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Afternoon Roundup: The Kids Are Not Alright

There is something seriously wrong with the Obamaphiles.  I don’t think I was too far off back in January when I said they were going all Jihad on the non-Obama supporters.  They are determined to kill us off, screaming “Die!, Die!, Die!” until we are no more.  What is fueling this is anybody’s guess.  But as far back as my early DKos days, I had the feeling that if our coalition were destroyed, it would happen from within.  Maybe the fault lines were already there: young indebted vs old entitled, libertarians vs New Dealers, educated vs working class, small town vs, urban.  But I have a sneaky suspicion that the rift was facilitated by outside forces infiltrating us and making trouble as well as entrenched party members seizing possibly their only opportunity to wrest power away from the politically strong and saddling the politically weak with their agenda.

Nevertheless, it looks like the rational bloggers are waking up to what has become a bizarre pathology in the blogosphere.  The DNC is forewarned to get control of this situation as quickly as possible.  Obama can’t win without half of the Democratic Party.  And his supporters are going to doom him, wittingly or not, if they succeed in making us politically irrelevant.  We’re not kidding, Howard.  Do something.  NOW!

Here are the dead canaries:

And now a little word to Obamaphiles.  Sometimes, people get carried away.  We understand.  We’ve had our share of that.  But there comes a time when getting carried away has real life consequences.  We are at that point now.  Now, I’m willing to get over it, because, quite frankly, I can’t take you guys seriously anymore.  The absurdity is beyond bizzare.  Of course, this blog would be nothing without you.  There’s a lot of good material.  But I’m getting off topic.  What I’m trying to say is I don’t know what’s going on in your heads but I would like to offer you a place to talk about it.  And Conflucians, if any Obama supporter takes us up on this offer, please try not to be judgmental.  Just listen.  (Of course, anything overtly negative will be deleted)  Just tell us what it is you are really thinking about us.  Because unless you can get hold of whatever has gotten out of control, you are dooming ALL of us, yourselves included.

This is an open thread.

66 Responses

  1. hillary/obama : the only solution

    thanks for what you do. if it werent for you, talk left and correntwire, i dont know what i’d do

  2. isaac: If that’s what it takes, we will try to wrap our minds around it.
    Make yourself at home.

  3. I just recieved this letter from Chris Bowers. I had forgotten that I had subscribed to BlogPac.

    Dear Lisa,

    Did you watch the Democratic debate on ABC last night, moderated by Charles Gibson and George Stephanopolous? I did, and it left me with more questions about ABC and the moderates than about Senator Clinton or Senator Obama.

    For one thing, aren’t these debates supposed to be about the issues voters feel are most important? The most recent national priorities poll from ABC News listed the economy, the war in Iraq, health care, and corruption in government as the top issues for voters. Instead, we heard about flag pins, airports in Bosnia, the weather underground, and other tabloid headlines.

    Also, George Stephanopolous apparently took notes from Sean Hannity on at least one question. How many of the fifteen questions asked at the debate were written by Democratic-hating, conservative radio pundits?

    We need to ask ABC, Gibson and Stephanopolous these and other questions about the deabte last night. You can do so here. The way I see it, if ABC can spend two hours attacking Democrats on national television, we need to spend a minute or two letting them know how we feel. Write to ABC News now, and ask them some questions about last night’s debate.

    In solidarity,

    Chris Bowers, BlogPac

    My Reply:

    When you’re fighting the media you should be fighting
    for ALL Dems, not just your favorite candidate
    otherwise you come off as a whiner.

    Why didn’t these types of questions bug you when they
    peppered Senator Clinton with them or are you one of
    those Bloggers who don’t think that Senator Clinton is
    a real Democrat.

    Charlie Gibson and George Stephonapolis did your
    candidate a favor. They gave him a taste of what’s
    going to come from the Republicans when the primary is
    over so he can start boning up on their tricks now.

    Fight for every Dem or quit your bitchin.

    Lisa Dawn

    After I replied I realized that he was fighting for both Dems, but only after his candidate had been attacked so i guess the gist of my reply is still relevant. We could have used something from him like this say, ohh, about five months ago…

  4. I second the emotion, isaac!

    Thank you, riverdaughter. I’m very grateful to have found you and the Conflucians. You all have re-energized me.

    Go Hillary!

  5. Isn’t it nice of “former” Republicans like k0s and John Cole to leave their sinking ship, join our party, and then start trying to kick us out?

  6. I remember growing up hearing about how all the “evil” rock music had subliminal messages if you played them backward. I think I recall there was even a Saved By the Bell episode about subliminal messaging in music. I wonder if there are any messages encoded in some of those pro-Obama songs/chants.

    Yes, I’m kidding. Kidding…on the square. Haha.

  7. lisadwan: I’m with you. I will never forget when they asked Dennis Kucinich that UFO question. That had to be the most humiliating moment of the entire primary season. I honestly don’t think they’ve gone lower than that. It was an outrage. Yeah it bothers me when Hillary gets wedgie questions but she’s a big girl and she knew what she was getting into. She has a right to ask them to level the playing field a bit but other than that, she can handle it. She won’t make any major slip ups. But if SHE can do it, shouldn’t we expect HIM to as well? The media is not our friend. It’s one of the givens of the election season. It is unwise to ever consider them so. They can’t be used for your good either because they will use it against you later. Obama needs to learn this, possibly the hard way. And anyway, Chris *is* too late.

  8. gqm: I think it’s worth some serious investigation. They certainly know the which buttons to push.

  9. I’m so sad about all this. I miss the comraderie at Baby Blue. It just came apart. Why? People I like (love, even) became hateful seemingly out of nowhere.

    I admire riverdaughter and the other Conflucians who toughed it out for so long at kos. I shouldn’t be such a wimp.

    It’s important to start talking to each other again. Our country is literally at stake right now.

    Hillary ’08

  10. There has been a recent spotting of actual journalism. At the University of Pennsylvania, the independent student newspaper has endorsed Hillary, with a well reasoned editorial, which can be found at http://nomoreapples.blogspot.com/

    No Obama bashing there, just good old-fashioned common sense — my favorite part is something like: she doesn’t just tell us yes we can, she tells us how we can.

  11. http://www.openleft.com/showComment.do;jsessionid=61F771AE63CEEA520EA57876B04F1600?commentId=58802

    This commenter , Super Delegate, at Open Left says what I would say, and says it well. Also seems to have the fortitude to stick it out amid troll ratings, etc.

    First point is that what ABC did to Obama last night (with a few to Hillary) will happen ten fold in the general election.

    Kind of long, but a good read.

  12. just came in … did dean say SDs had to pick 1 ? .. saw it on cnn when my hands were full & with no volume on …lol ..

    does anyone know

  13. http://mediamatters.org/columns/200804160002

    Eric Boehlert’s comment this week is outstanding–about our scourge, Chris Matthews, and ,i>how misogyny has made him the Hot Political “Journalist” of this campaign so far.

    Which, Boehlert points out, means political journalism is now a farce.

    This is so terribly sad–that his juvenile and ugly manner of sexist comments has given him an 8000 word story in the The NYTimes Magazine and an arrogant Cheshire Cat grinning photo on the cover.

    Boehlert wrote a piece a short while ago warning the left blogosphere that, as we all know, the MCM is not their friend even if it was fluffling The Precious One. The MCM hunts all Dems eventually.–and the blogs should go after the MCM when it is unfair to any Dem.

    Anyway, great column–but it may harsh your remaining buzz from the strong, clear, vibrant way Hillary handled the debate.

    It was just so clear that she thrives on trying to find a way to solve problems. A commenter I came across said that the PA university paper’s endorsement of Hillary could be boiled down to ” She says, Yes, we can, and then tells us how we can.”

  14. Well said. The attempt to marginalize us is going to backfire eventually. Change works best when you reach out to all alliances to find common ground. When women sit back and watch another woman battered as Hillary has been it merely strengthens that steel that resides in our spines. Where was the outrage when she was made fun of on a personal level? Why didn’t Obama take the lead and demand that his supporters end these sexists attacks against a worthy opponent and let the issues become the sounding board. This is exactly when I tuned him out. He had the opportunity to show us just what his “change” message was all about and he chose to remain silent. I am not sure just who his blogger supporters are but it became evident through their postings that they were there merely to hurl insults and not to offer a rationale for their candidate. The MSM did not help as they went so far out of the way early on in their bias. It became perfunctory.

    What we need is a national commission for women candidates who will be there at all times to monitor election coverage going forward and to ensure that fairness and the issues dominate the dialogue. So far, with the exception of these type of blogs that offer a refuge from the slanted bias we have seen on other political blogs, there has been silence. The blogosphere will continue to grow over the next 4 years as the popular place for opinion. At a grassroots level we can make this happen. I nominate Rivedaughter as chairperson. Any seconds?

  15. What happens when Kennedy, Kerry, and Patrick meet with MA women constituents (overwhelmingly Clinton supporters of course)? Found out in this article.

    Still, no satisfaction for Clinton’s Sisterhood


    Their constituents want Florida and MI to count and rest assured Kerry and Patrick relayed their “concerns” to the Obama campaign (except for Kennedy, he says he cares more about getting out of Iraq – can’t he care about both? its not like the Senate is doing anything on the Iraq War).

    Go and read the article.

  16. You must simply look at the latest SUSA matchup numbers.
    I am visiting Republican sites.There is NO DOUBT in their minds that McCain can beat Obama, who is emerging as the weaker candidate. SUSA matchups lean in that direction. Their internal polling is showing it.

    They don’t think they can beat Hillary, even tho that might be a squeaker.

  17. Obamismo is Stalinism for Unitarians, no offense to real Unitarians (or Stalinists). The cult of personality, the need for converts to make public denunciation of past errors (unless they’re superdelegates or other high politicos, in which case no explanation is necessary), the need to crush your enemies even though you say they’re finished anyway. Oh, and let’s just say “cult of personality” twice, because that’s the Alpha and Omega. There’s absolutely nothing weird or even alarming in their policies, insofar as they have any; they’re weird and alarming because of their conception of politics, which is lethal (or at least seeks to be) against us even as it’s destined to come apart like a cheap suit once it faces genuine reactionaries.

  18. choice snippet from the Globe article:

    “The men – all Barack Obama supporters in a state that went for Clinton on primary day – said they believe in fairness, but not, necessarily, in counting votes in other states where Clinton claims victory.”

    Because its not fair to Obama that we have to count all the votes. Either revote the two states or keep the original results (or mix and match). These states should not be disenfranchised.

  19. WS — that’s one of the best descriptions of how I feel about the MI & FL situation that I’ve read in a regular newspaper. It’s really impressive that those women actually got to talk to those Officials.

    And it’s horrible that they’ll be brushed off.

  20. KB, could you, rd, or anyone else front page the article with commentary? I can’t believe that Democrats would even hedge on counting people’s votes.

  21. Hey all,

    I just started reading this blog so hopefully my comments aren’t off base, if so, I apologise.

    When I started reading the media coverage on the US elections, I was in favour of Hillary. I have spent a lot of time in Africa and I thought having a female president of the States might help further women’s rights in places like that. But after watching the debates and reading the coverage, I decided if I could vote, I would definitely vote for Obama. I feel like Obama is more direct than Clinton, and comes across as more natural, articulate and genuine. Clinton strikes me as someone who is chasing the presidency more for the sake of her own ambition than anything else. While obviously personal ambition is a major factor in any presidential candidate, I feel like Hillary would put herself before her country, and I don’t feel that way about Obama. I think she also has trouble admitting her mistakes, and is inclined to deliberately lie, and I think her campaign is inclined to hinge on the trivial and sensationalist, and is quick to go negative. While the Obama camp is certainly guilty of that too at times I feel like the overall intention has more integrity and tends to stay focussed on the real issues.

    I’m a Canadian who travels a lot, I work in the UK and Canada, and I am currently living in Argentina. I don’t live in the States and can’t vote, this is just something I’m interested in (obviously the president of the US has consequences to non-US citizens). To most of the people I meet outside the States, any intelligent and articulate Bush replacement would be a relief, McCain included, as I’m guessing a lot of you guys feel too, but my impression from reading the Canadian, British and Argentinian press is that a lot of the world is crossing it’s fingers for Obama. Personally, if Obama gets in I will seriously consider taking my company to the States, something I’ve avoided doing while Bush is in power. If Clinton gets in, I’ll be waiting to see what happens before I contribute to the US economy.

  22. Pat Johnson, on April 17th, 2008 at 6:37 pm Said:
    The blogosphere will continue to grow over the next 4 years as the popular place for opinion. At a grassroots level we can make this happen. I nominate Rivedaughter as chairperson. Any seconds?

    I second that motion.

  23. lisa – great comments

  24. Pat Johnson–I would , so course, nominate RD for any and everything. With respect to women candidates, we look at what the media, the Democrats and painfully what women Democrats have done to Hillary and we can understand why women are reluctant to run. It is not about policies it is about discrimination. Matt Stoller has a post up at Openleft. It sites a statistic from EMILY’S List that in 2006, Democratic House candidates who happened to be men won 95% of the time, while candidates who happened to be women won 11% of the time. How can we wonder why our party is so messed up??

    I am Catholic and sometimes I think that if all the women in the pews just said enough–let women be priests or else no money, it would be amazing how fast the ‘scholars’ would find new meaning in Jesus’ parables. Likewise, if women Democratic votes said “STOP” , we would have incredible power. (Go and read the replies to the OpenLeft posting, it is really scary.) If I was as smart as I think I am, I would know how to do one of those linky things.

  25. ———————————————————–

    Bill Clinton: No ‘Whining’ from Hillary

    April 17, 2008 5:19 PM

    ABC News’ Sarah Amos Reports: Former President Bill Clinton says he didn’t see his wife “whining” when she’s taken some tough political shots on the presidential campaign trail.

    “When I watched that debate last night, I got kinda tickled,” the former President said at an American Legion Hall event in St. Mary’s, Pennsylvania, “After the [debate], her opponents’, oh, the people working were saying, ‘Oh this is so negative, why are they doing this.’ Well they’ve been beatin’ up on her for 15 months. I didn’t hear her whining when he said she was untruthful in Iowa or called her the senator from Punjab.”

    “And, you know, they said some pretty rough things about me, too. But you know, this is a contact sport. If you don’t want to play, keep your uniform off,” Clinton told a loudly cheering crowd.

    Clinton asserted the focus on the campaign has largely been on the issues.

    “The truth is,” Clinton said, “this has been basically positive campaign on the issues, and on the records and on the experience. And the real differences should be on the issues.”

    Clinton was in high spirits on Thursday morning, the day after Sens. Clinton and Obama met for the 22nd time on a debate stage.

    “I don’t know if you saw that debate last night, but I did, and I thought she was great. She was great because she showed the strength and leadership and knowledge of the issues that is very important to the next president,” Clinton effused to his first crowd of the day in Erie, Pennsylvania.



  26. Early on in Obama’s campaign, he had a Gary Hart moment. He poked his head through the curtain surrounding the press bullpen. He said something along the lines of “come and get me.”

    I can’t find the link.

  27. rd: “There is something seriously wrong with the Obamaphiles.” Not to be disrespectful, but that’s the GD understatement of the year. As it stands now, what TheOne (TM) has done to enable these puerile beasts is wholly unforgivable.

  28. Riverdaughter, did you see this?


    That fucking little bastard.

    (OK, I’m pissed!)

  29. As long as this is an open thread, I’ll use it as such.

    Ya gotta see this – navigating by GPS, a driver takes his 12-foot charter bus under a 9-foot overpass, sending 24 of 26 occupants (a high school softball team) to the hospital.

    And yeah, I see it as an Obama campaign metaphor.

  30. Charles, I enjoyed your comments on your blog. The colors are great.

    I am curious about one thing, do you define yourself as elite because of where you live or lived? I ask because someone else on another board said Obama could not be elitist because of how he grew up which strikes me as not understanding what elitist means. It is an attitude not a zip code or a bank account.

    If you go the charlie rose site and watch an interview with warren buffetts wife Susan before she passed on, you will meet the most wonderful woman ever who was so generous and down to earth and loaded with a great zip code in california as well. Not to mention 200 million to give to the salvation army,

  31. My Unity Pony is still on back order…

  32. We have a serious problem in the Democratic party that is evidenced by the hatred toward Hillary and the malicious attacks directed at her supporters on many blogs, especially DKos. It seems to be a power struggle between the sexist boys clubs at those sites who hate the centrist DLC and want to capture the party for its more extreme wing. Unfortunately for them, the country is mostly moderate and will not submit to the control of these so-called progressives.

    As a loyal Democrat for many years, I will not vote for a person I believe to be unqualified and will either sit this out or vote for McCain as a protest. I don’t want the hateful wing of my party to be victorious. My hope is that we’ll have a Democratic congress that will act as a check on a Republican president. I never in my life thought it would come to this – I’ve never felt so alienated from my party.

  33. Shainzona, so BO is basically saying, Senator Clinton, FU, right? Who scratches their face in the middle of a speech using THAT finger?

    What a jerk. (sorry for the insult)

  34. Karen in Philadelphia said: As a loyal Democrat for many years, I will not vote for a person I believe to be unqualified and will either sit this out or vote for McCain as a protest. I don’t want the hateful wing of my party to be victorious. My hope is that we’ll have a Democratic congress that will act as a check on a Republican president. I never in my life thought it would come to this – I’ve never felt so alienated from my party.

    Oh Karen, I so share your sentiments. And even though I *still* wince at the prospect of pulling a lever for “McCain,” I’m feeling equally as disconnected from Senator Obama.

    Please, Sen. Clinton, pull off the upset of your life — for all of us!!!!!

  35. Arabella, I think that was when Obama said he wasn’t present when Wright ever made incendiary remarks (later made to just those remarks on youtube). Some people took it as a Gary Hart moment.

  36. WS: You could just see it in Barack’s face: Please, please, PLEASE don’t let there exist any video of me sitting through one of Wright’s wacked-out sermons.

    Because you know that’s EXACTLY what he’s thinking. LOL!

  37. A very funny cartoon about the sensibility of the Proprietor of the Site that May Not Be Named:


  38. Shainzona,

    That YouTube… my head just exploded. I replayed it for my partner and her head exploded.

    Says a lot about BO.

  39. I’m scared…

    (CNN)— An increasingly firm Howard Dean told CNN again Thursday that he needs superdelegates to say who they’re for – and “I need them to say who they’re for starting now.”


    we can let dean know how we feel at the link..

  40. briana – icky stuff.

  41. oops – posted too fast – I meant icky what Dean said – not you.

  42. That YouTube was definitely him giving her the finger. My, isn’t he clever. And people want to vote for someone that vile?

  43. I usually disagree with Ann Althouse, but her succinct analysis of the debate is spot on:

    1. It was good.

    2. Obama has always had a blandness about him. When you’re feeling good about him, you project your hopes onto that blandness and he seems wonderful. When you’re anxious about him, you think he’s effete and ennervated. He’s always the same. His face did look puffy and not as fresh as it once did. Deal with it. He’s a human being.

    3. Hillary bloomed with bright energy in the environment of ABC’s questions. She can reel out the policy when that’s what’s required. But cruel political fighting unleashes her super powers.

    No.3 is a very important distinction:

    When Obama is under pressure, he is immediately rattled. He clearly loses his composure, his hamming and hawing become truly unbearable. He becomes totally unable to think on his feet. For someone who has been lauded for his command of the english language, it’s surprising how soon he become unable to formulate a simple thought.

    OTOH, nothing, and I mean nothing could disturb Hillary’s equanimity. She is always very able to calmly and clearly make her argument and she has a terrific command of the facts on any subject. You truly have the feeling she could take that call at 3 am and be in control.

  44. FDR built a coalition which sustained the Democratic Party for 75 years. Everytime the party strays away from that coalition disaster strikes. Bill Clinton recognized this and attempted to rebuild that coalition but found resistance within his own party and a press that was hungry to bring him down. Obama has decided he doesn’t need the coalition and his campaign is evidence of that. He has continually played the race card knowing how divisive that could be, his comments in SF show how little regard he has for rural and poor (so initially vital to FDR) and his continual involvement with the radical left show an elitist tendency that FDR rejected. The fact that he can only garner 50% of the party inspite of the tremendous monetary advantage he has and the continual support of the msm has shown shows how wrong his strategy has been. Hillary has not run the strongest of campaigns but she has not collapsed is a testament of her strength as a campaigner. She has tried to build a bridge to the Obama wing of the party but has been met with derision and contempt from his supporters. I have been a life long actiivist in the party and their actions are driving me from the party. I am not so sure the divisions can be healed.

  45. Yes, that’s Barack Obama giving Hillary the Finger … confirmed by crowd reaction – and by Chicago Tribune political reporter Mark Silva, blogging at Trib’s DC Bureau blog The Swamp.

  46. DCDemocrat: Ohhhh, love the cartoon link.

  47. Before I read ronk’s link, I just have to say… giving Hillary the finger is classic! We used to do that when I was in highschool and then act like… what? I actually laughed when I saw that – talk about rattled! You can only come up with the disrespectful thing we did at 16?

    Of course, it is NOT presidential. That makes it funny in kind of a different way, but sadly, it will probably play well with those who just got a voters registration card.

  48. Man, even Richard Nixon never did that in public. I am completely disgusted.

    On another note, the party may already be damaged irrevocably by what Obama has done. I don’t mean that he gathered supporters. He absolutely has every right to run for President, vigorously. But he began to believe the hype and then he lost his focus. It became not about hope, but about him. People speak of him as this mirror–that’s the charismatic leader Max Weber described in the early 20th century. The more he embodies the collective will, the more the people lose their will. It’s like some kind of Dorian Gray thing.

  49. Moveon.org’s Lopsided Petition Campaign:

    Here’s the petition I’m called on to sign by moveon.org, an organization I previously supported until they came out with a members’ poll early this year in order to endorse a candidate. (I voted for Hillary. They endorsed Obama. I wrote to them at that time, protesting their insistence on calling for an early endorsement.)

    “Debate moderators abuse the public trust every time they ask trivial questions about gaffes and ‘gotchas’ that only political insiders care about. Enough with the distractions—ABC and other networks must focus on issues that affect people’s daily lives.”

    Instead of signing, I replied to moveon.org with the following note:

    Absolutely not!!!!!! No I won’t sign. For the first time, Obama wasn’t given a pass. I watched the same thing you and the other pundits watched. Hillary had clear plans with specifics re: Iraq, Iran, crime, the economy, greening, etc. What were you, the biased media, and other messiah hopefuls watching? Poor Obama didn’t know what to do, because he can speak AT the public, and ATTACK Hillary, but can’t think extemporaneously or speak clearly to any plan, policy or issue. Unfortunately, as a lifelong Dem, previously loyal moveon.org member, I see that you’re so wrong and so blind about your early endorsement of Obama, that you can’t even see that he’s not qualified, not ready, nor vetted, nor competent to be President of the US.

    ABC moderators asked relevant questions that went to character. Just because Obama finally got pegged on what Hillary’s been going through over the last year, eight years, and fifteen years. Gee, moveon.org didn’t mind when the &*?@ was slung at Hillary. You weren’t sick and tired of it then. You didn’t holler when Obama spewed back at Hillary last week for showing the contents of his mind in the form of gossip about others. That’s new politics? Moveon.org is new politics? I used to think so about the latter, but no longer, as your outrage is uneven and only applies to when “your” candidate is wounded based on his OWN POOR LIFE CHOICES. GIVE ME A BREAK!

    Okay, all fall in line. Hell, no, I won’t sign!

    I’ve posted my letter above and their petition letter in full, complete with their references on my blog: http://ladyboomernyc.wordpress.com. I’m one of those who’ve stayed on the moveon.org mailing list in order to keep informed of their goings on. Geez!

    HELL NO, I WON’T SIGN! Good idea to write to ABC with compliments. That will be a first!

  50. Oh, the next thing I thought about the finger thing, can you imagine the president doing that while talking about another world leader who is annoying in some way? And then, congress giggles and passes notes to eachother!

  51. I have had the middle finger wagged at me enough times that I can honestly say that definitely was Obama “flipping the bird”. The same thing that his “change” message will execute come November is he is the nominee.

  52. You guys are the greatest! Now I’m all caught up. That article in the Boston Globe was great. I’m glad some of the MA women are giving Kerry and Kennedy hell. I have already written to both of them and told them they will never get my vote again unless MI and FL are counted. No replies, as usual.

    I saw that video of Obama giving Hillary the finger at Taylor Marsh. Honestly, does he really think that makes him look presidential? The guy is losing it. He’s falling apart before our eyes. How can Howard Dean not notice it?

    I got that e-mail from Chris Bowers too. I wrote back and told him that since he never called for action against MSNBC for their treatment of Hillary, I’m not going to help him in his campaign against ABC. If he and the other so-called liberal bloggers think they can elect Obama without support from half the party, good luck to them. They won’t get any help from me.

  53. In the longer clip, Barry starts with a very unnatural pinkie-to-the-face gesture … maybe debating himself whether or when to flip her the big one.

  54. OT, I’m watching The Daily Show and Stewart is doing a whole crapload about how much the debate sucked wind with lame, gotcha questions but, hold on ….

    He just redeemed himself by roasting Barry on his inept answers to the substantive questions.

  55. I’m voting for Hillary regardless. If the better candidate is shafted
    because she’s a woman, this part of the women’s constituency of
    the Democratic Pary is voting for the only woman to have had a
    real chance to be President. I’m writing her name in. I could not
    vote for someone with Obama’s history–he makes Republicans
    look good. Then it is goodbye Dems. I’m an Independent. I much
    prefer McCain as a person, and as a political figure, to Obama,
    but why are we being denied the best potential president of my
    lifetime? How long before a woman can run on a level playing field?
    If not Hillary, who? Think about the amount of work done by women
    in the world. Just because women can do it, it is devalued.

    All of us have to admire Hillary for staying in there, for standing up
    to the hatred (and the U.S. is one of the best environments for women).
    Her brilliance and command of policy makes it possible for other women
    –someday–to apply for the job on an equal playing field.

  56. Well, I’ve been leaning towards Hillary for some time, a little suspicious of the super fast bloggers and posters negative response to anything Hillary Clinton has accomplished and even what Bill Clinton has accomplished. I don’t get that. How many dozen Republican congress people need to molest boys or get caught having sex in public rest rooms before that becomes worse than anything Hillary could have done? I had a talk with some friends the other day, and the four of them have been living an Obama lifestyle almost. It’s like saying that you support Obama gives you an in with the hip people who sneer and look down at the little uncool people of the world. Finally, one of my oldest girlfriends got tired of my asking why sexism and all the nasty things they and others were saying about a fellow Democrat were okay. She said, it’s not.

    So why was she supporting Obama? The response kind of shocked me.” Because she started the war in Iraq” No more discussion about how hard giving Bush authority to even deal with Iraq let alone start a big war – I mean Condi Rice did say there were nuclear warheads pointed at the US, no? – ir that she has been an incredible Democrat for decades. She started the war in Iraq. That was now the only energy she wanted to put into the decision. Despite her support for Hillary on almost every other thing she has done (and in our neighborhood in the city, she has done a lot). People have busy lives. I guess they don’t want to be taxed. There is also this strange impression that Obama has been an environmental leader and super progressive leader in Chicago.

    I don’t know where the Hillary hating comes from. Although I love my friends a lot, I don’t think they understand that this is bigger than having a fit if their choice for President is not elected. Mostly I sense that they just want it to be over, so they can continue to attack Bush and Cheney. We’re running against not just McCain but a whole lot of very, very nasty Republicans who are waiting to rip Obama to shreds. They think that their set of friends’ beliefs will somehow insulate them against the harsh realities that a McCain Presidency would bring. Yet instead of supporting Obama in a positive way, they have joined the attack Hillary bandwagon. I just don’t get that at all. My Latino friends say they will never vote for Obama. My Black friends say they just want to se a Black man nominated – yet not one of them has anything but disgust and despair over the racist tactics they have seen the Obama camp use. A lot of younger people grew up with some really nasty woman and gay hating, cop killing and white bashing rap music. I think they have internailized it. Thank God for Kanye West, whoever he is supporting.

  57. RD? Well…ummmmmmmmmm
    there was this:
    & this scroll down to see
    (there was more but I’ll have to refind it) It was your old pal, almost gasiming…somewhat…yikes, what an …
    yikes, girlfriend……….seriously! yuk!

  58. Riverdaughter.. do you see that you perpetuate the very thing your pointing out? You say “Obamaphiles” are saying “die die die” and that they’ve gone “too far”.

    You’re delivering the same message that you’re criticizing.

    I’m an Obama supporter living in New York State. I was a Biden supporter – but I got over it. I have my reasons for supporting Obama and I’ll just leave it at that.

    From what I can tell from my circle of friends is that we all might support Clinton or Obama and have our disagreements of who we think would be best be suited for President. But make no mistake…while we differ in opinion on that issue..

    we ALL know who we DON’T want to be President.

    I have faith that after this is over the party will come together.. to take a page from Bill Maher.. we are voting for the leader of our country. This should be a long drawn out process.. afterall it takes more time to find out who’s going to be the next American Idol.

    all the party needs is a little more optimism.

  59. Son of Bill Brasky: You are an Obamaphile. I am a Clintonista. It’s a short cut. I think there are other, less flattering terms for both of us.
    As for perpetuating a stereotype, I would like to point out to you that I was run off of DailyKos for being a Clinton supporter. How do you feel about that?

  60. I’m a Canadian and unlike Rich L. IMHO I feel that Obama is the one who is overly ambitious and he’s the one putting himself over country (not to mention the Democratic party).
    He may very well end up as the next prez but he’s shown very little inclination to fight for Democratic ideals and very little of the skills required to actually run the country.
    If Senator Clinton manages to win the nom and the presidency, I can’t wait to cheer for Madame President on her first official visit to Canada.

  61. This seventh-generation Democrat won’t “come together” to support a candidate whose backers have tried to evict fully half of the Democratic Party from its nominating process. And who are currently standing and cheering for a candidate who’s trying his dead level best to steal this election by refusing to allow millions in two vital-for-Democrats states to vote in the primary.

    By any other name, it’s still disenfranchisement. I will never give one penny to Obama; I won’t campaign for him; and I won’t vote for him. If he gets the nomination without a fair resolution in FL/MI, , I’ll write in Hillary, and devote my time and money to trying to help Democrats in states like Virginia and Minnesota keep control of Congress.

    I’ll also go to Denver to picket the treatment of my fellow Democrats in Michigan and Florida, and will join whatever movement exists to remove Howard Dean as the head of the DNC.

    I think the Obama supporters are drastically – drastically – underestimating the level of anger among women in particular but among Hillary supporters in general. If you think this problem is just going to go away? Guess again.

  62. Maybe I can make peace w/ Obama & his supporters in 2012, but not this election cycle. I’m voting for Hillary no matter what in November. If they’re smart, the Obamatrons will think ahead to 2012. They’ve already lost many of us this cycle. There is simply no way I will ever vote Obama in November, no matter how much Hillary might ask me to.

  63. I’m another Canadian who likes Hilary. I originally preferred Edwards, and I think helped push her platform in a positive way.

    Outside of the great rhetoric, Obama doens’t seem to own the few details he offers. I didn’t like the marginal character stuff in any of the debates, but Hilary just shines every time on policy.

    All this talk about post-partisan scares me. After 8 years of Bush/Cheney I’d want a fighter for my values, and someone with real plan for change, not someone more interested in getting along then getting things done; especially fro folks who’ve fallen the furthest behind.

    It’s amazing, since Sen. Clinton was re-elected to the Senate all the q’s from the pundits and media were either whether she could overcome the baggage or if a woman could be seen as tough enough to be President. The media, well the overtly Obama supporters are now outraged at how questions of character and toughness shouldn’t be looked at. If they are tests Hilary had to pass, why does Obama not have to address them?

    PS. For what it’s worth I read the Cdn embassy memo about Goolsbee and NAFTA. As a Canadian I was troubled by a couple of things. As Obama’s senior economic advisor, with the economy being such a key issue for voters, I’de expect the guy to know Canada and the US have one of the largest trading relationships in the world. I’d also expect him to know we were the US’s largest source of foreign oil . According to the memo he knew neither. However he also offered that Canada need not worry, our oil was not viewed as foreign; sorry I’m not comforted.

    Wouldn’t you expect the guy who wants to renegotiate NAFTA would have top economic advisor who new more.

    I for one am happy to add tougher labour and environmental standards, I just don’t think post-partisanship will deliver it.

  64. hell will freeze over before i vote for obama. frankly i think if he gets the nomination and the wh, there won’t be a democratic party left in four years. if he gets the nomination, he will have the democratic party’s axx handed to us on a plate. heck of a job, barry.

  65. Hooboy…never, ever thought it would come to this. Here’s what I posted today at TL when Gore’s name came up in a thread:

    I hope Hil and Bill are talking to Al and the DLC about the nuclear option if push comes to shove…that is, if it looks like Obama will actually get the votes for the nomination.
    Strikes me that’s the only way to save the Party and elect a Democratic president after this incredibly toxic campaign where the electability of both Obama and Clinton are now in doubt.

    Hard to believe but I do think…perhaps only Gore can save us.


    Works for me.

  66. RonK….Riverdaughter…katie et al…

    If anyone has a better notion of how we keep from repeating ’68…then ’72, ’76, ’80 ad nauseam, I’d sure like to hear it.

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