-Americans. OK, that is the Dukakis Coalition, which carried ten states and gave us four years of the first George Bush.

    President Clinton — reached across to get a whole lot of

    Republicans and Independents to come. I think Senator Obama and Senator Clinton both have that capacity. They both have a unique ability — well it’s not unique if they both have it. They both have a remarkable ability to reach out to those working-class white folks and Latinos.

    Senator Clinton has proven it; Barack has not yet, but he can. And I certainly hope he is not shutting the door on expanding the party.

    For those who keep calling working class whites “racists” because they don’t fall for Obama, let me remind you that Al Gore lost that group by 17% and Kerry lost them by 23%. I challenge anybody out there to get any whiter than those 2.

  16. Did anyone else watch Hillary’s speech? Did she seem sad, or is it just me? I almost thought she was going to concede the nomination the way she was thanking everyone. She just didn’t have her usual vim and vigor, although she looked beautiful. I can’t stand it if Obama is nominated. I will really leave the party then. This whole campaign has challenged all my most basic beliefs.

  17. Jsilverheels: I’m not shocked at all and I fully expect the Republicans to rake him over the coals as the Affirmative Action candidate. And they wuld be right, for all of he wrong reasons.
    But that is the nature of parties. There are always a number of zealots and idealists who will bush a concept past its viability.

  18. I don’t know what happens now. I’m one of those creative-class wine and latte people who should be voting for Obama.. many of my friends did.. and I’m miserable about what becomes of the Democratic party if my generation is the new base of the party, because they’re socially extremely liberal which is cool with me, but from all indications could give a damn about whether or not we fight for universal health care, equal opportunity, economic opportunities for others besides themselves.

    we’ve had seven loooong years with someone untested, untried, who was supposed to learn on the job. but didn’t. it doesn’t work.
    No. I honestly don’t think he can run the country. I do worry about security issues and what happens with foreign policy. I just don’t think he has the experience, and what’s worse, he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know..

  19. bostonboomer, this smells to high heaven. Gary is reporting 0% of the vote right now.

  20. d g,

    It won’t matter if Obama is the nominee. McCain will be running the country, and Obama will be back in the Senate and probably trying to figure out a different career that doesn’t involve so much work.

  21. Gavche,

    It smells all right. And I hope Hillary is going to look into it.

  22. rd: “I think what we’re seeing here is a real racial divide. It was engineered, deliberately, by Obama’s campaign in order to separate African Americans from the Clintons.”

    And THAT is what pisses me off the most about Barry. What he has done is shameful, destructive and completely unforgivable. He is willing to cause that malicious harm to good and decent Democrats in order to win, and then expects my blessing and my vote? Hell will freeze over first.

    He is corrupt to his very core. And should he steal the nom, it will be wholly tainted. He is no GD messiah; he’s a shyster of the first degree.

  23. According to the NYT map, only 13% of the vote in IN is out. I’m no good at math. Can anyone figure out if that could really change things?

  24. my sense is that a lot of democrats will be leaving the party. as I sort of tried to express on another thread, I haven’t felt this disillusioned since I campaigned for Gene McCarthy way back when. I gave them another chance then. but if the party doesn’t even want to acknowledge us, why should we support them? third party anyone? this could be the time…..

  25. kiki: “third party anyone? this could be the time…..”

    I’m in.

  26. Obama lost whites 60-40 in both Indiana and NC. That is not a winning formula for the general election.

  27. This whole campaign has challenged all my most basic beliefs.

    Yes. Is it just me or was the false narratives about race baiting they used against the Clintons as ugly and unAmerican and disqualifying for the office as I think it was, or should be? And how sad is it that I’m sensing.. those stereotype things the Republicans say, about elitist liberals looking down on their fellow Americans.. they seem to have more than a grain of truth. or I wouldn’t be hearing my creative class educated peers so ready to believe that a good chunk of what I thought was the Democratic base is ignorant and only hears appeals of fear and racism, and should be driven from the party if possible. And if we nominate Obama I fear it’s going to be more of that, said openly, more and more. the contempt for anyone who doesn’t want to vote for their guy. Now that’s divisive.

  28. kiki: Me too. I just read on TalkLeft blog a statement by Donna Brazile where she indicated quite openly that they do not need our votes to win because they have a new coaltion of voters from the educated, suburban areas going forward. In other words they are saying to us what they have been saying to Hillary: Get out. So be it.

  29. After being a Democrat for 28 years, I guess it may be time for a change. Bullies have taken over the Democratic Party, and I don’t want any part of it if Hillary is not the nominee.

  30. IN vote to 51/49 with 91% in… getting scary tight.

  31. ufa, I agree with you. that the Clintons have been smeared as racists is ridiculous and unforgivable. it might win an election but in the long run it is so destructive and simply wrong. I absolutely understand AA excitement about an AA candidate. but this one isn’t the one. my sense is he cares about them much as W cared about evangelicals – they’re easily manipulated votes, not people.

  32. I decided some time ago to reregister Independent as soon as they knock HIllary out and declare Obama the winner. This isn’t the party I used to belong to.

    Please let me know when and where the third party is forming. I’m in.

  33. The Gary votes are coming in and they are going 75% for Obama. He may catch up with Hillary.

  34. WTF is going on in Lake county? 50% points? WTF?

  35. This is what I”ll do too. If Obama gets the nod, I’m registering as an Independent the nest day.

    The “new” Democratic party (a la D. Brazile tonight on CNN) doesn’t need me or want me, and I don’t give a rat’s ass about them.

  36. It’s down to about a 30,000 vote margin with 28% of the Lake County votes in.

  37. Donna said that and then tried to deny it when Begala called her out, from what I read. If that’s the coalition.. what happens to those who don’t have a college education. The working class voters. Seniors..
    If the party doesn’t want their votes, I’m out.

  38. Why did they start counting around midnight. What is this creepy mayor up to?

  39. Gary, Indiana,
    Gary Indiana,

    Not Louisiana, Paris, France, New York, or Rome,
    but Gary, Indiana,
    Gary, Indiana,
    Gary Indiana,
    My home sweet home.

    sorry, but I’m headed for bed and can’t get this song out of my head, so I thought I’d pass the curse on y’all 🙂

  40. LOL! That’s so funny! I *am* an educated suburbanite and I reject Obama with the core of my being. It has nothing to do with race. it has everything to do with not having a say in the matter. Without FL and MI, my vote in NJ means squat. I guarantee it that if Obama is the nominee, I will lift not one finger to help him. The DNC better wake up and smell the coffee. I am dead serious. And Hillary can’t twist my arm to make me do it. Sorry. I have free will and I intend to express it. I will campaign for Linda Stender this fall if Obama is nominated but not Obama himself. He gets nothing from me and no guilt trip is going to make me change my mind. Suck it up Donna. You’ve got one less constituency to work with.

  41. She did say it daria.

  42. MABlue,

    Something is very rotten in Lake County. Very rotten.

  43. All of IN smells to high heaven. I’m telling you: I don’t buy for a second that SUSA was totally off (Just yesterday, they had her at +12). But how? Bayh and the state Dems (supposedly) had Clinton’s back.

    At the very least, Gary is just totally messed up.

  44. Damn you, MABlue, I just stopped singing it. I had to replace it with something from Youtube, Now, I’m right back to it.

  45. We may well be seeing the fruits of a well-oiled political machine in Gary. Chicago-style.

  46. Davidson: It was an open primary. That’s all you need to know.

  47. Davidson, I agree. But if the turnout is what they are claiming, Hillary is going to lose Indiana. It has to be fraud, but will anything be done about it?

  48. I’m an educated suburbanite, too, and the Brazile party won’t get my vote.

    The Dems have tried to win elections without the middle class, and they go down in flames every time.

  49. Lake county is still stuck at 28% reported. They must have had to dig up some more graveyards. They are probably voting the dead from Chicago now.

  50. @RD: Could the GOP honestly pull off such a huge voter turnout for Obama? Enough to shave off about 8-12 points? I just don’t see that.

    If Obama is given the nomination (he never “won” it), I’ll just vote Democrat downticket–unless the candidate endorsed Obama. I’ve already changed my registration from D to undeclared, sent angry letters to the DNC, and vowed to not give one dime. If HRC herself came to my door, begging me to vote for Obama, I’d tell her the hell off. This is not about her. This is about the Democratic party and the very future of this country. This election will be a tipping point: McCain will screw us all and Obama will hand him the presidency on a silver platter.

  51. Yes, I’m feeling nervous, too, because of Gary. However, CBS did call it for Hillary and she gave a speech so it must be okay. Right?

    I feel that there’s something wrong with the Dems. i remember 2004 how everyone got behind Kerry, except me. I was a big Ewards supporter. I still say Edwards would have been a better candidate and could have won against Bush.

    Now we have Obama. The man has no experience. He would be a terrible president, worse than Carter. Why is he even a candidate? If he gets the nomination, then I’m not voting for him. I will write in Hillary or just not vote.

  52. No, it’s not OK. It looks like Obama is going to “win” Indiana. And something is very very wrong.

  53. Hello all, I hope this isn’t off topic, here goes.

    In his NC victory speech Obama flat-out FLUBBED a very important line. Remember, while talking about the American dream, symbolism etc, he paused in the middle of saying: “the flag draped over my …FATHER’S coffin”.

    Well, it would appear that Obama is having another one of his “Dreams of My Father”. His GRANDFATHER was the war veteran who was in that flag-draped coffin. That’s a pretty significant detail. Why couldn’t he keep that straight? Transcripts of the speech don’t reflect this error; they report him saying “grandfather”. See the full VIDEO here; he blows the line at 19:03.

    So sad that Obama can’t seem to properly honor those white grandparents who raised him. Any thoughts on this, anybody?

    [cross-posted at TL and No Quarter]

  54. I am beginning to think that Hillary will be deprived because of what we can’t see taking place. Those votes will be withheld in FL and MI and if they are forced to do something with FL at the least it will be nominal. And you know what, it might be just as well since she has been given very little support from by the MSM. They would continue to “punish” her until Nov for taking the crown from The One. He will go down in defeat, no question. We older Dems will not be rushing out to cast a vote for him and when the GOP starts those Rev Wright loops night after night the average white male is going to go directly to the “Maverick” McCain who will need only to display his ribbons and voila!, off to the races.

    This race has been determined as soon as it became came down to either or. They got rid of Edwards and set this up. It is disheartening, disillusioning, and demeaning. The thugs rule.

  55. @BB: I hope Clinton fights it. This is as subtle as Obama’s “modesty.”

  56. Is Lake county going to have more voters than there are actual people?

    Something is not kosha.

  57. Come on, everyone! It isn’t over till it’s over. There are two big wins coming up.

    If you feel down, do something, Donate! Canvas! Call! Write! Talk! Fight!

    She’s not conceding!

  58. How many people live in Union county?

    Does anyone here know?

  59. Let them steal it. I’ll feel less guilty sitting home in November.

  60. A statement from the Clinton camp that just came out was that they did win Indiana. Not 100% sure what they said verbatim but Fox reported it about 10 minutes ago. Earlier there was a Fox reporter outside where they were counting the ballots and said they told her it was just a slow count, and that’s it, many of the people counting the ballots were seniors, and it was just a slow count. She was very skeptical. Apparently per thread at Taylor Marsh, Toobin on CNN was as well, and Chuck Todd was like, oh no.

    Yes I’m watching Fox right now, their commenters are at least even in their general disapproval of Democrats. 🙂

  61. I am so heavy-hearted that despite only four hours of sleep last night, and being up since 5 am, I was very restless when I got into bed. So here I am again.

    I am very disillusioned with Obama, very disillusioned by the slack he’s been given by the press, very worried about how he will fair in the fall against McCain. I still want Clinton to win, I still think she should, and I am very very very pissed off at Dean and Brazile, whom I hold responsible, along with Obama himself, for the disenfranchisement of FLA and MI. And I am pissed that Obama is now claiming that he’s only 200 votes away from the nomination, when he’s only 200 votes away from a magic number that disenfranchises both FLA and MI.

    Having said all that, I will not leave the Democratic Party if Obama is the nominee. I will not vote for McCain. Never ever. McCain will not make a better president than Obama — even though Obama will not be anything close to the president Clinton would be — because he is nuts. He isn’t just Bush III. He’s Bush on steroids. President McCain keeps us in Iraq and blows up Iran (if Bush doesn’t do it first). He is not better on national security than Obama. He’s scary on national security, period.

    He appoints more Scalias and Alitos to the Supreme Court. He cuts taxes for the wealthy again, and he worsens the deficit. He continues the fight against reproductive freedom and the expansion of presidential power at the expanse of congressional authority.

    There is no question that Clinton would far and away be the best president of the three. I’m still willing to fight for her to have the chance to become president. But for all his disappointing qualities, Obama v. McCain isn’t even close. Obama may be the lesser of two evils, but let’s not forget how much more evil McCain really is.

  62. KIKI–I feel your pain…I still have my McCarthy bumper sticker! Maybe I’ll go find it and have a good cry…This party is over for me…you don’t disenfranchise voters and enable one candidate over another…esp. when he doesn’t deserve it….

    kiki, on May 6th, 2008 at 11:40 pm Said:

    my sense is that a lot of democrats will be leaving the party. as I sort of tried to express on another thread, I haven’t felt this disillusioned since I campaigned for Gene McCarthy way back when. I gave them another chance then. but if the party doesn’t even want to acknowledge us, why should we support them? third party anyone? this could be the time…..

  63. I”m beyond angry.

    Obama can go to hell.

    I’m donating to Hillary tomorrow . I’m not letting those bastards beat me.

  64. Has anyone else been reading TL’s commentary on Lake County? Something smells fishy….

  65. MABlue,

    I looked up Union County, and there are only about 7-8,000 people there. It looks to be in Hillary territory though. I don’t know why they are taking so long. There are close to 500,000 people in Lake County, but a lot of them have to be in suburban areas. This really stinks of fraud to me. SUSA has never been this far off this year.

  66. Hey y’all, I’m not sure I really understand the sentiment here. We all love our own candidates, and we are understandably upset when they do less well than we’d hope. However, when people start throwing around phrases like “This isn’t the party I joined.” or “Candidate X completely betrays what the Democratic party while Candidate Y is an upstanding exemplar of Democratic excellence.” etc betrays the influence of the media driven horserace. How many of you have compared Obama’s and Clinton’s policies point by point? And if you have, do you really think that mandates versus no mandates in healthcare is really worth the hand wringing? Because other than that, they are really quite similar. And without exception, their policies are more concrete and better than McCain’s.

    If your perception of the way the campaign has been run outweighs your perception of the candidates’ policies superiority over McCain’s policies, then I really don’t know what to say. I have to say in no uncertain terms, no matter how angry Clinton or Obama made me when they were spending Edwards into irrelevance or how angry Clinton makes me now that she’s contested my new favorite, Obama, that I have always pledged to vote for someone who will fight against the scourges of our time: poor healthcare; corporate controlled government; an out of control war in Iraq; under-achieving education. In other words, I will vote for Clinton in November and get drunk with you when she wins then.

    If you share those priorities with me (including the drinking!), then I encourage you to pledge to vote for the Democrat. I’m at a loss of how to explain how Clinton could possibly be worse than McCain in those issues. In fact, rather than thinking Clinton is a lesser of two evils, I think she’d be a damned good president. I would encourage you to consider the reciprocal alternative. That, if Clinton loses the nomination, you would see that Obama would not only be less “evil” on policy than McCain, but he would in fact be on the whole, a good leader.

    Let’s keep up the primaries. Keep building the party, keep turnout high, and keep sucking away John McCain’s media oxygen. And keep the other candidate’s campaign on its toes. But let’s also take the same step I have and give serious consideration for supporting the nominee.

  67. They are beginning to question the vote count over at MyDD.

  68. Is McCain really more evil?

    I’m not seeing why.

    Everything I hate and/or fear about McCain, I don’t see any difference in Obama.

    I do not believe Obama will get us out of the war. I do not believe he will have a substantially different approach to governing than Bush does and did.

    The only difference is, if Obama wins, that lends legitimacy to Brazile’s power to throw me and my kind out of “her” party.

  69. I’m with Sarah. Let’s not get down folks. Now is the time to donate and show everyone that the PEOPLE aren’t giving up on Clinton.

  70. Sorry Lw,

    Your words are falling on deaf ears here. This isn’t the Democratic Party I used to believe in. Maybe you haven’t been around as long as I have. I will never vote for Obama. I don’t care if Howard Dean and Donna Brazile are standing in the voting booth with guns to my head. I’d rather die than vote for him. If you don’t like it, lump it. I don’t vote for corrupt liars who divide the party on race, gender, and age lines. Obama cannot win the general election, but you want him as the nominee anyway? Good luck with that. I want a Democrat in the WH.

  71. I’d like to encourage people in MA to look into the Working families Party. I’ve been busy lately, but last time I worked with them on the ballot questions and liked what I saw, and they got a line on the ballot last time. I plan to reregister as WF when I leave the Misogyny Disenfranchisment Party.

  72. Nothing to apologize about bostonboomer. This is democracy at its finest. We should relish the interchange. I’m thrilled for you to engage.

    I have several questions of course. Nothing sinister or Socratic about the questions, just some clarifications so we aren’t talking past each other.

    What does the Democratic party mean to you?

    More importantly, what priorities for America are important to you?

    Why would my comments fall on deaf ears?

  73. If the Obama contingent succeeds in taking over the Democratic party, then we will have, in effect, two Republican parties.

    Who, then, will speak for the women of America? Who will stand up for our rights? Who will hold fast against sexism and misogyny?

    Who will fight for the middle class? Who will fight for working people? Who will fight for universal health care? Who will protect Social Security?

    Who will hold fast against polluters and thieves?

    Certainly not the new Obama-style Democratic party. The Obamabots are just like Republicans: swimming in sexism and utter disdain for anyone but themselves.

    If progressives want to have a voice at all in national politics, our only hope is to keep the Obamabots from taking over the Democratic party.

  74. LW: I was a Clarkie in 2004. I sucked it up and voted for Kerry, happily. I was not a Gore fan in 2000 but I bit the bullet when my party called for it.
    No mas. This is not like Kerry or Gore. This man is completely untested and will be obliterated by McCain in the general, which is just how the Republicans want it. But that’s not all. No. The way he and his campaign has sought to write us off like we’ll come running back to them before the end? uh-uh. They’d better think long and hard about this because they are crapping all over not just their base but their *majority*. They should not count on us in November. We won’t vote for McCain but that doesn’t mean we will vote for Obama. I’m strictly downticket unless FL and MI count.

  75. Lw,

    I wasn’t apologizing. It was a figure of speech. And I’m not going to play 20 questions with you.

  76. LwPhd,

    This is my reasoning. For me it comes down to Healthcare. I hate to say I’m a single issue voter this year, but there you go. The way I see it, I have two choices, should Hillary fail to secure the nomination. I can wait out 4 years of McCain and fight for Universal Health Care in 2012. Not an ideal choice, obviously. On the other hand, I could help vote in a Democrat who has attacked UHC, and in doing so, set back any hope of achieving this goal for an indefinite period of time. Obama lost my vote when he started the Harry and Louise fear mongering. He gave up on UHC without even fighting for it. It’s not enough to vote one of “us” in to office. Or it’s not for me.

  77. rd: And if FL and MI count at 100% and Obama leads, what then? If your vote spells the difference between McCain and not McCain, what then?

  78. WTF, Gary, IN?

    6,000 Absentee ballots to be counted later…or Wed? No rush…

    Gotta love the MSM, too…I thought the general consensus was it would be a close race in IN and a BO win in NC…Clinton winning NC would’ve been amazing, but it wasn’t her “peeps” there or her race to lose.

    Now the revisionist MSM is saying this is BO’s “Big Night” for doing what was expected–he was up 15 – 20% in NC and it was “neck & neck” in IN. So she won (or better win, otherwise there’s some ‘splainin’) in BO’s backyard and lost in NC, where no Dem is going to win ANYTHING in the GE. Please.

    IN looks to me to be like a stupid Caucus state that The Precious would normally win/get a bunch of delegates, except THIS time–when it’s a primary–this is the result….it’s close but it’s a CLINTON win.

    But this happy horseshit in Gary, IN–something just doesn’t smell right and it’s more than BO’s socks or what he’s cooking.

    Wouldn’t that be dreamy if one of his Chicago dreg associaitons gets him busted in election fraud? Why else the very weird, “GET A LOAD OF THIS….” prediction from the Gary Mayor Rudy Clay.

    The more I learn about this shmuck, the more I just can’t stand him–what a phony and win at all costs. Then just engage in some projectionism and call your opponent the very thing YOU are or have been thinking.

    And I keep thinking, “How the Hell did this guy get in the U.S. Senate?” I know he ran against a professional stand-in with Alan Keyes but man–he’s not even qualified for community organizer!

  79. Lake County votes are coming in again. It’s now 65/35, which is better than 75/25. They are probably trying to make it look as if they didn’t cheat. But the tell is that they waited this long to see how many votes were needed to put Obama over the top. This is ugly.

  80. Actually, the mandates for UHC is important. Without a mandate, UHC cannot succeed because of anti selection. It will totally destroy the idea of UHC.

    In my opinion, everyone’s vote is their own. They have their reasons. Everyone’s view of the candidates differ. They can vote as they like. No one should begrudge them their vote regardless of their reasons, be it a vote of protest, a vote of faith, a vote for change, a vote for competency, a vote of hatred, a vote of admiration, a vote for democrats, a vote for republicans, etc…. Democracy. That it is.

  81. @cloudy03

    Kerry lacked a universal health care plan any more comprehensive than Obama’s. Did it matter then. And if you are a single issue voter, will McCain be better?

  82. Lw: read my credo. It’s in a tab at the top of the site. This new Democratic party is nothing like it and if they intend to rig elections by keeping out 2.3 Million voters, I want no part of it.
    And BTW, it isn’t up to me to adjust my attitude. it is up to the candidates to try to win my vote. Obama hasn’t and will not. Don’t start peddling that guilt crap around here. We won’t put up with it . If Obama loses the General, it’s his supporters fault for cutting us out like we don’t matter. Well, good. Try to win an election without us. See, this is what you guys don’t get. *WE* have the power. Not fricking Howard Dean and Donna Brazile. It is time they started dancing to our tune.

  83. I noticed that moment with his “father’s” flag-draped coffin. I remember thinking, wait, his father was in the military, and we haven’t heard about it before?

  84. RD: Call the tune and we’ll play. I don’t want you to feel guilt. I’m guessing we have the same priorities. If we do, then I have no qualms about asking you to pick the tune we all dance to. Please call the tune.

  85. Tell it, Riverdaughter. I don’t need some troll to come in here and lecture me tonight.

  86. If my vote spells the difference between Obama and McCain, then maybe the frat boys who want to run this party should have taken reality into consideration before nominating a candidate who appeals to .000000009% of the population and will lose to Mccain among everyone else. We’re not here to get dumped on and then pull their sorry, clueless asses out of the fire. Let’s start an emergency cloning program for bloggers and PhDs.

  87. Obama is going to lose Mass. to McCain according to current polls. That’s before the RNC and other organizations do their thing on Obama. If the Democratic candidate loses Mass., he is not going to win the election.

  88. Lw,

    Did Kerry ATTACK UHC? You are missing the point. If the Dem nominee attacks UHC it dirties the water for all other Dem candidates. The Repubs would have a field day with the next Dem to come along and try to push for UHC.

    I am all for losing a battle, to win the war.

  89. No troll at all. I respect your opinions. I have neither attacked you, Clinton, nor her policies, nor have I promoted Obama against Clinton. My best friend in the whole world (my cousin) is an avid Clinton supporter and I have inordinate respect for him and am consequently sympathetic to his perspective. I happen to disagree. If you think polite, well-reasoned disagreement is trolling, then I think we’ll have to agree to disagree, and perhaps there is no room for dissent here.

  90. Hey, I’m close to a Ph.D. I won’t advertise it in my screen name after it’s awarded though.

  91. Folks, might I again suggest a small donation to lift your spirits? I know it’s made me feel better. Nothing like retail therapy! ;o)

  92. LW: No one here is a single issue voter. Let me lay it out for you so you have no misunderstandings: 1.) He is inexperienced. 2.) He has no coherent political philosophy and he seems almost embarrassed to call himself a Democrat. What does he believe in? We haven’t a clue. 3.) We detest to the core of our beings the way his campaign has characterized Clinton and her supporters as racist . 4) She is smarter, more qualified and a better all around candidate than he is. She actually seems to understand what she’s talking about. He is a pretender and it shows to those of us who are actually paying attention. 5.) he sat on a proposal to revote FL and MI. There is absolutely no excuse for this. He put political expedience before enfranchising voters of MI anf FL even though it would have resulted in a small hit to his delegate lead.
    In short, we have a lot of very legitimate reasons to not like him personally and politically. We don’t like the way our party has treated us and we will make ourselves known on election day. And if YOU don’t like it, stop posting to my blog and go tell Dean, Braile, Kerry, Kennedy, Pelosi and Obama. We are dead serious about it. Do not underestimate our anger.

  93. LwPhd: I can only speak for myself. I cannot support Obama for several reasons and I will list them for you so that you can see that my vote is simply not based on gender or race, two things that have been thrown at me by Obama supporters.

    1. Obama supporters themselves. They have turned the dialogue into a sham. There is no such thing as civil discourse which has led many of us to this blog which has a measured tone and a set of rules. No name calling. Pay attention to the opposing point of view. Stay within the framework of the discussion. The Obama supporters chose to insult the opposing candidate but ourselves as well. We had no choice but to flee.

    2. Donna Brazile has just openly admitted that our votes are not necessary to a win in November, that the party is now a newer, younger coalition and our support has been deleted from the equation. Many of us have worked within the party for many years, supporting candidates for local, state, and national offices. Come donor time the party is right in our faces. But now we have been relegated to the back of he bus so to speak. We are treated with little respect and we watch our candidate being demeaned by those speaking on behalf of the Democratic Party to which we all supposedly belong. Not a good feeling.

    3. Obama himself is inexperienced and again, speaking for myself, unqualified to hold the office of president. Especially at a time when whomever is sworn in come January will face a tremendous uphill effort to put things to right. He has not demonstrated to me from his background so far that he has the capability to do this.

    4. His ties to Rezko may not be criminal but they are suspect. Rezko was awarded millions of dollars from both state and local grants to rehab an area that was represented by Obama. Rezko failed to do anything with that money and many low income families went without heat, clean water, living in total blight and nowhere that I can detect has Obama offered an explanation of whether he ever challenged that man regarding the whereabouts of the funds. He apparently felt that it was okay for those people he represented to do without while he maintained an ongoing friendship with this indicted speculator. I am not hinting of wrongdoing just questioning his commitment to the poor that he refers to so easily during his appearances. If he can turn his back on the people of that Chicago district than he can do the same in office.

    4. What concerns me with Rev Wright is the fact that Obama showed very little loyalty to the man who he called a friend for 20 years. We can go back and forth on the political expediency of his decision to disown him, but the fact remains that it was in his interest to do so which I feel shows an absence of loyalty. This had been a long term relationship after all.

    5. I think he lied when he said he never heard those statements from Wright prior to broadcast. It bears incredulity to think that it was only during his non attendance those days that Rev Wright decided to go off as he did.

    6. Not for one minute do I believe that the Clintons introduced race as a perjorative into the campaign. Those statements came from the Obama camp and I believe it was done to drive that wedge in order to gain the full support of the black community. It is outrageous.

    Lastly, I can only base my decision on what I know of this candidate. Beating Alan Keyes in a Senate race is not an especially big deal you will have to admit. Sitting in the IL legislature for only 95 days out of the year is not a whole lot of experience to go on. Being a member of the Senate for a mere three years, one of which has been spent running for office, is not a whole lot of experience to run on. So yes, I am looking for an experienced candidate and he is not it.

  94. There are several counties showing less than 100%, all but one of them are Obama counties.

    Go to CNN and click on “map” and then rollover the counties with your cursor.

  95. Charles voices a cogent and logical reason to reject Obama. I disagree with the details, but I respect his reasoning. I have considered and rejected the very same reasoning for Clinton, myself.

  96. BB, I was reaching for my mouse to give you a rec for that one (and then I remembered I’m not there anymore).

  97. LwPhD,

    “Call the tune and we’ll play.”

    Who is “we”? Are you speaking for someone other than yourself?

  98. #
    LwPhD, on May 7th, 2008 at 12:31 am Said:

    Nothing to apologize about bostonboomer. This is democracy at its finest. We should relish the interchange. I’m thrilled for you to engage.

    I have several questions of course. Nothing sinister or Socratic about the questions, just some clarifications so we aren’t talking past each other.

    What does the Democratic party mean to you?

    More importantly, what priorities for America are important to you?

    Why would my comments fall on deaf ears?

    Man I can hear the condescension in this post. Obviously an Obama supporter over here to gloat.

    Hey LwPhd what does the Dem party mean to you. Does it mean that lunch box Dems are racists? Does it mean that you can just write them off by continuously degrading them. That the liberal elites really know what we need and we should just shut up and let you decided what’s good for us? Does it mean that you can insult women with impunity? That you can use sexist remarks and think that’s okay? That you don’t need the woman’s vote because you have blacks and liberal elites? That you can suppress the votes of millions of voters because they didn’t vote for you. That the DNC can punish millions of voters because the Repub majority in their state moved up the states primary voting date so we’re gonna punish them for someone else’s actions? Does it think that writing off two huge states is okay and that they’re gonna win the Presidency anyway?

    Tell me LwPhD, just what does the Dem party mean to you?

  99. Thank you Riverdaughter!

    The guilt trips are starting fast and furious with friends and colleagues but I’m not giving in on it. He WILL NOT get my vote. (Nor do I doubt that California will be in play between him and McCain. He’s still not getting my vote.)

    I just don’t understand why Hillary is giving up now (i.e. canceled appearances.) I suspect it’s because she cannot bear to unleash the true nuclear option of trashing him for voter fraud in Indiana and the caucuses. If so that is misplaced loyalty on her part to a party that has betrayed her and us.

    Man I must be getting old, I know truly understand Reagan’s line: I never left the Dems, the Dems left me.

  100. Here is one update from jeralyn:

    Update: Wow. The Mayor of Hammond, also in Lake County, just said on Larry King Live that Hillary won Hammond by 600 votes and they turned the votes in at 6:30 and Lake County didn’t release the votes. The votes they are releasing now are from Gary. They also failed to report the votes of four other cities in the county that she won. He says the mayors know the results and don’t know why Lake County refused to release the vote count.

  101. @rd: cloudy claimed to be a single issue voter. But I’ll back off of that if you prefer.

    @ Pat J. re: 1) We could talk. I support Obama and I’m pretty sure I won’t denigrate or insult or patronize you. I’m pretty sure you could probably teach me as much or more than I can share with you. But one caution: with religion, politics, family matters, etc, it is always the worst statesmen that are heard the loudest. This is true on “pro-Obama” sites where the Clinton supporters are less than polite and certainly on this site where Obama supporters have made asses of themselves. I don’t blame you for the “bad” Clinton supporters and I’m trying to do my small part to increase the average politeness for the Obama supporters.

  102. Running to work right now. Sorry if it seems I’m fleeing, but I’m late. If this thread isn’t stale later, I’ll drop in a few more comments.

  103. She has sent out an e mail tonight thanking everyone for their efforts in winning IN, and asking for contributions.

    Doesn’t sound like giving up, to me.

    Maybe she just needs some sleep. Good on her.

  104. Hillary is about 2-2.5% behind and trailing about 784K (not including MI/FL and including the 4 missing caucuses. She can cut that lead down w/ WV, KY, and especially PR (not to mention MI/FL).

  105. “Charles voices a cogent and logical reason to reject Obama”

    I’m sure he appreciates your approval. No offense, but you do realize you sound a bit condescending here, right? Maybe it’s not your intention, but that’s what’s coming across. I’m pretty sure that most of the people here have voted in the past and do understand the concept of getting behind the party’s nominee, they’ve all done it 100 times. You’re kind of speaking to people as if they’re 4…and not very intelligent 4 year olds, at that.

  106. Ok, LwPhD, let me turn this around on you. I’m someone who has identified with the Democratic Party and what it stood for as far back as hating Reagan when I was 8 years old.

    I canvassed and volunteered for Democratic candidates before I was eligible to vote and cast my first votes for a straight Democratic ticket and have continued to do so (with one exception in a county race 10 years ago that I have since come to deeply regret) for the past 16 years.

    I watched friends and family suffer under the Rethugs economic policies during the 80s. As a gay man I have been enraged by the Conservatives stance on g’/l issues. I can literally see red thinking about how the Repugs used a Southern Strategy under Nixon to peel off white votes and perpetuate the racial divide in this country. Finally, four years ago I left a job in corporate America to work, full time for my local branch of the Democratic Party (which fully supports HRC) because I believed so much in what the party stood for.

    But I am bound and determined to vote for McCain in November, unless you can answer this question.

    How else do I punish them? What other means do I have to make them accountable – and by them I include Obama, Axelrod, Brazile, Dean, Kennedy and the Blogger Boyz who committed blood libel against the Clinton’s and accused them of being racist?

    How else do I make it ABSOLUTELY CRYSTAL F*%&#ING CLEAR to the wine trackers and the millenials that I remember the 80’s and 90’s like they were yesterday and that conflating them is offensive?

    How else do articulate to those who weren’t there that when I marched on Washington for g/l issues I never once doubted that the Clinton’s had my back? And that their embracing of gays and lesbians fostered the atmosphere that allowed the movement to bloom in the 90s. (Anyone else remember the Bush/Quayle years, and “not another lifestyle choice? ’cause I sure do.)

    How do I school the younger generation that the Republican attack machine was at its zenith during the 90’s and the Bill Clinton took its abuse not because he deserved to, but simply because he was there, in the White House, which the Repugs thought they owned? And that hearing those same attacks coming from people on the left makes my blood boil?

    Because I would really like to know. I’ve thought about posting that question here before, but your question finally spurred me to action.

    So what say you LwPhD? What say you fellow Conflucians? Other than voting for McCain, how do we deny these bastards their putsch on the Democratic Party, how else do we punish them?

  107. Gavche,

    Let’s face it. Anyone who includes his/her academic degree in a screen name is automatically tacky, tacky, tacky. Lw should run on over to the Cheetos place and stay there.

  108. LW: I don’t think you get it yet. you can not talk us into supporting Obama. Only HE can do that and only if he wants to. So far, he doesn’t want to.
    But it’s not just that. We actually LIKE Clinton and think she would make a better president.
    So, I don’r really want to talk about any other option. She’d be ahead or even now with Mi and FL. We’ve seen enough of Obama to know that he might be smarter than George Bush but he’s just as clueless in many other ways.
    Take your little song and dance elsewhere. We are not interested. And if someone comes in here trying to start some kind of fricking dialog to try to get us to accept the unaccaptable race-baiting, clueless, unprincipled neophyte, their comments will have a very short half life here.

  109. LwPhd: You must be able to detect the anger coming for posters on this blog. The anger is directed at the unfairness of this campaign. Some votes count, others do not. Let’s count, let’s not. Our candidate has been villified throughout by the MSM. She has had her clothes, hairstyle, laugh, voice, legs, age, held up for ridicule. Pundits have made snide asides, calling for her to get out forgetting that up until now this is a democracy and she has every right to go the distance. She has been accused of “racism” along with her supporters. Very few in the media have come to her defense. Some programs are Obama commercials 24/7. Edwards was ignored. Hillary demeaned. Obama glorified.

    None of use here are that blind to her ambition that we consider her flawless but she does speak for us. And we are also not blind to his paper thin resume and all it does not reveal. He is inexperienced and I think even you will admit to that. Pledging “hope” and “change” and “unity” while disengaging a whole segment of the voters is not showing me that this will not be the prevailing theme once he is in office. I choose not to cast my vote for him and the DNC can threaten to take my firstborn but I will not support him.

  110. According to Jeralyn, all of the Obama areas in Lake County have reported. The outstanding votes are from places like Crown Point where Hillary will win. Every other mayor in Lake County except for the Gary Mayor endorsed Hillary. So she could still pull it out.

  111. It sounds like CNN has called Indiana for Hillary. Thank goodness!

  112. CNN is now declaring IN for Hillary.

    She’s currently ahead by 22K votes.

    What a horrible day!


  113. Fox is also calling Indiana for Hillary. I guess the Mayor of Gary didn’t dig up enough corpses this time.

  114. Hillary wins IN which I hope staves off the superdees.

    Obama lead is now 764K votes. We’re back to where we were before Pennsylvania but at least the last major Obama state, NC, is done. There’s still Oregon though but hopefully we can keep it close there and rack up the vote in WV and KY.

  115. Riverdaughter,

    This is in support of your refusal to “accept the unaccaptable race-baiting, clueless, unprincipled neophyte”.

    Methinks, we (Hillary-supporters) need to keep some focus on
    Obama’s VULNERABILITIES! i.e. his DISHONESTY, his INGRATITUDE, his problem with appearing UNPATRIOTIC, his PREJUDICE against white folks.

    All of that is tied up with a pretty big bow in the key FLUBBED LINE from his NC victory speech. (Details are in my post upstream.)
    Toward the end of his speech, he went all out to ramp up his patriotism and love of America. But, while waxing about the land of opportunity and his family’s service to the country, he fucked it up.

    He couldn’t pull off the patriotism, or gratitude, or honesty. He couldn’t keep a major, intimate part of his own narrative straight (again). He attributed his white grandfather’s service in the US military to his African father; and in that process of projection and misremembering he demonstrated his lack of conviction in the all-American sentiments and values he was ‘hoping’ to graft onto himself.

    I know I may be off-topic, but in terms of going forward, am I way out in left field here?

    [partial cross-post No Quarter]

  116. It’s very rotten, Charles. This doesn’t look at all good for Obama. It puts a spotlight on his and Michele’s involvement with the Daley machine, Blagovich, and Rezko. Hillary really needs to deal with this.

  117. Charles, we leave it to you since you have the expertise but this blog is not alone in suggesting something strange may be taking place. I am sure if you find out anything you will keep us posted.

  118. PieHole: You are not in left field. A flub like that to a vet or a southern white male with a strong sense of patriotism is going to go against him. People get all wrapped up in the flag. One reason we are in Iraq today. You could not disagree with that move and not be considered unpatriotic at that time. He is a cutout with no real core beliefs like rd has stated. And unfortunately most of the public are not political junkies like you and I who dig for the truth. They take it from soundbites letting John McCain bask in his misplaced accolades. So no, you are not in left field.

  119. I still think they robbed her blind in IN. She was to win by 8, at least, which I feel would’ve helped her greatly as she went towards the final stretch. By only “winning” by the slimmest of margins, it looks like she’s in death’s grip.

  120. Who, then, will speak for the women of America? Who will stand up for our rights? Who will hold fast against sexism and misogyny? Who will fight for the middle class? Who will fight for working people? Who will fight for universal health care? Who will protect Social Security?

    I don’t know. I didn’t think I’d be asking these questions when the primary started last year, but the behavior of the Obama campaign makes me pretty sure they’d throw any/all of these values out the window for political advantage and sure wouldn’t stand up and fight for them.

  121. Davidson,

    Yup. It stinks to high heaven.

  122. I could never vote for Obama who proves by the company he keeps and the rude supporters he attracts that he does not share my values. He has made it where he is in this process so far by playing race cards right and left. The fact that the Democratic Party “leadership” allowed his campaign to portray the Clintons as racists and has been pushing an inexperienced candidate who is running on Axelrod’s cult-like ad campaign of Hope+Change (a rerun of that for Gov. Deval Patrick) shows that it doesn’t understand what is necessary to run the country. No real experience for the most difficult job in the U.S.? I bet most of us know how inexperience doesn’t work out all that well for the jobs we hold.

    If Michigan and Florida are not treated fairly, I am registering as an Independent.

    I will not vote for McCain, but rather will write in Hillary’s name. Whoever becomes president has a big mess to clean up. If a novice who loves the limelight but seems bored with policy is the Dem nominee, I’d rather that McCain and the Republican Party be forced to end this war of Bu$h and Company’s making. Obama would be a screw up in my opinion. He probably promised both Nancy P. and Richardson the VP slot.

    Should Obama be the nominee, I hope that the down- ticket candidates don’t suffer (those that didn’t endorse Obama–those that have will receive my vote for “change”).

    Never in my lifetime has there been someone at the top of the Dem. ticket for whom I could not morally vote. I hope that change is not having Chicago politics forced down the throat of loyal Democrats.

    After Obama, the next time a suit claims to be a uniter not a divider, I’ll run fast.

    This was a man that didn’t even want to be seen campaigning in black districts. Shame on him.

    A former friend who is a “lukewarm” Obama supporter but recites the right-wing Clintons smears gleefully (Huff Post imbiber of propaganda) hopes that the President is McCain–to save the Democratic Party. She says that all of the “youth” vote will make up for the women who in the past have been the volunteers behind the Democratic Presidential campaigns, but that Obama won’t win the middle-American white vote.

  123. BB: She better fight this, but I don’t see her doing it. All of IN looks skewed.

  124. Next week will look different when WV votes. It will highlight his problem with blue collar whites.

    The issue right now is if the WWTSBQ calls will depress turnout. She has to go out there and say she’s going all the way. Gary, IN and the mayor ruined the night.

  125. BTW – Michelle Obama’s dad was a precinct captain in the Daley machine.

    I need beer.

  126. @WS: I’m thinking IN was a crucial blow to her because it neutered her ability to raise $$$. She’ll need money to crank out the GOTV in WV, KY and I don’t think she really has any left.

  127. She won IN. He should have won it, but she did. He can outspend her 14-1 as usual in WV and KY, she’s still going to win.

  128. I will not be blackmailed by Roe V Wade into voting for a candidate whose supporters (Axelrod and Brazille) have done more to harm the party in 6 months than many could have done in years.

    Roe V Wade is the Democratic Party’s problem and if it’s overturned, it’s the Democratic Party’s fault.

    There is too much seriously wrong with this election (Lake County being some icing on the cake) to award the corrupt candidate who was shoved down our throats with a win.

    There is no way I’ll vote for this man.

  129. She can self fund if she really wants it, I think. Plus, I’m hoping she gets funds after WV.

    RCP updated and its Obama +822K votes and 527K votes w/ FL. Its still the pre PA margin but without NC to buttress Obama afterwards.

  130. Thanks folks for being here. I don’t believe that Oregon is in the bag for him.

    Off to send some money. Don’t disappoint me Hilary by dropping out tomorrow.

  131. Teresa23: Roe V Wade is the Democratic Party’s problem and if it’s overturned, it’s the Democratic Party’s fault.

    It’s the Dem version of a fear card, also directed at women, of course. No better than the Republicans.

  132. I’ve got to wonder just what would really happen if the Repubs actually outlawed Abortion. I mean, how many women would go to the ballot box the next election and throw the bums out.

  133. Is McCain really much worse than Obama? Obama will be much better on symbolic changes, meaning that he can get away with murder if he keeps the class that supports him happy. MaCain will get criticism (if not from the MSM) from day one from all the people who didn’t support him. You don’t need to vote for McCain to express your displeasure, and don’t just not vote, since then they won’t know you exist, but vote for some third party candidate that better reflects your beliefs. Look around, there are several to choose from.

  134. @RD:

    I apologize for having interrupted your blog. I misinterpreted the unmoderated comments to mean, that despite your spirited writing style, you were still interested in welcoming outside comment. But do seriously take your request: “Take your little song and dance elsewhere. We are not interested.” as a request for me to desist. No parting shots. Just a wish of good luck to your candidate in the remaining primaries, and if she makes it, in the general election.

    Go Hillary!

    Clinton ’08

  135. Here’s what it comes down to. In November, if I should find myself standing in front of a ballot, will I or will I not pass up my chance to vote for the first African American nominee of a major political party? And that’s the only question, there being no other reason to vote for a half-term senator and empty suit who is severely underqualified for the U.S. presidency. If you disagree, ask yourself why his coalition is African Americans (91 percent, was it, in North Carolina?) and proto/crypto-racist guilty white liberals. Oh sorry–guess I’m a vile racist myself, like Geraldine Ferraro (and John Kerry, and David Axelrod).

  136. Charles: Lambert at Correntewire did a good synopsis of the vote irregularities.

  137. <b<Is McCain really much worse than Obama?

    Yes because of the types of people that he will appoint as Cabinet Secretaries. We do not need another Elaine Chow at Labor on the side of the corporations and trying to stick it to the workers any chance she gets. We do not need Corporate lobbyists in charge of the EPA trying to drill in Alaska and allowing pesticide testing on children without parental consent.
    We need real adults in charge of the Justice System instead of flunkies writing memos authorizing torture. We need to get rid of Gitmo. I spent two years in DC working for the government from 2005-2007 and I’ve got to tell you that there are a lot of career workers holding on by their teeth because they are so beaten and depressed about what this administration is doing to our country and our government. They are counting on a Democratic Administration to allow them to work with pride again, to be able to like going to work again. If a Repub is elected again I can assure you that there will be a ton of retirements from the Federal Government. They are already concerned in DC because about 20-30 percent of the Federal workforce is eligible to retire in the next 2-5 years and many of them at the Senior Executive level. Trust me, we need a Dem in the White House. We DO NOT need the repubs putting their people in careerist jobs and having them serve for another 20 years.

    For all of us who despair at the possibility of having to vote for Obama, and trust that I am one of those folks, hopefully the above paragraph will help you pull the lever for the candidate with the D after their name no matter who they are.

  138. Lw, what I meant was I’m a single issue voter on why I won’t vote for Obama. Everything else I could have gotten past, I think. It’s been a long day.

  139. RD, or to whom it may concern – I have two comments in moderation. Did I do something wrong?

  140. RD: Many people mistakenly think their “freedom of speech” gives us an obligation to listen.

    I applaud your enforcing the house rules.

    Imagine if you had to put up with people coming in your home to lecture you on whatever they wanted.

    This is your soapox. You can allow others to use it, but you are not required to do so.

    Let them find their own soapbox.

    And thank you for letting me occasionally use yours.

  141. just got an email from BO (time = 11:44pm pdt) claiming that IN is “too close to call”…

    wonder if he’s looking for a recount?

  142. BTD has a none-too-pretty thread running at TL: “What Hillary Should Do”. Upshot, BTD basically says stay in/no harm. However, the thread has turned hard toward discussing who should be OBAMA’S VP!

    Anybody still up?

  143. the trolls are everywhere tonight and I’m heading for bed, Pie Hole.

  144. lisadawn, I think some words or combinations will trigger automatic moderation is all.. or sometimes putting a hyperlink.

  145. LwPhD…..don’t take it personally. You have behaved very well and I am glad you stopped by.

    This has been a nightmare primary for those of us who have spent our whole adult lives fighting for Democrats, for a big tent coalition, only to find this year that a candidate with no bona fides to speak of had been drafted with the express purpose of getting rid of the Clintons…by accusing them of racism, and more.

    It is clear now that not only racism, sexism and ageism have been invoked…but class warfare, splitting the party right down the middle.

    It is not acceptable…not democratic…not right. It appears that there is nothing anyone can say or do to fix it.

  146. oldpro, I agree completely. if we must go the BO nomination route, and I still don’t think that’s a foregone conclusion.. frankly one path I see to putting the pieces back together is if BO is nominated, Hillary campaigns for him (she’d have to), he loses anyway (very likely and possibly not even close), and then.. then we find a way to rebuild. I think the worst possible outcome is BO being elected because he’s going to be a divider as much as W and damage the party for a long time to come. Just my 2 cents

  147. dar1a g:then we find a way to rebuild

    Hear, hear.

  148. I’m still up but I’m on HST. I had to log off of TL, it got too depressing and I refuse to be down. We did good tonight and we will go on to kick some a$$ in WV and KY.

  149. Donna Brazille declared tonite that the democratic party don’t need white working class voters and hispanic voters. Think about that if you are still thinking about voting democratic in Nov.

  150. He cheated.!

  151. Hey Cloudy–you still there, wahine?

  152. 5.) he sat on a proposal to revote FL and MI. There is absolutely no excuse for this. He put political expedience before enfranchising voters of MI anf FL even though it would have resulted in a small hit to his delegate lead.

    And RD, sweetums, don’t forget he couldn’t have gotten away with dat crap if he had not had some backing from, at least, Howie and the DNC even if it was tacit agreement.

    If they don’t want my white, middle-class vote (Ms. Brazile), uh, I’ll just go away and won’t be a part of the group formerly known as the Democratic Party.

  153. What’s all this Happy Horseshit that NOW is the time for her to quit? How is it any different than a couple of primaries (one she WON) are over and several more are on tap. Ugh…now they’re discussing WHO should be “The One” to tell her to …ahem….you know….”


    What I don’t get is that MSM has been saying all along these past couple of months….

    HRC MUST win TX or OH or RI–otherwise, she’ll be asked to drop out, as she’s ruining the Clinton Brand and ruining the party.

    OK–here you go….TX, OH and RI….(minus that curious little caucus thing Obama is about to make a nationwide election process for the general–he loves ’em)

    Now, HRC–yeah, she won those little primaries but BO and math and BO and math and more math with BO and with BO & math? Just impossible.
    BUT–if HRC can find a way to beat Obama in PA…well, then that’s a whole different angle! That’s a new season for Clinton!

    OK–there you go….PA and not only that, PA in a LANDSLIDE.

    Well, shoot–uh…NOW to be relevant, HRC MUST, MUST, MUST win IN.

    OK…Indiana. Done.

    Even if she had pulled off NC someway, what would’ve changed? NADA!

    Now “they’re” saying Hillary had to win by 35 points to have…what, exactly? “She lost tonight b/c she threw the kitchen sink at him–and only came away with a slim IN win.” Even if she HAD won IN by big numbers, we go to the math. Even if she had pulled off IN with big numbers AND NC in an upset…oh, yeah–the math. Remember the math! And Guam!

    These people are a quart low of a tank. Obama is back to levitation, Michelle’s back to wearing the big pearls (get it? Jackie-O? Wink, wink, nudge, nudge…)
    and “journalists” are just pissed off that they have to cover this campaign for X more weeks–at least through June 3rd.

    I’m giving my rebate $$ to HC4P and we’ll see what happens. I just know the longer this thing goes, the more Barry looks like a peevish, immature, “but the nomination was MINE–I was winning and ahead and stuff really good. Then they want to ask lame questions about “the past” –I’m the “future dude.”

    Good God–nothing really changed from Monday–would’ve been AWESOME if HRC won IN big and squeaked out NC, but in the end, no one would give that any kind of relevance….blah, blah, blah…the math, the math, the math…..

    Our girl will get a game together and find a way–I believe! She has good instincts, she’ll do well in KY, WV and looks like OR….there’s still some votes to count and maybe some skeletons to uncover from The Precious.

    Hell–she just may have more endurance and he just finally gives up, citing “Folks….I’m just too damn tired to go on. This campaign is more work than I’ve ever seen in my life–HRC is familiar with opponents and I, The Precious One, have never had anyone opposed to me in ANYTHING or had anyone question my values or experiences or preparation or views or plans or anything. I’m me! And I sure love me some me (big grin)
    {cult chanting follows} “We’re waiting for us! We’re waiting for us!!”

    HRC stay in there baby—just to watch the MSM implode!!!! OR, (gasp!) to win the nomination!!!!

  154. Pat Johnson and Old Coastie, thanks for the feedback. Good to hear an echo at times like these. Koa Chick, great rant.

    To other Hillary supporters, thank you one and all for keeping my ‘hope’ alive.

    Good night, let’s go ‘have a dream’ of our own.

  155. Question after reading the OP. Do you think the split along race line in the democratic party that Obama would appear to have encouraged will enable the republican party to get the door opened among African American voters for them?

  156. Thank you Charles. You are terrific! I have to work all day today but will watch the videos and read your blog later tonight.

  157. […] with her thoughts on yesterday’s results: I think what we’re seeing here is a real racial divide. It was engineered, deliberately, by […]

  158. […] Nuclear nightmare scenario: Guam determines nominee (by riverdaughter at The Confluence) I think what we’re seeing here is a real racial divide. It was engineered, deliberately, by Obama’s campaign in order to separate African Americans from the Clintons. It has worked spectacularly well… [I am] deeply offended … by how Obama has split my party on racial lines and pitted race against their regular party members, as if there was a real split there to begin with. As if I were the enemy. He has pitted Dem against Dem. I am insulted that Howard Dean and Donna Brazile have put their thumbs on the scales for Obama instead of encouraging him to agree to revotes in FL and MI. The thought of voting for him under these circumstances fills me with revulsion. And there’s no amount of cheerleading that Hillary can do to make me change my mind. It’s not her. It’s him. […]

  159. […] said last night at The Confluence: “If the Obama contingent succeeds in taking over the Democratic party, then we will have, in […]

  160. […] said last night at The Confluence: “If the Obama contingent succeeds in taking over the Democratic party, then we will have, in […]


    This is because English language not suitable anymore because the original Bible is in Arabic.

    The full story is here: ckasih.blogspot.com

  162. it wasn’t Obama that had surrogates find ways to remind everyone on a weekly basis that Obama was black, that he lived in the hood, that he might be a muslim terrorist….if one person from the Clinton campaign made a race-specific remark regarding Obama, it can and should be dismissed as a stupid lack of judgment on that person’s part. when, however a number of people make such remarks (his campaign is just so much shuck and jive, he is every liberal’s imaginary black friend, he is only popular because he is black, etc etc etc…) at least 7 times, then a pattern of behavior is discernible. a disturbing pattern.
    when ferarro said that Obama is where he is because he is black i had to stop and think….
    suppose a famous first lady, married to a popular president ran for president against a black man named Barack Hussein.
    who in their right mind would say the black man with the muslim name would have an advantage?
    and BTW, he IS getting white votes….are you suggesting in the GE that white Hillary supporters will vote republican rather than vote for a black man?

  163. The next supreme court justice will be just like Scalito. And you will be one of the reasons for it.

    And I am sure you will whine about it if it happens. That’s what people like you are best at.

  164. not if Obama is president, Mike S

  165. […] Riverdaughter: I think what we’re seeing here is a real racial divide. It was engineered, deliberately, by Obama’s campaign in order to separate African Americans from the Clintons. It has worked spectacularly well. Obama consistently wins urban and southern AA voters, by lopsided margins. It didn’t have to be this way. There was no reason for the African-American community to spurn Clinton. But in this America, in 2008, color is everything. It seems like the civil rights movement of the 60’s was just a dream. As long as you are the right color, you’re golden. Color masks a multitude of deficiencies- experience, knowledge base, earned coalitions, even interest. Obama has not reached out to the working class, to women, to the elderly, the loyal base of the Democratic party. But he has managed to exacerbate the fault line in the party when it comes to race. There’s no doubt about that now. […]

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