• Tips gratefully accepted here. Thanks!:

  • Recent Comments

    riverdaughter on Last “Debate”: Anything could…
    riverdaughter on Last “Debate”: Anything could…
    riverdaughter on Last “Debate”: Anything could…
    riverdaughter on Eric Trump ruined my bakery.…
    MAG on Eric Trump ruined my bakery.…
    Ivory Bill Woodpecke… on If you don’t think Covid is a…
    riverdaughter on Simple WFH Office Etiquet…
    jmac on Simple WFH Office Etiquet…
    riverdaughter on Simple WFH Office Etiquet…
    alibe50 on Simple WFH Office Etiquet…
    riverdaughter on Simple WFH Office Etiquet…
    William on Simple WFH Office Etiquet…
    William on No slacking now, Pennsylv…
    Ivory Bill Woodpecke… on Leslie Stahl didn’t wear a mas…
    Ivory Bill Woodpecke… on Leslie Stahl didn’t wear a mas…
  • Categories


  • Tags

    abortion Add new tag Afghanistan Al Franken Anglachel Atrios bankers Barack Obama Bernie Sanders big pharma Bill Clinton cocktails Conflucians Say Dailykos Democratic Party Democrats Digby DNC Donald Trump Donna Brazile Economy Elizabeth Warren feminism Florida Fox News General Glenn Beck Glenn Greenwald Goldman Sachs health care Health Care Reform Hillary Clinton Howard Dean John Edwards John McCain Jon Corzine Karl Rove Matt Taibbi Media medicare Michelle Obama Michigan misogyny Mitt Romney Morning Edition Morning News Links Nancy Pelosi New Jersey news NO WE WON'T Obama Obamacare OccupyWallStreet occupy wall street Open thread Paul Krugman Politics Presidential Election 2008 PUMA racism Republicans research Sarah Palin sexism Single Payer snark Social Security Supreme Court Terry Gross Texas Tim Geithner unemployment Wall Street WikiLeaks women
  • Archives

  • History

  • RSS Paul Krugman: Conscience of a Liberal

  • The Confluence

    The Confluence

  • RSS Suburban Guerrilla

  • RSS Ian Welsh

  • Top Posts

RonK to Goldy’s Sister: If that’s not betrayal, what is?

Today at HorsesAss (an estimable local liberal blog that has more than its share of state and national victories to its credit), proprietor David Goldstein’s sister in PA guest-posts:

Seven months ago … I organized all of the women in my family for a photo of “Four generations of women for Hillary Clinton.” … Hillary was to be our first woman president, and my now adolescent daughters and I agreed with their cousins and aunts and grandmothers and great-grandmother that it was finally time.

… [BIG BUT]

… I wish the Clintons well and like many of their friends and allies I hope they don’t think I am betraying them, but I am voting for Barack Obama in the Pennsylvania primary.

I responded at length:

… You are betraying them, and profoundly.

You are endorsing “I’m Barack Obama, running for President and I approve this message. … Hillary Clinton will say anything to get elected.”

You are endorsing the candidate who claims the middle class lost ground during the Clinton years.

You are endorsing the candidate who successfully framed the Clintons on accusations of race-baiting, through an elaborately orchestrated race-baiting campaign of his own.

You are endorsing the candidate who later claimed in passive voice that racial tensions just “bubbled up” between the New Hampshire and South Carolina primaries … and who preposterously asserted that America can’t make any progress on jobs, health or education without his admittedly incremental contribution to America’s admittedly residual racial divide … who frames his campaign in grossly counterfeit histories of the civil rights movement of the 60’s, the Reagan years of the 80’s and the Clinton/Gingrich years of the 90’s … who inspired you with a speech that claims a Clinton presidency would leave us in racial “stalemate” analogous to the slave state versus free state stalemate at the Constitutional Convention.

You are endorsing the candidate who gave Hillary the finger last week in Raleigh NC.

You are endorsing the candidate who says Hillary represents the status quo, and whose surrogates constantly drum the message that both Clintons entire lives in public service have been motivated solely by self-interest.

You are endorsing the candidate who claims Hillary has been bought by special interests … “bought” for a fraction of a percent of her campaign budget (an amount smaller than lobbyist contributions to his own presidential exploratory committees and FEC-exempt expenditures). That’s the same candidate who with no track record in major-league politics claims he can end politics as we know it simply by restricting a few hundredths of one percent of federal lobbyist budgets.

You are endorsing the candidate whose chief adviser on entitlements tried to resuscitate Bush’s Social Security privatization initiative in 2005 after the netroots and unions joined forces to beat it to death … whose chief health care adviser believes the push for universal coverage is misplaced (along with virtually all mainstream progressive health care concerns) … whose Chicago/DLC/neoliberal chief adviser on trade says “there is nobody more in favor of open markets than me”, and believes our 900-page trade agreements should be reduced to a libertarian two pages each.

You are endorsing the candidate who promises you a whole new world, but avoids describing it or disclosing how he will deliver it — whose entire appeal rests on the premise that special interests and partisan opponents will evaporate when he takes the oath of office.

You are endorsing the candidate whose appeal depends largely on his endorsement of traditional talk radio tropes of the Arkansas Project.

You are endorsing the candidate of make-believe — who looks at governance the way a 12-year-old looks at Playboy — over the candidate who has seen the world as it is, and is prepared to govern there.

If that’s not betrayal enough, we could get into the misogynist double standards, but I think you get my drift. All this betrayals are MINOR compared to the betrayals of hope and trust and progressive possibilities that an Obama presidency would bring … dashed hopes that would immunize two generations against Hope itself, doing for the Democratic/Progressive alliance just as much as Herbert Hoover did for Republicans and Conservatives.

Here’s another betrayal. You’re probably old enough to remember when women beat down the Equal Rights Amendment. If this uncommonly qualified, uncommonly equipped woman at an uncommonly opportune time is beaten down by your double standards, we will not live to see any woman taken seriously for POTUS … and prospects are dim for our daughters and nieces and granddaughters.

But you like the goosebumps and the lines engineered to trigger sentimental tears? So do I, even as I recognize the cheap tricks that cheap tricksters use to evoke them. Fine. Go your way, and I’ll go mine.

Just do me one favor. I’ve done my time, sweeping up after LBJ’s war, and Nixon’s perfidies, and the idealists who brought down Carter and gave us twelve years of Reagan/Bush, and idealists who brought down Clinton and gave us six years of Gingrich/Delay and eight years of Bush.

I will stop Obama before the convention if I can, and after the convention if I have to. If that means supporting McCain, so be it. If that means backing an independent candidate in a key state and throwing the election into the House of Representatives, so be it.

If you do get your Unity Pony — along with the pro-lifers, the Naderites, the Friedmanites, the Lieberman Democrats, the Bloombergers, the theocrats, the Federalist Society and everybody else who thinks Obama is their free ride — just don’t expect me to sweep up after it. I’ll do what good I can in other pursuits, including deep reflection on the defects of media-age democracy that re-elected Bush, and that enabled a major faction of a major party to fall for Obama.

48 Responses

  1. She wishes the Clintons well? Actually, only one Clinton is running. With women like these, who needs men?

  2. And she’s endorsing the candidate with an unimaginably thin resume for the most important job in the world.

    What are his accomplishments and skills?
    What is his job experience?

    And she’s endorsing the candidate who doesn’t believe everyone should have access to health care.

    How many of the people he’s met in Pennsylvania don’t have Health Insurance?
    What does he think will happen to those who get cancer?

  3. Whoa! I guess you told her. I happen to agree with every word, ronk. Too bad we can’t replace some stupid, Harvard sociologists OP/ED in the NYTimes with something like this.

  4. ronk! Wonderful. Tell her there are a lot of other ronks out here, too.

  5. Wonderful!

    If picture are made to capture events, this post was written to perfectly capture my feelings.

    Great job.

  6. I watched a segment on ABC News tonight and was left wondering. A young mother who is supposedly concerned about how her family was going to have enough to get the kids through college, originally supported HC, but now likes BO because he “seems more natural” or something like that. An older, former HC woman supported is now going with BO because she is not sure she likes how HC handled some of her previous life crisis’. What, she’s mad because she didn’t dump Bill ten years ago?

    I just don’t get this BO reality distortion field – ignored it during the Potomac Primaries. My wife doesn’t get it either. We really are left wondering what it is some voters are looking for in a party candidate.

    If he is the party’s candidate, considering his awful job performance in the Senate, his highly questionable associations, his elitist behavior, and the fact that the “Change” schtick doesn’t work on me, particularly if it is coming from a “poser”, I may just have to vote down ticket only come November.

  7. Sometimes I feel like drinking the kool-aid, just to see what color the sky is in their world.

  8. RonK,

    How depressing. hopefully, the cousins and aunts had more common sense than Goldy’s sister. Idjit.

  9. Wow! I’m impressed. That is one righteous rant, and based on real facts too. Thank you, RonK. And, BTW, you brought a tear to my eye.

  10. I just don’t get it. I just don’t get it.

  11. myiq2xu, if you took a swig of the koolaid, I bet you wouldn’t be able to swallow it.

  12. Ronk, that was truly excellent! it all seems so obvious – what are people thinking?

    and good point Melanie. if I were switching my vote from Barack to Hillary, would I wish “the Obamas” well, ot just the one who’s running?

    again Ronk, outstanding. I hope you’re posting that everywhere.

  13. KO time.

    May those initials be an omen that she wins by a KO!

    I am nervous.

    Here she is!

  14. Obama is the Mighty Quinn and all the pigeons have run to him – that’s all it is. This is what happens when a narcissistic personality gets a hold of a community. Those of us who are vulnerable to narcissistic personality types (which is most of us) just want nothing more than to feel special alongside the special one.

    Here’s a really raucous Dylan/Band performance of The Might Quinn from 1969. No videotaped performance but one heck of a dirty rock performance.

  15. Okay, let’s try this link.

  16. Oh oh oh oh oh oh ohhhhh, Ron….

    I am stunned at the vehemence of your reaction…have you been saving this up or have I simply missed other comprehensive variations on theme?

    It’s so MADDENING to try to follow the thought processes of some folks. Can’t exactly call it logic. And certainly not in this case.

    I’m with you on the prevention front…this candidate cannot be our president. Can. Not.

    This campaign is far from over…and nothing is final until the convention RATIFIES (or not) what delegates say they will do…..so,

    I hope Hil and Bill are talking to Al and the DLC about the nuclear option if push comes to shove…that is, if it looks like Obama will actually get the votes for the nomination.
    Strikes me that’s the only way to save the Party and elect a Democratic president after this incredibly toxic campaign where the electability of both Obama and Clinton are now in serious doubt.

    Hard to believe but I am beginning to think…perhaps only Gore can save us from ourselves.

    Gore/Clinton. Sigh….

    Works for me.

  17. oldpro — As a compromise candidate, do you suppose we can get THIS GUY?

  18. I’m going to have a hard time concentrating tomorrow. Go PA for Hillary!!!

  19. LOL, Ron…..

    I’m putting you in charge no matter HOW wacky you turn out to be. That’s because I’m pretty close to giving up on the national Democrats after investing 50 years in D activism and I’m becoming a reactionary…for fun, if not for profit!

  20. Yeah, perhaps Ted Kennedy challenged and doomed Carter’s chances, and is mad at Clintons b/c how dare anyone overshadow his family legacy?

    What a&ses.

    Here is what I see. Barack Obama has manufactured a movement. I read an article on how they aggressivly pushed people to come to rallies. So they can say, he is generating excitement. From Day One, this has been a PR relationship. From Day One, his politics was based on being anti-Hillary.

    What are behind media’s worship of him? Well, a few things. 1) misogeny is behind their Hillary hatred, and 2) Obama is anti-Hillary. He bashes her and allows them to do the same. 3) they are afriad that this is the next big thing. like the next rock and roll, and they are terribly afriad of not getting it, and proving themselves to be hopelessly old.

    This election season has gone on for one year and half. During this time, NO ONE has been able to explain to me what Obama brings to the table. It is utterly shameful that he has compared himself to men like Lincoln, MLK, and Bobby Kennedy. I think it was a hack reporter who asked Hillary, “well, Lincoln didn’t have much experience either”, sort of like Bush who said, “Lincoln also fired his generals”, or saying, “well, Washington lost a few battles”. Let me make something clear to media IDIOTS: Just because one uneducated man once made a great discovery in science, you don’t devalue science education. There are anomolies, exceptions from the norm. Either those men had many other great characters traits (which you intentionally omit and gloss over), or in case of Lincoln, it was really the grace of God for a nation that needed him. Or to put it another way if you like, it was like winning the lottery once.

    Even Lincoln (and you guys know far better than me) proved his open mind and selfless nature way before he was president.

    So media, please don’t insult us by comparing idiots like Bush and Obama to Lincoln. Thank you.

  21. No, no, Senator Clinton’s electability is just fine, thanks. Better than it was six months ago.

    It’s the Prom King’s electability — his ongoing foot-in-mouth disease, his gaffes, his cowardice — that is now in doubt, having replaced the whole coronation inevitability thing.

    That must hurt. But — if he can’t stand he heat, he should stop frying his arugula and get out of the kitchen.

  22. apologies for the mistakes. I should really proof-read before hitting submit.

  23. ghost2,

    That was great. I didn’t even notice any mistakes.

  24. Well, Ghost2…. I don’t think Obama manufactured the movement. He was drafted…convinced…that he was ‘the one’….the one to get rid of the Clintons once and for all. Who else could pry the AA vote away from a Clinton? Only a black candidate could make the racism charge stick with enough clueless types…and unless you could do that, you couldn’t beat Hillary in the D primary.

    The whole reason for the Obama anti-Clinton campaign is so utterly cynical and brazen…you named it with Teddy K…now add in Kerry, Daschle (and his lobbyist K-St. wife), Durbin and the Daley machine…hire Axelrod and whoopee! Connections and all the lists and fundraisers and entre a condidate would ever need.

    If it works and if he could ever be elected, what do they get? A president who owes them everything…not unlike a former Texan who doesn’t really run the show. If it worked for Rove/Cheney, why not Daschle/Kerry/Kennedy?

    Passing the torch my eye. It’s not Teddy’s to pass.

  25. “. This is what happens when a narcissistic personality gets a hold of a community” posted above.

    I have wanted to say this over and over but b/c I am in the business, didn’t want to label. Now it has been said, I wholeheartedly endorse this diagnosis. Women are particularly susceptible to this personality when she/he wants to charm. That why they weep at his “wonderful speeches”.

    If he is the nominee, color me a homebound for the day. Won’t vote for him and won’t vote downticket either

  26. ronk: “I will stop Obama before the convention if I can, and after the convention if I have to…”

    hear, hear

  27. I agree with all of it until the end. I’d take an unprepared, backstabbing, play-you-like-a-marionette, reverse-race-baiting, and yes, even misogynist Barack Obama over a prepared (for what?), stand-up (in whose dreams?) Crazypants John McCain. No “it’s the Supreme Court, stupid!” arguments here–I think that’s overrated–just that I’m tired of the Iraq war.

  28. Hey RonK: I took a look at that site – ‘close to home’ and all. Wow. I don’t know if it is the kind of neighborhood I’d want to live in… not safe to walk without a bunch of friends.

  29. I’m writing in Hillary Clinton and then voting for Christine Gregoire. I can’t afford to stay home.

  30. I don’t trust Obama on judicial picks, especially the Supreme Court. He’s been putting out an awful lot of dog whistles to the “pro-lifers.” And until an aide pointed out the potential political consequences, Obama was just swell about voting for Roberts ’cause he thought Roberts was smart.

  31. O/T (sorry)

    Sen. Obama dodging the press for the past 11 days. Via TalkLeft to CNN:

    http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/04/21/obama-avoids-media-in-final-days-of-pa/

  32. Lost Clown: I’ll vote for Gregoire too and I’d consider a write in for Hillary if her name isn’t listed on my ballot.

  33. No, Ohio, nothing to be sorry for. Good point, and so concise! 🙂

  34. sister of ye: I completely agree about the dog whistles to anti-choice folks. I don’t see anything in BO’s record or demeanor to make me feel like he would protect the existing rights of women – let alone do anything to improve our situation.

  35. SO GLAD to have found your blog. Loved this article, thank you RonK. I’m very proud that my 80-year-old mother AND my 16-year-old daughter are solidly with me behind Hillary (some young people actually do have powers of critical thinking) along with, I’m glad to report, my 49-year-old husband and my 19-year-old son. I’m reporting to my first day of volunteering at our new local Hillary office (in Oregon), and can’t wait to see her clean up in Pennsylvania tomorrow night.

  36. Gregoire will have to win my vote. I busted my ass bringing her 2004 win back from the dead — none of which would have been necessary if her primary opponent hadn’t sanctioned a “racial sensitivity” frame-up.

    Also, Gregoire’s multi-term game plan was to restore trust in government first, and enact progressive reforms later. There’s a logic to that — trust in government is the very foundation of progressive governance.

    But then she gets the goosebumps and endorses Obama — who framed Hillary for racial insensitivity, who routinely disparages government ( “Washington” ) like a hardcore conservative populist, and whose bubble-of-hope implosion would destroy trust on an unprecedented scale.

  37. LOL. some of my close family knows some of Mr L’s family, maybe I can talk him into it 🙂

  38. Sorry, not trying to make a joke of this. I’m in a state of despair about what’s happening, actually. Trying very hard on a daily basis not to shoot myself in the foot by alienating friends and colleages over it.

  39. RonK: the obama endorsement did make me think the worst, but I also figure if I write in Hillary (or worse) then at least I can vote all D’s down ticket. The alternative wasn’t all that impressive last time and I’m pretty sure he won’t be better with age.

  40. I’m so disgusted with the Democratic Party and with “progressives” these days, I honestly could not possibly care less about whether or not we win the White House. I don’t want to win if it means Obama will be the President. I loathe and despise his entire vile and disgusting manner of getting there; I equally loathe and despise his surrogates and their vile smears of Democratic former presidents; I loathe and despise the manufactured “hope” and “change” theatre which has sucked the brains out of supporters.

    Barack Obama is a Narcissist. It is perfectly clear that this man has the emotional maturity of G.W. Bush, and will, in the end, become a petulant dictator, vengeful when he is thwarted in his self-serving desires if he becomes the President. He is unstable emotionally; his needs are paramount to him; he doesn’t have the temperament for governance; as with all narcissists, it’s all about winning adulation. With his supporters, it’s apparently all about him being “uniquely qualified” to be president “because he’s black.” An argument that is shocking for it’s definitive RACISM. Who knew? Democrats have turned out to the be party of racists, liars, and fools.

    I’m left without a party. I won’t join the Republican Party; but I’ve been all but abandoned by the Democratic Party. So, like I said, I don’t give a damn if the Democrats win. If Obama’s the nominee, I’m not voting. Not “downticket,” not any ticket. I won’t collude in disenfranchising Florida–where I once was a Democratic Party Precinct Chair–or Michigan. I won’t be party to threats to superdelegates, and I certainly won’t be a party to racist reasons to vote for a candidate, or racist “dog-whistle” campaigns. I won’t be a party to smearing former Democratic Party Presidents. I won’t be party to right-wing talking points in “dog-whistle” political ploys meant to hint to voters that the Democratic Party won’t stand by it’s platform on abortion, on Social Security, on free-trade, or on foreign policy issues.

    Obama supporters are naive in the extreme. And, they will be disappointed in their candidate should he win the nomination. They will wonder how they were ever so deluded. But, it will be too late to save this party and too late to save this country. They’ll remember this campaign for the rest of their lives, because they’ll be challenged for the rest of their lives by economic deprivation. I won’t suffer for it; I’m older, economically secure, and no matter who wins the White House or Congress/Senate races, I will survive quite well, thanks. But, younger voters will rue the day they ever supported Barack obama. He will impact their lives in ways they cannot foresee today.

    I say, let them eat cake.

  41. Minor point of correction. You wrote:

    “You are endorsing the candidate who claims the middle class lost ground during the Clinton years.”

    The Middle Class DID lose ground during the Clinton years. Stagnation in real wages among the middle and lower classes has been a fact since the early 70s. In other words, the middle class lost ground during the Ford Administration, the Carter Administration, the Reagan Administration, the Bush I Administration, the Clinton Administration and the Bush II Administration. In the Clinton years, the Middle and Lower classes just lost ground a fraction more slowly.

    Please see the work of David Cay Johnston for further elaboration.

    This is not a winning argument for you. There is nothing to indicate that either of the Senators running for the Democratic nomination (let alone McCain) will do anything to reverse this decades-long trend.

    You’ve indicated you’ll vote for the McCainChurian McCaindidate in order to “stop” Barrack Obama. You’ll pardon me, please, if that “stop Obama” language gives me the cold sweats. Back in 1962 there were a lot of wacko right-wing types who felt it was necessary to “stop” Jack Kennedy. A few years later, after JFK had been “stopped,” they talked about the need to “stop” Dr. King. After he got “stopped,” they talked about the need to “stop” Bobby. Bobby got “stopped,” too.

    You may not like it, but that’s where your language took me. I hope that, if you really have the experience you claim in tha era, you re-think your choice of words and perhaps recast them..

    Me, I’m a Democrat. I’ll support my party’s nominee in the general election. After all either Senator Clinton OR Senator Obama would make a far better president than Grampa Munster McCain.

    If you insist on not supporting your party’s nominee, why not just stay home in November and at least not be part of the problem?

  42. Okay, I want someone to tell me something I’ve been trying to figure out for months, please.
    What is it about Obama that everyone seems to be drawn to? That makes people swoon? Where is this charisma that I obviously can’t see?
    I’ve watched him in debates and honestly, his voice puts me to sleep. I’ve watched him make speeches, and he just reminds me of all of those T.V. preachers who fleece old people out of their money by promising to cure their arthritis if they buy some little trinket that he’s blessed.
    Maybe I can’t see it, because I was born with a cynical, suspicious nature.
    I’m with you, if Obama is our nominee for President, I will stand outside the polls all day waving a McCain sign to keep him from being elected.
    Adolf Hitler was a charismatic leader, too.

  43. […] RonK to Goldy’s Sister: If that’s not betrayal, what is? (by ronkseattle at The Confluence) [To an Obama supporter:] You are endorsing “I’m Barack Obama, running for President and I approve this message. … Hillary Clinton will say anything to get elected.” […]

  44. […] RonK to Goldy’s Sister: If that’s not betrayal, what is? (by ronkseattle at The Confluence) [To an Obama supporter:] You are endorsing “I’m Barack Obama, running for President and I approve this message. … Hillary Clinton will say anything to get elected.” […]

  45. Ron….the irony of Chris’ endorsement of Obama struck me, too. I can only imagine that the memory of the Ron Sims dustup and the closeness of the Rossi vote convinced her to innoculate herself against more of the same by endorsing Obama.

    Not sure I wouldn’t have done the same if it were me, seeing the viciousness of so many Obamacans in seeking to turn around any AA superdelegates supporting Hillary. Mob politics.

    I accept her decision. She has been an outstanding governor and Rossi would be…well…pathetic……..not to mention, corrupt.

    Abandoning Gregoire is too high a price to pay…for me.

  46. 300,000 HITS!!!!!!!!

    We should pledge to Hillary against that number….HA, don’t I wish I could.

    Congratulations, riverdaughter and friends.

  47. Lucinda:

    [Godwin prattle elided — RonK]

    You want an answer? Here’s one: I have no idea what Obama’s draw is, any more than I understand Hillary’s. I saw Obama speak in Charleston, WV a couple of years ago, met him and have yet to comprehend his draw. He was achingly dull.

    The best I can figure is that America has gone for so long without anyone who can deliver something approaching inspiring oratory that, to them, Obama sounds inspiring. After all, most of America can tell you that Ronnie Raygun was “The Great Communicator.” Barf.

    The same thing goes for Hillary. She’s nice in person, but has the public demeanor of soda pop gone flat. She’s obviously highly intelligent but, like Obama, doesn’t seem to understand that following George Bush is going to require major surgery, and not a band-aid that leaves our corporatocracy in place..

    Obama and Clinton are a pair of unreconstructed corporatists who each have a significant portion of the ostensibly democratic electorate convinced they’re the best thing since sliced golfballs. Beats the heck outta me. We had inspiring candidates in the beginning of the race, but the MSM ran them off the stage because they wanted a two-horse race.

    Since, as a result, there aren’t any liberals running anymore, I’ve chosen to support my party’s nominee, be it Clinton OR Obama, against the REAL problem, namely John McCainChurian McCaindidate and desperately try to get the OMG folks who are fanactically attached to either candidate to do the same.

    Otherwise, by each side poisoning the well for the other, we dramatically raise the specter of “President McCain” come next January. He, in turn, will appoint Supreme Court justices who will be just to the right of ScaLito, thereby screwing up America not just for me, but for my great-grandchildren as yet undreamt of. That, I am not prepared to face. Hence, my focus on pointing out the poison that is the real problem, to-wit: McCain.

    Will that do for an answer?

  48. [Godwinish subthread elided — RonK]

Comments are closed.

%d bloggers like this: