• Tips gratefully accepted here. Thanks!:

  • Recent Comments

    William on Is “Balance of Nature…
    Propertius on Is “Balance of Nature…
    William on Is “Balance of Nature…
    William on Is “Balance of Nature…
    Beata on Is “Balance of Nature…
    lililam on Is “Balance of Nature…
    William on Is “Balance of Nature…
    lililam on Is “Balance of Nature…
    Propertius on The Iron Lady’s first impressi…
    Propertius on The Iron Lady’s first impressi…
    Propertius on The Iron Lady’s first impressi…
    Propertius on Why is something so easy so di…
    jmac on Why is something so easy so di…
    William on Artificial Intelligence and It…
    Beata on Artificial Intelligence and It…
  • Categories

  • Tags

    abortion Add new tag Afghanistan Al Franken Anglachel Atrios bankers Barack Obama Bernie Sanders big pharma Bill Clinton cocktails Conflucians Say Dailykos Democratic Party Democrats Digby DNC Donald Trump Donna Brazile Economy Elizabeth Warren feminism Florida Fox News General Glenn Beck Glenn Greenwald Goldman Sachs health care Health Care Reform Hillary Clinton Howard Dean John Edwards John McCain Jon Corzine Karl Rove Matt Taibbi Media medicare Michelle Obama Michigan misogyny Mitt Romney Morning Edition Morning News Links Nancy Pelosi New Jersey news NO WE WON'T Obama Obamacare OccupyWallStreet occupy wall street Open thread Paul Krugman Politics Presidential Election 2008 PUMA racism Republicans research Sarah Palin sexism Single Payer snark Social Security Supreme Court Terry Gross Texas Tim Geithner unemployment Wall Street WikiLeaks women
  • Archives

  • History

  • RSS Paul Krugman: Conscience of a Liberal

    • An error has occurred; the feed is probably down. Try again later.
  • The Confluence

    The Confluence

  • RSS Suburban Guerrilla

  • RSS Ian Welsh

    • The First Great Environmental Crisis Will Be
      Water. As I’ve said for many years. The world is facing an imminent water crisis, with demand expected to outstrip the supply of fresh water by 40 percent by the end of this decade, experts have said on the eve of a crucial UN water summit. I’ll use the US as an example, though this going to effect almost all countries, some much worse than others, and it wi […]
  • Top Posts

Open Thread: Stonings and BLASPHEMERS!

So, Governor Easley said Hillary Clinton made Rocky Balboa look like a pansy, a small fragile spring flower that wilts easily. Suddenly, his office is flooded by phone calls, people are outraged and turning purple that he used a slur against gays.

FOCUS, people! Everyday, we use words and phrases that have the ability to piss off one group of people or another. In the great majority of cases, no offense is intended and none is taken. If we start taking it up to 11 on every word not separated from another word or concept by an appropriate distance, we will be reduced to grunting and the time remaining until August will be like pure torture to the more verbal among us.

Now, nobody throw any more stones until I blow the whistle even if, and I want to make this absolutely clear, someone does say “pansy”.

Keep your eyes on the prize.

This is an open thread.

85 Responses

  1. As a card-carrying gay guy, I would like to report that “pansy” is literally the name of a delicate flower.

  2. Thank you, DCD, for keeping it in perspective. Much appreciated.

  3. riverdaughter – you put up a post calling attention to it yet saying to stop talking about it?

    head scratcher.

    and somewhat dismissive of the good points made in the other thread.

  4. Well, I’m Gay and it doesn’t bother me. I think pansies are very pretty, and I’m the farthest thing from one. Just saying!

  5. Ike Skelton of Missouri has cast his lot with our Hillary. I guess Easly is a superdelegate, so Hillary picks up two today.

  6. Andre: If Easley had gone with Obama, I’d be on the phone. But I am of a kindred spirit with all supporters of Hillary.

  7. (and exhale) I’d like to hear more about Hillary? Someone said they just saw her on TV? Was it a press conference? Or a Speech?

  8. Judith: the point is if we get outraged every time someone says a word that is offensive to one group or another, we will quickly reduce ourselves to the absurdity of the Life of Brian skit above. There were a lot of commenters in the other thread going postal over the pansy remark. We’ll have finished talking about Wright and will be taking on Easley next. The media will love it. More distraction.
    Pick your battles. Do you want to beat Obama in NC or do you want to become the language nanny?

  9. DCDemocrat: good point, I like Hillary too, but it still wouldn’t have bothered me. I think RD is correct: “no offense is intended”, and that’s probably the way Hillary would see it too. We got bigger things to spend our time on!

  10. And it’s off to the fainting couch!

    i am sure axelpod will pounce on this like marmaduke on a snausage..

    “Clinton must distance herself from this horrible no good bad guy or else! This is outrageous! This is horrible! This could end life as we know it and certainly shows how she and her supporters are racists and homophobes!!”

    where are my pearls to clutch and my hankie to dab my forehead..

    i’m sure this will be the top story for two days to divert attention from the Rev Jerimiad “if you disagree with me you disagree with the black church..” Wrong-Way..

    (PS I heard Stephanie Miller this morning say: “Obama calls this ‘the silly season'” as if BARRY coined that phrase. Seriously.. and that was the summation of her reaction to Rev Wrong’s latest… )

  11. I’m gay and the pansy remark didn’t even register with me. Totally non-offensive. Like I said in the thread below, this is just a tactic by the press to insert divisiveness into the Dem party.

  12. OMG awesome clip!!!! haven’t seen that in forever.

  13. Katie – If your looking for Hillary on tv apparently she’s agreed to be on Bill O’Reilly this Wednesday for some reason I cannot begin to comprehend… particularly given some of the horrid things he’s said about her and her family in the past. I thought Obama made a mistke going on Fox news too, but O’Reilly?!? Anyone have a clue what she hopes to gain by this? I can’t imagine why she would give him the time of day, let alone an actual “interview”.

    Link to the O’Reilly page forcasting the interview if anyone can stomach actually going to the site: http://www.foxnews.com/oreilly/index.html

  14. I heard Hillary friend Aravosis was trying to make this an issue over at Americablog. I don’t go to that absurd site anymore so I can’t verify. I did see a link with a snippet though.

    Sigh. This sort of thing, along with Obama camp’s playing of the race card, trivialize real issues effecting the gay and African American communities.

  15. MyDD is publishing a poll out of Indiana – Hillary up by 8 points. And Ike Skelton just endorsed Hillary.

  16. Rivrdaughter – the point is you put up a whole new post on it thus keeping it alive. All that needed to be said was already said very well in the previous thread – Gary was very cool about it.

    i am not going on with this – but if something is posted, expect people to comment.

    bye y’all.

  17. billd, She was on Olbermann’s show not too long ago. I wonder if she thinks it’s a challenge to visit with people who hate her?

    No, someone on one of the other threads said they just saw her (meeting with an editorial board, maybe?) and I wondered how that went.

    If anything interesting was discussed.

  18. This is the one place on the internet I will choose to vent about this…I’ve been on BlueNC, I’ve been on Pam’s House Blend, and this STUPID story keeps coming up with a bajillion comments (from Obama supporters anyway, but that’s the interweb)…

    I tell my non-political friends that this…THIS…is the reason why alot of these posters are completely out of touch with the American people and why the progressive agenda rarely gets pushed forward b/c people spend too much time fighting over the namecards, the meeting never starts.

    Seriously, seriously, seriously, this is one of the stupidest issues I’ve ever seen. Can I see how someone could take offense? Sure…but I can see a lot of things. It wasn’t said that way, it was a joke…the gov. just meant wimp, not that Hillary makes Rocky look like a homosexual. I mean, jeebus people…

    We only have a few days left to try to get over the next speed bump. Sen. Obama has already come out to denounce his pastor a few moments ago, so do we really want to substitute a story for the now opened-up news cycle?

  19. captsfufp: It’s amusing to see Obama supporters all of a sudden so sure fired upset about gay people being offended. If Obama had put McClurkin off the stage, he wouldn’t have lost the gay vote as profoundly as he has.

  20. captsfufp: You’re absolutely right. The wordsmith mavens can fight about prepositions until phrases lose all meaning. But I hope I am making it clear that we look silly making a federal case out of every word that can be deliberately misconstrued. I am not trying to extend the life of this thing.

  21. I don’t want to do anything to take away from a terrific endorsement. But having said that, it was the wrong choice of words. Gays, lesbians, blacks, Hispanics, Asians, etc. have worked hard to educate people about how words and names can hurt. Let’s certainly not blow it out of proportion, but let’s also not sweep it under the rug just because we happen to like the context this time. If George W. Bush had used it, you might not be as forgiving. Please don’t tell me that I’m being too sensitive because that would be the typical bully response.

    Like I said, it was an inappropriate word, but let’s move on.

    From Merriam-Webster’s:
    Main Entry:
    Inflected Form(s):
    plural pansies
    Middle English pancy, pensee, from Middle French pensée, from pensée thought, from feminine of pensé, past participle of penser to think, from Latin pensare to ponder — more at pensive
    15th century

    1: a garden plant (Viola wittrockiana) derived chiefly from the hybridization of the European Johnny-jump-up (Viola tricolor) with other wild violets; also : its flower
    2 usually disparaging : a weak or effeminate man or boy usually disparaging : a male homosexual

  22. Katiebird,

    I saw Hillary on TV at rally in Indianapolis. That was around 1PM. I couldn’t believe she was already at another appearance after being in NC with the Gov. this morning.

    I think it’s great that Hillary is going on O’Reilly. She handled Olbermann and she’ll handle Bill O. I have total faith in her at this point. She never lets us down. A lot of people in NC and IN probably watch O’Reilly, and she might change their opinions of her.

  23. I’m starting to wonder if we need some sort of chattering policy?

    NOT REALLY (sigh).

    But, honestly — isn’t context everything?

  24. Thank you, 14Hill, for not giving into distraction. We’re not ignoring the meaning. We are ignoring the intent.

  25. Kbird: LOL! We’d have to hire hall monitors.

  26. My money is on what others have stated: the OFB launched an all-out attack. Obviously, combating homophobia is not why they expressed their “concern.”

    I, too, always thought of “pansy” as a punk who wilts like a dainty flower, rather than a pejorative (Honestly, never in my life have I heard it used to refer to gays). I doubt it’ll affect her. If the media tries to play it up though I expect there will be some “WTF?!” backlash.

    Quick Q: Does anyone think Obama lying through his teeth today again about Wright and the media spinning for him will work? God, I hope not.

  27. Davidson, you’re darn tootin! He gave the guy (or the church) how many thousands of dollars? And he’s not THAT into charity. That donation had to be a big deal for their family.

    I don’t care what anyone says about tithing — if you’re giving a church that much money, you know everything that’s going on there.

  28. The media sharks smell blood in the water.

    Buh-bye Barry!

  29. Since when are the OFB concerned about sexist remarks?

    I thought they approved of anything that wasn’t racist?

  30. myiq2xu, What have you heard?

  31. KB: Not just that, but Obama first lied about whether he even knew of Wright’s years’ old sermons–which is just nonsense, considering Wright was his spiritual mentor for 20 damn years–and then flip-flopped during his “race” speech. No one in the media called him on it.

    And now Obama makes it seem as if Wright’s recent comments are radically different from those previous sermons when all Wright did was defend those same sermons.

    Lastly, what did Obama ever do to confront Wright on his divisiveness? Obama presents himself as the Great Uniter and yet when it came to his own church, his own “family member,” he said and did nothing. Words are indeed powerful, but actions speak louder.

  32. kb: just the usual bloviating gasbags, but they are arguing whether Obama’s campaign is mortally wounded or not.

    Once they start talking about it . . .

  33. I can almost guarantee you that those supposedly outraged people making phone calls are NOT gay or lesbian. Trust me, most of us have heard far worse insults than that – and I don’t believe it was directed at us at all. These days, when someone calls me a dyke, I just say “thank you.” Most gay men I know would just laugh in disbelief if you called them a pansy, or would come back at you with a clever insult.

  34. Well, this week should be a defining test. I know that the whole STICKER issue is very important to me — that Hillary’s stuck with the campaign AND recovered against almost insurmountable odds.

    It will be very interesting to see if Obama has similar skills.

  35. Open Thread: today is my official birthday. Let’s just say that my number is higher than Bush’s approval rating.

  36. (singing>)

    Happy Birthday to you
      Happy Birthday to you
       Happy Birthday dear Paaaaaaat.

    Happy Birthday to yooooou.

    And many more!

  37. Are you having a Happy Birthday, Pat? I hope?

  38. SUSA: HRC is up 36 points in Kentucky.

  39. Pat,

    HAPPY BIRTHDAY! So you’re saying you’re older than 28.

    I just watched as much as I could stomach of Hardball. Tweety is going back and forth. He wants to save Barack’s candidacy, but at the same time, He knows perfectly well that Barack had to know the kinds of things Wright was saying in his sermons. As Tweety said, if his priest said “God d*mn America” in a sermon, people would be stopping each other in the grocery store to spread the word. So Chris doesn’t know what to think.

    Andrea Mitchell and that pollster guy with the reddish blonde hair–I forget his name at the moment–said that Obama’s campaign’s response time is way too slow. Yesterday they were avoiding the press when they should have been making a statement by late morning. They also said Obama may have been angry, but he never really shows any emotion to speak of, so how could you tell?

    Trust me, this is not over by any means.

  40. Pat, Happy Birthday!

    I’m quite sure the ages of virtually all Confluentians are higher than Bush’s approval ratings.

    Some (like mine) are MUCH higher.

  41. Easley meant nothing other than the flower metaphor; I guess he could have said wilting- what- tulip, daisy, black-eyed susan or whatever, The Clinton branch of the D-party is supportive of everyone, including gay folks. The Obama branch is populated by homophobes imho, My gay friends do not support O and mostly I’ve just seen puzzled looks about this “incident.” The O’campaign is trying to create Rev.Wright level catastrophe of this. They would have better luck converting a popcorn fart into Hurricane Katrina.

  42. Chuck Todd is the guy with Andrea Mitchell. They also said that Hillary has as much or more baggage as Barack, but she seems to know how to handle it better. Tweety tried to argue that Clinton is touchy, but the the other two weren’t buying it. Hillary is getting a reputation for being a tough cookie. I like that!

  43. Kind of off topic, but I just saw an ad by Richard Moore, dem primary candidate for governor. He accuses rival Bev Perdue of voting against an anti-KKK law (whatever that means), effectively calling her a KKK sympathizer. Now that, boys and girls, is going negative!

  44. As Tweety said, if his priest said “God d*mn America” in a sermon, people would be stopping each other in the grocery store to spread the word. So Chris doesn’t know what to think.

    Oh, Tweety knows what to think. It’s what to say that’s got him stumped.

  45. BB, And I think Tweety’s also mad that he has to watch his mouth about Chelsea. He thinks that means Hillary’s touchy.

  46. Thanks guys, I was just trying to lift the mood.

    Anyway I had a thought about this tit for tat: I think when Obama disavowed Rev Wright a few months ago and claimed he was not present and was dismayed by his comments that Wright knew he was lying. Then the media pounced and made Wright the subject of nightly discussions and ridicule. Wright, a proud man, decided on how he could set the record straight and get even at the same time. Thus the media blitz this week. I cannot think of another reason why Wright would do this.

    I felt sorry for Obama there for a minute when he came out today and again attempted to separate himself from Wright. But then I thought, how badly do you want something that you would sacrifice a friend, mentor, father figure this way?
    And considering that Wright has never exonerated or excused Obama for being absent thus reinforcing his claim he was not there, tells me that as much as his ego has been stroked for the attention, he is also sending a message that Obama is not for real.

  47. A peek at a pro-Barry blog revealed that his followers think the Wright controversy is a win-win for their leader.

  48. Hey, aren’t there some words and/or metaphors that we can all share in common, as a linguistic community?

    I’m a hetero white woman, and of the course of my life I have on occasion, in my internal dialogue, called myself a “pansy” in regard to my behavior in regard to certain situations, meaning I wimped out or wilted in the sun. And I have planted pansys in my garden because they are beautiful and give me pleasure.

    I in no way attribute this as a slur against the gay community. In fact some of the most courageous people I know happen to be gay and I would not think of “pansy” to describe them.

    What is this?

  49. Yeah, sorry, gay guy here and totally not offended. Did it make me groan? Yes, but other than that, big deal.

    Let’s remember that it was Hillary who gave the interview to the gay press in Philly promising to include out issues in her presidential agenda, and that it was Barry who was stumping with noted homophobe and bigot McClurkin not more than six months ago.

  50. of course that should read “our issues” in the above post.

  51. I think it’s a mistake for the OFB to ratchet up t6he “pansy” issue.

    It’s not going to push Rev. Wright off the stage (or under the bus) and by making an issue of it they draw more attention to it.

  52. Let’s start counting:
    1. He refused to attend the MLK tribute.
    2. He refused to attend the Tavis Smiley event.
    3. He refused to meet with the LBGT leaders.
    4. He refused to debate Hillary again.
    5. He refused to meet with the Chicago reporters (until he did not have a choice.)
    6. He refused to answer the reporter because he was eating his waffle.

    I may have missed a few other refusals.

  53. I think that they are going back to the same playbook as always. First it was the race card, you know insinuating that talking about LBJ and MLK was somehow racist. Now its the same thing, trying to play the gay card, portray Easley as a homophobe. In my opinion it is laughable. But as a gay man I can assure you, no matter how much they hate Clinton, the MSM is never going to stand up and feign shock over purported homophobia, so not to worry.

  54. I have no problems with whatever Hillary wants to do in this campaign, including visiting with toxic Bill. The woman has earned my utmost admiration in the way she has conducted herself in this campaign, with all the crap that’s been thrown at her, and she maintains her patience and is always using her brain. How fuckin lucky can we be: the first woman president who is knowledgable, intelligent, and well aware of things?

  55. what is “OFB”?

  56. Funny, but I always thought observing a man’s qualities as being femine *might* insult the man but I always figured it was much worst for those of us who are femine by nature.

    Just the same, this is pretty light weight stuff. You know, he could have immitated former presidents and then called THEM pansies. At least he didn’t do that.

  57. OFB = obama fan base

  58. @Pat Johnson: When John McCain, the man who voted against honoring MLK, shows up to respect the legacy of MLK on the anniversary of his death–in front of a hostile crowd–and the first serious black presidential contender does not, that is huge.

    Compare Barack’s public stance with regards to blacks versus Hillary’s with regards to women: in spite of largely benefiting from his blackness (until most recently), he keeps blacks at arms length; in spite of being the target of brutal misogyny, she remains a public and proud advocate for women.

    Oh, and happy birthday!

  59. Hey, i commented on the word and I was on this board as a Clinton supoorter before any of you showed up. 🙂

  60. the “obama fan base”

  61. …way late : )

  62. Thanks, Davidson! Hillary is one tough lady! He is toast because he portrayed himself as someone other than who he is. You cannot get away with that for long. The old expression: “to thine own self be true”. Perfect. And that other one: “we are who we have been waiting for”. Not so much.

  63. In the grand scheme of things, I’ll take an ill-spoken “pansy” over a Donnie “homosexuality is a curse!” McClurkin concert for BO. They’re just looking for something…ANYthing…to take the media spotlight off their very large Rev. Wright problem.

  64. Gary – no worries, I kinda thought so.

  65. OFB also means Obama fan boiz (aka the blogs we do not name)

    It occurs to me that we should expect some vicious attack on Hillary soon.

    That’s SOP for the Unity Pony when he’s in trouble.

  66. Yeah, except here’s where what we’ve said all along comes into play: Hillary is thoroughly vetted. Who’s BO going to dig up as an associate of HIllary’s, that hasn’t already been splashed all over the front of WashPost by Ken Starr?

    Here’s really why we’ve been right since day one: HRC is tough. Just how tough, I think the Obamanation had no idea.

  67. I am gay. Pansy is the equivalent of sissy. Nobody gets offended over sissy, although they really should, since it is sexist. But the Gov will have to say he apologizes, and Hillary will have to say she doesn’t condone slurs against gay people and then the Assemblies of God will complain that pansy has been usurped by gay people just like the nice word gay and then the election will be over and Hillary will be president.

  68. The buzz according to several blogs, e.g., Talkleft, No Quarter, and Taylor Marsh, is that there was an NC phone poll last night specifically to get voters reactions to the Rev. Wright appearances. It must have looked really bad for Obama, and that’s why he had to come out today and throw Wright under the bus.

  69. huntingdonepost – I like your timeline. 🙂

  70. Tweety and Andrea Mitchell Greenspan have just agreed that Obama has dealt with the issue but clearly and unequivocally denouncing Rev. Wright. Tweety actually wondered if Wright “did Obama a favor” by doing something so outrageous that Obama had no choice but to denounce him — who can criticize Obama for disloyalty to “a brother” now, says Tweety.

    Also applauded were Obama’s “emotional” response, although I thought Obama seemed pretty detached. He used words like “appalled” and “angry” and “saddened,” but his demeanor still reeked of “I have to talk about this stuff again?”

  71. OOPS. Here’s what the first sentence of my immediately preceding post:

    Tweety and Andrea Mitchell Greenspan have just agreed that Obama has dealt with the issue BY clearly and unequivocally denouncing Rev. Wright.

    Now Tweety is leading Jimmy Carter to agree that Obama has been very brave to denounce Rev. Wright. Tweety then eagerly asks, “So you say he is the nominee.” “I didn’t say that.” “So you think that the person with the most elected delegates wins?” “Well, no, in ‘extreme’ cases the SDs can decide something else.” “Are you afraid that Hillary will be like Ted Kennedy not shaking your hand at the convention?” “No.”

  72. litigatormom, I also had the misfortune of watching Hardball. President Carter wondered aloud how the young people and African Americans would feel if Obama did not become the nominee. He does know women can vote and have strong feelings for Hillary, right?

  73. Litigatormom,

    I thought Andrea Mitchell was much more equivocal about Obama’s response. Even though Tweety tried to prevent her, she said several times that his response was way too slow and he should have said something yesterday. Chuck Todd agreed and said that BO is always a day late in responding to things like this.
    Even Tweety said he doesn’t believe that Obama didn’t know about the things Wright said in the past.

  74. President Carter is worried about their feelings?! Jesus Christ! Someone get them a damn pillow!

    I am absolutely pissed that there are still supers and top Democrats who come out to support Obama after all he’s done, especially now. Ridiculous.

  75. bostonboomer:

    Yes, Mrs. Greenspan was more equivocal, but you could tell that she wants the story to go away. At least, that was my impression.

  76. Davidson, I don’t think he said “feelings” exactly, but I recall that he worried about young people and African Americans not being as excited for the nominee if its not Obama. Its just weird that he didn’t mention Hillary’s core groups.

    On Hardball, Chuck Todd said he doesn’t expect a word from Wright because it would be “bad for business” (I assume he’s talking about Wright’s book). Wouldn’t more publicity help with book sales? Also, does Wright care more about money as much as publicity and/or defending his reputation? I wonder if Wright will fight back or go away.

  77. Oh I forgot, there was good segment by the MSNBC African American anchor lady on Hardball. She said that she lived in Chicago for 10 years and people tell newcomers to Chicago on the Southside to go to two churches, Trinity or Apostolic, in order to meet new people in the community and network. The lady even said she visited the church 6 times when she first moved to Chicago ( I think she’s an Obama supporter but a sane one). That gives a background to Trinity.

    However, she said she didn’t hear any crazy sermons from Wright when she was there. But in other writings, Wright’s reputation as a firebrand was well known in Chicago so she may be glossing things over there.

  78. I visited my sister-in-law this weekend, we chatted about lots of stuff and then the discussion turned to politics. She is not as ‘liberal” as I, but she lives in Boston and is one of the women that handed Obama his hat!! (Being from Maryland, I must show respect.) When I said that I would not vote for Obama, she through the war, supreme court stuff at me and seemed surprised. Then, I told her that Obama’s labeling of the Clintons as racist., was my breaking point . I also noted that we may be the ones that make the DNC recognize the power of women, to the benefit of both our daughters and our sons. I am not sure I convinced her, but I got her thinking.

  79. Actually I think Obama was too fast to respond. He should have responded on Thursday. That way we could all joke about how it was a May Day distress call! That would have been fun. Or if he would have done it tomorrow it could have coincided with Vietnamese Liberation Day or Mexican Children’s Day. I am however proud of him for clarifying his position on International Dance Day, truly the greatest of days. Yesterday was the 63rd anniversary of Benito Mussolini’s death; that would have been insensitive to Italian fascist everywhere.

    Somehow I cannot see the media latching onto this one. I bet he did not mean anything by it. An apology and mental note to not do it again should be enough to forget about it. I never really thought much about the word pansy. Using emasculating words to degrade men is pretty common (and sexist). This is just one of those things that it would be silly to get caught up in.

  80. Ryan – that is FUNNY.

  81. Well actually, it is offensive. Essentially pansy is a word used to insult a man by implying he is like a woman.

  82. But what’s wrong with being like a woman?

  83. see, hillary is a tough lady…being in politics, she is expected not to put the citizens down in any way…

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: